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Belazamon
10-27-2009, 09:32 PM
First off: good read. I definitely didn't feel like I was reading another author, though I must admit I don't really go looking for such things. There were definitely parts where it dragged, and honestly I thought a few of the "big moments" were kind of rushed and/or anticlimactic (Graendal, anyone?), but I guess them's the perils of knowing we're in the home stretch with a limited amount of pages to go, huh?

Now, into the nitty-gritty! Be warned - there's a ton of thoughts here, and several of them will probably end up with their own threads one of these days. But for now, I just want to get all this down.

The Big Stuff

A) As has been previously hashed-out/gloated-over/screamed-about, I thought the Rand/LTT stuff was pretty good, and gave us a lot to work with. I definitely foresee the topic becoming the Taimandred of this book, though.

B) Verin. It's funny how Felix could be so right and yet so incredibly wrong simultaneously. :D Anyway, there goes our fun little "how did Verin lie in tGH" argument...

C) Semirhage. Felt like this was one of the rushed bits, honestly. And I'm quite confused why Rand balefiring her (with TP) didn't seem to undo any of her actions - at the very least, Min shouldn't have been choked, I would think...

D) Graendal. Seriously? That's it? Lame.

E) Dreams. I was really happy to see both Rand and Perrin popping into trusty ol' Tel'aran'rhiod again.

F) Man, Rand was a pissy little biotch in this book, wasn't he? I'm damn glad he got better at the end. It was like I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix all over again.

G) The Tower attack. Except for the Tower-top infiltration scheme, WH got it exactly right. Glad to see all that taken care of, honestly.

The Details

1) Confirmation that Moridin expects to actually face Rand on "that last day." Wonder what that plan entails, honestly...

2) Confirmation that LTT didn't kill Asmo any more than Rand did. Ha! :D
[Rand] still didn't know where Asmodean had gone or why the weasel of a man had fled in the first place, but Rand did suspect that he had betrayed much about Rand's plans and activities.

Should have killed him. Should have killed them all. - p.55-6

3) Nice to see Cadsuane commenting on the lack of Power innovation in the series.

4) Moridin strengthens my belief in the Dark One's goals. :D
"The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days." - p.238

5) Mat has some great lines in his sections. "Saidaring" - hah! :D

6) Confirmation that Sheriam was black and Halima was the one punishing her.

7) Was the apparition Nynaeve witnessed outside Bandar Eban (the procession with the coffin) foreshadowing, rather than the dead?

8) I'm sure I'm missing a great many things. To Be Continued. ;)

Davian93
10-27-2009, 09:41 PM
A) As has been previously hashed-out/gloated-over/screamed-about, I thought the Rand/LTT stuff was pretty good, and gave us a lot to work with. I definitely foresee the topic becoming the Taimandred of this book, though.


Yeah, I will need several rereads to think about it. Bloody more confusing now than ever (Despite T's assertion that its closed now).

B) Verin. It's funny how Felix could be so right and yet so incredibly wrong simultaneously. Anyway, there goes our fun little "how did Verin lie in tGH" argument...


Verin, the ultimate Light Ajah Aes Sedai, everyone was right on her...and wrong. Too funny.

C) Semirhage. Felt like this was one of the rushed bits, honestly. And I'm quite confused why Rand balefiring her (with TP) didn't seem to undo any of her actions - at the very least, Min shouldn't have been choked, I would think...


Perhaps the out is that it was technically Rand that was hurting Min, not Semi or some crap like that. Though I wonder if she's truly 100% dead due to the TP usage.

D) Graendal. Seriously? That's it? Lame.

At least Sammael put up a fight...completely lame. Especially after she was built up in the Prologue again.

F) Man, Rand was a pissy little biotch in this book, wasn't he? I'm damn glad he got better at the end. It was like I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix all over again.

I was really hoping Tam would beyotch slap him but it didn't happen. I was half thinking he was gonna kill himself at the end and then be pulled out of TAR for the rest of the Series...oh well. The actual ending was pretty good regardless.

G) The Tower attack. Except for the Tower-top infiltration scheme, WH got it exactly right. Glad to see all that taken care of, honestly.

Yes, congrats to WH as he was completely and utterly correct other than some very minor details. He even nailed the "Egwene will rally the Novices" aspect IIRC. Whoever was arguing with him on that should give an apology as they completely tried to debunk his theory.


5) Mat has some great lines in his sections. "Saidaring" - hah!


I liked how he completely saw through Verin's act. That was a telling sign of how mature he is now.


6) Confirmation that Sheriam was black and Halima was the one punishing her.

I would have liked to know more about the "horrible crimes" that Sheriam admitted to before her execution. Oh well. The whole Purge was awesome...50 executions?!?


7) Was the apparition Nynaeve witnessed outside Bandar Eban (the procession with the coffin) foreshadowing, rather than the dead?


My first thought was "Bring out your Dead, Bring out your Dead..."

As to what it really was, I have no idea. There were plenty of little hints and clues that will come out with a couple rereads.

Ozymandias
10-27-2009, 09:57 PM
First off: good read. I definitely didn't feel like I was reading another author, though I must admit I don't really go looking for such things. There were definitely parts where it dragged, and honestly I thought a few of the "big moments" were kind of rushed and/or anticlimactic (Graendal, anyone?), but I guess them's the perils of knowing we're in the home stretch with a limited amount of pages to go, huh?

I'll save the first part for the end, but I completely agree on the Graendal bit. After all this time of watching her be one of the most successful Chosen, perhaps the ONLY successful Chosen, I thought that thread deserved a more elaborate tie-up.


C) Semirhage. Felt like this was one of the rushed bits, honestly. And I'm quite confused why Rand balefiring her (with TP) didn't seem to undo any of her actions - at the very least, Min shouldn't have been choked, I would think...


It was Rand doing the action though. The whole a'dam thing brings up lots of questions about intent and action, which I'm sure will be explored later, but in the end, its been made clear for a long time that damane are committing actions themselves with the guidance of their holders.

D) Graendal. Seriously? That's it? Lame.

For seriously.

E) Dreams. I was really happy to see both Rand and Perrin popping into trusty ol' Tel'aran'rhiod again.

I was pissed about Perrin's... kinda lame wolf dream. Rand's was sweet. My favorite line in the book is the one when he and Moridin / Elan Morin discuss his reasons for going to the Shadow.

F) Man, Rand was a pissy little biotch in this book, wasn't he? I'm damn glad he got better at the end. It was like I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix all over again.

This was one of the few places where I was truly disappointed we didn't have RJ with us. I felt that in this (as in most things actually), Sanderson was too direct. The way he showed Rand snap, at least for the bad, was too blunt and he reinforced it too many times by having every character point it out at least 15 different occasions.

But I thought the concept of his last boundary breaking was a good one. And how everyone had recognized both his innate goodness while he kept that boundary, and how they all immediately realized what idiots they were for not realizing just how far he'd gone when it finally snapped.


All that said, I do have to say something about Sanderson. I think he did an admirable job, especially given his stated intentions not to mimic RJ, and I know I shouldn't complain.

But I really couldn't help feeling like the story had been hijacked. So much of it was clearly his voice, his creation, his story, and not the one RJ has been crafting all these years. At times, I felt like he was writing this for a first time reader, with all the referencing, and not for the faithful. And that sounds greedy, but thats how RJ has done it, and I thought the time saved on not rehashing past events made the story less stale.

I suppose the problem is in writing with your own style while adapting to established characters. In contrast to Bela, I thought Mat's scenes, of all of them, were the most stiff. In fact, most of my frustration came through his storyline. He tried too hard to force the humor, the plot with the weird repeating townspeople was clearly a plot device RJ would never have used, and in dealing with Thom... well, when has Thom called Mat "lad" every other word? For some reason, that really bothered me.

I also thought the ending scene smacked too much of Rand still being out and out insane. Its like... bang, thats it, he's better? At least in an emotional sense?

On to the good stuff.

I've been waiting for the Rand / Tam reunion party since tSR. Thought it was appropriately done, too.

I actually thought the Semirhage thing was done perfectly. Short of having her escape, I can't see a better way to polish her off. She'd be proud to know she died breaking the Dragon Reborn. And the whole TP thing... huge curveball. Golf clap.

Perrin. Keeping him out of the story was well done. Thoroughly boring character.

Egwene's plot was clearly the highlight of the book. As much as I found Rand's storyline to be more compelling, and not just a continuation of the last book, I thought BS pulled of the whole Egwene plot perfectly.

Rand walking into the stedding to meet Ituralde. Another of my favorite scenes. I love it when those kinds of things happen.

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:01 PM
I gave Felix a rep for his Verin post the other day, and that's exactly what I said 'so right...but sooooo wrong'. hehe :D

I am curious to see how many people still deny that Lews Therin was a construct. I know Isa will deny it, but I wonder if she'll have any fellow Whitecloaks. Some others who have read the book have agreed with her, but maybe they'll see that they're wrong after they read my thread on it. Dav is being really weird about it - he's not the type I'd normally expect to deny clear proof.

Oh, and Dav - why do you think WH should get an apology? He's not the only one that was right about something. I've gotten bombarded on Lews Therin at least as much as he's gotten bombarded on the attack.

And I really think you need to read my post about Lews Therin again. There's pretty much zero wiggle room.

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 10:15 PM
I am curious to see how many people still deny that Lews Therin was a construct. I know Isa will deny it, but I wonder if she'll have any fellow Whitecloaks. Some others who have read the book have agreed with her, but maybe they'll see that they're wrong after they read my thread on it. Dav is being really weird about it - he's not the type I'd normally expect to deny clear proof.
I'm pondering assembling a monstrosity of quotes from tGS in this regard. I've got the page numbers all written down, it's just a matter of transcribing them and formatting them into a readable post.

Ozymandias
10-27-2009, 10:24 PM
I'm pondering assembling a monstrosity of quotes from tGS in this regard. I've got the page numbers all written down, it's just a matter of transcribing them and formatting them into a readable post.

I don't recall ever taking a side, but how does this disprove anything? I always though the support for the anti-Constructionists lay in the fact that Rand knew all this stuff he shouldn't have... and yet he does. How is that explained away?

I speak from ignorance of the debate. It just seems, from the outside of it all, that it is far more likely that Rand got rid of LTT when they simultaneously realized what it was that made them keep going. How else does one explain the memories?

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
I speak from ignorance of the debate. It just seems, from the outside of it all, that it is far more likely that Rand got rid of LTT when they simultaneously realized what it was that made them keep going. How else does one explain the memories?
RAFO. :D

Terez
10-27-2009, 10:31 PM
I always though the support for the anti-Constructionists lay in the fact that Rand knew all this stuff he shouldn't have... and yet he does. How is that explained away?
Easy - it's a straw man, and it always has been. The most annoying and persistent straw man of the debate, in fact. "But Rand can't draw, but Lews Therin can draw, so now Rand can draw. Lews Therin must be real!" It has nothing to do with what we were arguing.

I speak from ignorance of the debate. It just seems, from the outside of it all, that it is far more likely that Rand got rid of LTT when they simultaneously realized what it was that made them keep going.
I get the feeling you did not read my OP. So....what Bela said?

Belazamon
10-27-2009, 10:39 PM
I get the feeling you did not read my OP. So....what Bela said?
Actually I meant "you'll see once I assemble said mammoth post." ;)

Tamyrlin
10-27-2009, 10:40 PM
A) Rand/LTT - I need to go back and read it all again, but it is very solid proof for the Constructionists.

B) Verin. Beautiful. Tragic. You were working with/for them/for you. Finally. Can't wait - need to get confirmation from Brandon concerning Lanfear.

C) Semirhage. I thought this was one of the most tense scenes in the book. Did she die too quickly? I'd rather that...twelve books into the series, than to see Ishamael come back ONCE AGAIN to be killed.

D) Graendal. Loved it. I love that Rand didn't waste his time with this worthless character. As with Asmodean, her death was sudden, shockingly so, and all I could do was smile (that is, if she really truly died).

E) Dreams. Agreed, I'm really hoping we see Perrin go into T'A'R and somehow lead the spirits of dead wolves from T'A'R into Tarmon Gai'don...just a thought.

F) Man. Yeah, glad we will have Rand back. Still wish he would have killed Cadsuane.

G) The Tower attack. Finally.

The Details

1) I loved the Moridin/Rand scene - this will be a classic.

2) If only Graendal is truly dead, and the reveal of Asmodean's killer will be a Point of View...please please please.

5) Saidaring - hilarious. Laughed out loud.

Ozymandias
10-28-2009, 01:15 AM
Easy - it's a straw man, and it always has been. The most annoying and persistent straw man of the debate, in fact. "But Rand can't draw, but Lews Therin can draw, so now Rand can draw. Lews Therin must be real!" It has nothing to do with what we were arguing.


I really don't want to be drawn into something this contentious... but that seems like a pretty flimsy argument. I can learn to draw. I can't inherit another man's memories.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 01:21 AM
I really don't want to be drawn into something this contentious... but that seems like a pretty flimsy argument. I can learn to draw. I can't inherit another man's memories.
Sadly, Terez likes to oversimplify this particular argument, presumably out of frustration.

Anyway, the promised Monstrous Post is to be found in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68235#post68235). It's just the stuff from tGS, so if you want/need more background, I'll find you some more stuff.

Kingoftonga86
10-28-2009, 01:44 AM
G) The Tower attack. Except for the Tower-top infiltration scheme, WH got it exactly right. Glad to see all that taken care of, honestly.


Is it "taken care of" for the Seanchan vs. Aes Sedai, though? Egwene still has to be rescued by a Seanchan with a sword. And, according to Min's viewing, Carlinya will be taken captive and made property of the Seanchan Imperial family. I wonder if we've seen the last of this...

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 01:55 AM
Is it "taken care of" for the Seanchan vs. Aes Sedai, though? Egwene still has to be rescued by a Seanchan with a sword. And, according to Min's viewing, Carlinya will be taken captive and made property of the Seanchan Imperial family. I wonder if we've seen the last of this...
You're more or less correct, though I'd be surprised if we see much more of this before Tarmon Gai'don, to be honest. I was more referring to the fact that we've been waiting for the assault on the Tower for what feels like Ages. ;)

Neilbert
10-28-2009, 02:58 AM
Yes, congrats to WH as he was completely and utterly correct other than some very minor details.

It was Sodas who disagreed, and only Sodas.

D) Graendal. Loved it. I love that Rand didn't waste his time with this worthless character. As with Asmodean, her death was sudden, shockingly so, and all I could do was smile (that is, if she really truly died).

I agree completely. TacNuke with a Sa'angreal was a beautiful move. The Compulsion to know she's dead trick was another plus.

5) Saidaring - hilarious. Laughed out loud.

Mat seemed forced to me. He's the character that struck me as the most different.

F) Man. Yeah, glad we will have Rand back. Still wish he would have killed Cadsuane.

Tam V Cadsuane was a highlight.

bowlwoman
10-28-2009, 12:18 PM
First off: good read. I definitely didn't feel like I was reading another author, though I must admit I don't really go looking for such things.

There were a few scenes that I could really tell the difference (namely Mat), but for the most part I thought it was pretty seamless.

B) Verin. It's funny how Felix could be so right and yet so incredibly wrong simultaneously. :D Anyway, there goes our fun little "how did Verin lie in tGH" argument...

I was so bummed that I got spoiled for the Verin reveal, but it was still an excellent scene that just kept on giving. Verin, the ultimate double agent. And who saw Tomas as a DF? Classic.

D) Graendal. Seriously? That's it? Lame.

QFT. I honestly hope that rumors of her death are greatly exaggerated and she'll pop up in at the LB.

F) Man, Rand was a pissy little biotch in this book, wasn't he? I'm damn glad he got better at the end. It was like I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix all over again.

I kept thinking this over and over during the Rand parts. Cranky little bastard Rand was.

G) The Tower attack. Except for the Tower-top infiltration scheme, WH got it exactly right. Glad to see all that taken care of, honestly.

I think there will still be some clean up scenes in ToM, especially if Mat meets back up with Tuon (oh, I'm sorry, I mean Fortuona...eh?). I wonder if Mat will recognize some of the newly collared AS and demand their release. I still want to see Tuon channel, if nothing else just to see the look of horror and disgust on her face. I wonder if she'll do it during her next truce meeting with Rand, in order to try to get him to kneel to the Crystal Throne. That might be the action that "binds the DotNM" to him, unless that part of the prophecy was already fulfilled by Tuon marrying Mat, since Fortuona isn't DotNM anymore.

3) Nice to see Cadsuane commenting on the lack of Power innovation in the series.

No kidding. Other than Nyn healing stilling, all of the other "discoveries" are either retreads or rediscoveries of lost weaves. While it's important to gain the knowledge that was lost, the next step in innovation is to see if burning out can the healed like stilling was. Setalle Anan comes to mind for a perfect candidate. If burning out can be healed, then people would probably feel more comfortable experimenting without worrying about their access to the OP being cut off.


5) Mat has some great lines in his sections. "Saidaring" - hah! :D

Yeah, on one hand it was pretty funny, but OTOH it felt really forced. My image of Mat wouldn't have him saying something like that, but YMMV. Humor is one of the hardest things to write, especially trying to match up your writing with someone's already established style.

6) Confirmation that Sheriam was black and Halima was the one punishing her.

So, Sheriam was black and blue all along. :D

Oh, and Sheriam wins the prize for "lamest reason to join the Black Ajah" award. Political gain??? For someone who was only in it for the power, she was a pretty pathetic figure.

7) Was the apparition Nynaeve witnessed outside Bandar Eban (the procession with the coffin) foreshadowing, rather than the dead?

Eh? Me no understandy.


I had a few nitpicky things about the continuity of this book, or maybe it was more the pacing. I dunno. Anyway, it bugged a bit when Rand had visions of Perrin with Galad and Mat in Camelyn, when we haven't seen those scenes on screen yet. Not to mention, Rand sees Mat in Camelyn, THEN we see Mat meeting with Verin before she Travels him there, then Rand sees Mat still in Camelyn. Then, Tam drops the bombshell to Rand that Morgase is with Perrin, but no one's seen that reveal yet. I understand that splitting the book make it a bit interesting to keep all the plot threads in sync, but really, that bugged me a bit.

Also bugging me (probably related to the book splitting) was Sulin showing up out of nowhere in Arad Doman even though she was last seen with Perrin in Malden.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 12:21 PM
Also bugging me (probably related to the book splitting) was Sulin showing up out of nowhere in Arad Doman even though she was last seen with Perrin in Malden.

I almost wonder if that was a mistake on BS's part.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 04:06 PM
It was Sodas who disagreed, and only Sodas.
Apparently you've forgotten our friend Greatwolf. ;)

Davian93
10-28-2009, 06:38 PM
Apparently you've forgotten our friend Greatwolf. ;)

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of.

the silent speaker
10-28-2009, 07:52 PM
I don't think Rand was whiny. Fanatical, creepy as six kinds of swear, but not so much whiny as the opposite of that.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 08:31 PM
I don't think Rand was whiny. Fanatical, creepy as six kinds of swear, but not so much whiny as the opposite of that.
Yeah, "whiny" was the wrong word. But I stand by my Potter comparison. ;)

4Alethinos
10-31-2009, 01:32 PM
Boy, are some of you people picky. I thought that BS did an amazing job. I considered his continuity of characters was amazingly good considering that they had not been a part of his thinking for over 15 years.

I was just thrilled to read the book and see the plot get further down the road.

Why are people fussing about how Graendal was destroyed? I cannot understand it! Nuking her with enough balefire to drive her acts in the pattern back a considerable time and then test to see if the compulsion was gone was absolutely brilliant. Yes, Tam, she is dead, dead, dead.

I was surprised about the way that Moridin interfered with Semirhaghe's little torture scene with Rand. That was completely understandable to me. Moridin had already shown that he was in pain from the loss of Rand's hand. He was obviously in pain from the torture being imposed by Semi. He interfered because of his pain and because Semi was disobeying his strict orders.

Yes, being balefired by TP does exactly the same thing that being balefired by the OP does. However, all it would do is remove the pain and bruises from Min's neck at most. It would not change the memories of either of them. Also notice that the balefire stream did not vaporize the wall behind her or Elza. This suggests that the amount of time removed in the Pattern was very brief by comparison to that of Rahvin or Graendal.

I am inclined to agree with Belazamon that we do not have a well constructed version of the construct theory. A theory that I agree with in spirit if not all of the details of definition.

"Be happy. Tomorrow we die." :eek:

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 02:11 PM
Why are people fussing about how Graendal was destroyed? I cannot understand it! Nuking her with enough balefire to drive her acts in the pattern back a considerable time and then test to see if the compulsion was gone was absolutely brilliant. Yes, Tam, she is dead, dead, dead.
One word. Anticlimax.

I was surprised about the way that Moridin interfered with Semirhaghe's little torture scene with Rand. That was completely understandable to me. Moridin had already shown that he was in pain from the loss of Rand's hand. He was obviously in pain from the torture being imposed by Semi. He interfered because of his pain and because Semi was disobeying his strict orders.
I'm still not convinced that was Moridin interfering, at least not directly.

Yes, being balefired by TP does exactly the same thing that being balefired by the OP does. However, all it would do is remove the pain and bruises from Min's neck at most. It would not change the memories of either of them. Also notice that the balefire stream did not vaporize the wall behind her or Elza. This suggests that the amount of time removed in the Pattern was very brief by comparison to that of Rahvin or Graendal.
Yeah, but my whole point was that the bruises did not fade. In fact:"What are you saying, Rand?" Min asked. She rubbed her neck again. Bruises were beginning to show.At the very least, I would expect those bruises to be gone/nonexistant, not just starting to appear. It could easily be a BS slip-up, I'm not denying that - it's just a little odd.

Enigma
10-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Personally I think that Graendal's death was done reasonably well. When she first started her plot with Sammael she though she was a lot smarter that him and maybe she was but she was being over complicated and he just flat out lied to her in a convincing way and trapped her into being his allie.

Flash forward a few books and Grandal is being over complicated again. She probably thinks she is mentally a lot sharper that Rand/LTT but she underestimated the simple approach.

It might have been nice to have a pov from her after Rand's messanger was compelled showing what she was planning to do etc only to have the fort nuked. I think that when he was asked about how Sammael died he made a point of saying that the forsaken were not deserving of dramatic death's.

Terez
10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 01:05 AM
Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.
Eh. I can see that too, it still just seems a little too directly caused by Semi. If BS said that was the reason, I'd be okay with it, I suppose. ~shrug~

It may very well be another example of how anti-intuitive balefire can be, or it may be a screw-up. It was just something that I found odd enough to jerk me out of the moment and question it - and usually I don't do that with odd BF effects.

Tree Brother
11-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.

I a wondering about this. There was a part where balefire removing actions was mentioned later in the book, and Min moves her hand to her throat, reminded of the bruises (hint that things are not right?). So, was Semirhage balefired or not? I am not so sure about the indirect actions here. If Rand was not collared...

Also, in order not to be resurrected, he would need to balefire Semirhage back a bit in time.

But the AS with Warders were still tied up, and ones without remained dead (I think... I will need to reread that part). The balefire did not reverse their actions. Noone outside the room mentions any actions being reversed, or feeling that the pattern was changed.

Maybe the DO's balefire works differently. Maybe the DO can choose how far to burn, rather than it being related to the intensity.

(Assuming now that no mistakes were made in writing this scene).

The Mat parts were the least RJ. Mat overshadowed Thom to much. Thom was a wimp.

Marie Curie 7
11-01-2009, 04:41 PM
But the AS with Warders were still tied up, and ones without remained dead (I think... I will need to reread that part). The balefire did not reverse their actions. Noone outside the room mentions any actions being reversed, or feeling that the pattern was changed.


The sisters that were affected were the ones maintaining Semirhage's shield outside her room. Only one (Daigian) was actually dead - the other two were in trances. That was presumably all carried out by Shaidar Haran because they were like that when Semirhage exited her room after her release and found Elza kneeling there. Thus, since they were dealt with by Shaidar Haran, anything done to them wouldn't have been affected by the balefire.

Tree Brother
11-01-2009, 06:19 PM
Thus, since they were dealt with by Shaidar Haran, anything done to them wouldn't have been affected by the balefire.
I need a re-read already :) I assume Shaidar Haran nullified the traps and gave Elza the bracelets as well. It just seemed strange to me that they were balefired, but nothing noticeable was reversed.

the silent speaker
11-01-2009, 10:00 PM
I've been thinking about the Graendal thing. She put Compulsion on Rama-whatever, so she was there. The only way for her not to be dead is if she Traveled out before he returned to Rand so as not to be there when the balefire hit. If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.

Doable, if she suspected by his emissary's presence that Rand was going to fricassee her imminently... but what then? Her Compulsion disappeared, so the complex was balefired to before she put it on. Which means that it was balefired to before she Traveled away. Which means that she can't have Traveled! The weave she did would have retroactively not worked, because she didn't know the area she was Traveling from anymore. She would have been on the third floor or whatever when Rand turned the place into a crater. Result: splat. Or if not splat, Graendal is at least still on the premises for the tag end of the balefire bomb. Graendal is dead anyway.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 10:04 PM
I've been thinking about the Graendal thing. She put Compulsion on Rama-whatever, so she was there. The only way for her not to be dead is if she Traveled out before he returned to Rand so as not to be there when the balefire hit. If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.
Heh. You've fallen into the "overanalysing balefire" trap. ;)

I think the only way Graendal can still be alive is if she had someone else put the Compulsion on Ramshalan. The odds of that are an exercise for the reader.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 10:15 PM
... If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.



I agreewith Belazamon that you'reover analyzing, but felt I should point out that the complex does not have a thread to be burned out of the pattern because it is not alive.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:39 PM
6) Confirmation that Sheriam was black and Halima was the one punishing her.


So, Sheriam was black and blue all along.

Oh, and Sheriam wins the prize for "lamest reason to join the Black Ajah" award. Political gain??? For someone who was only in it for the power, she was a pretty pathetic figure.

I thought it was interesting. There must have been loads of people who became Darkfriends for frivilous reasons. Without the Dark One or the Forsaken it must have been much like joining a naughty secret society, bad certainly, but not altogether terrifying. Sheriam just joined at the wrong time!

nameless
11-06-2009, 03:07 AM
Eh. I can see that too, it still just seems a little too directly caused by Semi. If BS said that was the reason, I'd be okay with it, I suppose. ~shrug~

It may very well be another example of how anti-intuitive balefire can be, or it may be a screw-up. It was just something that I found odd enough to jerk me out of the moment and question it - and usually I don't do that with odd BF effects.

It's not a screw-up. Balefire removes things the target did, not things the target caused other people to do. Think back to when Rahvin got burnt out of the pattern. Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean were brought back from the grave, but Rand still had dozens of piranha bites, because erasing Rahvin's actions had no effect on the dream piranhas that came out of Rahvin's mind.

Terez
11-06-2009, 03:37 AM
Actually, RJ said that had to do with properties of Tel'aran'rhiod, not indirect actions. Check the interview database.