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Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Brandon told me that he put a small clue as to Asmodean's killer in this book. Let's find it folks.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Brandon told me that he put a small clue as to Asmodean's killer in this book. Let's find it folks.

Hmmm...interesting. It must have been really small. Perhaps I'll catch it on my reread.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 12:55 PM
-What about how Meidani removed Verin's body? Can give a small clue as how to the body of Asmo disappeared.

-Could he mean that by killing Graendal, it decreases the chance Graendal killed Asmo?

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:57 PM
-What about how Meidani removed Verin's body? Can give a small clue as how to the body of Asmo disappeared.

-Could he mean that by killing Graendal, it decreases the chance Graendal killed Asmo?

That could be it. Was anyone stunned by Graendal's abrupt passing. So much build up throughout the books and she was just gone in a split second.

EDIT: Should we mark the title as SPOILERS, Tam?

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 12:58 PM
Because I'd like it to be true. Brandon's use of the word "small" could be ironic...as in, Rand using balefire on Graendal's domain...heh, small.

As in - "it ain't her".

Of course, this assumes Graendal's death...which remains suspect for the time being.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Because I'd like it to be true. Brandon's use of the word "small" could be ironic...as in, Rand using balefire on Graendal's domain...heh, small.

As in - "it ain't her".

Of course, this assumes Graendal's death...which remains suspect for the time being.

Seemed pretty cut and dry to me. Rand was certain of it.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 12:59 PM
That could be it. Was anyone stunned by Graendal's abrupt passing. So much build up throughout the books and she was just gone in a split second.


I thought that was kind of cool and logical (when you think about it). You don't give your enemies a chance.
So I thought it was realistic :)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:01 PM
I thought that was kind of cool and logical (when you think about it). You don't give your enemies a chance.
So I thought it was realistic :)

Yeah, me too. Rand's plan was vicious to say the least...likely a result of the darkness around him at that point.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 01:01 PM
Because I'd like it to be true. Brandon's use of the word "small" could be ironic...as in, Rand using balefire on Graendal's domain...heh, small.

As in - "it ain't her".

Of course, this assumes Graendal's death...which remains suspect for the time being.

Well, I would say 99% Graendal is dead. There are very small ifs and what ifs.
And ofcourse someone else could have known Asmo is dead and killed by Graendal. Like Moridin or the DO. So I don't exclude Graendal yet, but I am happy that it has become less likely.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 01:12 PM
There have to be a few ways she could still be alive.

First, couldn't she have created a compulsion that fell away on its own? She's not an idiot. Why would Rand send this decoy of sorts in? She knew that Rand found her, therefore she could have surmised that he knew about the compulsion...so what be so obvious in its use if she didn't have some type of plan for the decoy and for her escape? In other words, she thinks "he will come after me as long as he thinks I'm alive"...convoluted for sure, that she could reason it all out and set up this person's compulsion to fall away, while escaping...

Wait!!!

Is there any way she could have made herself into Rand's decoy? Holy s*** that would be a great twist. I need to go back and read that part.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Maybe its possible. That would be too funny if she was using an inverted Mirror of Mists there. Ballsy move to say the least though.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 01:18 PM
It would be amazing. But not a crazy gamble. He found me. He knows I'm using compulsion. He sent this person in expecting me to use him. He won't stop looking for me now. Unless...

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 01:24 PM
I'd join that faction. :)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:32 PM
It would be amazing. But not a crazy gamble. He found me. He knows I'm using compulsion. He sent this person in expecting me to use him. He won't stop looking for me now. Unless...

I just reread it again. I don't think its possible for it to be Graendal in disguise. How would she make the compulsion weaves disappear in her own her own head? She can't channel her own brain afterall.

However, we don't know WHO specifically Compelled Graendal. Not for sure anyway. Its possible that Graendal used a proxy to channel the weaves and escaped while Rand was building up his Balefire beam (something that wasn't instantaneous for whatever reason). Or she had the Compulsion net dissipate somehow.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 02:06 PM
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Rand is quite clear. He believes Graendal will know it is a ruse by him. Then, she would have to ask, if he knew she was there, why didn't he attack? Because he thinks that she will run if he attacks. Therefore, he sent his envoy, to check if I was "in the building". Why would he do that? Because he planned a large enough attack that would prevent me from escaping. What is he waiting for? He is waiting for his servant to return whom he will check for signs that I was there. So, if I want him to pull off his attack, I have to add compulsion to this servants mind...or better yet, I can pretend to be his servant, Mask of Mirrors, inverted threads, fake compulsion, and find out what his real plans are, he'd never expect me not to run

Davian93
10-27-2009, 02:09 PM
How would one fake that weave though? It would still involve channeling on herself...in a way that should be impossible. I'm more inclined to think she slipped away somehow.

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 02:14 PM
Or she could use a loose Compulsion weave on the servant, one that will unravel in a short while. Next, she runs like hell.
She hopes the ruse will work, but if not, it doens't matter.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 02:18 PM
I don't think it's a hard sell to imagine that Graendal has learned a way to add fake weaves that mimic the sensation of real weaves of compulsion when someone delves. Now, I don't think Graendal expected what happened, however Rand gives her time to respond by instructing Nynaeve what to check for after he balefired.

Even the text, when you imagine it being Graendal, is quite hilarious - "I lady of the castle down there was quite friendly--she is an ally, my Lord. You have nothing to fear from her! Very refined, I must say."

I agree - it's far fetched, but certainly fun.

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 02:20 PM
She wouldn't expect Balefire...so what is the ruse? Plus, if it was real, from what we saw Nynaeve do, removing it isn't something simple, unless it was fake in the first place.

I don't know.

Sodas
10-27-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm going to have to say, after reading the scene twice to make sure, that I'm positive it was Graendal. So she is toast, ihmo.

What is interesting is that delay of balefire. We always assumed it was instant every time. Not so much here. So how would someone who accidentally stubbled upon Asmo have time to cast it?

I think it was Jordan who said he planned to put the asmo reveal in the character's pov, so I do think this finally eliminates Graendal as a suspect. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Sarevok
10-27-2009, 03:05 PM
What is interesting is that delay of balefire. We always assumed it was instant every time. Not so much here. So how would someone who accidentally stubbled upon Asmo have time to cast it?
I don't think it's much different from other events. All weaves need some time to weave, if only a fraction of a second. I'd guess a weaving that includes as much of the One Power as Rand used, would take a little time to produces.

In the Asmo case, a tiny beam of BF would have been sufficient, since the killer only had to hit him. In the case of Graendal, he needed to BF the entire palace to be sure he got her.

Davian93
10-27-2009, 03:12 PM
I think the delay is as he said and add in the issue of using the CK key to make that large a stream.


While we're on balefire, does balefiring someone with the True Power prevent them from returning? I mean, if the DO's own power is used, can the DO then get around the paradox.

Obviously I ponder this in regards to Semi.

Personally, I think she's toast and that her final usage as a pawn was her punishment for disobeying orders...quite crafty, the DO is.

Terez
10-29-2009, 03:09 AM
Could the small clue be Bela's point about Lews Therin being eliminated? After all, there were people still arguing that Lews Therin did it, and RJ only ever eliminated two suspects in interview, and those are really the biggest bits of Lews Therin info we've ever gotten (besides the few characters eliminated in the books before, like Demandred and Semirhage).

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 06:10 AM
I agree, that if she is really dead, then it was a lousy way to get rid of her. But there is some irony here as well:

1) Whether by her hand or not, Moridin's goals of no peace with the Seanchan were achieved. And she was quite competent at the DO's tasks.

2) She claimed to herself that she understood the workings of convoluted minds, but it took Rand's mind to outthink her.

As for clues, I hate to mention it, but Avi did say she wished she saw the "shadow-souled" before Semirhage was blasted away.

Edit: it's time for a re-read LOL I found this when I was looking at Graendal's POV:

Originally posted by RJ/BS:

The Gathering Storm
Chapter Prologue - What The Storm Means
Only Moridin knew where to find her, now that Sammael was dead.

More irony LOL (that she thought she was hidden, since she knows or thinks she knows that Asmodean is dead for sure, and from FOH we know that Asmodean knew vaguely where she was, and why would she lie to herself or risk otherwise suffering Sammael's fate?)

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 06:01 PM
Could the small clue be Bela's point about Lews Therin being eliminated? After all, there were people still arguing that Lews Therin did it, and RJ only ever eliminated two suspects in interview, and those are really the biggest bits of Lews Therin info we've ever gotten (besides the few characters eliminated in the books before, like Demandred and Semirhage).
I suppose that could actually be a good point. I was the one who pointed it out, and even I didn't think of it in quite that way - possibly because I never thought that LTT was even a viable candidate regardless. But as you pointed out, that doesn't stop some people. ;)

Karlack25
10-30-2009, 12:57 AM
Hello my first post here.
As for Graendal i am pretty shure she is dead. If you re-read Rands conversation with Ramashalan before he was sent to Graendals layer. Not once did Rand mention to Ramashalan that he was sending him to go chat with Graendal. Ramashalan had no idea who he was actually going to talk to. Now we know she used compulsion on Ramashalan he would of told her of the conversation wiht Rand (Rand brings up this point himself). It was set up to sound as if Rand was just seding envoys around to gather support. She would had not expected Rand to come up with his little devious plan. Mostly due to how he dealt with the other Forsaken usally very dirrect attacks.

Terez
10-30-2009, 01:30 AM
Oops, I said "Lews Therin evidence", meant Asmodean. lol.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 01:42 AM
As for clues, I hate to mention it, but Avi did say she wished she saw the "shadow-souled" before Semirhage was blasted away.

LMAO, Aviendha will get her chance to see a "shadow-souled" alright; Asmodean.

Towers of Midnight, should have a section about the Black Tower, Caemlyn and Asmodean last was seen in the Palace. Elayne's home now.

Hmm...wonder if Asmodean would help Elayne out or not? Or if anyone would recall who Asmodean was during the invasion of Caemlyn? Now out on a far limb, maybe another chance to fight along side of the Light, Asmodean versus Taim?

Terez
10-30-2009, 01:45 AM
Felix, just because you were right about one thing does not mean that we are going to buy all your wacky theories! The RJ interview quote proves that Asmodean is not coming back. Deal with it.

tworiverswoman
10-30-2009, 02:04 AM
Because I'd like it to be true. Brandon's use of the word "small" could be ironic...as in, Rand using balefire on Graendal's domain...heh, small.

As in - "it ain't her".

Of course, this assumes Graendal's death...which remains suspect for the time being.I don't follow the logic here. Why does killing her mean "it ain't her?"

I can already hear someone clamoring "because balefire undoes the things done by the person it kills." Be reasonable. Asmodean died MONTHS ago, from all the little hints and tips given about the passage of time in this book. AT BEST, balefire will wipe out roughly 30-60 minutes of history. Amsalam isn't going to be coming back, either.

I was shocked at the simple deviousness of Rand's trick. It was really a brilliant plan. But how very, very odd it must now feel in Ramshalan's head right now.

Callandor
10-30-2009, 02:47 AM
Was Mat thinking about Moiraine in Finnland -- and how he surmised that Lanfear might be alive.

I think that's a nice way to remind people that she would've almost certainly been alive for some time beyond the doorway.

Not to mention, it helps to have your suspect still able to give a POV and confess to it.

As for Graendal still being alive, I don't buy it.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez
10-30-2009, 02:59 AM
I like the idea of it being Lanfear. Graendal is lame. Lanfear makes sense (despite not being able to back up that she would have been able to escape that fast). Aviendha is easier to argue, I think, and also cool. Slayer almost works for me. I don't think we knew enough about him then to be lead to him as a suspect, though, and he said all the clues were in.

I seem to be talking more and more about Asmodean lately. Must be something wrong with me.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 09:34 AM
Brandon told me that he put a small clue as to Asmodean's killer in this book. Let's find it folks.

Could it possibly be this section of text from Aviendha's pov:

Aviendha had heard about the events the night before, when he had been attacked by Semirhage. One of the Shadowsouled themselves; Aviendha wished she had seen the creature before she was killed. She shuddered.
Rand al'Thor had fought and won. Though he acted the fool much of the time, he was a skilled--and lucky--warrior. Who else alive could claim to have personally defeated as many of the Shadowsouled as he had? There was much honor in him.

So has Aviendha has not kill a 'Shadowsouled' darkfriend knowingly? Asmodean was not killed by Aviendha in Caemlym, as some speculate?

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 09:38 AM
Felix, just because you were right about one thing does not mean that we are going to buy all your wacky theories! The RJ interview quote proves that Asmodean is not coming back.

And what RJ interview quote is that, again Terez? Prove is always good, however the evidence for it maybe not as strong as you might think, too.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
How wonderfully happy Graendal's apparent death made me. Whether or not it turns out to be Slayer, Lanfear or Aviendha (or other), doesn't matter too much any more...just as long as it isn't Graendal.

But I agree...still not happy about the twists it would take to make Lanfear the killer...but that'd be great it we find out it was Lanfear. Wouldn't mind another pet theory, in essence, coming back from the dead.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 10:14 AM
"So has Aviendha has not kill a 'Shadowsouled' darkfriend knowingly? Asmodean was not killed by Aviendha in Caemlym, as some speculate?"

As much as I like to push Aviendha as a suspect, I doubt Brandon would take time to make this type of comment to suggest that she was not the killer - Aviendha isn't necessarily high on many people's lists.

In fact, you could say that this points to her devotion to killing Shadow-souled. She looks at Rand's killings as very honorable, and wishes she could have seen Semirhage before she was killed.

But a funny thought nonetheless.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Clearly the LTT personality Compelled Avi so that she would kill Asmodean.


Speaking of which, why didn't Rand just Compel Tuon to serve him? (at that point in the story he was dark enough to consider it probably) From her POV, it ALMOST sounded like a weak Compulsion instead of ta'veren effect but I doubt it was.

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 12:07 PM
Does Rand know the weave for compulsion? Did he ever ask Asmodean to teach it to him?

Davian93
10-30-2009, 12:09 PM
Does Rand know the weave for compulsion? Did he ever ask Asmodean to teach it to him?

I'm sure he does. He seemed to know a TON about it when explaining it to Nynaeve. I doubt Asmo was the source...it more likely came from the LTT memories.

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 12:32 PM
Then you're right. It only would have taken a small amount, not enough to destroy her. Just, "sign this treaty until after the last battle." Then poof, everything is ready!

Marie Curie 7
10-30-2009, 01:59 PM
And what RJ interview quote is that, again Terez? Prove is always good the had, however the evidence for it maybe not as strong as you might think, too.

Use the Interview Database!

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?
RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 05:44 PM
I like the idea of it being Lanfear. Graendal is lame. Lanfear makes sense (despite not being able to back up that she would have been able to escape that fast).
To me, one of the biggest points against Lanfear is that I just don't see Asmodean being anywhere near the top of her priority list if she managed to escape somehow. The "Lanfear-killer" theory pretty much necessitates Lanfear escaping nearly immediately, even considering time-dilation effects in 'Finnland - considering her state of mind when she was booted through the doorway, she would have gone after Rand or maaaaybe Aviendha at that point. The Asmodean theory necessitates a degree of cool-headedness that I just can't justify to myself.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Involves the wishes. We know she was held by the Finns, and it's almost incomprehensible to believe she was held...then escaped...then killed Asmodean...and then what? Was killed? And then stuffed into a new body?

If it wasn't the wishes, plus "didn't ask for life or leavetaking" then I don't see how it works.

And that doesn't even begin to address the "wishes" portion of that theory...which stretches credulity considering what we've learned of the Finns.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:21 PM
If it wasn't the wishes, plus "didn't ask for life or leavetaking" then I don't see how it works.
Plus, as I've mentioned, I can't believe her mental state at the time would've allowed for a wish of "kill Asmodean."

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 06:46 PM
First of all, wishes don't necessarily get granted as one asks them.

Second, Asmodean didn't tell Lanfear about Aviendha, something she understood immediately when she found out.

Third, Asmodean could have helped Rand after she was gone, something she would wanted to have stopped considering her recent Rand problems.

Likely, probably not, but not outside the realm of believability for me.

Now...how the Finns would help her accomplish such without holding her...not sure how they do that, when someone's wish takes them out of Finnland. As with Mat, he got out but forgot to ask for his life, so that makes sense...but what about someone that doesn't ask for either...

Hmm...seems to merit its own discussion. I'll start a thread.

Neilbert
10-30-2009, 06:47 PM
Asmodean knew that Lanfear planned on betraying the Dark One, and also knew that Lanfear had handed Rand the choden'kal.

He's a liability to her. If getting Rand to be her lover fails then he's a huge liability to her.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 07:00 PM
Asmodean knew that Lanfear planned on betraying the Dark One, and also knew that Lanfear had handed Rand the choden'kal.

He's a liability to her. If getting Rand to be her lover fails then he's a huge liability to her.
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. I just can't believe that she would have been cool and collected enough to think of such things when she just fell through a doorway while going "ARGH I KILL YOU LEWS THERIN AND YOUR LITTLE WHORE TOO ARGH!"

Hmm...seems to merit its own discussion. I'll start a thread.
ARGGHNONONONONO

tworiverswoman
10-30-2009, 07:35 PM
IF IT'S LANFEAR, which I too have trouble with -- then the only viable scenario works something like:

Lanfear: "You thrice-damned creatures!!!! You send me back! You send me back to him RIGHT NOW!! I'm going to KILLLLLLLL him! I don't care WHAT happens after that, just so I can see him DEAD!"

'Finns: "Wish granted ~evil snicker~" (aside: "But she didn't specify WHICH "him" now, did she? ~evil snicker~)

So Lanfear finds herself in an unfamiliar room, no idea where she is, a door opens suddenly in front of her and Asmodean steps through it, and reacts badly. OF COURSE she's going to kill him.

At which point the Finns use some kind of rubber-band to retrieve her and accidentally snag Asmo's body along with her.


And that last part is really the major stumbling block -- HOW did she wind up back in the ToG? Because we know she did -- she specifically said she was "held by the 'Finns" -- and that includes a number of unstated but obvious additional conditions.

I'm starting to lean toward Lanfear - but I'm still completely non-confident in ANY answer so far.


I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Graendal's death removed her from the list.

Terez
10-30-2009, 07:48 PM
Like Tam said, Tru, she might not have specifically wished to be free of the 'Finns, like Mat did. If she didn't, then why would they let her go?

But yeah, there are a lot of unsolved mysteries concerning Lanfear, not least her death and strength change.

Neilbert
10-30-2009, 09:03 PM
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. I just can't believe that she would have been cool and collected enough to think of such things when she just fell through a doorway while going "ARGH I KILL YOU LEWS THERIN AND YOUR LITTLE WHORE TOO ARGH!"

Eh, she's always had a temper, and it's gotten the better of her from time to time, but she tends to revert back to sociopath soon after.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:10 PM
IF IT'S LANFEAR, which I too have trouble with -- then the only viable scenario works something like:

Lanfear: "You thrice-damned creatures!!!! You send me back! You send me back to him RIGHT NOW!! I'm going to KILLLLLLLL him! I don't care WHAT happens after that, just so I can see him DEAD!"

'Finns: "Wish granted ~evil snicker~" (aside: "But she didn't specify WHICH "him" now, did she? ~evil snicker~)

So Lanfear finds herself in an unfamiliar room, no idea where she is, a door opens suddenly in front of her and Asmodean steps through it, and reacts badly. OF COURSE she's going to kill him.

At which point the Finns use some kind of rubber-band to retrieve her and accidentally snag Asmo's body along with her.


And that last part is really the major stumbling block -- HOW did she wind up back in the ToG? Because we know she did -- she specifically said she was "held by the 'Finns" -- and that includes a number of unstated but obvious additional conditions.

I'm starting to lean toward Lanfear - but I'm still completely non-confident in ANY answer so far.


I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Graendal's death removed her from the list.

I was just about to suggest the exact same scenario with Lanfear. Good thought. It does make some small sense I think. Asmo wasn't the one she was after in Camelyn, Rand was.

~goes to ponder it~

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 04:17 AM
The Gathering Storm
Chapter Prologue - What The Storm Means
Only Moridin knew where to find her, now that Sammael was dead.

This seems to be the small clue. Especially after reading this thread and all of your thoughts on Graendal. Sammael died after Asmodean. Only Asmodean, Sammael, and Moridin knew where she was. Asmodean is dead, and Graendal knows it. Sammael is dead, and Graendal knows it. Only Moridin knows. I think rather than disproving Graendal as the killer it gives evidence the other direction. As Tru said how does her death exonerate her?

Isabel
10-31-2009, 04:30 AM
This seems to be the small clue. Especially after reading this thread and all of your thoughts on Graendal. Sammael died after Asmodean. Only Asmodean, Sammael, and Moridin knew where she was. Asmodean is dead, and Graendal knows it. Sammael is dead, and Graendal knows it. Only Moridin knows. I think rather than disproving Graendal as the killer it gives evidence the other direction. As Tru said how does her death exonerate her?

Because Brandon is going to put who killed asmo in one of the scenes. So if Graendal is dead, it's harder to find a natural moment in which to put it.

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 04:41 AM
Because Brandon is going to put who killed asmo in one of the scenes. So if Graendal is dead, it's harder to find a natural moment in which to put it.


Harder but not impossible and by no means a confirmation of her innocence.

Isabel
10-31-2009, 04:47 AM
Harder but not impossible and by no means a confirmation of her innocence.

It's not a confirmation of her innocense. But as you said, it makes it harder, so less likely ;)
Before this a lot of people were thinking that the killer might be revealed in TGS, since we knew asmo's killer would be revealed in one of the three books. But now Graendal might be dead, so who is going to reveal or say that Graendal killed asmo? It makes it harder.

Lironah
10-31-2009, 12:03 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on here. You mean to tell me nobody else saw it?

I didn't even consider that a SMALL clue! It was like sirens going off in my head! Go back and read that part where Shaidar Haran appears out of nowhere and tell me that look on Semhirage's face wasn't the same one Asmodean had when he died. I have no further doubts, people.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 12:06 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on here. You mean to tell me nobody else saw it?

I didn't even consider that a SMALL clue! It was like sirens going off in my head! Go back and read that part where Shaidar Haran appears out of nowhere and tell me that look on Semhirage's face wasn't the same one Asmodean had when he died. I have no further doubts, people.

Interesting thought. TO the masses: Is there any reason/quote/interview that precludes SH from being the killer?

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 12:08 PM
Interesting thought. TO the masses: Is there any reason/quote/interview that precludes SH from being the killer?

You mean besides the glaringly obvious one of not being introduced to him as Shaidar Haran until after Asmodean's death???????

Davian93
10-31-2009, 12:09 PM
You mean besides the glaringly obvious one of not being introduced to him as Shaidar Haran until after Asmodean's death???????

That's exactly what I was asking. I was 99% sure SH couldn't be it but I didn't remember why. Thanks JWB.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 12:11 PM
Welcome!

Okay - I'll go take a look...

But I'll admit - That would have to mean that it was an ordered hit by the Dark One...and we know that the DO couldn't have transmigrated even if he wanted to (from a signing reply) and the How and Where reply, not sure how that would fit (from a signing)...which makes me doubt Shaidar Haran...but I will take a look.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 12:12 PM
More and more, the signs point to it being Lanfear...and I simply don't like that. There's too much forcing of the issue for it to be her.

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 12:25 PM
hey I have to do something to retain my quotemaster title. people will think I've gone soft in my old age ;) besides it honestly took me a second to remember why I had excluded him as a suspect as well. ;) :cool:

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 12:35 PM
More and more, the signs point to it being Lanfear...and I simply don't like that. There's too much forcing of the issue for it to be her.

Granted I have missed several years of WoT posting, but I fail to see how it could possibly be Lanfear without some really twisted reasoning. I read the "I want him (who?) dead" Finn scenario and that doesnt do it for me by a longshot.

We saw her fall through the doorway before Asmo's hit. We know she died. It stretches reason to think that she came OUT of finnland, killed asmo, went back to finnland and died.

Neilbert
10-31-2009, 12:40 PM
Why on earth would she go back to finnland?

We know she died.

Moiraine didn't die, and Lanfear certainly knew more about the finn than her. Lanfear would be less likely to break one of their rules. If Moiraine wasn't killed by the finn, Lanfear almost certainly wasn't.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 12:50 PM
But let's move this discussion - gotta love the resurgent Lanfear Killed Asmodean discussion.

I'm starting a new Thread.

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 12:51 PM
Why on earth would she go back to finnland?



Moiraine didn't die, and Lanfear certainly knew more about the finn than her. Lanfear would be less likely to break one of their rules. If Moiraine wasn't killed by the finn, Lanfear almost certainly wasn't.

Ok. I rephrase. In order for Asmo to recognize his killer and for that killer to be Lanfear, Lanfear's original body would have to have escaped Finnland (since Asmo would not have recognized Cyndane...unless one wants to stretch even further and say that Asmo knew the original Cyndane from some previous and unmentioned contact) - offscreen - and then disposed of - again offscreen - so that Cyndane could be.

Lironah
10-31-2009, 12:59 PM
All right, since nobody else sees it, I'll present my full reasoning. For the record, I never suspected SH before and have not been following the theories on why he can't have done it, so please, if you're going to provide refuting evidence, cite it if you can so that I can take a look too.

Motive: Shaidar Haran has been sent several times to punish or chastise the Forsaken before. (Forgive me for lack of book citations - I'm at work right now.) He's the only direct means we've ever seen the DO use to punish the Forsaken, aside from other Forsaken of course.

Means: From the Semhirage incident, we can see that SH has the ability to incapacitate a channeler without alerting others. He can also appear pretty much anywhere he wants. I think it's safe to say that he could also dispose of the body.

Timing: The other Forsaken knew that Semhirage had been captured, and could report it to the DO. There were also darkfriends who knew where she was being imprisoned and had the means to share that information. In Asmodean's case, the only one who knew that Rand had held him prisoner was Lanfear, and she put him there. Obviously she wasn't going to undermine her own work and tel on him. Rand also severed some sort of link to the DO, possibly meaning that the DO had no way to track Asmodean.

But Asmodean WAS found eventually. Why? My guess is, because Lanfear had been yanked back from death by the DO, and got it out of her then. From there, it would be a simple thing to send a DF with Jasin Natael's description and locate him in Rand's company.

Other factors: The argument against any of Rand's friends is trust. Most of them would have told him what they had done, if not come to him first. The argument against other Forsaken is vanity. Most of them would have bragged about it, and we haven't heard that either. The argument against Lews Therin is that he still grumbles that he SHOULD have killed him. The argument against a random darkfriend, is that why would Asmodean have been so afraid of them? Also, the name Shaidar Haran is certainly long enough to want to replace it with 'you' when suddenly confronted and panicking.

jason wolfbrother
10-31-2009, 01:03 PM
The biggest holes with Shaidar Haran as the killer imho.

1)How did Asmodean recognize Shaidar Haran? He never met him. Neither did we before Asmodean's demise. Shaidar Haran first appears onscreen as Shaidar Haran in the LoC Prologue. Demandred meets him at Shayol Ghul. We had met Fades earlier in the books that seemed to act oddly for a Fade, smiling, humor, more cunning, but nothing indicated they were Shaidar Haran until much much later in the series. As of the end of FoH, when Asmodean was killed, we had no idea even of the existence of Shaidar Haran Superfade .

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:07 PM
The biggest holes with Shaidar Haran as the killer imho.

1)How did Asmodean recognize Shaidar Haran? He never met him. Neither did we before Asmodean's demise. Shaidar Haran first appears onscreen as Shaidar Haran in the LoC Prologue. Demandred meets him at Shayol Ghul. We had met Fades earlier in the books that seemed to act oddly for a Fade, smiling, humor, more cunning, but nothing indicated they were Shaidar Haran until much much later in the series. As of the end of FoH, when Asmodean was killed, we had no idea even of the existence of Shaidar Haran Superfade .

Add: None of the other forsaken recognize Shadar Haran until "formal introductions" had been made. In order for "You? No!" to make sense, we would have to believe that Shadar Haran introduced himself offscreen to Asmodean before his confrontation with Rand - 1+ books before we the readers are introduced with to the character.

Neilbert
10-31-2009, 02:33 PM
Ok. I rephrase. In order for Asmo to recognize his killer and for that killer to be Lanfear, Lanfear's original body would have to have escaped Finnland

Yup.

Then something tragic has to happen to Lanfear. Only, we know something tragic happened to Lanfear, we just don't know exactly what.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 02:34 PM
Lanfear Killed Asmodean - Discussion

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2509

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:47 PM
RJ said several times that all the clues we needed to figure it out were included at the time of Asmodean's death, at the end of The Fires of Heaven. Shaidar Haran wasn't introduced at all until the next book (unless you count version 0.1).

greatwolf
11-01-2009, 06:27 AM
RJ said several times that all the clues we needed to figure it out were included at the time of Asmodean's death, at the end of The Fires of Heaven. Shaidar Haran wasn't introduced at all until the next book (unless you count version 0.1).

That would knock out graendal and most of the other forsaken who were still offscreen by then.
I dont know that quote though.

Jokeslayer
11-01-2009, 09:02 AM
That would knock out graendal and most of the other forsaken who were still offscreen by then.
I dont know that quote though.

For the quote:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_52cdtgcjw8


A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/ACOS_signings.html)


Q: Who killed Asmodean? (Right. Like he'll tell us). Anyway ask if the clues to figure it out are all included up to The Fires of Heaven.
RJ: RAFO. All clues are included up to The Fires of Heaven.

(there are other examples, that seemed the clearest)

I don't see why it couldn't be one of the Forsaken that hadn't been on screen as long as we know they're around.
EDIT: quote tags

jason wolfbrother
11-01-2009, 09:38 AM
actually that quote is the one that cemented Graendal in my mind. She is introduced to us the reader in FoH. That is the first time we actually see her in action.

Crispin's Crispian
11-01-2009, 11:41 AM
I'll have to dig it up, but there was a section from Gawyn's POV where he's reminiscing about the Palace gardens. It might be some kind of clue just because it's in the same exact area where all this stuff happened.

Otherwise, I think JWB might have it, or Light-forbid, Lanfear. ~goes to be sick~

nameless
11-01-2009, 05:27 PM
The whole "night of the living dead" curse on Hinderstap reminded me a lot of the time Rand got caught in Fain's infinite loop trap in TGH. Could that be the clue? Perhaps the reason Asmodean is beyond resurrection is that Fain pulled him out of the pattern and into an infinite recursion where he relives his own death over and over again.

Terez
11-01-2009, 05:43 PM
haha, that's stretching things a bit!

Also, RJ has only eliminated two suspects through interview: Rand and Fain. I'd dig up that quote, because he explains why it wasn't Fain, but my internet is being slow right now. It's in my interview database (click my sig link, then interview database, then The Forsaken).

Davian93
11-01-2009, 05:46 PM
The whole "night of the living dead" curse on Hinderstap reminded me a lot of the time Rand got caught in Fain's infinite loop trap in TGH. Could that be the clue? Perhaps the reason Asmodean is beyond resurrection is that Fain pulled him out of the pattern and into an infinite recursion where he relives his own death over and over again.

Honestly, was there even a point to the entire Hinderstap subplot with Mat? It seemed pretty pointless given everything.

Jokeslayer
11-01-2009, 05:51 PM
haha, that's stretching things a bit!

Also, RJ has only eliminated two suspects through interview: Rand and Fain. I'd dig up that quote, because he explains why it wasn't Fain, but my internet is being slow right now. It's in my interview database (click my sig link, then interview database, then The Forsaken).

By coincidence I read this quote earlier. It just says Fain wasn't in the right place but he would've done it if he could (but he didn't)

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 05:56 PM
Honestly, was there even a point to the entire Hinderstap subplot with Mat? It seemed pretty pointless given everything.
Yeah, I would've prefered that he'd skipped Mat's chapters all together. I'd liked it much better had we met Mat in Caemlyn in ToM.

Terez
11-01-2009, 06:05 PM
I think the point was to show us (and Mat) how bad the Dark One's touch is getting.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 06:10 PM
I think the point was to show us (and Mat) how bad the Dark One's touch is getting.

We hadn't seen enough of that? I mean, we needed an entire two chapters devoted to a crazy Groundhog Day town of killing?

It really served no purpose. I'd rather of had a chapter of him reaching Caemlyn and meeting back up with Elayne & Co.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 06:29 PM
We hadn't seen enough of that? I mean, we needed an entire two chapters devoted to a crazy Groundhog Day town of killing?

It really served no purpose. I'd rather of had a chapter of him reaching Caemlyn and meeting back up with Elayne & Co.

Zombie gorefest...

... or Elayne bathing and choosing dresses...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 06:35 PM
Zombie gorefest...

... or Elayne bathing and choosing dresses...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I was thinking of maybe having something that was relevant to the plot instead of either of those options.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 06:38 PM
We needed him to meet Verin though, something tells me that is not a small plot line there...

Davian93
11-01-2009, 06:43 PM
We needed him to meet Verin though, something tells me that is not a small plot line there...

That could have easily been done without the Zombie Town foray.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 07:15 PM
We hadn't seen enough of that? I mean, we needed an entire two chapters devoted to a crazy Groundhog Day town of killing?

It really served no purpose. I'd rather of had a chapter of him reaching Caemlyn and meeting back up with Elayne & Co.
Did we really need Perrin's trip to So Habor?

Mat's trip to zombie adventureland is the same kind of peek into how the approach of T'G touches the world.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 08:18 PM
I actually really liked it. The scenes also showed us how Mat has really been able to use his luck to his advantage almost flawlessly

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Zombie gorefest...

... or Elayne bathing and choosing dresses...
Why not combine the two?

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 09:04 PM
Why not combine the two?

Ask terez. She's the slashfic expert.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:06 PM
Ask terez. She's the slashfic expert.

Saw VII: The Royal Palace

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:07 PM
Saw VII: The Royal Palace
Twice Dawns the Dead?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:14 PM
Twice Dawns the Dead?

Mat Cauthon Vs. The Army of Darkness

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:16 PM
You know, this was a somewhat interesting and serious thread at one point.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:20 PM
You know, this was a somewhat interesting and serious thread at one point.
And I'm sure it will be again.

Terez, meet the Theoryland Threadjackers! Threadjackers, Terez.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:20 PM
And I'm sure it will be again.

Terez, meet the Theoryland Threadjackers! Threadjackers, Terez.

Tried to Rep you for that..can't unfortunately.

kivo
11-01-2009, 10:11 PM
Granted I have missed several years of WoT posting, but I fail to see how it could possibly be Lanfear without some really twisted reasoning. I read the "I want him (who?) dead" Finn scenario and that doesnt do it for me by a longshot.

We saw her fall through the doorway before Asmo's hit. We know she died. It stretches reason to think that she came OUT of finnland, killed asmo, went back to finnland and died.

I suspect Slayer actually did the deed, but Lanfear ordered the hit. Even if she hadn't already orderd the command by the time Lanfear ended up in Finnland, Slayer can enter/exit the Tower of Ghenjei.

I think this will all be sorted in Towers of Midnight since a visit to the Tower of Ghenjei will take place and bring up events that happened close to the time frame of Asmo's death.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:31 PM
It appears as though Slayer can access Ghenjei, but he might have just been trying to lure Perrin in there. I can think of no reasonable connection between Slayer and Ghenjei other than that.

Calharn
11-02-2009, 02:22 AM
I've always wondered what the wishes of Lanfear and Mor would be in Finnland...

The time line given to us for reincarnation by the DO in previous books leads us to discount lanfear being the one who could kill Asmodean... but what if either one of their wishes was to kill Asmodean. Moraine could trade her freedom to remove him from rand's side. On the other hand Lanfear might trade her life to get revenge on Asmodean who was to weak to see her plan through (even if she meant to use him the whole time).

Knowing the extent of the finns to grant wishes it may not be out of their power to allow quick recesses from their world in exchange for their own motives.

All in all though I think the G babe is toast. Rand was more ruthless than ever LTT was and Gren would never think him or his reborn self capable of such actions....

First attempt at a response huge gaps in the logic but thought i'd throw it out there.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:36 AM
Welcome to Theoryland, Calharn. :)

From what I understand, the Moirainedidit theory is pretty popular at Dragonmount, but I can't recall if anyone argues it here. We don't really discuss Asmodean all that often, in comparison to other boards - at least, not in the last several years. I think there's a resurgence in interest because we know it will be revealed soon.

Calharn
11-02-2009, 03:08 AM
Thanks for the welcome Terez. I've stalked the boards long enough to have some basic knowledge but I had not remembered seeing that one line.

I still think The Lanfear option viable since she 1)Would be relatively certain of her rebirth and 2) Revenge is her thing. If she wasn't under Moridin's thumb I think she would have already made her move against rand. But why not gain a quick death, revenge and freedom from the finn all in one shot? This seems like more of the thought process of Lanfear.

My Moraine thought was more to flush out the question of can the Finn grant moments of freedom from finnland rather than a serious backing of Moraine being the culprit. I can't see Asmodean reacting that way to seeing Moraine in a closet.

Lanfear however is obsessed with power and always blames others for her failures/misfortunes.... ie. Illyena for stealing LTT. Why not kill off Asmodean as a quick release?

Oh and for those who say Asmodean wouldn't recognize Lanfear in her new body lets remember she is very proud of herself and would certainly make use of Mirror of the mists to make sure Asmodean knew who was killing him. Just a thought I could never post when I saw that argument used (which was often).

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 03:11 AM
not to be too obnoxious about it, but it seems super obvious in every way that the witch is dead.

1-Rand was influenced by the True Power and I don't think she had time to know it yet. that made him much more ruthless than she could have expected.
2-just because the envoy came to her place did not mean that she was found, just that Rand was getting closer.
3-she couldn't really know that he would trust an AS who would be able to recognize compulsion in a brain to check for him.
4-she has in the past mentioned that she would rather not have to abandon her prizes unless necessary, and she would not have perceived/suspected that attack.

what was this thread again? Oh yeah, asmo.... I don't buy Lanfear doing it. hint in this book? I think it was Verin.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:35 AM
Verin was in the Two Rivers at the time and hadn't yet learned Traveling. Also, RJ said we had all the clues we needed to figure it out by the time he was killed. There was absolutely nothing pointing to Verin.

Were you being serious?

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 03:57 AM
no i was not. long ago I had very well reasoned arguments for who I thought it most likely was and I even posted them in various places, but I've quite forgotten what they once were, having not visited asmo for a while. I suspect for some reason that I may have actually thought it was Lanfear but I don't want to commit myself until I revisit the facts. and reexamine this book for clues.

Jokeslayer
11-02-2009, 06:30 AM
Moraine could trade her freedom to remove him from rand's side.

That doesn't fit with her letter to Rand from ch. 53 of TFoH, specifically Lastly, be wary too of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always.

Personally, I don't care too much who killed Asmo, as long as it wasn't Moiraine.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 01:19 PM
It appears as though Slayer can access Ghenjei, but he might have just been trying to lure Perrin in there. I can think of no reasonable connection between Slayer and Ghenjei other than that.

If Slayer can go in there, then he probably already dealt with the Finns. Maybe he got a wish granted for free access to their domain or something.

Ozymandias
11-02-2009, 01:28 PM
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Rand is quite clear. He believes Graendal will know it is a ruse by him. Then, she would have to ask, if he knew she was there, why didn't he attack? Because he thinks that she will run if he attacks. Therefore, he sent his envoy, to check if I was "in the building". Why would he do that? Because he planned a large enough attack that would prevent me from escaping. What is he waiting for? He is waiting for his servant to return whom he will check for signs that I was there. So, if I want him to pull off his attack, I have to add compulsion to this servants mind...or better yet, I can pretend to be his servant, Mask of Mirrors, inverted threads, fake compulsion, and find out what his real plans are, he'd never expect me not to run

It should be impossible for her to get away with it. She'd have to be embracing the Source to hold the illusion. Sure, she can invert her weaves and hide from Nyn, BUT we know that male channellers can feel when females are embracing the Source. Inverting shouldn't disguise the fact that the Source is being touched.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 01:33 PM
It should be impossible for her to get away with it. She'd have to be embracing the Source to hold the illusion. Sure, she can invert her weaves and hide from Nyn, BUT we know that male channellers can feel when females are embracing the Source. Inverting shouldn't disguise the fact that the Source is being touched.

The AS guarding the harbors didn't sense Leane when she was turning the chain into Cuendillar...due to inverting the flows. They only knew someone was there due to the change in the chain itself. Inverting hides the Source completely.

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 01:34 PM
If Slayer can go in there, then he probably already dealt with the Finns. Maybe he got a wish granted for free access to their domain or something.

I always assumed he ran up to the tower, and "vanished" by stepping out of TAR or something, in order to give Perrin the impression he entered, so that Perrin would try to get in, and get trapped.

Regarding the *Finns. They are not evil, as the DO is evil. What happens to them, the DO gets free? Do they have any reason to want to prevent that from happening?

Ozymandias
11-02-2009, 02:54 PM
The AS guarding the harbors didn't sense Leane when she was turning the chain into Cuendillar...due to inverting the flows. They only knew someone was there due to the change in the chain itself. Inverting hides the Source completely.

I'm not sure it works the same way. They didn't sense her weaving because she inverted it. They probably weren't close enough to feel her touching the Source, and even if they were, it almost certainly functions in a different sense, because the male reaction to female channelers seems much more... I don't know, it seems to be some sort of physical or biological reaction which doesn't equate to the mental knowledge female channelers have of one another.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm not sure it works the same way. They didn't sense her weaving because she inverted it. They probably weren't close enough to feel her touching the Source, and even if they were, it almost certainly functions in a different sense, because the male reaction to female channelers seems much more... I don't know, it seems to be some sort of physical or biological reaction which doesn't equate to the mental knowledge female channelers have of one another.

Well, if inverting hides the "glow" of channeling for other females, why not the "goosebumps" as well?

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 04:53 PM
no i was not. long ago I had very well reasoned arguments for who I thought it most likely was and I even posted them in various places, but I've quite forgotten what they once were, having not visited asmo for a while. I suspect for some reason that I may have actually thought it was Lanfear but I don't want to commit myself until I revisit the facts. and reexamine this book for clues.

The cast of likely suspects of who killed Asmodean include:


Graendal
Slayer
Shaidar Haran, "Hand of the Dark"
Aviendha



Who's not likely at all?

Verin <--in Two Rivers at the time.
Lanfear <-- entered *Finns with Moiraine, Asmodean died after this event.



If Graendal actually did the deed, of killing Asmodean in Caemlyn as many think; then he just may not of died at all now, considering that Graendal was Balefired to death by Rand in tGS. It's another possible twist on the story to satisfy Brandon the author just maybe...Asmodean alive. ;)

Jokeslayer
11-02-2009, 05:12 PM
If Graendal actually did the deed, of killing Asmodean in Caemlyn as many think; then he just may not of died at all now, considering that Graendal was Balefired to death by Rand in tGS. It's another possible twist on the story to satisfy Brandon the author just maybe...Asmodean alive. ;)

Every time you post this singularly unlikely piece of garbage I punch myself in the face. Just thought you might like to know.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 06:06 PM
Every time you post this singularly unlikely piece of garbage I punch myself in the face. Just thought you might like to know.

I guess you must really hate reading Mat and Aviendha's characters in the series, as they both died and came back to life by the very same mechanism RJ invented. :p

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 06:19 PM
I guess you must really hate reading Mat and Aviendha's characters in the series, as they both died and came back to life by the very same mechanism RJ invented. :p
Here's a curveball for you, Felix. What would be the point of Asmodean returning? What possible purpose to the plot could his character serve?

Jokeslayer
11-02-2009, 06:42 PM
I guess you must really hate reading Mat and Aviendha's characters in the series, as they both died and came back to life by the very same mechanism RJ invented. :p

Yeah, it's exactly the same thing. There's no difference whatsoever. None at all.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 08:29 PM
so did anybody notice any clue in this book? there are too many pages here....

The only clue I can think of is Graendal dying. I don't quite see why that should disqualify her, but obviously it was either her or Slayer, and I lean towards Slayer.

thanks for the refresh Felix.... as to Asmo getting retro'd back... You could make an argument that maybe a few months of Graendal's direct actions got burned away, but Asmo died years ago, didn't he?

JSUCamel
11-02-2009, 08:43 PM
so did anybody notice any clue in this book? there are too many pages here....

The only clue I can think of is Graendal dying. I don't quite see why that should disqualify her, but obviously it was either her or Slayer, and I lean towards Slayer.

thanks for the refresh Felix.... as to Asmo getting retro'd back... You could make an argument that maybe a few months of Graendal's direct actions got burned away, but Asmo died years ago, didn't he?

IIRC, most of what happens between Path of Daggers and Crossroads of Twilight takes place in a matter of days, not months. I think the official timeline of Asmo's death is only three or four months ago.

Terez
11-02-2009, 08:48 PM
It's been about a year. Don't know exactly because the Chronology isn't updated yet, but it's very close to being exactly a year.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 09:14 PM
Bela killed Asmo for cheating on her with Tai'dashar.

I personally think Graedal is dead. As far as the whole "hiding herself as whatshisface" idea, didn't Nyn touch him to check for the compulsions? Most AS touch when healing, and Nyn tends to do so. MoM gets killed by touch, as I recall...

Lanfear: "You thrice-damned creatures!!!! You send me back! You send me back to him RIGHT NOW!! I'm going to KILLLLLLLL him! I don't care WHAT happens after that, just so I can see him DEAD!"

'Finns: "Wish granted ~evil snicker~" (aside: "But she didn't specify WHICH "him" now, did she? ~evil snicker~)

So Lanfear finds herself in an unfamiliar room, no idea where she is, a door opens suddenly in front of her and Asmodean steps through it, and reacts badly. OF COURSE she's going to kill him.

At which point the Finns use some kind of rubber-band to retrieve her and accidentally snag Asmo's body along with her.That's the same scenario that's been plaguing us since the Lanfear idea first sprouted its grubby little claws. And years later STILL seems as convoluted as Neon Genesis Evangelion...Except NGE is actually a pretty good watch. This most certainly would not be.

Also, didn't RJ mention that relatively few people get it right? That kinda kills both Graendal and Lanny due to those being the by far most popular ones...if I'm remembering correctly, that is.

Felix, you really believe that Asmo is not dead? That BS would do something like fanfic him back in for some reason? We know balefire doesn't work the way you seem to want it to...and we have Word of Creator that he is stone cold dead...so hard that the DO couldn't bring him back...So what are you basing this theory on? Your crazy Verin Compulsed Masema theory had more meat on it...

Oh, and Terez, I wouldn't say Felix was necessarily "right" about Verin being Black. While Felix was technically right about her being in the black ajah, he was most certainly wrong about her being the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. (overexaggeration: mine) I'd say very very few people got her right at all...even the "purplers" weren't really correct. I think classifying her as an "enigma within a enigma" works best.

Oh, and I LOVED Mat's chapters. It was world-building with a bit of humor, more "Lord of the Grave" refs [zombies] (and a double point in that it was actually the pattern, not the DO recreating them each morn...shows even more pattern unraveling tidbits...and you could feasibly pull this into WH's "the Great Lace is coming to a point crashing together" idea, if you wanted to.), and advancing the plot a bit with Verin's showing up. Let's not forget the maturing that Mat is showing due to being all "husbandy". Yeah, it's slow to come, but it shows that he's getting there. These chapters most certainly were not wasted space...and most CERTAINLY gave a nice breath of humor and fresh air in an otherwise dark and depressing novel. (Sad when your humor is given when an entire town is forced to zombie attack each other in a horrifyingly...erm...horrifyingly terrible way. Couldn't think of what to put there, brain = dead.)

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 09:27 PM
Verin was teh awesome. that is all.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Verin was teh awesome. that is all.Agreed. 100%

Terez
11-02-2009, 09:47 PM
Terez, I wouldn't say Felix was necessarily "right" about Verin being Black.
lol, I am well aware how wrong he was.

nameless
11-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Well, if inverting hides the "glow" of channeling for other females, why not the "goosebumps" as well?

Masking the glow does cover up the goosebumps as well. We know this from Knife of Dreams. When Rand's party is approaching the fake Seanchan delegation he suggests that Cadsuane and Nynaeve embrace the source, and they tell him they already have.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 10:22 PM
Felix, you really believe that Asmo is not dead?

It is a distinct possibility that Asmodean does in fact live now, considering the situation of "how" Graendal was removed from the Pattern by Rand.

Mat and Aviendha came back to life when Rahvin was removed from the Pattern, using the very same mechanism, as I have suggested here with Asmodean.

Of course, if you believe someone else killed Asmodean, this possibility would not exist: Asmodean living in the present.


That BS would do something like fanfic him back in for some reason? We know balefire doesn't work the way you seem to want it to...and we have Word of Creator that he is stone cold dead...so hard that the DO couldn't bring him back...So what are you basing this theory on? Your crazy Verin Compulsed Masema theory had more meat on it...

RJ did not say what your implying, Matoyak. Like any good Aes Sedai, what did RJ specifically say? Terez's quote of RJ on this topic is vague side.

Balefire removes the actions of individuals upon the Pattern, which can be seen when Rahvin was Balefire in the TAR by Rand.


Oh, and Terez, I wouldn't say Felix was necessarily "right" about Verin being Black. While Felix was technically right about her being in the black ajah, he was most certainly wrong about her being the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. (overexaggeration: mine)

Poppycock! Your putting words I never wrote to my reputation: "Root of All Evil"? Isn't the Dark One, the Chosen and Mordeth among others, the main roots of Evil, within the story? Even Rand's himself as expressed through his actions in tGS a type of sin, or evil...Verin did many wrongs, but she never was the root of all evil. :rolleyes:


Yet I was correct unlike the masses here at Theoryland, that Verin Sedai was in fact an Black Ajah. Verin did do evil things, yet she did turn on the whole Black Ajah in the end (which I did miss). I did correctly however foresee Verin Sedai's character ending with the ending of the Black Ajah storyline though, for what's its worth.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 10:35 PM
You missed a key phrase in my post. Just an FYI.

And balefire doens't remove what looks to be an entire years worth of time. That would unravel the pattern then and there, almost assuredly. Think about all that Graendal has done since the supposed "graendal killed Asmo" (a theory not yet proven in the slightest). ALL of that would have been undone. Yeah. Not a chance.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 11:15 PM
And balefire doens't remove what looks to be an entire years worth of time.

It's actually almost one year to date, the scene where Rand, Nynaeve, Min believe Graendal was balefired, to the date of Asmodean's mysterious disappearance in Caemlyn, according to the eWoT Timeline (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/).

I imagine Weird Harold would have a better grip on the time difference particulars up to KoD, when Asmodean disappeared saying "You!".

That would unravel the pattern then and there, almost assuredly.

I fully realized this, and yet did Graendal cause all the chaos and destruction within Arad Doman directly? No.

Think about all that Graendal has done since the supposed "graendal killed Asmo" (a theory not yet proven in the slightest). ALL of that would have been undone.

No, I doubt all would be undone as indirect action of others who did damage should still exist. Balefire removes direct actions, yet Rand still remembers who Graendal was, even though supposedly she never existed in the Pattern now. Yes, Balefire is a strange beast and mechanism...sort of a giant eraser with limitations.

Graendal is though one of the very top suspects of who did have an opportunity, motive, and desire to kill Asmodean in Caemlyn too. Very few other suspects are good candidates...maybe the Hand of the Dark or Slayer?

Sephy-Stabbity
11-02-2009, 11:34 PM
This is just something crazy thought up at 12.30 in the night, but did Moiraine ever get wishes granted by the wishFinn as far as we know?

I was thinking maybe after she got to Finnland, she might've been allowed to make 3 wishes somehow. She maybe wished all three as some kind of advantages the Light would have, and one of them was Asmodean being killed, as Moiraine might've known already that Asmodean could be a threat once Lanfear's weave was removed.

Ill have to research more to see if this actually fits with the Wot canon tho :D

Edit: It would also explain why Moi is stuck in Finnland, if she used up all 3 wishes to give Rand and the Light an advantage. Now if only I could see what the other two advantages are.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 11:49 PM
...Asmodean's mysterious disappearance in Caemlyn, according to the eWoT Timeline (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/).

I imagine Weird Harold would have a better grip on the time difference particulars up to KoD, when Asmodean disappeared saying "You!".

the link to the Chronology site at encyclopedia WOT is out of date. the Chronology's new link is http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

547 Choren-21 Sep-21 52-56 Moiraine and Lanfear disappear through the redstone doorframe ter'angreal, presumed dead. Egwene and Aviendha injured. Rand balefires Rahvin in Caemlyn. Nynaeve captures Moghedien in Tel'aran'rhiod. Asmodean dies. Davram Bashere arrives in Caemlyn chasing Mazrim Taim. Rand announces an amnesty for all men who can channel.

766 Adar-15 Apr-27 Ep (?) Tuon arrives back in Ebou Dar and shows Elbar's head to Suroth. Suroth is made da'covale and given to the Deathwatch Guard.
Ep (?) Pevara and a party of Red Ajah Travel to the Black Tower. Taim gives permission for them to bond Asha'man as Warders.


so, 766-547 == 219 days, plus however many days pass in tGS before the Balefire.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 12:06 AM
I fully realized this, and yet did Graendal cause all the chaos and destruction within Arad Doman directly? No.
Here's one for you, Felix. If Graendal had been balefired back a year, Rodel Ituralde would suddenly not be working with Rand any longer. Why? Because Graendal directly met with him and wrote him letters to convince him to fight the Seanchan in the name of his king. If that campaign had not occurred, Rand wouldn't have needed to recruit him in order to bring peace to Arad Doman.

Since Ituralde is still in the Borderlands, working for Rand, Graendal cannot have been balefired back a year. QED.

The Seeker
11-03-2009, 01:30 AM
Well after hearing there was a small clue I thought about it and the first possiblity that popped in my head is in the prologue. Moridin allowed her to attend the meeting as a reward. At first i assumed it was for causing chaos but it seems like a big reward for doing something that they should all be doing in the first place.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 05:18 PM
Bump!

Don't tell me we've forgotten about this already?

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 11:13 PM
Don't tell me we've forgotten about this already?
Forgot about what?

LewsLewsLewsLewsLewsAsmoLewsLewsLews...

Terez
11-04-2009, 01:43 AM
You do realize there's a big huge faction full of people that don't give a shit about Asmodean right?

lucky with dice
11-04-2009, 04:45 AM
i've never really had much to do with the asmo discussion, simply because i'm not really sure.

if i was to voice an opinion though it would be that he was killed by the finn. if he has been through the doorway he would recognise them and probably fear them.

that leaves the question of who requested him dead.

would lanfear have bothered or would she have been ranting to let her out (just like mat did) but neglected to mention that she wanted out immediately.

moiraine i suspect would have asked for things more logically (she had used the other doorway and the rings had told her what was coming so it is viable that she knew what to expect when she went through this doorway)

she may well have asked for rand to be kept safe from those who mean him harm or even more specifically from asmo.

one question that this raises though, if moiraine knew a bit about the doorways then she knew that a person could only go through once. why didn't she go through earlier then she wouldn't have gone to finnland when she dragged lanfear through the door

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:49 AM
Can't be the Finn, cause we have no reason to believe that Asmodean has seen them before, and since RJ said we have enough evidence to figure it out, that one goes out the window.

Also, Moiraine saw her future, and obviously it included going to Finnland. If she had tried to change that future, she'd have jeopardized everything.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 09:21 AM
You do realize there's a big huge faction full of people that don't give a shit about Asmodean right?

You do realize there's a huge number of people that don't give a shit about construct vs real? :)

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 09:31 AM
Start the faction, Camel. Ill sign up :)

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 11:19 AM
You do realize there's a big huge faction full of people that don't give a shit about Asmodean right?
Wait, we're starting discussions by popular vote now? :eek:

nameless
11-05-2009, 02:11 AM
Well it seems all my favorite suspects have been disqualified, but I'll take another crack at it.

Graendal or Sammael: we know they were in cahoots with Rahvin, which gives them a reason to be in Caemlyn. We know Asmodean would recognize either of them, so they fit the "you? no!" requirement. They both had means and motive, fitting the "intuitively obvious" requirement. Graendal is featured prominently in tGS, so there are several scenes that could count as our "small clue." The biggest problem with both of them is that they'd simply blast Asmo with the power on the spot, and we've been told there's something fishy about "how" and "where" Asmodean died. I mean, sure, they COULD have opened a gateway to the edge of some [I]stedding[I] halfway around the world and killed him there, or pulled some other similar stunt to put him beyond the DO's reach, but that throws "intuitively obvious" right out the window.

Lanfear: even including her on this list makes me cringe. She was almost certainly trapped in Eelfinland at the time of the murder. However, she could have used one of her wishes to trade places with Asmodean or some other nonsense along those lines, thus fulfilling the "how and where" requirement with "by a wish and in an alternate reality." The wish motif was already established, as were her motivations for wanting Asmodean dead, so this might qualify as intuitively obvious for a very, very loose definition of the phrase. Mat ruminates (incorrectly) that his expedition into Eelfinland may end up rescuing Lanfear as well as Moraine, which would qualify as the small clue in tGS.

Slayer/Isam/Luc: possibly the strongest remaining candidate, which also makes me want to cringe. Having it be him would just be so, I don't know, out of left field. There's no indication that he was anywhere near Caemlyn at the time, or that he knew Asmodean was disguised as the Dragon's personal gleeman. However, as a contract killer he wouldn't care why someone asked him to take out a gleeman, and since he's personal hitman to the Forsaken there's a good chance Asmodean would have recognized him, fulfilling the "you? no!" part of the puzzle. As for the how and where, Hopper claims that the wolves whose spirits Slayer killed in the dreamworld can never reincarnate, so Asmodean being pulled bodily into TAR and stabbed to death seems to fit the bill. The only real problem is that Slayer was not mentioned at all in tGS, but perhaps the "small clue" refers to the person who hired him. Lanfear and Graendal are both viable candidates.

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:13 AM
You do realize there's a huge number of people that don't give a shit about construct vs real? :)
And that has what to do with this? I'm not digging up Lews Therin threads and asking why we forgot about them. :rolleyes:

Wait, we're starting discussions by popular vote now?
No. Just saying....don't be surprised if this thread falls back a few pages, because we've got organized Asmodean Apathy at Theoryland. ;)

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 09:52 AM
And that has what to do with this? I'm not digging up Lews Therin threads and asking why we forgot about them. :rolleyes:

This isn't a Lews Therin thread. Brush up on your title reading skills and try again.

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:18 PM
This isn't a Lews Therin thread. Brush up on your title reading skills and try again.
How bout you brush up on your own reading comprehension issues? I didn't say it was a Lews Therin thread, nor did I imply it. :rolleyes:

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 02:29 PM
How bout you brush up on your own reading comprehension issues? I didn't say it was a Lews Therin thread, nor did I imply it. :rolleyes:

My mistake.

If you don't care about Asmodean, then don't read the threads. It's really quite simple.

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:30 PM
I know. I read the threads because I find them to be marginally interesting. I wasn't complaining about the thread - just explaining why it probably fell past the first page. ;)

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 05:15 PM
I'll be disappointed if it ends up being Slayer, but if I force myself to be honest, a tiny little part of me will not be all that surprised.

Eilonwy
01-08-2010, 08:18 PM
Zombie gorefest...

... or Elayne bathing and choosing dresses...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Someone also may have curtsied to just the right degree... ;-)

Eilonwy
01-08-2010, 08:27 PM
The cast of likely suspects of who killed Asmodean include:


Graendal
Slayer
Shaidar Haran, "Hand of the Dark"
Aviendha



Who's not likely at all?

Verin <--in Two Rivers at the time.
Lanfear <-- entered *Finns with Moiraine, Asmodean died after this event.



If Graendal actually did the deed, of killing Asmodean in Caemlyn as many think; then he just may not of died at all now, considering that Graendal was Balefired to death by Rand in tGS. It's another possible twist on the story to satisfy Brandon the author just maybe...Asmodean alive. ;)

I admit, I'm due for a series re-read. Would Asmo recognize Slayer?

Neilbert
01-09-2010, 01:36 AM
The cast of likely suspects of who killed Asmodean include:
Graendal
Slayer
Shaidar Haran, "Hand of the Dark"
Aviendha


Who's not likely at all?
Verin <--in Two Rivers at the time.
Lanfear <-- entered *Finns with Moiraine, Asmodean died after this event.

I've gotta say I love these lists. They just dumbfound me. Here with our top suspects, we have someone who had been mentioned offhand twice and briefly appeared at a forsaken meeting, someone who couldn't kill a channeler face to face, someone who hadn't really even been introduced, and someone with no known motive.

In the impossible section we have the only person with a specific personal motive eliminated because she was probably in another universe at the time. Never mind the fact that she used to study other realities for a living.

Anyways, the small clue is Mat reasoning out that if Moiraine was still alive, Lanfear could be too. There is no reason to believe that the Finns killed Lanfear if they did not kill Moiraine. Lanfear either bargained her way out, or escaped, which on the low end could have taken a matter of minutes, without bothering to account for the time dilation. She could easily have done her stint in Finnland, and been out in time to meet up with Asmodean in Camelyn.

Lanfear didn't wish Asmodean dead, she bargained her way out of Finnland and then went to Camelyn where she killed the guy personally, and then she was snatched up by Shaidar Haran / Morridin. And by snatched up I mean killed, reincarnated, and mindtrapped.

I admit, I'm due for a series re-read. Would Asmo recognize Slayer?

Asmodean knew who Slayer was, so it's reasonable to assume he would recognize the guy. However, I personally find it highly unlikely that he would piss himself in terror at the sight of the guy standing in front of him with a knife.

Honestly I think that the death of Asmodean, and more specifically what came of it is one of the most poorly written parts of WoT. The reason there can be this debate about it is that everyone is a poor suspect in light of the events following. If it was Graendal or Aviendha then something should have come of it, instead they are written the exact same as they would be if they hadn't done it. If it were Lanfear then it should have been foreshadowing her shocking return, which at this point shocks nobody. I can see why RJ was so fed up with it. He needed Asmodean gone, and writ him dead without bothering to make a plot of it.

Eilonwy
01-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Asmodean knew who Slayer was, so it's reasonable to assume he would recognize the guy. However, I personally find it highly unlikely that he would piss himself in terror at the sight of the guy standing in front of him with a knife.

Thanks - as I said, I'm due for a series re-read. I just pulled out New Spring yesterday. :)

Terez
01-09-2010, 12:50 PM
I don't recall Asmodean knowing who Slayer was. Someone asked RJ if Slayer had met him, and he said 'No. No.....not in the books.' Some take that last to be evidence that Slayer killed Asmodean; some take it to be RJ realizing that he might have just ruled out a suspect, which is something he didn't want to do (he only ever ruled out Fain and Rand, outside the books).

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 02:57 PM
I don't recall Asmodean knowing who Slayer was. Someone asked RJ if Slayer had met him, and he said 'No. No.....not in the books.'Well, that is part of the exchange, but actually not all of it.
Emma: Did Slayer meet Asmodean before he was killed?
RJ: No.. am, no. Not in the books.



Kura: Just one other question. Does Slayer know every Forsaken?
RJ: Yeah, he does.That additional question, which came right after the discussion on Asmodean's killing, is important. Even though Asmodean had defected a bit, he was still a Forsaken at the time of his demise.
Asmodean and Slayer would have recognised each other.

I don't think Slayer is the actual killer, but he can't be ruled out on the grounds of "not being recognised".

Daekyras
01-09-2010, 03:04 PM
Well, that is part of the exchange, but actually not all of it.
That additional question, which came right after the discussion on Asmodean's killing, is important. Even though Asmodean had defected a bit, he was still a Forsaken at the time of his demise.
Asmodean and Slayer would have recognised each other.

I don't think Slayer is the actual killer, but he can't be ruled out on the grounds of "not being recognised".

I don't usually get involved in this particular subject but one question: What were Asmodeans last words?

I always read it as:
a) He is shocked to see the person.
b) He knows the person wants to kill him.
There is no pause in the speech. It is a really quick set of thoughts. But hey, I'm peobably wrong, as usual...

Terez
01-09-2010, 03:13 PM
You don't remember Asmodean's last words?

Really?

Daekyras
01-09-2010, 03:16 PM
You don't remember Asmodean's last words?

Really?

Sorry! thought I'd stuck the quote in there!:(
Of course I remember. It's one of the most memorable/unimportant scenes in the entire series....:)

Terez
01-09-2010, 03:23 PM
"You? No!"

Every HCFF knows that, even if we don't care who killed him. ;)

dominominic
01-09-2010, 03:52 PM
HCFF?

Spasmodean
01-09-2010, 07:32 PM
I don't think Slayer is the actual killer, but he can't be ruled out on the grounds of "not being recognised".

It doesn't fit with the "intuitively obvious" line RJ gave us either, which is what it boils down to when I think about it.

I see it either being Moiraine or Lanfear via a Finn wish or (left field) Semhirage as Asmodean POV'ed more than once that he'd wish to avoid her.
However Semi doesn't fit the intuitive part and is a more wacko theory suspect.

I am really curious as to why the PLACE Asmo got offed in played a part in why the DO couldn't have transmigrated him. We know about the Balefire restriction - what other restrictions might there be?

jason wolfbrother
01-10-2010, 01:06 AM
HCFF

Hard
Core
Fan
Freak

a title we wear with pride :cool:

GonzoTheGreat
01-10-2010, 03:54 AM
I am really curious as to why the PLACE Asmo got offed in played a part in why the DO couldn't have transmigrated him. We know about the Balefire restriction - what other restrictions might there be?The DO is a reformed alcoholic. If he were to go into a pantry (or anywhere else that he could get alcohol), then he would get plastered and spend the next three Ages sleeping off his hangover.
So while there are no physical reasons for his inability, there is a very clear tactical reason.

nategator
01-10-2010, 05:15 AM
It was a Wise One. Probably Amys, cause she's a stone cold killa.

GonzoTheGreat
01-10-2010, 05:42 AM
But Asmodean wouldn't have been surprised at meeting a WO (or any Aiel he could recognise, for that matter) there. He knew that they were tramping all over the palace, and seeing them in unexpected places was expected.

Terez
01-10-2010, 08:07 AM
Nothing to say that his surprise wasn't just for the person being in that particular room and holding the Power. ;)

Neilbert
01-10-2010, 01:06 PM
It's not just surprise though, it's terror. Asmodean wouldn't freeze in terror at the sight of Aviendha holding the power, he would fight for his life.

He may be at a disadvantage due to his shield, but he is still a Forsaken, and if he froze in terror every time he was threatened by a random half trained channeler he wouldn't have been alive to be sealed in the bore, much less die in Camelyn.

I would add that the killer must be someone Asmodean knows could kill him.

Belazamon
01-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Nothing to say that his surprise wasn't just for the person being in that particular room and holding the Power. ;)
Clearly it was Sorilea, then. She's just been hiding how much she can channel for the entire series. :eek:

Yuri33
01-10-2010, 05:24 PM
As I've stated many times in the past, Asmo clearly died of Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke-Korsakoff_syndrome). It's intuitively (and medically) obvious.

Cor Shan
01-10-2010, 09:27 PM
Here's one for you, Felix. If Graendal had been balefired back a year, Rodel Ituralde would suddenly not be working with Rand any longer. Why? Because Graendal directly met with him and wrote him letters to convince him to fight the Seanchan in the name of his king. If that campaign had not occurred, Rand wouldn't have needed to recruit him in order to bring peace to Arad Doman.

Since Ituralde is still in the Borderlands, working for Rand, Graendal cannot have been balefired back a year. QED.

While I think Felix is bonkers, I don't agree with you Belazamon, because Ituralde would still have the memory of receiving the letters and therefore would still have had the motivation to fight for his king. I think that's how the BF works, based off of how Mat remembers his own death.

nategator
01-10-2010, 09:34 PM
Clearly it was Sorilea, then. She's just been hiding how much she can channel for the entire series. :eek:

That's because Sorilea is the Superfade. You heard it here first:D :D

All kidding aside, any channeler with inverted weaves looking to kill would freak out Asmo since he could barely channel after the Lanfear shield. Heck, Oliver with some knives drawn would freak him out. For example:

"You?" [what's a kid doing in the wine pantry]
Oliver draws a knife.
"No!"
The word hung in the air as death took him. The DO would surely name him Nae'blis now, Oliver thought while dragging the corpse to the meat grinder.

nameless
01-10-2010, 10:31 PM
While I think Felix is bonkers, I don't agree with you Belazamon, because Ituralde would still have the memory of receiving the letters and therefore would still have had the motivation to fight for his king. I think that's how the BF works, based off of how Mat remembers his own death.

Mat doesn't remember his own death...

Terez
01-11-2010, 12:48 AM
Mat doesn't remember his own death...
Yeah, even Asmodean was only barely able to figure out what had happened to him. Give Cor a break, though; he's been on hiatus for about 5 years now. :)

Neilbert
01-11-2010, 02:04 AM
All kidding aside, any channeler with inverted weaves looking to kill would freak out Asmo since he could barely channel after the Lanfear shield. Heck, Oliver with some knives drawn would freak him out.

Any channeler with inverted weaves would mean one of the Forsaken at that point, and yes, that would have freaked him out.

nategator
01-11-2010, 03:53 AM
Any channeler with inverted weaves would mean one of the Forsaken at that point, and yes, that would have freaked him out.

My bad, I didn't realize RJ said inverted weaves could not be taught. Man, the DO sure has a lot of gifts: True Power, inverted waves...

Bottom line -- RJ thought this was a minor mystery and would have prob done the reveal in a book or two. Then he saw his fan community go bonkers over it, so he decided to hold off for a while and have fun. There was never enough information to conclusively solve the question. Instead, we should have probably gone with our gut reaction and that probably would have been right since it was supposed to be obvious. Of course, now I have no clue since I've read the WOT FAQ and can see it go 5-6 different ways.

Neilbert
01-12-2010, 12:41 AM
At that point in the story inverted weaves were a Forsaken only trick, as well as masking the ability. Mogheiden hadn't been captured long enough to teach Egwene and Co.

So yes, your bad.

Asmodean offered to go up against Rhavin with Rand. A third age channeler might worry him given his shield, but would certainly not him to freeze in terror. While he lacks in strength, against anyone not AoL trained he would have a huge skill advantage.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2010, 03:57 AM
Added to that, he has experience in fighting against women*, but none of the Aiel women had any experience in fighting against a channeling male.

* Well, at least one woman. He did defeat his mother, remember?

nategator
01-14-2010, 02:15 AM
So yes, your bad.



My, a bit testy aren't we?

And if you think a shielded Asmo had a snowball's chance of taking down Rhavin, I don't think we really would agree on much. Including sarcasm.

Terez
01-14-2010, 05:04 AM
I think you misunderstood his point. And yes; Neil is one of the few members that is actually testier than me.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2010, 07:44 AM
I am starting think nategator gets a bit testy as well. I think a lot of that stems from him not getting the point though.

Neilbert
01-14-2010, 08:42 PM
And if you think a shielded Asmo had a snowball's chance of taking down Rhavin, I don't think we really would agree on much. Including sarcasm.

You really couldn't figure out that I was making a point about Asmodean's courage?

rand
01-20-2010, 04:47 PM
A few thoughts...

This is kind of a "big" clue if it's right, and I assume the actual clue is something more subtle. But you never know.

My basic thought is that Faile killing Masema to protect Perrin could mirror Aviendha killing Asmo to protect Rand. If Faile can do it without telling Perrin, why not Aviendha (with Rand)?

Sorry if this was already mentioned in this thread, I didn't read the whole thing.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2010, 03:09 AM
Faile had been trying to let Perrin dump Masema, and she definitely knew that others had been warning him that Masema was mad too.
In contrast, Rand hasn't gotten any warnings about Asmodean from anyone at all. The most he got was a message from Moiraine, who wrote that while she wasn't really happy about it, she did understand why he had decided to take the risk.

If you want to argue that Aviendha did it without discussing it with Rand, then I ask: can you prove to me that she knew that Rand had learned enough to channel safely on his own, and that he had learned enough to able to detect and deal with anything any Forsaken might do?
In regard to the last: on the morning of Asmodean's death, Rand was not far enough, yet. His rather badly going fight against Lanfear was ample proof of deficiencies in his training.

Terez
01-21-2010, 06:41 AM
Faile had been trying to let Perrin dump Masema, and she definitely knew that others had been warning him that Masema was mad too.
In contrast, Rand hasn't gotten any warnings about Asmodean from anyone at all.
He didn't need Moiraine to tell him that one of the Forsaken was dangerous. :rolleyes: Obviously, he decided it was worth risking, and Aviendha decided that since he is a man, he obviously does not know what is best for himself, and that she would take matters into her own hands.

If you want to argue that Aviendha did it without discussing it with Rand, then I ask: can you prove to me that she knew that Rand had learned enough to channel safely on his own, and that he had learned enough to able to detect and deal with anything any Forsaken might do?
Proof is a strong word, but judging by what Moiraine said, Rand was already one of the 1 in 4 to survive wilding by the time he started learning from Asmodean. Aviendha is smart enough to have figured that out - Rand wasn't experiencing channeling sickness any more by the time Aviendha met Rand, and once the sickness stops, it's too late for the 3 in 4 who don't survive wilding. Rand wanted to learn fancy weaves, and while that was a noble enough objective, Aviendha (and the Wise Ones) obviously decided that he had learned enough.

In regard to the last: on the morning of Asmodean's death, Rand was not far enough, yet. His rather badly going fight against Lanfear was ample proof of deficiencies in his training.
It was not evidence of anything except for his unwillingness to harm a woman. After all, Rand saved Egwene and Aviendha from Lanfear's torture quickly enough, and he channeled a shield to protect everyone else. If there had been any evidence of deficiency in training, then it would have only been further impetus to get on with killing Asmodean, since he was not a very good teacher anyway.......which the Wise Ones probably already knew from eavesdropping on Rand's conversations with him; Asmodean admitted he wasn't a good teacher. Or, more truthfully, he used that as an excuse for not teaching Rand the things he really wanted to know. All the more reason to kill him, since he obviously had an ulterior motive for 'teaching' Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2010, 07:06 AM
He didn't need Moiraine to tell him that one of the Forsaken was dangerous. :rolleyes: Obviously, he decided it was worth risking, and Aviendha decided that since he is a man, he obviously does not know what is best for himself, and that she would take matters into her own hands.Do you have actual evidence from the books where she thinks this in a relevant case?

As counter evidence, I'll present you something she said just the day before:
"Do not be a fool, Rand al'Thor. Any could have danced the spears with Couladin; for you to risk it was the thinking of a child. None among us can face the Shadowsouled, save you."She explicitly admits here that when it comes to dealing with Forsaken, Rand is the foremost authority.

In between her saying that and then supposedly killing with Asmodean, she faced Lanfear with no chance of success at all, while Rand was at least reasonably effective (as you admit), and then something happened which she did not understand at all (the balefire incident), while Rand obliterates Rahvin.
Nothing in there to weaken her belief that Rand is the best (though not perfect) at dealing with Forsaken, and plenty to reinforce it.

Terez
01-21-2010, 08:02 AM
Do you have actual evidence from the books where she thinks this in a relevant case?
Of course not, or no one would argue about Asmodean. :rolleyes: But that's just to do with direct evidence; everyone knows that Aviendha felt obligated to protect Rand, for Elayne. And you know better than anyone that all the women in the series think that men don't know what is best for themselves.

As counter evidence, I'll present you something she said just the day before:
She explicitly admits here that when it comes to dealing with Forsaken, Rand is the foremost authority.
That was Sulin. :rolleyes:

Nothing in there to weaken her belief that Rand is the best (though not perfect) at dealing with Forsaken, and plenty to reinforce it.
There was plenty in there to weaken that belief (that never existed in the first place).

1. Rand showed an amazing impotence when fighting Lanfear, and Moiraine died because of it (at least so far as everyone believed).

2. While they were eavesdropping on Rand, they no doubt learned that Asmodean was only with Rand because of the arrangement with Lanfear. With Lanfear gone, there was no longer anyone around to prevent other Forsaken from interfering with the Asmodean situation. Granted, some argue that this strengthens the idea that a Forsaken killed him, but for those looking out for Rand, the situation had just gotten a lot more risky than it had been (not counting the risk of Lanfear harming Rand, which they couldn't have done anything about in the first place).

3. A counter to your quote (this one actually has Aviendha in it):

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 51 - News Comes to Cairhien

Elayne would never be able to forgive him. He had known that Rahvin – Gaebril – held Morgase prisoner, but he had ignored it because the Forsaken might expect him to help her. He had gone his own way, to do what they did not expect. And ended chasing Couladin instead of doing what he planned. He had known, and concentrated his attention on Sammael. Because the man taunted him. Morgase could wait while he smashed Sammael's trap and Sammael with it. And so Morgase was dead. Elayne's mother was dead. Elayne would curse him to her deathbed.

"I'll tell you one thing," Mat was going on. "There are a lot of queen's men down there. They are not so sure about fighting for a king. You find Elayne. Half of them will flock to you to put her on the —"

"Shut up!" Rand barked. He quivered so hard with fury that Egwene stepped back, and even Moiraine eyed him carefully. Aviendha's hand tightened on his shoulder, but he shook it off as he stood. Morgase dead because he had done nothing. His own hand had been on the knife as surely as Rahvin's. Elayne. "She will be avenged. Rahvin, Mat. Not Gaebril. Rahvin. I'll lay him by the heels if I never do another thing!"

"Oh, blood and bloody ashes!" Mat groaned.

"This is madness." Egwene flinched as if realizing what she had said, but she kept that firm, calm voice. "You have your hands full with Cairhien yet, not to mention the Shaido to the north and whatever it is you're planning in Tear. Do you mean to start another war, with two on your plate already and a ruined land besides?"

"Not a war. Me. I can be in Caemlyn in an hour. A raid – right, Mat? – a raid, not a war. I'll rip Rahvin's heart out." His voice was a hammer. He felt as if acid filled his veins. "I could wish I had Elaida's thirteen sisters to take with me, to smother him, and bring him to justice. Tried and hung for murder. That would be justice. But he'll just have to die however I can kill him."

"Tomorrow," Moiraine said softly.

Rand glared at her. But she was right. Tomorrow would be better. A night to let his rage cool. He needed to be cold when he faced Rahvin. Now he wanted to seize saidin and lay about him, destroying. Asmodean's music had changed again, to a tune that street musicians in the city had played during the civil war. You could still hear it sometimes when a Cairhienin noble passed. "The Fool Who Thought He Was King." "Get out, Natael. Get out!"

Asmodean straightened smoothly, bowing, but his face could have done for snow, and he crossed the room quickly, as if uncertain what one second more might bring. He always pushed, but perhaps this time he had pushed too far. As he opened the door, Rand spoke again.

"I will see you tonight. Or I will see you dead."

Asmodean's bow was not so graceful this time. "As my Lord Dragon commands," he said hoarsely, and hurriedly pulled the door shut with him on the other side.

The three women looked at Rand, expressionless, not blinking.

"The rest of you go, too" Mat practically bounded toward the door. "Not you. I have things to say to you yet."

Mat stopped short, sighing loudly and fiddling with his medallion. He was the only one who had moved.

"You do not have thirteen Aes Sedai," Aviendha said, "but you have two. And myself. I may not know as much as Moiraine Sedai, but I am as strong as Egwene, and I am no stranger to the dance." She meant the dance of spears, what the Aiel called battle.

"Rahvin is mine," he told her quietly. Maybe Elayne could forgive him a little if he at least avenged her mother. Probably not, but maybe he could forgive himself. A little. He forced his hands to stay at his sides, to not make fists.

"Will you draw a line on the ground for him to step over?" Egwene asked. "Put a chip on your shoulder? Have you considered that Rahvin might not be alone if he calls himself King of Andor now? Much good it will do when you appear if one of his guards puts an arrow through your heart."

He could remember wishing she would not shout at him, but it had been so much easier then. "Did you think I meant to go alone?" He had; he had never thought of anyone to guard his back, though now he could hear a small whisper, He likes to come from behind, or at your flanks. He could hardly think clearly at all. His anger seemed to have a life of its own, stoking the fires that kept it boiling. "But not you. This is dangerous. Moiraine can come if she wishes."

Egwene and Aviendha did not look at one another before stepping forward, but they moved as one, not stopping until they were so close even Aviendha had to tilt her bead back to look up at him.

"Moiraine can come if she wishes," Egwene said.

If her voice was smooth ice, Aviendha's was molten stone. "But it is too dangerous for us."

"Have you become my father? Is your name Bran al'Vere?"

"If you have three spears, do you put two aside because they are newer made?"

"I do not want to risk you," he said stiffly.

Egwene arched her eyebrows. "Oh?" That was all.

"I am not gai'shain to you." Aviendha bared her teeth. "You will never choose what risks I take, Rand al'Thor. Never. Know it now."
1. Rand revealed to Aviendha that he had known that Gaebril was Rahvin. His poor judgment concerning this particular Forsaken led to the death of Elayne's mother (so far as Aviendha knew).

2. Aviendha clearly did not believe that Rand was quite capable of taking care of himself, or she would not have insisted on going with him.

3. This is one of many instances where Rand and Asmodean say too much in front of other people. Egwene hasn't got it figured out, but then, she's not been privy to eavesdropping on Rand since he started warding his dreams. Aviendha most likely has been; the Wise Ones know what she saw in the rings, and after Moiraine insisted that they allow him some privacy, the Wise Ones would not have allowed Egwene to participate while they were going against Moiraine's wishes.

rand
01-21-2010, 10:01 AM
Aviendha didn't even need to know that Jasin Natael was a channeler teaching Rand, let alone one of the forsaken teaching Rand, to decide to off him of her own accord.

He's said quite a few suspicious things (certainly enough for Avi to figure out he could channel, but that's beside my point here). Perhaps the most relevant scene is when Rand and Avi get back from their Seanchan trip. On seeing "Natael," Rand basically kicks Avi out to talk to him, right after their fun in the igloo episode. Plus there's the fact that Asmo is with Rand almost as much as Avi is. Perhaps she was just jealous and decided to kill him? That would seem kind of like a weak reason (though not really for Avi), but she could also have perceived that Asmo was a threat to Rand.

Alternatively, like I said before, Avi could have figured out that Natael could channel. Maybe she assumed that Rand didn't know this? It would be like her to assume he was clueless, and it would also be like her to keep it from Rand.

Anyway, Avi could have killed Natael because he was a potential threat just as Faile did with Masema.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2010, 10:11 AM
Masema was not just a potential threat, he was an actual threat. He was the one who had turned Aram against Perrin.

On the other hand, what had Natael actually done, that the WOs (or Aviendha alone) could know of?
Remember: Aiel don't kill male channelers on sight. Instead, they let them go off to kill the DO. Taking out a couple of Forsaken on your way there is just good tactics, so even if she had suspected he could channel, that would still not have been a reason to kill him at all.

rand
01-21-2010, 10:44 AM
While Natael didn't actually do anything outright, like I said, he behaved quite suspiciously throughout FoH. There're basically three paths here:
1)Avi knew exactly who Asmo was, or at least that he was a forsaken.
2)Avi knew Natael could channel.
3)Avi knew only that Natael was a threat.
*note that in 1 and 2, Avi did not necessarily know that Natael was actually teaching Rand how to channel

If 1 is the case, and Avi knew that Natael was a forsaken, even she would throw Aiel tradition away and kill a male channeler. Even if she knew he was teaching Rand, Avi would decide the risk was too hgih and kill him. Basically, the simple fact of a forsaken being around Rand would surely be enough for Avi to decide to kill him to protect Rand.

If 2 is true, and Avi knew only that Natael could channel, then she would still likely perceive the same threat: any male channeler around Rand who is attempting to hide his channeling abilities is a definite threat. As for Aiel custom of sending male channelers away, do you really think Avi would risk Rand's life by simply telling Natael to leave, instead of just killing him? Also, the Aiel custom of sending male channelers away to fight the DO doesn't apply to wetlander male channelers (they probably don't get too many of those in the Waste). I'm sure they could try to send a wetleander male channeler off to fight the DO, but it doesn't seem likely any sane wetlander would go through with it once away from the Aiel. Avi could have sent Natael away, but, knowing he's an unhonorable wetlander, likely assumed he wouldn't get very far before deciding to come back.

If 3 is the case, and Avi doesn't know that Natael can channel at all, there is still a threat (albeit a different one than in 1 and 2). As I said before, Natael is almost constantly with Rand. Avi could assume he is gaining influence with Rand. The fact that Rand kicks Avi out to talk to Natael (right after the Seanchan trip) must have seemed quite suspicious to her. She likely assumed Natael had more influence over Rand than she and the WO's had. That would be a threat to not only Rand, but her and the WO's (and all of the Aiel) as well. Thus, she just killed him before he had a chance to really influence Rand a whole lot.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2010, 11:17 AM
In none of those cases is it clear why Asmodean was allowed to accompany Rand to Caemlyn. Why not kill him earlier, so that he can't turn traitor at the most dangerous moment (when attacking Rahvin), but only kill him after he has proven his trustworthiness (at least somewhat) by fighting on your side?

rand
01-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Well, there are several possiblities, most of which lead to dead ends because there's no evidence for them. But...

-Avi simply didn't realize who Natael really was (Asmo or channeler, either one) until reaching Caemlyn. (Seems unlikely, but possibly someone noticed him channeling and told Avi).

-Perhaps there was no opportunity to kill Natael, as he was often with Rand.

-Rand would have suspected the Aiel were involved if Asmo suddenly vanished. I know he did just vanish, as Rand sees it, in Caemlyn. However, Asmo was almost always with Rand before Caemlyn, and when he wasn't Asmo was guarded by a weave from Rand (I think, at least--he was in Rhuidean). Maybe Avi decided to kill Asmo in the confusion after the Caemlyn attack to make it a more realistic possibility that he just ran away or was killed by someone other than an Aiel.

This could make sense considering the place Asmo died was supposedly important--Avi was just waiting for the right opportunity where it would be possible to both kill Asmo and make certain Rand would never suspect Aiel involvement.

Crispin's Crispian
01-21-2010, 03:11 PM
-Perhaps there was no opportunity to kill Natael, as he was often with Rand.

This is probably the best argument. First I thought, "Didn't Aviendha spend most of FoH in a tent with Rand and Asmodean? Surely some of the time Rand wasn't around."

But then, she'd had no opportunity to do it without raising Rand's suspicions or hiding the body. Alternatively, she could have just killed and told Rand that Natael attacked her. Who's he going to trust?

Terez
01-21-2010, 03:20 PM
Rand, it's good to see you aren't as shiny as you once were. Welcome back. :D

nameless
01-21-2010, 06:28 PM
Aviendha is not a viable suspect because she does not have the means to meet the "how and where" requirement. We know Asmodean could not have been reincarnated even if the Dark One wanted him back because there is something special about how and where he died that prevented his soul from being harvested. Aviendha's first weapon of choice is her knife and her second is very basic combat weaves such as fireballs, lightning, etc. It is doubtful she even knew any weaves capable of interfering with soul transfer. Furthermore, hiding the body afterwards is completely out of character for an Aiel killer. Look at Mangin, for example. He decides some anonymous Carheinin man needs to die for wearing dragon tattoos, kills him, and then owns up to the fact even though he knows it will mean his own execution.

rand
01-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Thanks, Terez :)

I forgot the exact quote, but does it specifically say that the DO could not resurrect Asmo or simply would not?

I always thought the DO didn't resurrect Asmodean because Asmo turned against him. The "how and where" he died could possibly mean he was shamefully killed by a random person while in a position of betrayal.

Also, if the DO actually could not resurrect Asmo because of the way he died, Avi could have used balefire. She saw Nynaeve use it on some myrdraal (not sure if she would remember that though, or if she even knew enough/anything of channeling at the time to pick it up). However, Avi also discovered Traveling somewhat randomly, why not balefire?


The option where the DO simply won't resurrect Asmo because he betrayed him is more viable, but if the DO indeed could not resurrect him, there is still a possibility Avi could have done it.

As for hiding the body, Avi simply didn't want Rand to find it. If it had just been some random person, then yeah, she might not have gone through with the trouble of hiding the body.


Edit: Found the quote and it does say "could not"...

Terez
01-21-2010, 07:30 PM
Aviendha is not a viable suspect because she does not have the means to meet the "how and where" requirement.
Says who? She was there when Nynaeve used balefire, and she also might have learned it elsewhere. We don't even know for sure that RJ was talking about balefire. Aviendha's usual weapons of choice don't make much of a difference, since she would not be likely to use them against a Forsaken. Aviendha fits RJ's emphasis on 'timing' and 'opportunity' better than anyone else except for Mat and maybe Rand. Rand is disqualified, and Mat is less than likely.

And yeah, RJ says that the Dark One could not resurrect Asmodean.

Yuri33
01-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Besides the fact that killing Asmo behind Rand's back and then never owning up to it would be a gross violation of ji'e'toh, there's this passage in TGS:

TGS, A Crack in the Stone:
Aviendha had heard about the events the night before, when he had been attacked by Semirhage. One of the Shadowsouled themselves; Aviendha wished she had seen the creature before she was killed. She shuddered.

Rand al'Thor had fought and won. Though he acted the fool much of the time, he was a skilled—and lucky—warrior. Who else alive could claim to have personally defeated as many of the Shadowsouled as he had? There was much honor in him.

This would have been the perfect time to acknowledge her own killing of a Forsaken (even just to herself), yet she does not. This is not proof, of course, but it makes her having killed Asmo very unlikely.

Terez
01-21-2010, 09:57 PM
I don't think so. As was mentioned before, Asmodean was hobbled, so he wasn't quite as frightening as he would have been otherwise. And that might have been the perfect opportunity to reveal that she killed Asmodean, but I think that Brandon is holding on to the 'squirm' policy as long as possible, so it's not really relevant.

Also, your understanding of ji'e'toh is flawed. The principle behind it is to do what you must, and pay for it. If the Wise Ones can spy on his dreams without his permission, and eavesdrop on his conversations without owning up to it, then I don't think that they would consider the secret of assassination of Asmodean to be a violation of the code in the first place, but even if they did, it would be acceptable to meet the toh in some way that doesn't require that Rand be notified, like Aviendha did when she lied to Rand.

Yuri33
01-22-2010, 01:15 AM
As was mentioned before, Asmodean was hobbled, so he wasn't quite as frightening as he would have been otherwise.

He's a Forsaken, why would any of this make any difference?

And that might have been the perfect opportunity to reveal that she killed Asmodean, but I think that Brandon is holding on to the 'squirm' policy as long as possible, so it's not really relevant.

That's even more circumstantial than what I offered.

Also, your understanding of ji'e'toh is flawed. The principle behind it is to do what you must, and pay for it. If the Wise Ones can spy on his dreams without his permission, and eavesdrop on his conversations without owning up to it, then I don't think that they would consider the secret of assassination of Asmodean to be a violation of the code in the first place, but even if they did, it would be acceptable to meet the toh in some way that doesn't require that Rand be notified, like Aviendha did when she lied to Rand.

There's a huge difference between spying vs killing in ji'e'toh, and there is plenty of evidence to support that, the Aielman in Carhein being the most relevant. Part of "paying for it" is informing the person you dishonored, like Egwene did before going to Salidar. Can you name one instance involving killing where toh was met without informing the one who was dishonored?

Exactly what purpose does it serve to conceal Asmo's assassination? Because it would displease Rand? Such consideration has never influenced the WO's.

Neilbert
01-22-2010, 01:49 AM
I don't think so. As was mentioned before, Asmodean was hobbled, so he wasn't quite as frightening as he would have been otherwise.

Did Aviendha know this?

Sodas
01-22-2010, 02:27 AM
This is probably the best argument. First I thought, "Didn't Aviendha spend most of FoH in a tent with Rand and Asmodean? Surely some of the time Rand wasn't around."

But then, she'd had no opportunity to do it without raising Rand's suspicions or hiding the body. Alternatively, she could have just killed and told Rand that Natael attacked her. Who's he going to trust?

I don't think that is the best argument. Aviendha was sitting at that fountain. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Aviendha got up from that fountain. Aviendha may or may not have considered Asmodean weakened, but that is irrelevant at that moment. She was too busy talking to Mat. She wasn't paying attention to Asmodean at all to suddenly follow and surpass him in the hallways of the palace.

Terez
01-22-2010, 02:39 AM
He's a Forsaken, why would any of this make any difference?
Because the only thing the passage you quoted actually demonstrates is that Aviendha holds the Forsaken in awe.

There's a huge difference between spying vs killing in ji'e'toh
Didn't stop Edarra and Co. from telling Perrin that Masema needed to be killed (in cold blood no less). They didn't do it against his wishes, but of course they wouldn't, since Perrin would be sure to suspect them first. Since Amys and Co. weren't trying to convince Rand to kill Asmodean, they didn't have that restriction. Edarra and Co. made the mistake of assuming that Perrin would act like a chief in this, and do what was necessary - they seemed to have a hard time understanding why Perrin didn't understand that Masema needed to die - but Amys and Co. knew better than to make that assumption with Rand.

Part of "paying for it" is informing the person you dishonored
Eventually. They still haven't owned up to the eavesdropping, though, and they were extremely angry with Aviendha for revealing to Rand that they watched his dreams. They probably feared that he would send them away for something that serious, yet they thought the risk was serious enough to incur the toh to Rand. But, like I said, it's not even established that any toh was incurred: in fact, they might see it the other way around, as having saved Rand from a danger he refused to acknowledge. That is, after all, how the Wise Ones apparently justified their eavesdropping: spying is grievous violation of ji'e'toh, but they spied on Rand for his protection, and for the Aiel's protection.

Also, the Aiel are very strict with Darkfriends:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 21 - Swovan Night

"It is Jaichim Carridin who interests me," Aviendha said, closing the book and setting it beside her. She refused to consider how odd she looked, sitting on the floor in a blue silk dress. "Among us, Shadowrunners are killed as soon as found, and not clan, sept, society or first-sister will raise a hand in protest. If Jaichim Carridin is a Shadowrunner, why does Tylin Mitsobar not kill him? Why do we not?"
They knew Rand would protest, but they also knew that Asmodean had to die.

Can you name one instance involving killing where toh was met without informing the one who was dishonored?
No, because there are no other examples of the Wise Ones and needful assassination but Masema, or any other needful assassination at all save Laman, that I can think of, unless you count random killings of treekillers and people with dragon tattoos. Also, even if there were other assassinations, the situation with Rand would probably still be unique, because usually assassination would not run the risk of incurring toh to anyone that the Aiel care about.

Exactly what purpose does it serve to conceal Asmo's assassination? Because it would displease Rand?
Yup. It is one of those situations where the women in the series think they know what is best for a man; RJ wrote the same thing countless times, including when Faile eventually killed Masema. The Wise Ones are not shy about telling Rand when they are displeased with him, but neither do they have compunctions about hiding things when they think it best.

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2010, 04:37 AM
I haven't been able to find it, one way or another: did Aviendha ever find out about Moghedien in Salidar? If so, did Aviendha kill that Forsaken?

rand
01-22-2010, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Yuri33
This would have been the perfect time to acknowledge her own killing of a Forsaken (even just to herself), yet she does not. This is not proof, of course, but it makes her having killed Asmo very unlikely.
This assumes, though, that she knew exactly who she was killing (ie, that Natael was Asmodean).

Originally Posted by Sodas
Aviendha was sitting at that fountain. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Aviendha got up from that fountain. Aviendha may or may not have considered Asmodean weakened, but that is irrelevant at that moment. She was too busy talking to Mat. She wasn't paying attention to Asmodean at all to suddenly follow and surpass him in the hallways of the palace.
It is very unlikely that Aviendha wouldn't have noticed him walking right by her. She isn't exactly unobservant, and I'm sure Mat wouldn't be offended in the least if she just left him quickly--he'd probably be relieved.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
I haven't been able to find it, one way or another: did Aviendha ever find out about Moghedien in Salidar? If so, did Aviendha kill that Forsaken?
She knows as of aCoS at least. However, I don't think it's mentioned that she knew this before leaving Salidar. Even if she did know, Avi seems to think (for some reason) that Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene know what they're doing far more than Rand does, and may have trusted them to deal with one of the forsaken (assuming she even knew Natael was a forsaken).

Neilbert
01-22-2010, 05:20 PM
From your quote:

"I am not gai'shain to you." Aviendha bared her teeth. "You will never choose what risks I take, Rand al'Thor. Never. Know it now."

Why does Aviendha get to choose what risks Rand takes?

Sodas
01-22-2010, 05:54 PM
It is very unlikely that Aviendha wouldn't have noticed him walking right by her. She isn't exactly unobservant, and I'm sure Mat wouldn't be offended in the least if she just left him quickly--he'd probably be relieved.


Yes, she might have noticed him leave. Maybe she didn't. Pure speculation on that.

What we do know is that Avi was extraordinarily preoccupied at the moment. We are lead to believe that she in no way recognized Asmodean's exit from the garden area. The conversation she was having with Mat was probably a purposeful distraction from her own thoughts. She too probably didn't want to be thinking about being reborn by balefire just like Asmodean.

More importantly, believing she acted on orders from the Wise One's to kill Natael at that moment seems like fantasy when Rand ordered her to stay put. And the Maiden's agreed. In fact, they sent an "escort" to enforce that.


Aviendha was trailing her hand in the fountain's redstone basin, still intrigued by so much water with no purpose but to be looked at and keep ornamental fish alive. She had been more than indignant at first, when he told her she could not go chasing Trollocs through the streets. In fact, he was not sure she would be down there now if not for a quiet escort of Maidens that Sulin did not think he had noticed. Neither was he supposed to have heard the white-haired Maiden remind her that she was Far Dareis Mai no longer and not yet a Wise One.

I think it's logical to believe they did their job without a problem.

Terez
01-22-2010, 06:19 PM
From your quote:



Why does Aviendha get to choose what risks Rand takes?
Because he put everyone else at risk in the process? Because men need women to figure out what is best for them? Because the Maidens carry his honor?

nameless
01-23-2010, 01:27 AM
Says who? She was there when Nynaeve used balefire, and she also might have learned it elsewhere. We don't even know for sure that RJ was talking about balefire. Aviendha's usual weapons of choice don't make much of a difference, since she would not be likely to use them against a Forsaken. Aviendha fits RJ's emphasis on 'timing' and 'opportunity' better than anyone else except for Mat and maybe Rand. Rand is disqualified, and Mat is less than likely.

And yeah, RJ says that the Dark One could not resurrect Asmodean.

In fact, we know RJ was not talking about balefire, because the salient issues with balefire are how and WHEN, not how and where. Setting that aside, Aviendha could not have learned balefire from watching Nynaeve make it because her abilities were not far enough along at that point. Her strength and development is roughly parallel to Egwene's and Egwene had been training for weeks before she was even able to see to glow, much less make out complicated weaves she had only seen once. She may have been able to figure it out herself later, as she's shown a knack for that sort of thing in the past, but RJ's comment emphasizing where rather than when indicates the balefire was not the murder weapon in this particular instance so whether she knew it or not is immaterial.

Terez
01-23-2010, 03:02 AM
In fact, we know RJ was not talking about balefire, because the salient issues with balefire are how and WHEN, not how and where.
I disagree. We have hashed this out here before; RJ's QotW detail says that distance from Shayol Ghul makes it more difficult for the Dark One to secure a soul, and he also said that balefire would prevent him from securing the soul unless the amount of balefire was very small. So, it could have been a combination of a small amount of balefire and distance from Shayol Ghul.

Aviendha could not have learned balefire from watching Nynaeve make it because her abilities were not far enough along at that point.
How do you know? There's not enough info given to determine whether or not she could see weaves at that point.

She may have been able to figure it out herself later
Yup, that is another option that we already stated.

Neilbert
01-23-2010, 03:17 AM
Because he put everyone else at risk in the process? Because men need women to figure out what is best for them? Because the Maidens carry his honor?

As clan chief Rand places everyone he sends into battle at risk. As clan chief in a war against the Dark One Rand places everyone at risk with every action he takes. The Aiel have never shied away at being placed at risk by Rand before, why is this instance any different?

Your other reasons aren't really worth responding to. Aiel aren't as sexist as you are supposing, and Aviendha is no longer a Maiden of the spear, so anything to do with them carrying his honor has nothing to do with her.

Terez
01-23-2010, 03:53 AM
As clan chief Rand places everyone he sends into battle at risk. As clan chief in a war against the Dark One Rand places everyone at risk with every action he takes. The Aiel have never shied away at being placed at risk by Rand before, why is this instance any different?
Because it's unnecessary, dipshit. The Aiel aren't sexist, but the attitude that RJ put in the books is very real, and my reference to it is just as lighthearted as his meaning.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2010, 04:03 AM
Because he put everyone else at risk in the process? Because men need women to figure out what is best for them? Because the Maidens carry his honor?In what way does any of these make Aviendha more qualified at judging when a male channeler has learned enough than that male channeler himself would be?
Or, if you want it a bit less stringently: why should Aviendha think that she is a good enough judge of what can and cannot be done safely with saidin?

And, as an aside: I had forgotten that she had a gaggle of Maidens to babysit her at the time. That's bound to be a problem when she starts killng gleemen, wouldn't you say?
I do not think that she would have been willing to explain to them that Rand had been spending most of his nights happily chatting to a Forsaken, so she couldn't let them know why this gleeman had to be killed. And randomly killing gleemen is rather frowned upon amongst the Aiel.

Terez
01-23-2010, 04:13 AM
In what way does any of these make Aviendha more qualified at judging when a male channeler has learned enough than that male channeler himself would be?
That is a separate issue that was addressed earlier.

And, as an aside: I had forgotten that she had a gaggle of Maidens to babysit her at the time. That's bound to be a problem when she starts killng gleemen, wouldn't you say?
By the scene where it happened, I'd say not at all. The Maidens are good enough at keeping secrets that they might have even been in on the plan. They definitely don't mind going against his wishes when it concerns his safety.

Neilbert
01-23-2010, 04:24 AM
Because it's unnecessary, dipshit..

Moiraine would disagree. Rand would disagree. Lanfear and Asmodean would disagree. In fact, everyone who knew about the whole situation would disagree about how necessary it was. Except the people who you decided knew about it and then made up opinions for.

The Maidens are good enough at keeping secrets that they might have even been in on the plan.

Oh so it's a conspiracy now... you're starting to sound like Felix.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2010, 04:24 AM
So you're saying there's a giant female Aiel conspiracy to rob the Car'a'carn from an adviser he does not really trust but thinks he needs. His distrust has been made quite clear, at least to Asmodean, and consequently also to whoever listens in on their conversations.

Why haven't those Aiel ever killed Taim? For that matter, why didn't they kill Weiramon, Colavaere, or the WT delegation that later on kidnapped him? If they're so willing to commit murder when they think it suits them, no matter what the nominal leader says, then why didn't the WOs accompanying Perrin not butcher Masema?

Frankly, I see no evidence to suggest that they would indeed resort to such killing without consulting Rand. There is quite a lot of circumstantial evidence against the idea.
That is a separate issue that was addressed earlier.By dismissing it. Which is not very convincing, I have to say.

Sodas
01-23-2010, 01:19 PM
In what way does any of these make Aviendha more qualified at judging when a male channeler has learned enough than that male channeler himself would be?
Or, if you want it a bit less stringently: why should Aviendha think that she is a good enough judge of what can and cannot be done safely with saidin?

And, as an aside: I had forgotten that she had a gaggle of Maidens to babysit her at the time. That's bound to be a problem when she starts killng gleemen, wouldn't you say?
I do not think that she would have been willing to explain to them that Rand had been spending most of his nights happily chatting to a Forsaken, so she couldn't let them know why this gleeman had to be killed. And randomly killing gleemen is rather frowned upon amongst the Aiel.

Not to mention, it makes Asmodean's exclamation impossible to understand. It should have been more like,

"Women, No!"

rand
01-23-2010, 04:45 PM
The Maidens guarding Avi could easily have shared Avi's views that Natael was endangering Rand, and thus didn't bother to stop her from killing him. Obviously they did not all need to follow her to accomplish this.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Why haven't those Aiel ever killed Taim? For that matter, why didn't they kill Weiramon, Colavaere, or the WT delegation that later on kidnapped him? If they're so willing to commit murder when they think it suits them, no matter what the nominal leader says, then why didn't the WOs accompanying Perrin not butcher Masema?
Rand's distrust for these people was clear. Natael, on the other hand, was always with Rand. Avi likely thought he was gaining too much sway with Rand, possibly enough to rival her/the Aiel. Knowing Rand would probably not take it well if she killed Natael under his nose, she waited until a time when he could be killed so it could be made to look like he ran away, and Rand would never lose any trust with the Aiel.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
In what way does any of these make Aviendha more qualified at judging when a male channeler has learned enough than that male channeler himself would be?
Again, this assumes that Avi knew Natael could channel. She could have just seen a suspicious man gaining too much influence with Rand and decided he should die.

nameless
01-23-2010, 05:47 PM
Rand's distrust for "Nateal" was hardly a secret, given that Aviendha has overheard Rand threatening to kill the man at least once.

More circumstantial evidence she had no idea Nateal could channel: when Rand recreates an entire palace courtyard to use as a Skimming platform and Nateal expresses approval for Rand's growing abilities, Aviendha tells him to shut up and knock off the flattery. It's possible she was just in a bad mood but more likely that she did not recognize praise from teacher to pupil and simply thought Nateal was being a spineless sycophant. Likely some die-hard "Aviendha did it" supporters will claim she knew exactly what was going on but pretended not to in order to maintain her cover, but she's never displayed that kind of guile before or since. The Aiel way of hiding what they know is to keep up a poker face, not to use lies or misdirection.

In the end the question is one of plausibility. Aviendha could have discovered Nateal's true identity or developed some other reason to want to kill him, she could have taught herself balefire, she could have evaded her Maiden escort or else brought them in on the conspiracy... but would she? Would she keep his death a secret when her past reaction to any perceived threats to Rand has been to deal with them openly and tell him openly that he's an idiot for allowing them to get close to him in the first place? Would she decide to use balefire instead of a regular fireball at a point in the series when even Rand didn't know that balefire could be used to prevent reincarnation, and then never use balefire again, even when being attacked by an overwhelming number of Seanchan or threatened by Moridin himself during the Ebou Dar evacuation? Every case against every suspect is built on at least some circumstantial evidence but the number of assumptions necessary to build a case for Aviendha should put her pretty far down the list if not remove her entirely.

Terez
01-23-2010, 06:03 PM
Moiraine would disagree. Rand would disagree. Lanfear and Asmodean would disagree.
So? It really was unnecessary, because Asmodean wasn't a very good teacher, and Rand was already well past the danger of dying.

More circumstantial evidence she had no idea Nateal could channel:
I have always seen that as evidence the other way around. Why else would she have that sort of attitude toward him? He's a gleeman. And of course she's not going to reveal to Rand that she knows who he is....why would you expect her to?

IMO, Aviendha is at the top of the list. She was the most intuitively obvious candidate to me, and she is the ONLY suspect that fits RJ's criteria about focusing on timing and opportunity. There are less assumptions involved with Aviendha as a suspect than anyone else by far.

Sodas
01-23-2010, 07:44 PM
The Maidens guarding Avi could easily have shared Avi's views that Natael was endangering Rand,

I don't know where you get that from. There is absolutely no reason to believe those Maidens would share ANY view with Aviendha at that moment. If she decided to leave the fountain area, they would have stopped her. That was their purpose there. They weren't there to talk and conspire to kill Asmodean when he left.

Neilbert
01-24-2010, 12:58 AM
So? It really was unnecessary, because Asmodean wasn't a very good teacher, and Rand was already well past the danger of dying.

Yes, Rand was well past that danger before he left Tear, something Moiraine was well aware of. Helping Rand survive the dangers of tapping into the True Source the first few times was never anyone's reason for wanting Asmodean to teach Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2010, 03:55 AM
The Maidens guarding Avi could easily have shared Avi's views that Natael was endangering Rand, and thus didn't bother to stop her from killing him. Obviously they did not all need to follow her to accomplish this.Alternatively, one of those Maidens could have stuck a dagger (or a spear) into Asmodean's back herself. That would achieve the same result, yet keep Aviendha out of combat, just as they were supposed to do.
The only reason why she was allowed to go and fight was that they were going to face one or more channelers. If the Maidens didn't know that Natael could channel, then they wouldn't have had a reason to let Aviendha in on the kill. If they did know that he could channel, then starting a fight without informing Rand of it was too big a risk.

Suppose that it had gone wrong, and Asmodean had won, then what?
He probably would have decided that staying near Rand had become too dangerous, after he'd killed Rand's lover. And if Rand did not know about that in time, then Asmodean could have managed to take down Rand with a knife in the back.

Wantanswers
01-24-2010, 12:06 PM
I don't believe Avi killed Asmo; especialy not by balefiring. In tFoH, chapter 6, you can read that Rand can feel that balefire has been used, even quite a long time afterwards and the second time he didn't use it at full power. Moiraine could feel it as well.
Besides, why didn't Mat's ter'angreal get cold when Asmo was killed. I think it was because Asmo was killed in TAR or Finnland.

Terez
01-24-2010, 02:36 PM
They can only either sense:

1. The residue of the balefire, which requires that you be right in front of where it was used. Residue fades before long; Moiraine acted like it was a big deal that she could 'still sense' the residue of Rand's balefire when he used it against the Darkhounds.

2. The amount of balefire is large enough that you can actually feel the Pattern warping.

rand
01-24-2010, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by nameless
Rand's distrust for "Nateal" was hardly a secret, given that Aviendha has overheard Rand threatening to kill the man at least once.
Actually, this shows that Natael obviously had some kind of negative influence over Rand. If he wanted Natael to leave, Rand could easily have sent him away. If he wanted him dead, he could have easily killed him. Yet, in Avi's eyes, something was holding Rand back from this. This would logically lead to suspicions of blackmail at the very least.

As for the fact that Avi may have not known Natael could channel, I'm not so sure she did. In fact, I'm leaning against it. Everyone seems to think that Avi would have to know Natael was Asmo in order to kill him, but any threat to Rand and the Aiel should be eliminated, in her eyes.

Originally Posted by nameless
Would she keep his death a secret when her past reaction to any perceived threats to Rand has been to deal with them openly and tell him openly that he's an idiot for allowing them to get close to him in the first place?
Yes, as killing Rand's right hand man would likely force him to distrust the Aiel (not to mention Avi herself).

Originally Posted by nameless
Every case against every suspect is built on at least some circumstantial evidence but the number of assumptions necessary to build a case for Aviendha should put her pretty far down the list if not remove her entirely.
There's really not that much that needs to be assumed. Natael is a suspicious guy. It isn't too hard to assume Avi would see him as a threat. As for eliminating Avi from a 'who killed Asmo' list... there are very few other options that aren't eliminated due to in-book evidence and RJ quotes.

Originally Posted by Sodas
I don't know where you get that from. There is absolutely no reason to believe those Maidens would share ANY view with Aviendha at that moment. If she decided to leave the fountain area, they would have stopped her. That was their purpose there. They weren't there to talk and conspire to kill Asmodean when he left.
You don't think the overly protective Maidens would have noticed that Natael was a threat too? Why would they stop her? They're there to keep her from chasing after Trollocs in the streets of Caemlyn. If she walks fifty feet from the fountain to kill a man they all find suspicious, there would really be no reason to stop her.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Alternatively, one of those Maidens could have stuck a dagger (or a spear) into Asmodean's back herself. That would achieve the same result, yet keep Aviendha out of combat, just as they were supposed to do.
Yes, they were supposed to keep her out of combat. Assassinating a gleeman is not exactly combat, though.

As for why they would send Avi instead of killing Asmo with a spear... there are a few reasons I can think of:

1) They decided to play it safe. They may not have suspected Natael could channel, but dealing with a potentially dangerous darkfriend could still be risky. So, they send a channeler to kill him just in case.
*I know the Maidens would fearlesses have attacked Natael without Avi, but if he had killed one, it would be pretty suspicious to Rand if a Maiden who was in the courtyard died after the battle.

2)They sent Avi to kill Natael because she can use the power to kill him so that it would not cast suspicion on the Maidens if he was later found. Also, if they all knew Avi could use balefire, they would have sent her just for that--no body to hide at all.

Originally Posted by Wantanswers
I don't believe Avi killed Asmo; especialy not by balefiring. In tFoH, chapter 6, you can read that Rand can feel that balefire has been used, even quite a long time afterwards and the second time he didn't use it at full power. Moiraine could feel it as well.
Besides, why didn't Mat's ter'angreal get cold when Asmo was killed. I think it was because Asmo was killed in TAR or Finnland.
He tried to make the second balefire less--it says right after that that didn;t quite work. If Avi used a very small amount of balefire, Rand may not have felt it. Also, he had just balefired Rahvin, so anything he felt he would have attributed to that.

Mat's ter'angreal only goes cold if someone channels directly at him.

As for Asmo being killed in TAR or Finnland--I'll admit, it's possible. I believe Avi is the best choice, but aside from her only Slayer and Lanfear seem to fit (aside from contradicting some RJ quotes, but that can somewhat be gotten around for both).

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2010, 03:51 PM
Yes, they were supposed to keep her out of combat. Assassinating a gleeman is not exactly combat, though.No, it isn't, you are right about that:
He had only the creaking of wardrobe doors for warning. He spun, knives coming out of his sleeves and leaving his hands in the same motion. The first blade took the throat of a fat, balding man with a dagger in his hand; the man stumbled back, blood bubbling around his clutching fingers as he tried to cry out.
Spinning on his bad leg threw Thom's other blade off, though; the knife stuck in the right shoulder of a heavily muscled man with scars on his face, who was climbing out of the other wardrobe. The big man's knife dropped from a hand that suddenly would not do what he wanted, and he lumbered for the door.
Before he could take a second step, Thom produced another knife and slashed him across the back of his leg. The big man yelled and stumbled, and Thom seized a handful of greasy hair, slamming his face against the wall beside the door; the man screamed again as the knife hilt sticking out of his shoulder hit the door.
Thom thrust the blade in his hand to within an inch of the man's dark eye. The scars on the big man's face gave him a hard look, but he stared at the point without blinking and did not move a muscle. The fat man, lying half in the wardrobe, kicked a last kick and was still.Still, close enough to not make all that much of a difference, is it?

Terez
01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
As for the fact that Avi may have not known Natael could channel, I'm not so sure she did. In fact, I'm leaning against it. Everyone seems to think that Avi would have to know Natael was Asmo in order to kill him, but any threat to Rand and the Aiel should be eliminated, in her eyes.
I think she had to know that he could channel to have felt obligated to be the one to kill him. She was allowed to participate in the Battle of Cairhien because she is not yet a Wise One, though she is no longer technically a Maiden. But if they didn't know Natael could channel, then there was no reason for Aviendha to break custom. At the time, the Wise Ones hadn't yet participated in battle (they didn't do that until Dumai's Wells), but since Aviendha was not yet a Wise One, she was the perfect candidate to kill Asmodean.

Sodas
01-24-2010, 06:25 PM
You don't think the overly protective Maidens would have noticed that Natael was a threat too?

No, because Natael is Rand's gleeman who Rand purposefully brought with him to Caemlyn. That speaks of confidence by Rand, which the Aiel must keep or earn Toh.

Why would they stop her?

Because she would have had to leave the fountain area to kill Natael, and the quote says plainly that the escort was keeping her in that fountain area. One side hallway, and she could sneak back to the fighting.


They're there to keep her from chasing after Trollocs in the streets of Caemlyn. If she walks fifty feet from the fountain to kill a man they all find suspicious, there would really be no reason to stop her.


Fifty feet? That's oversimplifying. Its clear that Asmodean exited the fountain areas and was walking the hallways, out of visual range. No way would the maiden's allow Aviendha to walk the halls.

rand
01-24-2010, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Still, close enough to not make all that much of a difference, is it?
Not really... I would not call Aviendha balefiring Asmo before he has time to say more than two short words "combat." Thom's would-be assassins could not do this, and thus did have to physically attack him. This would be combat, yes, but the two scenarios really aren't related except that they involve assassinating people.

Originally Posted by Terez
But if they didn't know Natael could channel, then there was no reason for Aviendha to break custom.
Just to clarify, you're saying that any Maiden could have killed Natael if they thought he was just a random darkfriend? If so, like I said before, there are several reasons Avi could have been picked out to do it (mainly, why take a risk--just kill him by channeling. Balefiring him would also eliminate the need to hide the body).

Originally Posted by Sodas
No, because Natael is Rand's gleeman who Rand purposefully brought with him to Caemlyn. That speaks of confidence by Rand, which the Aiel must keep or earn Toh.
Just because Rand apparently trusts Natael does not mean the Maidens simply ignore their suspicions and figure Rand must be right. We know from countless examples that the Maidens think they know what's best for Rand, and that he is as clueless as a child.

Originally Posted by Sodas
Because she would have had to leave the fountain area to kill Natael, and the quote says plainly that the escort was keeping her in that fountain area. One side hallway, and she could sneak back to the fighting.
The quote does not say the Maidens were confining her specifically to that courtyard. They were there to keep her from running off to kill Trollocs. If she had gone roaming they may have followed her, but just to make sure she did not leave the palace completely.

Also, if she said "Hey, I'm gonna go kill that guy--I'll be right back," the Maidens would have likely let her go alone. They trust Avi. If she ran away on them, it would ruin their trust and deeply shame her because she broke a promise. It's like captured gai'shain. The Aiel don't even bother to really keep a watch on them, because they know they will not violate ji'e'toh by running away and shaming themselves.

Originally Posted by Sodas
Fifty feet? That's oversimplifying. Its clear that Asmodean exited the fountain areas and was walking the hallways, out of visual range. No way would the maiden's allow Aviendha to walk the halls.
Yes, it was oversimplifying a bit, but not by much. His PoV takes 30-45 seconds to read at most. It's 99% Asmo's thoughts, meaning it probably took place over a 10 second span of time max. How far could he have possibly gone in 10 seconds?

It is not clear that he was walking the halls. Only two points of reference are given:

1) He "drifted away" from Mat and Avi--implying that he wasn't even moving very fast.

2) He "pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry." This seems to indicate a door off of the courtyard. If he was in a hallway, he would already be searching for the pantry, not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't have had to open any doors until he got there.

Yellowbeard
01-24-2010, 10:55 PM
we could still get a prologue scene that starts before TGS ended...graendal just finishing up a romp w/ one of her pretty's and a messenger comes in. "message for you, ma'am"...

guy comes in, she compels him, discovers al'Thor is very close and thinks "blood and ashes, i haven't been this close to him since i snuffed out asmo while trying to escape caemlyn."

of course, i still think taim got into caemlyn sooner than we know about and off'd asmo.

Sodas
01-24-2010, 11:00 PM
Just because Rand apparently trusts Natael does not mean the Maidens simply ignore their suspicions and figure Rand must be right. We know from countless examples that the Maidens think they know what's best for Rand, and that he is as clueless as a child.

That's your opinion.

No way do I think the Maiden's are going to murder Rand's man in cold blood over suspicion. That would be committing a terrible crime for an Aiel, particularly since we now know (thanks to TGS) that Aviendha had no clue it was actually Asmodean or a Forsaken posing as Natael. Natael was unarmed and a wetland gleeman. It would bring Aviendha and the Maiden's terrible shame in killing him particularly since he had no weapon and no trial. Suspicions or not.

The quote does not say the Maidens were confining her specifically to that courtyard.

Didn't the quote say she wouldn't have been "down there" aka. the courtyard, if not for the Maidens.

Besides, who says even the Palace was that safe? Remember, Rand Traveled in alone to kill Rahvin, and then ran back outside to Aviendha. He didn't search the Palace. He moved away from Aviendha to think, but still kept an eye on them. The Palace could still have been searched for Fades until the Aiel felt it sufficiently safe. So aren't you assuming that the Maiden's would let Aviendha scroll through the Palace giving her even a chance at confronting a Fade?

They were there to keep her from running off to kill Trollocs. If she had gone roaming they may have followed her, but just to make sure she did not leave the palace completely.

No Rand, they would escort her wherever she went.

Also, if she said "Hey, I'm gonna go kill that guy--I'll be right back," the Maidens would have likely let her go alone.

No. If she said she was about to go kill Natael, the Maiden would have followed her at the very least. That, I repeat, was their job. That is what an escort does. They stay with you no matter what. Even in the unlikely scenario that she would talk to the Maiden's about what she was about to do, I find it absurd to think they would just do nothing, and say nothing to anyone we've seen to this point about it.


I don't know how this scenario is really plausible to begin with. Why not kill Natael when Rand first left the room. If it was ok with the escort (and even Mat?), why not kill Natael as soon as Rand left the courtyard? Aviendha didn't shown any hint of wanting to kill Asmodean during that time period.

The moment of opportunity came when Rand stopped looking from his window at the courtyard.

Aviendha was not aware of Rand at all. She talked with Mat, unaware that Rand had actually stopped watching them. It was only by that chance that Asmodean was actually able to leave the fountain to look for the pantry without anyone really seeing him leave. That is the opportunity that allowed Asmodean to be murdered unnoticed. Not just that Asmodean left the room.

Yes, it was oversimplifying a bit, but not by much. His PoV takes 30-45 seconds to read at most. It's 99% Asmo's thoughts, meaning it probably took place over a 10 second span of time max. How far could he have possibly gone in 10 seconds?

Enough to walk into the hallways where the walls were scarred by Balefire. He walked out of the courtyard, down maybe one hall, and turned to open a pantry. Roughly 30-45 seconds, agreed, but he did walk down A hallway that is seperate from the courtyard area.

If 10 second, you are suggesting this all happens in the courtyard, are you suggesting that Mat would have over heard Aviendha wanting to kill Natael. So how come Mat doesn't know Aviendha went after Natael that day to kill him? Or was it all done by signing. Better question becomes, how could anyone concieve that Aviendha signaled to the Maiden's, got approval, and then move to the other side of that doorway that Asmodean was about to open, all in a 10 second time span max...

Back to the point, Aviendha didn't kill Asmodean.
The only people with the opportunity to be in those halls, who could have overheard Asmodean playing his harp as well, besides Rand's forces, where Rahvin's Darkfriends posed as minor lords and merchants, which Rand allowed temporarily to be unbothered. Darkfriends like Lord Elegar and Mazrim Taim.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 03:04 AM
Not really... I would not call Aviendha balefiring Asmo before he has time to say more than two short words "combat." Thom's would-be assassins could not do this, and thus did have to physically attack him. This would be combat, yes, but the two scenarios really aren't related except that they involve assassinating people.Is your idea that she knew balefire based on anything other than a wish for her to know balefire?
We know (from her first meeting with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve) that the Aiel knew the name 'balefire' but did not know anything more about it than that it was something that AS did.

We also know that the only time she saw it used was before she had started to channel, so that she couldn't recognise it. Furthermore, at that time it was mixed in with two other weaves (from Egwene and Elayne), seriously messing up things. And not even Nynaeve, who used the balefire then, knew what it was.

So, first: how would she have know how to use it, and second: how would she have known what properties it had?

Just to clarify, you're saying that any Maiden could have killed Natael if they thought he was just a random darkfriend? If so, like I said before, there are several reasons Avi could have been picked out to do it (mainly, why take a risk--just kill him by channeling. Balefiring him would also eliminate the need to hide the body).The (rather obvious) risk would be that channeling might alert Rand, while using a knife wouldn't. For all they knew, Rand had already Warded the palace, so that he would be alerted if someone channeled in it. Just as Sammael had done with the whole of Illian.

Just because Rand apparently trusts Natael does not mean the Maidens simply ignore their suspicions and figure Rand must be right. We know from countless examples that the Maidens think they know what's best for Rand, and that he is as clueless as a child.We also know that they try to convince him, instead of simply usurping the authority of a clan chief and taking decisions for all Aiel themselves.
Killing one of Rand's advisors would rather obviously have been something that required the authority of the Car'a'carn in anything but self defense situations.


Bottom line:
If they had known he was a DF, then they would have shown the evidence to Rand. Possibly after killing Asmodean.
If they didn't know that he was a DF, then this would be relevant:
In the Three-fold Land, a gleeman was allowed anything short of murder without being called down for it.

rand
01-25-2010, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
we could still get a prologue scene that starts before TGS ended...graendal just finishing up a romp w/ one of her pretty's and a messenger comes in. "message for you, ma'am"...

guy comes in, she compels him, discovers al'Thor is very close and thinks "blood and ashes, i haven't been this close to him since i snuffed out asmo while trying to escape caemlyn."

of course, i still think taim got into caemlyn sooner than we know about and off'd asmo.
Graendal is more or less eliminated by a number of RJ quotes. The killer should easily be found out right then, at the end of FoH. We've barely even seen Graendal at this point. There's nothing to suggest she would kill Asmo (aside from the fact he betrayed the forsaken, but this makes her no more likely than any of the others). Also, RJ has said that very few people have correctly guessed who killed Asmo. Graendal is by far the most popular choice, which, in my mind, eliminates her completely.

Originally Posted by Sodas
That's your opinion.

No way do I think the Maiden's are going to murder Rand's man in cold blood over suspicion. That would be committing a terrible crime for an Aiel, particularly since we now know (thanks to TGS) that Aviendha had no clue it was actually Asmodean or a Forsaken posing as Natael. Natael was unarmed and a wetland gleeman. It would bring Aviendha and the Maiden's terrible shame in killing him particularly since he had no weapon and no trial. Suspicions or not.
It's my opinion that the Maidens don't trust Rand more than they would trust a child? They almost never trust his judgment unless browbeaten into it. Most of the Maidens respect him, true, but they also treat him like he's ten. They simply don't think he's capable of making his own decisions.

Even if it did violate ji'e'toh, Avi could just ask all the Maidens to beat her for a couple of hers, and in Aiel views, she would be completely free of any crimes.

Originally Posted by Sodas
Didn't the quote say she wouldn't have been "down there" aka. the courtyard, if not for the Maidens.

Besides, who says even the Palace was that safe? Remember, Rand Traveled in alone to kill Rahvin, and then ran back outside to Aviendha. He didn't search the Palace. He moved away from Aviendha to think, but still kept an eye on them. The Palace could still have been searched for Fades until the Aiel felt it sufficiently safe. So aren't you assuming that the Maiden's would let Aviendha scroll through the Palace giving her even a chance at confronting a Fade?
She would have been "down there"--but as opposed to fighting. Not opposed to beeing somewhere else in the palace.

They could have searched the palace between the two scenes. I don't think it says anywhere how much time passed. Also, Rand never ran into any Trollocs or Fades inside the palace, and it seems as though all of them were used to attack the Aiel outside.

Originally Posted by Sodas
I don't know how this scenario is really plausible to begin with. Why not kill Natael when Rand first left the room. If it was ok with the escort (and even Mat?), why not kill Natael as soon as Rand left the courtyard? Aviendha didn't shown any hint of wanting to kill Asmodean during that time period.

The moment of opportunity came when Rand stopped looking from his window at the courtyard.

Aviendha was not aware of Rand at all. She talked with Mat, unaware that Rand had actually stopped watching them. It was only by that chance that Asmodean was actually able to leave the fountain to look for the pantry without anyone really seeing him leave. That is the opportunity that allowed Asmodean to be murdered unnoticed. Not just that Asmodean left the room.
She didn't kill him right then because both Mat and Rand were watching. It is quite possible Avi was keeping an eye on Rand. Even if she wasn't, another Maiden could have signaled to her when he left the window. Avi being "unaware" of much of anything doesn't seem likely...

Originally Posted by Sodas
Enough to walk into the hallways where the walls were scarred by Balefire. He walked out of the courtyard, down maybe one hall, and turned to open a pantry. Roughly 30-45 seconds, agreed, but he did walk down A hallway that is seperate from the courtyard area.
It never says he was in a hallway. The balefired walls could have been anywhere around the courtyard. Also, doorways in halls generally lead to rooms. Asmo was looking for the pantry, the door he opened wasn't it. Unless he was planning on opening every room in the palace in his search for the pantry, there would be no need for him to open any doors until he got there. Thus, the door he opens is a door lead off the courtyard and into the palace.
Originally Posted by Sodas
If 10 second, you are suggesting this all happens in the courtyard, are you suggesting that Mat would have over heard Aviendha wanting to kill Natael. So how come Mat doesn't know Aviendha went after Natael that day to kill him? Or was it all done by signing. Better question becomes, how could anyone concieve that Aviendha signaled to the Maiden's, got approval, and then move to the other side of that doorway that Asmodean was about to open, all in a 10 second time span max...
If the Maidens were in on it, they would know what her following Natael must mean, and wouldn't try to stop her. There would be no need for signaling. Avi, being Aiel, could easily have gone in a different door that opened into the same hallway and went over the door Natael was heading toward.

Originally Posted by Sodas
Back to the point, Aviendha didn't kill Asmodean.
The only people with the opportunity to be in those halls, who could have overheard Asmodean playing his harp as well, besides Rand's forces, where Rahvin's Darkfriends posed as minor lords and merchants, which Rand allowed temporarily to be unbothered. Darkfriends like Lord Elegar and Mazrim Taim.
So you think Avi's out, but that Lord Elegar did it? He isn't obvious, can't channel, etc.

As for Taim, he isn't a viable suspect until he appears in LoC, by which point Asmo's killer should have been already discovered (by the reader).

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Is your idea that she knew balefire based on anything other than a wish for her to know balefire?
We know (from her first meeting with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve) that the Aiel knew the name 'balefire' but did not know anything more about it than that it was something that AS did.

We also know that the only time she saw it used was before she had started to channel, so that she couldn't recognise it. Furthermore, at that time it was mixed in with two other weaves (from Egwene and Elayne), seriously messing up things. And not even Nynaeve, who used the balefire then, knew what it was.

So, first: how would she have know how to use it, and second: how would she have known what properties it had?
Avi could have known how to use balefire without knowing that it was balefire. As for how she could have learned it, you said it yourself. Nynaeve learned it randomly without knowing what it was, why not Avi? Avi had already shown a knack for discovering things at random, such as traveling.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
The (rather obvious) risk would be that channeling might alert Rand, while using a knife wouldn't. For all they knew, Rand had already Warded the palace, so that he would be alerted if someone channeled in it. Just as Sammael had done with the whole of Illian.
I don't remember, but did Avi know that Rand could sense saidar? Either way, unless she was in the room with him, he probably wouldn't have felt it. Also, does Avi know Rand can make wards that detect channeling? If she didn't know either of these things, than there would be no reason to go ahead with it.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Killing one of Rand's advisors would rather obviously have been something that required the authority of the Car'a'carn in anything but self defense situations.
Not necessarily. If Avi thought Rand was at risk, but knew Rand wouldn't allow her to kill Natael if she asked, she would take matters into her own hands and kill Natael. Would this be the wrong thing to do according to ji'e'toh? Who knows, but like I said earlier, she could punish herself without having to ever tell Rand about it.

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
If they had known he was a DF, then they would have shown the evidence to Rand. Possibly after killing Asmodean.
If they didn't know that he was a DF, then this would be relevant:
Like I said, it could have all been accomplished without telling Rand.

If they didn't know he was a DF, they still knew he was a suspicious man who put Rand and the Aiel at risk. Assuming they still believed Natael was a real gleeman after all that, threating the car'a'carn is a likely exception for killing a gleeman.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 10:48 AM
But did they have any reason to think Natael was threatening Rand?
The mere fact that they argued is not enough, since Rand and Aviendha also often argued. And Rand and Mat too, for that matter. So did Rand and Moiraine, until Moiraine caught onto the "fetch the slippers" trick. And Rand and Egwene argued too, for that matter. Come to think of it, just about anyone who was close to him argued with Rand, with the notable exception of Rhuarc.
Which, when you think about it, makes Rhuarc a lot more suspicious than the gleeman.

rand
01-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Yes, they did. Natael was constantly with Rand, probably more than even Avi. He was also always acting suspiciously. When Rand spends more time with a random gleeman than with all the Aiel put together, it would look as though Rand was listening to Natael's advice over the Aiel's. This potentially threatens the Aiel's relationship with the car'a'carn, forcing them to take action before Rand turns against them or something. We can see that Rand kicks Avi out of a room if he would rather talk to Natael, which is very suspicious behavior. Also, Rand makes his anger with Natael clear several times, but he never acts on it, likely prompting the Aiel to think Natael is blackmailing him, or has some kind of sway over him.

Daekyras
01-25-2010, 11:32 AM
with the notable exception of Rhuarc.
Which, when you think about it, makes Rhuarc a lot more suspicious than the gleeman.

Yes, Yes it does..

Casabamelon
01-25-2010, 01:16 PM
I have a hard time reconciling Asmodean's last words with Aviendha being the killer.

I suppose I can understand him going "You?", maybe, since he just left her at the fountain. But what about "No!"? Why would he have a reason to think she's going to kill him. He can't see her weaves, so all he'd know is someone nearby (probably, but not necessarily, her) was holding the source. Why would he think she was about to kill him? Why would he have enough time to say "You? No!" but not counter attack?
________
Gay bears (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/613/bears/videos/1)

rand
01-25-2010, 02:26 PM
He could be afraid for several reasons.

1)Asmo suspected Avi/the Aiel in general were on to him. Avi especially has witnessed quite a bit of suspicious behavior from him.

2)He was surprised to see her behind a doorway when he had just seen her behind him at the fountain. Obviously this would imply she followed him, and due to option 1, knew it wasn't just to say hi.

3)All he got out was the "You?" before she balefired him, giving him the chance to only shout "No!" before he died.

Yellowbeard
01-25-2010, 04:07 PM
perhaps Asmo was killed by a bubble of evil.

DO ate mexican, let one off, and then it floated along the pattern until it burst in that pantry.

asmo walked in, and the bubble had taken the form of his long dead mother. recognizing the smell, though, asmo knew it was a bubble of evil from the DO after having mexican, as he had delivered stuffed jalapenos and ice peppers to the bore on more than one occasion prior to his getting trapped into serving rand.

he said "you?" in surprise that the DO could float one that far, and screamed "no!" when the vision of long dead mother reached out and took him!

Kimon
01-25-2010, 04:17 PM
"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. 'You? No?'"

I find it very difficult to reconcile the implication of this passage with the argument of Aviendha as the assassin. We are told that he "drifted away" from her and Mat (who were both ignoring him), and then ran into his murderer ahead of him. How can this but serve to authenticate her alibi? Do you think she turned to Mat (and the Maidens), said something like don't mind me a I randomly decide to weave this gateway, she "travels" ahead of Asmodean, kills him, disposes of his body- either by balefiring him (a weave she probably doesn't know) or by dumping him in TAR (which would require that she know how to physically enter TAR- unlikely), then she returns to Mat??

If both her means and her opportunity are tenuous, what of her motive? Sure Natael is a bit shifty and suspicious, but how does this make him any more a threat than any of the numerous lickspittle Tairen and Cairhienin nobles that the Aiel all leave untouched. It would seem this theory would require that she is certain that he is a Forsaken- something which Moiraine knew (And no surprise that, after all her mentioned Karaethon Cycle stanza had long foreshadowed his chaining of a shadowsworn from the city lost and forsaken. Moiraine had originally tried to interpret this with Sammael and Illian, but she is too clever not to have immediately thought of this when Rand returned from Rhuidean with Natael. We are given no hints however that anyone else (here I am thinking most especially of Egwene, though by extension that reasonably also includes Aviendha) pieced that together. Unless Aviendha is nigh certain that Natael was at least a DF, it is hard to imagine why she would chose to kill him right at that time, but even that does not help to explain how she could have killed him. She simply doesn't make sense as the assassin.

Frankly, I still think that Taim is the best candidate. His potential motive (the necessity to remove Asmodean so as to take his place at Rand's side) does not become clear until the next book, but he is explicitly mentioned in the paragraphs immediately proceeding, and these paragraphs do both place Taim proximate to Caemlyn (which of course is why Bashere was there to discuss him), and Al'Thor mentions his intended amnesty. Couple this with the fact that we had already received hints of Taim's associations (from the captured black sisters in the Stone of Tear), and Taim seemed to pick up on traveling so quickly that it is not unreasonable to believe that he already knew it. Means, motive, opportunity.

Mind you, one could also come up with compelling arguments for Graendal, Slayer, and Shadar Haran also, but Aviendha seems as stretched an argument as those for Lanfear/Cyndane and for Moiraine. It would be far more annoying to be told that any of those three is the killer than to never find out at all.

Terez
01-25-2010, 04:17 PM
He can't see her weaves, so all he'd know is someone nearby (probably, but not necessarily, her) was holding the source.
That would be enough, I think. And he would know it was her, since a female has to be pretty close for a male to sense her holding the Power, and he had no reason to think there were any other channeling females around.

rand
01-25-2010, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Kimon
I find it very difficult to reconcile the implication of this passage with the argument of Aviendha as the assassin. We are told that he "drifted away" from her and Mat (who were both ignoring him), and then ran into his murderer ahead of him. How can this but serve to authenticate her alibi? Do you think she turned to Mat (and the Maidens), said something like don't mind me a I randomly decide to weave this gateway, she "travels" ahead of Asmodean, kills him, disposes of his body- either by balefiring him (a weave she probably doesn't know) or by dumping him in TAR (which would require that she know how to physically enter TAR- unlikely), then she returns to Mat??
Most of this was explained before in this topic. To condense it... I find it extremly unlikely that Avi was "ignoring" Natael. After Natael leaves, heading for a door off of the courtyard, Avi gets up, goes quickly (remember, Natael was just "drifting") to another door that opened into the same hallway as Natael's door did, and got behind the door that Natael was heading towards. She immediately balefires him (having learned the weave either from Nynaeve or on her own), then heads back to the courtyard. The whole scene lasts about 30 seconds tops, from when Natael left the fountain to when Avi gets back to it after killing him.

Originally Posted by Kimon
If both her means and her opportunity are tenuous, what of her motive? Sure Natael is a bit shifty and suspicious, but how does this make him any more a threat than any of the numerous lickspittle Tairen and Cairhienin nobles that the Aiel all leave untouched. It would seem this theory would require that she is certain that he is a Forsaken- something which Moiraine knew (And no surprise that, after all her mentioned Karaethon Cycle stanza had long foreshadowed his chaining of a shadowsworn from the city lost and forsaken. Moiraine had originally tried to interpret this with Sammael and Illian, but she is too clever not to have immediately thought of this when Rand returned from Rhuidean with Natael. We are given no hints however that anyone else (here I am thinking most especially of Egwene, though by extension that reasonably also includes Aviendha) pieced that together. Unless Aviendha is nigh certain that Natael was at least a DF, it is hard to imagine why she would chose to kill him right at that time, but even that does not help to explain how she could have killed him. She simply doesn't make sense as the assassin.
As was also mentioned, Avi saw Natael as gaining more influence over Rand than she/the Aiel had. Anyone like that had to be eliminated as it presented a threat not only to Rand but to all the Aiel as well. This would not require Avi to know Natael could channel, let alone know that he was a forsaken. As to why she chose that specific time, there was no opportunity to both kill him before this and not have it have been obvious that she or the Aiel killed him.

Originally Posted by Kimon
Frankly, I still think that Taim is the best candidate. His potential motive (the necessity to remove Asmodean so as to take his place at Rand's side) does not become clear until the next book, but he is explicitly mentioned in the paragraphs immediately proceeding, and these paragraphs do both place Taim proximate to Caemlyn (which of course is why Bashere was there to discuss him), and Al'Thor mentions his intended amnesty. Couple this with the fact that we had already received hints of Taim's associations (from the captured black sisters in the Stone of Tear), and Taim seemed to pick up on traveling so quickly that it is not unreasonable to believe that he already knew it. Means, motive, opportunity.
Taim was not really obvious at this point in the story, which the killer should be, according to RJ. Assuming Taim is a darkfriend, would he dare kill one of the DO's Chosen? Also, Asmo recognized his killer; there's nothing to suggest that he ever met Taim (that I remember, at least).

Originally Posted by Kimon
Mind you, one could also come up with compelling arguments for Graendal, Slayer, and Shadar Haran also, but Aviendha seems as stretched an argument as those for Lanfear/Cyndane and for Moiraine. It would be far more annoying to be told that any of those three is the killer than to never find out at all.
-Graendal is not obvious as of the end of FoH. Plus she is apparently dead, so she can't reveal that she killed Asmo in a PoV (as RJ has hinted).

-Slayer cannot channel, would not have been able to know Asmo was in Caemlyn, and did not admit to having killed Asmo when thinking back on killing the 2 BA sisters in the Stone (the perfect time to have mentioned it).

-Shadar Haran was not even introduced as of FoH, so there is no possibility it was him.

While I don't consider Moiraine a possibility at all, Lanfear is probably the nest-best choice, in my opinion.

Kimon
01-25-2010, 07:04 PM
Most of this was explained before in this topic. To condense it... I find it extremly unlikely that Avi was "ignoring" Natael. After Natael leaves, heading for a door off of the courtyard, Avi gets up, goes quickly (remember, Natael was just "drifting") to another door that opened into the same hallway as Natael's door did, and got behind the door that Natael was heading towards. She immediately balefires him (having learned the weave either from Nynaeve or on her own), then heads back to the courtyard. The whole scene lasts about 30 seconds tops, from when Natael left the fountain to when Avi gets back to it after killing him.


As was also mentioned, Avi saw Natael as gaining more influence over Rand than she/the Aiel had. Anyone like that had to be eliminated as it presented a threat not only to Rand but to all the Aiel as well. This would not require Avi to know Natael could channel, let alone know that he was a forsaken. As to why she chose that specific time, there was no opportunity to both kill him before this and not have it have been obvious that she or the Aiel killed him.


Taim was not really obvious at this point in the story, which the killer should be, according to RJ. Assuming Taim is a darkfriend, would he dare kill one of the DO's Chosen? Also, Asmo recognized his killer; there's nothing to suggest that he ever met Taim (that I remember, at least).


-Graendal is not obvious as of the end of FoH. Plus she is apparently dead, so she can't reveal that she killed Asmo in a PoV (as RJ has hinted).

-Slayer cannot channel, would not have been able to know Asmo was in Caemlyn, and did not admit to having killed Asmo when thinking back on killing the 2 BA sisters in the Stone (the perfect time to have mentioned it).

-Shadar Haran was not even introduced as of FoH, so there is no possibility it was him.

While I don't consider Moiraine a possibility at all, Lanfear is probably the nest-best choice, in my opinion.

It is possible that she was "ignoring" him, but there is nothing either explicit or implicit in the text to demonstrate this. It is supposition. Regarding your comment about previous explanations, yes, I've read them, but clearly I have seen nothing in support of Aviendha that I find convincing, hence my decision to write up my own opinion on the matter. Clearly you see no problem in Aviendha somehow being at one moment behind him, and surrounded by Mat and watching Maidens, then magically appearing in front of him, alone. Obviously I think this is a rather large problem to address.

Concerning your point on simply killing him out of fear of him gaining too much influence, this would make more sense if Aviendha was killing other wetlanders who were doing the same- she isn't. If she knew he was a DF that problem is removed, but we have no way of knowing if she knew. That the shadow has motives for killing him is obvious, not so for Aviendha. Indeed the only thing that I would say even points to Aviendha is her proximate mention in the text, but the circumstances therein strike me as providing more arguments against rather than for her.

I don't see how Taim could be any less obvious than Aviendha. He is mentioned in the same passage, which calls him to attention. He is a rogue male channeler and we are told about the amnesty. The pieces of his puzzle become clearer later, but they are there to be seen, if in hazier form. Would he dare? Why not? Asmodean is persona non grata. If he was the assassin, it could well have been under orders.

I actually felt that Graendal was the most obvious at the end of FoH. I'll agree with what you've stated here in part though, only because I think it possible that the small hint was Graendal's dead, so she probably didn't do it. I still included her as likely alternatives though because I still think it possible that she was the suspicious female servant that Rand crossed paths with during his duel with Rahvin.

We have no way of knowing if Slayer knew Asmodean's location, but his abilities to enter TAR certainly allow for his quick dispatch from elsewhere to carry out the hit. The fact that he can't channel doesn't really matter. Surprise would be his weapon. I still think that he is quite a strong candidate.

Shadar Haran first shows up in EotW, though we only get his name in the beginning of LoC. Whether or not he would be obvious is open to debate.

Concerning Lanfear, she is obvious if you think that she is still alive at the end of FoH. The problem with her arises in later books, as it requires coming up with some way that she gets out of Finnland prior to being reincarnated into the body of Cyndane, at which point Asmodean wouldn’t recognize her. If you however assumed that she was still alive, then it is reasonable, at least, at that point in the series, to see her as both a viable, and a potentially obvious candidate.

(Sorry for putting this as one extended quote response rather than multi-quote, but when I did that initially, then previewed it, it didn't come out right.)

Terez
01-25-2010, 07:06 PM
There are some other points in this post that i wanted to address, but these will do for now:

-Graendal is not obvious as of the end of FoH. Plus she is apparently dead, so she can't reveal that she killed Asmo in a PoV (as RJ has hinted).
1. RJ said he was being facetious with the 'intuitively obvious to the most casual observer' thing. He did confirm that we have 'enough' evidence to figure it out as of the time of the murder, but there's no telling what RJ meant by that. Graendal had been seen, in the alliance meeting with Lanfear. So, those who were allied with Lanfear could technically be considered to be more likely than other Forsaken, and Sammael was the only other one to survive that alliance. Also, Asmodean hints that he was hanging out with Graendal in Arad Doman for a short time, so there could be who knows what between them. Graendal is boring to me as a suspect, but she is viable enough, and the most likely of the Forsaken other than Lanfear (and even that is debatable, since we have no real reason to believe that Lanfear could have possibly done it).

2. Brandon need not reveal it in the killer's point of view, and he hinted that he might not.

3. We can still have a Graendal point of view in the next book because a) there are overlapping timelines, and b) she might possibly not be dead, and Brandon even hinted that there will definitely be a point of view that further illuminates the Graendal issue.

-Slayer cannot channel, would not have been able to know Asmo was in Caemlyn, and did not admit to having killed Asmo when thinking back on killing the 2 BA sisters in the Stone (the perfect time to have mentioned it).
The latter is weak evidence, and if Slayer did it, he did it on orders, with someone to tell him where Asmodean was so that he could kill him, like he did in Far Madding with Rand and Min (though he got the wrong room).

-Shadar Haran was not even introduced as of FoH, so there is no possibility it was him.
Technically, he was introduced in book 1, at the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. Myrddraal don't smile, but this one did, and RJ confirmed that these earlier sightings of a smiling Fade were something like Shaidar Haran version 1.0. But we did not know who he was at the time, so he is indeed an unlikely candidate.

Terez
01-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Clearly you see no problem in Aviendha somehow being at one moment behind him, and surrounded by Mat and watching Maidens, then magically appearing in front of him, alone. Obviously I think this is a rather large problem to address.
Really? The Aiel are ninjas. This fact is exaggerated to the point of silliness in the books:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
PROLOGUE - The First Message

"Is there any point to this, my Lord?" Hal Moir asked. He was two years older than Jisao, and like many who did not wear the silver tower, he regretted not having been there. He would learn. "There isn’t a glimmer of Aielmen."

"You think not?" Without any hefting to give warning, Gawyn hurled the rock as hard as he could at the only bush close enough to hit, a scraggly thing. The rustle of dead leaves was the only sound, but the bush shook just a bit more than it should have, as though a man somehow hidden behind it had been struck in a tender place. Exclamations rose from the newer men; Jisao only eased his sword. "An Aiel, Hal, can hide in a fold in the ground you wouldn’t even stumble over." Not that Gawyn knew any more of Aiel than he read in books, but he had read every book he could find in the White Tower’s library by any man who had actually fought them, every book by any soldier who seemed to know what he was talking about. A man had to ready himself for the future, and it seemed the world’s future was war. "But if the Light pleases, there won’t be any fighting today."
Dropped in right after the murder, in case anyone doubted Aviendha could have pulled that off. ;)

Concerning your point on simply killing him out of fear of him gaining too much influence, this would make more sense if Aviendha was killing other wetlanders who were doing the same- she isn't. If she knew he was a DF that problem is removed, but we have no way of knowing if she knew.
So? We have no way of knowing a lot of things in the Asmodean discussion, with every suspect, and we have PLENTY of reason to believe that Aviendha COULD have easily known who he was.

That the shadow has motives for killing him is obvious, not so for Aviendha.
psssh, that's bullshit. She had every motive for killing him; he was a highly dangerous annoyance that caused Rand more stress anything else, and Rand stubbornly held on to him. If anything, the Dark One would have wanted to hang on to Asmodean - he has a prejudice against Third-Agers, and did not transmigrate Asmodean only because he could not - and though the Forsaken all could have killed him just for 'going over', why would they risk it with Rand right around the corner? It's not as if Asmodean was an actual threat to anyone.

I still think it possible that she was the suspicious female servant that Rand crossed paths with during his duel with Rahvin.
Even after RJ said that those were just servants and not relevant to the murder at all?

Aviendha was the only candidate that was ever 'obvious' to me. There were just too many times when too much was done or said in front of her, and too many indications that the Wise Ones and Moiraine went separate ways around the time that Moiraine suggested they stop eavesdropping on him. There is a great deal of motive coming from the Wise Ones, and Aviendha in particular, and it's even emphasized how Aviendha is in this in-between stage where it is still somewhat acceptable for her to engage in battle because she is not yet a Wise One.

Kimon
01-25-2010, 07:38 PM
Even after RJ said that those were just servants and not relevant to the murder at all?


mea culpa

Terez
01-25-2010, 08:11 PM
Yeah, I figured you just didn't know about that one...but the way you phrased it made me wonder. :D

Kimon
01-25-2010, 08:24 PM
Out of curiosity, what section of your quote database is it in? After you pointed out my mistake I reread (well, re-skimmed) the sections on Graendal, Asmodean, Sammael, miscellany, and darkfriends...and couldn't find it.

Terez
01-25-2010, 08:39 PM
It was in the Asmodean category. Try using CTRL-F in the future, instead of trying to skim through all of it:


ComicCon July 2004 - Jason Denzel reporting (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/ComicCon_2004_Wrap-Up_July_22-25%2C_2004)


Dara asked about some significant traits of the palace servants right before Asmodean was "taken". RJ replied that the servants were just servants and were in no way connected to the murder.

Kimon
01-25-2010, 08:42 PM
thanks

Terez
01-25-2010, 08:45 PM
no prob. I wasn't trying to be a smartass in the last post, btw. I just realized that it might come off that way.

Neilbert
01-25-2010, 08:53 PM
She had every motive for killing him; he was a highly dangerous annoyance that caused Rand more stress anything else, and Rand stubbornly held on to him.

Most people don't kill people who annoy their boyfriends.