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View Full Version : Is this the end of Graendal?


Sodas
10-19-2009, 03:48 PM
With the title of the next book being the Towers of Midnight, it leaves a good chance that Rand's business in Arad Doman might be finished in this book. Since Graendal is at the center of that mess, seems to me that there is a good chance that Rand will need to eliminate her.

What are your odds of Graendal surviving TGS?

And if Asmodean's killer is not revealed in TGS, does that dramatically lower her odds of having killed Asmodean to those still in her faction?

FelixPax
10-19-2009, 04:18 PM
What are your odds of Graendal surviving TGS?

I will be shocked if Graendal dies in tGS. Besides Graendal seems to be the solo Chosen to be putting together the pieces of the puzzle, of how Moridin, L.T.T and Rand al'Thor are 'connected'.

She been thinking about the roles of 'souls' and the Dragon Reborn for a long time, since at least Fires of Heavens book:


“Well,” Graendal put in, “have we come around at last to what we are here to discuss?”
Rahvin gave a displeased start. The two servants were frozen still—or again, rather. Sammael muttered in his beard.
“If this Rand al’Thor really is Lews Therin Telamon reborn,” Graendal went on, settling herself on the man’s back where he crouched on all fours, “I am surprised you haven’t tried to snuggle him into your bed, Lanfear. Or would it be so easy? I seem to remember Lews Therin led you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking.” She set her own wine on the tray, held out rigidly by the sightlessly kneeling woman. “You were so obsessed with him you’d have stretched out at his feet if he said ‘rug.’”

Lanfear’s dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. “He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself.”

“How do you know?” Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. “It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?”


As of tGS Prologue, Graendal knows that Moridin is showing traits of Rand al'Thor, and she earlier speculated that Rand was reborn again as L.T.T. in FoH book. Graendal is probably the first Chosen to make all the connections between L.T.T, Rand, Moridin - other than Moridin himself much earlier.

Graendal also might have learned from Aran'gar that Cyndane and Moghedien are tied to Moridin by a mindtrap.

Putting this all together puts Graendal into a unique position relative to all other Chosen, except Moridin himself. I can't see her attempting to kill Rand at all in tGS, nor getting herself killed witha bad decision.


Aran'gar on the other hand, I can see getting killed...by Graendal actually. :D
That could be her 3rd Chosen killed, directly or indirectly - Asmodean, Sammael (manipulating him), and yes, next up likely Aran'gar...who's another male Chosen idiot to trust Graendal. ;)

creepybob
10-19-2009, 04:35 PM
With the title of the next book being the Towers of Midnight, it leaves a good chance that Rand's business in Arad Doman might be finished in this book. Since Graendal is at the center of that mess, seems to me that there is a good chance that Rand will need to eliminate her.

What are your odds of Graendal surviving TGS?

And if Asmodean's killer is not revealed in TGS, does that dramatically lower her odds of having killed Asmodean to those still in her faction?

My odds were listed here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2374) at 73.3% chance of surviving TGS.

...that may be a bit high, I give her a 50/50 chance at living to TG.

AbbeyRoad
10-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Graendal is definitely one of my favorite Forsaken. Not only is she relatively lucid and keeps with the big picture, but she's the only one to really get shit done. Besides her and Be'lal (and Rahvin briefly), no one else has really made a move (I did like Semirhage, too). But Graendal and Be'lal are/were definitely the coolest Forsaken.

And I hope she makes it to Tarmon Gaidon, but something tells me her and Rand will have a showdown next Tuesday ;).

Terez
10-19-2009, 05:39 PM
Rand will kill either Aran'gar or Graendal in this book, I think, but Aran'gar seems more likely. Graendal will be rooted out of Arad Doman at the very least, but I can see her being captured rather than killed, and I can also see her funneling all of the fallout in Aran'gar's direction and escaping.

FelixPax
10-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Rand will kill either Aran'gar or Graendal in this book, I think, but Aran'gar seems more likely. Graendal will be rooted out of Arad Doman at the very least, but I can see her being captured rather than killed, and I can also see her funneling all of the fallout in Aran'gar's direction and escaping.

I've mentioned elsewhere that Graendal most likely has recently visited Tremalking, Quim, and/or Cindaking islands in the Sea of Storms. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Graendal having an influence on one or more of those islands in tGS. Sweetbristle juice and Black Tea, are likely sourced from those same southern islands.

One of the Chosen, I would think should have an sphere of influence among those Southern Islands and among the Sea Folk. Maybe Graendal has expanded her reach outside Arad Doman as was hinted at in the various texts??


Why can one be sure Graendal would be rooted out of Arad Doman successfully, when her tools are mostly indirect manipulation to influence greater events?

Davian93
10-19-2009, 07:04 PM
She would never confront Rand, she would simply flee and reestablish herself someplace else.

Sodas
10-19-2009, 09:05 PM
I'm sure Graendal wants that to be true. But, do you really think that Rand and company will allow her to escape if they find her palace?

Davian93
10-19-2009, 09:25 PM
I'm sure Graendal wants that to be true. But, do you really think that Rand and company will allow her to escape if they find her palace?

How hard is it for her to Travel as soon as one of her Wards is tripped?

Sodas
10-19-2009, 11:04 PM
Well, those wards didn't do her much good in the prologue,
Without warning, a gateway spun open in the center of the room. She cursed under her breath as one of her finest prizes—a succulent young woman named Thurasa, a member of the Domani merchant council—nearly lost an arm to the thing. The gateway let in a sweltering heat that marred the perfect mix of chill mountain air and fireplace warmth she had cultivated.
Graendal kept her composure, forcing herself to lounge back in her overstuffed velvet chair. A messenger in black strode through the portal, and she knew what he wanted before he even spoke. Only Moridin knew where to find her, now that Sammael was dead.

It seems that anyone could have opened that Doorway, and Graendal would have been toast.

In Arad Doman with Rand is Cadsuane, Alivia and Nyneave. All pose a serious threat to Graendal, particularly with their assortment of angrael/ter'angrael. They all might find it easy to follow Graendal whereever she might try to Travel to, if Graendal even puts up a fight.

She probably would be better of surrendering, and trust in Rand's phobia against killing women. A phobia that is keeping Semirhage alive.

Mort
10-20-2009, 03:41 AM
As of tGS Prologue, Graendal knows that Moridin is showing traits of Rand al'Thor, and she earlier speculated that Rand was reborn again as L.T.T. in FoH book. Graendal is probably the first Chosen to make all the connections between L.T.T, Rand, Moridin - other than Moridin himself much earlier.


I wouldn't go so far as to Graendal is aware of Moridin starting to look like Rand, if that is really the case. She knows something is amiss, she just hasn't figured it out yet, she might, but she hasn't yet.

Somehow, the Graendal situation will resolve itself in this book, either being killed, captured or chased off. Somehow I think we're gonna at least see Rand confronting her and trying to hold down his madness, I'm sure that's one of the goals of that expedition.

Terez
10-20-2009, 03:47 AM
She probably would be better of surrendering, and trust in Rand's phobia against killing women. A phobia that is keeping Semirhage alive.
Rand's 'phobia' is certainly going to be central to her plans to follow Moridin's orders to give him pain of heart, or whatever it was. And also probably central to her plans to set Aran'gar up as the fall girl. Graendal is a crafty one, and I expect her to come up with something good...but it still wouldn't surprise me at all to see her get caught anyway.

Moridin's orders might be the only thing that keeps her from fleeing, like she originally planned to do in the event that Rand came after her.

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2009, 09:47 AM
Rand's 'phobia' is certainly going to be central to her plans to follow Moridin's orders to give him pain of heart, or whatever it was. And also probably central to her plans to set Aran'gar up as the fall girl. Graendal is a crafty one, and I expect her to come up with something good...but it still wouldn't surprise me at all to see her get caught anyway.

Moridin's orders might be the only thing that keeps her from fleeing, like she originally planned to do in the event that Rand came after her.
Another thing to consider is whether she has enough favor with the Dark One and Moridin that the Shadow might lend her support. It's getting a little hairy for the Chosen, and it would behoove the Shadow to throw some additional weight behind its plans so they don't rely on obviously fallible Chosen.

We've seen several Forsaken fail, only to be given another chance. If Graendal is currently making the DO happy, I don't think he'll just let her die. That would be stupid.

I rather like the idea of Graendal fleeing to a fallback stronghold on the islands somewhere, Felix, I just can't see how it might play into the remaining plot.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2009, 10:17 AM
I do wonder why none of the Forsaken lured Rand into the Blight. Letting him run into an abandoned Stedding there might have been a good way of testing how unkillable he was, precisely. And then they could have said (honestly) to the DO "it wasn't me, it was some weird sort of cross between a plant and a vorpal bunny".

On topic: I don't think any more of the Forsaken will fall before the actual Last Battle. Instead, they will serve to separate Rand from his support (including Alivia), thus giving the DO a clean shot at his ancient foe.

4Alethinos
10-24-2009, 12:50 PM
My goodness, where to start?

From Gonzo:
On topic: I don't think any more of the Forsaken will fall before the actual Last Battle. Instead, they will serve to separate Rand from his support (including Alivia), thus giving the DO a clean shot at his ancient foe.

It is possible that Rand may get separated, but Alivia will not perish until after she helps Rand to die.

with regard to Terez's post. If any Forsaken were to die and the DO were to grad that soul, it will still take some time to get a suitable body with a genetic link to the OP. They well may be effectively out of it. When Rand defeats the DO, I will wonder what may happen to any of the souls that the DO may have in his keeping.

I hold that Graendal has been used to confirm the Min's vision about two coming together to be one and one of the dying is Rand and Moridin. Just a pet idea. :D

Mort:

Rand will get no madder than he is already. I completely agree that he will have to get past that idea of not killing women. After all, this is an equal opportunity universe. :)

I am somewhat inclined to agree with the consensus here that Graendal is not likely to die in this volume. RAFO. Whee!

"I wonder as I wander out under the sky ...."

Sodas
10-24-2009, 01:11 PM
I am somewhat inclined to agree with the consensus here that Graendal is not likely to die in this volume. RAFO. Whee!


Why?


On topic: I don't think any more of the Forsaken will fall before the actual Last Battle.

Are you being serious here?


No one wants to touch the second question it seems :

If she dies in this book, does that eliminate her as a suspect for killing Asmodean?