Green Gas: Too many green beans?

[JSUCamel]

Sapphire Energy Unveils 91 Octane Green Gasoline From Algae

Sapphire Energy Has announced that they have produced renewable 91 octane gasoline that conforms to ASTM certification, made from a breakthrough process that produces crude oil directly from sunlight, CO2 and photosynthetic microorganisms, beginning with algae.

“Sapphire’s goal is to be the world’s leading producer of renewable petrochemical products,” said CEO and co-founder Jason Pyle, speaking from the influential Simmons Alternative Energy Conference. “Our goal is to produce a renewable fuel without the downsides of current biofuel approaches.

“Sapphire Energy was founded on the belief that the only way to cure our dependence on foreign oil and end our flirtation with ethanol and biodiesel is through radical new thinking and a commitment to new technologies.”

The end result — high-value hydrocarbons chemically identical to those in gasoline — will be entirely compatible with the current energy infrastructure from cars to refineries and pipelines.

Not biodiesel, not ethanol. And no crops or farm land required.

The Sapphire platform offers vast advantages – scientific, economic and social – over traditional biofuel approaches.

Company scientists have built a platform that uses sunlight, CO2, photosynthetic microorganisms and non-arable land to produce carbon-neutral alternatives to petrochemical-based processes and products. First up: renewable gasoline. Critically important, in light of recent studies that prove the inefficiencies and costs of crop-based biofuels, there is no ‘food vs. fuel’ tradeoff. The process is not dependent on food crops or valuable farmland, and is highly water efficient. “It’s hard not to get excited about algae’s potential,” said Paul Dickerson, chief operating officer of the Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy “Its basic requirements are few: CO2, sun, and water. Algae can flourish in non-arable land or in dirty water, and when it does flourish, its potential oil yield per acre is unmatched by any other terrestrial feedstock.”

Scalability key to success

Sapphire’s scalable production facilities can grow easily and economically because production is modular, transportable, and fueled by sunlight – not constrained by land, crops, or other natural resources.

“Any company or fuel that hopes to solve the biofuel conundrum must be economically scalable – and that requires conforming to the existing refining distribution and fleet infrastructure,” said Brian Goodall, Sapphire’s new vice president of downstream technology. Goodall led the team responsible for the highly visible, first-ever Virgin Atlantic “green” 747 flight earlier this year. In addition to a three-decade career in the petrochemical industry, he is a corporate inductee at the National Inventors Hall of Fame.

Domestic production a matter of national security, economic growth

A new domestic energy platform based on sunlight and CO2 has the economic potential to herald a tectonic market shift as well as make the country more secure. Last year, the nation imported over $200 billion of foreign oil, and, with oil prices reaching record heights every week, that number is expected to increase dramatically. Protecting these strategic overseas interests is an increasingly expensive proposition.

“It is imperative, both economically and for national security reasons, that American companies figure out ways to produce oil here at home,” said Sapphire co-founder Kristina Burow of ARCH Venture Partners, the company’s founding investor. “Imagine if even a portion of the $200 billion we spend on foreign crude stayed here: The payoff in new jobs, and domestic economic growth would be huge.”

Developments require new industrial category: Green Crude Production

In fact, Sapphire’s processes and science are so radical, the company is at the forefront of an entirely new industrial category called ‘Green Crude Production.’ Products and processes in this category differ significantly from other forms of biofuel because they are made solely from photosynthetic microorganisms, sunlight and CO2; do not result in biodiesel or ethanol; enhance and replace petroleum-based products; are carbon neutral and renewable; and don’t require any food crop or agricultural land.

The final products meet ASTM standards and are completely compatible with the existing petroleum infrastructure, from refinement through distribution and the retail supply chain

[Sei'taer]

Hell yeah...lets get producing!

[caladanbrood]

I see a few problems... the main one being that the cost of this is likely to be astronomical.

[Sei'taer]

Probably, but it will drive down the price of other fuels...and even a cent or two would make me happy at this point.

[Terez]

I see a few problems... the main one being that the cost of this is likely to be astronomical. It would be if it were something that the government was expected to provide for, but there are going to be a lot of entrepeneurs out there with capital that are going to be salivating to invest in it. Existing fuel companies would be wise to invest in it. :) Eventually the price will go down - hopefully back to where it was a few years ago. The current prices are a disaster...

Camel's article didn't mention go much into it, but the LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-fi-greencrude29-2008may29,0,7208016.story) and the project's website (http://www.greencrudeproduction.com/) make it clear that this fuel would be produced using CO2 that would have been released into the atmostphere, thereby reducing emissions, and the fuel itself would not emit so many pollutants as the fuel we use now, reducing emissions even further. If this technology pans out, and truly does replace our current fuel, it will be a huge step toward reducing current emissions to an acceptable level.

Back to the investing I was talking about earlier...there's a huge amount of pressure on fuel companies already to invest in revolutionary technology, partly because of the crisis in fuel prices, and partly because of environmental concerns (a much smaller part of the pressure being peak oil concerns). Exxon is one of the few out there that doesn't invest a humongous chunk of change already.

[JSUCamel]

Well, thing is that algae is dirt cheap to produce. It just needs water, CO2 and sunlight. The expensive thing is going to be distribution and getting the infrastructure there to deal with the demand.

To be honest, this is going to be the biggest obstacle in ANY alternative energy solution. Electric cars were touted awhile back as cutting down pollution -- but they never really took off, because the infrastructure for charging stations was too expensive. Same thing for the other types of alternative uses for car fuels.

But if the government will help establish the infrastructure, then any of the solutions that have been previously discussed can be implemented. Unfortunately, that won't happen til someone gives the oil companies the finger.

If I were the oil companies, I'd be the ones jumping the gun on this and producing this algae oil, so that I'd still be in the running once the American public finally does make the switch. I'm wondering if it's kind of like the HD-DVD/Blue Ray deal, and they're just waiting to see which alternative fuel source the American people adopt before they jump on the bandwagon.

[Sei'taer]

I guess I'm not understanding Camel. The article says:

The end result — high-value hydrocarbons chemically identical to those in gasoline — will be entirely compatible with the current energy infrastructure from cars to refineries and pipelines.

Which tells me that it can be processed in the same refineries, refined the same ways, use the same additives, etc. They won't need to change the infrastructure at all. it says it is compatible with all of it. I would say we still need to build more refineries to get production up to meet demand. The problem I see with it is...The oil companies own the refineries. Either they are going to have to join in (which, considering the profits to be made, I would bet you all the money in my wallet they are already into it), or they are going to have to sell those refineries to the new companies. I think this is great and I am really hoping it works. Then all the feel goodies can be happy they are saving the world and I can still drive my loud piped gas guzzler and have a good time.

edit: white beans give me gas, not green beans...as far as green goes, lets just say that broccoli has been outlawed in my house.

[Terez]

Now you sound like George H.W., Taer. :p

[Weird Harold]

Camel's article didn't mention go much into it, but the LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-fi-greencrude29-2008may29,0,7208016.story) and the project's website (http://www.greencrudeproduction.com/) make it clear that this fuel would be produced using CO2 that would have been released into the atmosphere, thereby reducing emissions, and the fuel itself would not emit so many pollutants as the fuel we use now, reducing emissions even further. If this technology pans out, and truly does replace our current fuel, it will be a huge step toward reducing current emissions to an acceptable level.

Sapphire Energy Corp set off my bovine feces detector.

I've done a lot of reading on alternative feedstocks for biofuels, and this claim of "the equivalent of light sweet crude" is entirely possible, but NOT without more happening than simply growing algae in tubes on "CO2,Water and Sunlight" and the articles and greencrudeproduction.com really doesn't say a gosh-darned thing about how they've managed this "miraculaous" product that "will save the planet." :rolleyes:

For a contrast, google up GreenFuels Corp and their proof of concept project in cooperation with Arizona Power Company's Redhawk power plant. They don't claim to be able to grow enough algae to completely replace fossil fuels, but they're fairly upfront about their "bioreactor" technology and what they expect to be able to produce from the algae they produce,

Also, Check out the Thermal Conversion Process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization) whichcan turn turky guts and old soda bottles into "Synthetic Crude Oil" which can be refined into just about anything "Light Sweet Crude" can be.

If "Sapphire Energy" were to brag about how they've combined GreenFuels' bioreactor technology or something similar with CWT's TCP process toproduce their wonder product, I'd be right up front in the cheering section, but all of the news stories talk about how much money they've raised and what a wonderful investment they would be and there's not one single shred of information on how their process works or how quickly they can scale it up -- unlike the two related processes and companies who are up front about the technology and problems as well as the promise.

[Yuri33]

My first reaction to reading about this algae fuel was that this might create a nitrogen\ammonia problem.

Plus, I'm wondering how you can get all this wonderful algae to grow and yet somehow keep out those greedy little bacteria that want to break down all those delicious hydrocarbons.

Finally, while they claim they can grow this stuff anywhere, I still remember reading about the fundamental problem with solar panels. Taking away all the issues associated with manufacturing all those panels, I believe it was calculated that you would need to cover and area approximately the size of Colorado to provide enough energy to supply the US. I think the same area problem could apply here as well.

I remain skeptical.

[Weird Harold]

My first reaction to reading about this algae fuel was that this might create a nitrogen\ammonia problem.

Plus, I'm wondering how you can get all this wonderful algae to grow and yet somehow keep out those greedy little bacteria that want to break down all those delicious hydrocarbons.

Finally, while they claim they can grow this stuff anywhere, I still remember reading about the fundamental problem with solar panels. Taking away all the issues associated with manufacturing all those panels, I believe it was calculated that you would need to cover and area approximately the size of Colorado to provide enough energy to supply the US. I think the same area problem could apply here as well.

I remain skeptical.
The one clear hint to Sapphire Energy's technology is similar to Greefuels' bioreactors -- they're closed systems so there is little chance of contamination.

Also, with the closed systems, there's very little nitrogen involved in the process, and should not be any real ammonia problem.

The Area problem is a factor in algae production. The closed system solves that problem -- or at least pushes it back a coupl of orders of magnitude.

The problem with growing algae has always been that only the top inch or two of an open pond lagae farm can grow any algae because the algae growth blocks the sunlight from penetrating any deeper.

Growing the algae in 2 inch diameter tubes solves the area problem by making the process vertically oriented instead of flat and grows alage in the full depth of the growth medium.

There are still bugs -- Greenfuels Corp is trying to make their system less labor intensive to collect the algae sludge for processing, for example.

Still this particular news item smells a lot like a Nigerian Prince to me.

[Terez]

I'm always skeptical. :D But I'm always in favor of more research in this area. The closer the contestants get to winning the race to solve this, arguably one of the top few problems facing the world today, the more exciting it gets. We will of course see as time goes on how this one pans out, but you don't have to wait till someone crosses the finish line to start cheering. :p

[Yuri33]

The closed system solves that problem

This system needs (lots of) CO2, so I'm not sure I understand how this can be closed.

In general, I'm very skeptical of all hydrocarbon fuel solutions (as long term solutions) because of all the inherent problems with supply and\or environmental issues. I believe hydrogen will be the ultimate long-term energy solution, so the more money diverted there, the better.

[Weird Harold]

I'm always skeptical. :D But I'm always in favor of more research in this area. ... We will of course see as time goes on how this one pans out, ...

My doubts about this particular company is that it is a fraudulent company that will do more harm than good to the cause of algae based fuel/pollution solutions by giving the whole field of development a bad name.

This system needs (lots of) CO2, so I'm not sure I understand how this can be closed.

"Closed" in the sense that the inputs are closely controlled and the output contained. Greenfuels' system takes the exhaust gasses from a powerplant and bubble them through a transparent container of water and algae in the sunshine -- sort of like collection of giant Hookahs. ;)

The project site Terez linked shows algae growing in tubes

In general, I'm very skeptical of all hydrocarbon fuel solutions (as long term solutions) because of all the inherent problems with supply and\or environmental issues. I believe hydrogen will be the ultimate long-term energy solution, so the more money diverted there, the better.

I think Hydrogen will indeed be the fuel of the (far) future, but we need something to fuel the existing internal combustion engine installations that will be with us for another twenty-plus years even if we were to quit making them today.

Biofuels -- whether processed into Synthetic Crude or into Methane, Ethanol and Biodiesel -- will at least wean the economy off of fossil hydrocarbons and the vulnerability of most oil exporting countries to revolution and/or corruption.

Hydrogen has a serious public perception problem to overcome before it can take over the economy -- people (subconsciously associate "Hydrogen" with the Hindenburg disaster and with Fusion Bombs. There is a perception that Hydrogen is more flammable and explosive than gasoline -- which is NOT true.

That leads to things like special certification requirements to refuel gaseous hydrogen powered busses and requirements for revetments and bunkers for Hydrogen generation and storage facilities.

Liquid Hydrogen is more dangerous than gasoline, BTW, but NOT because it's more explosive, but because it's Cryogenic and cryogenic liquids -- LN2, LOX, LH2, etc -- require specializedtraining and equipment for safe handling.

Gaseous Hydrgen should be treated like Propane -- where anyone or their child can swap a 20lb bottle for their BBQ or RV at any KMart or other "Blue Rhino" bottle exchange location.

[Davian93]

~thinks about holding breath~

~decides against it~

[Weird Harold]

~thinks about holding breath~

~decides against it~
:confused:

[Davian93]

:confused:

It was in response to the original post on another "green" power. My skepticism is at full strength until proven otherwise.

[Weird Harold]

It was in response to the original post on another "green" power. My skepticism is at full strength until proven otherwise.
But it's not "another green power," it's just another "green" company taking advantage of the current energy crisis.

The idea of fuel (or food or plastics or just about anything) from micro-algae is almost as old as science fiction and all the necessary basic technology for the purported product of Sapphire Energy is at least thirty years old -- it just hasn't been economical until gas prices hit $3.00/gal.

Scepticism is good, though, because, this particular company certainly smells like fertilizer instead of fuel.

[Davian93]

But it's not "another green power," it's just another "green" company taking advantage of the current energy crisis.

The idea of fuel (or food or plastics or just about anything) from micro-algae is almost as old as science fiction and all the necessary basic technology for the purported product of Sapphire Energy is at least thirty years old -- it just hasn't been economical until gas prices hit $3.00/gal.

Scepticism is good, though, because, this particular company certainly smells like fertilizer instead of fuel.

That was my impression on reading it...in other news: 40 Billion barrels of oil under Montana...Seriously!!! (http://www.nypost.com/seven/05292008/business/montana_governor_is_sitting_on_an_oil_mi_113005.ht m) Riigghhttt.

[Weird Harold]

That was my impression on reading it...in other news: 40 Billion barrels of oil under Montana...Seriously!!! (http://www.nypost.com/seven/05292008/business/montana_governor_is_sitting_on_an_oil_mi_113005.ht m) Riigghhttt.
While on a visit to Wyoming and Montana, I popped in on Schweitzer, the Democratic governor, who was more than happy to answer my questions about the rumors of huge oil deposits in the so-called Bakken area of his state.

Right now, the US Geological Service estimates that there are 4.3 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the Bakken region, which also reaches into North Dakota.

"They are always conservative," said Schweitzer, who greeted me in his office dressed in jeans, a white shirt and a string tie. "There will be more. It'll probably be more like 40 billion."

The "Bakken Reserves" are (probably) real enough but I haven't researched them enough to understand exactly why they haven't been developed; i'm pretty sure it's an ecological/environmental problem of some sort.

I thought your link was about Gov. Schweitzer's other plan to make Montana rich -- 'Synthetic Fuel' from Coal. It, too, is a technically workable solution to the "fuel crisis" that ignores the ecological cost of continuing to rely on FOSSIL hydrocarbons for our energy needs.

[Davian93]

The Bakken Reserves are real enough but I doubt its 40 Billion like the governor thinks. If the Gov't is saying around 4 Billion in recoverable crude and the governor is saying 40 billion I'd guess that even with the oil shale accounted for (Not considered part of reserves by most calculators) we're still talking no more than 10-20 Billion. In perspective, Saudi Arabia has 260 Billion in reserves.