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Terez
10-27-2009, 01:23 PM
For the last few days, I’ve only had access to one significant quote that proves the construct theory. Isa was going on about ‘this book proves Lews Therin is real’, which never really worried me, because Isa thought that ‘one soul, two personalities’ proved two soulers were right all along.

However, I asked someone from another forum who had a book to try to give me a quote that would sum up the Lews Therin plot in this book. This is what I got:

TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 – Veins of Gold

He realized – somehow – that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been. I almost danced when I got that email, because it’s exactly what the construct camp has been saying all along, what I have been saying. Rand’s conception that Lews Therin was another man in his head was wrong.

I’ve been gloating about it for a few days now, not even having read the book really past chapter 12. I skimmed 13-23, but only really got to read 22 and 23, because the Semirhage point of view caught my eye. So, Isa has been going on about how I need to read it so I can see how it proves Lews Therin is real, but I was never worried, for the aforementioned reasons. Isa wouldn’t believe construct if BS and Harriet told her it was true directly – she would just then accuse them of making it up, and that RJ intended for Lews Therin to be real.

Add that to the quote above, which completely sums up the construct theory, and it’s pure WIN. Of course, Isa has been trying to make it seem as if it supports her theory, but that is no surprise, since she still thinks that the two soulers won.

The quote above, while awesome, is only one tiny bit of the validation of the construct theory in this book – the ‘sum’ quote that I asked for. The conversation between Rand and Min in chapter 15 is the other side of the equation. This is the passage that sets up the Lews Therin climax.

You can see right off why Isa might believe that this is proof that Lews Therin is ‘real’. It’s essentially Rand saying what he has believed all along about Lews Therin. What the constructors have been harping on for all these years is that this is only what Rand believes about Lews Therin. It is not the truth. Up until now, it has always been ‘a matter of interpretation’. The constructors interpret a passage one way, and the real’ers interpret it another way.

But now, we have Min, who now knows about Lews Therin! First time we’ve had the opinion of someone else who actually knows about Lews Therin! And guess what?

Rand argues textbook real’er theory…..and Min argues textbook construct theory. Sometimes aloud, and sometimes thinking to herself. Those of you who are familiar with the debates we’ve been having will recognize this in the wording and the arguments that are made.

However…the most important thing is that Rand covers all of the usual bases for the real’ers – Semirhage was right, he’s really there, he talks to me and reacts to stuff, and even takes over sometimes. He obviously is representing the real’ers’ beliefs here – he has been the cause of that theory (which is not really even a theory, because it was always so obvious to everyone!) all along – and this is the kicker:

He defines ‘real’. We have been struggling to get the real’ers to define ‘real’ for a long time now, and they haven’t been able to do it in a way that doesn’t get bogged down with semantics. Rand got impatient with them, so he’s defined it for us so that we don’t have to argue about it any more:

TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 – A Place to Begin

“Semirhage was right,” Rand said. “I hear . . . things. A voice. The voice of Lews Therin, the Dragon. He speaks to me and responds to the world around me. Sometimes, he tries to seize saidin from me. And . . . and sometimes he succeeds. He’s wild, Min. Insane. But the things he can do with the One Power are amazing.”

He stared off into the distance. Min shivered. Light! He let the voice in his head wield the One Power? What did that mean? That he let the mad part of his brain take control?

He shook his head. “Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind, but Lews Therin knows things – things that I don’t. Things about history, about the One Power. You had a viewing of me that showed two people merging into one. That means that Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”

She walked over and sat next to him. “Rand, he’s you. Or you’re him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they’re remnants from who you were before.”

“No,” Rand said. “Min, he’s insane and I’m not. Besides, he failed. I won’t. I won’t do it, Min. I won’t hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won’t leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again.”

Three thousand years a “short time later”? She put her arms around him. “Does it matter?” she asked. “If there is another person, or if those are just memories from before, the information is useful.”

“Yes,” Rand said, seeming distant again. “But I’m afraid to use the One Power. When I do, I risk letting him take control. He can’t be trusted. He didn’t mean to kill her, but that doesn’t change the fact that he did. Light . . . Ilyena. . . .”

Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that is was the other person inside of them who did horrible things? I think that this is probably one of the most satisfying passages in WoT that I have ever read. Notice that Rand denies Min’s construct argument – that it’s just memories, and that Rand really is Lews Therin – for the same reasons that we have been saying all along are the reasons why Rand denies Lews Therin: Rand doesn’t want to accept that he was the one to kill Ilyena, that he might be the madman. Lews Therin is the madman. Min, like a true constructor, questions that as well. However…

Rand’s definition of ‘real’: “Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”

Lews Therin is ‘real’: Rand and Lews Therin are distinct; two people

From the climax of the book, and the final integration of Rand and Lews Therin:

TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 – Veins of Gold

He knew – somehow – that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been. Rand finally admits to himself that he was wrong about Lews Therin being 'real' - he defined 'real' as 'Lews Therin and I are distinct. Two people." But all along, they have been one man.


/real’ers

Davian93
10-27-2009, 01:36 PM
~blows brains out~

Yeah, I'm rereading and will get back to you. I don't know which side I'm on at this point.

Terez
10-27-2009, 01:40 PM
It's pretty cut and dried. Rand goes into all the details of what he thinks Lews Therin is. He agrees with the real'ers exactly. He defines 'real' as meaning that they are two distinct people, which is what the real'ers have believed all along (at least in the sense that Rand is speaking of). If 'real' means 'two distinct people' (which it does, according to our debates over the years), then 'real' was disproven when Rand said that he realized that they were not two men, and never had been.

There's just not any getting around that.

Jokeslayer
10-27-2009, 07:12 PM
I started off trying to argue against this, but ended up rambling a bit, really just thinking out loud. So sorry if this makes even less sense than usual.

"Men" is extremely ill-defined in all this.

Min manages to get something wrong within three lines of that quote starting. (When she says that Rand "lets" LTT wield saidin, which isn't at all what Rand said. She sees it as Rand's unconscious mind making the decision to let the voice take control because that's what she believes. So doesn't this boil down to "I'm right because Min says so, and we know Min's right because Min says so"? But then, if that is the case, and Min is wrong and LTT is real, how does the reintegration work? I guess it doesn't, which comes back to Min was right.)

Bah, I hate this theory. I still don't see why it matters (though I concede it probably does, I still don't see what a construct could do that a real LTT couldn't. Well, except for that reintegration thing, maybe, but since RJ could pretty much make the rules whatever he wants...)

Terez
10-27-2009, 07:34 PM
I started off trying to argue against this, but ended up rambling a bit, really just thinking out loud. So sorry if this makes even less sense than usual.

"Men" is extremely ill-defined in all this.The meaning of 'men' is obvious, especially in the context of the quote where Rand defines 'real'. It might be loosely defined, but we know enough to know that Rand was referring to them being 'distinct', or 'two people', or 'two men'. They all mean the same thing, quite obviously. That's why Rand knows that he will never hear the voice of Lews Therin again - that voice was part of the illusion that they were two men. That illusion is gone now, because Rand has accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own (integrated).

Min manages to get something wrong within three lines of that quote starting. She didn't get anything wrong - she just gave her interpretation of it. Since Rand's interpretation was obviously wrong, then it makes no difference what Rand said. Rand is a real'er; Min is a constructor. So Min was probably a lot closer to the truth than Rand. ;)

So doesn't this boil down to "I'm right because Min says so, and we know Min's right because Min says so"?
This isn't about what Min believes, though her arguments for the 'construct' idea are definitely gratifying. It's about Rand defining 'real', and then confirming later on that Lews Therin had never been 'real'.

I still don't see why it matters It only matters because it requires you to reevaluate Rand's entire plot arc, if you want to know what was really going on.

I still don't see what a construct could do that a real LTT couldn't. If Lews Therin is real (which we now know he was not), then everything is as it appears to be. If Lews Therin is a construct (which he was), then it was Rand doing these things all along. For example, in Knife of Dreams, it was Rand that wanted to kill himself after the Shadowspawn attack.

AbbeyRoad
10-27-2009, 09:19 PM
Also, if LTT was real, he could have been able to take over Rand's body. In fact, there were a lot of theories out there with LTT taking over Rand's body and sealing the bore, or LTT taking over Moridin's body... a whole bunch of crazy theories. LTT could do all of those things if he were a free entity.

However, if it was really Rand doing these things, then it's no longer possible. With the two integrated, these loony theories are no longer valid plot points, but it still is a huge measure of characterization both into Rand's sanity and overall mental state throughout the series.

Terez
10-27-2009, 09:25 PM
Also, the "Lews Therin will 'die' fulfilling the prophecies of Rand's death" theory is dead. :D

AbbeyRoad
10-27-2009, 09:27 PM
Thank God. I hated that theory.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:57 PM
Bullshit Terez: And again you are doing it. Saying what I should think.
Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”


you are saying = real is distinct. Nope, real is authentic. The way, LTT would have responded. The personality of LTT.
You cannot say Isa's definition of real is the same as Rand's definition of real.

Rand and LTT are the same Dragon Soul. So whatever LTT did in the age of legends. You could argue it's the same person. But that doesn't mean Rand didn't have two personalities in his head.

You still haven't explained the fact that Rand didn't think : the voice didn't sound like LTT at all.
That is not what happened. Rand saw all his lives, also as LTT and accepted what he (the soul) did at that time.


You also haven't explained why Rand could have become LTT, if it was only a false contstruct of LTT's memories and not his personality.

Isabel
10-27-2009, 11:58 PM
It's pretty cut and dried. Rand goes into all the details of what he thinks Lews Therin is. He agrees with the real'ers exactly. He defines 'real' as meaning that they are two distinct people, which is what the real'ers have believed all along (at least in the sense that Rand is speaking of). If 'real' means 'two distinct people' (which it does, according to our debates over the years), then 'real' was disproven when Rand said that he realized that they were not two men, and never had been.

There's just not any getting around that.

Terez: stop doing that. You can read back and see that we always meant that LTT was real in a sense of authentic.
Yeah, he could also do things.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 12:00 AM
Alright, here goes. This may not be a completely exhaustive list, but it's a very good start, if I may be so bold.

There are a few different hallmarks of the Rand/LTT interactions in this book. 1) Rand remembers something, and does not attribute this memory to LTT like he usually does. 2) Rand hears LTT's voice, and realizes/remarks on how it's more and more similar to his own these days. 3) Rand thinks something that is in-character for LTT's thoughts and memories, but the passage is clearly marked as Rand thinking it, not LTT.

Light! he thought. I'm losing control. Half the time, I don't know which voice is mine and which is his. - Rand, p.63
An example of Rand becoming increasingly incapable of telling the difference between his thoughts and LTT's.

Why, there might be another Jorlen Corbesan among the very men the Sea Folk tossed into the ocean!

He froze. Jorlen Corbesan had been one of the most talented Aes Sedai before the Breaking, a man who had crafted some of the most amazing ter'angreal Rand had ever seen. Except Rand had not seen them. Those were Lews Therin's memories, not his. - Rand, p.102
An instance of Rand remembering things that LTT experienced, not realizing it at first (as we've seen many times in previous books). As the book progresses, this occurs more often, but becomes more automatic - i.e., Rand doesn't realize these aren't "his" memories.

What would happen when he died? Wars and devastation to match the Breaking? He hadn't been able to help that last time, for his madness and grief at Ilyena's death had consumed him. Could he prevent something similar this time? Did he have a choice? - Rand, p.104
Rand thinking of himself as LTT, instead of hearing LTT's voice.

"The Great Lord can grant you sanity, you know," Moridin said.

"Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort," Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin's memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory. - p.237
The dream sequence was particularly interesting, as LTT's voice was gone but the memories all remained. Rand again spoke of himself as if he was LTT.


"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?" - p.238
Another example of Rand speaking as LTT.

"Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind, but Lews Therin knows things - things that I don't. Things about history, about the One Power. You had a viewing of me that showed two people merging into one. That means that Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He's real."

SHe walked over and sat next to him. "Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before."

"No," Rand said. "Min, he's insane and I'm not. Besides, he failed. I won't. I won't do it, Min. I won't hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won't leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again."

Three thousand years a "short time later"? She put her arms around him. "Does it matter?" she asked. "If there is another person, or if those are just memories from before, the information is useful."

"Yes," Rand said, seeming distant again. "But I'm afraid to use the One Power. When I do, I risk letting him take control. He can't be trusted. He didn't mean to kill her, but that doesn't change the fact that he did. Light... Ilyena..."

Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things? - p.242-3
Terez has already pointed out most of the salient points of this passage, but I retained it for completeness's sake.

We're in the box again! Lews Therin cried.

And suddenly, he was. He could see it, the black confines, crushing him. His body sore from repeated beatings, his mind frantic to remain sane. Lews Therin had been his only companion. It was one of the first times Rand could remember communicating with the madman. Lews Therin had started to respond to him only shortly before that day.

Rand hadn't been willing to see Lews Therin as part of himself. The mad part of himself, the part that could deal with the torture, if only because it was already so tortured. - p.350-1
A particularly interesting quote. Rand thinks of LTT as a part of himself - not in terms of being an incarnation from his past, but in terms of being a specific part of his mind. Which is, of course, the Construct theory in a nutshell.

How can we continue the list if we don't know the names! In war, we sought out the Maidens who had fallen. We found every one! The list is flawed! I can't continue!

It's not your list! Rand growled. It's mine, Lews Therin. MINE!

No! the madman sputtered. Who are you? It's mine! I made it. I can't continue now that they're dead. Oh, Light! Balefire? Why did we use balefire? I promised that I would never do that again... - p.654
And here, interestingly, we have an inversion of the earlier moments - LTT claiming Rand's memories as his own, and claiming to have thought things when we know Rand was the one who originally thought them.

It will be a mercy, Lews Therin whispered. Death is always a mercy. The madman didn't sound as crazy as he once had. In fact, his voice had started to sound an awful lot like Rand's own voice. - p.752
A continuation of the theme from the very first quote I posted.

Why can't I be strong enough? He didn't know if the thought was his or if it was Lews Therin's The two were the same. Why can't I do what I must? - p.753
And now we're specifically being told that the thoughts are blending. :)

Why have we come here? Rand thought.

Because, Rand replied. Because we made this. This is where we died. - p.754
Another fascinating bit - Rand answering Rand. Not Rand answering LTT or vice-versa: it's just Rand talking to himself. Personally, I think this is the most explicit piece of evidence in the whole book.

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.

I want to do it right this time. - Rand, p.759
Once again, Rand thinking of LTT's actions/past/memories as his own.

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been. - p.760
Aaaaand scene. This is exactly what we've been arguing all along. I still think the quote two up from here is the most explicit, but this is definitely the runner-up.


So, I would argue that there is a clear progression in this book, from Rand still thinking of LTT as a separate person with separate memories, to not being able to tell the difference between himself and LTT any longer, to finally realizing and accepting that LTT was only a facet of his own mind all along.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:04 AM
So, I would argue that there is a clear progression in this book, from Rand still thinking of LTT as a separate person with separate memories, to not being able to tell the difference between himself and LTT any longer, to finally realizing and accepting that LTT was only a facet of his own mind all along.

I would see that more as two personalities being in one mind and so interacting and merging with each other.
If LTT gets Rand memories and Rand gets LTT memories, than they would resembly each other more closer.

I never believed that LTT would stay completely seperate from Rand.

However, you stil haven't adressed the point of LTT being authentic LTT.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 12:05 AM
However, you stil haven't adressed the point of LTT being authentic LTT.
That's primarily because I no longer have any inkling of what you mean by that.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:12 AM
Belazamon: that's the most obvious thing to me.

It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.

Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?

How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.

If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon. Only how Rand reacted to the memories of LTT. And he still had the memories in TAR.

The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 12:13 AM
I don't get it either. I think she's saying LTT is real, but he also gets Rand's experiences and is changed by them, and Rand also gets Rand's experiences and LTT's and is effected by both of them...

so what exactly is the difference between the two?

They are both personalities composed of Rand's and LTT's memories... I'm so confused here, help me out.

If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality...

I'm sorry, what?

With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.

Yes!

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:21 AM
Look Neilbert: see it like this. Lews Therin had a personality in the age of legends. He died, but got put into Rand's head. Because of the taint. I have a nice quote of Rand that says it is because of the taint ;)

So Lews Therin, like the LTT from the Age of Legends, would react authenticly. He would react how he would have reacted in when he was alive. That is being the real LTT.

Ok, so we have the authentic LTT in Rand's head. However, this is a weird situation. Normally the personality of the last age in reintegrated in the soul. Now it's not the case.
You have Rand and LTT in the same head, having the same experiences, so ofcourse they will be mirroring each other. Ofcourse the pattern is trying for a reintegration. So that was also happening.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:25 AM
You can see right off why Isa might believe that this is proof that Lews Therin is ‘real’. It’s essentially Rand saying what he has believed all along about Lews Therin. What the constructors have been harping on for all these years is that this is only what Rand believes about Lews Therin. It is not the truth. Up until now, it has always been ‘a matter of interpretation’. The constructors interpret a passage one way, and the real’ers interpret it another way.

again: READ THE FACTION:

The faction is called 'LTT is real'. Creed:
We believe that the voice Rand calls LTT is actually the real voice and personality of LTT from LTT's life; Rand didn't create it.

Terez: You have almost said it yourself, but can you admit that you never believed that the voice was an authentic LTT.

That is the main difference, between us.
See factions:

We believe that LTT is a constructed personality in Rand's head. This personality was subconsciously created to keep Rand from "going insane" over the extraneous memories leaking from his soul's former life as LTT.

Now you are saying that the main difference is conscious, being a person. That's not the difference we had.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 12:31 AM
Belazamon: that's the most obvious thing to me.
Unfortunately, that doesn't help me understand it. ;)

It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.
So let me see if I have this. You're saying that LTT's personality in Rand's head is exactly the same as the personality LTT had in his own body, when he was still alive. Correct?

Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?
Very simply. If Rand has all of LTT's memories, and something happens that makes him "forget" or ignore all of his Rand memories, then for all intents and purposes, he would then be LTT.

How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.
Seeing as how it didn't "stick" when he returned to the real world, this analogy is faulty. If going into TAR has "reintegrated him," as you said, why would he suddenly be "unintegrated" as soon as he woke up?

The answer, I would guess, is that Heroes only "reintegrate" upon their death and subsequent arrival in TAR. If popping into the Dream World was all it took to fix the problem, Rand would've been fine in the very first book.

If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon.
If it's in Rand's head, then by definition, it does have something to do with the Soul of the Dragon. That's what Rand is.

The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
That is correct.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 12:37 AM
It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.
Are you seriously not getting this? You don't know that the LTT that was in Rand's mind for the majority of the series is the same LTT as was in the Age of Legends. How could you possibly know that? Where in the text does it objectively, explicitly say Lews Therin is real and behaves exactly like he would have had he been alive and his personality super imposed into Rand's own mind?

Rand has ALL of LTT's memories. The LTT he formulated in his mind could be exactly the same (authentic, as you so incorrectly put it) as the "real" LTT, as you put it, would be. Just saying "he's authentic" means nothing. You are not arguing anything at all, and keep showing a complete lack of understanding of what you are arguing against.

Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?
That's from the perspective of Moiraine in response to the actions of Lanfear. The real quote is "down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover." There are a lot of explanations for this, most of which probably include heavy Compulsion on Lanfear's part. This is in no way, shape or form evidence for LTT being real. Notice she doesn't say "you would be Lews Therin", she says "you [would call] yourself Lews Therin". Huge difference.

How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.
Because he had access to all of his past lives' memories there, not just LTT's. Of course he felt more whole.

If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon. Only how Rand reacted to the memories of LTT. And he still had the memories in TAR.
Of course he still had the memories in T'A'R. What are you asking here? This post makes no sense.

The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
Will you stop using the term "authentic" to justify your points here? Please? You obviously don't know what the word means.

Rand's voice is authentic for both sides. Rand has authentic memories of Lews Therin's life.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:45 AM
Bela: thank you for normally discussing this with me ;)

So let me see if I have this. You're saying that LTT's personality in Rand's head is exactly the same as the personality LTT had in his own body, when he was still alive. Correct?

Yes, it started out as the personality of LTT.

I have to make the addition, that the personality could slowly change, because being in Rands head means that they would get the same experience.

Very simply. If Rand has all of LTT's memories, and something happens that makes him "forget" or ignore all of his Rand memories, then for all intents and purposes, he would then be LTT.

So for you memories are the same as personality. That's something I don't believe. Especially in the wot world with Mat not getting many different personalities.

Seeing as how it didn't "stick" when he returned to the real world, this analogy is faulty. If going into TAR has "reintegrated him," as you said, why would he suddenly be "unintegrated" as soon as he woke up?

Because he entered TAR in the dream. He entered there with his soul or mind or whatever you want to call it.
TAR must have a mechanism to deal with all the heroes of the horn. When they die they come into TAR, but in TAR they suddenly remember all their lives. However, that doesn't cause a conflict.
When Rand woke up, that mechanism didn't affect him anymore. What we saw in TAR is that Rand still had the memories and he felt more stable, but the voice was gone or partly integrated with RAnd.
For me, that means, the voice is part of the personality of LTT.

If it is something that is only created to deal with the memories, why would TAR would have any influence over it? In TAR Rand had still the memories. So he would still have to deal with it.
If it is something artificial, why would it go away? It would have been unique of the heroes.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:50 AM
Also, if LTT was real, he could have been able to take over Rand's body. In fact, there were a lot of theories out there with LTT taking over Rand's body and sealing the bore, or LTT taking over Moridin's body... a whole bunch of crazy theories. LTT could do all of those things if he were a free entity.

Well, we do know that Rand would have been able to take over Rand, if he would have gone with Lanfear.
The thing that I think we were wrong about was the fact that we believed Rand and LTT could coexist without eachother.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:54 AM
There are a few different hallmarks of the Rand/LTT interactions in this book. 1) Rand remembers something, and does not attribute this memory to LTT like he usually does. 2) Rand hears LTT's voice, and realizes/remarks on how it's more and more similar to his own these days. 3) Rand thinks something that is in-character for LTT's thoughts and memories, but the passage is clearly marked as Rand thinking it, not LTT.

Let me answer as follows:

Does Birgitte say that things she has done in the past in another incarnation is not her?
No, she hasn't. That means a fully integrated personality believes that whatever a past personality has done, that it is basicly the new personality that is also part of it. So in a sense they are one.

(Sorry, I have to go to work. Will continue debating with you later) Will probably try to put it all in one post, so it makes sense when it's all together.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 12:55 AM
So for you memories are the same as personality. That's something I don't believe. Especially in the wot world with Mat not getting many different personalities.
Mat's personality did change, quite a bit, after receiving his memories. A lot of his mannerisms were the same, but he went from being a country boy to the foremost general in the world, and possibly the greatest general of all time. Any large event has an impact on one's personality. Just because he didn't develop a separate persona in his head doesn't mean the memories didn't affect him; he just wasn't under as much stress as Rand and didn't develop a disorder.

Because he entered TAR in the dream. He entered there with his soul or mind or whatever you want to call it.
TAR must have a mechanism to deal with all the heroes of the horn. When they die they come into TAR, but in TAR they suddenly remember all their lives. However, that doesn't cause a conflict.
No, it doesn't, because most of the heroes when they enter T'A'R have a strong sense of self, know where the memories are coming from, and have memories from more than one life. When Rand started receiving LTT's memories, he didn't know where they were coming from and was rebelling against the idea of having murdered his family, not being a person born of prophecy, etc. They are completely different cases.

When Rand woke up, that mechanism didn't affect him anymore. What we saw in TAR is that Rand still had the memories and he felt more stable, but the voice was gone or partly integrated with RAnd.
For me, that means, the voice is part of the personality of LTT.
No, it just means that Rand realized that LTT was really a part of himself, created by him. Thus, he still had the memories, but the voice disappeared because he no longer associated it with "LTT".

If it is something artificial, why would it go away? It would have been unique of the heroes.

No, it's unique to Rand.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 01:03 AM
Arguing with a wall is difficult.

I'm out.

(Good luck, Terez and Bela)

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 01:12 AM
Bela: thank you for normally discussing this with me ;)
I'm trying, honest.

I have to make the addition, that the personality could slowly change, because being in Rands head means that they would get the same experience.
You seem to be arguing that LTT's personality popped into Rand's head at some point, fully formed, and may have changed since then. So what do you make of the fact that Rand started getting memories long before LTT's "personality" showed up?

So for you memories are the same as personality. That's something I don't believe. Especially in the wot world with Mat not getting many different personalities.
Well, that's not quite what I believe. Our personalities are shaped by our experiences in life, and in a very real sense, memories are nothing but the records of those experiences. But if two people somehow had absolutely identical memories, would they then have the same personalities...? Maybe, maybe not. And that ambiguity is another reason why I would say that it's possible LTT's "voice" in Rand's head is not exactly the same as LTT's personality when he was alive.

Secondly, I think Abbey has a point above, in that Mat has changed as a result of his memories. There's a couple of big differences, though - he has a whole bunch of small chunks of memory instead of one big life-sized clump, and he knows exactly where they came from already. So there's no need for him to subconsciously compartmentalize them like Rand did.

Because he entered TAR in the dream. He entered there with his soul or mind or whatever you want to call it.Rand's been entering TAR as recently as tFoH. Why would it suddenly be effective now, and not before? He already had memory "leakage" by tFoH, after all.

If it is something that is only created to deal with the memories, why would TAR would have any influence over it? In TAR Rand had still the memories. So he would still have to deal with it.
If it is something artificial, why would it go away?
Possibly it has something to do with only part of Rand being in TAR...? Honestly I'm not sure yet. I'll probably have to reread that whole section a couple times.


Arguing with a wall is difficult.

I'm out.

(Good luck, Terez)
What am I, chopped liver? ;)

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 01:49 AM
Well, we do know that Rand would have been able to take over Rand, if he would have gone with Lanfear.

LTT dumped Lanfear. Him "taking over" would not involve him suddenly being her devoted lover.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 06:38 AM
Rand's been entering TAR as recently as tFoH. Why would it suddenly be effective now, and not before? He already had memory "leakage" by tFoH, after all.

He has not been entering it in the dream. he only entered it in the flesh. That is a difference.
Are you seriously not getting this? You don't know that the LTT that was in Rand's mind for the majority of the series is the same LTT as was in the Age of Legends. How could you possibly know that? Where in the text does it objectively, explicitly say Lews Therin is real and behaves exactly like he would have had he been alive and his personality super imposed into Rand's own mind?

Well, you can compare what we see of LTT in the Age of Legends by the current LTT. You can look at the reactions of Lanfear. that's how you can proof LTT was authentic.
You can also conclude he was authentic, because Rand didn't think while seeing all his past lives 'that voice wasn't the same as LTT'.

Ofcourse this is important. I have found it important, because of love and forgiveness. His last words were something like: light forgive me. And it has. It ended with LTT realizing Ilyena would be reborn again and love again. Isn't that poetic?
I don't understand that you don't see the meaning of that.



Rand has ALL of LTT's memories. The LTT he formulated in his mind could be exactly the same (authentic, as you so incorrectly put it) as the "real" LTT, as you put it, would be. Just saying "he's authentic" means nothing. You are not arguing anything at all, and keep showing a complete lack of understanding of what you are arguing against.

Authentic does mean something. That's the argument. Is it the same personality, or is it just something that only reflects Rand's emotions?
Terez: has said that LTT is a construct and there for not authentic. He would be different than the real LTT. Some other constructors say he is authentic. Well, than i have less to discuss with those.

I find it important as I said above that it is the real LTT. you know the theme of forgiveness.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 07:03 AM
No, Birgitte can tell the difference between what she's done in her current incarnation, and what she did in past incarnations. Her soul did them all, but not her personality.

Also, Birgitte had no need to create a constructed voice in her head... she knew where all of her memories came from, being in T'A'R and all (and being ripped out).

Well, you can compare what we see of LTT in the Age of Legends by the current LTT. You can look at the reactions of Lanfear. that's how you can proof LTT was authentic.
You can also conclude he was authentic, because Rand didn't think while seeing all his past lives 'that voice wasn't the same as LTT'.
Rand has LTT's memories. His construction of LTT could be almost identical to what the real LTT was like. So naturally Lanfear recognized he/it. Rand's construction of LTT based on his memories make him very similar in many ways to the real LTT.

If you can't understand what I've been trying to explain in 50 posts, I guess I'm just barking up the wrong tree.

Look Neilbert: see it like this. Lews Therin had a personality in the age of legends. He died, but got put into Rand's head. Because of the taint. I have a nice quote of Rand that says it is because of the taint
So you're pro barrier degradation theory, eh? Interesting. Me, too.

So you are arguing here that Rand does not have LTT's memories, but actually LTT himself, sentient, exactly as he was in the AoL, in his head? There are a lot of holes in that statement. Namedly, how Rand can spout out things from the Age of Legends, weaves, etc. without Lews Therin's voice telling him.

So Lews Therin, like the LTT from the Age of Legends, would react authenticly. He would react how he would have reacted in when he was alive. That is being the real LTT.
So, here you are implying LTT is sentient. If so, how is it that LTT can read Rand's thoughts, but Rand can't read his?

Ok, so we have the authentic LTT in Rand's head. However, this is a weird situation. Normally the personality of the last age in reintegrated in the soul. Now it's not the case.
You have Rand and LTT in the same head, having the same experiences, so ofcourse they will be mirroring each other. Ofcourse the pattern is trying for a reintegration. So that was also happening.
Except there's one problem with that. Personalities aren't always integrated into the soul's new incarnation, as you presume here. Randland is all about reincarnation. Mat's soul may have lived as a different personality (read: incarnation) before, but that personality isn't integrated. Are you implying that every time a soul is reborn, all of its past lives are integrated into the personality of the new soul, with all the memories of their past lives? Somehow, I don't think so...

Terez
10-28-2009, 07:55 AM
again: READ THE FACTION:

The faction is called 'LTT is real'. Creed:
We believe that the voice Rand calls LTT is actually the real voice and personality of LTT from LTT's life; Rand didn't create it.

Terez: You have almost said it yourself, but can you admit that you never believed that the voice was an authentic LTT. It wasn't. Rand said that it wasn't. See, he said that it was, at first. But what you can't get through your thick skull is that he figured out later that he was wrong - they were not two men, and never had been.

The wording of the faction might get you by if you had used the word 'personality' instead of 'voice', but even then, I've got all these arguments with you where you talk about 'no it's really Lews Therin doing that, he really said that, he really did take over'. NO HE DIDN'T. Rand has figured that out now - you need to figure it out too.

That is the main difference, between us.
See factions: No. You can't determine the main difference between our opinions based on the faction wording - we've hashed all that out in debate. It's quite obvious that you always believed that Lews Therin had a mind and will of his own, separate from Rand's, and that we didn't. We were right, and you were wrong.

Now you are saying that the main difference is conscious, being a person. That's not the difference we had. Yes it is.

Here is an example (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/190513/t/Just-a-brief-question.html#reply-190513) of Isa using the word ‘conscious’:

Basicly for the people who believe in LTT is realy is also the fact that he is a real different personality , with his own thoughts, feelings, habits the most important.

Rand has in his head the personality (that includes LTTs habit) and the memories. Because its a seperate person.



Here you see the example of Lews Therin being consious and looking through Rand. Thats why Rand reacted to LTT. In the FoH Rand didnt have acces to all the memories. So he wouldnt have time to form a construct.
The barrier between him and LTT personality, were being to fade. Thats why Rand or LTT says things. Here, she clearly uses the word ‘conscious’, and also makes it clear that she sees Lews Therin and Rand as two different people. It is clear now that they are ‘not two men, and never have been.’

Here is a quote from a somewhat more eloquent real’er (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/42313/t/Real-vs-Construct-What-s-the-difference-.html#reply-42313) who agrees with me about the main quibble between the constructors and real’ers:

What seems to be the major difference is that according to the realers LTT has awareness, while according to the constructors only Rand has awareness in that head. I have been stressing that difference for some time now, so I’m glad that at least one real’er was sharp enough to pick up on it. It is our only major point of disagreement. But after all these years of arguing with Isa over this exact point, she still claims not to remember that it has always been our main point of disagreement.

At that time, I was still in Isa’s faction, because it was very obvious to me that Lews Therin was ‘real’, and I couldn’t figure out why anyone would claim otherwise. After arguing with Callandor about it a few times, I started to understand where he was coming from. The thread I quoted from already was a thread he started while he was working on the theory, to get one last chance to get all of the real’er arguments together, to try to pin down exactly what they believed since they were not very clear about it.

I posted my qualms with his theory here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/190510/t/Just-a-brief-question.html#reply-190510), more than three years ago, and my ideas about to what extent Lews Therin was ‘real’, and to what extent he was constructed:

That Lews Therin and Rand are two separate aspects of the same soul, and that Rand is the dominant by far, because this is his life, is clear to me. That Lews Therin died with some serious unfinished business is also clear to me. That it is up to Rand to finish that business....clear. That Rand needs whatever aspects of Lews Therin are available to him to finish it properly...clear.

As to where to draw the line between what aspects of Lews Therin are real, and which Rand has created...that's not entirely clear. It still seems to me that the voice that "speaks" to Rand in his head is the most fabricated aspect of Lews Therin, because it is the only aspect of Lews Therin, as we know him, that makes it appear as though there is a different person residing in Rand's head. All else, technically, can be described as "memory," down to the timbre of the voice, and I don't really see any reason to believe that any of it is inaccurate, or in any way not genuine. I have always believed that Lews Therin was ‘real’ in the sense that he has been reborn as Rand (who is real) and the memories that Rand has been getting have been genuine memories of his past life. I never changed my mind on that when I jumped factions. Isa is trying to say that we don’t understand her theory, but we understood it perfectly, and disagreed on one major point. Here, you can see that I had it figured out properly – the only beef I had with Isa’s idea is that she thought that Lews Therin and Rand were different people, and that Lews Therin had a mind of his own, while that was clearly untrue to me.

Most of Isa’s posts are filled with straw man arguments – things that she perceived the construct theory to be because she wasn’t even trying to understand where WE were coming from. Anyone who is familiar with the debates can look at her posts and see that she has no idea where we were coming from, and didn’t even really try to see.

So, the theory was posted, and Callandor did his best to address all of those arguments, including the straw men. But few people actually read it – people just started arguing against it, making points that had already been addressed in the theory. Frenzy mentions consciousness in that thread, incidentally:

I have no clue where the others are coming from with this, but in my interpretation Lews Therin’s consciousness was gradually activated due to the Taint breaking down the barrier between Rands life and his.
Then, some time not long after Callandor’s theory was posted (and many threads later), I started working on my Lews Therin character analysis (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2153), which was an attempt to analyze the Lews Therin situations from the perspective of the construct theory, to show how everything that seemed to point to Lews Therin being ‘real’ was actually explainable under the construct theory. I posted it on the scholar’s board, and Isa was there. Here, you can very clearly see me state the main difference between the construct and real’er ideas, in the opening post:

For those who don't know, there are two primary beliefs about exactly what Lews Therin's presence in Rand's head amounts to: 1) Lews Therin's awareness, separate from Rand's awareness, is inside Rand's head, and converses with him, and that awareness is responsible for the memories that Rand receives from Lews Therin's lifetime, and 2) Rand is Lews Therin reborn, and the memories he receives are his own, though he shouldn't, by the normal rules of nature, have access to them, and Rand's response to the memories that he began to receive (trying to ignore them, and suppression) caused him to create the illusion of a separate awareness in his head, over time, as a way to deny his right to those memories, and therefore his responsibility for them - and also that the "voice" of Lews Therin that speaks to him is most often actually an expression of Rand's own suppressed emotions and thoughts.
And this post (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/40313/t/Lews-Therin-A-Character-Analysis.html#reply-40313) by me also attempts to boil down the disagreement between construct and real again. Later, I define ‘construct’ as ‘the illusion of a separate sentience inside Rand's mind.’ Here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/40282/t/Lews-Therin-A-Character-Analysis.html#reply-40282), I explain specifically to Isa what the difference between our beliefs was. Here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/40294/t/Lews-Therin-A-Character-Analysis.html#reply-40294), I explain it further. Really, anyone who wants to see how I’ve tried to get down to our major disagreement can click any one of those three posts and just keep reading. It’s quite clear that I understood where she was coming from, and simply disagreed with her, while she refused to see where I was even coming from. But here’s a quote that sums it up:

Again - the main reason why I don't agree with you is the issue of sentience, and the "real" part of it is secondary to that, and always has been. Isa never responds to that, but instead says that I should ask RJ about this (I knew he would RAFO such a question, because I knew it was important to the story, but Isa insisted he would answer because it wouldn’t spoil anything – she was wrong about that as well….it was a huge spoiler for this book). So, as you can see quite clearly, we tried to show her many times what, exactly, we disagreed on. But all we got was chanting.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 10:37 AM
It wasn't. Rand said that it wasn't. See, he said that it was, at first. But what you can't get through your thick skull is that he figured out later that he was wrong - they were not two men, and never had been.

Saying they were never two men, doesn't mean the personality wasn't authentic. You can also interpreted it as the real personality of LTT has been reincarnated in Rand, so it is basicly Rand.

No. You can't determine the main difference between our opinions based on the faction wording - we've hashed all that out in debate.[quote]

You can form the main difference from that. It's the summary, the faction creed. All those debates were focused on actions and stuff like that, because you found it important. So that was the main discussion.


[quote]It's quite obvious that you always believed that Lews Therin had a mind and will of his own, separate from Rand's, and that we didn't. We were right, and you were wrong.

We still have to wait and see what Brandon says. As I said above, you can also interpreted it differently.
But as you noticed yourself the LTT is real and the construct theory is 2 based.
1. Is LTT the authentic LTT from the age of legends as said in the creed, or is he not?
2. Could he do his own actions. The realers believed that and the constructs not.

Both points aren't completely clear yet, whatever you think. So we have to wait the explanation of Brandon, Maria, Harriet or Alan to wait and see what the realers were correct in and what the constructers were correct in.

I have been stressing that difference for some time now, so I’m glad that at least one real’er was sharp enough to pick up on it. It is our only major point of disagreement. But after all these years of arguing with Isa over this exact point, she still claims not to remember that it has always been our main point of disagreement.


I kindof think you haven't noticed that I haven't been following the debate, because I was sick and tired about how you discussed things.
So the difference is now based on how you interpreted it... And that is not correct. If you look at the faction creeds than you can see what the main difference was. 'LTT is Real' the name says it all.

I have always believed that Lews Therin was ‘real’ in the sense that he has been reborn as Rand (who is real) and the memories that Rand has been getting have been genuine memories of his past life. I never changed my mind on that when I jumped factions.


And that's were we have our difference. You don't believe voice means personality. And that is why our discussions have always turned out wrong. You have a totally different point of view than me.

The same counts for the following quote:
Isa never responds to that, but instead says that I should ask RJ about this (I knew he would RAFO such a question, because I knew it was important to the story, but Isa insisted he would answer because it wouldn’t spoil anything – she was wrong about that as well….it was a huge spoiler for this book). So, as you can see quite clearly, we tried to show her many times what, exactly, we disagreed on. But all we got was chanting.

I never responded to that because i was sick and tired of the discussion.
If you don't agree on the definition of things than you cannot discuss it. We both have a different reference cadre or point of view , or however it's called, so it felt no use discussing things.

Can't you understand that it's really frustrating if i see LTT voice as authentic as important and after that the own free will and choice etc?Than I talk to you and than you say: conscious is the only difference. While the most important thing for me if the voice is real.

In the original post of Callandor: i have said what I thought of it.
http://theoryland.yuku.com/sreply/45466
For me it's clear that it's the same personality as LTT in the age of legends

Rand has LTT's memories. His construction of LTT could be almost identical to what the real LTT was like. So naturally Lanfear recognized he/it. Rand's construction of LTT based on his memories make him very similar in many ways to the real LTT.

If you can't understand what I've been trying to explain in 50 posts, I guess I'm just barking up the wrong tree.

Abbey: Very similar is not the same as authentic. If you say that LTT is voicing Rand's fears, than it's not authentic.
If it's not authentic, than Lanfear would have recognized that. She known LTT for a long long time. So in that case it wouldn't have been LTT.

No, Birgitte can tell the difference between what she's done in her current incarnation, and what she did in past incarnations. Her soul did them all, but not her personality.

Her soul did them all, but she had different personalities at that time. She doesn't experience that anymore, because it has been integrated.
So you can also say: they were never two women.

So, here you are implying LTT is sentient. If so, how is it that LTT can read Rand's thoughts, but Rand can't read his?

The Barrier Degeneration theory. Rand didn't got all of LTT 's memories, there still was a barrier. He describes it as memories and thoughts drifting over.

Except there's one problem with that. Personalities aren't always integrated into the soul's new incarnation, as you presume here. Randland is all about reincarnation. Mat's soul may have lived as a different personality (read: incarnation) before, but that personality isn't integrated. Are you implying that every time a soul is reborn, all of its past lives are integrated into the personality of the new soul, with all the memories of their past lives?

Yes, at least for the heroes. While they await into TAR, everything is integrated.
The normal people also have a waiting place, but we don't know much about it.

LTT dumped Lanfear. Him "taking over" would not involve him suddenly being her devoted lover.
Compulsion?

You seem to be arguing that LTT's personality popped into Rand's head at some point, fully formed, and may have changed since then. So what do you make of the fact that Rand started getting memories long before LTT's "personality" showed up?

I believe in some sort of Barrier degeneration theory and the influence of the taint. So the personality (voice) and memories were behiind the barrier.
It slowly degraded and we see stuff leaking.
RAnd starts saying stuff like 'and you loved power'. He didn't know where it came from. So it could have been a thought popped up from the LTT site.

Mat's personality did change, quite a bit, after receiving his memories. A lot of his mannerisms were the same, but he went from being a country boy to the foremost general in the world, and possibly the greatest general of all time.

That's skill change, not personality change. You say it yourself : the mannerism was the same, but the skills about being a general got higher.

Have I gotten all the points now? I hope I tried to make clear that I think a part of the problem is a different interpretation of things like soul, personality, voice.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 10:45 AM
The Barrier Degeneration theory. Rand didn't got all of LTT 's memories, there still was a barrier. He describes it as memories and thoughts drifting over.

Which gained alot of traction in this book. There was that great nugget in the final couple chapters during Rand's POVs:

"He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope." -Ch. 50, pg 759


That along with Rand's earlier thoughts on the Taint and the Barrier between lives tend to scream Barrier Degradation.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 10:58 AM
Another thing: Some people are saying that I am crazy for defending it. But I am not the only one:

See the quote from Leigh on tor.com
And speaking of headspace: HAHAHAHAHA Lews Therin is gone. And in a way that STILL doesn’t definitively settle the “real or not real” question!!

Terez
10-28-2009, 11:40 AM
The question IS definitively settled - people just refuse to admit it (or perhaps Leigh simply hasn't realized it because she didn't look at the evidence like I did). The OP here lays out how it is settled.

And no Isa, the faction creed is not a good thing to go by (though the faction creed is debunked as well, as per the proof in the OP). That is the only reason why we had these discussions - because your creed didn't really mean anything. We had to debate it to understand what our actual disagreements were. And it is clear that we were right, and you were wrong.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 11:54 AM
And no Isa, the faction creed is not a good thing to go by (though the faction creed is debunked as well, as per the proof in the OP). That is the only reason why we had these discussions - because your creed didn't really mean anything.

Excuse me : the creed did mean anything. That you don't understand it isn't my problem. You do that every time, you say it doesn't mean anything for you and than try to discuss something else completely.

Terez
10-28-2009, 12:00 PM
Excuse me : the creed did mean anything. That you don't understand it isn't my problem. You do that every time, you say it doesn't mean anything for you and than try to discuss something else completely.
Nah, we were never discussing something else completely. We were finding out exactly what you meant by 'real'. And we did find that out. I didn't understand it when I joined your faction, but after I figured out what you really meant, I quit the faction. All these quotes to prove that you believed Rand and Lews Therin were separate, and you're still trying to deny it? Because I find it hard to believe that you would have been arguing passionately about something all these years that no one actually disagreed with you about, lol.

However, your faction mentions the 'voice' being 'the real Lews Therin'. That's proven wrong.

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 12:19 PM
Compulsion?

I'm not sure why anyone bothers with you. You're as bad as Weird Harold. Compulsion is what everyone else has been saying since the beginning of the thread when you said Moiraine's quote about Rand calling himself LTT meant LTT had taken over.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:23 PM
I take it as a compliment that I am as bad as Weird Harold ;))))

Compulsion : in meaning being a devoted lover.

Isabel
10-28-2009, 12:26 PM
Nah, we were never discussing something else completely. We were finding out exactly what you meant by 'real'. And we did find that out. I didn't understand it when I joined your faction, but after I figured out what you really meant, I quit the faction. All these quotes to prove that you believed Rand and Lews Therin were separate, and you're still trying to deny it? Because I find it hard to believe that you would have been arguing passionately about something all these years that no one actually disagreed with you about, lol.

However, your faction mentions the 'voice' being 'the real Lews Therin'. That's proven wrong.

No, you were not finding out what I mean with real. It's obvious what I mean with real, read the dictionary. What's so hard as to understand LTT's voice being authentic??????????????? It hasn't been disproven that the voice reacted like LTT would have reacted.

I believed LTT was real and that he could do things seperate of Rand. These were two things that are part of my theory. The real thing being the most important.

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 12:36 PM
I take it as a compliment that I am as bad as Weird Harold ;))))

Compulsion : in meaning being a devoted lover.

Then it's not evidence of LTT being, as you put it, "authentic".

Isabel
10-28-2009, 01:29 PM
Neilbert: lets see the quote:
Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and you were here devoted lover.
Moiraine seperated two things; calling lews therin telamon and being Lanfears devoted lover. I interpreted as two different causes. One is the personality of LTT taking over. The second is Compulsion, manipulation by Lanfear, to make LTT her devoted lover;)
However, I admit this quote is still debateble.The same as all other quotes.

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 01:35 PM
:rolleyes:

Your theory relies on you interpreting events in an unnecessarily convoluted way.

Terez
10-28-2009, 01:38 PM
No, you were not finding out what I mean with real. It's obvious what I mean with real, read the dictionary. What's so hard as to understand LTT's voice being authentic???????????????
Yeah, I did find out what you meant with 'real'. Cause like I said, no one ever disagreed that the memories were real. No one ever even disagreed that the 'reactions' of Lews Therin wouldn't be the same reactions as the real Lews Therin might have had, because, after all, Rand is Lews Therin. That was the point of the debates - to find out what you meant by 'real' because it obviously didn't have to do with the memories being genuine. Only an idiot would say otherwise.

So, we determined that you believed that Lews Therin had a mind of his own. You were wrong about that.

FINAL PROOF OF ISA'S DEFINITION OF 'REAL': (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2203)

I have seen two definitions for "Real".

1) Real means the LTT personality is transfered whole from the previous incarnation with nothing of the Rand personality in it, and

2) Real means the LTT personality is capable of independent thought.

I think both, and 2 would be a logical consequense of 1.

No it's both. It's the complete personality from LTT.
Admit you were wrong, and let's move on.

AbbeyRoad
10-28-2009, 03:02 PM
I interpreted as two different causes. One is the personality of LTT taking over. The second is Compulsion, manipulation by Lanfear, to make LTT her devoted lover
You interpreted it as two causes? Wait, like... the whole of the original quote?

Down one, she killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and you were here devoted lover.
Now why would Moiraine use terms like "one" and "the other" explicitly, if she really meant three things, like you said? Why would she not say "down one, she killed you. Down another, she carried you away and you were her devoted lover. Down another, you called yourself LTT"?

Your whole point of using this quote was to prove that it is explicitly listed in the text that it is possible for LTT to take over Rand. But not only do the semantics show that you are wrong, but it never even says LTT 'took over' like you claim. It says "you called yourself LTT", which is listed in the sentence in direct causation from "down another, she carried you away and you were her devoted lover". The sentence doesn't make sense the way you are interpreting it.

I am aware that English might not be your primary language, and so you might have missed this. But when you look at the passage, it just can't be interpreted like you say.

Yes, at least for the heroes. While they await into TAR, everything is integrated.
The normal people also have a waiting place, but we don't know much about it.
Rand says he "remembers" all of his past lives, not that all of his personalities fuse together. He is still Rand; he still looks like Rand, has Rand's body, Rand's personality. He merely has all of the "memories" of his past lives as a whole. Not multiple sentient personalities fused into one with Rand as the dominant one. Memories.


RAnd starts saying stuff like 'and you loved power'. He didn't know where it came from. So it could have been a thought popped up from the LTT site.
Technically. It is also more likely that it is the MEMORY of Mierin always loving power, especially given the context that a little italicized sentence didn't pop into Rand's head, meaning that LTT spoke to him. Rand can't read LTT's mind (another problem I've always had with the Real'er theory), and so would have no way of making that comment without LTT actually telling him, given that LTT is sentient (which you argue), which he never does.

That's skill change, not personality change. You say it yourself : the mannerism was the same, but the skills about being a general got higher.

Have I gotten all the points now? I hope I tried to make clear that I think a part of the problem is a different interpretation of things like soul, personality, voice.
Nope, it's personality change. For instance, you'll notice when Mat the dagger, he was very paranoid, skeptical, angry, etc. That seems like quite a personality change; acting in a different way, developing new traits. When he received his new memories, he developed new characteristics, new personality traits, not just skills. The entire way he views the world is completely different. Of course his personality has undergone a change. Additionally, I said his personality was similar, I never said it was the same. Mat still thinks of himself as "Mat"; he just realizes that in that context Mat is a slightly different Mat than before.

A direct example: because he received the memories, he remembers Hawkwing's face. Because he remembers Hawkwing's face, Tuon wants to marry him. Mat used to despise positions of authority and power, and now controls a large army, is a Seanchan lord, and is developing a huge love for a woman whom he previously would never have been attracted to. Call it Pattern influence or not, it's still a personality change directly resulting from memories.

Her soul did them all, but she had different personalities at that time. She doesn't experience that anymore, because it has been integrated.
So you can also say: they were never two women.
So what are you arguing, and why do you use the term "two women"? She never had a voice in her head, she just had memories of past lives. And a whole bunch of past lives, not just one. Her case is nothing at all similar to Rand's.

If it's not authentic, than Lanfear would have recognized that. She known LTT for a long long time. So in that case it wouldn't have been LTT.
How would she know? All she saw was a brief image of what LTT looked like and exchanged a few words. Rand knew what LTT would have said ("and you loved power") and what he looked like from the memories. It's not like they had weeks to talk about old times. If you saw what looked and sounded like your old lover, your first instinct wouldn't be "Ha! You said potAto instead of potAHto! You must be a fraud!" You see what you expect to see, unless something weird gives it away.

Also, Lanfear is a crazy b*tch. She thought Rand was LTT (and called him LTT) when he looked like Rand and before he even had a voice in his head. She is a Forsaken, bound to the Shadow, and tries to help Rand learn to combat the Shadow because she used to be his old reincarnation's sex toy. She's got issues, and I would certainly take anything she said with a grain of salt, or a whole shaker full.

Finally, I think Terez did a good job of presenting all of the evidence for both sides in a logical, concise way. I think it's pretty hard to argue your position on this issue any more.

Terez
10-28-2009, 03:10 PM
Thanks Abbey. I think what Isa meant when she said 'two causes' was that there would be two causes of Rand calling himself Lews Therin and being Lanfear's devoted lover. I agree with her essentially, other than the implication that Lews Therin was a conscious entity that could have taken over Rand. Lanfear would have had to Compel him for that scenario to have happened, and once that happened, using Lews Therin's name and personality to please her would likely have come naturally.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 03:26 PM
Another thing: Some people are saying that I am crazy for defending it. But I am not the only one:
The question IS definitively settled - people just refuse to admit it (or perhaps Leigh simply hasn't realized it because she didn't look at the evidence like I did). The OP here lays out how it is settled.
I'm sorry, Terez, but I disagree that "the question is definitively settled." I don't foresee us ever getting convincing evidence that LTT's personality in the AoL was different than the personality of the LTT voice in Ran'ds head. That would require an LTT-in-the-AoL point-of-view scene; probably several, honestly, to give enough definitive evidence.

As supporters of Construct Theory, we have a very solid explanation of how and why LTT's voice could have been created. But, frankly, it's a bloody fantasy series. THEIR INTERPRETATION IS POSSIBLE TOO.

Hell, at this point I'm more than half-tempted to start playing devil's advocate on my own theory... ;)

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 04:10 PM
I don't foresee us ever getting convincing evidence that LTT's personality in the AoL was different than the personality of the LTT voice in Ran'ds head.

I don't see why this matters at all, considering that both personalities are created from the shared experiences of Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin. Even Isa acknowledges that bit.

Terez
10-28-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm sorry, Terez, but I disagree that "the question is definitively settled." I don't foresee us ever getting convincing evidence that LTT's personality in the AoL was different than the personality of the LTT voice in Ran'ds head.
What Neil said.

Hell, at this point I'm more than half-tempted to start playing devil's advocate on my own theory... ;)
I'm only surprised you haven't been doing it already.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 04:55 PM
I don't see why this matters at all, considering that both personalities are created from the shared experiences of Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin. Even Isa acknowledges that bit.
If she does, then her whole "LTT is authentic!" argument is nullified. So, I guess I'm confused again.

Terez
10-28-2009, 05:07 PM
That's typical in debates with Isa.

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 05:58 PM
If she does, then her whole "LTT is authentic!" argument is nullified. So, I guess I'm confused again.

Yeah, me too. I just stopped trying to make sense of it.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:02 AM
I have seen two definitions for "Real".

1) Real means the LTT personality is transfered whole from the previous incarnation with nothing of the Rand personality in it, and

2) Real means the LTT personality is capable of independent thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok
I think both, and 2 would be a logical consequense of 1..

No it's both. It's the complete personality from LTT.


I said it was BOTH. So what was I lying about? I always thought that the first one was the most important, but as Sare said, it follows logical from one.

This hasn't been disproven yet.

Terez
10-29-2009, 12:13 AM
The first one was the part no one disagreed about, really, except maybe the 'complete' part. The memories were definitely fragmentary, and that's the memories that Rand got directly. The 'voice' was nowhere near as cohesive as the memories.

I have a way of writing the theory that I think will convince most people - Tam wants a good theory for his home page, so I'm going to write up a new version that's simpler, more convincing (thanks to new evidence - most of which we haven't even touched on in this thread), and written in a way that I hope people will not find boring to read.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:24 AM
If she does, then her whole "LTT is authentic!" argument is nullified. So, I guess I'm confused again.

Huh, let me explane the difference.

People who believed in the theory "LTT is real' believe mostly the following parts. The most important thing being the voice is authentic, as said in the faction creed.
However as there were a lot of questions and asking to clear it up, a whole different ideas were after it.

1.The most used theory is that the barrier degeneration theory caused the memories and the voice.
2. The voice is the authentic voice of LTT. (essential)
3. He could do things without Rands consent.
4. He and Rand are in the same head so influencing each other.
5. They are starting to merge. ( i guess 4.5 is what you mean with 'shared experiences of Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin.

And from what I understand from construct theory.
1. It can also be the barrier degeneration that causes Rand to get the memories.
2. To deal with the memories he creates LTT.
3. LTT is also used as outlet for feelings and emotions Rand doesn't have anymore, which makes the voice not authentic.
4. Rand has control over the voice.

I think those things have to be asked to Maria, Alan, Brandon and Harriet.


===

Abbey: as you know, everyone interpreted quotes that is best for that person. you do it, I do it.

Now why would Moiraine use terms like "one" and "the other" explicitly, if she really meant three things, like you said? Why would she not say "down one, she killed you. Down another, she carried you away and you were her devoted lover. Down another, you called yourself LTT"?

Your whole point of using this quote was to prove that it is explicitly listed in the text that it is possible for LTT to take over Rand. But not only do the semantics show that you are wrong, but it never even says LTT 'took over' like you claim. It says "you called yourself LTT", which is listed in the sentence in direct causation from "down another, she carried you away and you were her devoted lover". The sentence doesn't make sense the way you are interpreting it.

I meant that it wasn't described as : You were her devoted lover as LTT. It was described as: you called yourself LTT and you were her devoted lover.
That way, it doesn't follow automatically that calling yourself LTT caused being a devoted lover.

Rand says he "remembers" all of his past lives, not that all of his personalities fuse together. He is still Rand; he still looks like Rand, has Rand's body, Rand's personality. He merely has all of the "memories" of his past lives as a whole. Not multiple sentient personalities fused into one with Rand as the dominant one. Memories.


Exactly: that is normal. That is also the case with heroes in tar. They remember all their past lives, but don't see them as distinct. They are part of them.

A direct example: because he received the memories, he remembers Hawkwing's face. Because he remembers Hawkwing's face, Tuon wants to marry him. Mat used to despise positions of authority and power, and now controls a large army, is a Seanchan lord, and is developing a huge love for a woman whom he previously would never have been attracted to. Call it Pattern influence or not, it's still a personality change directly resulting from memories.

I don't see it as a personality change. I really see it as a skill change. He still doesn't want to be a lord, but circumstances force him to use it.
I don't see him suddenly loving power or something like that.

Birgitte has all the memories in her head about how she was in the past. She doesn't think, that some of those actions weren't her. She accepts them as her own.
She doesn't have multiple personalities, because it all has been integrated. The old personalities are gone or taken in the overal personality of the hero Birgitte.
So, if you would ask Birgitte about past reincarnations, she would also say it was her, not the last reincarnation.

How would she know? All she saw was a brief image of what LTT looked like and exchanged a few words. Rand knew what LTT would have said ("and you loved power") and what he looked like from the memories. It's not like they had weeks to talk about old times. If you saw what looked and sounded like your old lover, your first instinct wouldn't be "Ha! You said potAto instead of potAHto! You must be a fraud!" You see what you expect to see, unless something weird gives it away.

Also, Lanfear is a crazy b*tch. She thought Rand was LTT (and called him LTT) when he looked like Rand and before he even had a voice in his head. She is a Forsaken, bound to the Shadow, and tries to help Rand learn to combat the Shadow because she used to be his old reincarnation's sex toy. She's got issues, and I would certainly take anything she said with a grain of salt, or a whole shaker full.

I meant when she carried Rand away. She knew LTT for hundreds of years and if he wasn't genuine, he wouldn't be LTT. However, indeed the LTT part was from Moiraine's pov, so we can't say anything definite.

Finally, I think Terez did a good job of presenting all of the evidence for both sides in a logical, concise way. I think it's pretty hard to argue your position on this issue any more.

I haven't seen her summarise it as above ;) She isn't willing to acknowledge that LTT is authentic is the essential part of LTT is real.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:25 AM
The first one was the part no one disagreed about, really, except maybe the 'complete' part. The memories were definitely fragmentary, and that's the memories that Rand got directly. The 'voice' was nowhere near as cohesive as the memories.


You did: You said that the voice wasn't the authentic LTT.... I can find that quote.
Personality included the voice in Rand's head.

Terez
10-29-2009, 12:29 AM
I still am not sure what you mean by 'authentic'. Because I have always believed that the memories were authentic, and I've never said that anything 'Lews Therin' did was something that Lews Therin would not do, because Rand IS Lews Therin.

So, what exactly do we disagree on?

Also, Rand's control of the voice was not conscious - or not always, anyway. He could consciously suppress it, unless his suppressed thoughts were particularly nagging, in which case they would come through despite his efforts. But the voice talking was a subconscious manifestation of the things that he was suppressing (to include Lews Therin, and the knowledge that he WAS Lews Therin), not a conscious effort (obviously - just figured I'd pick that nit).

Terez
10-29-2009, 12:32 AM
You did: You said that the voice wasn't the authentic LTT.... I can find that quote. Find it, and we'll talk. Because I know what I said above is true, about what I've believed. Problem is, you always added those extra details to the bits that I told you I've always agreed with, and I didn't agree with those details. So, I disagreed with it being 'the real personality' by your definition (and also the definition of most real'ers), specifically. Like I said, I didn't change my mind about anything when I quit your faction, except realizing that Callandor wasn't really saying (like you seemed to believe) that the memories weren't real, or that anything Lews Therin did wasn't something Lews Therin wouldn't have done. Nobody ever argued that.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy
The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT.
This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1505&highlight=Lews+Therin

No time for more.

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy
The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT.
This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1505&highlight=Lews+Therin

No time for more.
I don't see anything in that quote that denies that the memories are genuine, or says that the 'voice' was out of character (though it's hard to determine what's 'out of character' for Lews Therin, really - I think that the 'voice' most often reflected Rand's impression of the Kinslayer, a madman). He is like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself, but he believes that the person that he was in his past life is the person he's talking to, as if they were different people (they weren't).

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 02:00 AM
If she does, then her whole "LTT is authentic!" argument is nullified. So, I guess I'm confused again.

Here ya go Bela, have fun being ever more confused.

You have Rand and LTT in the same head, having the same experiences, so ofcourse they will be mirroring each other.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 11:43 AM
Neilbert: I don't understand why that is confusing?
LTT and Rand are both in the same head. LTT sees things that are happening, knows how Rand feels, so it's not impossible for them to mirror each other.

Isabel
10-29-2009, 12:14 PM
I don't see anything in that quote that denies that the memories are genuine, or says that the 'voice' was out of character (though it's hard to determine what's 'out of character' for Lews Therin, really - I think that the 'voice' most often reflected Rand's impression of the Kinslayer, a madman). He is like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself, but he believes that the person that he was in his past life is the person he's talking to, as if they were different people (they weren't).


Terez: what you are saying is that the voice most often reflected Rands impression of LTT.
Can you understand that I don't consider that authentic?

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 12:15 PM
Because if LTT is changed by Rand's experiences, then it becomes impossible to say whether LTT was "genuine" or not, as LTT changed by Rand's experiences, and LTT made up from Rand's experiences and Rand's memories of being LTT would functionally be the exact same thing.

Terez
10-29-2009, 12:45 PM
Terez: what you are saying is that the voice most often reflected Rands impression of LTT.
Can you understand that I don't consider that authentic? Dunno, depends. Do you still believe that Lews Therin was capable of independent thought? If you do still believe that, then 'authenticity' isn't our main disagreement.

If not, then you have to realize that Rand's impressions of Lews Therin are going to be instrumental in shaping his portrayal of the man. It doesn't make the memories any less authentic - in fact, Rand grew up believing that Lews Therin was 'the most hated, the most feared man in the history of the world', and he didn't find anything in Lews Therin's memories that made him change his opinion. Quite the opposite.

So, no, I don't understand exactly why you don't consider that 'authentic'. Perhaps you can explain?

Isabel
10-29-2009, 01:50 PM
Dunno, depends. Do you still believe that Lews Therin was capable of independent thought? If you do still believe that, then 'authenticity' isn't our main disagreement.

If not, then you have to realize that Rand's impressions of Lews Therin are going to be instrumental in shaping his portrayal of the man. It doesn't make the memories any less authentic - in fact, Rand grew up believing that Lews Therin was 'the most hated, the most feared man in the history of the world', and he didn't find anything in Lews Therin's memories that made him change his opinion. Quite the opposite.

So, no, I don't understand exactly why you don't consider that 'authentic'. Perhaps you can explain?


And again: If you don't understand real or authentic, than it's no use discussing. I have discribed it the way I could. You have seen the dictonary. The voice means personality for me. It means the same personality as LTT in the age of legends. While according to you it's not. If Rand created the voice, than it's not exactly the same.

Additional to real, i do believe he is capable to independant thought, but that's not my main point.

Because if LTT is changed by Rand's experiences, then it becomes impossible to say whether LTT was "genuine" or not, as LTT changed by Rand's experiences, and LTT made up from Rand's experiences and Rand's memories of being LTT would functionally be the exact same thing.

That's not true. LTT is at that time still authentic. But he reacts to Rand and the situations happening.
It's a matter of interpretation.

Brandon has said that RJ left that question open in the notes. That means probably that RJ wrote it, that both options are possible, depending how you interpreted it.
So I hate to admit it, but probably we are both right.

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 02:05 PM
Additional to real, i do believe he is capable to independant thought, but that's not my main point.

I'm not sure how you can continue to believe that given the the events atop Dragonmount, but if that doesn't convince you nothing will so w/e.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:42 PM
And again: If you don't understand real or authentic, than it's no use discussing.
I don't understand what you are trying to get at with it. I'm well aware of what the word means - just not how you're applying it. If you think that Rand's impressions of Lews Therin didn't shape his portrayal of Lews Therin, then we definitely disagree, but I don't see how that makes Lews Therin (who was a part of Rand all along) any less authentic. Rand created the voice, and yeah, his authentic memories of Lews Therin were a huge part of what he made it with (subconsciously of course), but Lews Therin was never a separate person. That was just an illusion.

Brandon has said that RJ left that question open in the notes. That means probably that RJ wrote it, that both options are possible, depending how you interpreted it.
So I hate to admit it, but probably we are both right.
Perhaps. I don't think the question was left very open at all (despite RJ not saying anything explicit about it), but I'm going to have to try to explain why better in my theory that I'm writing for the home page. I think BS agrees, but since he doesn't have anything explicit to go off of, he's not going to say what his opinion is, because he knows that a lot of people are emotionally attached to both theories. That's the impression I get anyway.

And yeah, we are both right at least in a sense - we've already established that we agree on a good number of things.

Bryan Blaire
10-29-2009, 05:26 PM
I think the argument has been settled, and I haven't even read the book yet. I'm a tad disappointed, but I'm big enough to admit I was wrong about LTT's voice being real.

I will fall back somewhat on the fact that my original "Two-and-a-Half Souls" theory, much derided, scoffed and laughed at, incorporated the idea that Rand was making an LTT up (even though I defined it as a soul, instead of a personality). :D However, I never really believed it enough myself to try and support it.

Good show, Callandor, good show.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 06:04 PM
I'm still not getting how it "wasn't real" when there is no way that Rand made up all of LTT's memories. And the fact that they fought to seize saidin.... Those two (and the thousands of others) were one in the same, but still two (or hundreds) of people. Maybe I'm inbetween on the construct and the real theory and always have been. To me, if people who knew him as LTT, talked to him as LTT and he answered, he was just being himself from an earlier age, which again would be "real".

It was the memories that crossed over like a reverse of Birgitte's issue. Due to the taint? Maybe, maybe that's why the wheel needed the taint this time around, so the memories would bleed over, so LTT could "help" Rand. I don't believe Rand "created " anything at all, you don't create something that's already there.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 06:45 PM
Maybe I'm inbetween on the construct and the real theory and always have been. To me, if people who knew him as LTT, talked to him as LTT and he answered, he was just being himself from an earlier age, which again would be "real".
I think the only issue is that Isabel would not agree with that definition of "real." I have to admit, though, I'm completely lost as to why. ;)

Anyway, functionally, I think you're dead-on. Which is why this debate can't really be "resolved" in any real sense. There's just two different interpretations.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:17 PM
Anyway, functionally, I think you're dead-on. Which is why this debate can't really be "resolved" in any real sense. There's just two different interpretations.

Wow...amazing LOL

I totally agree its all based upon your definition of real being real :p

Bryan Blaire
10-29-2009, 07:21 PM
Lews Therin Telamon has, is and always will be real. He is Rand, Rand is LTT. That's the point of the Wheel of Time.

The debate between the "Realers" and "Constructicons" has always been about the nature of the voice itself, from my understanding. I always held that the voice was the actual original LTT voice that had been pieced back together from his own memories and was reacting as a separate entity to Rand's sensory inputs. That does not appear to have been the case. I would argue that we still don't seem to have a good definition of what actually makes up a personality in Randland, but I'm willing to overlook that.

I think we have a good answer that the voice, whether constructed or re-constructed, was not the original, full voice of LTT.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:29 PM
I'm just a firm believer that nothing was "constructed" or "reconstructed" for that matter LOL I mean geez.... I didn't construct the voices in MY head either

Davian93
10-29-2009, 07:31 PM
After much thought and debate (and a moment of doubt) I am firmly on the side of "Construct".

Terez
10-29-2009, 07:39 PM
I'm just a firm believer that nothing was "constructed" or "reconstructed" for that matter LOL I mean geez.... I didn't construct the voices in MY head either
Well. I'm writing a theory up for the home page. Please give it a chance before you make up your mind on that - I think it's very clear that the 'voice' was subconsciously constructed, rather than a conscious entity, and I think I can show why.

And Bryan is right, that it still isn't clear what RJ meant by 'personality' when he said 'one soul, two personalities'. Even from my solid constructor point of view, I think he could have either meant that Rand had memories of his past life, and therefore Lews Therin's personality was a part of him, or he could have been referring to the constructed personality.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:55 PM
I'll read it when its up, it's just hard to argue this point, or sway people because our two points are so close to one another.

Terez
10-29-2009, 08:13 PM
I know it's hard to argue, obviously. :D I have been doing it for years, after all....but I think I keep getting better at it, so maybe I can convince some more people.

Weird Harold
10-29-2009, 08:40 PM
I'll read it when its up, it's just hard to argue this point, or sway people because our two points are so close to one another.
That's why I don't bother. I can't see any way to distingish between "authentic" and "an authentic reproduction."

Isabel
10-29-2009, 11:24 PM
That does not appear to have been the case. I would argue that we still don't seem to have a good definition of what actually makes up a personality in Randland, but I'm willing to overlook that.


Bryan: It has not been disproven. Brandon says that Jordan didn't decide wether the voice was real or not. It's not in his notes. So it's both still possible.

uestion: How extensive were RJ’s notes about Lews Therin?

Answer: His notes about Lews Therin, I would say are about middle extensive, comparatively of different things that he has notes on. Les than some, more than others. They were extensive enough that I know enough things you don’t know to make me excited, but not so extensive that you know, you are ever going to see a book about Lews Therin or anything like that.

Question: As a followup question, are the notes about Lews Therin the same notes about the voice of Lews Therin’s?

Answer: You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 11:36 PM
Question: As a followup question, are the notes about Lews Therin the same notes about the voice of Lews Therin’s?

Answer: You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book.
You'd be right in saying that RJ never explicitly answered that question in his books; and possibly, depending on how you interpret BS's statement above, he may have never answered it explicitly in his notes either. But based on the book, I think Brandon Sanderson is obviously a Constructionist. :D

Isabel
10-29-2009, 11:43 PM
You'd be right in saying that RJ never explicitly answered that question in his books; and possibly, depending on how you interpret BS's statement above, he may have never answered it explicitly in his notes either. But based on the book, I think Brandon Sanderson is obviously a Constructionist. :D

I wouldn't agree with you :P But lets not start a discussion about that.

I am actually beginning to think that this might be something RJ never intended to answer ;) He would write something that was possible to interpreted on two different ways.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 11:58 PM
I am actually beginning to think that this might be something RJ never intended to answer ;) He would write something that was possible to interpreted on two different ways.
That, I can agree with. I think it's something that we were far more interested in than he was.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 01:17 AM
I don't. I see it as cut and dry.

Honestly.

Terez
10-30-2009, 01:22 AM
haha, I have been saying that RJ would probably leave it open for a long time, and Isa insisted the opposite. In the end, he went a lot further with confirming construct theory than I ever really expected him to.

Bryan Blaire
10-30-2009, 06:37 AM
Hmmmm... maybe this is time for a new Two-and-a-Half Personalities theory. :p

Brita
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
I didn't read all of the lengthy posts- too involved for me. The one thing that I was really taken with was that LTT (who is Rand) was still freshly grieving. It wasn't a madman's voice, but a grief process that had been on hold for 3000 years, and then suppressed for another few years. It was satisfying to see healing come to both, both being the memory of Illyena, and Rand's current struggles. Both aspects of Rand found a measure of peace. Nicely done.

Isabel
10-30-2009, 03:46 PM
haha, I have been saying that RJ would probably leave it open for a long time, and Isa insisted the opposite. In the end, he went a lot further with confirming construct theory than I ever really expected him to.

Terez: if RJ didn't put it in the notes what the voice was, than that means he would leave it over. That means we won't ever know what RJ meant.

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Some of us will. ;) Most of us, really...

And yay for Brita being converted!

Isabel
10-30-2009, 03:51 PM
And yay for Brita being converted!

Why do you think she is a constructivist? She is saying:
The one thing that I was really taken with was that LTT (who is Rand) was still freshly grieving. It wasn't a madman's voice, but a grief process that had been on hold for 3000 years, and then suppressed for another few years. It was satisfying to see healing come to both, both being the memory of Illyena, and Rand's current struggles. Both aspects of Rand found a measure of peace. Nicely done.

This really suggest being a realist ;)

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:54 PM
Why do you think she is a constructivist?
Because she voted. :rolleyes:

Isabel
10-31-2009, 12:46 AM
Than my question could be: how could a contstruct be grieving and going through a 3000 year grieving proces:p

Terez
10-31-2009, 01:14 AM
What she's saying is that Rand is really the one grieving, because Rand is Lews Therin. He had tried to separate himself from Lews Therin, but Tam showed him in the end that he hadn't been all that successful, and that was the catalyst for Rand finally facing the memory of what he did that day, 3000+ years ago, and for finally accepting that he and Lews Therin were not two men, and never had been. ;)

Isabel
10-31-2009, 01:19 AM
Not going to respond, because i have some arguments against that. I will simply wait and see what Brandon says.

Terez
10-31-2009, 01:50 AM
lol...that wasn't even about what the 'truth' is, but about what Brita said.

Brita
10-31-2009, 11:06 AM
What she's saying is that Rand is really the one grieving, because Rand is Lews Therin. He had tried to separate himself from Lews Therin, but Tam showed him in the end that he hadn't been all that successful, and that was the catalyst for Rand finally facing the memory of what he did that day, 3000+ years ago, and for finally accepting that he and Lews Therin were not two men, and never had been. ;)

Exactly.

lurk
11-01-2009, 04:16 PM
I get a headache reading all these semantics, sorry about this rather crude remark, but this is how it affects me.

I see this aspect like this:
Rand has a head full of REAL memories, coming back to him in specific situations. several of them from LTT while he was mad and about killing his wife
Mat has his head filled with REAL memories from past generals, kings etc.

Rand knows that the taint on saidin drives him crazy. He also wants to remain Rand al Thor and not be LTT reborn. He hates the fact that LTT killed a woman (Ilyena). Ha cannot accept that in turning mad he could do the same. But is is foremost on his mind, every time he looks at Min, Elayne and Avi and decides that he is too weak to chase them away. In the series he continuously fights to remain Rand al thor and sane, he cannot become insane before he does his duty. That is his creed. But secretly he KNOWS he will become insane and liek LTT he will kill everybody he holds dear. THIS is eating at his mind. Must be harder, harder, harder etc.

Mat is scared by the memories, but his memories actually help him a lot, so he is more at ease accepting them as other persons memories, besides, he knows his head was filled up with these by the finns.

so what happens:
Mat actually embraces the memories and accepts them
Rand refuses the memories, The meories are a sign of becoming mad, unthinkable. So he thinks that he has a madman in his head. That MUST be the one becoming insane, not him,no noo So he must be a REAL person in his head otherwise he would have to accept that he is becoming insane himself.

So bottom line:
Rand has REAL memories of LTT in his head but he copes by constructing the madman to deal with the fact that he might end up killing everybody he holds dear, especially the women.

What happens in veins of gold? he accepts that having the memories will not automatically mean the things LTT did wil happen again, au contraire, he gets a second chance to do it RIGHT this time so he no longer needs to think of the real memories in terms of a madman in his head.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 04:18 PM
Good summation, lurk. :)

a dragonburned fool
11-04-2009, 10:07 AM
Allow me another realer approach to the most important quote first. Everything else is also important and I'll try to address it, but if the important quote is not first, I don't find a way for the whole discussion to remain focused. So:

He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
First I've seen this quote as the soiler posted by you, Terez, and I thought that yes it speaks for constructivism. And so, beginning to listen the book itself, I expected it to come finally as a revelation of how the voice was finally seen as Rand's own construct. And the scene on the Dragonmount came with all it's engulfing beauty and I listened through it without to realise where the evidence for constructivism should be and suggesting that the quote should be somewhere further. There was no such further of course, and only relistening the scene I saw that the quote in question was exactly there. But I saw it in entirelly different light. In the light of the context. And --Light!-- what a context! And I realized my first impressions about it's constructivist meaning was because that first time I have readen it outside of the context.

"for there were not to men" is an explanation for why he will never hear the voice again. So in that pre-book take of the quote I assumed that the "not to men" is also about the voice and it's manifestations in Rand's live only. Exactly as Terez stated it. It's still possible that it means that. The whole sentence has after all it's inner logic and such a side comment is completely possible for Rand to think once he dealed with the most important stuff. But this meaning doesn't fit into the context.

And the context I'm speaking here about is this: In this scene Rand doesn't thin about LTT as the voice he had conversations with in his head previously. He thinks about LTT as the man who really lived in the real Age of Legends and sealed the Bore and killed his wife and kin and died creating the Dragonmount. The same Dragonmount where Rand not accidentally is sitting thinking about this fulfilling a Seanchan prophecy about him. And Rand is taking the actrions of this man as his own, Rand's event's in his Rand's life that he has to continue. He Rand failed when killing Ilyena, and now has to fight for to give her a chance to live again. The Real LTT who lived 3000 years ago is not different man from Rand who is raised in Two Rivers - that's what this quote does really say if taken in the context.

That means it's about the two personalities themselves, not just about the voice. Compared to what Rand is thinking about here, the voice appears something of minor importance. It's not just about information form the memories, not just about inheritance. rand takes everything that LTT was, absolutely, as his own responsibility and his own cause, as his own will, exactly like the things he did in his 3Age life. There are no more two personalities in his mind, these two personalities are even not distinct.

Here comes a seeming contradiction. Because there are things to support that two incarnations of the same soul, looked from inside the life, are exactly two different men. And it's not simply some character's opinion, but Jordan's own words (in RJ blog):
Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

Furthermore, here Rand says that both personalities are not two men and never were, that they are not really distinct, but There is that known to everyone Jordan's quote about the one soul with two personalities.

Heroes of the Horn in TAR are actually not different men or women through all their inacrnations, but they have this state after their death in TAR and earn this state by "more than bravery", i.e. their state is not necessary the normal state

Does this mean that Rand is not right? Unlikely. It means however that we have to look more precisely to look about what Rand means under this "and never were". And in the context we see him thinking about all LTT's deeds as his. Doesn't it mean that "never" means that no single moment of LTT's historical life makes him different man from Rand who lives now? If it means this, then it fits into the way Rand is thinking about LTT here. If it doesn't mean this, then Rand is wrong, because different incarnations are two men sharing same soul. But Rand doesn't seem to be wrong here.

Now back to the quote: "they are never two men and never were" is explanation for why Rand will hear the voice no more. Lack of difference between the personalities is reason for the lack of voice. Therefore the reason for the presence of the voice before was the presence of this difference. This means that LTT's personality as such was responsible for the voice. Remove the cause (separate personality) and the effect (voice) is also removed. It's simple. And the word "and never were" only underlines that he is speaking here about LTT's real personality. "Never" means: neither now, nor in the Age of Legends, nor in any other moment, was LTT another man. It means the LTT is taken absolutely, not only some aspects of him.

And more about what it means for Rand to accept LTT absolutely. It's not just about saying they are the asme soul in two incarnations, because thare is a quote that normally two inacrnations are regarded two men. It's not only about information. An information can be accepted also as memories of a distinct person. And Rand knows how to accept memories in htis way - he dealt with the memories from the Rhuidean glass columns (that are proven to cause madness to other men) and the memories from the portal stone. He has therefore the experience to take an incoherent memory as some other man's and to deal with. Even if it is a memory caused by his own personality in a mirror world. He even seems to try to do this in his dark times while saying that LTT is a different but real man. Why doesn't this approach work? Why he never had seen earlier what he sees on Dragonmount.

Because there was nothing to realize earlier, since LTT was a different person. To make him the same person a creative action was needed. I mean that a personal decision was to be made of how to bring sense for LTT to die in Rand and for Rand to fight Dragon's (and LTT's) fight. An answer for the why was needed first. Until that moment they are memories briniging nothing but pain and despair no matter how hard Rand would be. There was nothing to see, because there was no sense to see it - there was only failure and madness before the decision to fight for Ilyena to can lige again.

Which means now Rand can see the situation of his soul in new light. Literally in new light, even physically in new light.

"And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been." - He opened his eyes - i.e. he sees what he never seen before. What is this never seen before? Not the new memories - the most important memories were already there. Not just the afct of two incarnation of the same men - it's not what he was be thinking about before, he already passed this step before this quote, while making the decision. What he never has seen before is sense in his life, sense for his fight.

This has lot to do with personalities. Personalities are among all other things the combination of traits, believes, prejudices and so on that make one to see the world differently from another person. One and same reality or events seen by two people make completely different accounts from every PoV. Because they are different personalities and see the world in different light, through different filtering. Rand now sees himself and the world in different light. He changed his very personality. Instead of two separate ones, he got one integrated. Not re-integrated, but integrated for the first time.

In abstract: if we take this quote in the context, it is evidence for the realers. It is still possible that it was meant independently of the context, because it is a sentence with an inner logic. In that case it speaks for the constructivists.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 11:06 AM
In abstract: if we take this quote in the context, it is evidence for the realers. It is still possible that it was meant independently of the context, because it is a sentence with an inner logic. In that case it speaks for the constructivists.

This is a very interesting interpretation.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Allow me another realer approach to the most important quote first. Everything else is also important and I'll try to address it, but if the important quote is not first, I don't find a way for the whole discussion to remain focused. So:


First I've seen this quote as the soiler posted by you, Terez, and I thought that yes it speaks for constructivism. And so, beginning to listen the book itself, I expected it to come finally as a revelation of how the voice was finally seen as Rand's own construct. And the scene on the Dragonmount came with all it's engulfing beauty and I listened through it without to realise where the evidence for constructivism should be and suggesting that the quote should be somewhere further. There was no such further of course, and only relistening the scene I saw that the quote in question was exactly there. But I saw it in entirelly different light. In the light of the context. And --Light!-- what a context! And I realized my first impressions about it's constructivist meaning was because that first time I have readen it outside of the context.

"for there were not to men" is an explanation for why he will never hear the voice again. So in that pre-book take of the quote I assumed that the "not to men" is also about the voice and it's manifestations in Rand's live only. Exactly as Terez stated it. It's still possible that it means that. The whole sentence has after all it's inner logic and such a side comment is completely possible for Rand to think once he dealed with the most important stuff. But this meaning doesn't fit into the context.

And the context I'm speaking here about is this: In this scene Rand doesn't thin about LTT as the voice he had conversations with in his head previously. He thinks about LTT as the man who really lived in the real Age of Legends and sealed the Bore and killed his wife and kin and died creating the Dragonmount. The same Dragonmount where Rand not accidentally is sitting thinking about this fulfilling a Seanchan prophecy about him. And Rand is taking the actrions of this man as his own, Rand's event's in his Rand's life that he has to continue. He Rand failed when killing Ilyena, and now has to fight for to give her a chance to live again. The Real LTT who lived 3000 years ago is not different man from Rand who is raised in Two Rivers - that's what this quote does really say if taken in the context.

That means it's about the two personalities themselves, not just about the voice. Compared to what Rand is thinking about here, the voice appears something of minor importance. It's not just about information form the memories, not just about inheritance. rand takes everything that LTT was, absolutely, as his own responsibility and his own cause, as his own will, exactly like the things he did in his 3Age life. There are no more two personalities in his mind, these two personalities are even not distinct.

Here comes a seeming contradiction. Because there are things to support that two incarnations of the same soul, looked from inside the life, are exactly two different men. And it's not simply some character's opinion, but Jordan's own words (in RJ blog):


Furthermore, here Rand says that both personalities are not two men and never were, that they are not really distinct, but There is that known to everyone Jordan's quote about the one soul with two personalities.

Heroes of the Horn in TAR are actually not different men or women through all their inacrnations, but they have this state after their death in TAR and earn this state by "more than bravery", i.e. their state is not necessary the normal state

Does this mean that Rand is not right? Unlikely. It means however that we have to look more precisely to look about what Rand means under this "and never were". And in the context we see him thinking about all LTT's deeds as his. Doesn't it mean that "never" means that no single moment of LTT's historical life makes him different man from Rand who lives now? If it means this, then it fits into the way Rand is thinking about LTT here. If it doesn't mean this, then Rand is wrong, because different incarnations are two men sharing same soul. But Rand doesn't seem to be wrong here.

Now back to the quote: "they are never two men and never were" is explanation for why Rand will hear the voice no more. Lack of difference between the personalities is reason for the lack of voice. Therefore the reason for the presence of the voice before was the presence of this difference. This means that LTT's personality as such was responsible for the voice. Remove the cause (separate personality) and the effect (voice) is also removed. It's simple. And the word "and never were" only underlines that he is speaking here about LTT's real personality. "Never" means: neither now, nor in the Age of Legends, nor in any other moment, was LTT another man. It means the LTT is taken absolutely, not only some aspects of him.

And more about what it means for Rand to accept LTT absolutely. It's not just about saying they are the asme soul in two incarnations, because thare is a quote that normally two inacrnations are regarded two men. It's not only about information. An information can be accepted also as memories of a distinct person. And Rand knows how to accept memories in htis way - he dealt with the memories from the Rhuidean glass columns (that are proven to cause madness to other men) and the memories from the portal stone. He has therefore the experience to take an incoherent memory as some other man's and to deal with. Even if it is a memory caused by his own personality in a mirror world. He even seems to try to do this in his dark times while saying that LTT is a different but real man. Why doesn't this approach work? Why he never had seen earlier what he sees on Dragonmount.

Because there was nothing to realize earlier, since LTT was a different person. To make him the same person a creative action was needed. I mean that a personal decision was to be made of how to bring sense for LTT to die in Rand and for Rand to fight Dragon's (and LTT's) fight. An answer for the why was needed first. Until that moment they are memories briniging nothing but pain and despair no matter how hard Rand would be. There was nothing to see, because there was no sense to see it - there was only failure and madness before the decision to fight for Ilyena to can lige again.

Which means now Rand can see the situation of his soul in new light. Literally in new light, even physically in new light.

"And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been." - He opened his eyes - i.e. he sees what he never seen before. What is this never seen before? Not the new memories - the most important memories were already there. Not just the afct of two incarnation of the same men - it's not what he was be thinking about before, he already passed this step before this quote, while making the decision. What he never has seen before is sense in his life, sense for his fight.

This has lot to do with personalities. Personalities are among all other things the combination of traits, believes, prejudices and so on that make one to see the world differently from another person. One and same reality or events seen by two people make completely different accounts from every PoV. Because they are different personalities and see the world in different light, through different filtering. Rand now sees himself and the world in different light. He changed his very personality. Instead of two separate ones, he got one integrated. Not re-integrated, but integrated for the first time.

Well put.

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:30 PM
tl;dr

Maybe later...

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 04:02 PM
Umm, if I could add a silly perspective?

Assume that Rand has been right all along about LT's memories flowing back and forth between the two. And that this has been happening for some time as with Moridin now.

By now can Rand claim to be a really separate entity from LT? Even if they were separated by the end of WH, Rand would still possess a lot of memories from LT. And vice versa.

So where would that leave us? Two LTs or two Rands?

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 04:18 PM
So where would that leave us? Two LTs or two Rands?
Neither. It would leave us with one Dragon. :D

Terez
11-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Here comes a seeming contradiction. Because there are things to support that two incarnations of the same soul, looked from inside the life, are exactly two different men. And it's not simply some character's opinion, but Jordan's own words (in RJ blog):
RJ is very clearly speaking here of the incarnate soul's perception of rebirth - not of the truth of the eternal soul. People believe that they will become different people when they are reborn, but they are wrong (as Rand realized finally).

Heroes of the Horn in TAR are actually not different men or women through all their inacrnations, but they have this state after their death in TAR and earn this state by "more than bravery", i.e. their state is not necessary the normal state
We have no reason to believe that other people are different - in fact, Graendal's other patients with the same problem seem to suggest that it works the same for everyone.

Now back to the quote: "they are never two men and never were" is explanation for why Rand will hear the voice no more. Lack of difference between the personalities is reason for the lack of voice. Therefore the reason for the presence of the voice before was the presence of this difference.
You just took a logic leap there. I think it's clear that Rand's assumption that they were two different men was the reason for the presence of the 'voice', along with many other factors. You are, I think, taking this one scene out of context from the rest of the series.

This means that LTT's personality as such was responsible for the voice. Remove the cause (separate personality) and the effect (voice) is also removed. It's simple. And the word "and never were" only underlines that he is speaking here about LTT's real personality. "Never" means: neither now, nor in the Age of Legends, nor in any other moment, was LTT another man. It means the LTT is taken absolutely, not only some aspects of him.
Again, a logic leap in your last sentence. You seem to draw this conclusion out of thin air. All it means is that Rand was Lews Therin all along. The evidence in the books is what shows that the 'voice' was never an accurate representation of the 'real' Lews Therin - Rand was the accurate representation of the 'real' Lews Therin, including personality, and minus the memories that he was actively suppressing.

Why doesn't this approach work? Why he never had seen earlier what he sees on Dragonmount.
As stated before, the main thing that has been keeping Rand from accepting Lews Therin's memories is the emotional trauma associated with them. That's why the scene on Dragonmount supports construct theory - he finally faced that trauma, and was then able to accept the memories, and realize that he and Lews Therin had never truly been separate.

Finally, your entire argument seems to be made in ignorance of the principles of construct theory, because the constructors never claimed that the real Lews Therin was not a part of Rand - we only claimed that he subconsciously created the 'voice' as a means of disassociating himself from those memories. Even when you claim to argue for the real'ers, you clearly acknowledge that the 'voice' was a psychological problem. The real'ers refuse to acknowledge this.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 11:50 PM
Lol.

Fight it all you want Terez, but it's pretty obvious that you completely missed the context of that scene. That is usually what happens when you don't read the book first.

Terez
11-04-2009, 11:52 PM
So says the guy couldn't even manage to vote for what he believes in.

Fight it all you want, Sodas, but you're part of a very small minority as to how that last scene should be interpreted. ;)

Sodas
11-05-2009, 12:19 AM
So says the guy couldn't even manage to vote for what he believes in.

Personal attack.

Fight it all you want, Sodas, but you're part of a very small minority as to how that last scene should be interpreted. ;)

Argument from popularity (which is doubtable since Theoryland only represents a small faction of readers).

But like I said, you should have read the book first Terez. It would have made more sense if you actually knew the context of it beforehand.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 12:27 AM
Fight it all you want, Sodas, but you're part of a very small minority as to how that last scene should be interpreted. ;)

You really need to stop doing this. Justifying your position because the majority agrees is a fallacious argument. You've appealed to the majority so many times against Sodas. Just stop arguing with him, already.

a dragonburned fool
11-05-2009, 10:54 AM
I think it's clear that Rand's assumption that they were two different men was the reason for the presence of the 'voice', along with many other factors. You are, I think, taking this one scene out of context from the rest of the series.Reading your amazing work about Rand and LTT was pleasure, and you convinced me that your interpretation is plausible and possible. But you never convinced me, that it's something more than alternative theory. The context of the rest of the series - you have an interpretation about it, I have another interpretation of it. Unlike you I never got the patience and write down all of it systematically, because I'm lazy. Shame for me. Shame for all of us, realers, actually. I hope I'll find the strength to sit and do this work. I hope that if you keep prodding me, I'll do it :) We both know that it cannot be done in cuple of words. But I'll try to at least begin to show at least something for what I mean about the context of the whole series.

And this particular statement: that exactly Rand's assumption that they are different men is reason for the presence of the voice, not, it's not clear even from your so well done work. Rand's fear and pain about what would happen when he becomes mad like every channeling man and especially like LTT - that's yes, it's a reason. But assumption that they are different, no, it's only a way to deal with the voice already present.

And not necessarily completely bad way to deal with the voice, only not good enough. Actually in the context of the series we have things to show that his assumption that they are two different men actually helped him against the presence of the voice. Such as the scene when Min told him about the vision about two men to merge, something that Rand understood as evidence that he is not mad, but that the memories are real and that LTT was another man. It helped him, and the voice returned not. The voice was lost because what Cadsuane said about voices being symptom of coming madness, and both LTT and Rand had reasons to fear it up to unpearability. But before the scene with Min that was just a paralyzied satte for Rand (and for LTT). Min's vision in the manner Rand understood it in the scene made it bearable and the voice unneeded. Before Min's vision the voice was as fearfull thing as the madness itself, after it is unneeded, both Rand and LTT can just assume the other one is another man and go on with their own agenda. Rand can take what he go from LTT whitout being troubled. The assumption that they are two men, helped.

He is still mad of course, because presence of two separate cousciousnesses in the same person is madness, no matter whether the second consciousness comes from the same soul or from another (Mordeth, Slayer) or from wolfs in a wolfbrother's mind (where the wolfbrother deals by making the wolfs distinct from himself). The fact that the voice is real makes the madness only worse.

His main problem is that he fears that he will go mad and do like LTT did. If LTT wasn't his soul, if LTT's memories were given to him by Rhuidean glass columns, eelfinns or otherwise, the problem would remain. The fact that it's the same soul, makes the problem harder, but I don't really think the difference is so great. Rand has an example of how a man affected by taint madness does terrible things to everybody he loves, and it's enough a trauma. Muradin sees memories of other souls and goes mad, the trauma doesn't depend on the source of the memories, but on their content.

Rand can deal with memories from sources different from him. He can deal with memories from Rhuidean and from the Portal Stone. In that cases distinguishing himself from the persons with the memory worked quite well. Including the case with the Portal Stones, where the one having the memories was Rand himself. There was nothing so traumatic there though. It's not the division of the personalities the problem, but the trauma, no matter whom he enviews to be it's original holder.

Even when you claim to argue for the real'ers, you clearly acknowledge that the 'voice' was a psychological problem.Yes the voice is a psychological problem. But "psychological problem" in WoT-world is not the same as "psychological problem" in realworld. In realworld psychology there is no place for the term "soul". In Randland what happens with the mind depends on the soul not less, and likely even much than on the body. And the soul contains all the past personalities independently of everything the current personality does. Two independent sentient ones in the same soul is a psychological problem deeper than anything realworld psychology can face. If Rand has to suppress a memory he doesn't need to create anything, since the alternative personality is already there, ready to jump in. Rand could only hesitate to integrate the new memories, without any attempts to suppress, and the voice still could appear. Of course if Rand never supressed memories, it would be easier for him to fight for the integration. The suppression does adds tremendous difficulties here. In any case though it would need a considerable effort.

Because integration is like a heroic deed. I meen it's like becoming a hero (I don't mean Heroes of the Horn here, just a hero). One may have all the conditions to be the hero, all the character, believes, cause, etc. But he is not a hero before completing the deed. He is the same man before and after, but he is hero only after it. After the deed one can say that he is a hero also before, that because of what he was, he was able to make the deed. And it's true. But first the deed must come. The state of hero must be earned first. It's not just realization that he is a hero. It's not the realization that makes the state of being hero, but the deed.

Similarily with integration of two personalities of the same soul. Every personality is developed from scratch, independently and separately from anything else stored in the soul. It takes a whole childhood to develope a personality at all. Some people die before to develope any personality. Later personality changes depending on choices people make. Becoming darkfriends, redeeming from darkfriendship - that are important changes depending on very shaky conditions, developements that can go differently in different incarnations. Or even in the same incarnation but in different mirror worlds. The man who became a dakfriend and the man who resisted is not the same one. The baby who died at birth, and the person who grew up are not the same one. A man who is turned to the Shadow by the 13 myrddraals circle is different from the man who escaped such fate. What would mean to accept the other life faced with such differencies? Wouldn't it be easier to think about the other one as just another man sharing the same soul, like with memories from alternative Portal Stone lifes? Wouldn't it be easier to treat them like one treats own dreams - something that apparently happened to own soul, that might have any amount of real information inside, that may be a prophecy even, but that doesn't need to identify with the PoV of the dream? What would be the point to integrate with this other personality? While there's nothing in the current personality that can make the past one deeds factor in it's current life, it wouldn't "realize" anything. There would nothing to realize, because both personalities would be just different. To integrate one would need the capability to do so. The capability to make decisions isn't there in the minds of most people, it's hard to be built and maintained virtue. Personalities are different, there must be thought out something to bridge these differencies, to make it sense for every of the personalities to be the other one, without to lose the core of their character, of what they both developed during their lifes. Accepting just the incompatible differencies would create only impredictability and chaos.

Before Dragonmounth Rand has nothing really to accept. What good to accept the summation of LTT's life experience when he created Dargonmount, since said summations means utter lack of any hope? LTT's memories are not just trauma to afce, they are in their mass forcing conclusions. Conclusions that led LTT to create Dragonmount. LTT's memories are the full context of his life and we know where this context led him to. The whole of LTT is not worth to accept before Rand went to Dargonmount. Rand had still not the solution. Without the solution he and LTT are just different. And becoming more and more similar proved very very dangerous, nearly fatal developement during the tGS book. C'mon, he was accepting more and more of the LTT, and his situation grew only worse and worse! He remembered killing Illyena, and what gave it him? Nothing. For he never knew what to do with these facts. He stopped really to care whether a thought in his head was his of LTT's, and what gave it to him? Nothing. For he never knew why should he want to be LTT. Or why should he want to be Rand. Or why should he want to be the Dragon. This "why" should be created first, and only after that there could be sense to make any integration. Joining different people without reason can make just a chaotic crowd, temporary, vague and unstable. Only if there is reason for them to act together (something dangerous the could react to, some opportunity the shouldn't lose, something wonderfull they could accomplish only together, etc..), they could integrate into an effective team, making their differencies unsignificant for the whole. The same is true for two personalities of the same soul.

At Dragonmount Rand created the "why". An "why" not only for Rand to accept LTT, but also for LTT to accept Rand. A reason to not fear the madness with it possibility to kill all beloved again. Because whatever happens, if the Dragon fights well, a chance for Illyena (or Min or anybody else who still might die in the process) to live again and to love again while the Wheel turns. Despite the returning crisis with Tarmog Gaidon at every turn of the Wheel, that problem that made Elam Morin Tedronai to despair and to become "Ishamael". It's an effective motivation, which means it's a decision (since if a motivation is effective the decision is ready), which means it's an act of will (since decision is an act of the will). A heroic decision. Two men who were different, became one man.

Finally, your entire argument seems to be made in ignorance of the principles of construct theory, because the constructors never claimed that the real Lews Therin was not a part of Rand - we only claimed that he subconsciously created the 'voice' as a means of disassociating himself from those memories.I have no problem assuming the constructors never claimed that the real Lews Therin was not a part of Rand. That's (among other things) why the constructors are wrong. I do claim that the real LTT was not part of Rand. They are two men, processed separately by the same soul. Imagine a man having a dream one night and another dream the next night. One soul - two separate experiences. Imagine some Forsaken taking the first dream and implanting it's content into the second dream finding it in GoI. The previous dream is not something created by the POV of the second dreamer, even if it's from the same sleeper. They are just different persons. The sleeper should get first some abilities of a dreamwalker to sort the whole mess out. Before that he is just a victim. Similarily with Rand and LTT. They became one man only through a heroic act.

RJ is very clearly speaking here of the incarnate soul's perception of rebirth - not of the truth of the eternal soul. People believe that they will become different people when they are reborn, but they are wrong (as Rand realized finally).Until there is no personality who would be able to see both incarnations as one, there is no sense in saying it's the same man. An ethernal soul without ethernal personality to put all the experience in one is only a source for sentient beings, just a resource for them. If personalities are unable to create such an ethernal personality due to their lack of developement (as most personalities seem to be), than there is useless to speak them as being the same man. Yes, people believe so from an incarnate soul's perspective, and they are right.

They are right because RJ said that WoT-world needs no religion, because the supernatural is evident. The existence of ethernal souls is a fact known to everybody. I'm not satisfied with how RJ puts it down, but it's so. Somehow.

And Heroes of the Horn - it is explicitely said that Heroes are rare exception, and that it's a state of being very very hard to achieve. We don't have information about anybody else's life between incarnations, save the Forsaken between recyclings who have a sort of sleeping without dreams. A suggestions that everybody has afterdeath experience similar to Heroes is completely rightful, but it's only suggestion, and it must be automatically suspected because of the stated exception status of the Heroes.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 11:07 AM
They became one man only through a heroic act.

First off, I thoroughly enjoyed this post, adbf. Great job.

Second, I especially enjoyed your explanation of heroism -- how it works, how it's retroactive once acquired, etc. And I loved how you tied it into the merging of LTT and Rand. It makes sense and it fits within the context and quotes from the books.

Well done.

Bonzi77
11-05-2009, 11:14 AM
To me, the "LT is real" theory, runs into a couple of problems. The primary one is that if Lews Therin is really there, what is he? He's not a separate soul (as per RJ) and he's obviously not a physical person (he wouldn't fit). If he's just a separate set of feelings and experiences and memories, then there's not that much difference between the real theory and the construct theory and the whole thing becomes an argument of semantics.

So the only thing left, as I see it, would be if the Lews Therin personality were somehow inside Rand and it is Lews Therin's actual personality form the AoL. But if that's the case, then how did that personality come to be lodged in Rand's mind? Was it somehow attached to the soul? How did that happen? And why does it happen to Rand and not to every (or any) other reborn soul (that we know of).

a dragonburned fool
11-05-2009, 11:37 AM
So the only thing left, as I see it, would be if the Lews Therin personality were somehow inside Rand and it is Lews Therin's actual personality form the AoL. But if that's the case, then how did that personality come to be lodged in Rand's mind? Was it somehow attached to the soul? How did that happen? And why does it happen to Rand and not to every (or any) other reborn soul (that we know of).Of course it was attached to the soul. If memories can be attached to the soul, so why personalities as such cannot ;) But sseriously, the main problem is that the personality of Rand is in no essential manner different from the personality of LTT. What is Rand's mind if not a process running on the platform of his soul and being what he is because of all the life experience, beileves, habits, etc, that this process processes as data. Put a different set of data to feed the soul's processor, and we get another personality. The problem with Rand is that because of abnormal conditions (caused by taint among other things) two processes do run at the same time. Instead of Rand to process the LTT's memories, a personality more suiatble to run them was invoked as a separate process.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 11:44 AM
To me, the "LT is real" theory, runs into a couple of problems. The primary one is that if Lews Therin is really there, what is he? He's not a separate soul (as per RJ) and he's obviously not a physical person (he wouldn't fit). If he's just a separate set of feelings and experiences and memories, then there's not that much difference between the real theory and the construct theory and the whole thing becomes an argument of semantics.

So the only thing left, as I see it, would be if the Lews Therin personality were somehow inside Rand and it is Lews Therin's actual personality form the AoL. But if that's the case, then how did that personality come to be lodged in Rand's mind? Was it somehow attached to the soul? How did that happen? And why does it happen to Rand and not to every (or any) other reborn soul (that we know of).You've certainly distilled it down to brass tacks.

To answer the question with a question, how did Lews Therin's memories come to be in Rand's head, and if they did why not Lews Therin's personality? Aside from barrier degradation, Construct theorists generally avoid talking about the mechanism. But barrier degradation would work just as well for memories as it would for the personality of an incarnation.

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:13 PM
You really need to stop doing this. Justifying your position because the majority agrees is a fallacious argument. You've appealed to the majority so many times against Sodas. Just stop arguing with him, already.
You need to stop assuming that I give a shit about your opinion. I don't - especially after comments you've been making the last few days - I have pretty much zero respect for you now.

Sodas keeps pretending like I'm advocating an illogical position. I'm just pointing out that I'm hardly alone in advocating that position. ;)

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:15 PM
Aside from barrier degradation, Construct theorists generally avoid talking about the mechanism.
Not true - we just don't all agree on it, and since it's pretty much irrelevant to construct theory, we try to keep them fairly separate.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 02:26 PM
You need to stop assuming that I give a shit about your opinion. I don't - especially after comments you've been making the last few days - I have pretty much zero respect for you now.

Well, that wasn't very nice. But you never had any respect for me anyway, so.. whatever.

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:31 PM
Hi Camel.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 02:32 PM
Hi Terez

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 05:44 PM
To answer the question with a question, how did Lews Therin's memories come to be in Rand's head, and if they did why not Lews Therin's personality? Aside from barrier degradation, Construct theorists generally avoid talking about the mechanism. But barrier degradation would work just as well for memories as it would for the personality of an incarnation.
Personally, I've always used an amnesia analogue for that particular point. If you've been hit over the head and forgotten who you are, and you eventually start getting flashes of memory seeping back into your mind, how likely is it that those memories are going to start talking to you? (Unless, of course, you're already a bit on the crazy side... ;)) Of course, you might start to act a bit differently - hints of your old personality might start showing through. But a whole 'nother personality manifesting? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

The big difference here, of course, is that the "trauma" that cut Rand off from his "other memories" was birth. Despite (possibly) understanding intellectually that he had another life before this one - literally, in this case, not metaphorically as with our amnesia case above - he doesn't have that buffer of "oh, this must be a memory from before the accident!"

... And having reread before posting, I saw you mentioned the mechanism for the memory-seepage. Well, I guess you can put me down for barrier degradation - I'm not sure I've ever committed to it before, but it seems the best bet at the moment. I'll still change my allegiance in a heartbeat if I see the logic of it, though. :)

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Personally, I've always used an amnesia analogue for that particular point. If you've been hit over the head and forgotten who you are, and you eventually start getting flashes of memory seeping back into your mind, how likely is it that those memories are going to start talking to you? (Unless, of course, you're already a bit on the crazy side... ;)) Of course, you might start to act a bit differently - hints of your old personality might start showing through. But a whole 'nother personality manifesting? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well of course, if it's just memories coming through, but that's the whole point. It's not just memories.

It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if we didn't already know that Heroes have different personalities with each incarnation. RJ's cobbled-together cosmology said that personalities develop with the incarnation, so Lews Therin was a different person than Rand.

That's the argument, at least.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 06:01 PM
Not true - we just don't all agree on it, and since it's pretty much irrelevant to construct theory, we try to keep them fairly separate.
If it's irrelevant to construct theory, it's irrelevant to "real" theory, too. Yet people keep bringing it up as an argument against "real."

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Well of course, if it's just memories coming through, but that's the whole point. It's not just memories.
You're right, that is the whole point. Originally, it was just memories. It took several books of Rand trying to convince himself that he wasn't crazy and there was another guy in his head before there was anything but memories.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 06:05 PM
You're right, that is the whole point. Originally, it was just memories. It took several books of Rand trying to convince himself that he wasn't crazy and there was another guy in his head before there was anything but memories.
So you're acknowledging there is something more than just memories? ;)

Terez
11-05-2009, 08:52 PM
If it's irrelevant to construct theory, it's irrelevant to "real" theory, too. Yet people keep bringing it up as an argument against "real."
Well, there's the question of how Rand got the memories, which is irrelevant. And then there's the question of how Lews Therin the supposedly different man got into Rand's head, which is a totally different question.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:09 PM
Pathetic

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:11 PM
What?

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:19 PM
What?

The first post, didn't read the rest.

MASSIVE CAVEAT: I'm drinking whiskey.

Still though......

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:37 PM
Care to explain what was pathetic about it?

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:46 PM
Care to explain what was pathetic about it?

this

I’ve been gloating about it for a few days now, not even having read the book really past chapter 12. I skimmed 13-23, but only really got to read 22 and 23, because the Semirhage point of view caught my eye. So, Isa has been going on about how I need to read it so I can see how it proves Lews Therin is real, but I was never worried, for the aforementioned reasons. Isa wouldn’t believe construct if BS and Harriet told her it was true directly – she would just then accuse them of making it up, and that RJ intended for Lews Therin to be real.


Skimming chapters in a bid for personal glory. I'm aghast.

When did the series cease to be a pleasure to you and become more a tool to win internet battles.

I'm genuinely confused. Because I like you.

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:47 PM
Skimming chapters in a bid for personal glory.
lol...I skimmed chapters because I only had so long in the bookstore to read, and I wanted to see what happened. And the chapters that I got to last (the ones I had to skim) didn't have anything to do with Lews Therin, or glory. :rolleyes:

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:55 PM
lol...I skimmed chapters because I only had so long in the bookstore to read, and I wanted to see what happened. And the chapters that I got to last (the ones I had to skim) didn't have anything to do with Lews Therin, or glory. :rolleyes:

I see. I guess I have a different reading experience to you. I sometimes have to block the rest of the page with my hand lest my eyes flutter down and reveal something too early.

Still can't believe you'd skim though. Shameful, perhaps, rather than pathetic, which I withdraw.

So yes, you are merely shameful now.

*awaits riposte*

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:02 PM
lol....everyone has different opinions about spoilers, you know. In any case, I was just trying to skim the chapters to see what the points of view were for each chapter, because no one had posted them on the net yet. But like I said, chapter 22 caught my eye and I just had to read. :D

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:17 PM
lol....everyone has different opinions about spoilers, you know. In any case, I was just trying to skim the chapters to see what the points of view were for each chapter, because no one had posted them on the net yet. But like I said, chapter 22 caught my eye and I just had to read. :D

I can't imagine doing it. Weird Harold (I think) said he was waiting for it from the library yet still posted freely in this section of the forum.

The sheer immediate pleasure of reading the book cover to cover, immersing yourself: that is perfection. Otherwise you could read a Wikipediad breakdown.

Reading http://www.b3ta.cr3ation.co.uk/data/gif/4705.adoremirror.gif

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:18 PM
I got spoiled for pretty much the whole book, and I still loved it. It's impossible to convey all that goodness with spoilers.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:23 PM
I got spoiled for pretty much the whole book, and I still loved it. It's impossible to convey all that goodness with spoilers.

Maybe, but fuck me, you probably didn't suffer the terror which was the worst/best part!

Like watching a horror film between your fingers, I almost squinted at the pages for the 'Throttling Min' and 'Meeting Tam' parts of the book. I genuinely believed Rand might kill them.

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:31 PM
I read that part in the bookstore before I was spoiled. That was chapter 22. ;) Also, I vaguely knew about Rand meeting Tam, I think, but I still teared up when it happened.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:37 PM
I read that part in the bookstore before I was spoiled. That was chapter 22. ;) Also, I vaguely knew about Rand meeting Tam, I think, but I still teared up when it happened.

I'm undecided whether I hate that meeting or like it. I was so confident Tam would get through to Rand. Tam's anger was as much for himself as for Cadsuane. I was a little disappointed in Nynaeve in that scene though, and I'm rarely annoyed with her.

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:46 PM
So you're acknowledging there is something more than just memories? ;)
Of course I do! Rand went to all that trouble to Construct it, after all. ;)

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Of course I do! Rand went to all that trouble to Construct it, after all. ;)

I'm glad I ignored that argument; I never understood it

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm glad I ignored that argument; I never understood it
Pfft, it's not that hard. All you need is a Bachelor's in psychology. :)

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:59 PM
Or not...

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 11:00 PM
Or not...
Seriously, what crawled up your pants tonight? It was a joke.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:07 PM
Seriously, what crawled up your pants tonight? It was a joke.

I'm guessing you're a psychologist?

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 11:56 PM
I'm guessing you're a psychologist?
I have a degree, actually, but I'm not using it.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:05 AM
Seriously, what crawled up your pants tonight? It was a joke. I'm sorry, but what was it about my comment that made you think something had 'crawled up my pants'? :confused:

Also....take heart. Arguing with real'ers is a noble use of your degree.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 10:04 AM
Well, there's the question of how Rand got the memories, which is irrelevant. And then there's the question of how Lews Therin the supposedly different man got into Rand's head, which is a totally different question.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. To Real theorists, the question of how Rand got the memories is the same question as how he got the personality of his last incarnation.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 10:06 AM
I'm sorry, but what was it about my comment that made you think something had 'crawled up my pants'? :confused:

I can't speak for Bela, but are you really confused by his question? He was making a joke, but you seemed to be taking him completely seriously. Why do you think that "Serious Business" icon keeps floating around?

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 10:08 AM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. To Real theorists, the question of how Rand got the memories is the same question as how he got the personality of his last incarnation.Yes, and the Constructivists get an added question: how Rand got LTT into his head.

So, while both have the same question about the memories (a question which can thus be ignored if the focus is on the Real/Fake debate), only the non-Realers have to worry about the origin of LTT.

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 10:24 AM
I can't speak for Bela, but are you really confused by his question? He was making a joke, but you seemed to be taking him completely seriously. Why do you think that "Serious Business" icon keeps floating around?

I know, right?

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I can't speak for Bela, but are you really confused by his question? He was making a joke, but you seemed to be taking him completely seriously.
lol...why would you assume my post was any less lighthearted?

Why do you think that "Serious Business" icon keeps floating around?
Because people are childish and have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussion?

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:33 PM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. To Real theorists, the question of how Rand got the memories is the same question as how he got the personality of his last incarnation.
I am not a real'er, so they are different questions.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 12:51 PM
lol...why would you assume my post was any less lighthearted?
Why indeed? What would have made me think you were playing along?

Because people are childish and have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussion?
I find humor valuable, not childish. Everyone else seems to agree with me. ;)

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 12:55 PM
Because people are childish and have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussion?

I'm not sure a little levity here and there is childish, nor do I think it's not valuable. When things get to serious, arguments (as opposed to debates) begin, people's egos get bruised, feelings get hurt, and things degenerate into chaos. A little lightheartedness goes a long way in creating a stable environment for discussion like this.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:55 PM
Hi Matoyak.

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 01:46 PM
Hi Terez.

Terez
11-06-2009, 01:51 PM
Hi Matoyak.

tworiverswoman
11-06-2009, 02:46 PM
LOL - there's been some major editing by the Lord of the Board, here... I'm glad. You guys were starting to froth a bit.

The "LTT is a construct" theory is logical and plausible. And has never "felt right" regardless of my admiration for it.

"LTT is real" also has problems. I used to think that Personality WAS memories -- but Mat's memories don't seem to have had a bit of effect on his personality, so I had to discard that. That makes the existence of a "real" LTT in Rand's headspace unrealistic and unreasonable. So I return to the construct theory.

Terez is right in saying that the argument regarding the source of Rand's access to the memories is totally irrelevant to the Construct theory, though it might have some meaning for the LTT is Real belief. If the Pattern simply opened the floodgates to GIVE him access, it's possible that it "gave" him an LTT to talk to as well. Shrug. It's possible. Doesn't seem reasonable, though.

I have no idea if Brandon has inserted his own viewpoint into his writing, or if he's working from something RJ left behind -- this isn't a question I've seen asked. Did I miss something? If no one has asked, this might be a good question to add to the list.

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 03:44 PM
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't make a shits bit of difference either way. That's just me though.


Kurtz...what kind of whiskey? Can I... y'know...have a sip? A wee little bit to wet my lips and clear my dusty throat?

Terez
11-06-2009, 03:47 PM
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't make a shits bit of difference either way.
It makes a difference because 'real' theory attributes Rand's thoughts and emotions to Lews Therin, thereby misinterpreting Rand's character entirely.

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 03:50 PM
It makes a difference because 'real' theory attributes Rand's thoughts and emotions to Lews Therin, thereby misinterpreting Rand's character entirely.

Which one are you? Cause I have a feeling I'm the other ;)

I don't have a problem interpreting Rands character at all. It comes naturally to me, I suppose. Such is the luxury of a clear mind....

Kurtz...maybe a little less clarity would be....nice. ~shakes an empty glass~

Terez
11-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Which one are you?
If you can't deduce that from the statement I made, then you have serious reading comprehension issues.

Cause I have a feeling I'm the other
Yet another clear-cut example of intellectual dishonesty...

Tamyrlin
11-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Oh...you just came to irritate Terez...now it's all making sense.

Did you miss a feeding? :)

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 04:00 PM
If you can't deduce that from the statement I made, then you have serious reading comprehension issues.


Yet another clear-cut example of intellectual dishonesty...

I can't deduce it because I didn't read any of it. It's not a comprehension issue. It's a give a crap issue.

I'm here for the comedic value of the thread as a whole, rather than the construct of the thing.

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 04:08 PM
Oh...you just came to irritate Terez...now it's all making sense.

Did you miss a feeding? :)

Naw...I'm working on a theory. Don't laugh, butthead....

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 05:52 PM
I'm here for the comedic value of the thread as a whole, rather than the construct of the thing.
It's Real.

Terez
11-06-2009, 05:55 PM
Your mom is real.

greatwolf
11-06-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm sorry, but what was it about my comment that made you think something had 'crawled up my pants'?

Also....take heart. Arguing with real'ers is a noble use of your degree.

Wow. That one made me fall off the couch laughing.

"LTT is real" also has problems. I used to think that Personality WAS memories -- but Mat's memories don't seem to have had a bit of effect on his personality, so I had to discard that. That makes the existence of a "real" LTT in Rand's headspace unrealistic and unreasonable. So I return to the construct theory

Personality is a lot different from memories though. Personality is memory plus other stuff including attitude. Mat has the memories but not personalities, of lots of battle hungry folks. Birgitte has a lot of memories of same personality. Rand/LT have two personalities. This might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 05:58 PM
Your mom is real.
Yeah but we're not the same person. We never were.

Terez
11-06-2009, 06:05 PM
Personality is a lot different from memories though. Personality is memory plus other stuff including attitude. Mat has the memories but not personalities, of lots of battle hungry folks. Birgitte has a lot of memories of same personality. Rand/LT have two personalities. This might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder LOL! Dissociative identity disorder? You do realize that is what the constructors have been arguing all along, right?

EDIT: Well, actually, there are some differences, such as the fact that Rand doesn't suffer from memory loss when Lews Therin 'takes over' (which is rare - it's usually just the 'voice'). In a lot of ways it's more similar to schizophrenia, but despite the technical definition of 'dissociative identity disorder', the words themselves describe what's going on rather perfectly. Rand is disassociating himself from Lews Therin's memories, and therefore perceives Lews Therin to be a separate person.

greatwolf
11-06-2009, 06:44 PM
Glad you noticed the differences T.

Absence of memory loss is a major factor and just one of many that makes diagnosis of MPD tenous (at best) in this case.

Even with schiz, how do you want to prove loss of cognition (ability to tell what's real and what's not?). But then, we've never been able to tell what's real at TL...:p

Most scifi novels usually hold true to a maxim in terms of sanity. If a person can still question his/her sanity, then they're likely not insane. You get the logic of that don't you?

There was a wolfbrother that was mad in tDR though, and he had nothing close to Rand's case. OTOH, a few of the forsaken have said that Ishy/Moridin is a nutter but we don't see loss of cognition or memory lapses there as well.

In all, whatever Rand has, it isn't MPD by the usual standards. It just appears so.

Terez
11-06-2009, 06:47 PM
Glad you noticed the differences T. I have pointed out the differences on this forum many times before. ;)

Most scifi novels usually hold true to a maxim in terms of sanity. If a person can still question his/her sanity, then they're likely not insane. You get the logic of that don't you? He's definitely not 'insane' as that's a legal term describing someone who is incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong. It applied to taint-taken Lews Therin, but not after Ishamael 'Healed' him.

In all, whatever Rand has, it isn't MPD by the usual standards. We have never said it was. Yet you provide this as an explanation of what is going on in Rand's head?

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 08:18 PM
I used to think that Personality WAS memories -- but Mat's memories don't seem to have had a bit of effect on his personality, so I had to discard that.

I'm not so sure that Mat's Memories haven't/don't change his personality:

eWOT chapter summary
aCoS Chpater 21

She says her memories and hero status are fading. Mat says he does not have any secrets and she answers in the Old Tongue, "Nosane iro gavane domorakoshi, Diynen'd'ma'purvene?" = "Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn?" [B]She says his accent changes from an Eharoni High Prince to a First Lord of Manetheren. They both remember Tovans from a thousand years ago. They both promise to keep each other's secret. They go downstairs to drink. The dice are so loud Mat thinks, "She must be a key to it, somehow."


IIRC, What she says in full is that his accent and mannerisms change to perfect copies of past times.

Mat eventually got over that as the gifted memories merged with his own. The key difference is that Mat knew where the strange memories came from and why he had them; he had no particular fear of them, nor any particular reason to repress them. His subconscious had very little to work with and the memories weren't a coherent whole.

Birgitte doesn't have any need to integrate the past life memories she has; she was ripped out of T'A'R fully integrated.

Rand has no idea that other people's memories are even possible, let alone a "normal" part of a Soul's history. Also, the memories Rand can't explain belong to the Kinslayer who Broke the World and Thom was telling ghost stories about Shadar Logoth and possession by spirits when Rand's first few LTT memories started to surface.

Rand was set up to interpret the memories as possession or taint madness, which had to be fought and suppressed.

Whether Rand was fighting possession by a previous personality or his subconscious re-constructed the personality from the memories Rand tried to suppress, The end result was a voice in Rand's head and a secondary persona that occasionally tried to take over.


Brandon did say in response to a question touching on LTT that "RJ left the question open" -- probably because "Real" and "Memorex" are indisdinguishable from each other.

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 08:41 PM
It's Real.

Hey! Lets try to be constructive.

nameless
11-06-2009, 08:51 PM
Glad you noticed the differences T.

Absence of memory loss is a major factor and just one of many that makes diagnosis of MPD tenous (at best) in this case.

Even with schiz, how do you want to prove loss of cognition (ability to tell what's real and what's not?). But then, we've never been able to tell what's real at TL...:p

Most scifi novels usually hold true to a maxim in terms of sanity. If a person can still question his/her sanity, then they're likely not insane. You get the logic of that don't you?

There was a wolfbrother that was mad in tDR though, and he had nothing close to Rand's case. OTOH, a few of the forsaken have said that Ishy/Moridin is a nutter but we don't see loss of cognition or memory lapses there as well.

In all, whatever Rand has, it isn't MPD by the usual standards. It just appears so.

Multiple personality disorder is NOT the same as dissociative personality disorder... MPD is an obselete diagnoses that has fallen into disuse as doctors have gained more understanding of the condition, which is why they coined the new term. It might seem like I'm just splitting hairs but the differences are actually fairly relevant to the discussion. The problem comes down to what you're saying: this is a sci-fi/fantasy novel based on pop culture interpretations of insanity, whereas DPD is a real diagnosis. Pop culture tends to treat schizophrenia and DPD as interchangeable. While schizophrenics do sometimes hear voices they do not manufacture complete personalities to accompany those voices, and the voices do not have any control over their motor functions. DPD patients, on the other hand, do create complete alternate personalities, usually as a result of some traumatic experience that caused the original personality to dissociate entirely. The new personality is created to contain the memories and experiences the original personality refuses to engage with. Rand has no initial dissociation because he has no initial trauma, but rather a set of memories that genuinely did not belong to him. In this respect the mechanism of his condition is almost the opposite of DPD: instead of disowning experiences from his own life he is forced to own up to experiences from someone else's life. However, the second half of the mechanism, ie. the creation of a new personality to account for the disowned memories, fits DPD like a glove. What does this mean? It means that if Rand were a real life patient we could say beyond the shadow of a doubt that LTT was a construct. Unfortunately, he's not a real patient, but a fictional character, meaning we're probably better off trying to diagnose him with evidence from the books instead of wikipedia's summary of the DSM.

/rant

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 09:43 PM
This is what I get for having a Real Life™ today, I suppose...

Because people are childish and have nothing valuable to contribute to the discussion?
That's right, you guys should be ashamed.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

Yeah but we're not the same person. We never were.
That's my joke, buddy. :mad:

Absence of memory loss is a major factor and just one of many that makes diagnosis of MPD tenous (at best) in this case.
It is a major factor, you are correct. To nitpick, though, a diagnosis according to the DSM-IV does not require a person to exhibit all of the symptoms of a particular condition, just most of them. Even so, Rand is definitely not suffering from a 100% classical case of MPD - it's just very close, especially for a work of fantasy fiction.

Hey! Lets try to be constructive.
You, stop being funny.

Multiple personality disorder is NOT the same as dissociative personality disorder... MPD is an obselete diagnoses that has fallen into disuse as doctors have gained more understanding of the condition, which is why they coined the new term.... Unfortunately, he's not a real patient, but a fictional character, meaning we're probably better off trying to diagnose him with evidence from the books instead of wikipedia's summary of the DSM.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but I have two questions/problems

a) I'll admit I've not followed the literature a lot since I graduated, but is this a new development that MPD has "fallen into disuse"? Because it was certainly still a valid (if much-disputed) diagnosis just a few years ago.

b) Not all of us are using "wikipedia's summary of the DSM." No need to belittle. :)

nameless
11-06-2009, 10:52 PM
My understanding is that the diagnosis was being phased out in favor of DID/DPD, although that could just be the prejudice of the therapists I've talked to and not actual medical cannon. As far as I can tell the major difference is that the dissociative identity diagnosis directly addresses the inciting incident as well as the alternate personality, whereas MPD addresses only the latter. Someone who's been to med school could probably explain it more accurately.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 11:27 PM
My understanding is that the diagnosis was being phased out in favor of DID/DPD, although that could just be the prejudice of the therapists I've talked to and not actual medical cannon. As far as I can tell the major difference is that the dissociative identity diagnosis directly addresses the inciting incident as well as the alternate personality, whereas MPD addresses only the latter. Someone who's been to med school could probably explain it more accurately.
Just dug out my textbook (yeah, I kept the interesting ones ;)), and it treats MPD and DID as different terms for the same thing. The "inciting incident" wasn't mentioned at all under that subheader - there's just a discussion of possible explanations for all dissociative disorders.

So maybe it's just been a terminology shift over the last few years, or maybe there's just differences of opinions across the board. As I said, I don't really have my ear to the ground for this sort of thing anymore, I might be slightly out of date on this one. ~shrug~

nameless
11-06-2009, 11:35 PM
I meant the initial dissociation, although honestly I'd believe your textbook over my opinion :p

Seeker
11-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Having read most of this thread, I have to say that I believe what's going on here is one of the biggest cases of miscommunication in Theoryland history. (And we've had some doozies).

The constructors seem to be shouting, "The sky is blue!" And the realers seem to be shouting, "The grass is green!" And surprisingly no one seems to be realizing that the two statements can be simultaneously true.

I, by the way, am a member of neither faction, and find the terms "realer" and "constructor" to be distasteful. But that's beside the point.

All right, let's start with the construct theory. I think it's very clear, and always has been, that the only reason Rand had a "Lews Therin" personality is that he's worked so hard to define himself as "Rand al'Thor." The harder he clung to the identity of "Rand al'Thor," the more powerful the "Lews Therin" personality became.

There is no separate soul.
There is no separate "man."
The book makes it incredibly clear. "They were not two men and never had been."

And - as I've suspected - the instant Rand figured out the simple formula of Rand al'Thor = Lews Therin Telamon, the personalities merged. It's really that simple.

However, I should point something out. Rand did not create the personality of "Lews Therin Telamon." He created the personality of "Rand Al'Thor." "Lews Therin" is simply everything that was left over. So if anything was a construct here it was "Rand." But essentially, yes. Take away the semantics and I agree with Terez.

I want that clear, Terez. I agree with you.

Now, what the Realers are saying is that "Lews Therin" had a separate consciousness. Now, that's a different issue all together. I believe what the realers are talking about here is that "Lews Therin" has autonomy. "He" can do things and Rand can't stop him.

If this is what the realers mean, then I think you're going to find it hard to deny that "Lews Therin" has autonomy because we've seen him exercise it. He's taken control of saidin at least once. And it's possible (but by no means certain) that he's taken brief control of Rand's bodily functions.

This does not make the "Lews Therin" personality any less of a construct. I submit to you that what we've seen is the very definition of multiple personality disorder. A person, who cannot cope, constructs a separate personality and over time, that personality gradually becomes autonomous to the point where the personality can take control.

Is the personality real?
Well, it takes control, so I can't call it "fake."

Is it a construct?
Yes. The new personality was created in response to the psychological issues of the original personality.

So, if by "real" you mean that "Lews Therin" is autonomous (able to assert at least limited control) then yes, he is real AND constructed.

If however, you mean something else by "a separate consciousness" besides simple autonomy, then I simply cannot answer the question.

Finally, Isa, I think we can conclude that the "Lews Therin" personality is at least SIMILAR to that of Lews Therin the man. Though it may not be precisely the same. However, this does not make him any less of a construct.

And I believe that's all there is to say on the matter.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 12:43 AM
And I believe that's all there is to say on the matter.
If that was true, this would be a much quieter board. ;)

I think that the main difference between the arguments isn't entirely semantic - from what I understand of the Realer camp (and this is a bloody great summing-up), the personality of LTT popped into Rand's head fully formed, along with the memories. Whereas the Constructor camp thinks that the personality of LTT was built up out of all of Rand's neuroses and merely fed by the memories.

Is the personality real?
Well, it takes control, so I can't call it "fake."
At least in Isa's version of the theory, she maintains that LTT's personality was pretty-much literally transplanted whole from his head into Rand's - that's what she means by "real." Whether that's actually the most common form of Realism - well, then, you may be closer to the mark. ;)

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:43 AM
The constructors seem to be shouting, "The sky is blue!" And the realers seem to be shouting, "The grass is green!" And surprisingly no one seems to be realizing that the two statements can be simultaneously true.
Wrong. The issue of semantics has been addressed several times.

The real'ers do not acknowledge the psychological aspect of Rand's creation of the voice, at all. This is and always has been our main point of disagreement, despite the countless straw men that real'ers try to throw into the argument. Like this one:

However, I should point something out. Rand did not create the personality of "Lews Therin Telamon."
No constructor ever claimed that he did. The real personality of Lews Therin is a part of Rand. He created the 'voice'.

I want that clear, Terez. I agree with you.
Yay. We discussed this a few years ago in chat, and I tried to explain the same things then, but apparently you didn't listen.

Isabel
11-07-2009, 01:24 AM
At least in Isa's version of the theory, she maintains that LTT's personality was pretty-much literally transplanted whole from his head into Rand's - that's what she means by "real." Whether that's actually the most common form of Realism - well, then, you may be closer to the mark. ;)

Not exactly how i would call it ;P

Seeker
11-07-2009, 01:43 AM
Wrong. The issue of semantics has been addressed several times.

The real'ers do not acknowledge the psychological aspect of Rand's creation of the voice, at all. This is and always has been our main point of disagreement, despite the countless straw men that real'ers try to throw into the argument.

Well then you are correct.

No constructor ever claimed that he did. The real personality of Lews Therin is a part of Rand. He created the 'voice'.

Are you sure that Rand created the voice and not the taint? The answer to this is irrelevant.

The difference between "Rand" and "Lews Therin" was and always has been psychosomatic. Realize that the problem is psychosomatic and the problem goes away.


I think that the main difference between the arguments isn't entirely semantic - from what I understand of the Realer camp (and this is a bloody great summing-up), the personality of LTT popped into Rand's head fully formed, along with the memories. Whereas the Constructor camp thinks that the personality of LTT was built up out of all of Rand's neuroses and merely fed by the memories.

This is difficult to address. For one thing, the "Lews Therin" personality is insane and Lews Therin - for most of his life - was not. I do believe that RJ intended for the "Lews Therin" voice to be a reflection of who Lews Therin really was, but I cannot say the former is an exact copy of the latter.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 01:53 AM
MPD is an obselete diagnoses

Great :D

whereas DPD is a real diagnosis

Can I coin this? can I?

Unfortunately, he's not a real patient,

Careful.:mad:

meaning we're probably better off trying to diagnose him with evidence from the books instead of wikipedia's summary of the DSM.

DPD usually have memory loss for the period of time when the alternate personality takes over. Blackouts and stuff. I've asked Terez to remind us of Rand's blackouts. :p

Terez
11-07-2009, 01:59 AM
I never claimed that he had them. I also never claimed that Rand had MPD. Something similar to MPD, yes, but not MPD. I've clarified this so many times that I am starting to wonder if I should coin a new psychological disorder to describe your broken record problem.

Are you sure that Rand created the voice and not the taint?
The taint had an influence, but Rand's motivations were, I think, quite obviously the main reason why the voice was created.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Not exactly how i would call it ;P
~throws up his hands in defeat~

Y'know, if I'm consistently unable to accurately describe your position in this matter, that pretty strongly implies that you're not explaining it well enough for me to understand. ;)

Isabel
11-08-2009, 12:01 AM
~throws up his hands in defeat~

Y'know, if I'm consistently unable to accurately describe your position in this matter, that pretty strongly implies that you're not explaining it well enough for me to understand. ;)

as pretty-much literally transplanted whole from his head into Rand's

I have said the voice was the real voice of LTT. I meant to imply rand had suddenly acces to it all. You can see the voice appearing gradually.

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 12:55 AM
In my mind, the realers position is whatever the constructors is not ;)

The construction idea just doensn't make much logical sense to me. some, but not enough. On top of that, it also feels wrong.

Individual realers all seem to have different ideas but we all agree LTT's voice was not something Rand (or his subconscious) made up.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:25 AM
I have said the voice was the real voice of LTT. I meant to imply rand had suddenly acces to it all. You can see the voice appearing gradually.
The way I understand your theory, LTT's personality could have been transplanted whole (incidentally, the only way it could be "real"), but Rand could not have full access to it right away.

Yes? No?

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2009, 04:48 AM
Let me try to cook something up. With just a bit of luck, it'll confuse everyone equally.

In the WoT universe, we have the soul/mind/body trinity. Usually, a human has one of each if he is alive.

The soul stores up the minds (including memories) of past lives.
In TAR, the soul of the Heroes has access to all their past lives, and generates a sort of composite personality from that, with most weight given to the most recent lives. This is what Birgitte had, but when she reentered the 'real' world, she started to develop an 'ordinary' mind, losing access to her earlier lives in the process.
When a person is reborn in an ordinary way, there is no working connection between his mind during that live and his past ones.

In the case of Rand, wielding Callandor triggered a link between his life as Rand and the mind of LTT stored on his soul. Thus, what he was talking to, and what was supplying those memories, was actually the real LTT. After the second Big Change, on Dragonmount, Rand achieved a Hero like reintegration, with once again most weight going to his most recent live (as Rand al'Thor). But, since there is no longer a really separate LTT entity (at least, not until after he dies and is reborn, when the soul will restore the barriers), he won't hear the voice anymore.

the_dead
11-08-2009, 05:43 AM
The construction idea just doensn't make much logical sense to me. some, but not enough. On top of that, it also feels wrong.

Individual realers all seem to have different ideas but we all agree LTT's voice was not something Rand (or his subconscious) made up.
This is how I see it. I am not sure how it happend, but I believe it got there some how.

Sukoto
11-08-2009, 01:46 PM
So, I finally finished reading the book last night. I must say, BS took pains to hash out this problem and resolve it. It's as if he had read all of the argumentative threads on Theoryland and said to himself, "Those 'real-ers' are so full of s***, I've GOT to clear this one up once and for all."

Oh, I'm sure this must have already been mentioned, but did you all notice how theoryland.com is mentioned in print on the inside back cover of the book?

So anyway, I'm glad Cadsuane was finally exposed as the awful hag that she is. Go Tam! Now, if she would just hurry up and die...

Seeker
11-08-2009, 02:48 PM
I have said the voice was the real voice of LTT.

Isa, could you please explain to me what this means.

The real voice of LTT?

Is it that the acoustic quality of the voice is the same as the that of the voice Lews Therin had in life? Because that's really the only sensible way I can interpret your statement.

Rand and Lews Therin are the same person. So that means that everything Rand thinks came from Lews Therin - the drawing, the thumbing his ear, the humming - all of those things are just aspects of himself. There was never any "barrier" between Lews Therin and Rand: that was merely one of Rand's delusions.

So, what do you mean by "the voice of the real LTT?" Rand is the real LTT!

Sodas
11-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Isa, could you please explain to me what this means.

The real voice of LTT?

Is it that the acoustic quality of the voice is the same as the that of the voice Lews Therin had in life? Because that's really the only sensible way I can interpret your statement.

Rand and Lews Therin are the same person. So that means that everything Rand thinks came from Lews Therin - the drawing, the thumbing his ear, the humming - all of those things are just aspects of himself. There was never any "barrier" between Lews Therin and Rand: that was merely one of Rand's delusions.

So, what do you mean by "the voice of the real LTT?" Rand is the real LTT!

If there never was a barrier, then why can't Rand remember any memories of Sealing the Bore or the planning behind it, and have to rely on the voice of LTT.

Seeker
11-08-2009, 04:35 PM
If there never was a barrier, then why can't Rand remember any memories of Sealing the Bore or the planning behind it, and have to rely on the voice of LTT.

Well, I said that to reinforce the idea that Rand and Lews Therin are one person and not two.

He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

A barrier can only exist between two separate things. That is the definition of a barrier. You cannot have a barrier between a thing and itself - the very concept is contradictory. If there are not two things but only one then there is no barrier. And I refuse to redefine the word "barrier" to anything other than its common English usage just to support someone's theory.

So it stands to reason that if Rand's conception of himself and Lews Therin being separate people was only in his head, then any talk of a barrier between them was also only in his head.

Why didn't Rand remember how he sealed the bore last time? Well, because the process of recalling Lews Therin's life is - and always has been - a gradual process.

Terez
11-08-2009, 09:38 PM
So, I finally finished reading the book last night. I must say, BS took pains to hash out this problem and resolve it. It's as if he had read all of the argumentative threads on Theoryland and said to himself, "Those 'real-ers' are so full of s***, I've GOT to clear this one up once and for all."
I know, right? Chapter 15 in particular made me think that, when Min and Rand argue construct vs real, lol. Also, he's said at a signing report that the arguments on Theoryland have helped him to know which arguments should be addressed in the book. That was clear to me when I was reading it, but it's nice to have confirmation.

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 11:25 PM
If I build the floor of a tree house between two branches are they now suddenly seperate? Does the floor not funtion as a barrier?

Neilbert
11-09-2009, 12:25 AM
No, they are still part of the same tree. :confused:

Lord Bloodpath
11-09-2009, 12:53 AM
that is my point.

on top of that, the floor allows me to stand upon it and most certainly acts as a barrier between myself and the ground, between the sunlight and the leaves beneath, etc.

it's very easy for me to think of Rand and LTT as two branches of the same tree. If they were both fairly vertical and poked through the floor in different places, it would very much look like two smaller trees coming up through the floor. But if you could see beneath, you would realize that it's the same tree and always had been.

Neilbert
11-09-2009, 01:06 AM
The quote isn't about the whole tree though, just Rand and Lews Therin.

PS: **yawwwn**

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Why didn't Rand remember how he sealed the bore last time? Well, because the process of recalling Lews Therin's life is - and always has been - a gradual process.
That seems just a bit ridiculous. How can there be a "Lews Therin life" if it is not separate from Rand's life. I mean, most sane people here agree that Rand is Lews Therin reborn, right? They are of the same soul. But does anyone actually think the lifetime that Lews Therin led was the same as Rand's lifetime? Or that Lews Therin somehow had access to Rand's future memories?

Rand's memories = Lews Therin's memories, except not, because Rand didn't exist until the Third Age. Given that Rand wasn't born with access to all the memories means that there was a...wait for it...barrier. The "gradual process" is a gradual process of those memories floating across a barrier, isn't it? What else could it be?

Seeker
11-09-2009, 01:43 PM
If I build the floor of a tree house between two branches are they now suddenly seperate? Does the floor not funtion as a barrier?[/qupte]

Yes, they are separate. Your very statement makes them so. Two branches. Those are two different things.

Also, this example is so hypothetical that I honestly can't picture what you're trying to describe.

[QUOTE=Crispin]That seems just a bit ridiculous. How can there be a "Lews Therin life" if it is not separate from Rand's life. I mean, most sane people here agree that Rand is Lews Therin reborn, right? They are of the same soul. But does anyone actually think the lifetime that Lews Therin led was the same as Rand's lifetime? Or that Lews Therin somehow had access to Rand's future memories?

Rand's memories = Lews Therin's memories, except not, because Rand didn't exist until the Third Age. Given that Rand wasn't born with access to all the memories means that there was a...wait for it...barrier. The "gradual process" is a gradual process of those memories floating across a barrier, isn't it? What else could it be?

You're Sdog, right? (Irrelevant, I just wanted to know who I was talking to).

To answer your question. Yes, of course, Rand's life is separate from Lews Therin's life. (Although how separate is debatable since Rand seems to be picking up where Lews Therin left off). But Rand is Lews Therin. They are two different incarnations of the same man. But they are the same man. The book states this explicitly: they are not two men and never had been.

Every time that Rand spoke of a barrier between himself and Lews Therin, he did so with the understanding that Lews Therin was a different person than himself. Once he identifies Lews Therin as himself, once the notion of two separate people goes away, the notion of a barrier between them goes away as well.

To answer your second question, 'The "gradual process" is a gradual process of those memories floating across a barrier, isn't it? What else could it be?'

Any number of things can cause this. Whenever I'm asked this question, I always answer the same way: what's the point of writing a story about reincarnation if your character isn't influenced by his past life? The notion that Rand's memories of Lews Therin's life requires precludes the idea of Lews Therin's life influencing him. Unless you invent a mechanism to break down the wall.

And many posters do just that. Some say it's the taint. Some say it was Callandor. Some people believe it was because the Horn of Valere was blown in his presence. Everyone invents a theory as to how the wall that blocked of Rand's past life memories could be demolished. All of these theories are full of issues and logical holes that make my head hurt. (I won't discuss them here as that would take so long that it would hi-jack the thread).

No one's considered the option that Rand's memories of Lews Therin (and his other lives) simply weren't walled off in the first place.

I prefer a much more intuitive answer. Rand's memories of Lews Therin's life were always there; they were just dormant, buried in his subconscious and subtly influencing him to become the man he is. In fact, Rand even has a dream at the very beginning of the series where he sees Shayol Ghul and thinks "I've been here before." And at this time, he hadn't yet touched Callandor, he hadn't seen the Horn, and if he had channeled at all, it was barely a whisper of saidin.

The book seems to be telling us that his memories were always there.

People, in real life, who believe in reincarnation, believe this is how it works. Your knowledge of your previous life is always there, in your sub-conscious, influencing you. Many of them believe that it can be accessed by various meditation techniques. Why shouldn't this concept translate to fiction.

And finally, Rand began to consciously remember Lews Therin's life for some very good reasons.

Rand is the only character in this series to have direct contact with the SAME people he knew in a former life. He is the only person to directly handle artifacts he once owned in a former life. Those experiences "woke up" the part of Rand that is Lews Therin. If these experiences won't make you remember your past lives, I don't know what will. But the process is a gradual one.

The taint turned it into a form of insanity. (the taint and the pyschological pressures on Rand).

That's my take.

Terez
11-09-2009, 01:46 PM
For your explanation to work, then Semirhage's account of Graendal's patients has to be a lie, unless you think they were confronted with things from past lives to bring their past life memories to the forefront. Seems a lot to bank on.

Seeker
11-09-2009, 04:21 PM
For your explanation to work, then Semirhage's account of Graendal's patients has to be a lie, unless you think they were confronted with things from past lives to bring their past life memories to the forefront. Seems a lot to bank on.

Not at all. You're misrepresenting my argument.

I said that Rand's experiences were a sufficient condition to make him recall his former life. I did not say they were a necessary condition. It is entirely possible that any number of circumstances can trigger one to recall a past life. Graendel's patients didn't have to have the same experiences that Rand did.

Think about it, Terez. Have you ever wondered how the WOT characters know they are reborn? Societies invariably have a wide range of religions and a wide range of death myths; and yet everyone in Randland knows that when they die, they will be reborn again and again.

How?

The only possible way that all the people, across all the societies of Randland, could possibly know for certain that they will be reborn after death is if someone claimed to have knowledge of a past life and that knowledge was independently verified to be accurate.

In short, someone has to prove that they know something that they could not have learned in their current lifetime; and that information has to be verified by independent sources.

Rand, himself, is an example of this. But he cannot be the only example because if he was, then the knowledge of reincarnation would have been lost with the turning of the Wheel, just as the knowledge of the Dark One was lost.

In fact, the only way the knowledge of rebirth can be maintained with the turning of the Wheel is if people, who recall their past lives, sprout up frequently enough to keep the knowledge of reincarnation alive.

That means that mechanisms for recalling one's past life cannot be Age specifc. The triggers that make one recall one's past lives have to be something that can occur in any age. We know from the existence of Graendel's patients that instances of past-life recall have occurred in the Age of Legends and at the time, there was no taint. There was no Callandor (until the War). And I don't think anyone blew the Horn of Valere.

Now, you could say - as Callandor (the poster) has - that yes, there are certainly other methods of recalling your past lives but the taint is the one that applied to Rand. But, I ask you, why bother with all that mental effort?

I can debunk any of the big three causes with the same simple questions.

THE TAINT
We know that there are triggers to recalling a past life that have nothing to do with the taint. (Or Graendel wouldn't have patients).

We know that the taint does not universally give one past life memories. (None of the other Asha'man exhibit past life memories, not even in the form of vague impressions.)

We know that Rand is a specific soul that was prophesied to be reborn. (Which strongly implies he's going to learn about his past life no matter what?)

So we have causes for past life memories that don't involve the taint; and we know the taint doesn't universally cause past life memories. So why involve it at all in this discussion?

CALLANDOR:
We know there are causes for past life memories that have nothing to do with Callandor. (See above)

Jahar Narishma has wielded Callandor and he doesn't seem to recall his past lives.

So we have causes for past life memories that don't involve Callandor. And we know that Callandor doesn't universally cause past life memories. So why involve Callandor at all in the discussion?

THE HORN OF VALERE:
I'm sure you all can construct the same arguments.

Perrin was in hearing range of the Horn and doens't have past life memories.

I submit to you, that a simpler, more intuitive explanation of past life memories is needed. No barriers and no mechanisms for breaking them down.

I don't know if I can generalize for the entire population, since the only person who I've seen experience past life memories is Rand. But it seems to me that Rand is also the only person to have direct contact with the people he knew and the things he touched in a former life.

Most new age "mystics" tell you that if you can hold something you once owned in a past life, you'll start to remember who you used to be. Now, I'm not calling RJ a new age mystic. But reincarnation in literature is often based on these same concepts.

I believe, very strongly, that Rand's experiences with the Forsaken, with Lanfear and Asmodean in particular, with Callandor and the Choeden'Kal, and possibly with Elayne (who reminds him of Ilyena) simply jogged his memory.

I do not believe that this is the ONLY way to jog one's memory.

nameless
11-09-2009, 04:23 PM
We aren't told anything about Graendal's past-life regression patients except that they existed. Lanfear mentions them also, so there's a good chance Semi was telling the truth, or at least part of the truth. But for all we know they were all historians or archaeologists... or none of them were and the phenomenon is completely random. Any theory we come up with that involves them is pure speculation, although I lean towards the "contact with past life artifacts jogged his memory" explanation myself.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 03:53 AM
CALLANDOR:
We know there are causes for past life memories that have nothing to do with Callandor. (See above)

Jahar Narishma has wielded Callandor and he doesn't seem to recall his past lives.

So we have causes for past life memories that don't involve Callandor. And we know that Callandor doesn't universally cause past life memories. So why involve Callandor at all in the discussion?Because Callandor had been warded specifically to the DR alone, and it was one of the big signals of the return of LTT to the world of the living.
It may very well be that Rand touching Callandor is what really triggered his acquisition of the memories (and the personality) of LTT.

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 07:08 AM
Further about the crisis at Dragonmount, that chapter 50: the very way the crisis and the admitting by Rand of the traumatizing memories is speaking directly against the constructivist theory in Terez' variant, the way I understand Terez' main point.

Do I undestand right, that according to Constructivism teh reason for the Voice is Rand's unabiliyt to admit some LTT memories, most importantly the killing of Ilyena, Rand's unability to think about it, his attempt to suppress these memories, to make them separate from himself? Do I undestand it right also, that according to constructivist theory (in Terez' version) if Rand finally admits that he did what LTT did, than there will be no more need of LTT Voice?

Well, in chapter 50 Rand finally admits all the traumatizing memories, and does it with much detail, leaving nothing ignored, drawing all the painful consequences, he deliberately embraces everything the constructivists said he supressed, and it was actually the very peak of his crisis, and it was not the end of LTT's voice.
tGS, ch.50:
"And what if I don't want the Pattern to continue?" he bellowed. He stepped forward, right to the edge of the rock, clutching the access key to his chest.
"We live the same lives!" he yelled at them. "Over and over and over. We make the same mistakes. Kingdoms do the same stupid things. Rulers fail their people time and time again. Men continue to hurt and hate and die and kill!"
Winds buffeted him, whipping at his brown cloak and his fine Tairen trousers. But his words carried, echoing across the broken rocks of Dragonmount. It was cold and crisp, the air new. His weave kept him warm enough to survive, but it did not stop the chill. He hadn't wanted it to.
"What if I think it's all meaningless?" he demanded with the loud voice of a king. "What if I don't want it to keep turning? We live our lives by the blood of others! And those others become forgotten. What good is it if everything we know will fade? Great deeds or great tragedies, neither means anything! They will become legends, then those legends will be forgotten, then it will all start over again!"
The access key began to glow in his hands. The clouds above seemed to grow darker.
Rand's anger beat in rhythm with his heart, demanding to be set free.
"What if he is right?" Rand bellowed. "What if it's better for this all to end? What if the Light was a lie all along, and this is all just a punishment? We live again and again, growing feeble, dying, trapped forever. We are to be tortured for all time!"
Power flooded into Rand like surging waves filling a new ocean. He came to life, glorying in saidin, not caring that the display must be brilliantly visible to men everywhere who could channel. He felt himself alight with the Power, like a sun to the world below.
"NONE OF THIS MATTERS!"
He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.
Then he drew in more.
He knew that much power would destroy him. He had stopped caring. Fury that had been building in him for years finally boiled free, unleashed at long last. He spread his arms out wide, access key in his hand. Lews Therin had been right to kill himself and create Dragonmount. Only he hadn't gone far enough.
Rand could remember that day. The smoke, the rumbling, the sharp pains of a Healing bringing him back to lucidity as he lay in a broken palace. But those pains had paled compared with the agony of realization. Agony from seeing the beautiful walls scarred and broken. From seeing the piles of familiar corpses, tossed to the floor like discarded rags.
From seeing Ilyena a short distance away, her golden hair spread out on the ground around her.
He could feel the palace around him shaking from the earth's own sobs. Or was that Dragonmount, throbbing from the immense power he had drawn into himself?
He could smell the air thick with blood and soot and death and pain. Or was that just the scent of a dying world, spread before him?
The winds began to whip at him, spinning, enormous clouds above twisting upon themselves, like ancient leviathans passing in the profoud black deep.
Lews Therin had made a mistake. He had died, but had left the world alive, wounded, limping forward. He'd let the Wheel of Time keep turning, rotating, rotting and bringing him back around again. He could not escape it. Not without ending everything.
"Why?" Rand whispered to the twisting winds around him. The Power coming to him through the access key was greater than he'd held when cleansing saidin. Perhaps greater than any man had ever held. Great enough to unravel the Pattern itself and bring final peace.
"Why do we have to do this again?" he whispered. "I have already failed. She is dead by my hand. Why must you make me live it again?"
Lightning cracked above, thunder buffeting him. Rand closed his eyes, perched above a drop that plummeted thousands of feet downward, in the middle of a tempest of icy wind. Through his eyelids, he could sense the blazing light of the access key. The Power he held inside dwarfed that light. He was the sun. He was fire. He was life and death.
Why? Why must they do this over and over? The world could give him no answers.
Rand raised his arms high, a conduit of power and energy. An incarnation of death and destruction. He would end it. End it all and let men rest, finally, from their suffering.This is the admitting, this is the reunion with LTT, isn't it? He not only does face the most traumatizing memories, he also thinks the most traumatizing thoughts these memories cased and still cause. He doesn't hush anything, he doesn't suppress anything, there is nothing else to push away. Even more - he is ready to continue LTT's work as Rand, to do more in the same line. Complete reintegration, eh?

But what happens next? What happens just after this final admittance? The opening of the eyes? No, still not. The voice of LTT is what happens. The same voice that should be made unneeded by all the previous crisis:
Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.
Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?
Maybe . . . Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be . . . Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.
Rand froze. The winds blew against him, but he could not be moved by them. The Power hesitated inside him, like the headsman's axe, held quivering above the criminal's neck. You may not have a choice about which duties are given you, Tam's voice, just a memory, said in his mind. But you can choose why you fulfill them.
Why, Rand? Why do you go to battle? What is the point?
Why?
All was still. Even with the tempest, the winds, the crashes of thunder. All was still.
Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again,
That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.
Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. I will live again, then she might as well!
That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.
I want to do it right this time.Why does the voice reappear exactly at that time? According to the constructivism it shouldn't, it would be made unneeded. But no, it reappears, and it's even more distinctively LTT's than everything in Rand's last days before, when LTT sounds more and more like Rand, and when Rand begun to speak "we" in his voice. And it's the voice actually that gives the solution to Rand's problem, Rand himself only agrees thereafter. Why it's the voice here? How can constructivism explain that?

From a realer perspective it makes lot of sense though. LTT's voice as separate conscious entity had his own serious psychological problems, including own problems with suppressing things. He had to fight for his conclusions (the mercy of death) that nobody seems to understand, especially that crazy voice (Rand's) in his head. He had to fight for his conclusions he paid so an incredibly high prize for. And finally this other man in his head understood him. Finally he convenced Rand. Finally he made him see the "truth" he had seen thousands years ago. There's no need more to struggle with Rand. And so, finally, LTT can afford to ... think a little bit. Just to stop all that self-pity and think.

And so he sees the solution of the problem and he surrenders happily. From LTT's part it's very similar to the way RJ described earlier the breaking of Nynaeve's wilder block (i.e. it's the way RJ thinks about this sort of psychological problems) - he submits and finds peace. He can stop struggling and let Rand take over him, just like Nynaeve finally was capable to let saidar take over. So Rand can in response agree with LTT and conquer the soul and fionally make the integartion. Not the re-integration, because there was no previous union between the personality "Rand" and anything else in the soul, but the first integration.

Once the integration in made however, it means that no previous life of Rands soul is foreign to Rand who grew up in Two Rivers, despite of them being different bodies living in a different ages. There is no more place where another consciousness could plant it's roots. The LTT's voice surrendered happily and let being integrated.

Terez
11-18-2009, 08:07 AM
I'll address this later, adbf. Huge presentation due today - don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. ;)

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 08:36 AM
I'll address this later, adbf. Huge presentation due today - don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. ;)No problems, Terez. I am definitely a slower poster than you, and I can wait. And waiting while feeling so self-satisfied by my last blow doesn't hurt actually ;)

Terez
11-18-2009, 08:41 AM
lol...let me burst your bubble then, and say that your 'blow' rests on a few misconceptions about construct theory. ;)

DahLliA
11-18-2009, 11:11 AM
this discussion makes my head hurt

Bonzi77
11-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Further about the crisis at Dragonmount, that chapter 50: the very way the crisis and the admitting by Rand of the traumatizing memories is speaking directly against the constructivist theory in Terez' variant, the way I understand Terez' main point.

Do I undestand right, that according to Constructivism teh reason for the Voice is Rand's unabiliyt to admit some LTT memories, most importantly the killing of Ilyena, Rand's unability to think about it, his attempt to suppress these memories, to make them separate from himself? Do I undestand it right also, that according to constructivist theory (in Terez' version) if Rand finally admits that he did what LTT did, than there will be no more need of LTT Voice?

Well, in chapter 50 Rand finally admits all the traumatizing memories, and does it with much detail, leaving nothing ignored, drawing all the painful consequences, he deliberately embraces everything the constructivists said he supressed, and it was actually the very peak of his crisis, and it was not the end of LTT's voice.
This is the admitting, this is the reunion with LTT, isn't it? He not only does face the most traumatizing memories, he also thinks the most traumatizing thoughts these memories cased and still cause. He doesn't hush anything, he doesn't suppress anything, there is nothing else to push away. Even more - he is ready to continue LTT's work as Rand, to do more in the same line. Complete reintegration, eh?

But what happens next? What happens just after this final admittance? The opening of the eyes? No, still not. The voice of LTT is what happens. The same voice that should be made unneeded by all the previous crisis:
Why does the voice reappear exactly at that time? According to the constructivism it shouldn't, it would be made unneeded. But no, it reappears, and it's even more distinctively LTT's than everything in Rand's last days before, when LTT sounds more and more like Rand, and when Rand begun to speak "we" in his voice. And it's the voice actually that gives the solution to Rand's problem, Rand himself only agrees thereafter. Why it's the voice here? How can constructivism explain that?

From a realer perspective it makes lot of sense though. LTT's voice as separate conscious entity had his own serious psychological problems, including own problems with suppressing things. He had to fight for his conclusions (the mercy of death) that nobody seems to understand, especially that crazy voice (Rand's) in his head. He had to fight for his conclusions he paid so an incredibly high prize for. And finally this other man in his head understood him. Finally he convenced Rand. Finally he made him see the "truth" he had seen thousands years ago. There's no need more to struggle with Rand. And so, finally, LTT can afford to ... think a little bit. Just to stop all that self-pity and think.

And so he sees the solution of the problem and he surrenders happily. From LTT's part it's very similar to the way RJ described earlier the breaking of Nynaeve's wilder block (i.e. it's the way RJ thinks about this sort of psychological problems) - he submits and finds peace. He can stop struggling and let Rand take over him, just like Nynaeve finally was capable to let saidar take over. So Rand can in response agree with LTT and conquer the soul and fionally make the integartion. Not the re-integration, because there was no previous union between the personality "Rand" and anything else in the soul, but the first integration.

Once the integration in made however, it means that no previous life of Rands soul is foreign to Rand who grew up in Two Rivers, despite of them being different bodies living in a different ages. There is no more place where another consciousness could plant it's roots. The LTT's voice surrendered happily and let being integrated.

Actually, there's no more logical time for the voice to come back. It's a moment of extreme introspection on Rand's part. It's the final burst before he puts it all together and accepts all the memories and emotions as part of himself.

Matoyak
11-18-2009, 12:46 PM
this discussion makes my head hurtYou should join my faction...as soon as the factions are fixed and I can put it in... the faction will be "Apathy about LTT". Just sayin'. ;)

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 01:37 PM
Actually, there's no more logical time for the voice to come back. It's a moment of extreme introspection on Rand's part. It's the final burst before he puts it all together and accepts all the memories and emotions as part of himself.
I don't understand. You say a final burst before he puts all together and accepts all memories and emotions. But it's actually just after he accepts the memories and emotions and puts all together. There is no more traumatizing memory or emotion left he hadn't just embraced, most notably everything about Ilyena is already faced. After that he has to think thoughts he never tried before neither as Rand nor as LTT. But everything to be faced is already faced. So why the voice is needed? I mean why a construct-voice is needed? A real voice, yes, it's exactly the logical place for him, but a constructed one, created specifically to deal with not facing the memories already faced? Explain, please.

Bonzi77
11-18-2009, 02:17 PM
I don't understand. You say a final burst before he puts all together and accepts all memories and emotions. But it's actually just after he accepts the memories and emotions and puts all together. There is no more traumatizing memory or emotion left he hadn't just embraced, most notably everything about Ilyena is already faced. After that he has to think thoughts he never tried before neither as Rand nor as LTT. But everything to be faced is already faced. So why the voice is needed? I mean why a construct-voice is needed? A real voice, yes, it's exactly the logical place for him, but a constructed one, created specifically to deal with not facing the memories already faced? Explain, please.

I'll have to re-read it when I get home from work and get back to you. I might have to re-examine the exact order of his thought process.

Belazamon
11-18-2009, 05:58 PM
I don't understand. You say a final burst before he puts all together and accepts all memories and emotions. But it's actually just after he accepts the memories and emotions and puts all together. There is no more traumatizing memory or emotion left he hadn't just embraced, most notably everything about Ilyena is already faced. After that he has to think thoughts he never tried before neither as Rand nor as LTT. But everything to be faced is already faced. So why the voice is needed? I mean why a construct-voice is needed? A real voice, yes, it's exactly the logical place for him, but a constructed one, created specifically to deal with not facing the memories already faced? Explain, please.
I think you're making the unfounded assumption that there's some sort of mystical "divider" in play here - that on one side, LTT's voice must necessarily still exist, and on the other, it must necessarily vanish. I can see no convincing reason that things should be delineated so neatly.

And of course, as your quote points out, he hadn't quite hit his "final revelation" yet - if I was forced to pick a "dividing line," it would be the realization that Rand can "do it right this time."

DahLliA
11-19-2009, 12:14 PM
You should join my faction...as soon as the factions are fixed and I can put it in... the faction will be "Apathy about LTT". Just sayin'. ;)

I'll do that :p

Terez
11-19-2009, 03:20 PM
For Isa, from the comments on Leigh Butler's review (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58170#69730) (which I'm sure Isa probably already read and didn't bother to bring to our attention):

Oh...and I'm surprised Leigh thinks the truth of Rand/Lews Therin wasn't settled in this book.

Oh, *I* think it's totally settled. I was just giggling like mad because I knew how many fans would refuse to accept it.

It was the same thing with the Taimandred thing; even after Jordan said, flat out, in so many words, "Taim is not Demandred", there were *still* fans who wouldn't accept it. The Lews Therin thing will be no different. This I Foretell.

a dragonburned fool
11-20-2009, 02:35 AM
I think you're making the unfounded assumption that there's some sort of mystical "divider" in play here - that on one side, LTT's voice must necessarily still exist, and on the other, it must necessarily vanish. I can see no convincing reason that things should be delineated so neatly. :confused: I just don't see how a constructed LTT voice could still exist at this particular point. I admit it might be because I'm a complete diletant in matters of psychology and my philosophy background might make the situation even worse. Apparently you, also Terez and likely others see it otherwise, but I sincerely have no idea how could it be. I mean: until now the constructivist argument seems to be something like the following: LTT's voice is a way Rand's subconsciousness rationalizes a complex of suppressed memories and emotions. Once said complex is no more supressed, a reason for a LTT voice seems to vanish. "Necessarily" if you want to say so, in the measure I'm able to understand the theory at the moment. It doesn't matter what other Apparently you understand something more, Bela. I would appreciate an explanation.

And of course, as your quote points out, he hadn't quite hit his "final revelation" yet - if I was forced to pick a "dividing line," it would be the realization that Rand can "do it right this time."Yes, he still has a problem, and a huge problem indeed, before the "do it right this time". But it's a different problem, as I see it. It's no more a problem of suppressing memories or emotions. It's a problem of finding the "why", of finding of reason to life and to go in battle, etc. It's a problem that can mean the bitter end for the world as whole and bitter end for Rand specifically, but I cannot see a place for a particular constructed LTT voice at this particular moment (while I can see a place for a LTT voice interpreted by a realer theory). There are no suppresssed memories more. All LTT memories and emotions are faced without any flinching. He just doesn't draw good conclusions.

If any constructed voice should appear at this point, it would be rather an upgrade of the good old rand "voice" mentioned earlier in the books. Because even if this particular "Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance" voice is representing some emotions or stuff supressed at this moment, it would be a suppression in entirelly different direction compared to the trend of suppression assotiated with the LTT voice before the crisis.

If it's my missunderstanding that Construct theory states mainly that the reason for LTT's voice is suppressing of whatever, then I beg for explanation. Because as for now it looks like the Construct theory is about suppression. If not suppression, what then?

Belazamon
11-20-2009, 01:31 PM
So far as I can tell, the only difficulty is that you're trying to apply rigorous cause-and-effect logic to Rand's insanity/return-to-sanity. It's just not as straightforward as "do A, do B, C happens, D happens, do E, sanity!" The human mind simply isn't so cut'n'dry as all that - we've got pretty messy stuff happening in our brains, and Rand is far more messed up than most.

Does that help at all?

a dragonburned fool
11-21-2009, 03:09 AM
So far as I can tell, the only difficulty is that you're trying to apply rigorous cause-and-effect logic to Rand's insanity/return-to-sanity. It's just not as straightforward as "do A, do B, C happens, D happens, do E, sanity!" The human mind simply isn't so cut'n'dry as all that - we've got pretty messy stuff happening in our brains, and Rand is far more messed up than most.

Does that help at all?
Well, it helps. And I'll drop the "necessarily". It still doesn't make sense, but, to say it oversimplistic, it doesn't need to make sense, because both Rand and LTT are nuts. True, under circumstances anything could happen. And true, psychological problems are definitely not straightforward in their mechanism. So I agree, it is possible for a constructed LTT voice to happen at that very moment with that particular words. It's possible. But how likely? I mean, what should be the specific explanation for the "Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance" line, because the construct theory is convincing due to explaining the sense of every occurence of LTT voice.

So, I'm waiting for an explanation for this particular occurence. Until such explanation comes, I'll say that the realer explanation here is more likely on account of being the only explanation.

Belazamon
11-21-2009, 11:42 PM
I mean, what should be the specific explanation for the "Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance" line, because the construct theory is convincing due to explaining the sense of every occurence of LTT voice.
Honestly? I'll go with "because it gives the issue some very nice and heartfelt closure within the larger context of the story itself." In other words - for literary purposes. :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2009, 04:04 AM
Honestly? I'll go with "because it gives the issue some very nice and heartfelt closure within the larger context of the story itself." In other words - for literary purposes. :DWould RJ (or BS) do that, if the result is destroying the very thing the scene is supposed to do: settle the issue?

Belazamon
11-22-2009, 05:39 PM
Would RJ (or BS) do that, if the result is destroying the very thing the scene is supposed to do: settle the issue?
I thought we'd already been told that they won't settle the issue? ;)

Bryan Blaire
11-22-2009, 11:20 PM
I think it makes sense from all points of view:

The voice WAS real. It was a real voice Rand was hearing in his mind. Semi wasn't wrong on that front, and it is possible that she knows from other experiences that those voices DO often sound like "prior lives" because they get overlaid with the voice pattern from the memories.

The voice WAS a construct. Regardless of feeling on how it got there (product of Taint, product of self-induced construction, etc), it was "made" or "distorted" into LTT's voice.

Unified String Theory of Looney Voices.

:D

Terez
11-22-2009, 11:32 PM
Like I've said before, you can get lost in semantics on this debate, but the questions that actually define the debate have more to do with how the passages in question are interpreted, and in that case, the two views are mutually exclusive.

Sodas
11-23-2009, 01:35 PM
I thought we'd already been told that they won't settle the issue? ;)

But why not settle it in the books?

It's like saying RAFO, and then we read it, and we still don't find out.

Something is seriously messed up with leaving it completely open to interpretation, even in the books.

Belazamon
11-23-2009, 02:10 PM
Something is seriously messed up with leaving it completely open to interpretation, even in the books.
~shrug~ Can't argue for or against that sentiment, as I'm not the author.

Sukoto
11-23-2009, 07:55 PM
But why not settle it in the books?

It's like saying RAFO, and then we read it, and we still don't find out.

Something is seriously messed up with leaving it completely open to interpretation, even in the books.
RJ never intended to settle the issue definitively, but BS most definitely did settle it. It was pretty clear to me from the book signing notes that BS departed from RJ's plans on that point. I mean seriously! How could anyone still think it's open to interpretation?

Belazamon
11-23-2009, 11:26 PM
I mean seriously! How could anyone still think it's open to interpretation?
Hi, you must be new here. :D

Sodas
11-25-2009, 10:07 PM
RJ never intended to settle the issue definitively, but BS most definitely did settle it. It was pretty clear to me from the book signing notes that BS departed from RJ's plans on that point. I mean seriously! How could anyone still think it's open to interpretation?

I'm sorry, but could you clue me in as to which notes you are refering to? And what exactly do you mean BS settled it?