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View Full Version : Vindication Can Be Sweet - Spoilers!


Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 10:20 AM
Years ago, I mistakenly accepted answers I received from Jordan regarding a pet circumstantial theory I'd been pushing for years, as evidence that I had been wrong all along. Isabela - can you look up this part of the recording from Dragon Con? ((Tamyrlin question removed at his request. He will post it later.)comment by Isabel about answer for Tams question; hehe, sometimes you wish you hadnt asked the question or only gotten a RAFO). I can't find the exact text of the question about Verin and Lanfear that led me to believe that theory was dead.

So, without further ado...a reminder - Verin and Lanfear...sadly, I made one incorrect conclusion that affected my understanding of what was really going on, namely that Verin was not Black Ajah. I thought Verin could get the information she wanted, and be used, without being Black Ajah. However, it now appears that my other suspicions were correct - Verin and Lanfear were connected.

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=100&theo=1225

http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/3893

http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/4136

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:25 AM
It's a small faction:

http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=39

But I am in it. :) I joined it after RJ gave that quote, not knowing about it, and I remember being so disappointed when you told me. So I'm happy too!

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:15 AM
Which question do you want to know?
This one?

Tamyrlin: Did lanfear and Verin have had any contact and if not did Verin give Egwene the ter’ angreal of her own free will?
RJ: Yeah she gave it with her own free will and choice. And no contact between Lanfear and verin.

I am not sure what exactly do you want to know. As far as I remember reading. Verin gave the ter angreal of her own free will and choice.

How did you see Lanfear and Verin connected than?

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Anyway I can get a copy of it, if it is?

I want to make sure that was the exact question and answer.

I will explain later why it's now obvious that Lanfear and Verin are connected.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:04 PM
Anyway I can get a copy of it, if it is?

I want to make sure that was the exact question and answer.

I will explain later why it's now obvious that Lanfear and Verin are connected.

Is it intuitively obvious??

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 12:12 PM
I always thought it was intuitively obvious - now it is practically a fact.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:25 PM
I think there is a connection but I am anxious to hear your evidence. After reading this, I am far far more impressed with Verin than any other AS outside of Moiraine.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 12:35 PM
I included in the first post on this thread. I don't have additional proof - beyond what we now have been told by Verin in TGS, starting on page 598.

Ok, I have a little more proof than that...but I need to get some clarification first before I post that.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:40 PM
I included in the first post on this thread. I don't have additional proof - beyond what we now have been told by Verin in TGS, starting on page 598.

Ok, I have a little more proof than that...but I need to get some clarification first before I post that.


I think you nailed it here: "am not saying that Verin is Lanfear. Instead, I am of the opinion that Lanfear used Verin, either through compulsion, or Verin allowed herself to willingly be used, in other words, made a deal, for information. If Jordan never wanted there to be a connection, he made a huge amount of coincedental connections for nothing." Tamyrlin on 05.23.2005

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 07:03 PM
However, it now appears that my other suspicions were correct - Verin and Lanfear were connected.
I look forward to seeing your rationale here, Chief. It could certainly still be argued, but I can't see that it was confirmed per se.

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 10:08 AM
I thought RJ debunked it also from DragonCon, but since I'm in your faction as well, I'd like to see this vindication ;)

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Look, Verin was Black Ajah. Now go back and read The Great Hunt.

Lanfear arrives and immediately gets involved. The Dark Prophecy (doesn't Verin translate that a bit) shows up. A short time later Lanfear takes Rand into the Mirror World via the Portal Stone. That next morning Verin shows up and lies that Moiraine sent her. So, Moiraine didn't send her. Therefore, who sent her? What was she doing other than watching over the boys while Lanfear took Rand away?

Actually, I wonder if Brandon will answer that question.

These go on and on. I'm not going to rehash each point, but each one becomes more obvious now that we know Verin was working with the Black Ajah, and Lanfear was very very active in the White Tower for the first three books.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Another interesting project to do on a reread is to go back and see how many things Sheriam messed up in her role as a BA Leader (she was clearly one of the top 13 on the BA council). I would venture a guess that Verin was also on that leadership council considering the amount of free reign she had as well as her extensive knowledge of the BA.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 11:37 AM
Tam: RJ said that Verin and Lanfear were not connected.
How do you wanna wriggle around it? If RJ didn't want to answer it, he would have said RAFO.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 11:45 AM
First, that's why I want the audio clip of that question.

Second, I think Jordan talked around the actual question I was asking, because to admit or RAFO that would have given away what was a significant secret/reveal that he was obviously planning. No one else was talking it or asking it and there are ways to twist those questions that enable a "And no contact between Lanfear and verin" but to mean something else.

Third...well, third will wait until I can ask a few more questions.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Tam: i have listen to the question again. It's at 13.14.

I see the site were i stored it, isn't online anymore.
I also can't send it, because it's too big.

Perhaps someone else stored a copy already?

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 12:14 PM
I think that I only have recordings from other Q&A's on different tours, but I will check if I have anything from DCon.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 12:38 PM
I'd really like a copy of the entire audio.

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 01:03 PM
I think there is a connection but I am anxious to hear your evidence. After reading this, I am far far more impressed with Verin than any other AS outside of Moiraine.

Agreed, Verin is one of most complex character's by far in the series. I'm impressed too, how RJ's crafted her character over the whole series.


One odd part about Verin though, is the Two Rivers scenes when it's obvious Verin Sedai is highly interested in attempting to control the Dragon Reborn via a Warder Bond created by Alanna. This can be seen especially when Perrin answered Verin question about the Rand pulling the "sword" in Tear's Stone fortress, and Verin immediately tells Perrin to not trust Alanna. Meaning, Verin does not want Perrin, but the Dragon Reborn himself. That's also aligns with the discussion, as to why Verin came to Two Rivers in the first place--she expected Rand to come to Two Rivers, not to Tear first.

If Verin and Lanfear met in the White Tower, that would explain why Verin herself never attempted to bond Rand herself. It would be a deathwish. Besides Verin knew in advance that Rand had a mental problem which she didn't want in her own head. Plus, there's the small problem that Verin probably couldn't hide everything from Rand, if she did indeed decide to attempt to bond Rand in Caemlyn herself. Alanna wasn't a BA, and yet she could be manipulated by Verin sucessfully.

But still why would Verin Sedai attempt control Rand via a warder bond indirectly, if she was following Lanfear's own orders? Lanfear was a highly jealous creature...why would Lanfear later say one of the other Chosen are attempting to control Rand to Rahvin, Graendal, Sammael too?? If Lanfear wanted someone to "bond" the Dragon Reborn, why wouldn't she do that very thing herself? Lanfear wouldn't of used another women to try to bond Rand, that's not her style. Lanfear wanted Rand to freely chose to join her side, not by direct force. So Verin took orders from a different Chosen to try to bond Rand? Yes, I believe so.

So moving back to tGH book, which Chosen met Verin Sedai just before Egwene came to her study above the Library?

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 01:15 PM
"So moving back to tGH book, which Chosen met Verin Sedai just before Egwene came to her study above the Library?"

Jordan makes it clear that it was Lanfear, when Lanfear meets Egwene in T'A'R and when he later shows us Lanfear masquerading as Else. Lanfear was all over the place in the White Tower and if Mesaana was lurking she would have stayed out of Lanfear's way.

"But still why would Verin Sedai attempt control Rand via a warder bond indirectly, if she was following Lanfear's own orders? Lanfear was a highly jealous creature...why would Lanfear later says one of the other Chosen are attempting to control Rand to Rahvin, Graendal, Sammael?? If Lanfear wanted someone to "bond" the Dragon Reborn, why wouldn't she do that very thing herself? Lanfear wouldn't of used another women to try to bond Rand, that's not her style. So Verin took orders from a different Chosen to try to bond Rand? Yes, I believe so."

I would agree that if a Chosen was involved, which now seems even more likely, that it certainly was NOT Lanfear. Lanfear's interest in the White Tower was over after the Dragon Reborn and she would never want another woman bonded to Rand.

This brings up the question, was Verin at the Darkfriend meeting? If so, having worked for Ishamael too is likely. I haven't tried to identify which Chosen would have wanted Rand bonded...would be a good thing to do on a re-read.

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 01:42 PM
[/I]Jordan makes it clear that it was Lanfear, when Lanfear meets Egwene in T'A'R and when he later shows us Lanfear masquerading as Else. Lanfear was all over the place in the White Tower and if Mesaana was lurking she would have stayed out of Lanfear's way.

That was my original conclusion years ago, as well. However, the I think the door is slightly openly to what occurred then, because of how Lanfear reacted to noticing that Twisted Ring hidden in Egwene's hand, when she was posing as Else. She stared at Egwene, as if decided what to do, I recall.

Maybe Verin Sedai truly did give Egwene that Twist Ring, freely of her own will? And maybe, Lanfear decided to independently take advantage of her observation of Egwene then in the TAR?

It's a bit messy here, because we know Ishamael, Bel'al had one set of plans working with Mesaana, Liandrin and Verin Sedai. And Lanfear had another set of plans to backstab both Liandrin, Ishamael and Bel'al in Tear. So did Verin Sedai meet both Ishamael and Lanfear in her short Tar Valon stay, after returning for Falme?

We can assume both Ishamael and Lanfear knew of Verin's presents at Falme with Mat, Perrin, Rand, Min, Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne and Hurin. So I could understand why both Chosen would want to meet Verin Sedai shortly after arriving in Tar Valon. Verin Sedai, just might of have taken some independent action giving that TAR ring to Egwene then. Why? To try to counter-balance Ishamael and Bel'al's plans in Tear.


I haven't tried to identify which Chosen would have wanted Rand bonded...would be a good thing to do on a re-read.

Hmm...I recall Lanfear claiming Demandred and/or Moghedien possibly having a hand in trying to control Rand--telling Rahvin, Graendal, Sammael.

Moghedien did say she went to the White Tower to do "research", but Alviarin Freidhen never met nor saw Moghedien--she mentions once in the story. So who did Moghedien speak to of the BA's in Tar Valon for research? I'd think she'd go to a Brown Ajah, who's a BA too. Verin?


--------------------------------------

There is separate evidence suggesting that Verin did in fact at least meet Ishamael in the past, in multiple places throughout the story.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 01:56 PM
I'd really like a copy of the entire audio.

The problem is that is is too big to send: 25,5 mb and gmail sends 25 mb;)
My computer isn't giving me the option, zip this file'. So i might have to find something. I have to look for a site to upload it ;)

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 02:24 PM
http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/3873/t/Verin-s-big-mistake.html

My first post on TL. Ah, partial vindication, and full closure LOL

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 04:50 PM
The problem is that is is too big to send: 25,5 mb and gmail sends 25 mb;)
My computer isn't giving me the option, zip this file'. So i might have to find something. I have to look for a site to upload it ;)

You could use a Box.net free account (http://www.box.net/pricing) to do this, transfer of the audio.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 05:03 PM
"That was my original conclusion years ago, as well. However, the I think the door is slightly openly to what occurred then, because of how Lanfear reacted to noticing that Twisted Ring hidden in Egwene's hand, when she was posing as Else. She stared at Egwene, as if decided what to do, I recall.

Maybe Verin Sedai truly did give Egwene that Twist Ring, freely of her own will? And maybe, Lanfear decided to independently take advantage of her observation of Egwene then in the TAR?"

Verin says, in The Gathering Storm, that Siuan told her to give it to Egwene, which the Black Ajah were not happy about. However, it's key that Verin did not give her the paperwork or any additional guidance and that Lanfear was there to greet her. Is it possible that Lanfear simply recognized that ter'angreal? Sure. Is it more likely that she was in with Verin and learned what she was told to do by Siuan, which is why she stared at the Ter'angreal? And that knowing that, Lanfear told Verin not to help the girl in any way so she could be easily manipulated in T'A'R? I believe so.

However, Lanfear showing up as Else and telling the girls where to find the stuff left by the Black Ajah...hard to play that one off, unless Lanfear knew what they were asked to do...which only Siuan and Verin knew. So, did she learn about the Black Ajah hunters through Verin? Seems obvious now. You can say that Lanfear was just hanging around listening through doors, but now that we know for certain that a key player in the Black Ajah Hunters was Black Ajah...just need Brandon to confirm this point.

"It's a bit messy here, because we know Ishamael, Bel'al had one set of plans working with Mesaana, Liandrin and Verin Sedai. And Lanfear had another set of plans to backstab both Liandrin, Ishamael and Bel'al in Tear. So did Verin Sedai meet both Ishamael and Lanfear in her short Tar Valon stay, after returning for Falme?"

It seems to me that many of the Black Ajah, especially those known to have had contact with Rand and his friends, would have been used by many Chosen.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 06:35 PM
Okeydoke. I would not have any problems with Lanfear giving Verin some orders in tDR - it wouldn't stretch feasibility at all, since we know she was there. I'm just rusty on the whole "Verin and Lanfear were in league together" thing I remember you going on about, back in the day. ;)

Do you just have a link lying about that I could peruse, by any chance?

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Here is the theory.

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=100&theo=1225

It was one from a long while back that I finally added to the theory database.

I like how in the first couple of paragraphs I keep saying, "well, she said this, but I don't think she is Black Ajah".

Hah.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:26 PM
You know guys...

Theres this thing called International Post... you know like they actually fly a hard copy of a CD from Utrecht to Utah!!!!

~GASP~

How prehistoric!

Davian93
10-29-2009, 07:26 PM
You know guys...

Theres this thing called International Post... you know like they actually fly a hard copy of a CD from Utrecht to Utah!!!!

~GASP~

How prehistoric!

A what?

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 09:22 PM
Here is the theory.

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=100&theo=1225

It was one from a long while back that I finally added to the theory database.
Thanks.

I guess I'm still where I was before, though. I could easily see Lanfear giving Verin orders to do the "suspicious" things that she did, but I don't really see any compelling evidence of a long-term working relationship. Not to say there couldn't have been one, just that we don't seem to have enough info to make that assumption. ~shrug~

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 09:34 PM
And more that Verin was immediately relevant to someone like Lanfear and Ishamael. Black Ajah with access to the boys and trust from the Amyrlin, makes it even more clear why Lanfear and likely Ishamael would have worked through Verin.

Ishara
11-04-2009, 07:39 AM
So here's my issue with the Verin is Black Ajah thing (and sorry to drag up a post from page three!):

Was her "Big Mistake" 70 years ago was getting in too deep and having to take the BA Oaths, right? At first, that was my immediate thought, butshe clearly used that "mistake" to her benefit as best she could by recording everything and getting in pretty deep.

(Incidentally, I have no difficulty believing Verin was in the High Council, but I do have significant problems envisioning Sheriam there. Her POV in tGS is too...cowed, for lack of a better word. She sounds like she was at the whims of others her entire time in the BA, not directing things.)

So Verin got stuck having to actually join the BA. Fine. Verin used that to her advantage and worked her way up to the High Council to better infiltrate the organization. Fine. Given her actions though in tGS, I woud like to think that Verin was never really, truly, BA. As in, she was never really, truly evil. I feel as if she used her ability to go against the 3 Oaths to help Rand and the others as much as she coud. I can't find one thing (granted, off the top of my head) that indicates otherwise.

Now, given that she was in the High Concil, I'm sure she had her orders from both higher Council members and even Forsaken - but aside from carrying those out as innocuously as possible, I don't see Verin as your malicisous Black Ajah. I still feel that she used that to benefit the Light.

Am I romanticizing?

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 08:30 AM
I see Verin as being similar to Ingtar. Neither were evil at heart darkfriend Dark One worshipping power grubbing light-haters etc... They both joined out of desperation (for life or for hope) and did evil things, but held to the Light's Mantra that you can't go so far to the shadow that you can't be redeemed. And not only that, they proved it by their actions, and were justly anointed heroes by Egwene and Rand. Not all will see it like that, however. We don't know what evils Verin perpetrated in her long reign as a darkfriend, though it seems they could hardly compare to the good she achieved. "The ends do not always justify the means" etc..