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Tercel
10-22-2009, 01:32 AM
I was thinking about possible fates for Elaida.

If Aes Sedai (Egwene, or the Hall) actually overthrow Elaida and replace her with Egwene it is a bit of a scar on Egwene's long term reputation and will contribute adversely to the dissent already in the tower.

I think the most elegant way to go from Elaida to Egwene as Amyrlin is through the Seanchan attack. Rather than being removed from within, if Elaida is removed by an external force, it's much better for the Tower and Egwene.

I therefore believe the power of plot-convenience will win-out and that the Seanchan attack will kill or capture Elaida paving the way for Egwene's ascension. Everyone will say "oh well, how sad, never mind" about Elaida's death and then acknowledge Egwene as the new Amyrlin. The Red Ajah gets to save face by not having their Amyrlin actually deposed. It is poetically ironic, that the very attack Elaida stubbornly refuses to believe in is the attack that removes her from power and puts Egwene into it.

This leaves the question of whether Elaida will be killed or captured and made Damane. Jordan's strong tendency to have bad females suffer terrible non-deadly fates and have the males die quick deaths, would have made this very predictable if RJ was still writing: Definitely Elaida would be made Damane. But BS might go with her dying instead.

I'm guessing that this would be part of the plot RJ outlined before his death, hence I strongly believe that we will see Elaida collared rather than killed.

To add insult to injury, I suspect that the Black-Ajah-Hunter's theory that Elaida is Black may become popular knowledge after Elaida has been collared.

Also, I have to wonder what Mesaana will do when the Seanchan attack... presumably she will be forced to fight back and reveal herself as a powerful channeler. Since she also needs to suffer a fate worse than death (according to the RJ does this to evil female characters thesis), her being collared by the Seanchan too could well apply.

Sodas
10-22-2009, 02:05 AM
I agree that is the most likely scenario.

At this point, I'm more curious if it will be something that was strategic or accidental on the part of the Seachean.

Enigma
10-22-2009, 05:52 AM
I could see a problem with Elaida being carried away by the Seanchan. I know that the AS could remove her from the post due to her inibility to carry out her functions but she is still out there.

Historically deposed Amrylins have not been allowed to run free in case they became the centre of descent against the new management. Worse if Elaida was removed due to the Seanchan her deposing would be more along the lines of incapacity rather than stated misbehavour.

At lease if she was tried for her numerous disasterour command decisions there would be less chance of anyone rallying around her. If she is removed simply because she was captured, any faction that did not like the new boss could try to get her freed and then there could be a new civil war as disidents rallied around the "true Amyrlin Elaida".

GonzoTheGreat
10-22-2009, 05:56 AM
Rand is supposedly going to get a huge quarrel with "the Amyrlin". If that happens to be Egwene, then he could Tuon to send him Elaida, and then formally acknowledge her. Wouldn't that be fun? :D

Enigma
10-22-2009, 06:00 AM
I doubt if that would work but it might be worth the effort just to wipe the smile of Egwene's face, not that I don't like Egwene or anything.

Wunderwaffe
10-22-2009, 11:15 AM
I don't want to see Elaida killed. Death is far too easy a fate for someone so awful. I'd like to see Elaida fare even worse than our Little Lina. Hm. I'm going to have to think about this.

GonzoTheGreat
10-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Elaida is not evil, though. She is merely stupidly arrogant.
Which raises the interesting philosophical question: should stupidity be punished?

Wunderwaffe
10-22-2009, 11:26 AM
In Elaida's case, stupidity should be punished. Her failures are on a grand scale, and she is in a very influential and powerful office. Her office doesn't afford the luxury of mistakes, especially mistakes such as Dumai's Wells, the attack on the Black Tower, her failure to ally the White Tower with the Dragon Reborn, her failure at keeping the Tower unified in time of crisis, her failure at controlling her emotions, specifically her temper. Elaida may not be a Darkfriend, but I consider her evil.

That Elaida needs to be broken is quite clear, but how exactly to go about doing it is the question. Something that adequately balances all of the ill she has accomplished since her coup d'état and rise to power. I'm thinking of using the Oath Rod, but as for the specifics, I haven't contemplated this enough to find a desirable solution.

Enigma
10-22-2009, 02:21 PM
Elaida has a few things going for her that should reduce the seriousness of any charges against her. First she was brushed by Fain and his particular brank of evil. After that her judgement was bound to be a bit warped.

After that she was manipulated by Alviarin, who seems to be pretty good as far as manipulation. She did manipulate SH to save her from a forsaken, and that deserves a prise if nothing else.

From the books we have been shown that some of the things she was ordered done and some of the orders she had to give under duress from Alviarin actually shocked and horified Elaida. Aside from her blind spot as to the Blue Ajah, Elaida does not actually want the Ajah's at each others throat.

Her failings are two fold in my opinion. When Alvarin first tired to blackmail her and she could see what the orders were leading to she should have resigned. Calling Alvairin's bluf would take some guts to but the world was at stake.

Secondly when she did get out from under Alviarin's thumb when she could see that her "healing" tacticts were only making things worse she should have tired a different approach. If she was unable to do that she should have handed in her notice.

Unfortunatly Fain seems to have exadurated Elaida's latent hunger for power and obsession with total obedience. That is not what is needed to reunite the various AS factions and even her Red Keeper can see that.

Stupidity might be grounds for removal from office but I doubt if it warrents execution. If it does can anyone here point to any of the main characters who have not done someting stupid on several occasions?

Tercel
10-22-2009, 04:43 PM
Also, I was listening again to chapter 2 of The Gathering Storm on Tor.com yesterday, and...
When Egwene was upset at Elaida's refusal to believe her about the Seanchan attack, she thought something like "Elaida wouldn't be convinced until the Seanchan slapped a cold hard a'dam around her neck". That struck me as a hint at what might be to come...

Callandor
10-22-2009, 07:43 PM
My favorite punishment for her was to be bonded against her will to an Asha'man. Maybe to top it off, a Seanchan that trained as an Asha'man, but that would take a long time.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

1Powerslave
10-23-2009, 12:36 PM
I very much would like to see Elaida as a damane. I think it can be justified easiliy that Elaida as a damane would be a non-threat to the new Amyrlin. If they now decide to depose Elaida in her absence. The Tower must be strong! Soon almost every living Aes Sedai blame Elaida for breaking the Tower. She standing so low would make her a non-threat to a new Amyrlin even if she was freed from her damane-hood.

But if they decide that allowing their Amyrlin's kidnapping to go unanswered is too much bad publicity, then I don't know what will happen. Though I can't see that scenario plotwise.

This theory is very similar to how I first imagined the Seanchan attack and Egwene gaining the Amyrlin Seat.

4Alethinos
10-24-2009, 12:59 PM
I think that a capture by the Seanchan is most likely since her apartments are at the top of the WT and that is the most likely place for an aerial attack to land.

I do not believe for a heartbeat that Elaida is Black Ajah. She certainly is a headstrong and typically blind Red Ajah member, but she does have what she believes are the best intersests of the AS at heart. She is wrong but not evil per se.

Callandor, it is a joy to see an occasional post by you again. Yes, you can be really evil when you consider about what would be an appropriate punishment for Elaida. Way to go!

"let the punishment suit the crime and the person." :cool:

tworiverswoman
10-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Elaida has a few things going for her that should reduce the seriousness of any charges against her. First she was brushed by Fain and his particular brank of evil. After that her judgement was bound to be a bit warped. Yes, but the Fain/Mordeth influence happened AFTER she engineered the coup against Siuan Sanche. While it has undoubtedly increased her level of paranoia and self-aggrandizement, Siuan once mused to herself that she would never forgive Elaida because her REASONS for taking the Amyrlin Seat were entirely self-serving.
After that she was manipulated by Alviarin, who seems to be pretty good as far as manipulation. She did manipulate SH to save her from a forsaken, and that deserves a prise if nothing else. Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about, here. If Shaidar Haran took Alviarin down a peg or two, Elaida had no hand in it.
From the books we have been shown that some of the things she was ordered done and some of the orders she had to give under duress from Alviarin actually shocked and horified Elaida. Aside from her blind spot as to the Blue Ajah, Elaida does not actually want the Ajah's at each others throat. Well, no -- no true Aes Sedai wants the tower broken. However, subtext on her horrified reactions showed that most of her dismay was at the realization that everyone would blame HER for the orders -- not actually the orders themselves. And the way she sets the sisters against one another, having one Ajah search another Ajah's quarters, the "punishments" and so forth -- I'm not so sure she doesn't approve of having the various Ajah's in a state of mutual distrust. It makes it so much easier for her to stay on top of them.
Her failings are two-fold in my opinion. When Alviarin first tired to blackmail her and she could see what the orders were leading to, she should have resigned. Calling Alviarin's bluff would take some guts, too, but the world was at stake.

Secondly, when she did get out from under Alviarin's thumb when she could see that her "healing" tactics were only making things worse she should have tired a different approach. If she was unable to do that she should have handed in her notice.

Unfortunatly Fain seems to have exadurated <exaggerated? exacerbated?> Elaida's latent hunger for power and obsession with total obedience. That is not what is needed to reunite the various AS factions and even her Red Keeper can see that. Agree 100% with these. Except I'm not sure about her having any "healing tactics" at all. Nothing she did at any point struck me as an attempt to "heal" anything in the Tower, with or without the Rebels.
Stupidity might be grounds for removal from office but I doubt if it warrants execution. If it does can anyone here point to any of the main characters who have not done something stupid on several occasions? "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." -- Robert Heinlein


ETA: And yes -- I think capture by the Seanchan and a long and fruitful life as a damane is undoubtedly her future. It would be emotionally satisfying.

Also, I suspect that, following Bonwhin, the White Tower might well make an internal edict to never again allow a member of the Red Ajah to become Amyrlin. I wonder if someone will make a piece of artwork starring Elaida? And what would it look like?

Enigma
10-25-2009, 12:23 PM
I can't believe I am going to defend Elaida but hell its a challenge so here goes.

Yes, but the Fain/Mordeth influence happened AFTER she engineered the coup against Siuan Sanche. While it has undoubtedly increased her level of paranoia and self-aggrandizement, Siuan once mused to herself that she would never forgive Elaida because her REASONS for taking the Amyrlin Seat were entirely self-serving.

Elaida dislikes Siuan and the Blues. I think this is accepted by everyone but then Siuan did not think too much of Elaida or the Reds either. There is nothing wrong with disliking someone though one should try to not let it affect your judgment, which Elaid did to a degree.

Likewise Elaida is ambitious, but again there is nothing wrong with that either. She wanted the top job. I do think that she though that she could do a better job that Siuan. This does not make her a bad person.

If you look at politics in say the US or the UK. The Republicans seem to thinkt they would do a must better job that the Democrats in running the coutry. The Tories think Labout is leading the nation to ruin as well and visa versa. Would either group leep at a chance to replace their political oposition and grab the reins of power? I suspect they would.

Part of the coup was Siuan's fault. Personally I don't think Siuan was a very good leader. A good adminisrator perhaps but a leader? I'm not so sure. Part of a leader's job is to bring their followers with them. Siuan had a plan but she confided in no one except Moiraine so no one knew what she was doing.

I never understood the need to keep the news about the Dragon Reborn a secret for fear of the BA. They already knew. I could understand not giving all the details, but both Siuan and Moiraine knew that the BA already knew about the birth of the Dragon Reborn by the end of New Spring. If she had let the leaders of the Ajah's/Sitters in on what she was doing a lot of her problems would have eased in the Tower.

Siuan tried to rule by decree and surprise surprise AS are not commoners used to doing what they are told. They were kept out of the loop so jumped to the wrong conclusions and decided on a change of management.


Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about, here. If Shaidar Haran took Alviarin down a peg or two, Elaida had no hand in it.

What I was trying to say was Alviarin was a compitent if not good plotter so its no shame for Elaida to be caught up in her web initially. Mesaana was about to deal with her very harshly but Alviarin got SH on side to save her bacon by suggesting a danger to the BA that only she could deal with. It certainly bought her a new lease of life as far as Mesaana

Well, no -- no true Aes Sedai wants the tower broken. However, subtext on her horrified reactions showed that most of her dismay was at the realization that everyone would blame HER for the orders -- not actually the orders themselves. And the way she sets the sisters against one another, having one Ajah search another Ajah's quarters, the "punishments" and so forth -- I'm not so sure she doesn't approve of having the various Ajah's in a state of mutual distrust. It makes it so much easier for her to stay on top of them.

I stand to be corrected but I think it was Alviarin who ordered the search of a Sisters apartments and a reward given to another sitter. It was my impression that Elaida was actually worried about the consequence of her actions with regards to Ajah relations. She was worried she would get the blame for the disaster of Rand's kidnapping attempt and the strike on the BT.

Agree 100% with these. Except I'm not sure about her having any "healing tactics" at all. Nothing she did at any point struck me as an attempt to "heal" anything in the Tower, with or without the Rebels.

Its easy to miss:) Elaida's version of healing the rifts in the Tower is that everyone stop plotting or thinking independantly and just follow her orders. If it ever worked it would unite the Tower but I do think that it would have a very small chance of ever working.

"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." -- Robert Heinlein

I don't think Stupidity is on the statute books as a crime though it does have consequences. Certainly Elaida should be diposed but I don't think she deserves death.


ETA: And yes -- I think capture by the Seanchan and a long and fruitful life as a damane is undoubtedly her future. It would be emotionally satisfying.

I could go with this for Semirhage but Elaida never had intent to do harm. From a legal point of view her mens rea was more like recklessness that intent. That usually followed by being charged with a lesser crime.

Also, I suspect that, following Bonwhin, the White Tower might well make an internal edict to never again allow a member of the Red Ajah to become Amyrlin. I wonder if someone will make a piece of artwork starring Elaida? And what would it look like?

Yet we have a Red Mistess of Novices who I think Egwene is comming to personally respect, a Red Keeper who has broken the mold and is going to bond an Asha'man or a Red Sitter who may be responsible for routing out the Black Ajah.