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Isabel
10-26-2009, 04:13 AM
The main difference between the “LTT is real” and “LTT is a construct” is the voice.
The realers believe the voice is actually the real voice from LTT and the constructers believe the voice is a construct. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1576&highlight=construct+theory)

In this post I will proof that with the evidence we have from EotW till TGS we can conclude that the voice was the real voice of LTT.

-Proof number 1: In the past it has happened before that people heard voices and that dead people took over the living. This has been stated as far back as the EoTW. Plus it is said that the voice and the current day personality needs to be reintegrated.

The dead can be reborn, or take a living body and it is not something to speak of lightly. The old blood she said. The blood, not a dead man. I’ve heard it can happen, sometimes. (Eotw, Thom, Shadow’s waiting, page 235)

He’s insane. Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin could know. Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice.
It makes no difference that this voice is real, however.Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.
(KoD, a plain wooden box, Semirhage, p 592)

Semirhage is saying two important things here: 1. Sometimes people hear voices of past lives and 2. It needs to be reintegrated.

At this time she had no reason to lie. It actually causes Rand more stress by saying this.
So these two things are facts. This is what has happened in the past.

So why if dead people can take over the living and it was known in the age of legends and it was known that reintegration was needed, why can’t it be what is happening with Rand?

-Proof number 2: Rand feels more stable and reintegrated into TAR, while he is in the dream. In the dream he doesn’t hear LTT’s voice. This coincides with what we know of Birgitte. That the heroes in TAR are completely reintegrated.

Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort, Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin’s memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable – somehow- here in this place where else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly of course, but better than they had in recent memory.
(A place to begin 237)

He’s inside my head. He was gone during the dream. But he’s back now. (A place to begin, page 241)
If the voice of LTT isn’t part of the LTT personality and is a construct, why would it disappear in TAR while Rand is dreaming? He constructed the voice himself, so it should be there. The voice would have had nothing to do with the LTT personality from the past.

While if it is part of the LTT personality from the age of legends than it is logical that Rand can’t hear the voice while dreaming into TAR. It is than a part of him, as it should be.

-Proof number 3:
Based on the following quotes we know the following:
1. Rand hears the real voice of LTT.
2. That voice needs to be reintegrated with Rand.
3. In TAR we see an example how it should be. Rand still has some memories, but he doesn’t hear the voice.
4. Now only the reintegration needs to happen.

The reintegration happens as follows:

Why do we have to do this again? He whispered. I have already failed. She is dead by my hand. Why must you make me live it again?

Why? Why had the Creator done this to them? Why?
Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct. Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why? Maybe… Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be.. Maybe it’s so that we can have a second chance.
(Veins of Gold, page 759)

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again. That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changed everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope. Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
(veins of gold, page 759)

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew somehow that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
(Veins of gold, page 760)

We see Rand slowly accepting that he is LTT as well. He sees all his lives he lived. He realizes that Lews Therin’s voice was him in the past. They were not two men. Lews Therin was him in the past. Rand is basicly LTT.
Notice that Rand says ‘Lews Therin’s voice’ and not the voice. He says Lews Therin’s voice. He has seen all his lives, but still he realizes it was the real voice of his past incarnation.

Another thing I think helped with the reintegration is LTT letting everything go. Ilyena might live again. Rand is there to correct his errors.


Conclusion:
Rand heard the real voice of LTT in the past. He won’t hear it again, because it is reintegrated into his own personality.

Isabel
10-26-2009, 04:25 AM
Does any realer has an addition?

Terez
10-26-2009, 04:31 AM
Isa, Tam asked us to confine post-chapter 2 discussion to that one thread until the book is released. You should delete this thread.

I'll be starting a new one anyway, since your straw men are incredibly weak, and your posts are incomprehensible. Better to start off the thread with an argument that actually makes sense.

Also, the title of this thread is a spoiler itself. Tam asked us not to do that as well.

Isabel
10-26-2009, 05:07 AM
Terez: You are just annoyed, that you couldn't start with an own thread about LTT and Rand.
You just have to post into this thread ;) I was first, so you just have to react to this thread :P

If things are incomprehensible, just ask what something means, and I try to clear it up:)

The title isn't a spoiler: it's just a discussion about Rand and LTT. That's nothing new...

Terez
10-26-2009, 05:10 AM
Terez: You are just annoyed, that you couldn't start with an own thread about LTT and Rand.
I'm going to start one anyway. I could have been first easily, because my post has been written since yesterday, but I didn't want to continue with you and Sodas, and I respected Tam's rule about starting new threads. I'm going to start a new one because it's better to start a thread with a comprehensible OP. Yours starts out with a false premise, and I addressed that in my post which will go up tomorrow, despite your childish attempts to beat me to the punch.

And the title is a spoiler, because it clearly says that there is an important Lews Therin topic that is dealt with in this book.

Isabel
10-26-2009, 05:14 AM
No it doesn't say there is an important Lews Therin topic. As people know we can discuss anything about LTT.

You cannot post a post yet, because you haven't read the complete book.

Isabel
10-26-2009, 05:16 AM
BTW what is the false premise??? I would like to know that.
Since it is a fact that the argument was : The voice of LTT is real and the voice of LTT was a construct. That is exactly what you posted in your poll. It's not my problem you create other issues around this topic.

Terez
10-26-2009, 05:44 AM
You will see what I'm talking about when I post my thread. Be patient. ;)

Isabel
10-26-2009, 06:22 AM
Well, i will await your reply in this thread.
I warn you, don't try to tell me what my theory is.

the_dead
10-26-2009, 06:32 AM
If LTT was a construct. Hows was Rand healed??? Cause LTT is no longer there!!!!!

Isabel
10-26-2009, 06:45 AM
Exactly that is my point. During the reintegration, Rand remembered all his lives and accepted them. He didn't think 'hey the voice doesn't sound like LTT at all'. The only thing he did think was that they were never two persons. Because Rand was LTT in the past.

Terez
10-26-2009, 06:46 AM
The 'voice' is no longer there, but Rand still has the memories. Rand thinks to himself that he will never hear the voice again BECAUSE he has realized that they were not two different people, and never had been. Lews Therin has ALWAYS been a part of himself, so to say that "LTT is no longer there" is extremely inaccurate. Rand's misconception of Lews Therin is what is no longer there. ;)

Isabel
10-26-2009, 07:05 AM
So terez, that still doesn't answer the question if the voice Rand heard was the real voice of LTT. LTT was Rand in the past, so in a sense it was the same person. Rand accepted it, and he got reintegrated. The same as he would have been if he died and went into TAR.

the_dead
10-26-2009, 07:10 AM
For it to be a construct. There must have been some form of madness. He was not healed so what happend to him then? I think he got reintegrated. Which would mean he was there.

Terez
10-26-2009, 07:40 AM
So terez, that still doesn't answer the question if the voice Rand heard was the real voice of LTT.
It was not, because in order for it to be that, Lews Therin and Rand would have to be different people, which it has clearly been said that they are not. That doesn't mean that the Lews Therin's memories weren't real, or that Rand didn't occasionally accurately represent Lews Therin's personality in some way through the constructed personality. But most often, that 'personality' expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions. The memories came directly to Rand, something like 99% of the time. The constructed personality was Rand's way of disassociating himself from Lews Therin.

For it to be a construct. There must have been some form of madness. He was not healed so what happend to him then?
What happened is that he realized that he and Lews Therin were the same man, and always had been. It was his denial of this that caused him to construct the persona in his head. The reintegration happened when he finally accepted the truth.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 01:22 AM
You still haven't replied to my post. There are simply 3 things you have to reply to.

Terez
10-27-2009, 01:24 AM
I told you - it will all be in the post I make later today. :)

Isabel
10-27-2009, 01:29 AM
You have to reply to my post and my points. I posted the thread first ;)
If you are so afraid that your theory doesn't make any sense if it isn't posted on its own.... tsk tsk tsk.

Terez
10-27-2009, 02:25 AM
haha, I said I was going to reply to your points. Pay attention. Also, no one is impressed that you made a thread before I did, seeing as how I said in the first place I wasn't going to make mine till the book came out. And finally...I want to finish the parts of the book I didn't read before I post, so that I can use any other interesting quotes that might be hiding in there. Though the one I've got is really all I need, it can't hurt to have more. ;)

the_dead
10-27-2009, 02:51 AM
What happened is that he realized that he and Lews Therin were the same man, and always had been. It was his denial of this that caused him to construct the persona in his head. The reintegration happened when he finally accepted the truth.
But you are stating here that he had a form of madness and it just went away because he realized he was crazy? I haved lived the mentaly ill. f he indeed had a form of maness it would not have gone away because he realized it was crazy. He would still have trhe construct un his head talking to him. My uncle knew he was crazy and it never changed what he did.Even though he was aware that alot of what he did was not normal he could do nothing about it. So if at any point hehad a construct like you say. He was crazy and crazy dont just disappear. And you have showed nothing to prove he was healed. He cant heal himself can he??? No. So tell me where did the madness that caused this construct of yours go?

And the truth will not heal crazy.

Terez
10-27-2009, 03:16 AM
But you are stating here that he had a form of madness and it just went away because he realized he was crazy?
Not exactly. The cause of the mental disorder in the first place was the fact that Rand disassociated himself from Lews Therin's memories. He refused to admit that they were his own memories. Once he realized this was false, the mental disorder disappeared.

Of course, it helped that he finally forgave himself as well. That was a huge part of the reason he never wanted to accept Lews Therin's memories as his own - he couldn't forgive himself for what he did (which is why he kept wanting and even trying to kill himself).

Rand's mental disorder was unique - you can't really compare it to real world mental disorders without taking into account the important differences.

the_dead
10-27-2009, 04:35 AM
But your argument is full of things that relate to real world disorders. So I am asking for answers based on those things is all. If you use real world disoders to explain what you see. Then there should be real world answers to explain it. I have lived with a man who believed them And he had Schizophrenia. Rand showed more signs of Schizophrenia from my personal exp. I am not asking about that, because that has nothing to do with your argument. When you start talking to the voice in your head Schizophrenia is what you have. Have you seen A buetiful Mind. Those are constructs. If that is what Rand had it would never go away. He could learn to deal with it.
But It would always be there.

Sodas
10-27-2009, 04:50 AM
But your argument is full of things that relate to real world disorders. So I am asking for answers based on those things is all. If you use real world disoders to explain what you see. Then there should be real world answers to explain it. I have lived with a man who believed them And he had Schizophrenia. Rand showed more signs of Schizophrenia from my personal exp. I am not asking about that, because that has nothing to do with your argument. When you start talking to the voice in your head Schizophrenia is what you have. Have you seen A buetiful Mind. Those are constructs. If that is what Rand had it would never go away. He could learn to deal with it.
But It would always be there.

Truth.

Terez
10-27-2009, 05:03 AM
But your argument is full of things that relate to real world disorders. So I am asking for answers based on those things is all.
It's related to them, but it's not going to follow the same rules. Look at it like this: are the parallel worlds quantum worlds?

There are not any real world answers to explain this because there isn't anyone on the planet with past life memories. Rand's situation is similar to MPD, PTSD, schizophrenia, etc. But it's not the same.

When you start talking to the voice in your head Schizophrenia is what you have. Have you seen A buetiful Mind. Those are constructs. If that is what Rand had it would never go away. He could learn to deal with it.
But It would always be there.
Since Rand came to accept that Lews Therin really was himself, then he was able to make the 'voice' go away. Schizophrenics don't have this luxury, because their constructs are not based on past life memories.

Terez
10-27-2009, 05:04 AM
Truth.
Are you wearing your asbestos panties? :)

the_dead
10-27-2009, 06:26 AM
But again your post only seems to confirm what I am thinking. that you are using what you want from real world to support it and not that which discounts your argument. You maybe right and I may be wrong on LTT. But I disagree with most of your argument based on what you are doing to get your point across. Alot of what RJ wrote is influnced by the real world. So are alot of the ideas to make LTT in Rands head. So we can pick at which things fit or not. I could do that all day and fill every thread doing that. But this maybe a argument that may never be won until we have a clarification from Brandon. (I so wanted to put RJ there) I so hope there are notes for this and we get answers.

Terez
10-27-2009, 06:34 AM
But again your post only seems to confirm what I am thinking. that you are using what you want from real world to support it and not that which discounts your argument.
Not exactly. I am saying that RJ uses a lot of real world stuff in his books, but it's never exact, and in this case, it can't be exact because there are no real world situations parallel to Rand.

I disagree with most of your argument based on what you are doing to get your point across.
You can disagree as much as you like - doesn't mean your arguments are sound. You have no idea what 'most of my argument' is for this theory. You've barely even scratched the tip of the iceberg on this one. ;)

It's not about picking stuff from the real world to fit a theory - it's about analyzing the evidence in the books. This book quite clearly says that they were never two different men - they have always been the same man. So therefore, Rand's perception of Lews Therin as another man was wrong. The 'real world' stuff just logically follows from that (and from other huge pieces of evidence in earlier books).

the_dead
10-27-2009, 06:49 AM
It's not about picking stuff from the real world to fit a theory - it's about analyzing the evidence in the books. This book quite clearly says that they were never two different men - they have always been the same man. So therefore, Rand's perception of Lews Therin as another man was wrong. The 'real world' stuff just logically follows from that (and from other huge pieces of evidence in earlier books).
It does not matter that there were never 2 different men. All the things you are saying do not disprove LTT being real. I need to see something that shows it. You are pointing at things that indicate madness. Which is no longer there and your poof he gets it does not explain where it went. If he was mad how is he not now. And he believes LTT is a part of his past does not fix it. As a matter of fqact realizing that would allow a mad man to continue to have those episodes. So hows is the madness that explains your point of view gone????????

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:01 AM
It does not matter that there were never 2 different men. All the things you are saying do not disprove LTT being real.
It does matter that they were never two different men. It matters quite a bit, because Rand has always assumed that they were. Obviously, he was wrong.

Your questions show that you have no clue of what I am trying to argue. That's not surprising, as you've only read a few of my posts. Read up some, and come back to argue with me when you aren't so ignorant about what I am talking about. You would, as a noob, have the right to be ignorant and ask questions if you weren't a troll, but since you're a troll, I'm done with you until you educate yourself.

the_dead
10-27-2009, 07:11 AM
I have been reading your post for over a year. I choose to post and be active on another site where you brought this argument. I am new here. I am not picking at you just questioning you. I will be more then willing to say you were right when you prove it to me. I hope you do. I like the debate. I do not want to upset you. I want to understan why it is that this is real for you and not me. I am only asking for you to be clear so that I may understand why your view maybe correct.

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:25 AM
I have been reading your post for over a year.
Interesting, since you seem to have a heavily flawed conception of where I am coming from. But in your defense, so does Isa, and she and I have been arguing this for a long time.

I choose to post and be active on another site where you brought this argument.
What, DM? iirc, Isa brought that argument there. I mentioned that she had inspired my signature, but I didn't start the argument over there.

I am new here. I am not picking at you just questioning you. I will be more then willing to say you were right when you prove it to me. I hope you do. I like the debate. I do not want to upset you. I want to understan why it is that this is real for you and not me. I am only asking for you to be clear so that I may understand why your view maybe correct.
I am going to make a post later today when I finish the book. Perhaps we can continue the debate then.

the_dead
10-27-2009, 07:40 AM
I hope your post is an eye opener. I was wrong in saying that you brought the argument to the other forum. I should have been more clear with my comment on that. And hopefully I will have time to come back and get involved. I am taking my son to disneylandon wed. I work Tue night. Will have to try and get on here after work.

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:45 AM
It's no rush - I have a feeling we'll still be arguing when you get back from Disney. :)

the_dead
10-27-2009, 08:06 AM
LOLZ you never know. I was once under the impression LTT was not real. Only in the last year or 2 did I change my mind. If I get to go to the signing in my area I am so asking Brandon on this. I am so hoping I can make it.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:08 AM
haha, make sure you ask him the right question. ;)

Isabel
10-27-2009, 09:58 AM
Yeah, ask him if LTT's voice was authentic. ;)

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:08 AM
Oh, Isa. Isa, Isa, Isa. I had to skim chapters 13-23, you know. Just for points of view, and Semirhage was what really caught my eye. Didn't pay attention to much else.

Reading chapter 15 now, and it's quite telling, which quotes you didn't bother to include. :D

I might not get my post ready today - this is even better than I thought. But I will try to get it done today. I haven't slept in three days, so I might not make it. Tomorrow at the latest, though. ;)

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:07 AM
LOL, terez, i like to keep things short, unlike you. That's why I didn't include every quote.

I do noticed more quotes to proof LTT was real.

Terez
10-27-2009, 11:09 AM
haha, you didn't include the quotes that further disproved your theory. Asbestos panties ahoy! Whitecloak blind faith spotted in the Netherlands!

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:11 AM
I didn't see any quotes that disproved my theory ;)

Terez
10-27-2009, 11:13 AM
Of course you didn't. You never have seen the evidence against it, and have never even tried to understand our arguments against it...but the evidence is conclusive this time.

*goes back to BOOK*

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:16 AM
You have never seen the point of LTT is real.

We just have a totally opposit point of view how we look at certain things. So you won't convince me. I can say exactly the same about you.

Ofcourse we won't know anything for sure, untill someone from Team Jordan says anything about this.

Terez
10-27-2009, 11:23 AM
You have never seen the point of LTT is real.
Yeah I have. I've got a post full of links and quotes to prove it. ;)

I know I won't convince you - you're a WHITECLOAK BLIND FAITH kind of girl. Everyone knows it - it's really obvious, seeing as how you say stuff like 'the one soul two personalities quote proved two souls right'. If you're wrong, instead of admitting it, you try to change what you believed to fit it. Either that, or just outright deny the evidence. I think you're doing both this time. You refuse to answer my question about whether you think Lews Therin was aware. Sentient. Conscious. But it's okay, cause I have plenty of instances of you saying it in the past.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 11:50 AM
The 'voice' is no longer there, but Rand still has the memories. Rand thinks to himself that he will never hear the voice again BECAUSE he has realized that they were not two different people, and never had been. Lews Therin has ALWAYS been a part of himself, so to say that "LTT is no longer there" is extremely inaccurate. Rand's misconception of Lews Therin is what is no longer there. ;)

Yup, I must say that us Constructors were COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY CORRECT BOOYAH!!! Take that Luckers!!!

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE=Davian93]Yup, I must say that us Constructors were COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY CORRECT BOOYAH!!! [QUOTE]
No, you were not.

*points at the discussion in this thread*

Davian93
10-27-2009, 11:55 AM
[QUOTE=Davian93]Yup, I must say that us Constructors were COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY CORRECT BOOYAH!!! [QUOTE]
No, you were not.

*points at the discussion in this thread*

Terez and Callandor are completely correct. The voice was a construct based on memories.


EDIT: I have no idea now. I just reread the last couple chapters and am perplexed. I would say that both sides are wrong on certain points...how's that for covering one's arse.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 12:17 PM
No, they were not correct. They were saying the voice wasn't authentic. And the voice was authentic....

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:22 PM
No, they were not correct. They were saying the voice wasn't authentic. And the voice was authentic....

I believe that is correct. I think there is a bit of complexity in the truth of the matter but the realists may indeed be more correct. IE Rand is Lews is Lews is Rand and there is not construct as they are simply one person. Rand can't construct himself. It is all part of the same whole.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 12:26 PM
*hugs Davian*

I think this will become an interesting discussion :)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:28 PM
*hugs Davian*

I think this will become an interesting discussion :)

There is no Rand or Lews, simply The Dragon.

Neilbert
10-27-2009, 01:02 PM
No, they were not correct. They were saying the voice wasn't authentic. And the voice was authentic....

Define authentic please.

You (and others) keep throwing out these terms. I, for one, can't respond to what you are writing without knowing what you mean by them.

greatwolf
10-27-2009, 01:21 PM
There is no Rand or Lews, simply The Dragon

Or the Dragon Reborn. :p

"Runaway soldier.."

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:26 PM
Or the Dragon Reborn. :p

"Runaway soldier.."

The Dragon is the Dragon. He merely alternates between between TAR and Randland.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 01:58 PM
Define authentic please.

You (and others) keep throwing out these terms. I, for one, can't respond to what you are writing without knowing what you mean by them.

Authentic: is how Lews Therin responded in the Age of Legends. The same personality he had in the Age of Legends, is according to realers also the same as the voice.

Sodas
10-27-2009, 04:11 PM
The dead,

You nailed it. The construct theory states that the construct is a unconcious or subconcious rejection of Rand's emotions.
When Rand makes a concious acceptance of LTT, that doesn't mean it stops his unconcious or subconcious from continuing to do what it's doing.

AbbeyRoad
10-27-2009, 05:07 PM
No, they were not correct. They were saying the voice wasn't authentic. And the voice was authentic....
Your misunderstanding here is your use of the word "authentic". You don't know what that means in application to this theory. The LTT in Rand's head may or may not have been the same personality as the LTT from the Age of Legends. If Rand had all of LTT's memories, he might indeed be a very similar personality. That is irrelevant. Both sides argue that LTT is authentic in that he is indeed a voice, and does indeed have input from the Age of Legends. But how does arguing that he is authentic prove that he isn't an authentic construct?

Authentic:
1. of undisputed origin or authorship; genuine.
2. accurate in representation of the facts; reliable.

Your use of the word "authentic" is incorrect. How is LTT's voice "of undisputed origin"? How did it get there? Why is it there? There is no "undisputed origin" for these questions. The constructs have very detailed and factual answers for these questions, the realists don't. So maybe LTT as a construct is more "authentic" than being somehow magically transported from the Age of Legends.

EDIT: And regardless of how they got there, how does that make the 'real' LTT any more authentic than the constructed LTT? Isabel, I understand where you are coming from, but I haven't really seen you use any factual evidence from the book to support your claims, but you continually assert that LTT is "authentic". Obviously, he isn't by definition, if the origin and/or authorship for LTT is still being debated.

Rand can't construct himself. It is all part of the same whole.
Negative, ghost rider. Rand didn't "construct himself". He constructed Lews Therin's personality from his memories. Lews Therin is therefore a part of him; a personality reflecting his inability to cope with the idea that his last incarnation went mad and killed his family (among other things). When LTT is integrated, Rand realizes that he was a part of Rand's subconscious all along, created by Rand's memories of the real LTT. So of course LTT was a part of Rand, but he was definitely constructed. Those aren't mutually exclusive terms.

When you start talking to the voice in your head Schizophrenia is what you have. Have you seen A buetiful Mind. Those are constructs. If that is what Rand had it would never go away. He could learn to deal with it.
But It would always be there.

The "A Beautiful Mind" parallel doesn't fit. Rand doesn't have schizophrenia. And Russel Crowe's character in the movie's basis for his constructs is more biological than emotional; schizophrenia develops primarily from genetics and neurobiological factors, with emotional triggers, not the other way around. Rand's basis for constructing LTT is emotionally and magically (from the memories) founded. So the parallel there is way off.

You nailed it. The construct theory states that the construct is a unconcious or subconcious rejection of Rand's emotions.
When Rand makes a concious acceptance of LTT, that doesn't mean it stops his unconcious or subconcious from continuing to do what it's doing.
Yes it does. There is no real world parallel to a reincarnated soul who develops a persona to deal with mystical memories of his past life. However, when people with DID integrate personalities, those personalities form one sentience, and they no longer have two (or more) 'personalities' in their mind. Their alter egos were 'constructed'; they weren't born with them, and they didn't exist in another time period. Sometimes they are even aware of each other. But when they are integrated, they cease to exist independently. Granted, the real world parallels don't really fit perfectly here, but what Rand did is very similar.

And when Rand realized that LTT was really him all along, of course the voice went away. He still has an unconscious and a subconscious mind just like everyone else; but he simply no longer attributes the memories he received via being the Dragon to some mythical personality in his head. He realizes they were just memories. So while Rand still suppresses emotions, he no longer attributes those emotions to LTT specifically. And that's why the voice is gone.

Terez
10-27-2009, 05:12 PM
This is all moot now guys. The real'er theory is debunked.

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 05:14 PM
How did it get there? Why is it there? The constructs have answers for these questions, the realists don't.
It gor there the same way as the memories, how is that so hard to understand? Why make things more complicated than they are?

Terez
10-27-2009, 05:31 PM
Abbey, I think you are making it a little more complicated than it needs to be. The theory is debunked, and the means by which it is debunked are quite simple.

AbbeyRoad
10-27-2009, 05:31 PM
I understand that, but it still doesn't mean LTT is authentic. His origins are debatable. We are debating them now. Therefore, by definition, there is no way to say whether or not he is an "authentic" personality.

Terez
10-27-2009, 05:34 PM
His origins have little to do with his 'authenticity'.

The authenticity of Lews Therin's memories were never under debate. Only the idea that Rand and Lews Therin were separate was under debate.

But as I said, it's all moot now. Rand clearly admits that he was wrong in assuming that Lews Therin was another man.

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 05:38 PM
The theory is debunked, and the means by which it is debunked are quite simple.
Uh... point me?

AbbeyRoad
10-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Agree, but Isabel seems to be focused on arguing that somehow the realist version of LTT is authentic, whereas the construct version is somehow not authentic. I was just trying to show her, literally, that she was using the wrong word, and she is missing the point. Obviously his memories are authentic. But the LTT personality himself is an authentic personality, or not, in both arguments, depending on how you look at it and what definition of authentic you use.

Meaning,

1. provide more facts please to support your argument,

and

2. Yeah, ask him if LTT's voice was authentic.
is completely the wrong question.

Terez
10-27-2009, 06:31 PM
Uh... point me?
Real'er theory debunked. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2446)

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm sure I'll do this in the other thread too, but I figured since Isa was complaining about people not addressing her points, I would. ;)

At this time she had no reason to lie. It actually causes Rand more stress by saying this.
So these two things are facts. This is what has happened in the past.
Simply because Semirhage says something, and you do not see any immediate benefit to her lying, does not mean that these things are irrefutable facts.

If the voice of LTT isn’t part of the LTT personality and is a construct, why would it disappear in TAR while Rand is dreaming? He constructed the voice himself, so it should be there. The voice would have had nothing to do with the LTT personality from the past.
If what you're proposing is correct, LTT should be entirely absent from Rand in this sequence. However, only the voice is absent - Rand still has LTT's memories, and makes use of them more than once during the conversation, even acknowledging their presence. If you are arguing that LTT is real, the onus is on you to explain why the voice should disappear but the memories should remain.

He realizes that Lews Therin’s voice was him in the past. They were not two men. Lews Therin was him in the past. Rand is basicly LTT.
Notice that Rand says ‘Lews Therin’s voice’ and not the voice. He says Lews Therin’s voice. He has seen all his lives, but still he realizes it was the real voice of his past incarnation.

You argue that Rand is LTT, but then you argue that LTT is a separate being in Rand's head. I cannot fathom any way to view this as anything else than a self-contradiction.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:42 PM
I'm sure I'll do this in the other thread too, but I figured since Isa was complaining about people not addressing her points, I would. ;)
haha, I'm glad someone doesn't mind doing it. I think I have really had enough over the last few years...but yay, it's debunked now!

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:44 PM
but yay, it's debunked now!
One word.

Taimandred.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:46 PM
That word isn't even necessary. 'Two souls' works quite well for Isa. She said that RJ's quote about 'one soul, two personalities' proved the two soulers were right all along. Why? Because was they really meant was that Lews Therin was real, and 'two personalities' proved that (nevermind that most of the one soulers were also real'ers, notably Frenzy, the faction champion). But now 'Lews Therin is real' has been debunked as well. :D

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:47 PM
You misunderstand me. I'm pointing out how the word "debunked" is overly optimistic.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:49 PM
I don't misunderstand you at all. Because 'two souls' was most definitely debunked, but Isa most definitely did not accept it. Taimandred has also been debunked, even though some people still don't accept it.

Sodas
10-27-2009, 10:01 PM
If what you're proposing is correct, LTT should be entirely absent from Rand in this sequence. However, only the voice is absent - Rand still has LTT's memories, and makes use of them more than once during the conversation, even acknowledging their presence. If you are arguing that LTT is real, the onus is on you to explain why the voice should disappear but the memories should remain.

Actually, he has all prior incarnations memories. Not just LTT's.



You argue that Rand is LTT, but then you argue that LTT is a separate being in Rand's head. I cannot fathom any way to view this as anything else than a self-contradiction.

Rand is LTT and all the incarnations before him in the sense that they all are the same soul.

But Rand is not the same personality as LTT. Nor is he the same personality as any Dragon that has come before.

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:03 PM
You guys can't wiggle your way out of this on semantics - the real'er theory is debunked.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 10:12 PM
Actually, he has all prior incarnations memories. Not just LTT's.Not in the scene I was discussing. I was solely referring to the Rand/Moridin meet-up in TAR.

Rand is LTT and all the incarnations before him in the sense that they all are the same soul.

But Rand is not the same personality as LTT. Nor is he the same personality as any Dragon that has come before.
I am familiar with that argument. But if that's the one Isa is advocating, she is not very good at enunciating it.

You guys can't wiggle your way out of this on semantics - the real'er theory is debunked.As I've mentioned before, repeating that doesn't actually succeed in convincing anyone.

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:27 PM
lol, I know. Just making sure it's not forgotten. ;)

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 12:08 AM
NVM

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:49 AM
Neilbert: Lews Therin ofcourse dead in the age of legends.
However, he is back into Rands'head. That means he gets to experience things he same as Rand, but he reacts like LTT would react.

Terez: the theory isn't debunked. This book absolutely proofed that the voice was authentic.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 01:03 AM
Terez: the theory isn't debunked. This book absolutely proofed that the voice was authentic.
If that was true, then this argument wouldn't be continuing, now would it? ;)

I think there is clearly evidence for one side to be correct (and I happen to think that side is mine). But I also happen to believe that you're both wrong if you think anything has been proven.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 01:14 AM
Terez; you stil lhaven't responded to my argument.

You only made up, that I define real as seperate people.. And that's a lie.

Sodas
10-28-2009, 03:05 AM
but Isabel seems to be focused on arguing that somehow the realist version of LTT is authentic, whereas the construct version is somehow not authentic. I was just trying to show her, literally, that she was using the wrong word, and she is missing the point

No. This is a better definition of what we mean.

Authentic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authentic

1. not false or copied; genuine; real: an authentic antique.

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.



LTT is not false or copied, is genuine, and real. Obviously, any construct can't fit these terms because a construct LTT is false.

Sodas
10-28-2009, 03:29 AM
It just seems to me that the Construct explanation is that Rand made a concious choice to eliminate a subconcious reaction because his realization was that it was him talking to himself the whole time. That makes zero sense.

Besides, that's not the revelation that Rand had. Love and forgiveness was the realization. For Rand and for LTT.

LTT finally realized that Ilyena would be reborn, and he had another chance to live another life with her because of the graciousness and forgiveness of the Wheel. He never really had the time to cope with the death of Ilyena before. Finally he could step back, view his entire history of his soul and realize that Ilyena would be reborn too. Now LTT could be at peace.

That is why Rand is so sure he will never hear the voice again. It's beautifully poetic.



However, when people with DID integrate personalities, those personalities form one sentience, and they no longer have two (or more) 'personalities' in their mind.

If. Most DID never reintegrate personalities. More often than not the strategy is treat the symptoms, not try to reintegrate the person. Not to mention, this really doesn't even fit (DID) because those personalities that are integrated are not active at the same time. DID more readily fits Slayer, because in DID cases only one personality is active at any given time.

Most importantly of all, recovery isn't an instantaneous thing. It's only after prolonged treatment.

the_dead
10-28-2009, 05:54 AM
I would be let down if LTT was a form of madness and just poof it is gone. What kind of ending is that to madness????

Terez
10-28-2009, 09:00 AM
Terez; you stil lhaven't responded to my argument.

You only made up, that I define real as seperate people.. And that's a lie.
Quotes and links in the other thread. You have always believed they were separate people, and that is the only thing we have ever really argued about.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 11:39 AM
See my other post: you have always interpreted it differently and tried to sheer it away from being real.
I wasn't interested in that, and so haven't followed the discussion for a long time.

As I said before: the faction creeds say it all. That's the essence of things you believe.

Sarevok
10-28-2009, 12:10 PM
We need Gonzo to finish the books...

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:11 PM
Sare: gonzo couldn't find it yet:P

Terez
10-28-2009, 12:48 PM
See my other post: you have always interpreted it differently and tried to sheer it away from being real.
All I ever said about 'real' is that it didn't mean anything. We had to discuss it to figure out what you meant by 'real', and as we discussed it, we discovered that it meant that you believed Lews Therin had his own awareness, and that he and Rand were separate. That has been proven wrong.

I wasn't interested in that, and so haven't followed the discussion for a long time.
You were interested in it - you repeated over and over again that you thought they were separate. No one EVER disagreed with you about the memories being real. That was never a point of debate.

As I said before: the faction creeds say it all. That's the essence of things you believe.
The faction says that the 'voice' was the real Lews Therin. That has been disproved. Rand had the real memories, but the 'voice' was an illusion - they were not two men, and never had been.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Aagggh...

You really don't understand a word from what I am saying, are you?
I have tried again and again to say what real means, but you just ignore that and want to discuss other things.
And again you say memories being real, and i said voice was the real LTT.

And again you claim that something is proven, while it's still being debated....

Davian93
10-28-2009, 12:58 PM
Can we at least confine this debate to one specific thread?

There is a ton of other stuff to discuss in the new book.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 04:10 PM
It just seems to me that the Construct explanation is that Rand made a concious choice to eliminate a subconcious reaction because his realization was that it was him talking to himself the whole time. That makes zero sense.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, it does make zero sense and it's not even remotely what I'm arguing. :D

Can we at least confine this debate to one specific thread?

There is a ton of other stuff to discuss in the new book.
This. A thousand times this.

The Black Wind
10-28-2009, 04:40 PM
I figured that since they were fully integrated this conversation would become irrelevant. I always thought the main point of a LTT is real argument was that if he was real then he could die at TG instead of Rand. They integrated so that no longer seems possible.

However, If people are determined to debate for the sake of debating here is a quick point that I haven't seen mentioned.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered loves, hundreds of them, thousands of them, streching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

It appears from this quote that Rand remembers all of his past lives, not just LTT. So why would LTT be the only "real" voice in his head? Wouldn't he have hundreds of them?

This makes me believe that Rand constructed a personality to deal with all these memories until he could accept them as his own. He named that personality LTT because those memories were the most prominent. The same way Brigette remembers her recent lives more clearly than the ancient ones.

I'm sure there are other interpretations though.

Terez
10-28-2009, 06:16 PM
I figured that since they were fully integrated this conversation would become irrelevant. I always thought the main point of a LTT is real argument was that if he was real then he could die at TG instead of Rand. They integrated so that no longer seems possible.
The 'point' of the debate is more along the lines of how Lews Therin passages should be interpreted, like I said on the non-spoiler thread on General. For instance, one of the early examples is when it appears as though Lews Therin tries to take over Rand's body in Tel'aran'rhiod, while they're fighting Rahvin. Real'ers see that as Lews Therin taking over (or, they did - hopefully at least some of them see it differently now). Constructors see it as, Rand noticed his body was fading, so he tapped Lews Therin's memories of Tel'aran'rhiod to fight it, and subconsciously used Lews Therin's physical features to do it (and, consequently, Rand learned a bit about how to control Tel'aran'rhiod, as we see right after). Then he made the incorrect assumption that Lews Therin was trying to take over.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 06:37 PM
It's also important as a characterization into Rand. If LTT was real, Rand is a lot more sane and 'normal', for lack of a better word. If LTT is a construct, it explains better Rand's insanity, why he is so hard, and some of the statements attributed to LTT can be attributed to Rand (like when he rages about killing Taim, for instance). Additionally, it can also help explain why Rand seems so blind to Taim's dreadlordly infiltration of the Black Tower, etc. If you reread the series with this mind-set, many scenes are read very differently.

The Black Wind
10-28-2009, 06:41 PM
Any comments on the fact that Rand apparently has memories from a thousand live now, not just LTT's? Am I misinterpreting this passage? If so why? If not, how will this affect Rand in the next two books?

Davian93
10-28-2009, 06:43 PM
Any comments on the fact that Rand apparently has memories from a thousand live now, not just LTT's? Am I misinterpreting this passage? If so why? If not, how will this affect Rand in the next two books?

I referenced that passage in another thread. I don't think you are wrong as that's how I read it too.