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1Powerslave
09-04-2009, 11:13 AM
Alviarin turning to the Light

Alviarin doesn't like her place in the world right now. She is hardly living the life of an esteemed woman of power. Instead she is running around the Tower like a mouse and being beaten every day, and loathed by her own Ajah. She feels that her life is threatened by Mesaana because she witnessed her humiliation. And the Mark that Shaidar Haran laid on her terrifies her and at the same time inducing hate. Hate towards the Great Lord (and Shaidar Haran).

Alviarin cries a lot and is under enormous pressure, from the reasons mentioned above. People under pressure tend to make illogical decisions, and unexpected ones. She wouldn't be the first to turn from the Shadow, or to sell out the Shadow. And it doesn't seem a stretch to me any more.

The mark she got from Shaidar Haran is upsetting her to the point that can't stop thinking about it. In her POV she is constantly fingering her forehead where the mark is, though it is not visible.

"On the outside she displayed absolute composure, but within was a swirling tangle of mortification and hatred and very near gibbering terror." -- p 62, KoD
We know from Egwene's chapter that infact Alviarin shows very little of composure. The hatred is towards those who marked her - The Great Lord/Shaidar Haran. It is the gibbering terror part that still keeps her in line, a little.

She is actively seeking to get her out of her situation. Specifically she is doing these things:

1.
She is trying to find some threat to the BA so that she would get/keep the Great Lord's protection. See quote below.

2.
She is desperately trying to get Egwene to escape with her. As to why, one can speculate. Maybe she wants to get out of the Tower to escape the shame, the beatings, etc. And maybe she thinks a way out is to capture Egwene and use her to placate the Great Lord for leaving her post. Or something to bargain with.
It seems a silly hope. But it testifies to Alviarin's general state right now.

3.
She is contemplating killing Mesaana.

"Every night she dreamed of killing Mesaana, often daydreamed of how to manage it successfully, yet that must wait on finding her without the woman knowing herself found."
Killing Mesaana might end one threat to her life. But it still might not be wise to do so without permission. Were she found out, it might cost her. Chosen are power players, and there is precious few of them around.

4.
She is looking to find some way to break her BA oaths:

"The question was, had she panicked on receiving her summons to the Supreme Council, or was there something more? Something more, Alviarin decided. Talene had looked to Yukiri and Doesine as though seeking... guidance, perhaps. She was sure she had not imagined it. Could she have? A very small seed of hope. There must be something more. She needed a threat to the Black, or the Great Lord would withdraw his protection." -- KoD prologue
And next page:
"Talene must be found and brought back, of course. For punishment and execution, if she had simply panicked, and if she had not, if she had somehow found a way to betray her oaths... Alviarin clung to that hope while she commanded a close watch put on Yukiri and Doesine."
The only way we know of for BA to break free from the oaths that bind them is what the BA hunters have been doing. So we know there is a way for Alviarin to be free from her normal oaths to the Great Lord, physically at least. And we also know that the plot is drawing Alviarin very close to that liberation or that knowledge.

---


The Mark:

What the mark actually does is an unknown. It might be it does nothing really physically, and is only meant to cause Alviarin to fear more, inorder to keep her in line. If that is all it does it might be a huge mistake, since it set Alviarin on her current path.


Some part of Alviarin is still Light:

"Break the Tower from within, she had been ordered. Plant discord and chaos in every corner of the Tower. Part of her had felt pain at that command, a part of her still did, yet her greater loyalty was to the Great Lord. Elaida herself had made the first break in the Tower, but she had shattered half of it past mending.
Abrubtly she realized that she was touching her forehead again and snatched her hand down."
How large is the part of Alviarin that feels pain when the Tower is broken? The part of her that is Light.
Her loyalty towards the Great Lords certainly is greater at the moment. But it got a serious stab when she was marked, and set in motion points 1 through 4 listed above.

We have previous examples of major players for the Shadow that doesn't at ALL like ties that bind, even from their master The Great Lord. Shaidar Haran searches for ways to break his ties to Shayol Ghul. Several male Chosen disliked to say the least their necessary protection from the taint. A dependancy towards the Great Lord that they much rather would live without. A control he had over them, as some female Chosen pointed out at some point.


If she were to turn to the Light:

Alviarin has two incredibly devastating bargaining chips were she to go back to the Light. Her position as the head of the BA could make a purge of the BA much faster and cleaner than it would otherwise happen. She could deliver Mesaana to Light. And no one is so far into the Shadow that they can't go back to the Light.

Alviarin might not be completely pardoned for her crimes. She might not survive long, cause of Shadow assassination, were she to turn. But she also know that she would go down in history as a huge player. Whereas to die in a Shadow power struggle wouldn't leave a mark at all.

Of course she fears being brought kicking and screaming to Shayol Ghul, but she is also close to breaking in her current situation.

Alviarin is a very dangerous woman to both the Light and the Shadow at this moment. She could do tremendous damage to both if she is desperate enough to risk it. It will be interesting to see what she does.

Davian93
09-04-2009, 11:18 AM
Think of the DO's mark as equivalent to the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. There is no going back from the Mark. Even if she wanted to come to the Light, I doubt she would be able to do so without being killed.

It would be a very interesting swan dive onto a concrete pad if she were to try it though.

GonzoTheGreat
09-04-2009, 11:19 AM
Isn't she more likely to turn to Padan Fain? The two have met already, and they would make a wonderful couple.

Enigma
09-04-2009, 11:23 AM
I believe RJ said that the mark was a bit like a tattoo an owner might give their dog giving the ownwer same or details. It markes her so that any shadowspawn know to leave her alone. I don't think its anything more.

I don't doubt Alviarin is getting a bit unhinged but I doubt if she will turn. She fears the Shadow too much and even now she still wants power and to be in charge. She has to know that the only game in town is the Shadow. Even if she did turn she would have to tell them she was head of the BA to explain why she is valuable enough to keep alive and once she reveals that no one will ever trust her or let her anywhere near power again.

Perhaps she might be able to investigate new career opportunities. I hear a Seanchan recruiting agent might be visiting the tower shortly :D

FelixPax
09-04-2009, 03:19 PM
Think of the DO's mark as equivalent to the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. There is no going back from the Mark. Even if she wanted to come to the Light, I doubt she would be able to do so without being killed.

It would be a very interesting swan dive onto a concrete pad if she were to try it though.

Liandrin is more likely abandon the Shadow than Alviarin is to. Liandrin has almost nothing to lose, whereas Alviarin has almost everything to lose if the forces of Light found her position out.

I can imagine what the other former Black Ajah of low status, would feel toward the leadership of the B.A. after the fact. Atuan, Marris, Karale, Talene, Joiya all repented their sins & embraced the light once more found out. Yet I doubt they'd go lightly on the B.A. leadership one bit, after being "Forced into a Circle against their Will"- it's a type of Compulsion.

the silent speaker
09-04-2009, 04:06 PM
I disagree with some of your analysis. First, I don't think she was trying to get Egwene to escape with her -- I think she saw Egwene as someone who had had a taste of power on the highest levels and then was abruptly bumped down to novice, and hence a likely prospect for a new Black Ajah recruit. I read her as sounding Egwene out for that, rather than some fanciful escape plan.

As for the threat she was looking for, that's more of a cost-justification thing. THere doesn't have to be any real danger, as long as she can persuade the higher-ups that they need to keep supporting her as she 'roots it out'. She's desperately hoping to keep from getting steamrolled by forces beyond her weight class, but she has no intention of threatening the Black with any dangers she finds; quite the opposite.

As regards killing Mesaana, Darkfriends routinely kill each other. It shows who's more macho. The Dark One approves and indeed encourages this, even amid the ranks of the Chosen as long as he could still get more. If Alviarin pulled that off, Mesaana would be brought back because she's not a renewable resource anymore otherwise, but Alviarin would get a pretty pony from Shayol Ghul for her dastardy.

Finally, I don't see the part of her regretting tearing apart the Tower as "still Light" so much as "still Aes Sedai". She's part of a venerable institution, and very tied to it on a deep emotional level for reasons that are not directly impacted by her allegiance on a Light-Shadow axis. Of course it will be a wrench to deliberately smash something she loves.

Incidentally, I think Alviarin is evil and a goner, but Mesaana will actually turn to the Light before the last page of AMOL. No one so far in &c.

Davian93
09-04-2009, 05:40 PM
I think it would be hilarioius if either A: she's collared by the Seanchan and taken back to Ebou Dar or B: killed randomly in the attack and nothing more is made of it.

Terez
09-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Alviarin was probably ordered to help Egwene escape as soon as she was captured:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens

“They’re determined to hold on?” Mesaana murmured, half under her breath. She nodded. “Good. Good. Then everything is proceeding according to plan. I had been thinking I would need to stage some sort of ’rescue,’ but perhaps I can wait until Elaida has broken her. Her return should create even more confusion, then. You need to sow more dissension, Aran’gar. Before I’m done, I want these so-called Aes Sedai hating each other in their blood.” Or perhaps Alviarin simply took the initiative, with the same reasoning as Mesaana - it is not in the Shadow's best interest for the rebellion to fall apart.

Ishara
09-04-2009, 09:19 PM
1PS, it is so awesome to see you back pal!

I like the analysis, I'm just not sure I agree with it entirely. I feel as if you're certainly right about one thing though: Alviarhin is dangerous to both sides right now. If she was identified by the AS Seekers (do we have a name for them yet?) before she manages to get one or more of them alone, they could conceivably turn her with Questioning or simply fear (although I have to admit to thinking that nothing Yukiri can dish out is worse than Shaidar Haran).

Frankly, she's a liability to the Dark right now, in my opinion. You're right that she's too desperate, too scared, to unhinged. It makes her more dangerous, not less. And she clearly knows too much about the Huntresses.

Oh, how wish the prologue is about her!

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2009, 02:46 AM
1PS, it is so awesome to see you back pal!Yeah, I should've thought of that. Welcome back, ips.

(do we have a name for them yet?)I think there is one, but I can't remember what it is at the moment. Just in case there isn't, I would make the following suggestion:
Liandrin's group is known as the Keystone Koven. So the ones that hunt them should be the Keystone Koven Cops.

Terez
09-05-2009, 02:49 AM
We generally just call them the Black Ajah hunters.

1Powerslave
09-05-2009, 08:36 AM
As regards killing Mesaana, Darkfriends routinely kill each other. It shows who's more macho. The Dark One approves and indeed encourages this, even amid the ranks of the Chosen as long as he could still get more. If Alviarin pulled that off, Mesaana would be brought back because she's not a renewable resource anymore otherwise, but Alviarin would get a pretty pony from Shayol Ghul for her dastardy.
That was the case in the AoL at least. I don't got the quotes, but I've gotten the feeling that it is not OK for the Chosen to kill each other off right now, in quests for more power and position. And that Alviarin killing off a far more capable force in service of the Shadow than she will not be looked kindly upon.
I don't think the recycling of channelers is an easy or fast process. The DO still has limited power in the world.

Finally, I don't see the part of her regretting tearing apart the Tower as "still Light" so much as "still Aes Sedai". She's part of a venerable institution, and very tied to it on a deep emotional level for reasons that are not directly impacted by her allegiance on a Light-Shadow axis. Of course it will be a wrench to deliberately smash something she loves.Exactly, and fact is that the Light wants to keep this love of hers whole, and the Shadow wants to take it apart at the moment.

1Powerslave
09-05-2009, 08:40 AM
I think it would be hilarioius if either A: she's collared by the Seanchan and taken back to Ebou Dar or B: killed randomly in the attack and nothing more is made of it.Alviarin getting collared. That to me seems like it's been done already with Galina. I think Alviarin's plot will continue the collision course with either Mesaana or the BA-hunters or both. And I wouldn't find the anticlimax of either A or B hilarious, I'd be mad! :)

1Powerslave
09-05-2009, 08:57 AM
I believe RJ said that the mark was a bit like a tattoo an owner might give their dog giving the ownwer same or details. It markes her so that any shadowspawn know to leave her alone. I don't think its anything more.

I don't doubt Alviarin is getting a bit unhinged but I doubt if she will turn. She fears the Shadow too much and even now she still wants power and to be in charge. She has to know that the only game in town is the Shadow. Even if she did turn she would have to tell them she was head of the BA to explain why she is valuable enough to keep alive and once she reveals that no one will ever trust her or let her anywhere near power again.
I agree the Mark is probably nothing big, as in an elaborate tracking device, or seeing through her eyes, or an instant killer should she go Light.

Sure, Alviarin's fear is great now. She knows in great detail some of the things that can happen to her. She also is very aware of what might get her killed through her experience as BA Head. So she is quite aware of the thin line she is walking, with a Chosen in her lap, and all other dangers present to her. And if that thin line seems impossible to walk, that when you must do something about it cause you have no hope of power and glory in death.
If she turned to the Shadow for power and glory she'll turn to the Light to survive.

1Powerslave
09-05-2009, 09:08 AM
1PS, it is so awesome to see you back pal!Thanks. :)

I like the analysis, I'm just not sure I agree with it entirely. I feel as if you're certainly right about one thing though: Alviarhin is dangerous to both sides right now. If she was identified by the AS Seekers (do we have a name for them yet?) before she manages to get one or more of them alone, they could conceivably turn her with Questioning or simply fear (although I have to admit to thinking that nothing Yukiri can dish out is worse than Shaidar Haran).Yukiri doesn't have to be badder than Shaidar Haran when she is there and he is not. Besides, Yukiri and Co is Alviarin's hope. The hope came from the possibility that Talene have escaped her oaths.

[qutoe]Frankly, she's a liability to the Dark right now, in my opinion. You're right that she's too desperate, too scared, to unhinged. It makes her more dangerous, not less. And she clearly knows too much about the Huntresses.[/quote]The Mark might have been in answer to the beatings she took. To keep her in line. But it might have done more damage than good.

Oh, how wish the prologue is about her!The Tower plot is the most exciting one right now IMO.

1Powerslave
09-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Alviarin was probably ordered to help Egwene escape as soon as she was captured:

Or perhaps Alviarin simply took the initiative, with the same reasoning as Mesaana - it is not in the Shadow's best interest for the rebellion to fall apart.Yeah, that would make sense as well. :)

Enigma
09-06-2009, 07:59 AM
There is one problem with Alviarin being ordered to help Egwene escape. Up until recently she was getting all her orders from Messama (you will serve only me, not Demandred not ...) At the Forsaken case conference where they talked about Egwene's capture Messama was not bothered about it nearly as much as the forsaken who was with the rebels.

I'm not sure of the time line but did Alviarin have her break with Mesaama before or after she met Egwene. Obviously she is probably now getting her orders from SH or someone else.

Terez
09-06-2009, 08:34 AM
She is wary of facing Mesaana more often than is strictly necessary, but there is nothing to indicate that she is taking orders from anyone else. I don't think Shaidar Haran would stoop so low as to hand out orders to Third Agers. But there's also nothing to indicate that she has seen Mesaana since the meeting with Shaidar Haran, which is why I mentioned that Alviarin might have taken the initiative. According to the Chronology, Alviarin was marked some time before Egwene was captured.

Enigma
09-06-2009, 08:38 AM
I suppose we should not forget that Alviarian is pissed at Elaida and would like her gone otherwise she is never going to stop the morning beatings.

Even without orders she might think Egwene is someone she can use against Elaida. Perhaps help her escapte and topple Elaida and out of gratitude and for for her support make her keeper or at least a close advisor. Then she is back to wispering into the ear of the leader.

Terez
09-06-2009, 09:03 AM
I don't think that, under her current orders from Shaidar Haran, that she would consider leaving the Tower - her orders are to find those who threaten the Black Ajah there.

btw - earlier I meant that I don't see Shaidar Haran handing out orders to Alviarin on a regular basis. Obviously he's given her orders once; I just don't think he will concern himself with the small details of the Black Ajah business.

Enigma
09-07-2009, 05:05 AM
btw - earlier I meant that I don't see Shaidar Haran handing out orders to Alviarin on a regular basis. Obviously he's given her orders once; I just don't think he will concern himself with the small details of the Black Ajah business.

Normally I would agree with you. SH seems to work with the top level management i.e. the forsaken and leaves it up to them to keep their minions in line. Alviarin may be the exception in this case because of what she has suggested, i.e. a threat to the BA as a whole. Its more akin to the CEO of a large company having someone from middle management reporting directly to him on a specific project.

I doubt he will be along every day to have a chat with her but I would expect that he will show up now and again to get status reports.