Who else is "lucky with dice"?

[FelixPax]

I was reviewing KoD when I noticed this:

Jori Congar was trying to entice some of the others into a game of dice, but he was quiet about it, so Perrin let it pass. No one was accepting the offer anyway. Jori was uncommon lucky with his dice.

Are there other characters in the series, behinds Mat and Jori Congar who are "uncommon lucky with dice"? Or is the Two Rivers region unique in having lucky individuals, compared to other places? Sort of akin to the high percentage of individual who can channel the power?

[GonzoTheGreat]

According to the stories, Hawkwing was. Then there was Josef Najima in New Spring, who was lucky enough to draw the BA's attention to himself and his family.
There are some others too.

But we don't see all that many dice games, unless Mat is involved, and in that case it's better not to count on your own luck. So all in all, I would say this is just a selection effect.

[Terez]

I was reviewing KoD when I noticed this:



Are there other characters in the series, behinds Mat and Jori Congar who are "uncommon lucky with dice"? Or is the Two Rivers region unique in having lucky individuals, compared to other places? Sort of akin to the high percentage of individual who can channel the power?
Your observation technique here (and Gonzo's, apparently) is lacking. Jori is a Congar.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Your observation technique here (and Gonzo's, apparently) is lacking. Jori is a Congar.???
You are correct about the last part, but what's your point? The Congars do come from the TR, as far as I know.

[Terez]

The point is that he's not lucky with dice. He cheats.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Getting away with that is lucky, isn't it?

[Terez]

Apparently not, since no one will dice with him any more. :D

[Jokeslayer]

Getting away with that is lucky, isn't it?

Unless it's skill.

[Cary Sedai]

I should have gotten up early, I wanted to say your line, Terez!

~sniff~ Congars! :p

[Davian93]

The point is that he's not lucky with dice. He cheats.

Yup, that sums it up.

[Toss the dice]

I've always assumed it was because he cheats. I'd give it a 99% chance (or even more) that it is from that and not pure luck. He is a Congar.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

Personally, I always thought this was an interesting coincidence coming from Verin (while she is helping Rand with the Portal Stone markings):

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
You must choose. As my father would have said, it's time to roll the dice."


Who knows, maybe Verin's father was from the Two Rivers, long long ago.

[FelixPax]

Your observation technique here (and Gonzo's, apparently) is lacking. Jori is a Congar.

So the smart*** reply is no, Terez? :p

Thom will not dice will Mat either, as he knows just how lucky Mat is. Daise Congar isn't a cheater nor turncoat to the White Cloaks yet her last name is Congar too.

Just because there's a bunch of rotten apple's (Wit Congar, Bili Congar, Eward Congar)in the Two Rivers area with the name Congar, does not make all the Congars into thieves. Let alone determine their genetic make-up nor luck.

[Davian93]

So the smart*** reply is no, Terez? :p

Thom will not dice will Mat either, as he knows just how lucky Mat is. Daise Congar isn't a cheater nor turncoat to the White Cloaks yet her last name is Congar too.

Just because there's a bunch of rotten apple's (Wit Congar, Bili Congar, Eward Congar)in the Two Rivers area with the name Congar, does not make all the Congars into thieves. Let alone determine their genetic make-up nor luck.

Are you familiar with Occam's Razor?

RJ spent tons of time explaining in the storyline that Congars/Coplins are shady at best and a person like Daise is the exception. Thus, it makes far far more sense that its an issue with cheating (especially in the context of the story) than any type of Ta'veren effect.

[Marie Curie 7]

Not to mention that we know he's a thief and a drunk:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 5 - The Forging of a Hammer

Someone raised a halfhearted cry of "Goldeneyes!" but no one took it up, a thing that would have pleased Perrin a month gone. A great deal had changed since Faile was taken. Now their silence was leaden. Young Kenly Maerin, his cheeks still pale where he had scraped off his attempt at a beard, avoided meeting Perrin's eyes, and Jori Congar, lightfingered whenever he saw anything small and valuable and drunk whenever he could manage it, spat contemptuously as Perrin passed by. Ban Crawe punched Jori's shoulder for it, hard, but Ban did not look at Perrin either.

Makes it pretty likely that he cheats at dice, too. :)

[GonzoTheGreat]

So you're basically saying that he would have taken a pretty dagger if he'd been in Shadar Logoth at the wrong moment. So much for Mat's "luck", I guess. :p

[Terez]

Idiot, there's a huge difference between stealing from someone and taking something that doesn't belong to anyone.

[GonzoTheGreat]

And all the remarks how Mat has "the quickest hands Thom has ever seen" don't refer to the first?

[Neilbert]

Thom was teaching Mat how to juggle, and probably some knifework.

[Toss the dice]

It's obvious that Mat is "the luckiest man alive" in the books and also has close to or THE "quickest hands."

The above has nothing to do with the fact that Jori Congar is a thief, bad-apple, and cheater at dice. This is a stupid debate.

If you want to deny or try to argue these things, that's just fine. But you might as well argue against 99%+ of everything in the books that is "common knowledge." Remember, when an author (in this case RJ) implies something in a certain way (let alone multiple times over and over), the author might as well have made a clear-cut definitive statement on that subject. Think of it as English Composition 101. Very basic techniques.

[greatwolf]

Hey take it easy, it's just a suggestion. And he does have a basis to infer that the channeling ability and old blood in the 2R region could have led to interesting developments. I'll agree its more likely Jori was cheating but in TL, we do demand asbolute proof and I'm not sure we've given Felix that.

Just that we're of the opinion that since Congars are cheats, Jori luck with dice will be regarded cheating until proven otherwise.

I hope I managed not to agree with Terez here. :p

[Terez]

You're just pissed cause I won't let anyone forget you're vardene. :p

[greatwolf]

And the DR too?

How could you be so sweet?

[Enigma]

At the risk of going off topic does anyone have any thoughts why a cheeting, thieving, drunkard from a family with a bad rep would want to join up in a military force.

I can understand why Jori Congar would have faught in the Two Rivers. The fight came to him and his family but why head off into the big bad world with Perrin after the immediate danger passed?

With someone one else I could imagine that they wanted glory in fighting along side Perrin but a Congar? They don't seem that public spirited or into self sacrafice.

[Terez]

At the risk of going off topic does anyone have any thoughts why a cheeting, thieving, drunkard from a family with a bad rep would want to join up in a military force.
Because it's more interesting than sheep? Because he was in hot water at home? Higher dicing stakes outside the Two Rivers?

[Terez]

I've got it! Verin recruited him into the Darkfriend ranks and he's spying on Perrin for her!

[Neilbert]

No, she compelled him to spy on Perrin for her.

[greatwolf]

as an aside, was any of the coplins/congars named among those who could channel? Or had blood mixed with outside?

[GonzoTheGreat]

At the risk of going off topic does anyone have any thoughts why a cheeting, thieving, drunkard from a family with a bad rep would want to join up in a military force.To take his share of the loot?

I can understand why Jori Congar would have faught in the Two Rivers. The fight came to him and his family but why head off into the big bad world with Perrin after the immediate danger passed?Perrin had gone off in the same way, and he returned famous, rich and basically a king.

Jori has the choice: remain at home, as one thieving shepherd amongst many, or go off and take what he deserves to have.

With someone one else I could imagine that they wanted glory in fighting along side Perrin but a Congar? They don't seem that public spirited or into self sacrafice.I suspect he is quite willing to sacrifice others, though. And that's the whole point of being in an army: your job is not to die for your country, but to let the other bugger die for his.

[Enigma]

To take his share of the loot?

That makes sense. Given how loot has been thin on the ground though its a wonder why he has not tried to go home. I can't see Perrin trying him for desertion. Perhaps he figures it is safer to stay with the army and its channeling support rather that brave the long journey home on his own.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Once you've convinced yourself there is going to be loot, waiting just a few days more isn't that strange an occurrence.
Somewhere in the books Mat comments to himself on it, and notices there too that the loot his men are expecting hasn't materialised so far and is unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future either.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

Originally Posted by Enigma
At the risk of going off topic does anyone have any thoughts why a cheeting, thieving, drunkard from a family with a bad rep would want to join up in a military force.

The pull of ta'veren on the old blood of Manetheren would likely be pretty compelling. He might not really have a choice. Regardless of how disreputable someone is, underlying goodness & strenth in bad times tends to pop out of people.
When they are needed, they don't fail(e). Heh. Sorry, couldn't help it. :p

[Terez]

Once you've convinced yourself there is going to be loot, waiting just a few days more isn't that strange an occurrence.
Somewhere in the books Mat comments to himself on it, and notices there too that the loot his men are expecting hasn't materialised so far and is unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future either.
Yeah, the whole 'why the hell would anyone want to be a soldier' thing has been a theme for RJ. There are always reasons for it, in the real world, and I'm sure in the WoT world as well. It doesn't make much sense, but I think that RJ implied there was some sort of mysterious testosterone thing going on there. Something Mat would be lacking if he'd ever actually had to be a soldier. But he can handle being a general from the get-go.

[Davian93]

Its hard to explain. Looking back, I sometimes wonder why the hell I did it but at the time I absolutely loved it. Its like a special club and it makes you feel good about what you do...far more so than the average job. There's also the brotherhood aspect of it (which does really exist). We didn't do it for the pay and we sure as hell didn't do it for the glory. But RJ is completely correct on the topic and he of course knew first hand as a 2 tour Vietnam Vet.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Mat could manage it, as he showed during Barthanes' party. He just is smart enough to see that it usually isn't worthwhile, so he only soldiers on when that is actually what he has to do. Simply doing it because someone tells him to is not his thing.

[jason wolfbrother]

He wouldn't have stopped with the pretty dagger ;)

[Davian93]

Mat could manage it, as he showed during Barthanes' party. He just is smart enough to see that it usually isn't worthwhile, so he only soldiers on when that is actually what he has to do. Simply doing it because someone tells him to is not his thing.

Serious, WTF does that mean?!? All soldiers are dumb??? There is nothing wrong with being a soldier nor is it a sign of stupidity or a matter of "can't do anything else".

[GonzoTheGreat]

Hey, it's not as though you're a soldier, is it? :)

Seriously, not everyone is happy taking stupid orders. And, as a soldier, you're gonna get more than your fair share of stupid orders. So if you want to avoid that, then you shouldn't become a soldier if at all avoidable.

[Terez]

You’ll feed on beans and on rotten hay,
and a horse’s hoof come your naming day.
You’ll sweat and bleed till you grow old,
and your only gold will be dreams of gold,
if you go to be a soldier.
If you go to be a soldier.

Your girl will marry another man.
A muddy grave will be all your land.
Food for the worms and none to mourn.
You’ll curse the day you were ever born,
if you go to be a soldier.
If you go to be a soldier.

And that's a recruiting song.TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance
A fat knot of civilians trailed along behind, townsmen and refugees mingled, young men all, watching curiously and listening. It never ceased to amaze Mat. The worse the song made soldiering seem – this was far from the worst – the larger the crowd. Sure as water was wet, some of those men would be talking to a bannerman before the day was out, and most who did would sign their names or make their mark. They must think the song was an attempt to scare them off and keep the glory and loot. At least the pikes were not singing "Dance with Jak o’ the Shadows." Mat hated that song. Once the lads realized Jak o’ the Shadows was death, they started panting to find a bannerman.

[Toss the dice]

Mat's big problem I think with being a soldier would be the taking orders part, rather than the whole dangerous part.

Sure, Mat isn't thrilled with danger, and would be as far from it as possible if he had his way. But assuming he was to become a soldier AFTER a lot of his experiences in the books, rather than a general...to be honest it would probably be 100X safer being a soldier (if the armies you were fighting were ALL the enemies you had), than what he has been through in the last couple years on a regular basis.

Compared to trollocs, fades, draghkar, darkfriends, gholam, shadowhounds, the BA, the Forsaken, let alone thinking the DO himself is in your dreams...well, the idea of being a soldier would be a walk in the park if that's all you had to deal with. Hell, at this point in time facing nothing worse than trollocs would be like a gift.

The whole testesterone thing would be the least of his worries as well. Not to mention being probably in the top 3 greatest individual fighters in the known world with regular weapons. Can't hurt.

That said, he probably IS safer being a general than he would be being a common soldier.

Would he have been a good soldier had nothing in the last couple years (since meeting Moiraine) happened, and he had stayed in Emond's Field milking cows? Probably not. :) About the only thing he would have had going for him was his natural quickness and agility, a good potential base body template for fighting.

[Enigma]

Before he leveled up I could see Mat as a scout for an army but not a regular soldier. He has the ability with a staff and has quick reflexes and was reasonably fit but I don't think the Mat we say in TEotW would be all that hot on polishing his armour and marching on parade.

[Davian93]

Hey, it's not as though you're a soldier, is it? :)

Seriously, not everyone is happy taking stupid orders. And, as a soldier, you're gonna get more than your fair share of stupid orders. So if you want to avoid that, then you shouldn't become a soldier if at all avoidable.

You do know I'm a veteran, right?

[Terez]

Dav, lighten up. We all know that what Gonzo said is a perfect representation of how Mat felt about soldiering.

[GonzoTheGreat]

You do know I'm a veteran, right?Shut up.

Not having been a soldier myself, I'm not entirely sure that was a sufficiently stupid order. That's the problem with armchair generals: they are too smart to deal with real soldiers.

[Davian93]

Shut up.

Not having been a soldier myself, I'm not entirely sure that was a sufficiently stupid order. That's the problem with armchair generals: they are too smart to deal with real soldiers.

Dumbass.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Davian, why did Mat try so very hard to get out of being a soldier, if not for the fact that he saw significant downsides to being a soldier?

[Wunderwaffe]

Scroll down for TLDR version

Gonzo, there are obvious downsides to being a soldier, just as there are downsides to being a medical practitioner, a writer, a paleobotanist, or a cop. There are pros and cons to virtually everything. I think there are some upsides to being a soldier that perhaps you have yet to consider

Tarmon Gai'don has arrived, and no one will be untouched by the ramifications. Joining the Forces of the Light has some allure. Every single person can help make a difference -- help save the world. It's necessary at times of great crisis for ordinary men to join a cause larger than themselves. Rational men who walk in the Light understand that if the Dragon Reborn fails, the world as they know it will cease to exist. So, why not join, say, the Band of the Red Hand? Or the forces Davram Bashere is collecting from those who didn't make the Asha'man cut?

You really only have a few options at this point if you aren't a Darkfriend. One would be to flee to some remote location and try to ignore Tarmon Gai'don and hope that you are beneath anyone's notice. Another would be to go on as if nothing is going to happen and continue your routines. This is probably the poorest choice. Or, you could fight alongside the Dragon Reborn with the Forces of Light and battle the Dark One. Imo, the best choice.

There are a lot of good reasons to join the military, whether we are talking about Real Life, or the WoT universe. For some people, the military is bred into their family. An individual's father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. all were in the military, so the son/daughter joins the military to continue the family legacy. Some people make careers out of the military. Believe it or not, it is possible for a person to fully actualize their dreams and live a rewarding and fulfilling life...in the military.

Some people who can't afford a decent college education join the military for a few years so they can get financed to get the education they need to start their dream career.

Btw, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I personally would not serve in the military. But not because of any generalized reasons, or because I prefer to strive with the normative trends of society. My reasons are mine, they are personal, and it's based off my experiences, beliefs, values, etc. I am an individual unlike anyone else. What's good for me isn't necessarily good for the fellow standing to the right of me.

Then there is the honor facet to military service. For many people, especially in Randland, honor is a big thing. Look at the Aiel, or the Borderlanders. Obtaining and maintaining honor is what they mainly focus on. How does one gain honor? Through actions. For these people, honor defines their character. A large aspect of gaining honor is serving one's Lord and Land with dignity, respect, etc.

In closing, I wouldn't use Mat's disdain for soldiering as compelling evidence that military service is something that should be looked down upon. It isn't indicative that there are more downsides than upsides to the life of a soldier. Like most things in life, there is a balance. Mat, from the beginning of the series until later on, was very egocentric. He was ultimately concerned with his own survival, and tried to sidestep fate by leaving Rand and riding off into the sunset to find a place he could find wenches, wine, and dice games. I think Mat's perspectives have changed a bit through the experiences he has underwent. He has matured a lot, and has realized that things are in motion that are much bigger and vastly more important than his own life. He knows the stakes, and if it came down to it, wouldn't hesitate to throw himself into a life and death dance wielding his Ashandarei against Halfmen and Trollocs.

His perspective throughout the series has largely been irreverent and dissolute, so I wouldn't necessarily agree with his judgments on certain things.

TLDR version

Although there certainly are downsides to being a soldier, there are also many significant pros that can't be dismissed. These include but are not limited to:

Living a disciplined life

Honor, dignity, respect that goes along with the job

Serving one's Lord and Land

Defending the ideology that represents your country's values

[Davian93]

Davian, why did Mat try so very hard to get out of being a soldier, if not for the fact that he saw significant downsides to being a soldier?

Remember the circumstances behind it. Mat desperately wanted to escape the ta'veren pull from Rand and was trying to leave Cairhien when he got pulled back no matter what he did. It was more a reluctance on his part to accept his destiny at Rand's side than a hatred of soldiering. If anything, Mat is an exceptional officer that leads by his own personal charisma. He might not be a good grunt (not everyone is) but he's still a great soldier.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I know he's a good soldier. He doesn't want to be a soldier at all, but if he does have to be one (it is what the Pattern and assorted AS force upon him), then being a good one is definitely a smarter choice than being a bad one.

I do disagree with Dubdubya's assesment of Mat a bit. Mat has been willing to do what needed to be done all along. He has also been quite eager not to have to do that, if it could be avoided. What has changed over the course of the series is that he has figured out that it really is he who has to do a lot of those things, that he can't leave and hope someone else will take care of them.
For instance, in the battle of Cairhien against the Shaido, he had planned to give his warning and then leave. But then Talmanes came with "I'll lead half, you do the other part", and Mat was stuck with it. Basically all that has changed by the time of KoD is that Mat expects to get stuck with it, not that he likes it or wants it.

[FelixPax]

Moving back to the original topic of who else is "lucky with dice", look towards Logain of all people as a possibly. He's either a cheat as Min suspects or just maybe he's truly lucky with dice too:

She had seen Logain’s halo before, and she knew what it meant. Glory to come. But for him, perhaps above all men, surely that made no sense at all. His horse and his sword and his coat had come from playing at dice, though Min was not certain how fair the games had been. He had nothing else, and no prospects except Siuan’s promises, and how could Siuan ever keep them? His very name was likely a death sentence. It just made no sense.