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NargsBrood
10-28-2009, 06:17 PM
where was the faceless seanchan woman egwene dreamed about? was the woman in her dream symbolic of the seanchan in general and that because of them she was able to mend the tower as she has?

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 07:30 PM
Possibly foreshadowing a Last Battle alliance? Seems even harder to accomplish now, but I suppose anything is possible. We did just see Tylee Khirgan tell the DotNM to her face that she thought fighting the Westlanders was a bad idea - maybe there's a rift in the Seanchan still in the works.

WinespringBrother
10-28-2009, 09:32 PM
Fortuona did realize that the WT attack could blow up in her face though. Can't wait to see the fallout from that. And I'm sure we haven't seen the last of the former Amyrlin.

Belazamon
10-28-2009, 10:08 PM
And I'm sure we haven't seen the last of the former Amyrlin.
I hope not, actually. It finally occurred to me that Elaida's fate annoyed me mostly because it's pretty much exactly the same as Galina's in the previous book.

NargsBrood
10-29-2009, 12:37 AM
even in her demise she screws everything up by giving the secret of traveling to the seanchan. what an idiot! worst amyrlin in the history of the tower!

Davian93
10-29-2009, 06:55 AM
I wonder if Lieutenant General Yulan survived the assault. He will be a great scapegoat for Tuon if he did.

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 07:48 AM
I hope not, actually. It finally occurred to me that Elaida's fate annoyed me mostly because it's pretty much exactly the same as Galina's in the previous book.

Who knows? Maybe we haven't seen the last of Galina either. With Aviendha returning to the 3 fold land (its possible she will cross paths with them at Rhuidean since they are sending someone to be the new chief) and with dreamwalking/dreamtalking, she could stay in the loop with Egwene - she did take the dream ter'angreal before she left Caemlyn.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 01:59 PM
I wonder if Lieutenant General Yulan survived the assault. He will be a great scapegoat for Tuon if he did.

Why the hell would she need a scape goat? The raid was a success, they achieved all real goals and have Traveling now through Elaida and likely others.

The only disappointment I had was when Rand didn't go through with his "kill them all!" plan against the SC.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 02:01 PM
Why the hell would she need a scape goat? The raid was a success, they achieved all real goals and have Traveling now through Elaida and likely others.

The only disappointment I had was when Rand didn't go through with his "kill them all!" plan against the SC.

30-40% casualties is hardly a grand success. Not to mention she inadvertently united the White Tower back into a powerful political force in the same blow.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 02:58 PM
30-40% casualties is hardly a grand success. Not to mention she inadvertently united the White Tower back into a powerful political force in the same blow.

The former was expected, I got the impression from the reading (audiobook so a quote will be a laborious proposition) that they were anticipating heavy losses, and were willing to take them to gain Traveling and the Superweapon.

Your probably right that she'll need a scapegoat for no superweapon, but 30 birds is worth Traveling imo.

Sarevok
10-29-2009, 03:11 PM
The former was expected, I got the impression from the reading (audiobook so a quote will be a laborious proposition) that they were anticipating heavy losses, and were willing to take them to gain Traveling and the Superweapon.

I doubt they expected to lose 10 damane and 10 sul'dam, though...

creepybob
10-29-2009, 03:19 PM
I doubt they expected to lose 10 damane and 10 sul'dam, though...

they lost more...but they captured like 40 AS.

The biggest win for the SC, and biggest loss for everyone else, is Elaida's capture.

I was hoping she'd hurl herself off the bird.

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 03:37 PM
where was the faceless seanchan woman egwene dreamed about? was the woman in her dream symbolic of the seanchan in general and that because of them she was able to mend the tower as she has?

I think this dream was fulfilled. I am not confident that Egwene would have successfully reunited the tower without the Seanchan attack.

She definitely layed the ground work for ascending to the united Amyrlin seat with her capture and sowing her seeds of discontent, but I do not think the Ajah heads would ever have come to an agreement to oust Elaida and raise Egwene.

The dialogue in that dream was something to the effect of 'Take my hand and together we can make it to the top'

I had thought perhaps Shipless, or Tylee would be that female in that dream, and since Shipless accepted Tuon's punishment, I leaned more towards Tylee. Tylee's apparent discordant views with the consolidation to make ally's with the westlanders lead me to believe she might aid Egwene during the attack some how... But now, in hindsight of the attack, I think the dream woman was an embodiment of the entire Seanchan race. There were two seperate dreams, one that predicted the attack, and one that predicted Egwene would reach the top of the white tower with Seanchan aid.

The Seanchan helped Egwene to ascend to the pinnical of Aes Sedai power.. The true Amyrlin Seat. Together, she reached the top.

I do not believe this would have been possible without the attack.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 04:10 PM
The former was expected, I got the impression from the reading (audiobook so a quote will be a laborious proposition) that they were anticipating heavy losses, and were willing to take them to gain Traveling and the Superweapon.

Your probably right that she'll need a scapegoat for no superweapon, but 30 birds is worth Traveling imo.

Well it depends if they lost more than just what Egwene took out (she took out 30 by herself). Assume a minimum of 30 out of 80-100 and they lost 30-37.5% just from Egwene's counter-attack. We almost have to assume that the other sites of resistance took out at least a couple raken/to'raken even if they weren't as effective as Egwene's circle/sa'angreal. Personally I would guess their losses were closer to 50%...or about as good as the Light Brigade did...or Pickett.

Granted they will get Traveling as Elaida will likely break quickly despite her vaunted "toughness". She's no Semi.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 06:28 PM
The Seanchan helped Egwene to ascend to the pinnical of Aes Sedai power.. The true Amyrlin Seat. Together, she reached the top.

I do not believe this would have been possible without the attack.
That's actually a pretty interesting way to look at it. After all, the Seanchan woman's face was never clear but "the sword seemed as solid as the stone" - it would make perfect sense if she symbolized an attack rather than an individual.

I throw my support behind this interpretation. :)

Brita
10-30-2009, 12:00 AM
I find that playout/interpretation of her dream a little weak- I hope there is more to come with Egwene and Seanchen.

Also, GI thought the choice for Gawyn and his affect on Egwene's fate would be a little more....dramatic and pointed. Maybe there will be more to that as well.

Terez
10-30-2009, 01:31 AM
Fortuona...
I don't suppose we could call her 'Tuon' for short?

Davian93
10-30-2009, 08:02 AM
I don't suppose we could call her 'Tuon' for short?

Did anyone else briefly freak out when they read the chapter title "The Death of Tuon"?

I knew it wasn't that obvious but I still did a double take.

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 08:33 AM
yeah, it sounds about right as well. I still like the idea of Ameresu reborn being the Seanchan woman, but this also fits rather perfectly.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-30-2009, 08:43 AM
Tylee's apparent discordant views with the consolidation to make ally's with the westlanders lead me to believe she might aid Egwene during the attack some how...

I think this is all yet to unravel. The Seanchan cannot feel this attack was a complete success...yes they raided and took marath'damane away, and likely will learn more about weaves, BUT...the seeds are sown in Tuon (I am calling her that, pfffft on all of you) regarding having them as allies. She could change her views, who knows.

I believe either Tylee or Eaginin (Leilwin, whatever) will aid Egwene in some way LATER.

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 11:09 AM
something I just remembered re: Elaida, she has the Foretelling. I wonder what she'd think if Elaida has a few Foretellings around her...ones she doesn't particularly like.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 11:20 AM
something I just remembered re: Elaida, she has the Foretelling. I wonder what she'd think if Elaida has a few Foretellings around her...ones she doesn't particularly like.

Speaking of Elaida's Foretelling, I wonder if she still believes that she is the Amyrlin that will confront the Dragon?

EDIT: Even better, the next time Rand meets with Tuon (its gotta happen), Elaida could very well be one of the Damane present. I wonder what Rand's reaction would be to that?

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 11:21 AM
Speaking of Elaida's Foretelling, I wonder if she still believes that she is the Amyrlin that will confront the Dragon?

EDIT: Even better, the next time Rand meets with Tuon (its gotta happen), Elaida could very well be one of the Damane present. I wonder what Rand's reaction would be to that? she probably believes that it means that she'll escape and have her revenge...which might well allow her to hang on a while longer against their...methods.

As for the edit, it'd be good for him to just annihilate her on the spot and then for everyone to continue as if nothing happened.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 11:23 AM
she probably believes that it means that she'll escape and have her revenge...which might well allow her to hang on a while longer against their...methods.

As for the edit, it'd be good for him to just annihilate her on the spot and then for everyone to continue as if nothing happened.

Just balefire her mid-sentence and then ask Tuon to pass the mulled wine? Yeah, that would work for me.

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 02:26 PM
I'm down. Originally I just wanted her to disappear into obscurity, never to be remembered. Having a fate as cruel as becoming a damane is almost too good for her, as it means someone will be paying attention to her for a long time. I just want her to vanish into obscurity.

Kingoftonga86
10-30-2009, 02:52 PM
I think there will be more to come with the Seanchan with the sword. After all, in TDR Egwene had a dream of Rand confronting her, and in that dream Egwene was with a Seanchan woman.

Also, Min had a viewing of Carlinya with raven tattoos, which implies that she will be taken at some point in the future.