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Tamyrlin
10-26-2009, 07:41 AM
After all of these years...598...damn 605...bummer, a few things still don't make sense, but they do I guess.

Terez
10-26-2009, 07:43 AM
Wat? Is that a page number?

Isabel
10-26-2009, 08:08 AM
After all of these years...598...damn 605...bummer, a few things still don't make sense, but they do I guess.

Aha, so you are reading the book ;)) So how do you like it so far? I guess you got the book from someone? Or are you reading it in the store?
598: I think RJ really hid this well :) 605 ;) Well at least RJ left notes to include it in the book.

Now I am really curious about Thom. If there will be a conclusion for that in the next books. I noticed Egwene not reading the Darkfriends names yet :P

Tamyrlin
10-26-2009, 12:14 PM
But, after reading it, I feel a bit of redemption for some of my pet theories.

jana
10-27-2009, 12:35 AM
I had goosebumps for about 5 minutes

Terez
10-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Funny conversation from another forum:

By the way... I'm going to stake claim to the theory that X was actually not killed by Z, and that when Y used A on Z, it was all part of the plan to drive Z into killing X. It was the Shadow at work! All a big secret plan...
I had to rush through that part because the store I was reading in closed (it was awesome, and has made me spastic the last few days cause I couldn't read any more). But that is exactly the impression I got from skimming through that scene (I think I posted saying as much at both DM and Malazan). Except the bit about X, because I didn't quite make it that far. From what I understand, your theory on X seems highly unlikely on the surface, but it's still theoretically quite possible.

One different impression I got is that it had more to do with Y using B on W than Y using A on Z, though. And Z using C on Y was part of the plan as well, obviously.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 11:53 AM
I was surprised (pleasantly) by just how many things we here on TL correctly predicted. We did a much much better job than the uncreative DM folks who couldn't see beyond the obvious.

I wont go down the list (that is quite extensive) but several of our theories were proven correct.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:12 PM
After all of these years...598...damn 605...bummer, a few things still don't make sense, but they do I guess.
I love how someone was both exactly right and exactly wrong simultaneously. :D

Davian93
10-27-2009, 08:23 PM
I love how someone was both exactly right and exactly wrong simultaneously. :D

This book was full of Red Herrings. There was the Verin revelation (One of those "NO WAY, EGWENE'S GONNA BUY THE FARM" moments followed by a "THANK GOD, I KNEW IT!!!" moments. The Laras thing really threw me, I figured it was a huge trap for Egwene where Laras would turn out to be Mesaana or something like that...instead we find out "Laras may be many things, but she is not a Darkfriend" statements.

Its almost like RJ and BS went out of their way to toss us a few bones on prominent theories we've all been debating about.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:37 PM
The Laras thing really threw me, I figured it was a huge trap for Egwene where Laras would turn out to be Mesaana or something like that...instead we find out "Laras may be many things, but she is not a Darkfriend" statements.
I would get a kick out of it if I turned out to be right all along about Laras being Mesaana. :D

Davian93
10-27-2009, 08:44 PM
I would get a kick out of it if I turned out to be right all along about Laras being Mesaana. :D

It was my first thought when Laras offered the escape...Either Laras IS Mesaana or Laras is working for her. It would have made sense as Laras helped Chaos before when she helped Min & Co escape and helping Egwene escape would have had the same effect. Turns out it was unfounded but it was still cool for about 5 min.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:46 PM
It was my first thought when Laras offered the escape...Either Laras IS Mesaana or Laras is working for her. It would have made sense as Laras helped Chaos before when she helped Min & Co escape and helping Egwene escape would have had the same effect. Turns out it was unfounded but it was still cool for about 5 min.
I'm still inclined to think this is evidence for Mesaana not posing as a channeler in the Tower. I'm not really wedded to Laras (though that would be some sweet vindication!), but the elimination of pretty much all non-captured AS as suspects is pretty ominous.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 08:48 PM
I'm still inclined to think this is evidence for Mesaana not posing as a channeler in the Tower. I'm not really wedded to Laras (though that would be some sweet vindication!), but the elimination of pretty much all non-captured AS as suspects is pretty ominous.

Its definitely not a good sign. Its pretty clear that Mesaana is hiding her ability to channel but is still a regular in the Tower (Alviarin's almost recognition of her face).

Unless, of course, she is that Sitter that Egwene keeps thinking about who wasn't on Verin's list but MUST be Black Ajah since she fled...that could always be her too.

EDIT: Evanellein, of the Gray Ajah, who vanished earlier in the day of Egwene's coronation as Amyrlin.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Evanellein was always a top suspect for being Black.

Also, Alviarin was a HUGE red herring, in my defense. I predicted the Great Purge correctly, and Alviarin had a big ol target painted on her forehead due to her knowing all the names, and also the big deal over the letter she wrote to Rand. But Verin came out of nowhere to steal her thunder!

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:02 PM
Evanellein was always a top suspect for being Black.

Also, Alviarin was a HUGE red herring, in my defense. I predicted the Great Purge correctly, and Alviarin had a big ol target painted on her forehead due to her knowing all the names, and also the big deal over the letter she wrote to Rand. But Verin came out of nowhere to steal her thunder!

Verin was completely obvious in hindsight. It was so freaking obvious what her 70 year plan was now...I can't believe none of us guessed its extent...though Tam was dead on in his prediction.

I noticed that Taint Degradation was confirmed as well, which was nice to see.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:05 PM
It wasn't confirmed - Rand just assumed that. So far as we know, he didn't have any real reason to believe it, other than the same reasons some of us believe it (far from conclusive).

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:07 PM
It wasn't confirmed - Rand just assumed that. So far as we know, he didn't have any real reason to believe it, other than the same reasons some of us believe it (far from conclusive).

Well, Rand (with the LTT memories) seems like a pretty good bet. I would say its far more confirmed now than it was before. I mean, we and Rand independently came up with the same theory.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:08 PM
It has more evidence for it, that's true. But, unlike the construct theory, not confirmed. ;)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:10 PM
It has more evidence for it, that's true. But, unlike the construct theory, not confirmed. ;)

It read to me as if the author was giving us one considering how many times its been RAFOed.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:12 PM
Well. Notice that in the same passage, Rand 'confirms' that Min's touch/merge viewing was about him and Lews Therin, lol! Not that he hasn't said that before, but it's not a good context to throw a bone in!

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Well. Notice that in the same passage, Rand 'confirms' that Min's touch/merge viewing was about him and Lews Therin, lol! Not that he hasn't said that before, but it's not a good context to throw a bone in!

Shhhh....don't ruin this for me.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:13 PM
haha, I'm ruining things for lots of people today. :D

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:15 PM
haha, I'm ruining things for lots of people today. :D

Well, Taint Degradation didn't exactly get hurt by this book. I would say its a very strong possibility.

bowlwoman
10-28-2009, 12:38 PM
Its definitely not a good sign. Its pretty clear that Mesaana is hiding her ability to channel but is still a regular in the Tower (Alviarin's almost recognition of her face).

So, is the "Danelle is Mesaana" theory still a possibility? Danelle wasn't mentioned anywhere as being a BA suspect, but then again, we didn't get all the names either.

Terez
10-28-2009, 01:02 PM
Well, Taint Degradation didn't exactly get hurt by this book. I would say its a very strong possibility.
Yeah, you could say that Rand's statement means there is more evidence for it than there was before. Part of the strength of the arguments of those who disagreed with the taint theory is that it was all assumption (based on logic, of course, but not on any real evidence). Now we have Rand's assumption to support it as well.

I've never really been a big believer in taint barrier degradation - it just seemed to me a better explanation than 'the Wheel did it'.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 01:53 PM
Yeah, you could say that Rand's statement means there is more evidence for it than there was before. Part of the strength of the arguments of those who disagreed with the taint theory is that it was all assumption (based on logic, of course, but not on any real evidence). Now we have Rand's assumption to support it as well.

I've never really been a big believer in taint barrier degradation - it just seemed to me a better explanation than 'the Wheel did it'.

The folks at DM told me it was too much of a Deus Ex Machina. However, it makes a ton of sense.

Terez
10-28-2009, 02:42 PM
What, that the Wheel did it? Or barrier degradation? The Wheel is more deus ex machina than barrier degradation, IMO. The Wheel is technically responsible for everything that happens. Except maybe some things Fain does....

Davian93
10-28-2009, 02:46 PM
What, that the Wheel did it? Or barrier degradation? The Wheel is more deus ex machina than barrier degradation, IMO. The Wheel is technically responsible for everything that happens. Except maybe some things Fain does....

The Taint Degradation.

Terez
10-28-2009, 02:53 PM
How is that deus ex machina?

Davian93
10-28-2009, 03:16 PM
How is that deus ex machina?

~shrugs~

No Idea.

ShadowbaneX
10-28-2009, 11:04 PM
it's possible that any of the Aes Sedai that reswore the Oaths could be Mesaana, depending on how they replied. Mesaana is one of the Forsaken. She could easily have said that she wasn't Black Ajah or that she wasn't a Darkfriend and it'd be true, because she ranks well and truely above the lot of them, much like Semirhage considered herself a creature of legend and terror and not just a female channeler on the side of the Shadow.

WinespringBrother
10-28-2009, 11:28 PM
it's possible that any of the Aes Sedai that reswore the Oaths could be Mesaana, depending on how they replied. Mesaana is one of the Forsaken. She could easily have said that she wasn't Black Ajah or that she wasn't a Darkfriend and it'd be true, because she ranks well and truely above the lot of them, much like Semirhage considered herself a creature of legend and terror and not just a female channeler on the side of the Shadow.

I was thinking that as well, SBX, or maybe she had a foxhead ter' to protect her, though I wonder if it would.

The Black Wind
10-28-2009, 11:38 PM
What's the point of her staying in the tower now that all her agents have been ousted? I doubt she'll be as effective in sowing chaos without the BA.

ShadowbaneX
10-29-2009, 12:11 AM
she can still cause problems being one of the forsaken. It'll be hard, but it'd still be very valuable to have someone inside the Tower.

Marie Curie 7
10-30-2009, 03:05 PM
I'm still inclined to think this is evidence for Mesaana not posing as a channeler in the Tower. I'm not really wedded to Laras (though that would be some sweet vindication!), but the elimination of pretty much all non-captured AS as suspects is pretty ominous.

Except that from Graendal's thoughts in the Prologue, Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai.

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means

That man frustrated her, though she would never admit it out loud. Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities. And, of course, Graendal's own newly minted association with Aran'gar was helpful as well. Aran'gar was playing with the rebel Aes Sedai, the ones who were besieging the White Tower.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:45 PM
Except that from Graendal's thoughts in the Prologue, Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai.
She also thinks Demandred must be controlling a nation. I think her conclusions aren't as rock-solid as she believes they are. ;)

Marie Curie 7
10-31-2009, 09:13 PM
She also thinks Demandred must be controlling a nation. I think her conclusions aren't as rock-solid as she believes they are. ;)

Perhaps, but it seems to me that there's a rather big difference between Graendal's conclusions about Mesaana and those about Demandred. Graendal had agents watching Mesaana in the Tower, and in addition, she had knowledge about Mesaana's activities from Aran'gar. On the other hand, she had no knowledge about Demandred's activities because she and/or her agents were unable to discover his whereabouts, so her conclusions about him were just speculation and were stated as such - after Demandred claimed (in the Prologue) that his rule was secure and he was gathering for war, Graendal's thoughts were that he was apparently controlling a nation.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 01:12 AM
I guess the difference is, I have no problem thinking that Graendal is capable of keeping track of Mesaana's "obvious" activities without necessarily knowing who, exactly, she's disguised as. After all, Mesaana is cautious enough that she never shows her undisguised face to any of her minions - but she has enough disguised face-to-face discussions, that it would be pretty easy to keep track of those interactions regardless.

In short, Mesaana's managed to keep her identity secret even from the people with whom she's working directly. I don't really have enough faith in anyone who might be working for Graendal that they're that much smarter. ;)

Marie Curie 7
11-01-2009, 01:53 PM
I guess the difference is, I have no problem thinking that Graendal is capable of keeping track of Mesaana's "obvious" activities without necessarily knowing who, exactly, she's disguised as. After all, Mesaana is cautious enough that she never shows her undisguised face to any of her minions - but she has enough disguised face-to-face discussions, that it would be pretty easy to keep track of those interactions regardless.

In short, Mesaana's managed to keep her identity secret even from the people with whom she's working directly. I don't really have enough faith in anyone who might be working for Graendal that they're that much smarter. ;)

~shrug~ Graendal doesn't say that she got the information about who Mesaana is posing as from her spies, only that her spies are keeping track of what Mesaana is doing. Graendal's thoughts simply note that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai in the Tower. Maybe Graendal is wrong about that, as you seem to imply, but how do you know that Mesaana didn't directly reveal to Graendal or Aran'gar that she was posing as Aes Sedai without giving the specific name of her alias? We don't know how Graendal got her information about Mesaana's identity.

And of course there are other small clues that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai - for example, when her disguise is partially unmasked by Shaidar Haran in front of Alviarin. Perhaps this glimpse was given to mislead us, perhaps not. To me it still seems that it would be difficult for a non-channeler like Laras, or even an Accepted or novice, to have the freedom of movement that Mesaana would probably need.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 03:11 PM
To me it still seems that it would be difficult for a non-channeler like Laras, or even an Accepted or novice, to have the freedom of movement that Mesaana would probably need.

Ah, but after Elaida became the Amyrlin and until very recently, there was very little freedom of movement by Aes Sedai.

Novices and Accepted, on the other hand.... that's why Egwene was able to manipulate the Sitters -- because she could go where no Aes Sedai could.

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 03:16 PM
Ah, but after Elaida became the Amyrlin and until very recently, there was very little freedom of movement by Aes Sedai.

Novices and Accepted, on the other hand.... that's why Egwene was able to manipulate the Sitters -- because she could go where no Aes Sedai could.

Would Mesaana's ego be able to handle being a Novice or Accepted to these clearly subpar, so-called Aes Sedai? Even if it afforded her more ambiguity and freedom, I don't think she would be able to tolerate taking lessons from her inferiors. She was a teacher before the Bore. Being a student to these so-called Aes Sedai seems out of character. However, perhaps I am underestimating Mesaana. Always a possibility. :)

Marie Curie 7
11-01-2009, 04:50 PM
Ah, but after Elaida became the Amyrlin and until very recently, there was very little freedom of movement by Aes Sedai.

Novices and Accepted, on the other hand.... that's why Egwene was able to manipulate the Sitters -- because she could go where no Aes Sedai could.

There was little freedom of movement among Aes Sedai from one Ajah to another, true, but my point had to do more with the fact that novices and Accepted are required to take lessons, Accepted are required to teach novice classes, novices are required to scrub floors and do other chores, etc. Their time and movements are restricted around the Tower by the tasks that they are required to perform. Similarly, clerks, housekeepers, and other non-channelers would be restricted in where they could be in the Tower and when they could be there. Egwene was able to work around her restrictions to some degree, of course, because of her scheduled lessons with sisters, and more importantly in TGS because specific sisters started requesting to give Egwene lessons, but this wouldn't necessarily be the case for any novice or Accepted. However, you're right that we shouldn't totally discount the possibility (even though I think Graendal's statement that Mesaana was posing as Aes Sedai is probably correct).

However, another strike against Mesaana being a novice or Accepted in the Tower is that RJ said that we have already seen Mesaana's alias in the Tower and that we should have been able to figure it out before Crossroads of Twilight:

Bailey's Crossroads VA 2005 - Robert Mee Reporting

Q: Have we actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the White Tower?
RJ: Yes.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

Tallis: RJ said there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before Crossroads of Twilight. He basically said that he'd full-out reveal her in upcoming books, though: '...and if you still don't know, well, you'll find out later.'

Thus, if Mesaana were posing as an Accepted or novice we would have seen her alias on-screen by Crossroads of Twilight. Using the listings in Encyclopaedia WoT, it seems that there are very very few novices and Accepted mentioned by name, and thus the likelihood that Mesaana is posing as a novice or Accepted is pretty slim.

There are some novices mentioned by name that are among the Salidar rebels, but there are actually no Tower novices mentioned by name prior to Knife of Dreams, except for Else Grinwell and the main characters when they were novices (Egwene, Elayne, etc.). There are some novices mentioned in KoD, in conjunction with Egwene's novice classes and such (Alvistere, Ashelin, Coride, Marah, and Namene), so these names can be ruled out as Mesaana suspects.

With respect to Accepted in the Tower, there are only a few possibilities. Some Accepted in the Tower are mentioned only in KoD and so can be ruled out (Anemara, Asseil, and Mair). There are some Accepted mentioned among the rebels, and I would assume they can be ruled out, too (Calindin, Emara, Ronelle, and Shimoku). That leaves the following:

Irella (mentioned in TGH Ch. 38, 39)
Pedra (mentioned in TGH Ch. 24, CoT Ch. 22, and KoD Ch. 24)

That's it, as far as I can tell. And there is little enough mentioned about either of those two that I find it hard to believe that even RJ would say that we should be able to figure out that Mesaana has been posing as one of them. But here are the specific quotes about the two (I've included the post-CoT quote about Pedra for completeness):

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 38 - Practice

"I wouldn't bother her." Min leaned toward the two of them and lowered her voice. "That skinny Accepted Irella told her she was as clumsy as a cow and had half the Talents, and Nynaeve clouted her ear." Elayne winced. "Exactly," Min murmured. "They had her up to Sheriam's study before you could blink, and she hasn't been fit to live with since."

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 39 - Flight from the White Tower

Egwene whipped her eyes forward. An Aes Sedai with long, smooth black hair and aged-ivory skin was coming toward them down the corridor, listening to a woman wearing rough farm clothes and a patched cloak. The Aes Sedai had not seen them yet, but Egwene recognized her; Takima, of the Brown Ajah, who taught the history of the White Tower and Aes Sedai, and who could recognize one of her pupils at a hundred paces.

Nynaeve turned down a side hall without breaking stride, but there one of the Accepted, a lanky woman with a permanent frown, hurried past them hauling a red-faced novice by the ear.

Egwene had to swallow before she could speak. "That was Irella, and Else. Did they notice us?" She could not make herself look back to see.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 24 - New Friends and Old Enemies

"In here," the Accepted said curtly, gesturing to a door. Named Pedra, she was a short, wiry woman, a little older than Nynaeve, and with a briskness always in her voice. "You're given this time because it is your first day, but I'll expect you in the scullery when the gong sounds High, and not one moment later."

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 22 - One Answer

Pevara waited with a touch of impatience while the slim little Accepted placed the rimmed silver tray on a side table and uncovered the dish of cakes. A short woman with a serious face, Pedra was not being laggard, or resentful over having to spend the morning fetching and carrying for a Sitter, just precise and careful. Those were useful qualities, to be encouraged. Still, when the Accepted asked whether she should pour the wine, Pevara said crisply, "We will do for ourselves, child. You may wait in the anteroom." She almost told the young woman to go back to her studies.

Pedra spread her banded white skirts in a graceful curtsy without any sign of being flustered the way Accepted often were when a Sitter showed snappishness. All too frequently, Accepted took any bite in a Sitter's tone as an opinion on their fitness for the shawl, as if Sitters had no other concerns.

Pevara waited until the door closed behind Pedra and the latch clicked before nodding approvingly. "That one will be raised Aes Sedai soon," she said. It was satisfying when any woman attained the shawl, but especially when the woman had appeared unpromising to begin with. Small pleasures seemed the only ones available, these days.

"Not one of ours, though, I think," was the reply from her surprising guest, who turned from a study of the row of painted miniatures of Pevara's dead family that stood in a line on the wave-carved marble mantel above the fireplace. "She's uncertain about men. I believe they make her nervous."

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 24 - Honey in the Tea

"But she walked into a wall!" Coride wailed, raising her head. Her face was red and blotchy, and her cheeks glistened damply. "A wall! And then none of us could find the classroom, and Pedra couldn't either, and she got cross with us. Pedra never gets cross. She was frightened, too!"

"I'll wager Pedra didn't start crying, though." Egwene sat down on the edge of the girl's bed, and was pleased that she did not wince. Novice mattresses were not noted for softness. "The dead can't harm the living, Coride. They can't touch us. They don't even seem to see us. Besides, they were initiates of the Tower or else servants here. This was their home as much as it is ours. And as for rooms or hallways not being where they're supposed to be, just remember that the Tower is a place of wonders. Remember that, and they won't frighten you."

Any of those seem like Mesaana to you? Perhaps it's suspicious that Irella is seen dragging Else Grinwell in TGH... Other than that, I suppose if Mesaana were Nynaeve's teacher, she probably would have said she didn't have any talents... :)

Ivhon
11-01-2009, 05:04 PM
I would think that the biggest argument against novice/accepted is that Mesaana would have to be channeling an awful lot to get out of chores and duties. The risk of weaving that web of lies would seem to me to greatly outweigh the advantage of "no one would ever look for me here."

Aes Sedai have nearly the anonymity and so much more freedom. All she has to do is walk around looking like she is heading somewhere important and no-one would ever think twice.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 05:28 PM
I personally think she is pretending to be some obscure brown hidden away in the library but if she is disguised as AS she might have a problem due to her own work. Someone can correct me but I was under the impression that sisters move around the tower now in pairs for protection.

Does she have a friend she can stroll around with?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 05:59 PM
The Accepted would make sense on one level: None of them were given an Oath against lying to prove their allegiance to the Light after Egwene took over. Remember, Verin's book stated that the Black Ajah didn't recruit among the Accepted/Novices.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 06:06 PM
I wonder given the chaos in the tower with its halls being rearranged and the Ajahs at each other's throats how much attention was paid to the novices and especially the accepted.

Novices probably required closer supervision given their age and limited channeling skills.

All the same it would be easy for any forsaken to take the oath and swear that she is not a member of the Black Ajah. It is after all the truth.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 08:50 PM
I would think that the biggest argument against novice/accepted is that Mesaana would have to be channeling an awful lot to get out of chores and duties. The risk of weaving that web of lies would seem to me to greatly outweigh the advantage of "no one would ever look for me here."

Aes Sedai have nearly the anonymity and so much more freedom. All she has to do is walk around looking like she is heading somewhere important and no-one would ever think twice.
The biggest strike against her masquerading as an accepted or Novice is the dress code:


eWOT:
Mesaana meets with Alviarin. She tells Alviarin to learn why the heads of the Ajahs are secretly meeting together. She believes that Galina is dead. Alviarin notes that she is actually wearing a dress of bronze silk with black scrollwork. (TPoD,Ch25)

She'd risk a trip to the MoN wearing anything not white or white with banded hem.

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:10 PM
I think it's obvious that Mesaana fooled Egwene by saying "I am not Black Ajah" after she swore the Oaths, and she no doubt was planning on trying to steal the rod to remove them at first opportunity (no idea how much of a guard the rod is under - Egwene might have thought that it was pointless to guard it after all the Blacks were gone from the Tower, but hopefully not).

The reason I think it's obvious is that Egwene thought to herself that Mesaana would have to have found a way to beat the Oath Rod to still be in the Tower...and that thought was interrupted by Silviana knocking.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 09:32 PM
The biggest strike against her masquerading as an accepted or Novice is the dress code:


eWOT:
Mesaana meets with Alviarin. She tells Alviarin to learn why the heads of the Ajahs are secretly meeting together. She believes that Galina is dead. Alviarin notes that she is actually wearing a dress of bronze silk with black scrollwork. (TPoD,Ch25)

She'd risk a trip to the MoN wearing anything not white or white with banded hem.

I don't think there's any reason why she couldn't have other dresses, especially considering that Mesaana can Travel. On top of that, a Mask of Mirrors can make her look like anything she wants. She could be wearing a fancy dress, casting a MoM, inverting the weaves, and making it look like she's wearing novice/Accepted dresses.

I'm not sure I believe this, but I'm playing devil's advocate here.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 11:15 PM
I think it's obvious that Mesaana fooled Egwene by saying "I am not Black Ajah" after she swore the Oaths, and she no doubt was planning on trying to steal the rod to remove them at first opportunity (no idea how much of a guard the rod is under - Egwene might have thought that it was pointless to guard it after all the Blacks were gone from the Tower, but hopefully not).

The reason I think it's obvious is that Egwene thought to herself that Mesaana would have to have found a way to beat the Oath Rod to still be in the Tower...and that thought was interrupted by Silviana knocking.
depends on how it was worded. If it was "I am not Black Ajah," there's wriggle room. If it's "I have never served the Dark One" there's significantly less wriggle room (the only one I can see if that they call him the Great Lord), but that'd take alot of mental dexterity to convince yourself of.

Terez
11-01-2009, 11:16 PM
Well, obviously it depends on how it was worded. But I specified how I think she would have worded it. ;)

Yuri33
11-02-2009, 01:36 AM
I haven't read TGS, but can we confirm that Mesaana is still in the WT? I really can't see her actually subjecting herself to a binder, temporarily or not. She may be part of the group that was able to flee the Tower.

The BWB says Mesaana is just past her middle years, just over 300 years old. If she had to swear to multiple Oaths ("I'm not BA" + 3 oaths), she could have keeled over on the spot. Again, I'm not clear on the mechanics of the Purge as written in TGS, so I'm just speculating.

Terez
11-02-2009, 01:57 AM
I haven't read TGS, but can we confirm that Mesaana is still in the WT?
No. It just seems unlikely she would abandon her post so easily. She might have gone with the Blacks to the Black Tower (which is where I assume they went). I don't think that the Oaths work quite that way - at least, there's nothing to indicate they would work that way.

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 07:52 AM
Aes Sedai, being Aes Sedai, probably would have closed that loop hole especially since I believe there are female Dark Friends who can channel that are not Black Ajah, but I might be mistaken.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 06:50 PM
I haven't read TGS, but can we confirm that Mesaana is still in the WT? I really can't see her actually subjecting herself to a binder, temporarily or not. She may be part of the group that was able to flee the Tower.

No, there is no hard evidence where specifically Mesaana has been since that little torturing scene by the "Hand of the Dark" with Alviarin watching part of it.

Early in the series their were bands of darkfriend children, preaching the glories of the Dark One in Andor, according the Gareth Bryne. That's a trademark tool of Mesaana.

Well, Mesaana was in the company of Demandred in tGS. I can only speculate that Mesaana and Demandred are jointly "ruling somewhere" now --> Shara?


The BWB says Mesaana is just past her middle years, just over 300 years old. If she had to swear to multiple Oaths ("I'm not BA" + 3 oaths), she could have keeled over on the spot.

None of the Chosen have subjected themselves to taking three Oaths on a Binder rod, so I'd be shocked to see Mesaana taking those Oaths in the White Tower. I highly doubt Mesaana is an Aes Sedai in the White Tower now, after reading tGS twice through.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 12:34 PM
So - whether or not I will be vindicated on Verin and Lanfear, will have to wait a few more years, but Brandon says he will give me a definitive answer after the last book comes out.

I can wait. :)

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:36 PM
So - whether or not I will be vindicated on Verin and Lanfear, will have to wait a few more years, but Brandon says he will give me a definitive answer after the last book comes out.

I can wait. :)

The next time you are at a Q & A, you should wear a white cloak with a Shepherd's Crook on it while carrying a pair of pincers.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Let's not get that image in his head...remember, we want him answering these questions.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 01:18 PM
Let's not get that image in his head...remember, we want him answering these questions.

The Questioners are very effective from what I understand.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 02:36 PM
Well, obviously it depends on how it was worded. But I specified how I think she would have worded it. ;)Is there reason to think that anyone used a wording that was different from the one that Egwene used, when she started this?
I am asking, since an AS who on her own decides to use a variant wording would make herself rather suspect. So I think that what Egwene used became the effective standard, since any deviation would have to be defended quite effectively indeed in order to avoid suspicion.
Egwene looked up. "I am not a Darkfriend," she announced to the room. "And you know that it cannot be a lie."Jolly good, I would say.

Then again, there's this bit:
You certainly sound as if you don't trust them." So-called? A thought came to him, but he could not manage to say it. "Are you a...? Are you...?" It was not the kind of thing you accused someone of.
"A Darkfriend?" Selene said mockingly. She sounded amused, not angered. She sounded contemptuous. "One of those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power? I follow no one. There is one man I could stand beside, but I do not follow."Now, the question is: does Mesaana consider herself "One of those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power?"
If not, then she could honestly have passed the "fool proof test" that Egwene uses to root out Servants of the Shadow from the WT.

Hey, I hadn't realised this before. The general term for DFs, Forsaken and such should be Shadar Sedai. That's convenient, isn't it? :p

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 05:43 AM
Just for the record, I read the first page of this thread, but not the second.

The biggest thing to me is, the Forsaken do not really consider themselves "Friends of the Dark". They are separate and above them. So, even with the oaths, I think Mesaana could believe herself to not be a darkfriend or a member of the Black Ajah (since she's not really an Aes Sedai in the first place) She could no doubt easily enough have the oaths removed later, she's crafty enough for that.

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:58 AM
Is there reason to think that anyone used a wording that was different from the one that Egwene used, when she started this? Yes:

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 26 - The Extra Bit

Saerin waved a hand, and after a moment gained quiet. All present were Sitters, but she had the right to speak first in the Hall, and her forty years counted for something, too. "This is the key to the puzzle, I think," she said, stroking the Rod with her thumb. "Why this, after all?" Abruptly the glow of saidar surrounded her, too, and she channeled Spirit to the Rod. "Under the Light, I will speak no word that is not true. I am not a Darkfriend."

In the silence that followed, a mouse sneezing would have sounded loud.

"Am I right?" Saerin said, releasing the Power. She held the Rod out toward Seaine.

For the third time, Seaine retook the Oath against lying, and for the second time repeated that she was not of the Black. Pevara did the same with frozen dignity. And eyes sharp as an eagle’s.

"This is ridiculous," Talene said. "There is no Black Ajah."

Yukiri took the Rod from Pevara and channeled. "Under the Light, I will speak no word that is not true. I am not Black Ajah." The light of saidar around her winked out, and she handed the Rod to Doesine.

Talene frowned in disgust. "Stand aside, Doesine. I for one will not put up with this filthy suggestion."

"Under the Light, I will speak no word that is not true," Doesine said almost reverently, the glow around her like a halo. "I am not of the Black Ajah." When matters were serious, her tongue was as clean as any Mistress of Novices could have wished. She extended the Rod to Talene. No suspicion at all - all of these statements were taken to mean the same thing. In this case, though, I think we can be reasonably certain that none of them were Mesaana. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 06:31 AM
Yes, but that is not in the mass confession which Egwene orchestrated.

Egwene set the standard. Then we get:
The others watched carefully for a trick, but Romanda was straightforward in reswearing. She handed the rod back to Egwene. "I am not a Darkfriend," she said. "And I never have been."
Egwene accepted the Oath Rod back. "Thank you, Romanda," she said. "Lelaine, do you wish to be next?"
"Gladly," the woman said. She probably felt e need to vindicate the Blue. One by one, the other women forswore - gasping or hissing at pain of it - then swore again and promised that they were not Darkfriends.That suggests rather strongly that they did actually use the same formula that Egwene had used, and also that they were quite quite alert for any deviations, in case someone would be trying to use a trick around it.

So, once again: is there any reason to think that the method was changed during the mass testing?
We know what formula was used by those that we saw. We know that that formula would not have caught Lanfear, and presumably wouldn't have caught Mesaana either.

I don't think that the earlier "I am not of the Black Ajah" would have done any better, but I doubt that was used at all this time.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:34 AM
That suggests rather strongly that they did actually use the same formula that Egwene had used, and also that they were quite quite alert for any deviations, in case someone would be trying to use a trick around it.
No, it doesn't. Just shows that Romanda and Lelaine used the same words as Egwene.

So, once again: is there any reason to think that the method was changed during the mass testing?
Yes - as has already been clearly shown to you, there is no reason to think that they would suspect that "I am not Black Ajah" and "I am not a Darkfriend" meant different things.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 06:54 AM
Yes - as has already been clearly shown to you, there is no reason to think that they would suspect that "I am not Black Ajah" and "I am not a Darkfriend" meant different things.All right, let's play that game. You are sixth*, and instead of using the same wording that has been accepted as sufficient by all present, you use your own alternative. So you're shielded, and then you have 10 seconds to prove that you do not sneakily serve the DO after all. Go ahead, make your case. All you need do is prove conclusively on the spot that your wording would be impossible for members of the Black Ajah to use.

* Or seventh, or later still. Egwene, Sheriam who bailed out rather suspiciously, Moria who bailed out even more suspiciously, Romanda, Lelaine, then someone else which could be you.

Terez
11-04-2009, 07:05 AM
Mesaana was not in the rebel camp, so I'm not sure what your point is.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 07:32 AM
My point is that once Egwene had done this for the rebel camp, she repeated the whole procedure for every AS (possible also for all the Accepted and Novices) in the WT. So if Mesaana had still been in the WT, posing as an AS, would she have been caught out by this procedure?
I think that she could have passed the test, though I am not at all sure that she would have taken the risk.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 07:36 AM
I think that she could have passed the test, though I am not at all sure that she would have taken the risk.I agree, but I think for different reasons.

I feel that the wording of the question was immaterial, unless they changed it to "I am not a follower of the dark one."
I feel that Mesaana and the other Forsaken consider themselves NOT "Friends of the Dark" and NOT "Black Ajah". They are something above and beyond either of those. So, if someone bound by the oath of no lies believes something is true, they can say it. Ergo I feel that Mesaana could easily have passed whether the saying was "I am not Black Ajah" or "I am not a Darkfriend" because I feel that in her opinion, she is not.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 08:20 AM
They make good points. The statement required should have been "I do not serve the Shadow and I never have" or "I do not serve the Dark One and I never have".

Egwene left loopholes...not surprising as she's not nearly as smart as she thinks she is.

Ivhon
11-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Im still having trouble with any Forsaken allowing him/herself to be bound.

No lies? After centuries of lying through her teeth habitually do we expect Mesaana to be able to dissemble like an AS without making any suspicious or contradictory statements?

More importantly, given the paranoia the Forsaken typically exhibit, I can't imagine any of them allowing themselves to be bound to not use the Power as a weapon. Not even temporarily. Puts them at too much disadvantage.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Im still having trouble with any Forsaken allowing him/herself to be bound.

No lies? After centuries of lying through her teeth habitually do we expect Mesaana to be able to dissemble like an AS without making any suspicious or contradictory statements?

More importantly, given the paranoia the Forsaken typically exhibit, I can't imagine any of them allowing themselves to be bound to not use the Power as a weapon. Not even temporarily. Puts them at too much disadvantage.
This.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2009, 12:35 PM
No lies? After centuries of lying through her teeth habitually do we expect Mesaana to be able to dissemble like an AS without making any suspicious or contradictory statements?

If she has been masquerading as Aes Sedai for this long, she has learned how to carefully word/phrase ANY statement she makes. Not to mention her dealings with the other Chosen...phraseology isn't an issue to these folks imo.

I am leaning towards the idea of her finding a way around the oaths. As so many have argued here now, the wording of the DF disclaimer can be picked apart.

For a long while I thought she was not actually pretending to be AS, but one of the workers, like Laras. Verin seemed convinced Laras was not a DF, so that moves me to the other side now. That could be intentional however. We want to believe so badly now in Verin's thoughts, notes, comments that we overlook the possibility that a Forsaken could be a wee bit smarter.

When does the next book come out? :D There, I went ahead and said it.

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:40 PM
Im still having trouble with any Forsaken allowing him/herself to be bound.
It's not as if she couldn't unbind herself at first opportunity. RJ has said that even the reflection of the Rod in Tel'aran'rhiod would work. So, whether or not she stayed totally depends on whether or not she thought she could continue to influence things there.

Ishara
11-05-2009, 02:47 PM
Okay, what the hell does 568 mean?!

Sarevok
11-05-2009, 02:54 PM
Okay, what the hell does 568 mean?!
I dunno, but 598 is the first page of the chapter with Verin.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Okay, what the hell does 568 mean?!

It means that you need to work on your title-reading skills :)

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:57 PM
Excuse me?

Ishara
11-05-2009, 03:32 PM
Um, not having the book with me, I feel as if it was a legitimate question! kthanksbye

Terez
11-05-2009, 03:34 PM
It was Ishara - Camel's just really insecure, so it makes him feel better about himself to insult people when there's no real reason to do so.

Ishara
11-05-2009, 03:37 PM
LOL. Am not offended - just confused. As per the usual. ;)

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-05-2009, 03:37 PM
I think friendly sarcasm was implied with the smiley Terez, relax.

Ish, the thread title is 598 not 568 and is a page reference. :D

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 03:37 PM
Um, not having the book with me, I feel as if it was a legitimate question! kthanksbye

I was poking fun at you. The number is 598. You type 568.

Oh, wait, I forgot:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/matoyak/SeriousBusiness.png

Ishara
11-05-2009, 03:57 PM
LOL - ah thread titles, not chapter titles. Well. Fine. ;)

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 06:33 PM
Oh, wait, I forgot:
I have a feeling we're gonna owe Matoyak some royalties before this is all said and done...

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 08:40 PM
I have a feeling we're gonna owe Matoyak some royalties before this is all said and done...Well, I would be counting them in, except I found the base image of that on the Creative Commons, with a free-to-use license. All I did was add the words. So it's still a free-to-use ;)

Oh wait, I mean gimmie tha monies! >.>

Also, Terez, relax. Obvious joke is obvious.