For the resident Ghenjei experts

[Spidy]

From The Shadow Rising:

A third time the bell sounded mournfully, and the entire room trembled.
"Go!" the man shouted. "You have had your answers. You must go before it is too late!"

Too late for what? We know Rand was in there and so was Moraine but we only know that Rand was holding saidin and had weaved his sword which could be taken as a lamp or torch. We do not know if Moraine was holding saidar at any time.

What would it have been too late for? Mat to get out? Mat to get to Rhuidean which if he stayed may not have come true? Was it a Ta'veren overload? Why the bells?

[Strongman]

My guess would be Ta'veren overload. I think Moraine said something like that after everyone was out.

[Mort]

Oh, that one is easy!

No one knows :)
All we can do is speculate, and frankly, we don't have much to go on to even do that properly.

I have a feeling we will know a lot more about the Finns after book twelve though.

[Strongman]

Here is what I was thinking about

TSR chapter 15

Moiraine then steps out. She sees the two of them and is angry. She says two ta'veren at once could have torn the connection and trapped them.


and this confirms it for me:

You must go to Rhuidean." A bell tolls and the three figures sway. The woman says, "He is another. The strain."

"another" would mean Ta'veren imo.

[a dragonburned fool]

The state of ta'veren-overload was a iirc the consensus about the anxiety among aelfinns. But if I understood the original question of Spidy, it was what exactly would cause this ta'veren-overload (or whatever) such that it would be "too late", right.

Since teh aelfinn said that if Mat doesn't go now, it would be too late, it seems reasonable to suggest that he wouldn't be able to go out when it becomes "too late". Since the aelfinn in this case want Mat out, he would be unable to go oout not because they would stop him. More possibly the exit would abnormally close itself.

Isn't it common that when there is an overload, the first thing to burn out is usually some connection link, some interface?

[Yuri33]

The *Finn world has a different "physics" than Randland. This is exemplified by the impossible geometry of their buildings. Who's to say this doesn't extend to the Pattern of their world as well. Ta'veren bend the pattern, and even in their own world, they create weird effects. Send a couple of them into the *Finn world, and that could easily be a recipe for disaster. The *Finns wanted them out before their world crumbled under the tension of two ta'veren.

[Spidy]

Then the easy way to get Moraine out of the Tower would be to have Perrin and Mat go in and the Finns would all have an apoplexy over Ta-veren being inside and would probably agree to let her leave or try to throw Mat and Perrin out like they did in Tear.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Or the entrances, which are already weakened by the destruction of one of them, would all collapse and they would all be trapped there forever and ever.

Messing around with conflicting laws of physics is not always safe. It's fun, though.

[The Immortal One]

I think the 'connection' - if there is one - to the Tower of Ghenjei would be much harder to break or damage in any way than the connections to the doorway Ter'angreal.

For that matter does the tower itself count as a Ter'angreal? Or the Whitebridge?

[Terez]

Whitebridege is definitely not a ter'angreal, and the Tower doesn't seem to be either (though I suppose I could be wrong).

And Spidy, that might seem to be the easiest way to get them, but according to Moiraine, Mat will certainly fail if he brings anyone other than Thom and a guy that Moiraine doesn't know, and since she knows Perrin, that won't work. :p

[Yuri33]

Plus, there are other ways of threatening the *Finns (fire, anyone?). However, they're not going to save Moiraine with simple threats. They're going to save her by breaking the rules.

[a dragonburned fool]

Then the easy way to get Moraine out of the Tower would be to have Perrin and Mat go in and the Finns would all have an apoplexy over Ta-veren being inside and would probably agree to let her leave or try to throw Mat and Perrin out like they did in Tear.Since Moiraine knows that no else then Mat Thom and Noal can save her, this means that the Perrin option cannot work. Why, what's different? I think that with the aelfinns and the Red Door, the aelfinns had a suitable exit open, while with Ghenjei Tower who knows what is needed for an exit to be opened. Probably *finns wouldn't be able to bring them out fast enough and the bad-for-finns efect of too-many-ta'verens would unleash whatever *finns do. Another probabiltyt is that the too-many-ta'verens efefct was valid for a connection with an open red door, but would be not valid with Ghenjei tower, that is ... eh... not exactly open.

[4Alethinos]

It seems clear to me that two Ta'Verens in the Aelfinn space was disruptive. As a consequence, I see that 1 Ta'Veren, namely Mat, is not the same. We saw that with the Eelfinn.

The Tower of Ghenjei intersects three dimensions. Both of the Finn dimensions and the world of Rand. The existence of the ToG in TAR is no different than that of any other structure, IMO. It exists there because it exists in Randland. The fact that Luc/Isam can enter it from TAR does not seem out of bounds with their demonstrated abilities to leave TAR and enter it at will. It may well include the ability to enter the ToG from TAR, as well.

Moiraine has made it clear that there are only three people who can rescue her. Clearly, the group cannot include two Ta'Veren, and, thus, neither Perrin nor Rand can attend with Mat.

There cannot be any resonance between the two Doorways to the Finns, since they intersected with different dimensions. With one of them gone, the possiblities of resonance are even more nil.

Is it possible that the way out will be through the doorway that enters the Aelfinn dimension? It is evident that the entry will be made at the ToG, but where is the exit?

"Waiting with bated breath. Oh wait, that is the garlic." :eek:

[Yuri33]

WH, With the Choeden Kal:
Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would.

If both are contributing to her confinement, they likely occupy the same dimension\world. The differences in the *Finns' architecture, entrances, etc. can probably be explained by the strange physics\geometry of their world.

[Birgitte]

Messing around with conflicting laws of physics is not always safe. It's fun, though.

~giggles~ Definitely interesting at least.

[Nazbaque]

The too late can have two meanings (or more but I can only think of two) either it is the get out now before this whole place falls apart thing or to Mat in personal as in go to Rhuidean, go there now, you die if you don't, go before it's too late. It could be either one it could even be both.

[Ozymandias]

My question is this; does something similar happen when Mat goes back? I personally think Noal might be slightly ta'veren... it might make sense, given his travels and influence. Now of course it wouldn't be the same as when Rand and Mat went in, but possible it could be just enough to upset the balance of things yet again in *Finnland.

[Nazbaque]

Wasn't it commented upon in the bookes themselves that even three ta'veren at once much less in the same village is unheard of? Noal might have had many adventures he might even be a Hero of the Horn, but even weakly ta'veren is too much IMO.

[Ozymandias]

I'm guessing that by their very nature, Heroes are ta'veren. Anyone important enough to be spun out again and again is certainly influential enough to be ta'veren.

Plus... everyone knew three ta'veren from the same village was impossible... why is it so tough to believe a 4th is out there?

[Nazbaque]

Ozy, everyone is spun out again and again. The Heroes just play more important parts in the events sometimes they are ta'veren but not always. Birgitte and Gaidal lived during the Age of Legends and it woud be a remarkable thing if they had both been ta'veren right along side of LTT and I doubt they were the only HotH spun out at the time, so there would be records or at least hints of it and the trio ta'veren wouldn't be such a big deal.

[Ozymandias]

but there is a difference. Heroes are specific souls, spun back out, generally, for a purpose. The Wheel directly controls when and where they are spun, whereas normal souls are just randomly generated over and over.

Otherwise, what is the difference between a Hero and a normal person?

An interesting thing to comprehend is this; how do people know about Heroes? They are spun back out by different names with no memory of their own lives, how do people connect them with their progenitor soul?

[Nazbaque]

Spun out for a purpose yes, but ta'veren alter the Pattern itself making Age Lace. This results in many "odd" things happening around them. This doesn't happen with regular HotH.

[Weird Harold]

but there is a difference. Heroes are specific souls, spun back out, generally, for a purpose. The Wheel directly controls when and where they are spun, whereas normal souls are just randomly generated over and over.

That doesn't necessarily make Heroes Ta'veren or even require that they be temporarily ta'veren. People can be heroic -- even archetypally heroic -- without needing to twist probability around them.

The Three Amigos are unusual in that they are Permanently Ta'veren -- they've been ta'veren continuously ever since they left Emmond's Field and possible some time before they actually left.

(That raises an interesting question for another thread.)

Normally, lesser Ta'veren are only ta'veren for just as long as is required to twist probablility near them as the Wheel requires to adjust the Pattern. I'd speculate that the vast majority of ta'veren aren't ta'veren long enough or strong enough for anyone (who doesn't have the Talent of seeing ta'veren) to really notice.

Major (persistent) ta'veren like the Three Amigos, Artur Hawkwing, et al, are the exceptions to the general run of ta'veren-ness. Noal might have had ta'veren moments in his travels but there's nothing special about being a famous travellogue author that requires ta'veren-ness to become famous.

An interesting thing to comprehend is this; how do people know about Heroes? They are spun back out by different names with no memory of their own lives, how do people connect them with their progenitor soul?

That's easy: Heroes live in T'A'R between lives -- the Dream World -- and who hasn't dreamed of being a hero at some point in their lives?

The precepts prevent heroes from interacting with people who know they're in T'A'R, but I don't know of any prohibiton -- or way to prevent -- some interaction between heroes and unknowing dreamers in T'A'R.

Every culture has some "Robin Hood" type in their folklore -- which is why it's a "hero archetype." (other cultures might consider Robin Hood to be an example of their archetypal "good thief" hero but I've only dabbled in Comparitive Folklore studies from the Western European POV.)

[4Alethinos]

I would take the immediate context of the Aelfinns and Moiraine's comments as the best answer as to what "too late" means.

BTW, normal souls are not randomly spun out any more than HotH souls are randomly spun out. The Wheel is in charge of this and it is not random. That would be totally against the programming of the Wheel in the first place. It is a very deterministic universe here and randomness is not really in the picture as far as what soul gets spun out and to whom and at what time.

"The Wheel weaves, baby." :)

[Ozymandias]

That's easy: Heroes live in T'A'R between lives -- the Dream World -- and who hasn't dreamed of being a hero at some point in their lives?

The precepts prevent heroes from interacting with people who know they're in T'A'R, but I don't know of any prohibiton -- or way to prevent -- some interaction between heroes and unknowing dreamers in T'A'R.

Every culture has some "Robin Hood" type in their folklore -- which is why it's a "hero archetype." (other cultures might consider Robin Hood to be an example of their archetypal "good thief" hero but I've only dabbled in Comparitive Folklore studies from the Western European POV.)

This doesn't even come close to answering the question, WH. Just because people dream about being Heroes doesn't mean they dream about specific Heroes. Why is Birgitte Birgitte Silverbow, and not Plain Jane Doe (as an example of one of her many incarnations). Why are they defined as these original characters, as supposed to earlier or later incarnations? Birgitte has been reincarnated countless times and never as Birgitte Silverbow again, so how come all the stories are about Birgitte and not alter-egos 2-100? For that matter why does Birgitte remember herself as Birgitte? Because she was the initial incarnation of the the Hero? How come people don't tell stories about the reincarnations of the Heroes, when they have no way of distinguishing between a random hero and a Hero? Why don't those incarnations of the Hero go down in the books? If Birgitte was Birgitte in her first life, Jane in her second, and Doodiepoopiefeces in here third, why aren't there stories about the great Jane and the memorably pungent Doodiepoopiefeces?

Thats what I want to know.

[Weird Harold]

This doesn't even come close to answering the question, WH. Just because people dream about being Heroes doesn't mean they dream about specific Heroes. Why is Birgitte Birgitte Silverbow, and not Plain Jane Doe (as an example of one of her many incarnations). Why are they defined as these original characters, as supposed to earlier or later incarnations?

AS far as I know, Birgitte Silverbow and Gaidal Cain were their LAST incarnations, not the first or some random intermediate incarnation. They are the "Robin Hood" and "Maid Marion" archetypes of English legend.

At Falme, Artur Hawkwing appeared as Artur Hawkwing and not King Arthur bearing Excalibur (the best known archetype of the "One True King")

As best as can be determined every Hero wears the face of their last incarnation although they remember all of their incarnations while between lives in T'A'R.

A comment by Birgitte about he stories being told about her not being close to the way she remembers it with several different incarnations rolled into one rollicking good story with fanciful imbellishments leads me to suggest that the faces the Heroes Of The Horn wear in T'A'R are determined by the popularity of their stories as told by Bards and Gleemen and the Dreams of heroic deeds those tales inspire in their audiences.

In other words, the collective dreams and imaginations of fans of the heroes' legends determine how well defined the Heroes are in T'A'R between lives.

The Heroes of the Horn ride up and Rand recognizes them. He also recalls older names for them. They include Rogosh Eagle-eye, Gaidal Cain, Birgitte, Mikel of the Pure Heart (Michael), Paedrig the peacemaker (Patrick) and Otarin (Oscar). Artur Hawkwing leads them and calls Rand Lews Therin.

IIRC, the descriptions of Paedrig the Peacemaker and Otarin were the ones who were like afterimages of all their past lives all showing at once. But those two especially are never mentioned anywhere except when the heroes ride up at Falme -- eg they're not particularly well known legends in the current time and not "Billboard's Top 100 Most Requested" or "NYT Best Sellers."

But this thread isn't the place for the long version of that discussion -- but think about this: The Heroes have awsome capabilities in T'A'R, (like appearing only as a shadow as Gaidal Cain did when he repremnaded Birgitte for violating thhe precepts,) but the ONE thing that no hero seems to be able to do nor, apparently, can any dreamwalker do to them is make them appear as someone else. Why not when ability T'A'R is essentially "the strongest visulazation wins?" Why are Heroes locked into their last (best known?) incarnation?

[Yuri33]

but the ONE thing that no hero seems to be able to do nor, apparently, can any dreamwalker do to them is make them appear as someone else. Why not when ability T'A'R is essentially "the strongest visulazation wins?" Why are Heroes locked into their last (best known?) incarnation?

As far as I can tell, no on has tried to impose any visualization on a Hero in TAR. The Heroes obviously possess significant knowledge of TAR, so they have good control over themselves, but there's nothing that says a powerful dreamer couldn't turn them into something else. Moghedien certainly had no trouble handling Hero Birgitte, though she never attempted to change her while she was still a Hero.

[Weird Harold]

As far as I can tell, no on has tried to impose any visualization on a Hero in TAR. The Heroes obviously possess significant knowledge of TAR, so they have good control over themselves, but there's nothing that says a powerful dreamer couldn't turn them into something else. Moghedien certainly had no trouble handling Hero Birgitte, though she never attempted to change her while she was still a Hero.
The point was that the Heroes (Birgitte) don't bother to disguise themselves when spying on visitors to get around the precepts.

Moghedien was quick enough to try to force changes on Nyneave and Egwene -- Why not on Birgitte?

There's not beeen very many instances where a Hero and a Dreamwalker interacted, so there's nothing to really base a conclusion either way. Still, Moghedian's failure to even try the "forever footstool" stunt she threatened Nyneave with in BIrgitte is suggestive that maybe she couldn't (Either because she's not as good as she claims to be or because Birgitte is a HotH)

[Yuri33]

The point was that the Heroes (Birgitte) don't bother to disguise themselves when spying on visitors to get around the precepts.

Moghedien was quick enough to try to force changes on Nyneave and Egwene -- Why not on Birgitte?
...
Still, Moghedian's failure to even try the "forever footstool" stunt she threatened Nyneave with in BIrgitte is suggestive that maybe she couldn't (Either because she's not as good as she claims to be or because Birgitte is a HotH)

Dispositive claims do not prove (or even suggest) the alternative. I've been called down recently for making too much use of circumstantial evidence.

[Weird Harold]

Dispositive claims do not prove (or even suggest) the alternative. I've been called down recently for making too much use of circumstantial evidence.

Like I said earlier, this is not the thread for this discussion.

The Common Dream explanation for the Heroes' appearance and names really doesn't come from the series as much as it does from growing up in the same generation as RJ. Even those of us who enlisted and went to Vietnam were affected by Hippy mysticism and philosphy.

[the silent speaker]

My *finn theory is that they liked Mat, owing probably to his delicious smorgasbord of memories, and stretched a point. Since he got his fourth question in before the third bell tolled (which he could do because unlike the others he didn't need an interpreter to speak the Old Tongue, plus it was a short question), they answered it. But because of that, he needed to run for it once the bell did toll, otherwise he'd fall under the same "asked too many questions and stayed too long" category as anyone else.