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View Full Version : A Few Theories (Spoilers)


Xarra
10-28-2009, 07:29 AM
Yeah, I've posted these elsewhere on another forum, but I thought I'd collect them here as this is where Grand Theories seem to come into play...

1) Why is it assumed that TP comes from the DO? Couldn't it be a power that the DO has made his own by misdirection & belief?

2) One thing that struck me this morning about Tuon (Ch 35) was that the Pattern/Ta'vernen seemed to be forcing her to answer - however that wouldn't have fit the 'kneeling to the Crystal Throne' as Tuon is still the DNM through the meeting... So:

If Tuon had said 'yes' would Rand have 'knelt' fulfilling prophecy?
Did Tuon HAVE to say 'no' to enable Rand to kneel later?
Has Tuon just ripped a big hole in the prophecies?
Has Tuon just proved the Seanchan prophecies have been altered by defying them?

3) I wonder if Callandor's circle-of-three could be at all like the male a'dam - i.e. the women get control and the man's just a conduit? And how will Rand cope with that after the male a'dam?

4) Rand taught Narishma balefire, right? Narishma took Callandor after Rand. He who draws Callendor shall 'follow after' - have we not yet seen the significance?

5) 'to live, you must die' - we know Balefire destroys the pattern, could Rand die at Moridin/someone's hands, then someone (Logain's glory?) balefires whoever kills Moridin? I'm wondering if we're being too over-complex with theories of merging...

Logic:

We've seen foreshadowing with Sammael killing Matt/Avi/etc and balefire restoring them.
We know Rand understands that Balefire removes the effects.
We know it counts as a 'death' (Matt's prophecy of to live and die and live again)

Therefore, if Rand orders balefire as he dies, he'll die (blood on Dragonmount) and then live again... Yes, it leaves Rand without a hand - but he's got 3 women... Tongue

6) Twice to live and twice to die - he'll 'die' one on DM, and then die in his old age (I hope) The other option is twice to live (as LTT and Rand) and twice to die (as LTT and Rand) - we may have overcomplicated that one?

7) One thing I find very sad is that the oath rod WOULD have released Verin - it worked on Talene. :( Although I'm surprised she didn't try sooner in those 70 years... Can the BA tell if someone's unsworn the BA oaths & resworn the 3O?

Davian93
10-28-2009, 10:38 AM
1) Why is it assumed that TP comes from the DO? Couldn't it be a power that the DO has made his own by misdirection & belief?

Well, a couple reasons. One, all the Chosen that use it know it is the DO's power per their POVs. Secondly, RJ has confirmed it several times in interviews. Its not really an arguable point.

2) One thing that struck me this morning about Tuon (Ch 35) was that the Pattern/Ta'vernen seemed to be forcing her to answer - however that wouldn't have fit the 'kneeling to the Crystal Throne' as Tuon is still the DNM through the meeting... So:

If Tuon had said 'yes' would Rand have 'knelt' fulfilling prophecy?
Did Tuon HAVE to say 'no' to enable Rand to kneel later?
Has Tuon just ripped a big hole in the prophecies?
Has Tuon just proved the Seanchan prophecies have been altered by defying them?

First, the actual KC prophecy state that Rand will 'Bind the Nine Moons to Serve Him'. The Kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a corruption of the prophecy that Ishy purposely put in there while he was Hawkwing's advisor. Second, that first meeting means nothing. Rand and Tuon will likely meet again, especially now that Egwene ripped the Seanchan raiders a new one when she alone inflicted 30+% casualties on them.

3) I wonder if Callandor's circle-of-three could be at all like the male a'dam - i.e. the women get control and the man's just a conduit? And how will Rand cope with that after the male a'dam?

Its a possibility. Rand would cope fine if the 2 are Elayne and Avi, or if Nynaeve and Avi are used. There are female channelers he trusts...Moraine, Avi, Nynaeve, Elayne all come to mind. Now that he's learned laughter and tears, things will be much better in that regard.

4) Rand taught Narishma balefire, right? Narishma took Callandor after Rand. He who draws Callendor shall 'follow after' - have we not yet seen the significance?

Maybe not...probably not. Narishma seems like he will have an important part to play. Speaking of which, Where the hell is Logain???

5) 'to live, you must die' - we know Balefire destroys the pattern, could Rand die at Moridin/someone's hands, then someone (Logain's glory?) balefires whoever kills Moridin? I'm wondering if we're being too over-complex with theories of merging...

Its possible. I know its been kicked around before as a possibility.

6) Twice to live and twice to die - he'll 'die' one on DM, and then die in his old age (I hope) The other option is twice to live (as LTT and Rand) and twice to die (as LTT and Rand) - we may have overcomplicated that one?

As a strong supporter (and founder of the Faction) that states Rand will Survive the Last Battle...I like this option. As long as it doesnt involve a boat and elves.

7) One thing I find very sad is that the oath rod WOULD have released Verin - it worked on Talene. Although I'm surprised she didn't try sooner in those 70 years... Can the BA tell if someone's unsworn the BA oaths & resworn the 3O?

Yeah, that was very sad but Verin's character had served its purpose at that point. Besides, she was still Black Ajah and she would have had to be prosecuted regardless as I am sure she committed some heinous crimes along the way while serving the greater good. It made her sacrifice that much better. I get the implication that Verin very well could have been in the Black Ajah leadership (up there with Galina, Alviarin, Sheriam) as that would have helped her gather the info she had. Add in her length of time as a member of the BA (70+years) and its very possible.


Oh, and Welcome to Theoryland!

Ieyasu
10-28-2009, 11:28 AM
6) Twice to live and twice to die - he'll 'die' one on DM, and then die in his old age (I hope) The other option is twice to live (as LTT and Rand) and twice to die (as LTT and Rand) - we may have overcomplicated that one?

This is a common misconception. This prophecy says nothing about living twice or dying twice, it says he will be marked twice to live and marked twice to die.
one life
one death
four marks (herons x2 dragons x2)

bowlwoman
10-28-2009, 11:31 AM
Yeah, that was very sad but Verin's character had served its purpose at that point. Besides, she was still Black Ajah and she would have had to be prosecuted regardless as I am sure she committed some heinous crimes along the way while serving the greater good. It made her sacrifice that much better. I get the implication that Verin very well could have been in the Black Ajah leadership (up there with Galina, Alviarin, Sheriam) as that would have helped her gather the info she had. Add in her length of time as a member of the BA (70+years) and its very possible.


So, Verin = Snape, only more undercover? Are Eggy and Gawyn going to name their second daughter Verin Moiraine? :D

Terez
10-28-2009, 12:05 PM
First, the actual KC prophecy state that Rand will 'Bind the Nine Moons to Serve Him'. The Kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a corruption of the prophecy that Ishy purposely put in there while he was Hawkwing's advisor.
That's not proven, actually. It's just a popular theory. Rand might well end up kneeling to the Crystal Throne. I could see Moridin using it, actually. But it might actually be Tuon.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 12:55 PM
That's not proven, actually. It's just a popular theory. Rand might well end up kneeling to the Crystal Throne. I could see Moridin using it, actually. But it might actually be Tuon.

Its pretty strongly hinted. There is a good amount of circumstantial evidence to back it up...including that Dark Prophecy on the walls of the dungeon in Fal Dara.

Terez
10-28-2009, 01:41 PM
You mean the prophecy that has turned out to be mostly true? We have seen different things in Seanchan prophecies that are definitely true, so I don't think that there is really any evidence that they're corrupted.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 01:47 PM
You mean, other than the fact that the Seanchan all comment how the Randland Proper prophecies are corrupted and there is no mention of the Kneeling part in them?

Terez
10-28-2009, 01:52 PM
How would that be evidence of corruption? We know that there are several Seanchan prophecies that the Randlanders don't have, and we know that they are true (for example, the one that mentions the wolf king).

Sarevok
10-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Well, being a corrupted version of millennia old prophecies doesn't preclude them from coming true. :)
Prophecies are tricky things.

Davian93
10-28-2009, 02:18 PM
How would that be evidence of corruption? We know that there are several Seanchan prophecies that the Randlanders don't have, and we know that they are true (for example, the one that mentions the wolf king).

Just because it hasn't been mentioned (i.e. 'the wolf-king' one) doesn't mean it isn't in the Randland version of them. The prophecies are quite extensive and we've only gotten snippets of them through the books.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 03:45 PM
1) Why is it assumed that TP comes from the DO? Couldn't it be a power that the DO has made his own by misdirection & belief?
I can't speak to the interviews as Dav does, but even ignoring that, we really wouldn't have any alternatives. All the Chosen believe it to be true, and the Dark One is the only one who can grant access to it, so even if it wasn't originally his, it is now. And there's no evidence that it ever wasn't, so we really wouldn't have anything to go on regardless.

Has Tuon just proved the Seanchan prophecies have been altered by defying them?
I don't think this particular conversation proved the Seanchan prophecies (Essanik Cycle! We have a name now!) wrong in any way. But I do believe that they have been corrupted, anyway.

5) 'to live, you must die' - we know Balefire destroys the pattern, could Rand die at Moridin/someone's hands, then someone (Logain's glory?) balefires whoever kills Moridin? I'm wondering if we're being too over-complex with theories of merging...
I'm actually quite surprised Terez didn't jump all over this one. I'd assume that her definition of "death" somehow precludes this possibility. ;)

Terez
10-28-2009, 05:06 PM
No, it doesn't. If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that I discussed Mat's death in relation to his Aelfinn prophecy.