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Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:49 PM
!!!PLEASE DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED THE GATHERING STORM!!!











So the Dragon took "advantage" of his link to Moridin and saved himself by channeling the True Power.

What does this mean for him long-term. We could easily see a vast difference in his personality afterward and the "dark aura" that surrounded him from that point forward.

Is that gone with his integration on the slopes of Dragonmount? Or will it continue to affect him from here on out. The Dark One got his claws on Rand and all his future actions may be tainted by that mark. Think of it along the lines of a Dark Jedi "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny!"

There is strong reason to hope now that the Dragon has learned laughter and tears again but there is also reason to be wary.

Personally, I think it was clearly part of the DO's plan to have Rand access the True Power through that link. Semi was freed for exactly that reason. The question is why? There is no way it was an accident. The DO and Moridin definitely WANTED it to happen.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Yeah ;) I am very curious about what is going to happen with this. I have to think about it.
It will have repurcursions. Especially since Rand used the Choedan Kal at first to resist the temptation. Now the Choedan Kal is gone.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Yeah ;) I am very curious about what is going to happen with this. I have to think about it.
It will have repurcursions. Especially since Rand used the Choedan Kal at first to resist the temptation. Now the Choedan Kal is gone.

He'll clearly be desperate again and where will he reach to "save" himself now that the Choedan Kal (that was a surprise despite the hints throughout the book, eh?) is gone.

I wonder if his first step is to go apologize to Tam...

Isabel
10-27-2009, 01:03 PM
Another thing I noticed:

Something is needed to Grasp the DO for completing the Bore. Anyone thinks of Fain?

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:12 PM
Yes, we got some very good hints on what Rand needs to do to Seal the Bore.

However, I wonder if Caddy and Min are correct on that bit of Prophecy they "deciphered".

Perhaps the "three" are actually Rand, Mat, and Perrin and the Blade of Light is Rand's new sword?

The Callandor reference could work and it would make sense that Callandor has another purpose but I'm not quite sure I buy it.

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 01:18 PM
What does this mean for him long-term. We could easily see a vast difference in his personality afterward and the "dark aura" that surrounded him from that point forward.

Is that gone with his integration on the slopes of Dragonmount? Or will it continue to affect him from here on out. The Dark One got his claws on Rand and all his future actions may be tainted by that mark. Think of it along the lines of a Dark Jedi "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny!"

Well, there's also the quote about "the three wil be one" (I believe Min read it in the book about the prophecies). That strongly suggests Moridin joining in Rand's mind someone.

Come to think of it... That was said in concuntion with something about Callandor. I may have to reread the part of tDR where he takes a hold of Callandor to look for clues about this...

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 07:14 PM
Personally, I think it was clearly part of the DO's plan to have Rand access the True Power through that link. Semi was freed for exactly that reason. The question is why? There is no way it was an accident. The DO and Moridin definitely WANTED it to happen.
I would agree that the Dark One wanted it to happen - from everything we know about the True Power, it would have been impossible for Rand to tap it otherwise. It might be getting ahead of ourselves to assume that Moridin also wanted it to happen... ;)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 07:19 PM
I would agree that the Dark One wanted it to happen - from everything we know about the True Power, it would have been impossible for Rand to tap it otherwise. It might be getting ahead of ourselves to assume that Moridin also wanted it to happen... ;)

Well, I think it might just be another move in the Fisher King game is all. Moridin seems like he has a pretty good plan and he's working directly in concert with the DO...unlike any of the other Forsaken.

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:22 PM
I think it was clearly part of the DO's plan to have Rand access the True Power through that link. Semi was freed for exactly that reason. The question is why? There is no way it was an accident. The DO and Moridin definitely WANTED it to happen.
Yeah, it was definitely part of the plan. As to the why - that's obvious, or at least, it's obvious in part. There could be other reasons. But Moridin was pissed at Semirhage about the hand thing, so he wanted revenge - dunno about you, but I see a lot of what happens after as being Moridin residue. Also, Moridin wanted to cause Rand 'pain of heart', and forcing Rand to kill a woman was a good way to do that, neh?

Davian93
10-27-2009, 07:25 PM
Yeah, it was definitely part of the plan. As to the why - that's obvious, or at least, it's obvious in part. There could be other reasons. But Moridin was pissed at Semirhage about the hand thing, so he wanted revenge - dunno about you, but I see a lot of what happens after as being Moridin residue. Also, Moridin wanted to cause Rand 'pain of heart', and forcing Rand to kill a woman was a good way to do that, neh?

That is my thought as well. Add in the fact that the DO now has a channel and even a small hold on the Dragon through his usage of the TP and that was a huge defeat for Rand that the Light might think was a victory as Semi died. There were plenty of more signs that Rand has taken on many of Moridin's mannerisms down to their preferred colors (Red and Black) for clothing throughout the books. I would love to see how much of the darkness is gone now that Rand has learned to laugh and cry again (though hardly in the way Cadsuane was thinking).

Davian93
10-27-2009, 07:34 PM
Sorry for an additional post here but I just had another thought: What's up with Rand's ta'veren effect only causing more negativity now? It happened after the TP usage so it might just be connected. Rand is no longer causing good and bad now...its almost as if he's corrupting the Pattern and increasing negative chaos by his very presence.

Also, Rand noted that his ta'avereness seemed to be causing more and more powerful distortions to the Pattern. Personally, I think he has it backwards. His ta'veren effect is the same but the Pattern is simply weaker which magnifies the effect.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 07:39 PM
Well, I think it might just be another move in the Fisher King game is all. Moridin seems like he has a pretty good plan and he's working directly in concert with the DO...unlike any of the other Forsaken.
Well, it seems he's not controlling everything, based on the Rand/Moridin TAR meeting. Honestly I could see it going either way, it was just a thought.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 07:40 PM
Sorry for an additional post here but I just had another thought: What's up with Rand's ta'veren effect only causing more negativity now? It happened after the TP usage so it might just be connected. Rand is no longer causing good and bad now...its almost as if he's corrupting the Pattern and increasing negative chaos by his very presence.

Also, Rand noted that his ta'avereness seemed to be causing more and more powerful distortions to the Pattern. Personally, I think he has it backwards. His ta'veren effect is the same but the Pattern is simply weaker which magnifies the effect.
I'd tend to think it's the Dark One's Touch on him, i.e. the dark shadow that everyone can almost see on him. The food spoilage especially makes it seem that Rand is now a more direct carrier for Shadowblight, for lack of a better term.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 07:46 PM
I'd tend to think it's the Dark One's Touch on him, i.e. the dark shadow that everyone can almost see on him. The food spoilage especially makes it seem that Rand is now a more direct carrier for Shadowblight, for lack of a better term.

Yeah, that would make sense. Rand is not a good person to be around during TGS. Who knows if that will change now though.

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:56 PM
Seems quite obvious it's changed.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Seems quite obvious it's changed.

Well, the connection will still be there regardless of Rand's renewal of spirit. He channeled the True Power. There has to be lasting consequences to that beyond what we've already seen. That's what I mean.

Ozymandias
10-27-2009, 08:00 PM
It was strongly implied that now that he thinks he has something to live and fight for, he'll be much more pleasant. Probably not farm-boy pleasant, or even Lord of Chaos pleasant... but maybe WH pleasant.

And I thought the three would be Elayne and Avi... just a thought. Had to be two women, right?

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:02 PM
@Dav - I'm sure it will tie into the Rand-Moridin story line in some way. I was just talking about Rand not being a good person to be around. The reintegration largely fixed his mental problems.

@Ozy - I had the same thought, but I'm missing something, I think...

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 08:04 PM
Seems quite obvious it's changed.
Really? Why?

Davian93
10-27-2009, 08:05 PM
@Dav - I'm sure it will tie into the Rand-Moridin story line in some way. I was just talking about Rand not being a good person to be around. The reintegration largely fixed his mental problems.

@Ozy - I had the same thought, but I'm missing something, I think...

I'm sure he'll be nice again but the Dark Aura (if its the result of the TP usage) should still be there. It depends if the Aura is the result of Rand's hardening/loss of humanity or if its due to the more sinister TP/DO connection.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:07 PM
Oh okay, I just didn't know what you were talking about.

I should probably go read the rest of the book, huh? I've only read through chapter 23, though I did skim through the later Rand chapters, I was looking for Lews Therin stuff.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 08:09 PM
Oh okay, I just didn't know what you were talking about.

I should probably go read the rest of the book, huh? I've only read through chapter 23, though I did skim through the later Rand chapters, I was looking for Lews Therin stuff.

Yeah, I would suggest. There is a fairly significant ending that would help you understand what we're referring to.

Terez
10-27-2009, 08:13 PM
Yeah, I gathered most of the ending. Just didn't get a lot of details. I'll be done soon though. If I can get off Theoryland long enough to read it. :D

ShadowbaneX
10-28-2009, 09:53 PM
It seems to me that while it might have passed very quickly, the chaining of Rand and his subsequent use of the True Power, very, very, very nearly allowed the Shadow to win. Rand was on the verge of destroying it all.

Think back to the Fisher game as someone pointed out. The Fisher could be on the other side and yet you could still use him to win, and that very nearly happened here. For us, it didn't mean much, we know there are two more books coming before the end, but for the people in the series they were a moment's breath away from total annihilation, the Shadow was a moment's breath away from winning, the Dark One was a moment's breath away from being free. Sounds to me as if it was more then enough reason for the DO to allow Rand to use it.

Sounds exactly like the sort of planning Ishy would need to use. For Rand into taking that one extra step to push him beyond the point of no return...and it nearly worked.

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 06:03 AM
damn SBX now you are making me think. I have to agree with that reasoning. and that is exactly how Moridin, or Ishamael if you prefer, would play it. Semirhage was toast the moment she got captured. It was just a matter of how.

Terez
10-31-2009, 06:47 AM
Yeah, that reasoning is exactly why I read the passage that way, as Moridin influencing all of it, and him working together with Shaidar Haran. Some have said (can't remember if it was here or not) that they believe Shaidar Haran was acting independent of Moridin here, but I don't buy it. Moridin might have had a way to prevent feeling the pain, or he might have simply been willing to put up with it temporarily until Rand was goaded into sensing the True Power...and Moridin would have known that Semirhage wouldn't kill Rand so long as she had a way to control and torture him, and he also knows that her methods are typically direct weaving to the brain, rather than physical maiming.

Chappy
11-22-2009, 04:08 PM
*Bump*

*Drags the topic back on track*


So the Dragon took "advantage" of his link to Moridin and saved himself by channeling the True Power.

Personally, I think it was clearly part of the DO's plan to have Rand access the True Power through that link. Semi was freed for exactly that reason. The question is why? There is no way it was an accident. The DO and Moridin definitely WANTED it to happen.

I don't see it. Why would the DO betray Semirhage? If he was captured and brought safely to Shayol Gaul, I think the DO would have won. They could have made him do anything they wanted, then. Either through Semi's torture techniques, or Graendal's compulsion. Either way, Rand would have been unable to resist anything they asked.

For example, Graendal Compelling Rand to cause chaos, and sending him back to his own side probably would have started a civil war, with those who know he's tainted on one side, and those following the Prophecies on the other. (and Taim would side with the Rand's half, thus ensuring that A: Rand's side would win, and B: the DO would own the Black Tower in all but name.[as it stands, Rand is the only one who is able to countermand Taim. If Rand started agreeing with Taim...])

Anyways, if the DO granted it, there was some remarkably precise timing with Rand's emotional state.(Re-read it.)




I think it's much more likely that Rand managed to channel it without the DO's permission.

How? I don't know.


(ATM, my current theory is that LTT is wrong, and ANYONE can channel the TP. (Mental instability [Or possibly despair/pain] is the trigger, but the kind of pain Rand underwent only happens to someone once every other Age. LTT has, after all, moaned about killing his wife about 3 times a chapter for the last 7 books. And Rand wasn't all that stable either. They both LOOK FORWARD to the day when they're allowed to commit suicide.[Note: Very few people do that.])
(It's not that different. We know a LOT of things that affect channeling the OP are related to the mind of the channeler. [Nynaeve's Block, channeling with hand gestures,clearing emotion before embracing the OP, etc.]

According to this theory, when the DO grants access, He just creates a connection for his Chosen to the TP.)

Terez
11-22-2009, 04:16 PM
I don't see it. Why would the DO betray Semirhage?
Because she is predictable. Like Verin said, the Forsaken's selfishness makes them predictable. Semirhage likes to cause pain more than she likes to kill, and as per Moridin's orders in the prologue to Graendal, we know that he wanted her to cause Rand pain of heart. Since Min is always with Rand....Semirhage's actions were almost entirely predictable, and she did exactly what Moridin wanted her to do. Also, Brandon has confirmed that Moridin and the Dark One are pretty much in lockstep. Moridin is his most trusted servant.

If he was captured and brought safely to Shayol Gaul, I think the DO would have won. They could have made him do anything they wanted, then.
I'm not so sure this is the case. It seems to me that getting Rand to turn dark of his own free will is a more preferable victory for the Shadow, and after he freed himself from the Domination Band, he was indeed turning dark of his own free will (relatively, as he wasn't being controlled via the Domination Band any more).

(ATM, my current theory is that LTT is wrong, and ANYONE can channel the TP.
This has been contradicted by both RJ and Brandon. Brandon places a small caveat on saying that the Dark One's permission is required, but I think that's obviously referring to Rand drawing the True Power through his link with Moridin.

Spasmodean
11-22-2009, 04:32 PM
I'd tend to think it's the Dark One's Touch on him, i.e. the dark shadow that everyone can almost see on him. The food spoilage especially makes it seem that Rand is now a more direct carrier for Shadowblight, for lack of a better term.

The Dragon is one with the land etc etc.
The bubbles of evil, food spoilages etc seem to happen more often as he has mentally declined through the series.

Belazamon
11-22-2009, 05:45 PM
The Dragon is one with the land etc etc.
The bubbles of evil, food spoilages etc seem to happen more often as he has mentally declined through the series.
Yeah, yeah, I made that post before all the signings started. :p

Ozymandias
11-22-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't see it. Why would the DO betray Semirhage? If he was captured and brought safely to Shayol Gaul, I think the DO would have won. They could have made him do anything they wanted, then. Either through Semi's torture techniques, or Graendal's compulsion. Either way, Rand would have been unable to resist anything they asked.

Easy. In what I consider the single most illuminating passage in the entire series in determining the Shadow's strategy (well except the "let the Lord of Chaos rule bit), we see Moridin discuss how he is manipulating events.

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances
The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin.

And while I can't find it at the moment, I'm convinced there is a passage which has Moridin (or someone) mulling over the fact that sometimes its necessary to sacrifice a piece (High Councillor or Spire or something) for advantage.

Together, compelling evidence that Ishamael/Moridin worked behind the scenes, sacrificing Semirhage for the great reward of either turning Rand fully insane, or turning him to the Shadow.


I think it's much more likely that Rand managed to channel it without the DO's permission.

How? I don't know.

Through the connection with Moridin seems to be the going explanation

padfoot89
11-23-2009, 01:59 AM
And while I can't find it at the moment, I'm convinced there is a passage which has Moridin (or someone) mulling over the fact that sometimes its necessary to sacrifice a piece (High Councillor or Spire or something) for advantage.


I think it was Semirhage when she was torturing the Aes Sedai. Not sure though.

I find it a bit hard to believe that this was planned by the DO. If he wanted Rand to use the True Power, he could have just ordered Semirhage to force Rand to use TP. That way, Semi can still live, the DR has channeled TP and he is still in their control. Unless, the domination band can't control when TP is involved or Rand had to do it of his own free will.

I think that Moridin feeling the effect of Semi's torture seized the True Power and Rand got hold it through the link.
Alternatively, the original plan was to force Rand to use TP but Semi's actions made him do it himself.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 04:34 AM
I think that Moridin feeling the effect of Semi's torture seized the True Power and Rand got hold it through the link.That's a neat idea, I have to say.

Chappy
11-23-2009, 05:40 AM
Unless, the domination band can't control when TP is involved or Rand had to do it of his own free will.
It obviously can't control the TP, else Rand wouldn't have been able to free himself. There's no reason why she couldn't Compel him to use it, though.

Kalli
11-23-2009, 07:13 AM
Sorry for an additional post here but I just had another thought: What's up with Rand's ta'veren effect only causing more negativity now? It happened after the TP usage so it might just be connected. Rand is no longer causing good and bad now...its almost as if he's corrupting the Pattern and increasing negative chaos by his very presence.

I fall back on the 'Dragon is one with the land' concept from the prophecies and believe that its just a reference to his ta'veran effect. Since Rand used TP he also adopted the whole harder then steel strong has cullendar' thing. I think that his sufferings play out upon the land. I think this gets backed up by the Rand's Dragonmount scene where he 'reintegrates' or comes to peace with himself (whatever your thoughts are on this :o). We see Egwene in the tower looking out onto Dragonmount and the odd clouds have parted the sun is shining. The novices and commoners and such in the tower are all excited and hopeful.

Also doesn't anyone think Moridin might be hiding his balefire connection from the DO? I'm not as sure has you guys that it was a planned access to the TP and I'm not so sure that it would look like it was Rand access the TP to the DO.

Think of it like Moridin as the access key. It was Choden Kal that Saidin was drawn through and the key just provided a remote way of using it's power. I think Moridin just played the role of an unwilling access key.

padfoot89
11-23-2009, 01:07 PM
It obviously can't control the TP, else Rand wouldn't have been able to free himself.

I thought that was because Semirhage had imposed no restriction on the use of TP. She never expected that Rand would have access to TP so she only bothered about making sure he didn't use saidin without permission.

Davian93
11-23-2009, 01:10 PM
It obviously can't control the TP, else Rand wouldn't have been able to free himself. There's no reason why she couldn't Compel him to use it, though.

That's assuming Semi knew Rand could access it. There is no reason to suggest she did. It also makes sense that the access has to be voluntary to have the same effect. Semi couldn't just compel him to do it.

Yuri33
11-23-2009, 01:15 PM
TOR Question of the Week, 2/05 - 7/05:
Week 8 Question: When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. [Though RJ said that severing a person from the True Power would require a different method, in the Budapest 2003 interview, which is strange seeing as how the severing weave is described as a shield with a sharp edge. - Terez] It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.

The Domination Band doesn't shield. More likely, it simply controls you will to access the OP. Don't know if Rand could escape if Semi had thought to prevent Rand from accessing the TP.

Chappy
11-24-2009, 05:33 AM
The Domination Band doesn't shield. More likely, it simply controls you will to access the OP. Don't know if Rand could escape if Semi had thought to prevent Rand from accessing the TP.
I doubt she would be able to. If it works anything like the Adam, it creates a involuntary link, with Semi in control. (A linked channeler cannot channel anything unless s/he's the one leading the circle.)

.......This suggests that it is possible to channel the TP while linked to somebody else. :D
Or to channel the TP and saidin simultaniously. Which makes sense, of course.(Although I don't know if the mental discipline to channel both at once exists. XD )

Davian93
11-24-2009, 06:50 AM
Mind you, Rand wasn't channeling or even holding the OP when he used the TP. Remember, Semi wanted it to be a bit more personal so he was simply physically choking Min.

Chappy
11-24-2009, 08:44 AM
Mind you, Rand wasn't channeling or even holding the OP when he used the TP. Remember, Semi wanted it to be a bit more personal so he was simply physically choking Min.
My bad. I didn't think it was possible to be linked without channeling, so I assumed that someone is always connected to Saidar/Saidin when leashed.(I know there's no glow, but size-of-glow=amount-of-power-currently-held, which IS zero.)
(I checked. There is not a single place where it says that a leashed person actually embraced the source, other than the Dominion band. Maybe I'm wrong, and it doesn't work the same way a a'dam does?)

Anyways, I guess this doesn't prove it's possible to channel both at once. XD