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NargsBrood
10-29-2009, 12:31 AM
so - we are safe to assume that the seanchan were able to acquire the secret of traveling due to capturing Elaida.

they will consider the raid a success due to this one point even in light of the heavy loss of raken/to'raken, at least 10 fully trained damane, dead sul'dam, possibly deaths of other damane(iirc it wasnt specified how many damane were killed).

Now - this enemy will be a LOT more difficult for rand to subdue as they've just gained so much more confidence in their quest for success.

Also, will rand go back to bandar eban for the people he left there to die given his re-discovered self? Or will he allow the seanchan to move in and lose rodel in the process?

Also, can we expect a full out assault on the tower itself now the seanchan can move their entire force inside the tower itself with in a mater of minutes via traveling?

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 12:49 AM
so - we are safe to assume that the seanchan were able to acquire the secret of traveling due to capturing Elaida.

All the weaves Beonin told Elaida, we can assume will be leaked to the Sul'dam in Ebou Dar. :mad:



they will consider the raid a success due to this one point even in light of the heavy loss of raken/to'raken, at least 10 fully trained damane, dead sul'dam, possibly deaths of other damane(iirc it wasnt specified how many damane were killed).

Nynaeve's five part healing weave, Tuon will love to learn I'm sure too. Elaida will be an information goldmine. If she passes the Traveling weave, which I think we will see in time, all of Tar Valon is at risk from the Seanchan Empire again in the future.


Now - this enemy will be a LOT more difficult for rand to subdue as they've just gained so much more confidence in their quest for success.

Yes, far more difficult. However will they learn how to link Damane together or not?

If Tuon was in-born with the ability to channel though, she's going to have a grave personal weakness which impacted her public face within the Empire itself. Tuon will need Mat's help to gain the Aes Sedai support politically and personally to survive learning how channel safely herself. None of the Seanchan could help her, except maybe those captured Aes Sedai sisters in Ebou Dar now. :D


Also, will rand go back to bandar eban for the people he left there to die given his re-discovered self? Or will he allow the seanchan to move in and lose rodel in the process?

I do think Rand will attempt to help the Domani again.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 12:56 AM
Yes, far more difficult. However will they learn how to link Damane together or not?

During the fight with the Seanchan Egwene noted that damane cannot link when they wear the a'dam. So no, the Damane will not learn to link. It isn't possible.

NargsBrood
10-29-2009, 01:12 AM
All the weaves Beonin told Elaida, we can assume will be leaked to the Sul'dam in Ebou Dar. :mad:


would someone be willing to compile a list of weaves that the seanchan will gain because of elaida?

greatwolf
10-29-2009, 07:07 AM
Insufficient data.

Someone suggested offing Egwene in KoD, and I think AS are fully capable of such an act if it preserves their interests. Elaida knew weaves like keeping before Beonin taught her new weaves. And the EVA are usually not interested in weaves not used in battle.

So we can only guess.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 02:18 PM
Also, can we expect a full out assault on the tower itself now the seanchan can move their entire force inside the tower itself with in a mater of minutes via traveling?

I think we can expect a full assault on the SC by somebody.

As for the SC assaulting Egwene, the raid was pretty much a success, though they'll still fear the superweapon which they did not capture. I really think that Egwene will move preemptively...or Rand will find out somehow.

When Rand finds out they have Traveling he'll see that he cannot afford to ignore them. He was hoping that the SC would be delayed while conquering, but now he'll have to bind them or kill them.

If Egwene doesn't beat him to it.

There is also the small, but real, possibility that Elaida is the only AS they captured who knows how to travel, and she might hold out long enough to be killed or freed.

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 03:32 PM
I don't recall... was it West and South, North and East?

I think Rand is going to allow the Seanchan to take Arad Domon, I got that impression from his thoughts about how the Seanchan brought order and kept people safe while he had failed.

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 03:53 PM
I dont see the problem with the Seanchan having access to the same weaves as the Aes Sedai have.

In the scene where Rand and Tuon met, Tuon was able to resist Rand's Taveren effect... why? was this because of her incredible will power? I dont think so. I think it was because the pattern wasnt yet ready for that alliance... I think if Rand were to try NOW, after that attack, the results would be different.

I question if any prophecies on both sides of the ocean were ever corrupted. I see room for both versions to be correct.
I believe Rand has already bound the Daughter of the Nine Moons to him when Mat married her, due to his loyalty and friendship with Rand.
Also, with her leaving her old name behind and ascending to the throne of the Empire, she is no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons, so he doesnt have the ability to bind her any longer, once she gave up that name and title. Perhaps he will bind her successor... assuming the next daughter of the Nine Moons isnt a hereditary title (not enough time for a child of the empress to be born and bound) but perhaps if she appoints some other member of the High Blood... then Rand potentially could bind THAT Daughter of the Nine Moons, but I think Mat's marriage was the actual binding.
I dont recall if the binding of the Daughter of the Nine Moons was an actual prophecy, or merely an answer provided by the finn's... terez can you paste the quotes?

I see the traveling and other weaves the Seanchan has now acquired as a potential way to gate in, capture Rand, and force him to kneel to the Empress.

So to me, there is room for both to come to pass, the binding and the bowing.

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 03:55 PM
It's not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, it's just the Nine Moons in the prophecy. As in, the Court of Nine Moons, the Seanchan Court.

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 04:07 PM
It's not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, it's just the Nine Moons in the prophecy. As in, the Court of Nine Moons, the Seanchan Court.

thanks. can you paste both the finn answer and the prophecy though?

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 04:34 PM
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him." He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope." What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 04:36 PM
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him." He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope." What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?
thanks

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 05:24 PM
I think we can expect a full assault on the SC by somebody.

Bob, what do you know we actually agree on something ahead of time! :D

As for the SC assaulting Egwene, the raid was pretty much a success, though they'll still fear the superweapon which they did not capture. I really think that Egwene will move preemptively...or Rand will find out somehow.

The next book Towers of Midnight, already I think will be a very bloody action filled book. Probably more action than even tGS has, which is saying a lot too. The Seanchan will be busy, too. :)

There is also the small, but real, possibility that Elaida is the only AS they captured who knows how to travel, and she might hold out long enough to be killed or freed.

Elaida will break, it's only a matter of when. Tuon might even take a personal interest in Elaida, as she has in the past with other Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan: Pura, Guisin.

We never did learn what happened the 3rd Salidar Embassy Aes Sedai sent to Tarabon: Afara. Whereas Edesina was freed by Mat in Ebou Dar, and Guisin is now a personal damane of Tuon. So where and what happened to Afara?

Tuon did teach the old Aes Sedai healing weaves to the rest of her personal damane, which she found out from Guisin. Elaida knows the more efficient five part healing, which Tuon will love to learn.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 06:59 PM
[quote=FelixPax]

If Tuon was in-born with the ability to channel though, she's going to have a grave personal weakness which impacted her public face within the Empire itself. Tuon will need Mat's help to gain the Aes Sedai support politically and personally to survive learning how channel safely herself. None of the Seanchan could help her, except maybe those captured Aes Sedai sisters in Ebou Dar now. :D
quote]

I highly doubt this is the case. Tuon is almost as old as Mat 19/20 by now? If it were in born she would have succumb by now. Seems like 15/16 is the most common age, 18 being a "late bloomer" Its probable possible but highly unlikely. We've heard of damane being collared late, but was there any instance of learners being collared after becoming sul'dam? I don't think so.

Ivhon
10-29-2009, 07:06 PM
[quote=FelixPax]

If Tuon was in-born with the ability to channel though, she's going to have a grave personal weakness which impacted her public face within the Empire itself. Tuon will need Mat's help to gain the Aes Sedai support politically and personally to survive learning how channel safely herself. None of the Seanchan could help her, except maybe those captured Aes Sedai sisters in Ebou Dar now. :D
quote]

I highly doubt this is the case. Tuon is almost as old as Mat 19/20 by now? If it were in born she would have succumb by now. Seems like 15/16 is the most common age, 18 being a "late bloomer" Its probable possible but highly unlikely. We've heard of damane being collared late, but was there any instance of learners being collared after becoming sul'dam? I don't think so.

She would have had plenty of life-or-death stressors with all the assassination attempts, too.

WoT post

Weird Harold
10-29-2009, 07:21 PM
I highly doubt this is the case. Tuon is almost as old as Mat 19/20 by now? If it were in born she would have succumb by now. Seems like 15/16 is the most common age, 18 being a "late bloomer" Its probable possible but highly unlikely. We've heard of damane being collared late, but was there any instance of learners being collared after becoming sul'dam? I don't think so.

One of Bethamin's POV's gives a time frame/age range for the Seanchan Testing. It continues even for sul'dam until the late 20's or so, IIRC.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:32 PM
i thought it was 22/23 actually but that was a rarity


EDIT: ( still doubt Tuon has it inborn though)

Not simply horror at seeing two sul'dam revealed as marath'damane, but her own sudden personal terror. Often she thought she could almost see damane's weaves, and she could always sense a damane's presence and know how strong she was. Many sul'dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a'dam. Yet the sight of that desperate pair roused unwanted thoughts, putting a different and frightening complexion on what she had always accepted. Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too. Even sul'dam had to undergo the yearly testing, until their twenty-fifth naming day, and she had passed by failing every time. Only. . . . There would be a new testing after Renna and Seta were discovered, a new testing to find the marath'damane who somehow had evaded the first. The Empire itself might tremble before such a blow. And with the image of Renna and Seta burned into her brain, she had known with total certainty that after those tests, Bethamin Zeami would no longer be a respected citizen. Instead, a damane called Bethamin would serve the Empire.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 10:25 AM
I highly doubt this is the case. Tuon is almost as old as Mat 19/20 by now? If it were in born she would have succumb by now.

Tuon is a bit of an exceptional among the Seanchan. She tested to become a Sul'dam, yet how frequently has Tuon worn an adam herself since that long trip with Mat? Not much at all. Any buffering effects gained by the adam would be temporary, and likely protective for individuals born with a spark.

Do you really think members born by the Empress previously, were tested to become damane? The highest class among the Seanchan, royalty becoming lowly damane? Would an Empress lower her own children and future heir by an adam testing? Somehow I doubt it, rank and status move against it. Tuon's probably the one person no one among the Seanchan, would think could possibly become a damane. Heir to the Empire, a damane? Imagine the sheer shock...their own Empress an unchained, uncontrolled damane?

Seems like 15/16 is the most common age, 18 being a "late bloomer" Its probable possible but highly unlikely.

Tuon is within the typical range to begin to channel, for a sparker. Especially since she has little time, to wear an adam now, considering her new duties as a ruler.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 10:30 AM
Do you really think members born by the Empress previously, were tested to become damane? The highest class among the Seanchan, royalty becoming lowly damane? Would an Empress lower her own children and future heir by an adam testing? Somehow I doubt it, rank and status move against it. Tuon's probably the one person no one among the Seanchan, would think could possibly become a damane. Heir to the Empire, a damane? Imagine the sheer shock...their own Empress an unchained, uncontrolled damane?

Considering the harshness of their Royal family, Yes, Yes I do see that happening. High Blood are routinely made property in Seanchan. I doubt they would flinch at the thought of a royal child becoming a damane. There would be plenty of other heirs available anyway in most cases. They would simply remove her name from the rolls of the High Blood and move on.

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 12:29 PM
Do you really think members born by the Empress previously, were tested to become damane? The highest class among the Seanchan, royalty becoming lowly damane? Would an Empress lower her own children and future heir by an adam testing? ...

Tuon certainly believed it was possible.

"Perhaps in small doses, spread over sixteen years," she said. Catching sight of herself in the mirror, she held her smile long enough to make sure there was no sting in her words, then replaced it with sternness. She certainly felt more affection for the woman who had raised her than for the mother she had seen only twice a year before becoming an adult, or the brothers and sisters she had been taught from her first steps to battle for their mother's favor. Two of them had died in those struggles, so far, and three had tried to kill her. A sister and a brother had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel. Her place was far from secure even now. A single misstep could see her dead, or worse, stripped and sold on the public block. Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 12:39 PM
Not to hijack this thread... well actually that's definitely my intention, but....

How is Mat going to deal with the brutality of the royal family. He grew up in two rivers. I don't see him having children with Tuon and then letting them assassinate each other. Do we know anything about how the empress and her husband interact? This whole situation is very disconcerting to me! She better not change Mat too much! :mad:

Trutino
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
I don't recall... was it West and South, North and East?

I think Rand is going to allow the Seanchan to take Arad Domon, I got that impression from his thoughts about how the Seanchan brought order and kept people safe while he had failed.

On this thought, I thought Rand's observations in Ebou Dar were very interesting (751-2):

"The people here weren't afraid...When Rand heard commoners speaking, they were glad for the stability...the people were happy--even prosperous!..."

"The Dragon Reborn walked among this people, and they did not know him. To them, Rand al'Thor was far off. The Last Battle was secondary to whether or not they could get their chickens to market, or whether their son would recover from his cough, or whether they would be able to afford that new silk vest they had been wanting."

When Rand became sick (753):

"The people looked so concerned. So worried. They cared."

It seems as if the pattern is not as messed up here, the DO doesn't touch it very strongly. Now Rand knows that order prevents these things from happening. The people cared when he vomited. (Clearly they hadn't seen people vomit beetles and burst into flame.) They still have a functioning market economy with enough healthy livestock that they could afford to sell it. How will this affect his relations with the Seanchan? He needs them to provide the order that may help reduce the DO's power in Randland. I'm not sure how it will all play out, but the foreshadowing seems obvious. He won't want people to be so complacent that they won't fight, but they have to have order and peace if they are to defeat the DO.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
How much Perrin, Mat and Rand are affecting all of this, as they run all over the place? I wonder how much the "order" has to do with not having Ta'veren jump into and out of your area, sending ripples through the Pattern and what appears to me, allowing the Dark One's influence to peak through.

Also, is Moridin's connection to Rand allowing the Dark One to influence any area where Rand goes more directly?

I know each instance of problems like this cannot be directly tied to the presence of Rand and company...just a thought.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
How much Perrin, Mat and Rand are affecting all of this, as they run all over the place? I wonder how much the "order" has to do with not having Ta'veren jump into and out of your area, sending ripples through the Pattern and what appears to me, allowing the Dark One's influence to peak through.

Also, is Moridin's connection to Rand allowing the Dark One to influence any area where Rand goes more directly?

I know each instance of problems like this cannot be directly tied to the presence of Rand and company...just a thought.

Smells like an interesting theory.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 02:05 PM
Hmm - can Ta'veren and gateways and broken seals...be a bad combination?

It would be an interesting theory...

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Tuon certainly believed it was possible.

Love the foreshadowing quote you found W.H. about Tuon, although it's take from Winter's Heart not the KoD book:


Chapter 14
What the Veil Hides
"Perhaps in small doses, spread over sixteen years," she said. Catching sight of herself in the mirror, she held her smile long enough to make sure there was no sting in her words, then replaced it with sternness. She certainly felt more affection for the woman who had raised her than for the mother she had seen only twice a year before becoming an adult, or the brothers and sisters she had been taught from her first steps to battle for their mother's favor. Two of them had died in those struggles, so far, and three had tried to kill her. A sister and a brother had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel. Her place was far from secure even now. A single misstep could see her dead, or worse, stripped and sold on the public block. Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

I didn't see Tuon tested to "wear" the adam as a damane though here. Yet there is another section where Tuon asked to be tested to become a Sul'dam and the Empress allow Tuon to test by not opening her mouth to say no. Tuon was a favorite of the Empress to become heir, why up end the strongest possible heir when an adam as Sul'dam would save her because of its buffering effect? Since the Seanchan believe that Sul'dam and Damane are separate abilities, why would they test Tuon after she tested with the ability to become a Sul'dam first? She very likely become a Sul'dam before her spark was expressed as a channeler, yet an adam would work still for her to control a damane with.

Tuon started very young as an Sul'dam before sixteen, too. If nothing else, we know the channeling gene is widely expressed in the Empress family, sparkers too! :)

Trutino
10-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Hmm - can Ta'veren and gateways and broken seals...be a bad combination?

It would be an interesting theory...

Perhaps it's a combination of the two. It wasn't until after Mat left Ebou Dar, that Beslan settled down and swore fealty to Tuon. This was right after she thought to herself: "Order...I represent order." In any event, I am doubtful Beslan would have sworn fealty if Mat were still in Ebou Dar.

Perhaps binding the Nine Moons is about the Dragon Reborn binding order to his "project." Politically in an alliance with the Seanchan in some way, but more figuratively also. Perhaps this is part of "post-Dragonmount-we can do things differently" Rand. The importance of the three Ta'veren being with Rand might both be to bend the pattern at the Last Battle but also to keep them out of the way in order for Fortuona to do her job.

Trutino
10-30-2009, 02:35 PM
Love the foreshadowing quote you found W.H. about Tuon, although it's take from Winter's Heart not the KoD book:



I didn't see Tuon tested to "wear" the adam as a damane though here. Yet there is another section where Tuon asked to be tested to become a Sul'dam and the Empress allow Tuon to test by not opening her mouth to say no. Tuon was a favorite of the Empress to become heir, why up end the strongest possible heir when an adam as Sul'dam would save her because of its buffering effect? Since the Seanchan believe that Sul'dam and Damane are separate abilities, why would they test Tuon after she tested with the ability to become a Sul'dam first? She very likely become a Sul'dam before her spark was expressed as a channeler, yet an adam would work still for her to control a damane with.

Tuon started very young as an Sul'dam before sixteen, too. If nothing else, we know the channeling gene is widely expressed in the Empress family, sparkers too! :)

I don't think that's what she means. She said they were stricken "as if" they could channel. I think those siblings screwed up so massively that they were disowned in a manner reminiscent of when people are found who can channel.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 03:48 PM
I don't think that's what she means. She said they were stricken "as if" they could channel. I think those siblings screwed up so massively that they were disowned in a manner reminiscent of when people are found who can channel.

That's not the feeling I got from Winter's Heart, there is also a small fact that no Male has been Emperor for a thousand years in Seandar. Why only females rulers? When the Breaking occurred roughly two thousands years prior (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/history/timeline.html) to the invasion of Seanchan. The Seanchan royal line has channeling genes, and royal males would be open to the 'taint', while the royal females wouldn't be. That's what I'd deduced at least.

I have felt Tuon is a sparker, not a learner for a very long time. There was once a faction which claimed Aviendha was a sparker early in the series, is there one likewise that claims Tuon is a "sparker" as well?

Tuon only arrived in the Westlands around Late Winter 1000 NE in Winter's Heart, while The Gathering Storm occurs over Spring 1000 NE. Tuon has not aged that much in calendar years, since her introduction into the story.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-30-2009, 04:09 PM
Perhaps binding the Nine Moons is about the Dragon Reborn binding order to his "project."

I've always believed binding = bonding. Rand will bond her, whether to prove his/her/their trust or to bind themselves together so one cannot cause pain to the other. Bind is a term used by the Forsaken when discussing the various rods, and how they were used in the past vs. how they are used now.

No one ever agrees with me though. :D

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Also, is Moridin's connection to Rand allowing the Dark One to influence any area where Rand goes more directly?
That is indeed the conclusion I've been leaning toward.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:26 PM
There's no real proof that Tuon is a sparker. Until she starts channeling, all it is is speculation. All we know is that she CAN learn to channel.

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 10:49 PM
I don't think that's what she means. She said they were stricken "as if" they could channel. I think those siblings screwed up so massively that they were disowned in a manner reminiscent of when people are found who can channel.
Welcome, trutino. Please register so that we can be sure it's the ame person using that name.

The revance of Tuon's thought about her siblings being strcken from the records is that the imperial family isn't immune to the cosequences of channeling. It is indeed unclear that the imperial family is exempt from the annual testing for marath'damane; testing for Sul'dam is optional -- at least for High Bloods == but Tuon's thoughts suggest that Royals are not exempt from Law and Custom.

Terez
10-30-2009, 10:55 PM
Trutino did register. Nae'blis deleted him for a spammer. :rolleyes:

Davian93
10-31-2009, 09:16 AM
Trutino did register. Nae'blis deleted him for a spammer. :rolleyes:

Um...Gee, Welcome to Theoryland I guess.

Enigma
10-31-2009, 10:27 AM
When Mat was discussing the death of Tylin with Tuon in KoD she said that the law required proof of murder and the way she said it suggsted to me at least that Seanchan law applied to everyone except the empress.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:55 AM
When Mat was discussing the death of Tylin with Tuon in KoD she said that the law required proof of murder and the way she said it suggsted to me at least that Seanchan law applied to everyone except the empress.

As Prince Consort, Mat might very well have extensive powers with the Empress in private at least. For all we know, the Seanchan could very well be like the Sea Folk in that regard. Mat would likely be her closest advisor and have great latitude with Tuon behind closed doors...regardless of how things in public will be (where there is no way Tuon allows Mat to act like he normally would).