Dragonmount

[Marie Curie 7]

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 1 - Tears from Steel

The wind flicked a few dresses, knocked some laundry from its hangings, then continued westward in a rush. Westward, past towering Dragonmount, with its shattered and smoking apex. Over the Black Hills and across the sweeping Caralain Grass. Here, pockets of sheltered snow clung to shadows beneath craggy overhangs or beside the occasional stands of mountain blackwood. It was time for spring to arrive, time for new shoots to peek through the winter's thatch and for buds to sprout on the thin-branched willows. Few of either had actually come. The land was still dormant, as if waiting, holding its breath. The unnatural heat of the previous autumn had stretched well into winter, pressing upon the land a drought that had baked the life from all but the most vigorous plants. When winter had finally arrived, it had come in a tempest of ice and snow, a lingering, killing frost. Now that the cold had finally retreated, the scattered farmers looked in vain for hope.

So...how and when do people think Dragonmount is going to blow? It's been spewing and smoking for some time now.

[Terez]

I expect it when Rand dies. :) Which would be at the end of Towers of Midnight, or near the beginning of A Memory of Light, I think.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Dragonmount will disperse a lot of dust into the upper atmosphere, blocking the light of the sun and bringing "the shadow at noon" against which the Amyrlin Seat supposedly guards.
Egwene has some talent with Earth; perhaps she can pacify Dragon Mount, thus preventing the thing from blowing.

[Terez]

Dragonmount will disperse a lot of dust into the upper atmosphere, blocking the light of the sun and bringing "the shadow at noon" against which the Amyrlin Seat supposedly guards.
Egwene has some talent with Earth; perhaps she can pacify Dragon Mount, thus preventing the thing from blowing.
I've seen the Dragonmount/shadow at noon thing proposed before. Or maybe it was me that proposed it. Anyway, it takes longer than a day for the dust to disperse, so it wouldn't work for 'twice dawns the day' unless some people with good weather skills are involved...and it's not really a 'dawn' unless the sun is coming over the eastern horizon anyway. :confused: But I doubt anyone can prevent Dragonmount from blowing...it's been building up pressure for over 3000 years! Okay, so that's not long geologically...but for a volcano of that type, it can be. Usually, the longer it's been since an eruption, the worse the eruption is, and for this type of volcano, over 3000 years is a long time. They usually erupt every few hundred years or so, and if it's longer than that, the eruption is more destructive.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the other hand, it isn't really as though there is a hot spot delivering extra heat beneath Dragonmount, is it? All the power behind its first eruption came from above, in one giant swoop delivered by LTT. Since then, all that it has done is cool down.
That may lead to the occasional popping and crackling when still hot bits break free, but there is no obvious reason at all why there would be yet another big eruption ever again.

[Terez]

On the other hand, it isn't really as though there is a hot spot delivering extra heat beneath Dragonmount, is it? All the power behind its first eruption came from above, in one giant swoop delivered by LTT. Since then, all that it has done is cool down.
Well, Lews Therin tapped into a deep magma pool, obviously, when he killed himself. That's what created the volcano. It emptied itself, and it's been filling again all that time. If it had been simply cooling down all this time, then it wouldn't be showing signs of pressure (a volcano letting off some steam, and rumbling, are sure signs of pressure beneath the surface - likely pressure that will explode some time soon).

I just took geology year before last with a volcano nut, and I actually asked her about it at the time. She thought that the idea of me asking something that was written in a fiction book was ridiculous, because surely they don't know what they're talking about anyway. But she doesn't know RJ. :D

[Spidy]

You could Bowl of the Winds it away. Supposedly there was more than one bowl.

[ShadowbaneX]

You could Bowl of the Winds it away. Supposedly there was more than one bowl.
and when Nynave and Elayne were looking for the Bowl of Winds, they were actually looking for something to fix the weather and need first took them in the direction of the Tower.

[Davian93]

and when Nynave and Elayne were looking for the Bowl of Winds, they were actually looking for something to fix the weather and need first took them in the direction of the Tower.

The WT probably has 7 or 8 Bowls in their "Unknown Ter'angreal" storage rooms. No one there actually studies them so they'd have no idea what they actually were anyway.

[greatwolf]

You could Bowl of the Winds it away. Supposedly there was more than one bowl.

I think its certain there were several terangreal in the aol for regulating whether. But no one knows where or what they are except LTT and the forsaken. And they're not telling. Besides, is anyone asking? Last I checked Rand never asked asmodean anything of terangreal. And he had him for months with a cache under his eye. Moiraine knew too, but why ask?

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think its certain there were several terangreal in the aol for regulating whether. But no one knows where or what they are except LTT and the forsaken. And they're not telling. Besides, is anyone asking?Hah!
The idea of Rand wandering through the Tar Valon storerooms, picking up things left and right with a muttered "this could be useful" while some nice, polite, AS are trailing after him ...

That's almost a complete Wacky Theory, right there. :p

[Davian93]

Hah!
The idea of Rand wandering through the Tar Valon storerooms, picking up things left and right with a muttered "this could be useful" while some nice, polite, AS are trailing after him ...

That's almost a complete Wacky Theory, right there. :p

Perhaps Rand could return the favor by letting some trusted AS walk through both the Great Holding and the Ter'angreal/Angreal/Sa'angreal from Rhuidean?

It might just be a good idea to see if there is anything useful lying around (like that 2nd most powerful sa'angreal, etc)

[Terez]

If that sa'angreal was there, Rand would have found it - a woman wouldn't be able to feel that it was an angreal.

[Davian93]

If that sa'angreal was there, Rand would have found it - a woman wouldn't be able to feel that it was an angreal.

Perhaps. Its possible he didn't search the entire thing. He even said that he only found the fat man angreal by accident essentially. I agree its unlikely but there are very likely several female angreal and probably more male angreal lying around and tons of ter'angreal.

[Terez]

The point is that the women won't have any way of knowing a male angreal. But a sa'angreal would have been easier for Rand to find than a regular angreal - they can be sensed. Hence why Egwene was drawn to the access key in Tanchico, and why Rand was drawn to the statue. But iirc that sensing is what drew Rand's attention to the fat man angreal in the first place.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Moiraine, Egwene and Nynaeve went through the Great Hold.
And Moiraine (and presumably Egwene too) spend a couple of days at least scouring Rhuidean to find anything they wanted to take to Tar Valon.

[Marie Curie 7]

I've seen the Dragonmount/shadow at noon thing proposed before. Or maybe it was me that proposed it.

Well, it is possible that the shadow at noon thing is a separate event from the twice dawns the day thing. Mostly they seem to get linked together, but nothing says they have to be linked. If so, then the shadow at noon could potentially refer to Dragonmount erupting - there's nothing in the shadow at noon thing that says that 'dawn' has to come again that same day. :) When Mt. St. Helen's erupted in 1980, for example, the ash fall during the day made it look like night in cities up to about 100 miles away. I think the shadow at noon thing is more likely to be similar to what happened when the Sharom blew than ash from a volcanic eruption, though. :)

[Terez]

The shadow at noon is not even a prophecy - it's just part of the Borderlanders' oaths.

[Crispin's Crispian]

The shadow at noon is not even a prophecy - it's just part of the Borderlanders' oaths.
I always just figured that the Trollocs would attack during a lunch break. That's why the Borderlanders eat lunch at 1 pm.

[Brita]

I always just figured that the Trollocs would attack during a lunch break. That's why the Borderlanders eat lunch at 1 pm.

Ah yes, but the shadow may know this. The Borderlanders should eat lunch on a complicated, shifting schedule so as to confuse the enemy entirely.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Ah yes, but the shadow may know this. The Borderlanders should eat lunch on a complicated, shifting schedule so as to confuse the enemy entirely.
True, true. Even the most die-hard groups can be penetrated by Darkfriends with small notepads and watches.

[Marie Curie 7]

The shadow at noon is not even a prophecy - it's just part of the Borderlanders' oaths.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. :rolleyes: That's why I referred to them as the 'twice dawns the day' thing and the 'shadow at noon' thing, since one is a prophecy and the other is just a Borderland greeting for the Amyrlin. My point was that many times when the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy is mentioned, the 'shadow at noon' is brought up as possibly being connected. But it need not be connected, obviously, as I already said. It could simply be related to the Borderlander fixation with getting rid of shadows so that Myrddraal can't enter. Or it could be something else entirely.

But... when Dragonmount blows, will it take out Tar Valon? How much destruction might it cause? Does anybody want to make any estimates of how close Dragonmount is to Tar Valon?

As far as I know, there are no direct statements of how far Dragonmount is from Tar Valon, and there is no specific information given about its height, either. We just have comments that the peak can be seen for miles around and that it's always towering over the landscape and such.

Here, though, we learn that clouds are seen around it less than halfway to the top, and the shadow just touches Tar Valon at sunset every evening:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose on the great plain called the Caralain Grass. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning. North and west the wind blew beneath early morning sun, over endless miles of rolling grass and far-scattered thickets, across the swift-flowing River Luan, past the broken-topped fang of Dragonmount, mountain of legend towering above the slow swells of the rolling plain, looming so high that clouds wreathed it less than halfway to the smoking peak. Dragonmount, where the Dragon had died-and with him, some said, the Age of Legends-where prophecy said he would be born again. Or had been. North and west, across the villages of Jualdhe and Darein and Alindaer, where bridges like stone lacework arched out to the Shining Walls, the great white walls of what many called the greatest city in the world. Tar Valon. A city just touched by the reaching shadow of Dragonmount each evening.

We also know from the following quote that the tree line is less than halfway up, and more about the shadow, but this time it's stated that the shadow only sometimes touches Tar Valon:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 16 - The Subject of Negotiations

The land tended upward from the River Erinin, not in hills but simply rising toward the monstrous peak that loomed to the west, so massive it seemed to mock the name mountain. Dragonmount would have towered above everything else even in the Spine of the World; in the relatively flat country around Tar Valon, its white-capped crest seemed to reach the heavens, especially when a thin thread of smoke was streaming away from the jagged top as it was now. A thin thread at that height would be something else entirely, close at hand. Trees gave out less than halfway up Dragonmount, and no one had ever succeeded in reaching the crest or even coming close, though it was said the slopes were littered with the bones of those who had tried. Why anyone would try in the first place, no one could quite explain. Sometimes the long evening shadow of the mountain stretched all the way to the city. People who lived in the region were accustomed to Dragonmount dominating the sky, much as they were accustomed to the White Tower looming above the city walls and visible for miles. Both were unchanging fixtures that had always been there and always would be, but crops and crafts occupied the people's lives, not mountains or Aes Sedai.

Maybe we can make a crude estimate of the height of Dragonmount from this information. Tree lines do vary pretty widely, though. For example, the tree line occurs at about 11,000 feet or so in the Rocky Mountains (give or take a 1000). But for other mountains, the tree line is more like 4000-5000 feet, and for others it's higher than 11,000 feet.

But suppose we estimate a tree line of 10,000-11,000 feet. Then, since the tree line occurs less than halfway up Dragonmount, a height of perhaps about 25,000 feet would not be out of line. That would put Dragonmount up there in height with some of the tallest peaks in the world at present. Any thoughts?

[Weird Harold]

But... when Dragonmount blows, will it take out Tar Valon? How much destruction might it cause? Does anybody want to make any estimates of how close Dragonmount is to Tar Valon?

As far as I know, there are no direct statements of how far Dragonmount is from Tar Valon, and there is no specific information given about its height, either.

The maps show Dragonmount about 40 miles from Tar Valon -- more or less depending on how accurate the placement of places like TarValon, Caemlyn, Cairhein and Ebou Dar are. New Spring gave us a "mornings ride" to the villages at thbase of Dragonmount -- which would be about right for the base of a volcano centered 40-50 miles from town.

Everest in 29,030 -- plus or minus, depending on which method was used for the measurement. I have a feeling that Dragon mount is higher than Everest (or K2) at something like a nice round 30K feet.

The map on Pg 146 of the BWB shows Dragnmount at about 55N Latitude. I'm too tired to recall fifty year old Trig lessons, but 30,000 ft and 55 degrees should be enough to calculate the distance.

[GonzoTheGreat]

What is Dragonmount called in the Old Tongue?

[Davian93]

What is Dragonmount called in the Old Tongue?

LewsTherinMount ;)

[Matoyak]

LewsTherinMount ;)Sounds like you could make many a joke out of that ;)

[Enigma]

I wonder how the distance from Tar Valon to Dragonmount compares with Pompei to Mount Vesuvius. I gather Pompei might have been closer but it gives an idea of the damage it could do if it does go off.

[Terez]

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast. :D

[Matoyak]

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast. :DSo if this is true, then Egwene really is wasting all her time getting the White Tower back. Well, guess it depends on the timeline, really...when DM blows (if at all) etc. etc..

[Enigma]

Perhaps the Aes Sedai will have to move in wih the Asha'man in the Black Tower. Or might Egwene strenght in earth be enough to calm the savage beast and save the White Tower not to mention Tar Valon. That should get her some cudos.

[bowlwoman]

Or might Egwene strenght in earth be enough to calm the savage beast and save the White Tower not to mention Tar Valon. That should get her some cudos.

So, an analogy of how she should treat Rand?

[Terez]

So if this is true, then Egwene really is wasting all her time getting the White Tower back. Well, guess it depends on the timeline, really...when DM blows (if at all) etc. etc..
Nah - my theory is that they'll be forced to relocate to Rhuidean - neutral ground, so to speak, for Egwene and Logain to work together. And the building of the city started eons ago by Aes Sedai. :D Rand ordered them to find Ogier Stonemasons to rebuild the city before he left...

[Enigma]

But what about al the theories that Elaida that beacon of Aes Sedai/Asha'man equality is secretly buidling the new Black Tower in the Warder training grounds?

[Terez]

Meh, it might be - but it might all be destroyed. :D Seems a bit pointless to have a big smoking volcano and then not have it destroy stuff.

[Enigma]

Might it be used as a weapon if a large shadowspawn army was gathered near TV? LTT's revenge perhaps.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Aiming a volcano is tricky.

[Davian93]

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast. :D

Having hiked the moonscape that is the eruption zone of Mt St. Helens, yes, it would be completely toast. There is nothing to slow down the blast wave.

[Weird Harold]

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast. :D
but only on one side of the mountain.

Vesuvius erupted mostly vertically and buried both Pompeii and Herculaneum on basically opposite sides of the mountian.

Personally, I think Dragon Mount is is more of a Krakatoa or Mt Mazama kind of threat -- the kind that changes world climate and causes mini-ice ages.

Tar Valon may be toast like Pompeii, or it might be only as damaged as Olympia or Puyallup were when Mt St Helens blew -- i.e. not at all in any permanent way.

[Terez]

Well, the point is, again, that Dragonmount certainly has the potential to destroy Tar Valon, and since Tar Valon is the only thing in range to be destroyed, then it's the obvious target of all that rumbling and smoking. :)

[Davian93]

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast. :D

And building on that, Mount St. Helens was about 9,600 feet in elevation before the eruption where as we're estimating Dragonmount at over three times that...so the destruction would be far more devastating and widespread.

[Davian93]

Something to consider:

Prevailing winds in the Dragonmount area are likely West to East so any eruption would greatly affect Tar Valon. St. Helens is located in a chain of mountains (the Cascades) and thus has natural breaks that somewhat contain an eruption. Dragonmount is on a flat plain with nothing around it.

[GonzoTheGreat]

A possible comparison is the eruption of Krakatoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1883_eruption_of_Krakatoa). Though that one was probably not quite as strong as Dragonmount would be.

[Wunderwaffe]

Dragonmount can't really be classified as any specific type of contemporary volcano due to its origin. It was created by Lews Therin Telamon drawing an inordinate amount of tainted saidin, causing a massive bolt of energy to traverse from the heavens, down to the surface. As such, it is quite difficult to come up with any solid conclusions regarding the mountain's behavior, composition, internal structure, amount of igneous intrusions, vent(s), pyroclastics, etc.

But if I were to hazard a guess as to which type of volcano it most resembles, I would say composite cone. (stratovolcano) Shield volcanoes are much too gently steeped, and don't meet the height requirements. In addition, shield volcanoes erupt frequently. Dragonmount is typically silent. Waiting. The eruptions (of Shield Volcanoes) are typically gentle lava flows that aren't very dangerous. They bring in the tourists and sightseers. (Mauna Loa, Hawaii for instance)

Dragonmount is much too high to be a cinder cone. In addition, Dragonmount doesn't erupt frequently enough to be a cinder cone. Cinder cones are nice and steep, but due to the amount of eruptions they undergo, they have a tendency to stay rather smallish.

Unless we consider the possibility that Dragonmount is a singular mountain with no real-world parallels, (which we pretty much have to) the only other alternative is that it is a composite cone. Composite cones can get quite high, and fit the behavioral pattern of Dragonmount to some extent. A slow, gradual buildup of magma and gas with no escape route over the course of thousands of years...and then BOOM!

I'd say the only chance the Aes Sedai have is linking with Asha'man, forming a huge circle with the aid of several angreal or sa'angreal and forming some sort of protective barrier with the Power that surrounds Tar Valon. I'm thinking of the Shield that Cadsuane wove at the end of Winter's Heart at the Cleansing scene. Magnified exponentially of course. The pressing issue, however, is the inherent unpredictability concerning these types of eruptions. Even if it coincides with Rand's death, who will be able to send a message to Tar Valon to warn them of the pending eruption? Someone who witnessed Rand's death, and then immediately travels to Tar Valon? Unlikely.

Chances are, if Dragonmount does blow its top, Tar Valon is toast. I'd also worry about the outlying villages; especially those close to the base of Dragonmount. The mudflows that will occur could extend as far as 10-15 miles from the base of the mountain. Mudflows are nothing to laugh at.

[Weird Harold]

Well, the point is, again, that Dragonmount certainly has the potential to destroy Tar Valon, and since Tar Valon is the only thing in range to be destroyed, then it's the obvious target of all that rumbling and smoking. :)
It is?

I think a directional eruption like Mt St Helens to the west or northwest -- over the black hills and or caralain grass would be almost effective as Rand with the Well at tEotW in slowing down a horde of trollocs. :D

We do have the fragment of "a children's song fromthe Fourth Age:"

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children's game
heard in Great Aravalon,
the Fourth Age"

That seems to me to suggest that Tar Valon will survive -- perhaps not wholly intact, but rebuildable.

[Davian93]

Unless of course they name their successor city Tar Valon too or some sort of "New Tar Valon"...

[Terez]

Yeah, I figured it couldn't be a basaltic volcano since it doesn't erupt often (or at all, since its birth).

[Terez]

It is?
Yup, there's nothing else anywhere around.

That seems to me to suggest that Tar Valon will survive -- perhaps not wholly intact, but rebuildable.
If it survived, you'd think it would keep the name - there's no reason to change the name if it continues to be the seat of Aes Sedai power.

[Davian93]

Barashta changed its name despite it somewhat "surviving" the Trolloc Wars... But it did suffer signficant damage. The fact that it changes its name suggests that it was either rebuilt or its a different sort of "new" tar valon.

[GonzoTheGreat]

If it survived, you'd think it would keep the name - there's no reason to change the name if it continues to be the seat of Aes Sedai power.Al'cair'rahienallen didn't keep its name. In the real world, Byzantium didn't keep its name.

[Davian93]

Al'cair'rahienallen didn't keep its name. In the real world, Byzantium didn't keep its name.

Only because the godless infidels changed it when they stole it from Christendom. Can't even build their own churches, had to steal ours.

[GonzoTheGreat]

To be fair to the godless infidels, the Christians had already changed the name from Byzantium to Constantinople.

[Weird Harold]

Chances are, if Dragonmount does blow its top, Tar Valon is toast. I'd also worry about the outlying villages; especially those close to the base of Dragonmount. The mudflows that will occur could extend as far as 10-15 miles from the base of the mountain. Mudflows are nothing to laugh at.

Dragonmount isn't described as snow-capped that I recall, so mudflows wouldn't be as big a problem as real-world examples.

Tar Valon is in the worst possible geographic relationship to Dragonmount, being almost due northeast according to the various maps.

If I had to pick a real-world model for Dragonmount, I think Shasta, Lassen, or Hood in the US or possibly Fujiama. Any of them could wind up like Mt Mazama.

For those unfamliar with Mt Mazama, aka Crater Lake National Park, here's a summary (http://oregonexplorer.info/craterlake/geology.html) which includes a link to a map (http://oregonexplorer.info/craterlake/images/maps/s_distribution.gif) of the area the eruption devastated (which would easliy include a city the size and location of Tar Valon.

PS: Mt Mazama was roughly half the size of Dragonmount at 12,000-15,000 fett tall.

[Davian93]

To be fair to the godless infidels, the Christians had already changed the name from Byzantium to Constantinople.

Which is okay as it was changed from what the original godless infidels named it to a good christian name and then the godless infidels of a different sort invaded and wickedly changed the name to something new...and stole our churches.

[Weird Harold]

Yup, there's nothing else anywhere around.

Of course there isn't, the Trolloc hordes haven't moved down into range yet.

Egwene can't use her talent in Delving for ores to tap into the magma chanber and hose them down with hot lava and pyrclastic flows yet. She has to let them gather sufficient numbers to make her one shot at lava roasted trolloc count. :D

[Terez]

Al'cair'rahienallen didn't keep its name. In the real world, Byzantium didn't keep its name.
Cairhien just got shortened from the old name, as did most of the cities with Old Tongue names. "Great Aravalon" is longer than "Tar Valon" - seems an odd change to make unless the city is destroyed and later rebuilt, or if the purpose of the city changes.

Also, Dragonmount is always snow-capped, year round.

[Davian93]

What Dragonmount might look like:

http://www.mountainmadness.com/images/expeditions/samerica/Parinacota.jpg

Only a minimum of 10 K higher in altitude. This is Parinacota Volcano in South America.

[Weird Harold]

"Great Aravalon" is longer than "Tar Valon" - seems an odd change to make unless the city is destroyed and later rebuilt, or if the purpose of the city changes.

It is however, shorter than "Greater Tar Valon" and a plausible linguistic shift from that intermediate name -- much the way names like "King's Town" get slurred into "Kingston" or New Orleans is pronunced Nawleans.

I can easily see Tar Valon expanding its sphere of influence (and becoming a real nation instead of an insular city state) as the Guardians and Servants (try to) return to what 'Aes Sedai' meant in the AOL.

[Davian93]

So is anyone at all good at trig (I remember absolutely NO math as I haven't taken it or even used anything above basic algebra in probably close to a decade now).

How tall would Dragonmount need to be for the shadow to just "brush" Tar Valon from 40 miles away?

40 miles is the equivalent of the distance Rainier is from Seattle and its not even close in that scenario (Rainier is around 18 K ft tall IIRC...I climbed to the 10 K mark on it once).

[Davian93]

Here's some quotes on Dragonmount for thought:

In the deepest night, you could see it blocking the stars. Dragonmount would have been a giant in the Spine of the World, but there on the plain, it was monstrous, piercing the clouds and rising taller. Higher above the clouds than most mountains were below, its broken peak always emitted a streamer of smoke.

I tend to think that it might be closer to the 40-50 K feet in height, not 30. Its also always clearly active as the streamer of smoke indicates.

We can't use the snowline as an indicator as this quote will show:

One week to the day after Gitara made her Foretelling, the weather warmed suddenly. The sun rose in a cloudless sky on what seemed like a cool spring day, and before sunset most of the snow had melted. All of it was gone around Dragonmount, except on the very peak. The ground around the mountain had its own warmth, and snow always melted there first.

Shot in the dark, the maps are somewhat innacurate as Dragonmount must be closer than 40 miles (probably in the 10-20 mile range) and its likely at least 40-50 K in height (more than half of it above the clouds).

[Terez]

It's not always active in the sense of always erupting, like the basaltic volcanoes, but it's definitely not dormant.

[Davian93]

It's not always active in the sense of always erupting, like the basaltic volcanoes, but it's definitely not dormant.

Is definitely not erupting but its always venting smoke. It think its closer and taller than our previous guess. Ashame no one ever just asked RJ...unless they did and he RAFOed it. (I looked but couldn't find anything)

[Davian93]

Okay, found a cool shadow calculator online finally:

http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/shadow_length.html

If Dragonmount was 30,000 feet tall, its shadow would extend about 32 miles with the sun at 10 degree altitude.

40,000 feet at 10 degrees equals just under 43 miles for shadow.

So, IF Weird Harold's estimate based on the map of 40 miles away is accurate, then we have a probable height of 30-40K feet.

[Enigma]

Why would the old Aes Sedai chose to build Tar Valon in the path of a potential volcano? I know that modern AS don't know a lot about earth as its a power they are generally weak in but Tar Valon was built shorlty after the breaking. Surely the general AS knowledge base was better then that now comming so soon after the AoL.

If Dragonmount is in any danger of going off without outside help you would have though that some AS would have suggested a different location for the city.

[Davian93]

Perhaps one of the prophecies told them to do it or a Foretelling.

[Wunderwaffe]

Do we have any foreshadowing or indications that might suggest that Dragonmount will violently erupt at or around the time of Tarmon Gai'don?

Whether it be the Karaethon Cycle, a Foretelling, Dream, or Viewing?

I don't think Randland has any Volcanologists, Geologists, etc. Unless some Aes Sedai are monitoring Dragonmount on a semi-regular basis, and noting any protrusions, or "bulges" along the slopes, there isn't going to be any warning signs or alarms going off to warn them of the impending disaster.

Before Mt. St. Helens exploded, scientists were well aware that the North face of the mountain was bulging severely. Our society is more technologically advanced than Randland, and we had a field of science devoted purely to volcanoes. Randland doesn't have this luxury, so Aes Sedai and the One Power is their only hope.

I'm sure AoL Aes Sedai would easily be able to forecast a stratovolcano's eruption by delving with saidin into the mountain. It's definitely feasible. I'm also confident that the current Aes Sedai and Asha'man don't have this skill -- it was assuredly lost sometime after the Breaking.

Perhaps a handful of Aes Sedai or Asha'man (Egwene comes to mind) could forecast Dragonmount's eruption. (those who are innately skilled at working with Earth)

There is also the complacency issue. Dragonmount is familiar, it's been around for a long time, and it hasn't caused any real harm. It's menacing to some extent, but more so because of the history behind it, not because it has laid waste to the surrounding area via a violent eruption. It is a reminder that the Dragon will eventually be rewoven into the Pattern, and that Tarmon Gai'don is inevitable.

[Terez]

Why would the old Aes Sedai chose to build Tar Valon in the path of a potential volcano?
Ishamael, maybe? He was the first to set foot on the island. Perhaps to keep an eye out for the Dragon Reborn?

I know that modern AS don't know a lot about earth as its a power they are generally weak in but Tar Valon was built shorlty after the breaking. Surely the general AS knowledge base was better then that now coming so soon after the AoL.

If Dragonmount is in any danger of going off without outside help you would have though that some AS would have suggested a different location for the city.
There don't appear to be any other volcanoes in Randland, so it's possible that they don't know what to expect, but Vandene's comment suggests otherwise (some foreshadowing, for Wunderwaffe):

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 22 - Watchers

Vandene rose to her feet. "Well, I have tasks to be about before bed. If you have no more questions, I will leave you to your studies." But she paused and revealed that however long she had spent with books, she was still of the Green Ajah. "You should do something about Lan, Moiraine. The man is rumbling inside worse than Dragonmount. Sooner or later, he will erupt. I've known enough men to see when one is troubled with a woman. You two have been together a long time. Perhaps he has finally come to see you are a woman as well as Aes Sedai."
I'd say the wind in Knife of Dreams was foreshadowing, as well.

[Enigma]

Ishamael, maybe? He was the first to set foot on the island. Perhaps to keep an eye out for the Dragon Reborn?

Ishamael was only allowed out for 40 years and I though that Tar Valon was built well after LTT died, at least a 100/200 years later. Ishamael should have been locked up safe and sound until he started the Trolloc wars (unless he got out more often)


here don't appear to be any other volcanoes in Randland, so it's possible that they don't know what to expect, but Vandene's comment suggests otherwise (some foreshadowing, for Wunderwaffe):

The whole westlands seem to be very stable from a geologist's point of view. I don't think we have ever heard of an earthquake either. There is one other place where lava and such are to be found and that is near SG.


'd say the wind in Knife of Dreams was foreshadowing, as well.

RJ was big into balance. If SG is blown up perhaps dragonmount will go as well.

[Davian93]

I'm sure there are other volcanoes in Randland, regardless of whether they have been mentioned or not.

[Terez]

RJ was big into balance. If SG is blown up perhaps dragonmount will go as well.
Yeah, I have considered that as well, that they would both go at once. But it seems that the smoking peak and the non-dormancy of Dragonmount have been mentioned just a few too many times to not be indication that Dragonmount will blow.

[Marie Curie 7]

The maps show Dragonmount about 40 miles from Tar Valon -- more or less depending on how accurate the placement of places like TarValon, Caemlyn, Cairhein and Ebou Dar are. New Spring gave us a "mornings ride" to the villages at the base of Dragonmount -- which would be about right for the base of a volcano centered 40-50 miles from town.

Yeah, I guess that one of my questions was regarding how accurate those map placements are.

The map on Pg 146 of the BWB shows Dragnmount at about 55N Latitude. I'm too tired to recall fifty year old Trig lessons, but 30,000 ft and 55 degrees should be enough to calculate the distance.

55N latitude seems rather high for the location of Tar Valon. Cities in the real world at about that latitude include Moscow and Copenhagen. I really don't recall Tar Valon winters being as difficult as those in Moscow, for example.

I wonder how the distance from Tar Valon to Dragonmount compares with Pompei to Mount Vesuvius. I gather Pompei might have been closer but it gives an idea of the damage it could do if it does go off.

It was roughly 8-10 miles from Pompeii to Vesuvius, according to this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mt_Vesuvius_79_AD_eruption_3.svg). So yeah, it is presumably much closer from Pompeii to Vesuvius than from Tar Valon to Dragonmount.

Mt. St. Helens devastated an area 600 square kilometers when it blew. Tar Valon is toast.

Having hiked the moonscape that is the eruption zone of Mt St. Helens, yes, it would be completely toast. There is nothing to slow down the blast wave.

Yeah, that's about 230 square miles. As Weird Harold noted, though, the blast zone was not symmetric, and that's about 15 miles by 15 miles, anyway, even if a symmetric blast is assumed. So that in no way means that Tar Valon would definitely be destroyed if we believe that Tar Valon is more than 20 miles east of Dragonmount.

Dragonmount isn't described as snow-capped that I recall, so mudflows wouldn't be as big a problem as real-world examples.

Yes, Dragonmount is snow-capped, as Terez noted. For example:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 16 - The Subject of Negotiations

The land tended upward from the River Erinin, not in hills but simply rising toward the monstrous peak that loomed to the west, so massive it seemed to mock the name mountain. Dragonmount would have towered above everything else even in the Spine of the World; in the relatively flat country around Tar Valon, its white-capped crest seemed to reach the heavens, especially when a thin thread of smoke was streaming away from the jagged top as it was now. A thin thread at that height would be something else entirely, close at hand. Trees gave out less than halfway up Dragonmount, and no one had ever succeeded in reaching the crest or even coming close, though it was said the slopes were littered with the bones of those who had tried. Why anyone would try in the first place, no one could quite explain. Sometimes the long evening shadow of the mountain stretched all the way to the city. People who lived in the region were accustomed to Dragonmount dominating the sky, much as they were accustomed to the White Tower looming above the city walls and visible for miles. Both were unchanging fixtures that had always been there and always would be, but crops and crafts occupied the people's lives, not mountains or Aes Sedai.

Only a minimum of 10 K higher in altitude. This is Parinacota Volcano in South America.

But Dragonmount does not have a symmetric peak like that volcano. Its top is broken. For example:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 18 - To the White Tower

The island was so big it looked more as if the river split in two than contained a bit of land. Bridges that seemed to be made of lace arched from either bank to the island, crossing marshy ground as well as the river. The walls of the city, the Shining Walls of Tar Valon, glistened white as the sun broke through the clouds. And on the west bank, its broken top leaking a thin wisp of smoke, Dragonmount reared black against the sky, one mountain standing among flat lands and rolling hills. Dragonmount, where the Dragon had died. Dragonmount, made by the Dragon's dying.

Edit: for a typo.

[Davian93]

Yeah, that's about 230 square miles. As Weird Harold noted, though, the blast zone was not symmetric, and that's about 15 miles by 15 miles, anyway, even if a symmetric blast is assumed. So that in no way means that Tar Valon would definitely be destroyed if we believe that Tar Valon is more than 20 miles west of Dragonmount.


Mount St. Helens is a baby compared to Dragonmount. The blast zone would be far larger as a result. Instead of 15 miles out you could very well have 45 miles out. St. Helens was only about 9600 ft before the eruption and 8300 afterward. Imagine a far more massive blast.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah, I guess that one of my questions was regarding how accurate those map placements are.

I can't say how accurate the placement is, but it does seem to be consistent. Tar Valon and/or Dragonmount is one of the points I use to compare map scales, Although I use the distances to Caemlyn, Ebou Dar and Tear rather than the separation of Tar Valon and Dragonmount.


55N latitude seems rather high for the location of Tar Valon. Cities in the real world at about that latitude include Moscow and Copenhagen. I really don't recall Tar Valon winters being as difficult as those in Moscow, for example.

The WOT seems to be warmer than the R/W as far as difficult winters are concerned. I don't think even the borderlands have winters as bad as Moscow.

The map on pg 146 is the checkerboard world Map Terez linked in another thread. Each of those checkerboard squares is fifteen degrees as best as anyone can tell and Dragonmount is about three and two thirds squares above the equator.

[Marie Curie 7]

Mount St. Helens is a baby compared to Dragonmount. The blast zone would be far larger as a result. Instead of 15 miles out you could very well have 45 miles out. St. Helens was only about 9600 ft before the eruption and 8300 afterward. Imagine a far more massive blast.

Yes, Davian, I am aware of the height of Mt. St. Helens before and after May 18, 1980... I lived in the Pacific Northwest for a time, and also, when I was an undergraduate, we analyzed the elemental composition of fly ash from Mt. St. Helens. So the Mt. St. Helens eruption became a special interest of mine.

At any rate, sure, Mt. St. Helens is likely much smaller in height than Dragonmount. But you're assuming that there's some sort of linear relationship between the height of the volcano and the size of its blast zone. How do you know this? As far as I know, there is no such linear relationship.

[Marie Curie 7]

Here's some quotes on Dragonmount for thought:

Originally Posted by New Spring
In the deepest night, you could see it blocking the stars. Dragonmount would have been a giant in the Spine of the World, but there on the plain, it was monstrous, piercing the clouds and rising taller. Higher above the clouds than most mountains were below, its broken peak always emitted a streamer of smoke.

I tend to think that it might be closer to the 40-50 K feet in height, not 30. Its also always clearly active as the streamer of smoke indicates.

Uh, yeah, I already gave a similar quote about cloud level from The Shadow Rising... But cloud level is not a very specific indicator of mountain height, since the cloud level can vary pretty significantly, probably even more so than the tree line, which I used previously to give an estimate of the height of Dragonmount.

We can't use the snowline as an indicator as this quote will show:

One week to the day after Gitara made her Foretelling, the weather warmed suddenly. The sun rose in a cloudless sky on what seemed like a cool spring day, and before sunset most of the snow had melted. All of it was gone around Dragonmount, except on the very peak. The ground around the mountain had its own warmth, and snow always melted there first.

Shot in the dark, the maps are somewhat innacurate as Dragonmount must be closer than 40 miles (probably in the 10-20 mile range) and its likely at least 40-50 K in height (more than half of it above the clouds).

40-50K feet in height seems quite high and probably a significant overestimate, based on the tree line data that I reported before - unless you have some data about the cloud level that I am not aware of.

Why would the old Aes Sedai chose to build Tar Valon in the path of a potential volcano? I know that modern AS don't know a lot about earth as its a power they are generally weak in but Tar Valon was built shorlty after the breaking. Surely the general AS knowledge base was better then that now comming so soon after the AoL.

Why in the present time have we decided to build cities on earthquake fault lines? Or on the coast where hurricanes may strike? Tar Valon has particular usefulness as a port city on the River Erinin, so that is probably one of the reasons why it was built there.

Do we have any foreshadowing or indications that might suggest that Dragonmount will violently erupt at or around the time of Tarmon Gai'don?

Terez already indicated one of the foreshadowing moments. And RJ has been foreshadowing some sort of event with Dragonmount for some time... For example, the volcano has been smoking throughout the series:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 18 - To the White Tower

The island was so big it looked more as if the river split in two than contained a bit of land. Bridges that seemed to be made of lace arched from either bank to the island, crossing marshy ground as well as the river. The walls of the city, the Shining Walls of Tar Valon, glistened white as the sun broke through the clouds. And on the west bank, its broken top leaking a thin wisp of smoke, Dragonmount reared black against the sky, one mountain standing among flat lands and rolling hills. Dragonmount, where the Dragon had died. Dragonmount, made by the Dragon's dying.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

North and west the wind blew beneath early morning sun, over endless miles of rolling grass and far-scattered thickets, across the swift-flowing River Luan, past the broken-topped fang of Dragonmount, mountain of legend towering above the slow swells of the rolling plain, looming so high that clouds wreathed it less than halfway to the smoking peak. Dragonmount, where the Dragon had died - and with him, some said, the Age of Legends - where prophecy said he would be born again. Or had been. North and west, across the villages of Jualdhe and Darein and Alindaer, where bridges like stone lacework arched out to the Shining Walls, the great white walls of what many called the greatest city in the world. Tar Valon. A city just touched by the reaching shadow of Dragonmount each evening.

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 30 - Beginnings

"It has begun," Egwene agreed. And the Light willing, soon Elaida would fall. She was supposed to wait until Bryne said sufficient of his soldiers were through, but she could not stop herself. Digging her heels into Daishar’s flanks, she rode through into the falling snow, onto the plain where Dragonmount reared black and smoking against a white sky.

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 16 - The Subject of Negotiations

The land tended upward from the River Erinin, not in hills but simply rising toward the monstrous peak that loomed to the west, so massive it seemed to mock the name mountain. Dragonmount would have towered above everything else even in the Spine of the World; in the relatively flat country around Tar Valon, its white-capped crest seemed to reach the heavens, especially when a thin thread of smoke was streaming away from the jagged top as it was now. A thin thread at that height would be something else entirely, close at hand. Trees gave out less than halfway up Dragonmount, and no one had ever succeeded in reaching the crest or even coming close, though it was said the slopes were littered with the bones of those who had tried. Why anyone would try in the first place, no one could quite explain. Sometimes the long evening shadow of the mountain stretched all the way to the city. People who lived in the region were accustomed to Dragonmount dominating the sky, much as they were accustomed to the White Tower looming above the city walls and visible for miles. Both were unchanging fixtures that had always been there and always would be, but crops and crafts occupied the people’s lives, not mountains or Aes Sedai.

And in Knife of Dreams, we learn that the volcano is now spewing ash and sulfur:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 1 - When Last Sounds

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose above the broken mountain named Dragonmount. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

Born beneath the glow of a fat, sinking moon, at an altitude where men could not breathe, born among writhing currents heated by the fires inside the ragged peak, the wind was a zephyr in the beginning, yet it gained in strength as it rushed down the steep, rugged slope. Carrying ash and the stench of burning sulfur from the heights, the wind roared across the sudden, snowy hills that reared from the plain surrounding the impossible height of Dragonmount, roared and tossed trees in the night.

So it would not be surprising at all for an eruption to occur in the near future...

[Davian93]

Yes, Davian, I am aware of the height of Mt. St. Helens before and after May 18, 1980... I lived in the Pacific Northwest for a time, and also, when I was an undergraduate, we analyzed the elemental composition of fly ash from Mt. St. Helens. So the Mt. St. Helens eruption became a special interest of mine.

At any rate, sure, Mt. St. Helens is likely much smaller in height than Dragonmount. But you're assuming that there's some sort of linear relationship between the height of the volcano and the size of its blast zone. How do you know this? As far as I know, there is no such linear relationship.

EDIT: I was completely unaware of your above experience with the mountain...sounds pretty cool. I hiked the rim back in 2003 and it was eery to say the least. Though the trail I hiked was closed the next year due to new activity within the mountain. Intersting stuff to say the least.

There might not be a specific linear relationship but we have a massive volcano that has been building up for 3500 years for a massive eruption. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and think that the eruption will be larger.

On the elevation thing, based on that shadow estimator, I'm gonna revise the height to the 30-40 K range as we're estimating a shadow of nearly 40 miles.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Do we count on a flat Earth, or have you taken the curvature of the surface into account in the calculations?

[Weird Harold]

At any rate, sure, Mt. St. Helens is likely much smaller in height than Dragonmount. But you're assuming that there's some sort of linear relationship between the height of the volcano and the size of its blast zone. How do you know this? As far as I know, there is no such linear relationship.

I haven't done any kind of detailed comparison, but St Hellens and Mazama are similar volcanos and the two maps linked so far suggest that the relationship is not linear. It is probably linear with respect to the volume of the magma chamber, but the size of the mountain doesn't really indicate anything about the size of the magma chamber -- although Mazama lost 2,500-3,000 feet more elevation and produced a lot more pumice deposits over a wider area.

If there is any kind of relationship of cone elevation to magma chamber volume, it may well be a cube function -- twice the magma chamber diameter == six times the magma volume.

How much magma would Dragonmount have to eject to collaspe down to a flat plain (a la Yellowstone Super volcano) as it was before LTT's suicide? Could any trace of Tar Valon survive if Dragonmount dies with LTT's second death?

[Davian93]

Do we count on a flat Earth, or have you taken the curvature of the surface into account in the calculations?

That's far far beyond my mathematical abilities. So if anyone wants to take a crack at it, please feel free.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Considering that the horizon is at about 3 miles when you're looking out over the sea from the beach, I would say that the curvature is definitely relevant.

[Davian93]

Considering that the horizon is at about 3 miles when you're looking out over the sea from the beach, I would say that the curvature is definitely relevant.

Again, far beyond my abilities. Its clearly relevant but I dont have that ability.

[Marie Curie 7]

EDIT: I was completely unaware of your above experience with the mountain...sounds pretty cool. I hiked the rim back in 2003 and it was eery to say the least. Though the trail I hiked was closed the next year due to new activity within the mountain. Intersting stuff to say the least.

When I visited Mt. St. Helens in 1990, almost all the roads and trails providing direct access to the volcano were still closed, 10 years after the eruption. We could only get a view of the crater and surrounding areas from a distance. But yeah, it was eerie.

There might not be a specific linear relationship but we have a massive volcano that has been building up for 3500 years for a massive eruption. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and think that the eruption will be larger.

Well, consider Mt. Pinatubo. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pinatubo):

Before the catastrophic eruption of 1991, Pinatubo was an inconspicuous volcano, unknown to most people in the surrounding areas. Its summit was 1,745 m (5,725 ft) above sea level, but only about 600 m above nearby plains, and about 200 m higher than surrounding peaks, which largely obscured it from view.

So, Pinatubo's summit was only 5700 ft compared to Mt. St. Helens at 9700 ft pre-eruption. Yet the 1991 eruption of Mt. Pinatubo was the second largest eruption in the 20th century, much larger than that of Mt. St. Helens in 1980. The sulfur aerosols ejected into the atmosphere during the Pinatubo eruption led to a measurable global temperature drop of about 0.5 C during the months after the eruption. No such effect was observed with Mt. St. Helens.

So yeah, I would say that the relationship between height of peak and size of eruption is nonlinear. It depends more on things like Weird Harold mentioned - size of magma chamber - as well as time since last eruption, and so on. As Terez noted earlier in the thread, 3000 years is a very long time for a volcano of this type to go without a significant eruption. And unless records of the eruptions of Dragonmount were lost over time, or unless the White Tower has such records tucked away in its library somewhere, there were no known eruptions during that time. So I agree that Dragonmount is due for a major eruption – I just don't think that we can easily estimate how big that eruption is going to be...

[Davian93]

I agree. I think we might be able to guess that it would be devastating enough to destroy or damage Tar Valon though if only for plot significance.

Hiking the rim of the crater was an eery experience to say the least...as was hiking around Spirit Lake and climbing over all the felled trees that were still there 20+ years later.

[Marie Curie 7]

Originally posted by Marie Curie 7
55N latitude seems rather high for the location of Tar Valon. Cities in the real world at about that latitude include Moscow and Copenhagen. I really don't recall Tar Valon winters being as difficult as those in Moscow, for example.

The WOT seems to be warmer than the R/W as far as difficult winters are concerned. I don't think even the borderlands have winters as bad as Moscow.

The map on pg 146 is the checkerboard world Map Terez linked in another thread. Each of those checkerboard squares is fifteen degrees as best as anyone can tell and Dragonmount is about three and two thirds squares above the equator.

It's not at all clear to me that each square on the checkerboard map equals 15 degrees latitude - in fact, I'm pretty sure that it's more likely that each square represents more like 10 degrees, maybe 11 or 12. The reason is that the squares are left off the northern and southern ice caps. Since they have to be included, that's at least two more squares at the top and two more at the bottom. My guess is that a little bit is also truncated from the top and bottom of the map, just like a little bit is truncated on the sides.

So I would suggest that the intent of the mapmaker was to have each square equal 10 degrees, with nine squares above and below the equator. That would place Dragonmount at about 37N rather than 55N, and that makes a whole more sense to me with respect to the climate around Dragonmount and Tar Valon. (And the reason why we don't see any place in Randland with really tough winters is that the Blight is where those cities with bad winters would be located.)

Even if we assume only eight squares above and below the equator, then each square would equal 11.25 degrees, and that would place Dragonmount at about 41N, still much more sensible, in my opinion, than 55N.

[Davian93]

The Borderlands have trees that explode from the sap freezing. That sounds like Boreal Forest to me (i.e. Canadia). 37 degrees is way too low for Tar Valon.

Its a flat map of a round globe so there's likely massive distortions in it...take this map for example:

http://www.jsu.edu/depart/geography/mhill/phygeogone/ltlng.jpg

[Weird Harold]

if we assume only eight squares above and below the equator, then each square would equal 11.25 degrees, and that would place Dragonmount at about 41N, still much more sensible, in my opinion, than 55N.

The map could be distorted in the vertical axis, but with the scale of 1,000 mi/per square at the equator, for a equatorial circumference of 24,000 miles, it looks to me as if there is simply more ice cap depicted than actually exists.

What is the length of Equator? - Yahoo! Answers
Jun 25, 2007 ... The length of Earth's equator is about 40075.0 km, or 24901.5 miles. The exact length is 40075016.6856 m in WGS-84, and 40075035.5351 m in IAU-2000. ...

The map scale shows 8,000 miles to the top of the map and to the bottom of the map which would represent a polar circumference of 32,000 miles. The edge of the polar ice pack at the longitutde of Dragonmount is 5,500 miles from the equator which would leave a north polar icecap roughly a thousand miles in diameter on real-world planetary dimensions.

The map is not scaled as accurately as the year 2000 measurement of the Earth's equator (which is "accurate to the milimeter")

If the WOT globe is 36,000 miles in circumference, then the map is scaled at ten degrees/block, but if it is "a future/past version of our own world" with a roughly 24,000 (wot) mile equator, then fifteen degree increments make more sense given the 1,000 mile per block scale on the map.

[Marie Curie 7]

Its a flat map of a round globe so there's likely massive distortions in it...take this map for example:

Yeah, I know about map projections. :rolleyes:

But that still doesn't address the question. Weird Harold was counting as 90 degrees in latitude the six squares from the equator to the north pole (thus the designation of 15 degrees per square). That leaves out the northern ice cap entirely (and similarly, the southern ice cap would be left out counting to the south). So does the northern ice cap count as zero degrees in latitude? Obviously, it can't, so that means that Dragonmount cannot be located at 55N latitude.

So, how do you suggest that we count the squares in latitude on the checkerboard map and account for the ice caps? You've indicated more or less indirectly that you think my suggestions are not any good...so please, provide an alternative suggestion if you think mine are incorrect.

My point is that since the ice caps were not counted, the latitude for Dragonmount (and also Tar Valon) must be less than 55N. And I provided alternate methods for counting: a total of nine squares from the equator to the pole, 10 degrees per square, or alternately, a total of eight squares from equator to pole, 11.25 degrees per square. This was working under Weird Harold's assumption that each square on the map represented an equal amount of latitude.

If you would like to assume, using your example map projection of the world, that latitude is not evenly spaced on the map, it really doesn't make that much difference. That's because, if you look at the map you provided, the spacing between 0 and 60 degrees is roughly equal (though there is some increase in spacing between 45 and 60 degrees). And that's exactly the region that Weird Harold is suggesting is evenly spaced on the WoT map - so there's really no significant change in the conclusions that I reached, which proves my point that Dragonmount must be located below 55N latitude.

The Borderlands have trees that explode from the sap freezing. That sounds like Boreal Forest to me (i.e. Canadia). 37 degrees is way too low for Tar Valon.

The other suggestion that I made was that Dragonmount would be located at about 41N (assuming 11.25 degrees per square, so that the six squares shown above the equator encompass 67.5 degrees. Tar Valon is a bit above Dragonmount, and most of the Borderlands would be north of Tar Valon.

In the real world, Chicago, Detroit, and Boston are all at about 42N latitude, which in my opinion matches pretty well with the climate of Tar Valon. Many of the Borderland cities would fall about 45-50N latitude, which is comparable to the location of real world cities such as Minneapolis, Montreal, and Winnepeg.

At any rate, you're obviously welcome to come up with an alternative solution, but it has to account for the polar ice caps, which have been so far neglected. Even if we were to assume that the six squares in the northern hemisphere represented 75 degrees of latitude, then that would be 12.5 degrees per square, and would place Dragonmount at about 46N latitude, still nearly 10 degrees less than Weird Harold's location of 55N.

[GonzoTheGreat]

In the real world, Chicago, Detroit, and Boston are all at about 42N latitude, which in my opinion matches pretty well with the climate of Tar Valon. Many of the Borderland cities would fall about 45-50N latitude, which is comparable to the location of real world cities such as Minneapolis, Montreal, and Winnepeg.To be honest, that is a rather America-centered view of climate.

I'm living at about 52N, and I've never ever had a winter severe enough to come close to exploding trees.

Moscow, which can be rather cold, but doesn't have exploding trees as far as I'm aware of either (could be wrong, here) is at 55N.

Then there is the issue of the unnaturally hot Blight, which will undoubtedly mess up weather patterns severely. All in all, there is an uncertainty of at least a dozen degrees in latitude when you try to use climate, I would say.

[Weird Harold]

At any rate, you're obviously welcome to come up with an alternative solution,

Dragonmount is 3,700-3,750 WOT miles north of the equator according to the scale on that map.

3,700 / 24,900 (equatorial circumference of Earth) == 0.148~ * 360 degrees == 53.49 degrees. Polar circumference is slighty less, so degree equivalent would be slightly more and I didn't convert WOT miles to RW Statute miles.

Whether 55 degrees acords with your conception of what winter should be like or not, it agrees with the scale of the map unless it is your contention that the circumference of the WOT is more than the RW planet.

[Davian93]

So, how do you suggest that we count the squares in latitude on the checkerboard map and account for the ice caps? You've indicated more or less indirectly that you think my suggestions are not any good...so please, provide an alternative suggestion if you think mine are incorrect.

I think WH's projections are far more accurate. 41 degrees latitude is far too south for that type of winter. 41 degrees is about where Philadelphia, PA is located (I used to live there so I go with what I know). If TV is at 41 degrees give or take, then that would make Andor more equivalent to the American South and we know that's not the case. We know Andor gets fairly tough winters (regular heavy snow) and we get the indication that Tear is the equivalent of a New Orleans type climate. Based on those observations, it makes far more sense that the Borderlands are more the equivalent to Canada or Russia when it comes to latitude so they must be in the mid 55 degrees range. I simply think the map is somewhat distorted the further you get north and south towards the poles. Considering that the swamps SE of Mayene are the only place we get even close to tropical climate (alligators, everglades esque foliage) that all fits in. Having TV at 41 degrees is far too low.

On the trees exploding thing, typically that happens at around 30-40 below (like upstate Minnesota on a really really cold day but more typical of a place like Alberta). Its something that only rarely happens in the Boreal Forests.

[Marie Curie 7]

More on the map…sorry for the delay in replying, but it's sometimes hard for me to do much posting during the week...

In the real world, Chicago, Detroit, and Boston are all at about 42N latitude, which in my opinion matches pretty well with the climate of Tar Valon. Many of the Borderland cities would fall about 45-50N latitude, which is comparable to the location of real world cities such as Minneapolis, Montreal, and Winnepeg.

To be honest, that is a rather America-centered view of climate.

I'm living at about 52N, and I've never ever had a winter severe enough to come close to exploding trees.

Moscow, which can be rather cold, but doesn't have exploding trees as far as I'm aware of either (could be wrong, here) is at 55N.

Then there is the issue of the unnaturally hot Blight, which will undoubtedly mess up weather patterns severely. All in all, there is an uncertainty of at least a dozen degrees in latitude when you try to use climate, I would say.

You do realize that I referred to Moscow being located at 55N in a previous post? But yes, in the post you quoted I only referred to North American cities because I was replying to Davian and he used Canada as an example, so I stuck with examples from the same continent. And FYI, the record low temperature for Moscow is -42 F (-41 C). Obviously, it doesn't get that cold there in the winter time that often, but it clearly does get pretty damn cold.

~shrug~ And besides, I was only using the climate around Dragonmount/Tar Valon as another potential indicator that there could be a problem with the predicted latitude of 55N for Dragonmount (see below and subsequent posts for even more specific information about the issues). But sure, using climate to make a firm determination of the latitude would be questionable in this case not only for the reasons that you mentioned, but also because we know that the Dark One has been messing with the global climate for a good portion of the series.

The point about the map is that the polar regions shown on the map have not been included at all in Weird Harold's determination that the latitude of Dragonmount is 55N, which means that the determination is incorrect regardless of how many degrees of latitude are assigned to the polar regions. He has been counting 15 degrees per square on the map, and with 6 squares shown on the map before we even get to the polar ice caps, that's already 90 degrees, which means that in his scheme there's not even any latitude assignment available for the ice caps.

If we wanted to make some assessment as to how big a range in latitude should be assigned to the polar regions on the WoT map, we might take a look at the map of the real world and the range of latitude taken up by the arctic and Antarctic circles. For the real world map, we would find that the Arctic and Antarctic Circles are defined to start at 66.5 degrees latitude N and S, respectively.

In the Antarctic Circle, most of the region is taken up by the Antarctic continent and ice shelves, so it would probably make some sense for the southern hemisphere to label the last square on the WoT map as ending around 66S latitude. But we have to ask whether or not we know if the regions around the poles are the same in the WoT world as in the real world. The answer is not specific, but we do have some information that the southern polar ice in the WoT world is massive and there might be land hidden under it, just like in the real world:

TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 15 - The World After the Breaking

There are three major continents, and an area of ice in each polar region. Our land, the Aiel Waste, and the land called Shara occupy one continent, and the Seanchan the second, much larger, which lies to the west far over the Aryth Ocean. An unnamed continent, known only from Sea Folk explorations, lies far to the south. A fourth continent may lie hidden beneath the massive ice of the southern polar regions, but it is unknown and likely to remain so.

In the northern hemisphere, the Arctic Circle in the real world starts at about 66.5N and encompasses bits of Russia, Canada, Greenland, Norway, etc. That sort of matches the WoT map, which shows the northern ice sheet extending down and touching the Blight in some places.

So, it seems that a reasonable approximation for the WoT map would be to mark the last square in the north as the position of the Arctic Circle and call it 66N (and do the same in the south to mark 66S). Thus, on the WoT map, there are 6 squares each north and south of the equator, denoting 0 to 66 degrees, which would correspond to 11 degrees per square. That places Dragonmount, about 3 2/3 squares up on the map, at 40 N by this estimate.

I don't really see any reason that the polar regions would encompass significantly less area in the WoT world than in the real world, particularly because of the statements about the massive southern ice in the BWB. One small adjustment that I could envision would be to push the position of the last squares on the map to 70N and 70S, making the scale 11.67 degrees per square. That doesn't change things very much, though, because by that calculation Dragonmount would be located at 43N rather than 40N, still a far cry from the original prediction of 55N.

[Neilbert]

I think WH's projections are far more accurate. 41 degrees latitude is far too south for that type of winter. 41 degrees is about where Philadelphia, PA is located (I used to live there so I go with what I know).

Why are you using modern climate to explain a world several ages in the future/past? Climate changes over time, especially given the time frames we are dealing with.

[Marie Curie 7]

I think WH's projections are far more accurate. 41 degrees latitude is far too south for that type of winter. 41 degrees is about where Philadelphia, PA is located (I used to live there so I go with what I know). If TV is at 41 degrees give or take, then that would make Andor more equivalent to the American South and we know that's not the case. We know Andor gets fairly tough winters (regular heavy snow) and we get the indication that Tear is the equivalent of a New Orleans type climate. Based on those observations, it makes far more sense that the Borderlands are more the equivalent to Canada or Russia when it comes to latitude so they must be in the mid 55 degrees range. I simply think the map is somewhat distorted the further you get north and south towards the poles. Considering that the swamps SE of Mayene are the only place we get even close to tropical climate (alligators, everglades esque foliage) that all fits in. Having TV at 41 degrees is far too low.

Yeah well, I used to live in Madison, WI (43.1N). I already noted in a previous post some of the other cities at 42-43N latitude (a similar latitude to Dragonmount, as Tar Valon would be), including Chicago (41.9N), Boston (42.4N), and Detroit (42.3N). Philadelphia, where you used to live, is actually located at 40.0N. In Madison, it is typical in the winter for the temperature to hit -20 to -25 F for a stretch (coldest I remember was -27F with -67F wind chill). This certainly didn't happen on a regular basis over a long stretch of time during the entire winter, but it wasn't something that only happened once a decade, either. The record low in Madison is -38F.

On the trees exploding thing, typically that happens at around 30-40 below (like upstate Minnesota on a really really cold day but more typical of a place like Alberta). Its something that only rarely happens in the Boreal Forests.

Minneapolis is located at 45N, Fargo, ND, is at 47N, Winnepeg is at 50N, and Calgary is at 51N. These are all North American cities that would be north of Dragonmount if they were located in Randland in the region of the Borderlands, using my projections. And I would say that those cities certainly do have fairly rough winters. At any rate, the calculations I showed in the previous post regarding the polar regions of the checkerboard map make it pretty likely that Dragonmount cannot be located at 55N latitude.

With regard to southern type climates in WoT, RJ noted this:

Lord of Chaos book tour Fall 1994 - Eric Piquette reporting

I asked RJ where the equator was in Randland. He then pointed to Illian on a map and said that it corresponded approximately to the Florida Keys.

From this we know that Illian is around the latitude of the Florida Keys, and Key West, for example, is located at 24.6N latitude. Using my projections, and placing Dragonmount at 43 N (assuming 11.67 degrees of latitude per square on the map), here are the estimated locations of a few cities:

Tar Valon (3.7 squares) - 43N
Cairhien (3.3 squares) - 39N
Caemlyn (3.1 squares) - 36N
Tear (2.2 squares) - 26N
Ebou Dar (2.1 squares) - 25N
Illian (2.0 squares) - 23N

Note that these are really crude estimates, and I've rounded to the nearest degree of latitude, because the map is so small, and other than Dragonmount, none of the cities are explicitly marked. So I just estimated their locations from other WoT maps. As a result, the locations are probably good to a couple degrees latitude at best.

At any rate, regardless of the crudeness of the estimates of city locations, we see that my estimate of the location of Illian, for example, is within 2 degrees of the latitude of Key West. I would say that is very reasonable agreement, given the coarseness of the map.

-------

With respect to map projections, and whether or not the map is more distorted as the poles are approached: again, even if the map is not linear along the vertical scale, Dragonmount still can't be located at 55N. There are 90 degrees of north latitude, and placing Dragonmount at 55N came from the assumption that ALL 90 degrees of north latitude were accounted for by the six squares above the equator, using 15 degrees per square. Since 6x15=90 degrees, that's the entirety of the north latitude already, before any account of the polar region is included. And if the polar regions are counted as only 10 degrees of latitude, for example, even that isn't possible with all 90 degrees already taken in Weird Harold's model.

In addition, I noted previously that even if we were to assume that the vertical scale is not linear, using as an example the projection of the real world on the map posted previously, the region of north latitude that we are discussing (from 0 to about 60N or so) is fairly linear. I downloaded the real world map that was posted and measured the scale. From 0 to 30N, the scale is 2.5 pixels per degree latitude, and from 30 to 60N, the scale increases somewhat to 3.3 pixels per degree. However, it is not until the region from 60 to 75N that the scale changes more significantly to about 6.7 pixels per degree. So we see that away from the poles, the scale changes slowly for the low to mid latitudes, but not by a huge amount. This slowly varying region would correspond on the WoT map to the region from roughly the equator to the Blight; thus, it is probably not at all inappropriate to assume a roughly linear scale for the WoT map in that region, particularly given the coarseness of the map. And of course, if you want to use a nonlinear scale, then the squares are no longer all equal to 1000 miles as you go up from the equator.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

Why are you using modern climate to explain a world several ages in the future/past? Climate changes over time, especially given the time frames we are dealing with.


BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HARD CORE FAN FREAKS DO TO ENTERTAIN THEMSELVES AND EACH OTHER

jeeeeeeeez :D

[Marie Curie 7]

The map could be distorted in the vertical axis, but with the scale of 1,000 mi/per square at the equator, for a equatorial circumference of 24,000 miles, it looks to me as if there is simply more ice cap depicted than actually exists.

My point is that the map probably has to be distorted in the vertical axis - more specifically, it seems fairly likely that the vertical mileage scale at the very least has to be different than the horizontal one, even if a linear vertical scale is assumed. That's one of the reasons that I have been trying to argue most of the placements based upon latitude rather than mileage.

The map scale shows 8,000 miles to the top of the map and to the bottom of the map which would represent a polar circumference of 32,000 miles. The edge of the polar ice pack at the longitutde of Dragonmount is 5,500 miles from the equator which would leave a north polar icecap roughly a thousand miles in diameter on real-world planetary dimensions.

A polar circumference of 32,000 miles doesn't make much sense if we assume that the equatorial circumference is about 24,000 or 25,000 miles (based on 23.5 squares around the equator and 1000 miles per square in the horizontal direction), unless the WoT world is much different than earth. A couple of the options that we have for dealing with this apparent discrepancy are: (1) that the polar regions shown on the map shouldn't be considered because they are overstated on the map (as you have concluded), making for a polar circumference of about 24,000 miles (assuming 1000 miles per square); or, (2) that the polar regions on the map should be included, which means that the vertical scale cannot be the same as the horizontal scale of 1 square=1000 miles (assuming a polar circumference of about 24,000 miles).

The arguments presented in my previous two posts show that the polar regions of the WoT world are described as similar to those of earth; thus, conclusion (2) seems to be the more likely of the two options.

The Arctic and Antarctic regions are each about 3300 miles in diameter in the real world, measuring the distance across the Arctic and Antarctic circles at 66.5 degrees. This is based on the assumption of a 25,000 mile circumference, which yields 69.4 miles per degree of latitude. Measuring from 70 degrees latitude, each polar region has a diameter of about 2800 miles.

At any rate, assuming that the polar regions are similar in size on the WoT and real worlds based on the information presented in the BWB, the estimate that was made of 1000 mile diameter polar regions seems particularly low, by a factor of 2 or 3.

If the WOT globe is 36,000 miles in circumference, then the map is scaled at ten degrees/block, but if it is "a future/past version of our own world" with a roughly 24,000 (wot) mile equator, then fifteen degree increments make more sense given the 1,000 mile per block scale on the map.

Looking at the problem in another way, the average width of the polar regions on the WoT map seems to be about 2 squares in the north and the south. Adding two squares for the northern ice and two squares for the southern ice would make the map 16 squares from north to south. So, 180 degrees / 16 squares = 11.25 degrees per square, assuming a linear scale. Assuming a polar circumference of 25,000 miles yields 781.25 miles/square (and 69.44 miles/degree). [If you want to assume a polar circumference of 24,000 miles, then you get 750 miles/square and 66.67 miles/degree.]

Finally, given 781.25 miles per square, and a polar region of 2 squares, the diameter of the polar ice region would be calculated to be about 3125 miles by my projections, very similar to earth's polar regions. And both of the polar regions would be calculated to start at about 67.5 degrees, again very close to the positions of the Arctic and Antarctic circles on earth.

The map is not scaled as accurately as the year 2000 measurement of the Earth's equator (which is "accurate to the milimeter")

No kidding. :rolleyes: However, even given the coarseness of the map, it certainly seems possible to distinguish errors of 10 degrees or so in latitude, since that would correspond to an error of around one square regardless of which model is used.

Dragonmount is 3,700-3,750 WOT miles north of the equator according to the scale on that map.

3,700 / 24,900 (equatorial circumference of Earth) == 0.148~ * 360 degrees == 53.49 degrees. Polar circumference is slighty less, so degree equivalent would be slightly more and I didn't convert WOT miles to RW Statute miles.

By your own calculations, using the scale on the map to measure vertical distances doesn't really work out very well because it would lead to a polar circumference of greater than 24,000 miles. Even without the polar regions there are 12 squares for 180 degrees of latitude, which would lead to a circumference of more than 24,000 miles when the polar regions are included if it is assumed that 1 square = 1000 miles in the vertical direction.

Using my model, Dragonmount is about 2800-2900 miles north of the equator, and 2900 / 25,000 (circumference of earth) = 0.116 * 360 degrees = 41.8 degrees (and this estimate is based on 11.25 degrees/square rather than 11.67 degrees/square).

Whether 55 degrees acords with your conception of what winter should be like or not, it agrees with the scale of the map unless it is your contention that the circumference of the WOT is more than the RW planet.

Nope. It is [i]not my contention that the circumferences of the WoT world and real world are different. In fact, given the link between our world and the WoT world (future/past earth, etc.), I would expect that the circumferences are similar. As I explained in detail above and in my previous posts, it's more likely that the vertical scale is not the same as the horizontal scale on the checkerboard map.

[Weird Harold]

The Arctic and Antarctic regions are each about 3300 miles in diameter in the real world, measuring the distance across the Arctic and Antarctic circles at 66.5 degrees. This is based on the assumption of a 25,000 mile circumference, which yields 69.4 miles per degree of latitude.

You're confusing the Arctic/Antarctic circles with the polar icecaps. The Mts of Dhoom circle the WOT globe at approximately the line of the arctic circle by my calculations or just slightly south. That places the majority of the Blight in the Arctic circle and the conditions in the Blight are not described as arctic -- which would suggest tthat the Icecaps are probably not as extensive as the real-world's icecaps. The general shortage of land-mass on the map would also suggest a higher sea level than the real world.

As for the possibility of different milage scales for latitude and longitude, I think the fact that the proportions of the various smaller scale maps of the westlands, Shara, Aiel waste, etc are the same as the world map precludes that interpretation.

But, Unless the smaller maps also have a different vertical scale than the horizontal scale so that they're useless for calculating distances then the World map has to have a single scale for all directions.

The only way to reconcile the world map to the other maps in the BWB is if the extent of the northern icecap is no more than a thousand miles or so and the actual icecaps are much smaller than the real-world's icecaps -- even if the axial tilt and Arctic Circle are the same.

The WOT World map probably has some extensive errors in the e/w sea distances in the extremes of latitude, because not distorting the land masses means the seas must be distorted. The blight might well be exagerated as well, since I doubt that there have been many accurate maps made of that area.

Below the Mts of Dhoom though, there are numerous maps with known distances to be represented -- which the world map does represent in proportion.

[Marie Curie 7]

You're confusing the Arctic/Antarctic circles with the polar icecaps. The Mts of Dhoom circle the WOT globe at approximately the line of the arctic circle by my calculations or just slightly south. That places the majority of the Blight in the Arctic circle and the conditions in the Blight are not described as arctic -- which would suggest tthat the Icecaps are probably not as extensive as the real-world's icecaps. The general shortage of land-mass on the map would also suggest a higher sea level than the real world.

No, actually I am not confusing the Arctic and Antarctic circles with the polar icecaps. Consider a map of Antarctica:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/antarctica.jpg

As I already noted previously, the bulk of the Antarctic circle is taken up by the Antarctic continent and its associated ice shelves. In this case, it is pretty clear that the southern polar ice cap in the real world is equivalent to essentially the entirety of the Antarctic circle. And contrary to your assumption that the ice caps are NOT as extensive in the WoT world as in the real world, I already presented evidence from the BWB to suggest that the southern polar ice region is massive and there is land underneath, just like in the real world.

Futhermore, when we examine a map of the Arctic circle, we see that it is defined in the same way as the Antarctic circle (i.e., starting at 66.5 degrees latitude), even though there is no continent there:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/arctic.gif

You can see that the sketch of the polar ice cap in the image of the Arctic circle is a bit smaller than the circle itself. But remember that I calculated most of my results based upon a diameter measured from 70 degrees latitude, not 66.5 degrees. Furthermore, the polar ice cap in the northern hemisphere is estimated to be 9-12 million km^2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_ice_cap), depending on the season. This corresponds to a diameter of 2100-2400 miles, a bit smaller than the Antarctic circle, but again about a factor of 2-3 times larger than your suggestion, as I mentioned before.

Also, even though the Blight exists in the WoT world and not in the real world, it doesn't appear to significantly impact the climate directly to the south of the Blight:

TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: Shienar

Shienar is a place of strong contrasts. In the far northeast, flanked by the Mountains of Dhoom and the Spine of the Dragon, it is a last bastion of civilization on the razor's edge of the bleak corruption of the Blight and the dangers of the Aiel Waste. Winters there are cold enough to cause trees to burst as their sap freezes, yet only a short distance away the Blight shelters in unnatural heat oppressive enough to drain a strong man's will.

Since I can show that the Blight does not impact the severe winter weather of Shienar directly to the south, you will have to prove that it impacts the weather to the north in any significant way. Otherwise, without proof to the contrary, I think we have to assume that since the unnatural heat in the Blight is due to the corruption of the Dark One, it does not impact the climate outside that region. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that the polar regions in the north of the WoT world are any different than those of the real world.

Also, I have already shown, based on the BWB, that the southern ice caps in the WoT and real worlds are suggested to be roughly the same size. And from the map of Antarctica, we have seen that the Antarctic circle in the real world is essentially equivalent to the southern ice cap. On the checkerboard WoT map, the southern ice cap encompasses about 2 squares of latitude and the northern ice cap has is about the same size. It only makes sense to conclude, therefore, that the northern and southern ice caps, and as a result the WoT circles corresponding to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, are roughly the same size as in the real world.

Next, you said in this post that you have assumed that the Mountains of Dhoom are located at about the position of the Arctic circle. But again, this is based on your assumption that there are 15 degrees of latitude per square, which is clearly wrong regardless of how many degrees of latitude you assign to the polar regions, as I have indicated multiple times. And this is a major issue with your analysis that you have failed to address, other than by indirectly noting that you think the polar ice caps are smaller in the WoT world than in the real world (for which you have no evidence); however, I have shown that it is pretty likely that the ice caps are similar in the WoT and real worlds. At any rate, your explanation still avoids the issue since you are still counting 15 degrees per square on the map. And technically, even if you only assign 1 degree of latitude to the polar ice regions, that assumption is incorrect.

As for the possibility of different milage scales for latitude and longitude, I think the fact that the proportions of the various smaller scale maps of the westlands, Shara, Aiel waste, etc are the same as the world map precludes that interpretation.

Really? Would you like to prove that the scale on the checkerboard map is the same as the scales on the other maps for latitude and longitude? From my analysis, there is a range of scales. On the various maps, I measured two distances, one purely east-west and one purely north-south, and then I took the ratio of the N-S to E-W distances in pixels. The distances that I used were N-S: from the Mountains of Dhoom directly south to the coast at Illian; and E-W: from Falme to the Spine of the World. These are the results for the N-S to E-W ratios:

Checkerboard (BWB p. 146 - 0.785
Full detail map - 0.807 (see map below*)
BWB p. 15 - 0.841
BWB p. 19 - 0.821
BWB p. 148 - 0.906
BWB p. 207 - 0.797
BWB p .209 - 0.799
BWB p. 210 - 0.789

So, excluding the checkerboard map, the range of aspect ratios for the N-S / E-W distances is 0.79 - 0.91, or about a 15% variation overall; thus, we see that the maps are not all uniform in their aspect ratios as you had suggested.

The estimated aspect ratio for the checkerboard map, assuming equal horizontal and vertical distance scales, is calculated to be about 0.79, close to the lower end of the range of the other maps. If the vertical axis is assumed to be different from the horizontal axis of the checkerboard map, then the ratio will be lower, but not out of line given the coarseness of the map in this case.

But, Unless the smaller maps also have a different vertical scale than the horizontal scale so that they're useless for calculating distances then the World map has to have a single scale for all directions.

The only way to reconcile the world map to the other maps in the BWB is if the extent of the northern icecap is no more than a thousand miles or so and the actual icecaps are much smaller than the real-world's icecaps -- even if the axial tilt and Arctic Circle are the same.

Nope. As I noted above, there is a range of N-S / E-W aspect ratios in the maps. And besides, most of the maps do not include any mileage scale whatsoever. And I already presented the evidence regarding the size of the ice caps.

The WOT World map probably has some extensive errors in the e/w sea distances in the extremes of latitude, because not distorting the land masses means the seas must be distorted. The blight might well be exagerated as well, since I doubt that there have been many accurate maps made of that area.

In another thread, I already showed that the distance from Randland to Seanchan was represented reasonably well on the checkerboard map. And in that thread, you based your arguments on a linear interpretation of the longitudinal scale, with 1000 miles per square. Sorry, but you can't really argue for "extensive errors" in the east-west distances in this thread and promote a linear, essentially error free interpretation of east-west distances in the other thread - you can't have it both ways.

Below the Mts of Dhoom though, there are numerous maps with known distances to be represented -- which the world map does represent in proportion.

Again, the results that I presented above for the N-S / E-W aspect ratios show that your assumption that all the maps represent this proportion in the same way is false.

* Edit: forgot the "full detail map". Here is the map to which I am referring.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/wotfulldetailmap.jpg

[Weird Harold]

Again, the results that I presented above for the N-S / E-W aspect ratios show that your assumption that all the maps represent this proportion in the same way is false.

You're expecting an awful lot of consistency from hand-drawn, flat-earth maps. :rolleyes:

* Edit: forgot the "full detail map". Here is the map to which I am referring.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/wotfulldetailmap.jpg

I'm not sure what point the full detail map is supposed to support, but you do know that the version you linked only has that hundred league scale bar because I added it to a map I found online (and expanded to the huge size you presumably shrank it down from.

I'm not sure what reference points you used to compare the aspect ratios, but the scale on the "big detail map" was produced by averaging the discrepancies between internal map points -- Dragonmount, TarValon, Ebou Dar, Tear, Falme and a couple of other points I don't recall off-hand -- on all of the westalnd maps from different eras and the different versions of "current" WOT maps (like the different flyleaf maps) as scanned and posted on the web.

IIRC, the original of that map is from the WOTRPG and thus not strictly "canon" but, as modified by me, is the only westlands map available with a scale bar that I know of.

[Marie Curie 7]

You're expecting an awful lot of consistency from hand-drawn, flat-earth maps. :rolleyes:

No actually, I'm not. In fact, I wasn't particularly surprised that there was some variation in the proportions of the different maps. I presented that analysis of the WoT maps because YOU stated AS FACT the following:

As for the possibility of different milage scales for latitude and longitude, I think the fact that the proportions of the various smaller scale maps of the westlands, Shara, Aiel waste, etc are the same as the world map precludes that interpretation.

So that particular analysis (of the aspect ratios) was done to show that the proportions of the various smaller scale maps are NOT all the same as the world map, in direct contradiction of your assertion about why my analysis of the different vertical scale on the checkerboard map couldn't possibly be correct.

I'm not sure what point the full detail map is supposed to support, but you do know that the version you linked only has that hundred league scale bar because I added it to a map I found online (and expanded to the huge size you presumably shrank it down from.

I was simply citing my sources, duh. All the other maps were in the BWB, so I could just give the page numbers for those, but the "full detail map" is not from the BWB obviously, so I felt it best to include it so those who were unfamiliar with it would know what I was talking about.

I'm not sure what reference points you used to compare the aspect ratios, but the scale on the "big detail map" was produced by averaging the discrepancies between internal map points -- Dragonmount, TarValon, Ebou Dar, Tear, Falme and a couple of other points I don't recall off-hand -- on all of the westalnd maps from different eras and the different versions of "current" WOT maps (like the different flyleaf maps) as scanned and posted on the web.

Here, you've verified my point that the scales on the various maps are not all the same, yet in the previous post, you asserted that they were.

And, the reference points that I used in my comparison of aspect ratios are given in my previous post.

[Weird Harold]

Here, you've verified my point that the scales on the various maps are not all the same, yet in the previous post, you asserted that they were.

Fine, I'm absolutely devastated that you have proven to the foot that all of those maps are two-thirds the size vertically than they are horizontally as compared to the proportions of the world map.

I'm sure that the vertical scale was left off of the world map by accident and the fact that the squares ont he map are in fact square is just artistic license.

:rolleyes:

We're dealing with the equivalent of 17th century hand drawn maps, here. I didn't think that I needed to qualify "proportion" as in general range of proportion. The proportions of the individual maps are not squashed down two-thirds in one axis nor is the world map stretch fifty percent.

The world map is clearly drawn so that the vertical and horizontal scales are intended to be the same. If your interpretation of the vertical scale is correct then the horizontalscale has to be the same -- either the world is approximately 36,000 miles in polar and equatorial circumference or the world is roughly 24,000 in both directions.

You don't seem to have any problems with the logic that the equatorial distance is probably 24K and each horizontal division is thus one fifteen degree time zone. The way the map is drawn and presented, the vertical must be the same fifteen degree divisions.

Either the polar regions are distorted and oversized -- as was normal for Terra Incognita on period maps -- or the missing sea-gap between Seanchan and Shara is 12,000 miles instead of 500-700.

PS: The attachment is what I would expect the individual maps to look like if they were NOT proportional to the world map.

[Matoyak]

Question: could part of the problem be different aspect ratios on y'all's monitors? A friend and I did a test of several different "Squares" and various drawings, wallpapers, etc etc. and found that almost every ratio produced a different result, and some ratios that were supposedly the same pixels, on different monitors displayed a distortion noticeable enough for a mention.

I dunno, but working on "it's square" or whatnot could cause issues when dealing with computer monitors and various brands of monitor and various aspect ratios. Now, if both of y'all are looking at the map as it is printed in the BWB or something, that's different. But don't try to base distances, degree of latitudes, or anything like that off of something on the computer. Just my 2 cents...

[Weird Harold]

Question: could part of the problem be different aspect ratios on y'all's monitors?

No, Marie's measurements are consistent with hardcopies of the maps and I've been using the BWB because it's easier to use dividers on paper than it is glass.

Those maps I do have digital copies of are generally the same proportions on my monitor as the printed versions; any distortions due to monitor resolution are only a few pixels in scope.

[Marie Curie 7]

Fine, I'm absolutely devastated that you have proven to the foot that all of those maps are two-thirds the size vertically than they are horizontally as compared to the proportions of the world map.

You can discount it all you want by pretending that it's not a significant variation, but anyone who wants can look back and see that I'm talking about variations in scale of about 15-20%, not one foot out of hundreds or thousands of miles. And your comment about the maps all having the same scale was what you were using to suggest that my analysis was incorrect. Sorry, but if you state that the proportions are the same, then I have to assume that is exactly what you meant - not that they are only sort of the same. Furthermore, I have not stated that all the maps are two-thirds the size vertically that they are horizontally - I stated that the aspect ratios vary from map to map, meaning that the ratio of the vertical and horizontal scales is different from map to map.

I'm sure that the vertical scale was left off of the world map by accident and the fact that the squares ont he map are in fact square is just artistic license.

We're dealing with the equivalent of 17th century hand drawn maps, here. I didn't think that I needed to qualify "proportion" as in general range of proportion. The proportions of the individual maps are not squashed down two-thirds in one axis nor is the world map stretch fifty percent.

You don't seem to be following the gist of my analysis of the aspect ratios. In order to verify whether or not the N-S and E-W scales are the same on all the maps, I picked one north-south distance and one east-west distance and measured them in pixels on each map. I DID NOT state that the E-W and N-S distances that I measured were the same (that is, they are not both equal to 1000 miles, for example). However, if the ratio of vertical and horizontal scales is the same on all the maps, then the ratio of the N-S to E-W distances that I computed will be the same for all maps. That doesn't mean that the ratio has to be 1.0, just that the value is the same numerically, whether the ratio is 0.75 for all or 0.88 for all. If the calculated N-S / E-W aspect ratios are different, that means that the scaling in the vertical and horizontal directions varies from map to map. And that is exactly what I showed: that there are variations in the N-S and E-W scales on the different maps of up to about 15-20%. This means that even though you would like to argue that the horizontal and vertical scales on the checkerboard map ought to be the same because the scales are the same on all the other maps, this is not the case - the scales are not all the same.

And again, perhaps you are not understanding my argument because I have never stated that the any of the maps were "squashed down" by two-thirds or stretched by 50 percent. I said that the variation in the ratio of N-S to E-W scales on the different maps was about 15%. And if one square on the checkerboard map equals 1000 miles in the horizontal direction, the observed variation in map scales corresponds to a difference of about 150 miles, clearly discernable even on the coarse checkerboard map. And indeed, the change in the vertical scale that my analysis suggests (~780 miles per square) is a difference of 22% from the horizontal scale, similar in deviation to the variations that I computed for the other maps.

The world map is clearly drawn so that the vertical and horizontal scales are intended to be the same. If your interpretation of the vertical scale is correct then the horizontalscale has to be the same -- either the world is approximately 36,000 miles in polar and equatorial circumference or the world is roughly 24,000 in both directions.

Perhaps it was the intent of the mapmaker that the scales be the same in the vertical and horizontal directions. However, as I have pointed out again and again, the data suggests that the scales cannot be the same, and that your analysis of the vertical distances and latitudes is incorrect.

I have already addressed the 36,000 mile circumference argument, which you will see if you look back at my previous posts. The model that I presented is based on a circumference of 24,000 or 25,000 miles in both directions.

You don't seem to have any problems with the logic that the equatorial distance is probably 24K and each horizontal division is thus one fifteen degree time zone. The way the map is drawn and presented, the vertical must be the same fifteen degree divisions.

Unfortunately, all the evidence points against the divisions in the vertical direction corresponding to fifteen degrees each. The way the map is drawn and presented might suggest that the intent was to make the horizontal and vertical scales the same, but the evidence suggests that they can't be the same.

Again, I have already noted all the other evidence against 15-degree latitude divisions in previous posts, but even just focusing on the polar regions makes it clear that your assessment of the map is incorrect, so I will summarize this argument again, perhaps more clearly:

1. Your analysis of 15-degree divisions in latitude is based upon there being 6 squares of north and south latitude each on the map. Since 6x15 = 90 degrees, the six squares shown to the north of the equator cover the entire range of north latitude possible, 0 to 90N. Similarly, the six squares shown south of the equator cover the entire range of south latitude, 0 to 90S. There is no room in your interpretation for anything else, not land or ocean or ice.

2. Your analysis that assumes 15 degrees of latitude per square neglects the polar regions. It is your contention, though, that the polar regions on the map are distorted and oversized, and that each polar region is roughly only 1000 miles in diameter.

3. Using your own interpretation of the map, you have suggested that the north polar region, for example, is about 1000 miles in diameter, or 500 miles in radius. Thus, using your assertion that the scale on the map is the same in the horizontal and vertical directions, one square in the vertical direction must equal 1000 miles. So, a polar region with a radius of 500 miles has to correspond to half a square. Since you have stated that one square in the vertical region also must equal 15 degrees of latitude, then half a square corresponds to 7.5 degrees of latitude. Or in other words, the north and south polar regions are predicted by your own analysis to take up about 7.5 degrees of north and south latitude, respectively.

4. Since the six squares north of the equator already account for 90 degrees of north latitude according to your interpretation of the map, and the north polar region must account for about 7.5 degrees of latitude, again by your own interpretation, we have that 90 degrees (from the six squares shown on the map) + 7.5 degrees (polar region) = 97.5 degrees. The same holds for the south latitude.

Congratulations, Weird Harold, you have just invented 97N and 97S latitudes.

Either the polar regions are distorted and oversized -- as was normal for Terra Incognita on period maps -- or the missing sea-gap between Seanchan and Shara is 12,000 miles instead of 500-700.

No sorry, that is not an either/or proposition. I have already explained my reasoning and presented evidence from the BWB that suggests that the polar regions in WoT are roughly the same size as those of earth. See posts #90, #94, and #96, for example. And I have stated multiple times that my model is based upon equatorial and polar circumferences of about 24,000 to 25,000 miles - not 32,000 miles and not 36,000 miles.