My, you look familiar [Archive] - Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Crispin's Crispian

09-18-2009, 05:09 PM

...yes, pained as I am to admit it, it does give a hint that way. :D
Or it could simply be reinforcing their weird bond.

Think about how many bonds Rand now has.

Alanna
Elayne, Aviendha, and Min
Mat and Perrin
Moridin
Fain
Possibly Lanfear (her mark at Falme)

He's somehow metaphysically connected to all these people, all or most of whom will likely be pivotal in the last scenes in the series.

Enigma

09-18-2009, 05:23 PM

We know that Rand has taken on some of LTT's mannerism. If the bond between Moridin and Rand is getting stronger it stands to reason that they might each begin to take on certain manerism's of each other as well.

FelixPax

09-18-2009, 07:59 PM

Or it could simply be reinforcing their weird bond.

Think about how many bonds Rand now has.

Alanna
Elayne, Aviendha, and Min
Mat and Perrin
Moridin
Fain
Possibly Lanfear (her mark at Falme)

He's somehow metaphysically connected to all these people, all or most of whom will likely be pivotal in the last scenes in the series.

You missed the bonds to L.T.T, and the two warder's bonds of Elayne to Birgette, and Alanna to Ihvon who are then connected to Rand.

I guess if count Lanfear possibly, you might want to also consider Egwene who felt drawn to Rand after the events of Falme. Or every Aes Sedai, whoever has healed Rand in the past maybe too: Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Samitsu etc.

Terez

09-18-2009, 08:19 PM

Yeah, I pointed it out in the other thread. I don't see how it would be evidence of the body swap theory, though. Maybe foreshadowing, but not evidence.

If you want foreshadowing of the link between Moridin and Rand, go to book 1:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 24 - Flight Down the Arinelle

Ba'alzamon's eyes began to widen, in surprise or anger or both, then the air shimmered, and his features blurred, and faded.

Rand turned about in one spot, staring. Staring at his own image thrown back at him a thousandfold. Ten thousandfold. Above was blackness, and blackness below, but all around him stood mirrors, mirrors set at every angle, mirrors as far as he could see, all showing him, crouched and turning, staring wide-eyed and frightened.

A red blur drifted across the mirrors. He spun, trying to catch it, but in every mirror it drifted behind his own image and vanished. Then it was back again, but not as a blur. Ba'alzamon strode across the mirrors, ten thousand Ba'alzamons, searching, crossing and re-crossing the silvery mirrors.

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.

GonzoTheGreat

09-19-2009, 03:14 AM

Sooooo...Graendal comments on how much Moridin looks like Rand....does this strike anyone as significant? Along with Moridin's arm hurting, I'd say there's some serious foreshadowing going on here and maybe even a hint at the body swap theory...Some more foreshadowing:
Quote:
For a moment, his eyes were even colder. Not harder. That would have been impossible. But for that long moment, they seemed to hold caverns of ice.
/Quote

Nice contrasting similarity to Ishamael's eyes which held caverns of fire, don't you think?

Brita

09-19-2009, 10:23 AM

Yes, it is an interesting contrast. May be a red herring, but there definitely was some emphasis on the Moridin/Rand bond plus the a Moridin/Rand similarity, and I think it is meant to be more than just Moridin picking up Rand's mannerisms.

Yeah, I pointed it out in the other thread. I don't see how it would be evidence of the body swap theory, though. Maybe foreshadowing, but not evidence.

lol! I would never claim it as evidence, I said it was a "maybe even a hint at".

1Powerslave

09-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Nice to get some more "meat on the legs" on the Moridin Rand Body Swap Theory. I am a firm believer in a variant of it. I see it as a little more likely that Moridin wont actually enter Rand's body, but that Rand will at the moment of his death launch himself (conciousness, personality, soul, whatever you like) through that bond to save himself, and then, being experience in fight LTT for control, will wrest control of Moridin's body from him. Moridin will not be ready, because he has no experience on this like Rand does, and he sees Rand die so he relaxes. If Moridin dies, or if he just remains as a "fly's buzz" at the back of Rand's new head remains to be seen. :D

Edit: A fun part would be that if Moridin doesn't die, then the Dark One won't know that Ishamael has lost the fight against the Dragon. Rand can just walk right into the Bore then.

Btw. I always get the feeling that people who resist this theory does it more because it doesn't appeal to them, as a turn of events in the story, rather than evidence against it. ;)

Enigma

09-19-2009, 11:02 AM

It certainly would allow for Rand to get to the bore without having to fight his way there. Who would try to stop the Shadow's regent on earth.

If they did do the body swap Moridin would be at an extreeme disadvantage. He has been used to a relativly healty body where as Rand is in constant pain from the dragons on his arms, the wound in his side and now his missing hand. All these injuries have happened over time so Rand has become used to them for for a soul to be planted into that body it would probably find the pain cripplying.

greatwolf

09-19-2009, 05:55 PM

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.

A dreamer? Unlikely to be Ishamael induced unless Ishamael knew this would happen beforehand. And planned it this way.

greatwolf

09-19-2009, 06:09 PM

Being a dreamer could explain quite a few things about Rand/LTT. Like the pull he gets at falme linking him to Egwene, nynaeve and co., though this could also be taveren effect. But the greatest potential I see for dreamers is in creating new weaves. They could instinctively do things that would take a lot of figuring out for other channelers.

The example that comes to mind is Egwene "sharpening" her shield in TDR to shield a BA sister already holding the power. Elayne comments in WH (snow) how difficult it is and chancy skill at best. Yet they're same strength and this is years after besides.

Terez

09-19-2009, 07:54 PM

It's been brought up before, the possibility. I've argued before that the dream in chapter 9 was prophetic as well.

greatwolf

09-20-2009, 12:22 AM

It's been brought up before, the possibility. I've argued before that the dream in chapter 9 was prophetic as well.

Possibly, though I often wonder what it means. This dream seems confirmed though, in very interesting ways. Certainly part of the plotline from the start.

Terez

09-20-2009, 04:50 AM

Possibly, though I often wonder what it means.
It probably has to do with what Moiraine revealed in the previous chapter - that she was taking them to Tar Valon, 'a place of safety', supposedly. The dream showed him that the people wanted him to go there, because they would feel safer with the Aes Sedai taking care of him. The dream also showed him that the Shadow was waiting in Tar Valon as well, so it was not as safe a place as Moiraine wanted to believe it was.

The dream might have also been showing him that he can put off going to the Tower, but his fate demands that he go there eventually. We won't know that until he goes to the Tower though. :)

GonzoTheGreat

09-20-2009, 05:41 AM

All right, suppose that Rand and Moridin swap bodies. Rand wins, while his old body dies, satisfying the prophecies.

Then Rand is left standing there, while his former girlfriend Cyndane asks "What happened?"
And he has her mindtrap hanging around his neck.

Does anyone see any possibilities for new complications in this ever continuing soap?

Terez

09-20-2009, 05:44 AM

All right, suppose that Rand and Moridin swap bodies. Rand wins, while his old body dies, satisfying the prophecies.
The prophecies say that Rand will die. If he's not in his body when it dies, then he hasn't died.

GonzoTheGreat

09-20-2009, 06:05 AM

Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how that is solved.

Enigma

09-20-2009, 06:55 AM

The prophecies say that Rand will die. If he's not in his body when it dies, then he hasn't died.

I think we all agree that LTT died just as Bridgett has died before but their soul lived on. If Rand's physical body dies and his soul moves on to another body instead of TAR is he still not technically dead?

Terez

09-20-2009, 08:07 AM

I think we all agree that LTT died just as Bridgett has died before but their soul lived on. If Rand's physical body dies and his soul moves on to another body instead of TAR is he still not technically dead?
No, because there's a big difference between being dead and in the afterlife, and being alive in someone else's body. You've either woken from the dream, or you haven't. :)

1Powerslave

09-20-2009, 08:20 AM

Terez

09-20-2009, 08:27 AM

Terez, your interpretation of the Karatheon cycle and *finn prophecies is very simplistic and literal. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, the prophecies are still very fickle and open to interpretation, they leave plenty of room for the author to decide in the last moment what to actually do. :)
Depends on what sort of prophecy you're talking about. When the 'finns told Mat he would die and live again, they meant exactly that. There's no reason to assume it would be different for what they said to Rand - we know they speak the truth. Also, Min gets the words along with the viewing, and she said straight out that Alivia will help Rand die...not that she would help him fake his death.

The last post has nothing to do with the prophecies, and everything to do with the difference between dying and not dying.

It doesn't matter how much you guys try to twist the words and what we knows about how these prophecies work - Rand is going to die.

GonzoTheGreat

09-20-2009, 09:10 AM

Rand is going to die.What is the meaning of "is"? :p

Enigma

09-20-2009, 10:38 AM

No, because there's a big difference between being dead and in the afterlife, and being alive in someone else's body. You've either woken from the dream, or you haven't. :)

Or you could be "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives". I say if his body dies he is dead so that satisfy's the "dead" bit. You say as long as his soul has not passed on he is not dead which satisfy's the "yet lives" bit.

Crispin's Crispian

09-20-2009, 11:24 AM

You missed the bonds to L.T.T, and the two warder's bonds of Elayne to Birgette, and Alanna to Ihvon who are then connected to Rand.

I guess if count Lanfear possibly, you might want to also consider Egwene who felt drawn to Rand after the events of Falme. Or every Aes Sedai, whoever has healed Rand in the past maybe too: Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Samitsu etc.
I was counting only primary bonds, not any that his bondees had with other people. Lanfear is obviously speculative, especially since we have no evidence of any effect of that "mark".

Weird Harold

09-20-2009, 11:57 AM

No, because there's a big difference between being dead and in the afterlife, and being alive in someone else's body. You've either woken from the dream, or you haven't. :)
Are Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael dead or alive? (Yes I know Aginor is dead again but was he really dead the first time at tEotW? :D)

Belazamon

09-20-2009, 11:58 AM

Are Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael dead or alive? (Yes I know Aginor is dead again but was he really dead the first time at tEotW? :D)Clearly Ishamael never died. It was just a clever ruse. Possibly the cleverest ruse of all time!

</terez> ;)

GonzoTheGreat

09-20-2009, 12:20 PM

How about Cyndane?

Belazamon

09-20-2009, 12:51 PM

How about Cyndane?
Plastic surgery.

1Powerslave

09-20-2009, 01:24 PM

Depends on what sort of prophecy you're talking about. When the 'finns told Mat he would die and live again, they meant exactly that. There's no reason to assume it would be different for what they said to Rand - we know they speak the truth. Also, Min gets the words along with the viewing, and she said straight out that Alivia will help Rand die...not that she would help him fake his death.When Rand Balefired Rahvin, he actually erased the event of Mat's death from the Pattern. Cause if he didn't, Mat would be dead. But he is very much alive. So Mat never went to the afterlife, cause he never got struck by lightning, his death never happened. Oh but everyone saw, they have memories of him dying! And many will probably see Rand die, Alivia will make sure of it. But the question is, if a tree falls in the forrest, and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?

As to the *finns. Yes, they always speak the truth, but they never give straight answers. Even the example of Mat you bring up, isn't very straight forward. And Rand's answer aren't either. "The West and south must be as one, the east and north must be as one". Now, exactly where do you divide those two halves on the map. What cites need to be Seanchan controlled exactly for them to have spoken truth? Rand is interpreting it like "you can say the east and south are controlled by the Seanchan...".

creepybob

09-20-2009, 01:27 PM

Plastic surgery.

...that made her shorter.

Weird Harold

09-20-2009, 01:32 PM

Plastic surgery....that made her shorter.

Well, it's obvious that she was going her own way and The DO cut her off at the knees. :D

Weird Harold

09-20-2009, 01:46 PM

"The West and south must be as one, the east and north must be as one". Now, exactly where do you divide those two halves on the map.

If you lay a straight edge on the mapa from Bandar Eban to Illian, it runs very close to very close to Garen's Wall on the Northeast border of Ghealdan.

If you drop back to the borders of Arad Doman and Illian to cut the poins off the triangle, the Seanchan already control everything except Ghealdan (and may control that as well by the time a "Truce In Place" is arranged.)

I doubt that Elayne would countenance a division along the Manatherendrelle and Adoun rivers, nor would Rand give Baerlon and Emmond's Field over to Seanchan control.

A Truce In Place is going to determine where the dividing line is drawn, but I suspect it's going to be on that Garen's Wall line minus the cities at the corners and possibly minus Ghealdan.

Belazamon

09-20-2009, 01:46 PM

Well, it's obvious that she was going her own way and The DO cut her off at the knees. :D
I was gonna go with bone shaving, but that sounds more Great-Lord-esque.

Weird Harold

09-20-2009, 01:51 PM

I was gonna go with bone shaving, but that sounds more Great-Lord-esque.
Of course, she could just be shorter because Shadar Haran deflated her Ego.

creepybob

09-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Of course, she could just be shorter because Shadar Haran deflated her Ego.

Don't you know? In medieval China everyone believed that you were shorter in the afterlife. Significantly shorter.

That's where Cyndane comes from :P

Belazamon

09-20-2009, 04:36 PM

Don't you know? In medieval China everyone believed that you were shorter in the afterlife. Significantly shorter.

That's where Cyndane comes from :PShe comes from Medieval China?

I'm assuming Portal Stones are somehow involved, then...?

creepybob

09-20-2009, 04:39 PM

She comes from Medieval China?

I'm assuming Portal Stones are somehow involved, then...?

Duh! Cyndane is obviously that blond chick in every anime cartoon. The one with the improbably large breasts and constant scowl.

Enigma

09-20-2009, 05:17 PM

Mybe Lanfear just wore really big platform shoes and lost them in Finnland and now all the stores she used to shop in were destroyed by her friends in the War of Power.

Crispin's Crispian

09-21-2009, 11:11 AM

Mybe Lanfear just wore really big platform shoes and lost them in Finnland and now all the stores she used to shop in were destroyed by her friends in the War of Power.
See? I told you all she was enhanced.

Dom

09-22-2009, 09:08 AM

Some more foreshadowing:

The mirroring motifs of Rand's eyes being like blue ice, like chips of ice, cold as winter and similar metaphors like 'death on a winter morning', "like winter's heart" etc. and Ishamel's caverns of fire is not new. It's been around for a long time (as far as ACOS for sure, perhaps before). RJ also used his mouth/words/voice this way too.

SauceyBlueConfetti

09-22-2009, 12:45 PM

I love it when the uber-arguers on the board start getting goofy with their responses. All we need is for Callandor to tell a knock-knock joke and the circle of life will be complete.

:p

Matoyak

09-22-2009, 07:02 PM

Nice bit of foreshadowing here (might have already been brought up in another thread. Probably has...but I am currently working my way through aCoS and this caught my eye):
Rand felt the Dragon Scepter in his hand, felt every line of the carved Dragons against his heron-branded palm as clearly as if he were running his fingers over them, yet it seemed someone else's hand. If a blade cut it off, he would feel the pain---and keep going. It would be another's pain.

Belazamon

09-22-2009, 07:06 PM

I love it when the uber-arguers on the board start getting goofy with their responses. All we need is for Callandor to tell a knock-knock joke and the circle of life will be complete.

:pI figure there's not much point in being deadly serious all the time. :)

Matoyak

09-22-2009, 07:08 PM

I figure there's not much point in being deadly serious all the time. :)Yeah, that'd be tearfully boring. :(

Terez

09-22-2009, 08:15 PM

When Rand Balefired Rahvin, he actually erased the event of Mat's death from the Pattern. Cause if he didn't, Mat would be dead. But he is very much alive. So Mat never went to the afterlife, cause he never got struck by lightning, his death never happened. Oh but everyone saw, they have memories of him dying! And many will probably see Rand die, Alivia will make sure of it. But the question is, if a tree falls in the forrest, and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound? Balefire makes it as if these things didn't happen, but they still happened. It doesn't erase memory - just consequences.

As to the *finns. Yes, they always speak the truth, but they never give straight answers. Even the example of Mat you bring up, isn't very straight forward. And Rand's answer aren't either. "The West and south must be as one, the east and north must be as one". Now, exactly where do you divide those two halves on the map. What cites need to be Seanchan controlled exactly for them to have spoken truth? Rand is interpreting it like "you can say the east and south are controlled by the Seanchan...". All the 'Finns said here, when you add it up, is that the whole of Randland must be one. Pretty simple.

Also, Min's viewings aren't tricksy at all, and she says Rand will die.

Are Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael dead or alive? Balthamel and Ishamael are alive, again. Aginor is dead (again). Not sure why you asked - that's obvious.

Or you could be "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives". I say if his body dies he is dead so that satisfy's the "dead" bit. You say as long as his soul has not passed on he is not dead which satisfy's the "yet lives" bit. Birgitte says that Heroes in the afterlife are 'not dead as others are dead'. That works well enough to explain the paradox - better than anything anyone else has come up with, I think.