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Terez
10-29-2009, 12:09 AM
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 49 - Reading the Commentary

Min sighed and turned back to Commentary on the Dragon. That same phrase popped out at her again. He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one. What did it mean? Min goes on to say that the 'Commentary' states that this means Rand will combine three kingdoms. She questions that interpretation, and thinks it has something to do with a way that Rand needs to use Callandor. Cadsuane tells her she's right, and that is why Cadsuane investigated Callandor in the first place. She tells Min that it needs a circle of three, one man and two women, to be used.

I think that Cadsuane is wrong. Rand will use it in a circle of three - himself, Nynaeve, and Ilyena.

Elayne is Ilyena reborn (plenty of clues for this), and she will merge with Min and Aviendha, not on whim but presumably because it is necessary to win the Last Battle.

This explains the viewing about Aviendha's babies as well, I think. Perhaps Aviendha will also become pregnant with twins and the merge will cause her to have all four. This is similar to past theories - all of it is, really - but they were wacky theories before. Not any more, I don't think - especially because of this:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

I want to do it right this time. Will probably add some more details to this theory later, and maybe change a detail or two. I have a feeling there is a lot of evidence for this in the series, whether I've got it exactly right at the moment or not.

Oatman
10-29-2009, 04:07 AM
I remember reading something similar to this years and years ago. Something about Rands harem being fragmented soul of Ilyena. I also recall an RJ quote claiming this was not possible, though again, years ago so I could be wrong. Either way, I don't buy it. Especially when the Alivia is right there as the more obvious choice. Helping Rand die will be helping him get close enough to the DO to do what he needs to do.

Terez
10-29-2009, 05:16 AM
You're right on both counts. The split soul of Ilyena theory was sort of popular at one point, but RJ said that souls can't be split (in response to a question about the reflections of people in Mirror Worlds).

And this will be after Rand dies. That's obvious because of the visions of all three of them over his funeral bier (which is apparently going to be a boat, must have something to do with the Sea Folk custom of giving their dead to the water).

I'm not saying that they are the split soul of Ilyena - just that they will merge, Slayer-style, but happier because they like each other. Or, it could be some sort of metaphoric merging of them, but I have a tendency want to go for the Ilyena thing because she's so similar to Elayne that we might actually be happy with her as Rand's woman, and so that Lews Therin could have her back. lol...

Also, the three of them are obviously important to the climax of the book:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

...the 'blade' might possibly refer to Callandor.

And also, I wonder if this might possibly have something to do with the ending as well, rather than what Rand thought:

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

And maybe this one as well:

"And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides, when the right hand falters and the left hand strays, that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is, all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword, while the winds of the Shadow grow."

Speaking of Callandor....I need Callandor to put his brain to this one. I know I'm close to the truth here.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 06:50 AM
Why is Elayne Ilyena reborn? Because they both have blonde hair?

Other than that, you could just as easily say that Avi is Ilyena reborn or any other random person.

I don't buy it.

I think the 3 into 1 has something to do with the 3 ta'veren combining their effect and working as 1 at Shayol Ghul to warp the Pattern.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-29-2009, 09:03 AM
She tells Min that it needs a circle of three, one man and two women, to be used

Where does it say a man and two women? I didn't bring my book with me today, but I only recall Caddy saying THREE.

Callandor can only work in box. In a box. In a box. That was pretty repetitive in the book, though I am not sure where that came from...

Why couldn't Callandor work for three MEN within a "box"?

When I first read that section, my immediate assumption was Rand, Moridin, Logain. Then I discounted Moridin and replaced him with Taim. Then I discounted Taim and wondered, who might be the third male channeler?

Then, I thought this was a melding required of Rand, Perrin and Mat.

I don't know, I just don't see enough evidence of anything to show yet who/what this "three" is. If anything it ties back the Holy Trinity...Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Could it be a struggle between three to gain control, using Callandor? Using Balefire? Using the One Power? Blade of Light is pretty vague here as well. Father = DO, Father of Lies, Son=Moridin, Holy Ghost=Rand?

I think there are way too many questions unanswered yet. This will likely be a pivotal scene in defeating the DO, and I think whatever it is, it will be a shock.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 09:07 AM
I don't have the book with me at work but wasn't it more of "Callandor is just another box (i.e. trapping rand like all the other "boxes") and not "Callandor can only work in a box."

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 09:21 AM
Why couldn't Callandor work for three MEN within a "box"?

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you and this is irrelevant, but

In ch27 of TPoD,Cadsuane tells Rand "The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not A Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows"

Also, men can't link without women (IIRC), so wouldn't that preclude the possibility of it being three men using Callandor?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-29-2009, 09:32 AM
I did not recall that, thank you.

Cadsuane, however, is a bit like Moraine in her assumptions. The only "safe" way to use this...well, while trying to take out the DO, Rand likely won't be interested in safety.

Again, I am leaning towards it being a struggle for control, not necessarily a sharing of power.

Also, it says nothing of wielding Callandor specifically, nor Balefire, etc. A blade of light. Probably Callandor, maybe not though.

The part that holds me back is HE shall hold it and the three shall be one. Nothing at all says three people must hold, and share, the POWER.

Also interesting is the plural, hands.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 49 - Reading the Commentary

Min sighed and turned back to Commentary on the Dragon. That same phrase popped out at her again. He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one. What did it mean?

Mort
10-29-2009, 09:53 AM
I don't have the book with me at work but wasn't it more of "Callandor is just another box (i.e. trapping rand like all the other "boxes") and not "Callandor can only work in a box."

Yes. It's Rand who feels trapped and manipulated. The box metaphor is a pretty good one.

Speaking of words used frequently. Did anyone react to the word "tempest" much? I thought I saw it about eight times throughout the book. Often related to the power being a tempest etc etc, but also for other things. Seems like BS got hooked on the word :) Havent seen that discription being juset much in the other books, instead it's usually "torrent" that's being used :)

Davian93
10-29-2009, 10:01 AM
One that jumped out at me...Mat grabbed the "reigns" of his horse in Haverscap (or whatever it was called) instead of the "reins".

Minor whoopsy that spellcheck will miss and I guess the editors missed too.

Mort
10-29-2009, 10:16 AM
One that jumped out at me...Mat grabbed the "reigns" of his horse in Haverscap (or whatever it was called) instead of the "reins".

Minor whoopsy that spellcheck will miss and I guess the editors missed too.

Oh no! The book is ruined for me now! :D

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 10:20 AM
One that jumped out at me...Mat grabbed the "reigns" of his horse in Haverscap (or whatever it was called) instead of the "reins".

Minor whoopsy that spellcheck will miss and I guess the editors missed too.

There was a "where" instead of a "were" somewhere as well, an Egwene POV, I think. Pretty much made we want to stop reading.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 10:22 AM
Oh no! The book is ruined for me now! :D

I had to put the book down for a while...it was worse than the Red Wedding.

Mort
10-29-2009, 10:24 AM
I had to put the book down for a while...it was worse than the Red Wedding.

Red Wedding? I don't follow... what did I miss?

Davian93
10-29-2009, 10:33 AM
Red Wedding? I don't follow... what did I miss?

Its a GRRM reference.

ShadowbaneX
10-29-2009, 11:05 AM
well, it's suspected that Rand will die and somehow end up in Moridin's body, that would give him his hands back.

As for Min, Elayne and Aviendha merging, I think you're way off base here. Something you yourself quoted Terez, had in your sig block I believeAnd Rand opening his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew-somehow-that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

This could imply that he's accepted it, it could be that the voice will be externalized. There's a bunch of ways it could be interpreted. However, the KISS rules say that he's integrated the voice, realised that it was just the manifestation of his insanity and that what drove Lews Therin is no longer relevant. LTT ranting for Ilyena should now be gone, never to happen again.

Granted, some of the emotions might still be there, just integrated, but if we take this in the more positive light, LTT is gone and his rantings are as well. No idea how the madness still there might manifest, but there's no need for Ilyena to resurface, to return, as she isn't needed to satisfy Lews Therin because he's no longer around.

You think you might be close Terez, and while I'm all for loony theories I think in this case all you're near to a dead end.

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Its a GRRM reference.

Oh right, I thought it sounded familiar. Was that a particlarly bad scene? I can't remember, too long ago I read that particular book and scene. Somehow, I don't find GRRMs story to be as reread-worthy. So I usually don't do that kind of thing with his books, maybe just look up a few details on the net before a new book comes out.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Where does it say a man and two women? I didn't bring my book with me today, but I only recall Caddy saying THREE.

I'm fairly certain the in a circle of three the only possible dispersion of the genders is 1 man and 2 women. 2 men and 1 woman isn't possible and obviously 3 men isn't possible. I have no idea where this info comes from but occasionally I remember random facts that I've read. It's possible it came from the guide or a forsaken POV or something. I wish I had a quote because otherwise it's just a hunch. :(

Davian93
10-29-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm fairly certain the in a circle of three the only possible dispersion of the genders is 1 man and 2 women. 2 men and 1 woman isn't possible and obviously 3 men isn't possible. I have no idea where this info comes from but occasionally I remember random facts that I've read. It's possible it came from the guide or a forsaken POV or something. I wish I had a quote because otherwise it's just a hunch. :(

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Other gender mixes are possible in a link as well. The number of men in a circle is limited only be the fact that with the exceptions of the linking of one man and one woman or of two men and one woman ( and of course, of two men and two women), there must always be at least one more woman in the circle than the number of men. Thus, three men would need four women to be in a circle together, four men would need five women, and so on. There can also be smaller circles than thirteen, whether of women alone or of men and women.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 04:19 PM
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Other gender mixes are possible in a link as well. The number of men in a circle is limited only be the fact that with the exceptions of the linking of one man and one woman or of two men and one woman ( and of course, of two men and two women), there must always be at least one more woman in the circle than the number of men. Thus, three men would need four women to be in a circle together, four men would need five women, and so on. There can also be smaller circles than thirteen, whether of women alone or of men and women.

Damn. I guess not. Stupid exceptions! :o

4Alethinos
10-31-2009, 01:19 PM
Why is Elayne Ilyena reborn? Because they both have blonde hair?

Other than that, you could just as easily say that Avi is Ilyena reborn or any other random person.

I don't buy it.

I think the 3 into 1 has something to do with the 3 ta'veren combining their effect and working as 1 at Shayol Ghul to warp the Pattern.

While the quote in the prophecy seems in context to refer to Callandor and its usage, I do believe that you have something important here about why Mat and Perrin are crucial to victory as Min has stated a number of times. It is their combined ablility as Ta'Veren to warp the Pattern that is vital to restoring the Pattern and removing the Bore. The Seals that remain because they also prevent the Bore from being removed and the Pattern being restored as the moat to the DO's prison.

I also agree that Elayne as Ilyena reincarnated is just a guess. I rather like Aviendha, myself. However, Min is also a good candidate. No, No, No a thousand times no to the horrible idea of a Luc/Isam idea for Avi/Min/Elayne existence in one body. That is so hideous a thought that I cannot even contemplate it. YUK!!!!!!!

"The end draws near and fear grips the world. However, people seldom pay attention."

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 01:33 PM
The theory makes sense, but I need some clarification. How far along is Elayne in her pregnancy? That is the only real issue I forsee with this theory.

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:23 PM
My read of that passage led me to think of Rand linked with Avi and Elayne using Callandor. Can't think of anyone else he would trust to link with AND give control to...notwithstanding whatever changes come about in response to his epiphany on Dragonmount

Sodas
10-31-2009, 02:36 PM
I think that the three might be

Rand, Ishamael, and Alivia.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 02:38 PM
I think that the three might be

Rand, Ishamael, and Alivia.

Has to be one man, two women.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Has to be one man, two women.
if we're looking for a one man, two women link, why not Elayne, Aviendha & Rand?

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:59 PM
if we're looking for a one man, two women link, why not Elayne, Aviendha & Rand?

*ahem* Exactly :D

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 03:03 PM
if we're looking for a one man, two women link, why not Elayne, Aviendha & Rand?
Unless Elayne has her babies really early, she won't be in any shape for channeling.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm leaning now more toward a metaphorical merging of the three women. But I'm still pretty much convinced that it's the three women, because their importance is highlighted in Nicola's Foretelling and the Wise Ones' dream, where the future teeters on the edge of a blade.

I predict that Rand will need a single vein of gold, probably for them to be able to save him after Nynaeve rips him out (Birgitte almost died from that).

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm leaning now more toward a metaphorical merging of the three women. But I'm still pretty much convinced that it's the three women, because their importance is highlighted in Nicola's Foretelling and the Wise Ones' dream, where the future teeters on the edge of a blade.
Clearly they will merge into Ilyena. For they were not three women, and never had been.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:34 PM
hehe, now that I doubt, that they are somehow all Ilyena. Elayne, I can definitely see though.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 04:45 PM
Has to be one man, two women.

Hmm.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 05:18 PM
Has to be one man, two women.

Why? 2 Men and 1 Woman can link. Please reference my quote from the BWB earlier in the thread.

The Black Wind
10-31-2009, 06:33 PM
Why? 2 Men and 1 Woman can link. Please reference my quote from the BWB earlier in the thread.

They say this because Cadsuane said it was the only safe way to use Callandor. However, I'm not entirely convinced that Callandor's flaw is a disadvantage since it should allow the wielder to draw past the safe limit. They might need more power than they can safely handle.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 06:47 PM
They say this because Cadsuane said it was the only safe way to use Callandor. However, I'm not entirely convinced that Callandor's flaw is a disadvantage since it should allow the wielder to draw past the safe limit. They might need more power than they can safely handle.

Quote please?

Jokeslayer
10-31-2009, 07:20 PM
Quote please?

Assuming you mean for the 2 women 1 men part (actually the other part is sort of in the same place

TPOD ch. 27

"It is flawed," she [Cadsuane] replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

It's not quite air-tight (she could be wrong, there could be special emphasis on "you" meaning it's something about Rand that makes it unsafe and that may have changed etc.) but there it is. IIRC she also talks about it in TGS, but I obviously can't search that and I can't be bothered to hunt for it right now.

EDIT: for clarity

Davian93
10-31-2009, 07:48 PM
"safe" is one thing but Rand might have to ignore being "safe" and make a grand sacrifice.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 08:27 PM
I wasn't implying that you can't use Callandor without having a circle of two women, one man. Cadsuane has actually researched this subject, and has come to the conclusion that you need to have two women, one man to safely use Callandor.

Cadsuane doesn't lie.

If Rand possesses this knowledge (I think he does) I wouldn't think he would risk a repeat of his ... errors ... with everything at stake during the final showdown.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 01:26 AM
if we're looking for a one man, two women link, why not Elayne, Aviendha & Rand?

Linking wise, barring some other criteria, this seems the most obvious. Rand will trust those two above anyone else.

Few other possibles: Nynaeve, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Alivia, Egwene. Anyone else for those having a chance Rand might trust enough to make him basically a reservoir of power?

Crazy toss out idea: Rand, Cyndane, Moghedien, forcing them in control of the weaves by breaking their mindtraps. And how did he get those? Mu hahahaha! Mystery....

But the idea of Elayne and Min merging strikes me as ridiculous. The baby transfer is equally kooky. Ilyena theories always struck me as barely a grade above "Rand and Lews Therin are both alive, but existing in different temporal realms!"

My initial thought was of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, honestly. But initial ones aren't always the best.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 01:32 AM
I think Rand, Mat, Perrin will be the ones to seal the DO's prison. Something to do with ta'veren and nothing to do with the Power.

Rand musing about stopping Cadsuane's heart seemed to be a clue.

I'm probably wrong, but it's an entertaining possibility.

Anaiya Sedai
11-01-2009, 02:38 AM
I'm with Callandor on this one. Baby transfer? Crazy, and if Avi's and Elayne's babies are supposed to be born at the same time, it is quite likely that Avi's pair wouldn't survive, Healing or not.

I think it may be more about the three boys.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 07:52 AM
Linking wise, barring some other criteria, this seems the most obvious. Rand will trust those two above anyone else.

Few other possibles: Nynaeve, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Alivia, Egwene. Anyone else for those having a chance Rand might trust enough to make him basically a reservoir of power?

I wouldn't see Rand linking with Cadsuane or Egwene, Rand doesn't trust either of them. If there are two Aes Sedai he trusts it's Nynaeve and Moiraine and even then, because he has linked with Nynaeve and two Moiraine's dead. Alivia...I'm not sure about. I'd also say that one is possible.

As for Rand just looking at people and saying "if I willed it, do you think it would happen?" that's also possible and could be applied to willing the Bore sealed, possibly with Mat and Perrin to back him up. The thing is, Rand says that something has to touch. The obvious choice at this point would be Fain, but how does that work in conjunction with the three willing the Bore shut? Unless, like the wounds on Rand's side, Fain goes in, distracts the DO in some metaphysical evil duel and then while the DO's distracted they will it shut.

All that said, I'm not sure how good of an ending to the series that would be. Hummm, I wonder if Rand can be the touchy-feely one and that's how he dies, only to wake up in Moridin's body or something.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 10:01 AM
As for Rand just looking at people and saying "if I willed it, do you think it would happen?" that's also possible and could be applied to willing the Bore sealed, possibly with Mat and Perrin to back him up. The thing is, Rand says that something has to touch. The obvious choice at this point would be Fain, but how does that work in conjunction with the three willing the Bore shut? Unless, like the wounds on Rand's side, Fain goes in, distracts the DO in some metaphysical evil duel and then while the DO's distracted they will it shut.



See i'm not so sure we'll see this anymore. I took this as being completely evil and showing the reader just how dark Rand had become. This is what cemented the fact (for me) that the DO was taking over and all would be lost shortly if something wasn't done about it soon.

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 10:17 AM
I'm concerned that if they use the One Power, it will be a repeat of the Breaking. It would be exponentially worse if they use the female half, too, and they both get tainted.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 10:21 AM
what if it were an absolute though? What if Rand could take some finer control over his ta'verenness and sometimes what he actually wants can happen. In this book, it was for chaotic purposes, to stop hearts and the like. What if, as of the breaking point, or rather integration point, he can will order to happen?

Come to think of it, in tDR before the madness was becoming appearent, Moiraine, Perrin et al were following in the wake of marriages. In the middle books there were the miracles, children getting trampled, but barely having a stratch on them, but those were balanced by the madness, by stone tiles coming lose, flying through windows and killing people sitting at their tables. Now, in tGS we've seen the other extreme end, just bad happening, the grain, the accidents, etc.

With Rand reaching the limit, he's likely to swing back the other way and the miracles are likely to return, but if he's cured himself of the madness, perhaps the accidents will be gone, the chaos will be done, and he'll continue to institute order in his wake.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 11:21 AM
Why is Elayne Ilyena reborn? Because they both have blonde hair?

Other than that, you could just as easily say that Avi is Ilyena reborn or any other random person.

There are lots of very strong hints that Elayne is Ilyena reborn. One such hint is the anagrams of Elayne and Ilyena are eerily similar (Elyena, Elayne). Another hint is the hair. Yet another is the attraction between the Dragon [Reborn] and Ilyena [Elayne]. Another is that LTT tends to moan about Ilyena when Elayne is around or when Rand is thinking hard about Elayne.

I can probably think of some more, but it's been awhile since I've read the earlier books, so I'll refrain from throwing out anything else that may be inaccurate.

But as you can see, neither Min nor Aviendha fit the above criteria to quite the same capacity as Elayne.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 09:56 PM
"You are Lews Therin Telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I'd found you in your cradle."

Yeah, I don't by any of the physical simularities are being a reason for anyone being anyone reborn. Rand just happens to be the same height as LTT, and has the eyes, but that's about it, and could just be random. This means that just about all physical features could be different or suspect when it comes to someone being reborn.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:58 PM
Yeah, I don't by any of the physical simularities are being a reason for anyone being anyone reborn. Rand just happens to be the same height as LTT, and has the eyes, but that's about it, and could just be random. This means that just about all physical features could be different or suspect when it comes to someone being reborn.


Exactly. Just because they're both blondes means nothing.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:23 PM
Ilyena was also Aes Sedai, so we know she had a channeling soul.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 10:57 PM
ok so what you're saying is that any Aes Sedai, Wise One (that can channel), Wise Woman, damane, sul'dam, windfinder or any of the female channelers amongst the Sharans or on the Land of the Madmen might be Ilyena...if she's even reborn at the moment. That's, what? 5-10% of the planets population (assuming she has been reborn)? Yeah, I think I can accept that.

Edit: crap, she also could have been one of those that recently died too. That's a few hundred more suspects onto the list.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 11:17 PM
ok so what you're saying is that any Aes Sedai, Wise One (that can channel), Wise Woman, damane, sul'dam, windfinder or any of the female channelers amongst the Sharans or on the Land of the Madmen might be Ilyena...if she's even reborn at the moment. That's, what? 5-10% of the planets population (assuming she has been reborn)? Yeah, I think I can accept that.

Edit: crap, she also could have been one of those that recently died too. That's a few hundred more suspects onto the list.
That would be a reasonable position if the Pattern wasn't prone to spinning out Soul Mates in close proximity in time so that they can find each other.

Birgitte and Gaidal Cain aren't an isolated or unique case, they're just distinctive enough that their multi-incarnation love is noticeable.

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 11:47 PM
Another is that LTT tends to moan about Ilyena when Elayne is around or when Rand is thinking hard about Elayne.

LTT sometimes moans when Elayne is around, and sometimes doesn't. He does the same when Min and/or Aviendha are around as well.

He also moans when Taim is around as well :)

Bond hair and the ability to channel aren't enough to convince me at all, especially when we have 3 souls that make "perfect" matches to Rand.

That would be a reasonable position if the Pattern wasn't prone to spinning out Soul Mates in close proximity in time so that they can find each other.

Well, other than Birgette and Gaidal, it's basically impossible to prove that two individuals in love are/are not soul mates. Are Mat and Tuon soul mates? How about Bayle Domon and Eaginin? Or Thom and Moiraine?

Another reason I don't believe Elayne to be Ilyena--because I think RJ said the male lead's original love interest was supposed to be Nyneave. I'm having trouble finding the quote (even with the interview database).

I'd be willing to accept that Ilyena and Rand's current 3 loves represent a more symbollic, timeless love. Namely, that the Dragon's soul has to fall in love with someone to understand his true purpose. But I don't think the person or persons he falls in love with each time he's reborn is the same soul.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 07:16 AM
Another reason I don't believe Elayne to be Ilyena--because I think RJ said the male lead's original love interest was supposed to be Nyneave. I'm having trouble finding the quote (even with the interview database).

Well yeah, but Tam's character was originally meant to be the Dragon Reborn too. So I don't know if we can really use that.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 10:07 AM
Well, other than Birgette and Gaidal, it's basically impossible to prove that two individuals in love are/are not soul mates. Are Mat and Tuon soul mates? How about Bayle Domon and Eaginin? Or Thom and Moiraine?


Mat and Tuon are the subject of Prophecy, so predestined; I think that qualifies as "soul mates." They're also the only reason I didn't sat close in time and place.

Thom and Moiraine are likewise a predestined match, although Im not sure Min's viewings are "prophecy, precisely."

There's no foreknowledge of Bayle and Eaganin's match, but the relatively sudden attraction and marriage against custom and probaility are typical of "true love" or "finding a soulmate."

Perrin and Faile are another probable match of soul mates, because of their "Harlequin Romance Novel" courtship.