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Tamyrlin
10-21-2009, 02:07 PM
Put any such discussions or comments into this thread. Thanks. It is likely I will be moving posts, if possible, merging them into this thread.

Terez
10-22-2009, 12:49 AM
I'm going to be gratuitous, and share what happened through chapter 12 in a vague-ish sort of way, for the spoiler whores, and a bit about after cause I skimmed the next few chapters for points of view. I'm even going to put the only major spoiler I give in spoiler tags so there's that extra assistance to resist. There are a few major spoilers I'm going to avoid revealing at all, and just give hints about, cause I can't do that to people. And I will share even less about the rest if I get to finish it, probably - I got to that midpoint book where things start to get a little crazy. :D Not going to ruin that for anyone. But I took notes! (And after a while I started putting a lot of ! in my notes!)

Chapter 3: The Ways of Honor (Aviendha's pov, 11 pages). Aviendha is in Arad Doman, and it is reminiscent of Myrelle with Nynaeve, before they found out about Lan, but the Wise Ones are trickier. I was right about the Aiel bit, but not about it being a continuation of Egwene. There is a parallel drawn there, though.

Chapter 4: Nightfall (Gawyn pov, 5 pages). Gawyn asks a few important questions, of himself, and of other people. He's still operating out of Dorlan, the cheese village.

Chapter 5: A Tale of Blood (Rand/Cadsuane 15 pages). Not going to say much here. I noted that Rand doesn't bother to differentiate Lews Therin's memories at a much faster pace than ever before. It's reminiscent of chapter 2 of Rhuidean, sort of, when the memories first start flying, and they all freak Rand out individually. Here, he freaks out once, and iirc, just doesn't bother to think to himself that they're Lews Therin's memories several times. The one that he did figure out, he thought about it three times in a row before he realized it was Lews Therin's memory, an when he realized it, it did still freak him out in the same sort of way that it always has. He's getting used to it, so the memories are starting to really be a part of him, and it's a tight struggle. Also, he wondered why he hadn't seen the short dark woman with Mat recently - that gives a strong clue as to exactly how often he thinks of Mat and sees him! - but that tidbit is awfully strange to me, because Rand saw Tuon, via Semirhage's Mirror of Mists. Maybe I need to read it better.

Cadsuane - listens as Merise questions Semirhage. Other people are there. Cadsuane is frustrated with the questioning situation. :)

Chapter 6: When Iron Melts (Ituralde 4 pages, Leane 3 pages, Egwene 2 pages). Ituralde questions a Seanchan general, and the general questions him. Leane experiences a scary bubble of evil. Egwene and various other bits of the Tower experience another one.

Chapter 7: The Plan of Arad Doman (Nynaeve, 15 pages). Daigian is teaching Nynaeve the weaves for the Aes Sedai testing, ostensibly not because they expect Nynaeve to take the test any time soon, but rather because Daigian mourns Eben and needs something to take her mind off it. Along the same lines of Egwene questioning these things with the rebels, Nynaeve questions the issue of deference according to strength in the Power. It's good writing. Daigian is the weakest Aes Sedai alive I think (have to double check on that, but I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned before, and she spent longer as novice and Accepted than anyone also). Then most of Nynaeve's pov is her sitting in on Rand's meeting with Bashere and the Aiel chiefs. :)

Chapter 8: Clean Shirts (Siuan, 19 pages). Few tidbits. Siuan meets with Lelaine, and then with Bryne, and then with Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod. Siuan apparently wasn't entirely sure whether Delana or Halima was the woman channeling saidin, but she figured it was Halima since she'd known Delana forever. Seems strange, since there were so many clues that you'd think with that information that Siuan could have puzzled that much out more confidently than she showed. Lelaine is a tease, but Siuan mentions that Romanda has been seen talking with Marelandra, a distant Trakand cousin.

Chapter 9: Leaving Malden (Perrin, 13 pages). Two small tidbits. Perrin plans to return most people to the Two Rivers as soon as Grady and Neald are rested. However, he talked to Tam, and Tam says he thinks he'll stay with Perrin. He says he thinks most of the Two Rivers men will want to stay. It's not really said outright, but I still have the same 'the storm is coming' feel, really in all these chapters (it's expressed in various ways in each), but I think especially in this one.

Chapter 10: The Last of the Tabac (Ituralde, 12 pages). Going to avoid one spoiler in this that takes up most of the pov. But of course, the last of Ituralde's tabac was the last bit of Two Rivers leaf that he has been saving for last because it is awesome. And he's hanging out in a stedding! :D

Chapter 11: The Death of Adrin (Aviendha, 9 pages). Turns out it's one of Bashere's men.

Chapter 12: Unexpected Encounters (Egwene, 22 pages). This is the last chapter I had time to read in full. And wow. Going to give one good spoiler here, cause this is the kind of thing the theory junkies crave.

And it's also one thing that I seem to be right about, based on this chapter and also on my skimming through the rest of the book, so it's the only thing I'm really insanely itching to tell. If I could put it in double spoiler tags, I would, but come on...it's one of those things that at least 90-something Theorylanders knew was coming eventually, and we're a small bunch. :) Plenty of folks on other websites knew as well.

This is one month after chapter 8, the last time Egwene met with Siuan. Which was quite odd, because there are so many things picking up right where they left off, and then all of a sudden a month is gone. And Egwene has been doing her thing for a month - lots of progress!

She has a lesson with Bennae, the one she clued in to the 13th depository the last time, and advised to ask her Ajah leaders about those secrets Egwene revealed. This is a strange visit, because Bennae apparently followed that advice. She speaks to Egwene very much as hesitant daughter to Mother. And that's just the beginning!

Egwene meets with Suana, and Suana tries to talk her into becoming Yellow! And Egwene does the whole 'Amyrlin has no Ajah' thing, but Suana isn't having that. Egwene is impressed that she has impressed a Sitter (!) and has no idea that she's an Ajah head as well! She had no idea about Adelorna in Knife of Dreams either, or Cadsuane, whom Adelorna compared her to! So it's all starting to clink into place...and still just getting started for this chapter!

Next it's Meidani, who has taken all this time since chapter 2 to call her! Egwene asks those tough questions I've been saying she would be asking (since before chapter 2 even). She's not one to pussy-foot around the situation, and she cut straight to the heart with Meidani, asking why she hadn't fled the Tower, convincing her that she was Amyrlin, back and forth, figuring out in less than a minute that it had something to do with the Oaths. :D So Meidani found a way around her Oath, with Egwene's help. She couldn't tell Egwene, but she could show her...

So, bam. Down to the basement, Saerin, Yukiri, Seaine, and Doesine, all at once. They didn't have the rod on hand, but Egwene made it clear that she was rather disappointed that they did not. She bullied them just like she bullies everyone else, and she got them to tell her that they'd caught a Sitter - Talene - and managed to convince them that they'd raised Elaida illegally, and even managed to threaten them with the law for the fourth Oath they'd made the rebels swear!

So, that's enough for this chapter, except to mention a thing I glossed over for chapter 8 (a month before, when Siuan met Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod). Lelaine asks Siuan how the negotiations are going, and Siuan says they are not going well, and thinks about the fact that Elaida's 'agents' (she wonders why Elaida is allowing it, because she has no idea that Elaida has forbidden it and no one is obeying her orders) will not back down on Elaida's conditions, and get frustrated every time the reinstatement of the Blue Ajah is brought up. She doesn't realize that they are frustrated because of Elaida, not because of the rebels' reasonable demands. She doesn't know that the Ajah Heads, who are behind both sides of the negotiations in a strange as-yet-undetermined way, are testing Egwene in the Tower. In chapter 16 (which I only skimmed), this is still the case - Egwene meets with Ferane and some other Whites. Again, she only knows Ferane is a Sitter, and not an Ajah Head, but Ferane does her best to coax Egwene toward the White. Egwene also thinks that Bennae had done the same thing, tried to recruit her into the Brown. Apparently she gives them all the 'no Ajah' line, but there has been a theme of her thinking of herself as a Green, so perhaps that's what we'll see in the Adelorna point of view later on. :D

Also, I skimmed through 'Sealed to the Flame' and 'The Tower Stands' to see if there was any indication of a Seanchan attack, and I didn't see any. Can't guarantee it, but I was in a hurry so I couldn't pay much attention. However, I'd bet that in 'Sealed to the Flame', Seaine realizes that she can (and should) tell Egwene Elaida's exact orders, because after all, she is the Amyrlin. And that is where the bit about Alviarin will come in. :D

/end major spoilers

I only skimmed these chapters for points of view. Something caught my eye in chapters 16, 22 and 23. But I am NOT GOING THERE FOR 22 AND 23. You will want to just read this.

Chapter: 13 - An Offer and a Departure (Gawyn, 15 pages)

Chapter: 14 - A Box Opens (Cadsuane, 7 pages)

Chapter: 15 - A Place to Begin (Rand 5 pages, Min 9 pages)

Chapter: 16 - In the White Tower (Egwene, 25 pages)

Chapter: 17 - Questions of Control (Cadsuane 5 pages, Perrin 5 pages)

Chapter: 18 - A Message in Haste (Siuan 9 pages)

Chapter: 19 - Gambits (Tuon 17 pages)

Chapter: 20 - On a Broken Road (Mat, 13 pages)

Chapter: 21 - Embers and Ash (Perrin/Faile/Perrin, 13 pages)

Chapter: 22 - The Last That Could Be Done (NOT TELLING YOU)

Chapter: 23 - A Warp in the Air (NOT TELLING YOU)

Didn't catch the rest of the points of view. Maybe more tomorrow, if the Light wills it. :D

Terez
10-22-2009, 06:17 AM
Soooo hard to resist posting in all the discussions that have become moot points. :D

bowlwoman
10-22-2009, 08:16 AM
You little tease! :) Thanks for that, though. I'm somewhat satiated now, or at least, that should get me through another day or so.

I'm thinking even if I got the book early at this point, it wouldn't matter because my daughter's birthday is Monday and we're having her party on Sunday. We also have a Fall Harvest party on Saturday night, so I'll spend most of Saturday cooking for the potluck. Blah.

So, it seems like a lot of "hurry up and wait" for Eggy? I know she's trying to be as methodical as possible, but geesh. Get a move on!

Terez
10-22-2009, 08:33 AM
It's not her that is waiting, but those who are testing her - the Ajah Heads, and the Hunters. Those with the most power in the Tower, excluding the Blacks in the Hall and Elaida! They are close at the point of chapter 16, though.....very close!

That's almost nothing compared to chapters 22 and 23 though!

bowlwoman
10-22-2009, 03:33 PM
Darn it, I got accidentally spoiled on the one thing I wanted to keep clean. GAH!

Sodas
10-22-2009, 10:05 PM
Put any such discussions or comments into this thread. Thanks. It is likely I will be moving posts, if possible, merging them into this thread.

Ok, so this was sent to me today, the prophecies for TGS. Didn't want to start a new thread for it.



Ravens and crows. Rats. Mists and clouds. Insects and corruption. Strange events and odd occurrences. The ordinary twisted and strange. Wonders!
The dead are beginning to walk, and some see them. Others do not, but more and more, we all fear the night.
These have been our days. They rain upon us beneath a dead sky, crushing us with their fury, until as one we beg: "Let it begin!"

--Journal of the Unkown Scholar
entry for The Feast of Freia, 1000 NE



At the end of time,
when the many become one,
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.

- from The Prophecies of the Dragon,
Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's
Official Translation, Imperial
Record House of Seandar,
Fourth Circle of Elevation.

Terez
10-22-2009, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I was going to wait till I finished to post that one, since they said something about important context. Which looks like it won't be till tomorrow.

Terez
10-23-2009, 02:13 AM
I thought I was going to get to finish yesterday, but I didn't. Maybe today. Anyway, since I didn't get the 'important context' so quickly, I figured I'd go ahead and point out something about the Seanchan prophecy:

I really doubt this prophecy has anything to do with Rand's vision problem. More likely, the 'blind' bit has to do with all the things that he is denying, all of the things he can't see because he's confused about what to focus on. It's a normal human condition, but an especially aggravated problem in Rand's case, particularly concerning Lews Therin, and the issue of strength vs. hardness.

From what I read in the early chapters, in Aviendha's points of view particularly, the Wise Ones are still very concerned about the strength vs. hardness issue, and Aviendha has come up with this observation independent of them. They are testing her, in the early chapters, to see if she is ready to go to Rhuidean for the second time. Aviendha won't be happy till she marries Rand, but she can't do that until she is no longer an apprentice. But mid-book, Rand starts to get really desperate for the sort of thing that Aviendha can give him (not sex). So, still ignorant of the last half of the book (other than that Aviendha does indeed go to Rhuidean), I'm thinking Aviendha will get back from Rhuidean just in time, whether it's in this book or the next.

In any case, this is another clue about what is up with Rand's death. Or his 'death', as some believe. Two important tidbits: 1. He stands on his own grave, and whether that's literal or metaphorical, key thing he is 'dead, yet lives'. 2. He is no longer blind - he can see.

So, out of all the theories for how Rand will die, yet live, which one makes the most sense? How will faking his death help him to see, finally? How will being in Moridin's body help him to see? For the latter, you could say that it's because his vision problem has been corrected. But really...how lame is that? That is what makes him 'weep for what has been wrought'?

Far more likely, I think, is that he is a dead Hero, having knowledge of several Turnings' worth of past life memories, and his eternal role as a corrective mechanism for the Pattern. There's another Christianity parallel there, that supposedly the human brain can only comprehend so much, but in the afterlife, we're supposed to know everything.

It would also work thematically if Lews Therin's 'death' also happened to somehow make it to where the memories were fully integrated with Rand's own. I believe this will happen, but I don't think that Lews Therin will 'die' before Rand does, and I don't think that this sort of metaphorical death would really work to solve all these prophecies.

Terez
10-23-2009, 04:21 AM
This post doesn't really have much to do with any real spoiler for the book - just the small details for chapter 7 that I talked about already, with Daigian and Nynaeve, and the whole 'dead yet lives' thing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The Horn thing would be cool, but the main point is that Rand be a Hero (in terms of having cohesion at least with Lews Therin's memories) when he finishes the job, and that this be the manner of his 'to live you must die' thing. Because I can also see the scene where Rand is dead, and they're expecting him to be called by the Horn, and he doesn't show up. That would only happen if he had died, been ripped out already, and was essentially on the way to getting there to finish the job (maybe minus the stopping at the grave thing).

Also, there are the 'foreshadowing' things that WH has been yammering about all these years. I don't see Nynaeve Healing death, because having a weave for such a thing would be extremely lame, because death and rebirth are part of the world. I understand that the mind goes this way because Healing is her thing - but she was there when Moghedien ripped out Birgitte.

And this is where I get to the bit from chapter 7 - while Daigian was teaching Nynaeve the testing weaves, there was emphasis (yet again) on the fact that Nynaeve only has to see something once to remember how to do it. The only reason she hasn't learned all the testing weaves yet is because they keep getting distracted from them by other things (which is ostensibly the point).

Dom has a theory that Egwene will be involved in the sealing of the prison because it will involve Tel'aran'rhiod in some way (not sure exactly), but I don't think that Egwene was the one set up to do this. Nynaeve could barely channel a trickle when she captured Moghedien - she used Tel'aran'rhiod to make the a'dam.

However, it appears Moghedien used the Power to do it:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte's head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.
She saw what Moghedien did to Birgitte as a bad thing - and it was, merely for the reason that it seriously skewed Birgitte's rebirth patterns, at least for this life (as per Min's viewing about her being connected to a much younger man). Anyway, so of course Nynaeve has never considered copying what Moghedien did, because she sees it as a horrible thing to do to someone, and it's not as if she's had any opportunities to do so either. But that does not mean she does not remember how it was done, or couldn't reason it out on her own. Point is, she was there when it was done, and for Rand, it wouldn't be a bad thing. He would come out, appearing like a whole and intact Rand (unless he's attached to his wounds like Jesus was - I doubt it, though he might keep the herons and dragons), the same age as he was when he died, right after he died. It wouldn't disrupt his death and rebirth patterns at all to do that - it would just make him whole and sane. And wise, with Lews Therin's memories fully integrated, and maybe some other past life memories as well.

So, this doesn't explain the twice dawning thing, but it would definitely explain all the live/die prophecies, and WH's foreshadowings of Nynaeve 'Healing' someone three days dead.

Also, more and more I am seeing for Nynaeve a trip to the White Tower, to make sure the Aes Sedai are behind Malkier this time around. That's not really based on anything in the book either...just something she'll probably do.

So - I figure the Horn thing is still a possibility, but this is more likely. It's not as if I haven't considered the idea before - I've actually believed he would be ripped out before, and then I discarded it - but the problem was that I never considered before (for some strange reason) that Nynaeve would be the one to rip him out...I guess I didn't really put much thought into who would do it at all. With that consideration, everything seems to fall together. She's certainly not going to Heal him, but this, she might well do.

So, I was sort of opposed to the idea of Rand living past the Last Battle, but if he lives this way it seems better, for some reason.

This really doesn't address the Rand-Moridin thing at all. But I think my previous post does that well enough.

Isabel
10-23-2009, 08:27 AM
I finished the book. And I think it proofs that LTT was real ;)

And did i miss something or is one candidate now excluded from killing asmo??

greatwolf
10-23-2009, 08:39 AM
You've what???

Isabel
10-23-2009, 08:50 AM
I have finished the book;) Sarevok found 2 copies and gave one to me. I wasn't feeling that well (really) so i went home. I was able to read it in about 6 hours.

bowlwoman
10-23-2009, 09:01 AM
So I wonder where Logain's glory and his stepping over "Rand" come into this theory. Is it possible that Logain needs to be involved somehow? Or, rather than Logain being involved in bringing Rand back from T'A'R, maybe he's the one who marshalls the FoL after Rand's death, so a lot of what Ripped!Rand winds up doing at SG gets attributed to Logain?

Terez
10-23-2009, 02:02 PM
So I wonder where Logain's glory and his stepping over "Rand" come into this theory. Is it possible that Logain needs to be involved somehow? Or, rather than Logain being involved in bringing Rand back from T'A'R, maybe he's the one who marshalls the FoL after Rand's death, so a lot of what Ripped!Rand winds up doing at SG gets attributed to Logain?
I figure that Logain will have to take over the Black Tower when Rand dies. That's his glory. He might even be the one to deal with Taim. That's what RJ seems to be building him up for, anyway.

TITLE - Winter's Heart
PROLOGUE - Snow

Logain had been listening without taking part, arms folded across his chest. His face was unreadable, a mask. “Do you worry about the butcher’s yard, Canler?” he said now.

The Andoran grimaced, then shrugged. “I reckon we’re all headed there, sooner or late, Logain. Don’t see we have much choice, but I don’t have to grin about it.”

“As long as you’re there on the day,” Logain said quietly. He addressed the man called Canler, but several of the others nodded.
So, I imagine he'll be handling the Asha'man while Rand is dead.

And Isa, you think everything proves Lews Therin is 'real', lol.

Sodas
10-23-2009, 04:21 PM
I finished the book. And I think it proofs that LTT was real ;)

And did i miss something or is one candidate now excluded from killing asmo??

Lol. Most people agree after this book that LTT is real.

And yes, there goes Graendal as a suspect for Asmo.

Funny how I saw both of those events coming before reading the book. But I'm sure there will be many shocked readers.

greatwolf
10-23-2009, 08:24 PM
I have finished the book;) Sarevok found 2 copies and gave one to me. I wasn't feeling that well (really) so i went home. I was able to read it in about 6 hours.

not feeling well? hah. ;)

I've never been able to finish any WoT book same day though. And from your expression (?) you're mighty glad you changed your mind and read. :)

Isabel
10-23-2009, 10:27 PM
Sodas: I don't think it fully excludes Greandal. Someone else can reveal it as well.

Greatwolf: I have always finished the book on the same day. And I really have the flu :( Still not feeling well :(((

I did really enjoy the book, but I did felt there were some things off. I really hope we someday will able to read what RJ intended. But if Harriet really thinks that RJ wouldn't have wanted it, than it's ok ;)
I think because RJ was this far into the series and set up so many events, things could happen this way.

I will be able to give a better opinion after rereading the book for a second time.

Sodas
10-23-2009, 10:29 PM
But didn't Brandon say that it will be worked into the killer's point of view at the most natural time? I pretty much figure that the time, if there was any, for Graendal would be before her death. Just like it was for Sammael.

Isabel
10-23-2009, 10:33 PM
No, I looked up one quote of Brandon. ( i am not sure if there are other quotes)
re you going to tell us who killed Asmodean?

A: Mr. Jordan's books are particularly special in that they don't always tie up every loose end, but instead leave some things for the reader to imagine and decide for themselves. Originally, as I understand it, Mr. Jordan was not intending to ever reveal Asmodean's killer, as he believed that the books were explicit enough for one to figure it out on one's own.

However, as the years progressed, Mr. Jordan evidently grew to understand just how much this question was bothering his readers. Recently, he had promised that he would—indeed—find a way to explain Asmodean's death in AMoL. He left behind notes regarding this mystery, and Harriet and I have determined a place in the book where we feel it would work to answer this question. So, yes, I will tell you who killed Asmodean.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/590/Merry-Christmas!-New-FAQ

I originally thought as well that it would be a pov from the killer. But what if Moridin, the DO or someone else knows who done it?
I do think it decreases the chance she did it. Especially considering they could have put it in the prologue. If she really hasn't done it, than i will be happy.

Terez
10-23-2009, 10:55 PM
Yeah, I don't get much into Asmo, but I'll be happy if it's not her as well. It's so....boring. Just about anyone would be more interesting.

Isabel
10-23-2009, 11:02 PM
Stop the presses....
Terez and I agree on something...:eek:

Terez
10-23-2009, 11:06 PM
haha, you mean you don't agree with me about the Nynaeve theory? Come on, you like Nynaeve....it's perfect!

I think I'm still in your fan club. Unless you removed me...

Isabel
10-23-2009, 11:13 PM
haha, you mean you don't agree with me about the Nynaeve theory? Come on, you like Nynaeve....it's perfect!

I think I'm still in your fan club. Unless you removed me...

The fanclub is kindof dead. I don't know which theory of Nynaeve you mean. Unless you mean Nynaeve ripping Rand out of TAR? I have been thinking that for years :)

Terez
10-23-2009, 11:18 PM
It's been in the box o theories for me for a while, but I've never seen anyone make a good argument for it before - had to come up with my own. But you can add that one to your list. ;)

Isabel
10-23-2009, 11:43 PM
That someone hasn't made a good argument for it before, doesn't mean he or she doesn't believe it.
It simply means it's not worth discussing. To me it seems quite obvious that Nyn will resurrect Rand. One of the possible methods being dragging him out of TAR.

Terez
10-23-2009, 11:54 PM
That someone hasn't made a good argument for it before, doesn't mean he or she doesn't believe it.
It simply means it's not worth discussing. yeah...okay. I'm not trying to say you didn't believe it - just that no one's ever managed to convince me of it before, so I convinced myself.

To me it seems quite obvious that Nyn will resurrect Rand. One of the possible methods being dragging him out of TAR. It's the only possible method, cause there was no way ever that she would actually Heal death. That's why I always shied away from that theory, because it was dumb. This is the only way it works.

I just found out the end, and there were some cool surprises - I didn't get to skim much of it in the store. :) I can relax now...

Isabel
10-24-2009, 12:16 AM
Have you finally seen that LTT is real?

Terez
10-24-2009, 12:21 AM
lol.....no. :)

Terez
10-24-2009, 06:44 AM
I just realized an irony in the chapter 'Unexpected Encounters'. That's one of the few things in the book that I expected, damn near word for word the whole chapter. Some things happened later in the book in the same plotline that I didn't expect (or rather, I knew they were possible, but I argued against them for some reasons that were completely satisfied just by reading chapter 12 and skimming chapter 16). RJ did a good job with bread crumb trails and red herrings for the plot lines that play out in this book, to the point where the one major thing in that theory that I was wrong about, I was happy to be wrong about, because it tied into another long-running mystery that had pretty much everybody fooled. It's awesome plotting, and how could I be upset about that? lol...

There are still some few things that remain unspoiled for me, and I have a feeling it will stay that way till Tuesday. :)

Sodas
10-24-2009, 02:21 PM
No, I looked up one quote of Brandon. ( i am not sure if there are other quotes)


http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/590/Merry-Christmas!-New-FAQ

I originally thought as well that it would be a pov from the killer. But what if Moridin, the DO or someone else knows who done it?
I do think it decreases the chance she did it. Especially considering they could have put it in the prologue. If she really hasn't done it, than i will be happy.

That's fine by me. I never saw Graendal as a viable option anyway, and can't say I'm unbiased against more mounting evidence against her. If people want to still say she is the most obvious candidate, well ... what can you say but that Taimadred died only after Jordan had to come out and be explicit.

For Semirhage, I'm not shocked that she died as well. I figured she would try to escape ( since she was the master of torture, great at taking pain as well which would be needed to escape ) and it would end up tragically.

Verin, another non shocker. We knew she was Brown Ajah to the extreme, and then something happened. Hehe, poor gal. But she got around the black oaths when it mattered. Great scene.

Terez
10-24-2009, 05:22 PM
Okay, Isa...you think THIS means Lews Therin was 'real'?

"He knew--somehow--that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been." hahahahahahahahahaha!

jana
10-24-2009, 08:16 PM
Okay, Isa...you think THIS means Lews Therin was 'real'?

"He knew--somehow--that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been." hahahahahahahahahaha!

He was real :rolleyes: and still is.

and quit trying to use me. *rants like Rand*

Terez
10-24-2009, 09:31 PM
He was real :rolleyes: and still is.
Yeah, the reason I put 'real' in quotes is that it doesn't really do any justice at describing the actual argument that we have been having with the real'ers for all these years. The quote I gave sums up exactly what we have been saying all this time.

Isabel
10-24-2009, 11:23 PM
Yeah, i believe that quote means he was real :)
He was the real personality of LTT Rand heard because of the taint. It wasn't a figment of imagination of Rand.

Rand only wouldn't hear the voice anymore when he was completely reintegrated with all his past lives. They couldn't be two men, because it's the same soul.

Look below is the reason I think LTT appeared:

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and sitinct. Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why? Maybe… Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be.. Maybe it’s so that we can have a second chance.
(Veins of Gold, page 759)

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again. That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changed everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope. Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!.
(veins of gold, page 759)

LTT got a second chance and he got peace when he knew that Ilyena might live again as well. That way the two personalities got integrated.

If it was only a form of madness, than why felt RAnd more complete in TAR?

Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort, Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin’s memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable – somehow- here in this place where else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly of course, but better than they had in recent memory.
(A place to begin 237)

He’s inside my head. He was gone during the dream. But he’s back now. (A place to begin, page 241)

This fits exactly with what we know of the heroes. There is no reason for Rand to feel more complete in TAR if he made up the voice. If the voice was real and needed to be integrated in Rand's personality, than it would make sense for LTT to disappear while Rand was in TAR in the dream. (not in the flesh)

Terez: you can talk whatever you want, LTT was the real personality from LTT in the Age of Legends. Rand didn't create it to deal with some memories.

Terez
10-25-2009, 12:57 AM
Yeah, i believe that quote means he was real :)
He was the real personality of LTT Rand heard because of the taint. It wasn't a figment of imagination of Rand. We know that he heard the voice because of the taint - but those memories were never a conscious entity, which is what the argument was all about. That was an illusion subconsciously created by Rand - a symptom of his insanity.

Look below is the reason I think LTT appeared: It's a nice poetic moment, but doesn't really help your theory. Lews Therin was never a conscious entity like you claimed he was. He was always just a part of Rand - a part he wanted to deny.

LTT got a second chance and he got peace when he knew that Ilyena might live again as well. That way the two personalities got integrated. Which is even more points for our side, because the whole REASON Rand couldn't accept those memories is because he didn't want to accept Lews Therin's pain and guilt - at least, those were the main reasons. He accepts those memories now, and he has somewhat gotten over the pain of what he did as Lews Therin.

If it was only a form of madness, than why felt RAnd more complete in TAR? Because Lews Therin's memories were more natural there. They were always unnatural before. Doesn't make 'Lews Therin' a conscious entity - in fact, in your own quote, Rand recognizes that Lews Therin was a part of himself, just as he did in the other quote, where he says they were NEVER two men. Not even before he went to Tel'aran'rhiod.

When Rand is outside the dream, those memories seem unnatural (and even horrifying) to him. The reasons why are obvious.

Terez: you can talk whatever you want, LTT was the real personality from LTT in the Age of Legends. Rand didn't create it to deal with some memories. I never said that Lews Therin's memories (and the personality that goes along with them) weren't real - just that Lews Therin was not a conscious entity with a mind of his own. That was always an illusion, just as Rand said: they were not two men, and never had been. Sorry, but your theory is disproven. Let's not pretend after all these arguments that we didn't get down to the nitty gritty of our disagreement several times - your statements about him being 'the real personality' don't mean anything. It's the issue of separate consciousnesses that was always the sticking point, and that has been resolved - they were never two men. We win.

Isabel
10-25-2009, 01:29 AM
We know that he heard the voice because of the taint - but those memories were never a conscious entity, which is what the argument was all about. That was an illusion subconsciously created by Rand - a symptom of his insanity.

It was not a symptom of his insanity. It's something that has happened more often. Even Semirhage said the voice was real.
It was the real voice of LTT. We know for a fact that if Lanfear got him in tFoH that he would have been LTT.


It's a nice poetic moment, but doesn't really help your theory. Lews Therin was never a conscious entity like you claimed he was. He was always just a part of Rand - a part he wanted to deny.

It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, it should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought it back.
Perhaps if Rand would have accepted it, than he would have integrated before.


Which is even more points for our side, because the whole REASON Rand couldn't accept those memories is because he didn't want to accept Lews Therin's pain and guilt - at least, those were the main reasons. He accepts those memories now, and he has somewhat gotten over the pain of what he did as Lews Therin.

Look above. It proofs LTT was real, because otherwise, he couldn't integrate it with his own personality. It was the last incarnations personality.


Because Lews Therin's memories were more natural there. They were always unnatural before.

More natural??? What kind of bullshit is that?
Why would it be more natural there, if Rand thought it up?? If it was the real personality as i claimed and normally the heroes are fully integrated with all there personalities in TAR, than it proofs LTT was real.


Doesn't make 'Lews Therin' a conscious entity - in fact, in your own quote, Rand recognizes that Lews Therin was a part of himself, just as he did in the other quote, where he says they were NEVER two men. Not even before he went to Tel'aran'rhiod.

Two men and two personalities is different. The Dragons soul created a new personality, only because of the taint the old personality came back. That personality wasn't a man, but because it's the Dragons soul it was part of Rand.




[QUOTE] I never said that Lews Therin's memories (and the personality that goes along with them) weren't real - just that Lews Therin was not a conscious entity with a mind of his own.

PFF, you did....



Originally Posted by Frenzy
The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT.

This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.

You are saying it is just his normal inner conversation. That's not the case, he is talking to his previous incarnation. Yes, the previous incarnation should have been dead and gone, but it isn't.


statements about him being 'the real personality' don't mean anything. It's the issue of separate consciousnesses that was always the sticking point, and that has been resolved - they were never two men. We win.

LOL. You are really dilusional. The argument was always that it was the real Lews Therin awakaned by the taint or some other mechanisme. That meant that Rand could turn into LTT. You never understood why we felt that way.

It has been proved that it was the real incarnation of the dragon as LTT. That is what the 'LTT is real' have been claiming all the time. The name 'LTT is real' says it all. You cannot claim that we were wrong.

Terez
10-25-2009, 01:46 AM
It was not a symptom of his insanity. It's something that has happened more often. Even Semirhage said the voice was real.
It was the real voice of LTT. We know for a fact that if Lanfear got him in tFoH that he would have been LTT. We have had this conversation before - what Semirhage said doesn't mean anything at all, in terms of our argument, which has to do with consciousness. I have said it a billion times, but you still don't get it - Semirhage assumed that Lews Therin had told Rand who she was, but she was wrong - Rand simply remembered it.

It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, it should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought it back. What?

Perhaps if Rand would have accepted it, than he would have integrated before. Indeed! And that's what we've been saying all along - that Rand would have to be able to accept that Lews Therin was a part of who he was in order to integrate.

Look above. It proofs LTT was real, because otherwise, he couldn't integrate it with his own personality. It was the last incarnations personality. What? You're not making any sense now. If you're really daft enough to believe that we somehow thought that Lews Therin's memories and personality weren't a part of Rand's soul, then that shows how little you have comprehended our arguments over the years.

More natural??? What kind of bullshit is that? Yay, I made you mad! lol...

Why would it be more natural there, if Rand thought it up?? If it was the real personality as i claimed and normally the heroes are fully integrated with all there personalities in TAR, than it proofs LTT was real. Again, you are trying to pretend that we had some other argument than the one that we had.

Two men and two personalities is different. The Dragons soul created a new personality, only because of the taint the old personality came back. That personality wasn't a man, but because it's the Dragons soul it was part of Rand. Which is what we've been saying all along. Rand was having conversations with himself. ;)

PFF, you did.... Nope, didn't.

You are saying it is just his normal inner conversation. That's not the case, he is talking to his previous incarnation. Yes, the previous incarnation should have been dead and gone, but it isn't. He was having his normal inner conversation with himself, and pretending that he was talking to Lews Therin. But, since Lews Therin was a part of himself, and because Rand remembered Lews Therin's memories, he was actually having a conversation with himself. Not with another man. ;)

LOL. You are really dilusional. haha, this from the girl who says that RJ's quote about 'one soul two personalities' proved the two-soulers right! I think most people know who the delusional one is here.

It has been proved that it was the real incarnation of the dragon as LTT. That is what the 'LTT is real' have been claiming all the time. The name 'LTT is real' says it all. You cannot claim that we were wrong. Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand. We win.

Isabel
10-25-2009, 01:59 AM
We have had this conversation before - what Semirhage said doesn't mean anything at all, in terms of our argument, which has to do with consciousness. I have said it a billion times, but you still don't get it - Semirhage assumed that Lews Therin had told Rand who she was, but she was wrong - Rand simply remembered it.

I never mention the word consciousness, so why do you associate it with LTT is real????
Yes, Rand remembers it, because he has LTT in his head. IN ONE HEAD, so it's kind of hard to seperate it.


What?

Quite simple as I said:

It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, the personality should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought the personality back.


Indeed! And that's what we've been saying all along - that Rand would have to be able to accept that Lews Therin was a part of who he was in order to integrate.

Well, he also needed something else. He also needed to remember all his other lives...



What? You're not making any sense now. If you're really daft enough to believe that we somehow thought that Lews Therin's memories and personality weren't a part of Rand's soul, then that shows how little you have comprehended our arguments over the years.


You have always said that the voice was fake. A coping mechanism.....
While we said: the voice(including memories and personalities) were the real personality of LTT in the past.

Again, you are trying to pretend that we had some other argument than the one that we had.

And again: you are doing the same... You have never understood the 'LTT is real'position. You always brought up some bullshit and didn't see it is a difference in point of view.


Which is what we've been saying all along. Rand was having conversations with himself. ;)

No, he was having conversation with the real voice of LTT. Which infact was the same soul, so was part of him.
That's a distinction.

Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand

No,you never understood our position. LTT and Rand were seperate personalities in Rands head. Both reincarnations of the Dragon Soul. Normally speaking those reincarnations are integrated in TAR.
So when Rand comes into TAR in the dream, he feels more whole, what coincides with the LTT is real faction.

While you say that the voice is a coping mechanism. Thought up by Rand.... While that's not the case, it's the reawakened LTT. Yes, in the end it's part of the dragon soul, so part of Rand.
But that doesn't make it any difference that LTT's voice was real.

Sodas
10-25-2009, 03:32 AM
Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand.

No, you said LTT was more than a part of Rand. You said LTT was a CONSTRUCT of Rand's mind. That was the "nitty gritty" of the argument.

Hence your touting of your construct theory in multiple threads. In the poll you created, you described your own position as:

"Lews Therin's memories are real, but the "voice" is an illusion subconsciously created by Rand."
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1576&highlight=construct+theory

In the LTT debate you went on and on trying to teach us how Rand constructed the LTT persona,
See how that works? Rand had no problem with the memory that gave him a nice new weave to use against the Shaido. But when the thought about Ilyena surfaced, he had a problem with it. This is before Rand has a really developed perception of "the voice" - he doesn't really think of Lews Therin as being sentient until Lord of Chaos - but already you can see the motives that led to the construction of the persona.
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1505&page=4&highlight=construct+theory

Terez
10-25-2009, 04:03 AM
I have my response ready, but I'm going to wait till Tuesday to post it, so I'll have a better audience to work with. :D Going back and forth with you two for the next three days is for some reason completely unappealing...

Sodas
10-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Hillarious cop out.

More like you have no clue how to confuse the issue around us, and want someone else to bail you out.

LTT is real is true.
LTT is construct is false.
No matter how you try to rephrase our side or your own, we are not fooled.

Terez
10-25-2009, 05:03 PM
Sig edited. I knew one of you would give me an excuse. :)

Jokeslayer
10-25-2009, 06:02 PM
That quote alone isn't as conclusive as you'd like to think, since it relies entirely on Rand being right (ok, so we might expect him to be right about this, since it's about him, but it's not 100%). Plus clearly, at some point, they were two men. Either now, or based on the fact that LTT died at the end of the AoL and Rand is alive now.

Terez
10-25-2009, 06:15 PM
That quote alone isn't as conclusive as you'd like to think, since it relies entirely on Rand being right (ok, so we might expect him to be right about this, since it's about him, but it's not 100%). Plus clearly, at some point, they were two men. Either now, or based on the fact that LTT died at the end of the AoL and Rand is alive now.
Nope, they were never two men. When he was alive in the Age of Legends, he was Lews Therin, and then he was reborn as Rand, but it was the same man. The quote is very conclusive, because Rand is in the Hero mind when he says it, and as the Seanchan prophecy says, now the blind man sees. In other words, now he sees the TRUTH, where before, he was blind. The real'er theory is the one that has always depended on Rand being right about how he perceived Lews Therin, and that was while he was still 'blind' - this revelation is obviously true, and obviously proves construct theory, as the real'er theory always insisted that they were two men and we always insisted that they were not. It might take a little while for Callandor and I to make certain people see, after the book comes out, but we are vindicated.

Jokeslayer
10-25-2009, 06:43 PM
Nope, they were never two men. When he was alive in the Age of Legends, he was Lews Therin, and then he was reborn as Rand, but it was the same man.

The same soul, certainly, but the same man? I don't see that follows necessarily.

As far as context goes, I'll have to take your word for it, for now at least.

I don't even know why I'm getting involved in this, since I don't understand the distinction in practical terms; what effect can a real LTT have that a construct can't? or vice versa

Terez
10-25-2009, 06:58 PM
The same soul, certainly, but the same man? I don't see that follows necessarily. That's because you're trying to sum up complex issues in simple words. That's the main fault of the real'ers, by the way. Of course Rand grew up without his past life memories...but that does not make him a different man. When someone has an accident and gets amnesia, they don't all of a sudden become a different person - their personality, however, is drastically changed because they no longer have those memories.

I don't even know why I'm getting involved in this, since I don't understand the distinction in practical terms; what effect can a real LTT have that a construct can't? or vice versa Consciousness. That is the main disagreement between the real'ers and constructors. I am working on a long post that I will put up on Tuesday - perhaps the distinction will make more sense to you then...but the point is that Rand has been talking to himself all this time. His conversations with Lews Therin have been inner conversations. When Lews Therin is ranting about how much he wants to kill Taim, that means that Rand really wants to kill Taim, but that desire isn't convenient, so he funnels it through Lews Therin. Lews Therin is not having his own thoughts independent of Rand - it's all Rand, and what is essentially MPD. It's different from MPD in the sense that Rand actually has past life memories with which he can put a name and face to his other personality, but it's a mental disorder nonetheless. That's why the realization that 'they were not two men, and never had been' is what makes Rand so sure that he will never hear Lews Therin's voice again. It was never real.

As for context...I was talking about the prophecy Sodas posted earlier:

At the end of time,
when the many become one,
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.

- from The Prophecies of the Dragon,
Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's
Official Translation, Imperial
Record House of Seandar,
Fourth Circle of Elevation.

Isabel
10-25-2009, 11:10 PM
Bull shit Terez:


That's because you're trying to sum up complex issues in simple words. That's the main fault of the real'ers, by the way


Consciousness. That is the main disagreement between the real'ers and constructors.


Oh, I don't agree with how the 'LTT is real' people phrase their Theory, so lets make up some argument for them..... We real livers don't use consciousness as the main difference. I at least see if the voice is the real voice of LTT from the past as proof for LTT is real.
While you say that the voice is not the real voice of LTT.

Sodas
10-25-2009, 11:24 PM
Actually, Isabel, in America we call that covering your ass.

Step 1 ) Blame other guy
Now it's our fault we didn't use complex enough language to discuss our theory. Hilarious, I know.

Step 2 ) Falsify what the debate was about, add in non-sense
This is what Carl Rove specialized in. Change the wording, change the debate. Before we talked real versus construct. Now it's one conciousness versus seperate conciousness. Considering that the term conciousness by it's own definition is the awareness of a person OR a group of people, that is a pointless distinction.

Step 3 ) Give the false impression that we actually read the whole thing
Who needs to know the whole story before lecturing everyone on it? As long as you know more than the guy you are talking to, you'll be fine.

Step 4 ) Plug someone else's work to anyone who will listen
This is usually a purposeful leak to anyone unaware so as to bias their thoughts beforehand. In actuality, this is a last ditch attempt to stay relevant before people find out what is really going on.

Sad really.

Sodas
10-26-2009, 12:26 AM
Btw, just for the record, there are those on the Construct side who also happened to agree that LTT was a separate conscious from Rand.

There has never been a single doubt in my mind that LTT was independent of Rand -- or "real" and "sentient" in the way you mean them.

the LTT persona has been compartmentalized so thoroughly that he is so close to "Real" and "Sentient" that the distinction becomes nearly meaningless -- like asking if a radio broadcast is "real or memorex;" unless ther eadio station tells you, there is no way to distinguish between live and recorded programs.

Clearly, consciousness wasn't the debate people were having. Maybe in Terez's own mind they were ... but that isn't proven out by looking at the records of past LTT debates.

Terez
10-26-2009, 01:02 AM
I have already addressed all of your arguments in my post that will go up some time Tuesday. I have links and quotes, showing how much I have stressed the main disagreement between real and construct over the years. We haven't made up an argument for you at all. :)

WH is a constructor, but he has not been involved much in these debates over the last several years much at all. So, in truth, you could say this is about the disagreements that I had with the real'ers (not just Isa, but several of them), or the disagreements that Callandor had, because we have been the most vocal defenders of the theory. But I've seen enough of WH's arguments to know that he essentially believes the same thing that I do. The stressing of the main disagreement has come from me, though. Semantics will go out the window when I make my post on Tuesday. :)

Weird Harold
10-26-2009, 11:58 AM
WH is a constructor, but he has not been involved much in these debates over the last several years much at all.

I haven't been involved much because I don't think it is something worth arguing about because we have no real benchmark of LTT's personality while he was alive to compare a reconsituted personality to.

Is it real or is it memorex? Who cares?

Terez
10-26-2009, 12:04 PM
I haven't been involved much because I don't think it is something worth arguing about because we have no real benchmark of LTT's personality while he was alive to compare a reconsituted personality to.

Is it real or is it memorex? Who cares?
I do. ;) And a few other people as well. I'm not saying it was a bad thing you didn't participate - you can do whatever the hell you want to - was just saying that your opinions aren't representative of the debate that we have been having all this time.

Also, for me, the comparing of the Lews Therin in Rand's head to a benchmark is irrelevant to the argument. It's always been about whether or not Lews Therin has a mind of his own, or not. It's obvious that the memories are genuine, and it's also obvious that Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions have always been expressed through 'Lews Therin'.

Sarevok
10-26-2009, 12:56 PM
It's obvious that the memories are genuine, and it's also obvious that Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions have always been expressed through 'Lews Therin'.
I think we can agree on the first part. Not the second, though. :)

Terez
10-26-2009, 03:20 PM
I think we can agree on the first part. Not the second, though. :)
I'll lay it all out tomorrow in a last-ditch effort to convince more people.

I think it is clearer than it has ever been, now, and I think I can explain why in a way that will convince at least a few more people. I know that Isa won't be swayed, and some other die-hards, but I hope to at least show that I have been trying really hard for three years now to at least come to an agreement with the real'ers about what, exactly, we disagreed on (and, by extension, what we agreed on). This is what defines our theories in the end, especially when it comes to anti-factions like these. This one is a false dichotomy in a lot of ways, but there were still some clear areas where we disagreed.

Terez
10-27-2009, 04:14 AM
It's soooo silent! All the North Americans are asleep, and all the Euros/Aussies are reading! Yay!

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 07:10 PM
I finished the book. And I think it proofs that LTT was real ;)
I got the exact opposite impression, actually. But I wouldn't use the word "proof," I just think that the data in this book more perfectly lends itself to the Construct theory.

And did i miss something or is one candidate now excluded from killing asmo??
You mean LTT? Yeah, I caught that too. That was nice to see. :D

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:01 AM
Bela: so you think it proofs the voice of LTT was not authentic. That it wasn't the same as LTT's personality?

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 12:06 AM
Bela: so you think it proofs the voice of LTT was not authentic. That it wasn't the same as LTT's personality?
I believe that LTT's "voice" was nothing but an aspect of Rand's mind, yes. The memories were real, I just do not believe that those memories "spoke."

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:27 AM
You are not answering my question: do you believe the voice responded like LTT would have responded?

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 12:38 AM
You are not answering my question: do you believe the voice responded like LTT would have responded?
Well, to be fair, I answered the question you actually wrote. I didn't understand that this is what you were really asking.

I believe that the "voice" probably responded very similarly to the way LTT might have. However, there were probably differences, some small and some large, between LTT's personality in his own lifetime and the "voice" in Rand's head.

The Black Wind
10-28-2009, 09:29 PM
Since I don't want to start another thread I figured I'd post this here.

Though my memory could be failing me it appears as if we have proof that the true power can break cuendillar. If I recall correctly the male a'dam were made of cuendillar. For this reason Nyneave wanted them dropped in the ocean instead of destroyed.

In chapter 22 when Rand is bound by the domination band he draws on the true power to break free. The band then shatter's into lots of tiny pieces. The question is, am I misremembering the scene in Tanchico (a distinct posibility) or is this finally proof on how the seals are weakening?

WinespringBrother
10-28-2009, 09:51 PM
Since I don't want to start another thread I figured I'd post this here.

Though my memory could be failing me it appears as if we have proof that the true power can break cuendillar. If I recall correctly the male a'dam were made of cuendillar. For this reason Nyneave wanted them dropped in the ocean instead of destroyed.

In chapter 22 when Rand is bound by the domination band he draws on the true power to break free. The band then shatter's into lots of tiny pieces. The question is, am I misremembering the scene in Tanchico (a distinct posibility) or is this finally proof on how the seals are weakening?

I don't think Moridin is going around breaking seals with the TP, but rather the DO is channeling at the void imprisoning him over time to weaken the seals. That would explain the evil that Nynaeve felt from the one they took from Tanchico.

ShadowbaneX
10-28-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't think Moridin is going around breaking seals with the TP, but rather the DO is channeling at the void imprisoning him over time to weaken the seals. That would explain the evil that Nynaeve felt from the one they took from Tanchico.
much like the way Rand broke the shield that was holding him in LoC? Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking too. Throw all your force at one of the knots/foci holding the shield in place, overpowering it and breaking it one at a time.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 10:19 PM
Though my memory could be failing me it appears as if we have proof that the true power can break cuendillar. If I recall correctly the male a'dam were made of cuendillar. For this reason Nyneave wanted them dropped in the ocean instead of destroyed.
I might be forgetting a quick mention somewhere, but I don't think the Domination Band was actually made of cuendillar. It was described as "a necklace and two bracelets of jointed black metal" (tSR ch.52), and I believe cuendillar is described as being more ceramic?

However, they did try to melt the DB with the Power, and failed to even warm it. That's likely what you're thinking of.

The Black Wind
10-28-2009, 10:36 PM
I might be forgetting a quick mention somewhere, but I don't think the Domination Band was actually made of cuendillar. It was described as "a necklace and two bracelets of jointed black metal" (tSR ch.52), and I believe cuendillar is described as being more ceramic?

However, they did try to melt the DB with the Power, and failed to even warm it. That's likely what you're thinking of.

You very well may be correct. I don't have the books on me unfortunately, but I seemed to recall them being unable to destroy it. This led me to believe it was cuendillar. oops... :p

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 12:02 AM
Yeah, I don't get much into Asmo, but I'll be happy if it's not her as well. It's so....boring. Just about anyone would be more interesting.

Umm...I hadn't really thought of Asmodean till now after tGS, but Rand used the Choedan Kal to kill Graendal in that fortress with a HUGE AMOUNT of balepower.

Did Asmodean never die in Caemyln, now? :eek: :eek:

Did Rand do what the Dark One could not do as Lord of the Grave? Bring a balepowered Asmodean back to life, in essence?

Are we going to see Asmodean and Mat striking up of a conversation in ToM, in Caemlyn next?

Asmodean the ex-Chosen who just won't stay dead? Rahvin balefired him...Graendal killed him(?)...yet does he live again because of Rand's indirect actions?

Terez
10-29-2009, 12:22 AM
You very well may be correct. I don't have the books on me unfortunately, but I seemed to recall them being unable to destroy it. This led me to believe it was cuendillar. oops... :p Moghedien said they were a form of cuendillar:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 54 - Into the Palace

"So you discovered that little gem behind you," Moghedien said in a moment of precarious balance. Surprisingly, her voice was almost conversational. "I wonder how you did that. It does not matter. Did you come to take it away? Perhaps to destroy it? You cannot destroy it. That is not metal, but a form of cuendillar. Even balefire cannot destroy cuendillar. And if you mean to use it, it does have... drawbacks, shall we say? Put the collar on a man who channels, and a woman wearing the bracelets can make him do whatever she wishes, true, but it will not stop him going mad, and there is a flow the other way, too. Eventually he will begin to be able to control you, too, so you end with a struggle at every hour. Not very palatable when he is going mad. Of course, you can pass the bracelets around, so no one has too much exposure, but that does mean trusting someone else with him. Men are always so good at violence; they make wonderful weapons. Or two women can each wear one bracelet, if you have someone you trust enough; that slows the seepage considerably, I understand, but it also lessens your control, even if you work in perfect unison. Eventually, you will find yourselves in a struggle for control with him, each of you needing him to remove your bracelet as surely as he needs you to remove the collar." She tilted her head, lifted a quizzical eyebrow. "You are following this, I trust? Controlling Lews Therin – Rand al'Thor as he is called now – would be most useful, but is it worth the price? You can see why I have left the collar and bracelets where they are." They were indeed unable to destroy it, hence the girls asking Domon to drop it in the deep ocean. Then his ship was seized by Egeanin, and then Semirhage got hold of it.

PS - Keep in mind even the old folks here can be rusty on the books. ;)

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 12:49 AM
My thanks quote mistress.


~bows respectfully~



It has been suggested that the DO planned the entire Semirhage incident so as to force Rand to tap into the TP. I don't buy this. Wouldn't the DO much rather have Rand on a leash at SG then walking the world?

I believe that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin. The DO was unaware of this possibility which led to Rand escaping the seemingly inescapable domination band by using the TP to break the unbreakable.

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:13 AM
My thanks quote mistress.
No prob.

It has been suggested that the DO planned the entire Semirhage incident so as to force Rand to tap into the TP. I don't buy this.
I do.

Wouldn't the DO much rather have Rand on a leash at SG then walking the world?
It's not part of the plan. Moridin is controlling Rand from the inside, and that's more advantageous, apparently, than having him on a leash. We don't know exactly why yet but I have a feeling there's a good reason.

I believe that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin. The DO was unaware of this possibility which led to Rand escaping the seemingly inescapable domination band by using the TP to break the unbreakable.
That would make more sense if not for 1) Moridin's anger at Semirhage and his desire for revenge, and 2) Moridin's orders to Graendal, to cause him pain of heart.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 02:04 AM
I wasn't aware moridin ordered around Shadar Haron which is what would be required for Moridin to pull this off. Therefore Moridin's anger at semirhage is irrelevant in the planning of this event because it likely came directly from the DO not moridin.

As for pain of heart. Semi was just pissed that she couldn't cause Rand pain so she decided to try and break him. I didn't hear Shadar Haron tell semirhage to make Rand kill Min. It was her perogative and an unnecessary delay which got her killed. Again, not part of Moridin's plans or in any way related to his orders to graendal.

Therefore I'm right and you're wrong. :p ;) :D

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:05 AM
I wasn't aware moridin ordered around Shadar Haron which is what would be required for Moridin to pull this off.
What, they can't be working together? lol...that's exactly what they did, for instance, when Moghedien was mindtrapped.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 02:10 AM
That still doesn't account for Semirhage going rouge and trying to make Rand kill Min. I don't think it's likely they would have anticipated that happening. At least not enough to bank their entire plan on it. And since Rand getting desperate enough to channel the true power is essential to your argument I just don't see it being correct.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:14 AM
That still doesn't account for Semirhage going rouge and trying to make Rand kill Min. I don't think it's likely they would have anticipated that happening.
Apparently they know Semirhage better than you do. ;)

At least not enough to bank their entire plan on it. And since Rand getting desperate enough to channel the true power is essential to your argument I just don't see it being correct.
Well, he didn't sense the True Power till he got desperate, and whatever Semirhage was going to do to him, they would have known it would make him desperate. Moridin would have had to suffer some pain, though.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 02:19 AM
But Shadar Haron didn't give her orders to torture Rand. It seems like they're leaving it to chance. And I'm still not convinced that Moridin and Shadar Haron were working together on this one. As you said, Moridin would have to suffer pain to accomplish this plan. The very same pain he was so angry at Semirhage for giving him in the first place. It's just a bit inconsistent.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:34 AM
But Shadar Haron didn't give her orders to torture Rand.
LMAO! Like I said...looks like they know her better than you. :)

It seems like they're leaving it to chance. And I'm still not convinced that Moridin and Shadar Haron were working together on this one. As you said, Moridin would have to suffer pain to accomplish this plan. The very same pain he was so angry at Semirhage for giving him in the first place. It's just a bit inconsistent.
I don't think he was so much worried about the pain - after all, Rand wasn't hurting any more at the time we saw him freak over the hand. It's likely just feeling really weird to him, and it's a permanent problem - at least, so long as they're linked.

Also, he might have had some way to shield himself against the pain, if he's expecting it (he wasn't, before). He knows Semirhage well enough to know that she wouldn't kill him right off, and that she was more likely to use her pain-causing weaves than body-damaging weaves because she likes to keep them alive as long as possible.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 02:41 AM
Maybe you're right. Semirhage was such a sadist that she let her desires get in the way of staying alive and gaining the DO approval again.

In all honesty I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not. Is semi so blind that she let her pleasures get in the way of staying alive? Possibly. But it's hard to believe someone could be so incompetent.

Also, he might have had some way to shield himself against the pain, if he's expecting it (he wasn't, before). He knows Semirhage well enough to know that she wouldn't kill him right off, and that she was more likely to use her pain-causing weaves than body-damaging weaves because she likes to keep them alive as long as possible.

This is pure conjecture in my opinion.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:45 AM
So far as Semirhage knew, there was no reason for her to believe that torturing Rand would lead to her death. Moridin ordered her not to harm him, but she might well have seen Shaidar Haran's rescuing of her to override that. Because why else would he set her on that job unless he wanted her to do what she does best?

Also, it's not conjecture that Semirhage likes to keep them alive as long as possible (she thought that). Her methods that we saw were aimed directly at the parts of the brain that deal with pain, and pleasure (which she also uses to torture).

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 02:50 AM
Mmmm....

~waffles~

I need more practice in Theoryland debates. You may be right. I'll have to concede for now. To be continued upon a reread of the section in question.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 05:59 PM
Moghedien said they were a form of cuendillar:

PS - Keep in mind even the old folks here can be rusty on the books. ;)
Ah yes, I thought there was a bit I was forgetting. Did a text search for "a'dam", but I forgot to do the same search for "cuendillar."

Anyway I would have to agree with at least part of Windy's argument - I have a gut feeling that no-one (save possibly the Dark One himself) actually expected Rand to be able to use the True Power there. I interpreted it as another aspect of the strange bond between Rand and Moridin, which even Moridin admits he still doesn't understand. Of course, now that the DO has his claws in Rand, there's no chance he'll let go. ;)

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 06:17 PM
Anyway I would have to agree with at least part of Windy's argument -

Haha... I like that shorthand. :)

I have a gut feeling that no-one (save possibly the Dark One himself) actually expected Rand to be able to use the True Power there. I interpreted it as another aspect of the strange bond between Rand and Moridin, which even Moridin admits he still doesn't understand.

I agree. If the Semirhage incident was planned then I think it came from straight from the DO. No way Moridin could have predicted Rand's use of the True Power.

Of course, now that the DO has his claws in Rand, there's no chance he'll let go.

What are the consequences of Rand touching the TP anyway?

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 06:46 PM
I agree. If the Semirhage incident was planned then I think it came from straight from the DO. No way Moridin could have predicted Rand's use of the True Power.

This.


Anyway I would have to agree with at least part of Windy's argument - I have a gut feeling that no-one (save possibly the Dark One himself) actually expected Rand to be able to use the True Power there. I interpreted it as another aspect of the strange bond between Rand and Moridin, which even Moridin admits he still doesn't understand. Of course, now that the DO has his claws in Rand, there's no chance he'll let go. ;)

I am not confident that Shadar Haran and Moridin were acting together in this release of Semi. I believe Moridin wrote her off and considered her a done deal when he ordered no aid be sent to her from any of the chosen.
I think Shadar Haran acted on his own to free her. Whether or not he did so because he was trying to force Rand to use the True Power... I don't really think that was something he forsaw because of a theory I am coming up with:


What are the consequences of Rand touching the TP anyway?

What i found most interesting in that encounter was that just moments prior, Rand was talking to LTT in his mind about what went wrong when he sealed the prison. I immediately jotted that particular page number down...



Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What did we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.

Now, in light of Rand having touched the True Power, and being able to use it... I think it is quite possible that Rand will use the True Power to completely reseal the Bore, good as new. The One Power has already been proven to be corruptible by the Dark one... It makes sense to me that the only seal of the Bore that can possible work and not be tainted and corrupted by the Dark One... is the power of the Dark One himself.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 07:04 PM
That did occur to me. There has been some consideration on other forums that Callandor is not only a One Power Sa'angreal but work with the True Power as well. This would make sense considering the apparent flaw it has. I'm not sure I buy it though. Just for the fact that I don't want Rand using Evil to fight the Dark one. Rand is a force of good and shouldn't be forced to use the True Power to win the last battle.

~shrug~

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 07:14 PM
That did occur to me. There has been some consideration on other forums that Callandor is not only a One Power Sa'angreal but work with the True Power as well. This would make sense considering the apparent flaw it has. I'm not sure I buy it though. Just for the fact that I don't want Rand using Evil to fight the Dark one. Rand is a force of good and shouldn't be forced to use the True Power to win the last battle.

~shrug~

I thought of that too, that the flaw in callandor might possibly amplify the True Power

...however, I no longer sure that the True Power has any limits as to how much one can draw:



And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he's never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

It is HIM.

Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force. Energy and life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent. It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before. It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined. It rivaled, even, the power he held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

So I am not sure if amplification would be required.

Besides, the flaw magnifies the taint... the taint isnt the True Power.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 09:15 PM
...however, I no longer sure that the True Power has any limits as to how much one can draw:
I think that's to do with a fundamental difference between the OP and the TP. Namely, one can draw only a certain amount of the OP, which is predetermined by the body one has - this can obviously be multiplied by angreal, but it's still an augmentation from your preexisting baseline. The TP, however, seems to be doled out "personally" by the Dark One; ergo, in theory, one could use however much He deigns to give you access to at one time.