Fins trump Americans in education quality

[JSUCamel]

Several Lessons to be Learned from the Finnish School System (http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10/several-lessons-to-be-learned-from-the-finnish-school-system/)

Fascinating read, particularly since I'm a former teacher. Their education system is essentially the anti-thesis of America. The article does point out that America and Finland have some major differences in terms of education approaches. For instance, almost all Fins(is that right?) speak Finnish (i suppose), while 1 in 12 children in American public schools are learning English for the first time (ESL students).

At any rate, interesting notes and definitely something for us Americans to consider.

[Terez]

That sounds similar to how I was told, by my best friend in 10th grade, a Japanese exhange student, it's done in Japan. She was at an athletic high school in Japan, but she told me there are music schools and academic schools and vocational schools as well, and that everyone goes to whatever school based on the grades they make before then. In the US, we go to college based on high school grades, but grades before high school don't come into it much other than for tracking. One of the biggest benefits of vocational high school is that those who aren't college-bound at least come out of school with a trade, if they applied themselves. In the US, they just come out of school and have to start out as minimum-wage helpers, with no guarantee of the training they need to handle the skilled labor.

[Weird Harold]

Several Lessons to be Learned from the Finnish School System (http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10/several-lessons-to-be-learned-from-the-finnish-school-system/)

At any rate, interesting notes and definitely something for us Americans to consider.

There is one sentence in that article that explains everything:

It is interesting to note that one of the most notable attributes of Finnish children is their level of personal responsibility.

The school system in Finland has little to do with the level of personal responsibility, it's a cultural thing -- one that can be found in first and second generation finnish-americans (and into the third generation in some cases) as well as in the homeland.

(My paternal Grandfather immigrated in the 20's and my great-uncle is a Finnish National Hero.)

My personal experience as a student, tutor/OJT Trainer, and parent reinforces that obsrevation -- people who have the personal responsibility to take advantage of the opportunity to learn will learn no matter how horrible the school system might be. Those without some level of personal responsibility won't learn even if you resurrect Socrates to teach them.

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

There is no silly “college for all” mantra and there certainly isn’t a push to have all students sit through a trigonometry class if that is not relevant to the student. More importantly, there is also no negative connotation to the concept of vocational school.

We noted previously the writings of Charles Murray in an earlier post, Too Many Americans Are Going to College, that far too many people see such training as second class while college is thought of as first class. Julie Walker, executive director of the American Association of School Librarians, notes the obvious student responsibility results at this juncture.

While “the U.S. holds teachers accountable for teaching” in Finland “they hold the students accountable for learning.”

Perhaps more importantly, there is a realization of the realistic academic potential of the entire student population. As Murray notes in another article, “Half of all children are below average, and teachers can do only so much for them.”

I love that.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Some one some where might actually figure out what a crock of sh!t No Child Left Behind actually is.


But I'm not going to hold my breath.

[JSUCamel]

I think the most important quotes to me are:

More importantly, there is also no negative connotation to the concept of vocational school.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with vocational school. My brother decided against going to college. Instead, he spent years working for a pizza joint and now he's the manager of a Papa John's. Soon, he'll be up for a promotion to regional manager. His goal is to own his own franchise. He's wildly successful and making more than enough to support he and his fiance!

Perhaps more importantly, there is a realization of the realistic academic potential of the entire student population. As Murray notes in another article, “Half of all children are below average, and teachers can do only so much for them.”

Thank you, thank you, thank you! You can only do so much for people. No Child Left Behind mandates that the testing scores must improve every year. There's something called AYP (Annual Yearly Progress) that schools have to meet. This is a score based on graduation rates, drop-out rates, test scores, overall grades, attendance, etc. Each year, the AYP goes up.

Let's say school A's AYP was 90% this year. Next year, it must be 92%. If it meets the goal, it goes up another 2%, so the next year must be 94%, and the next 96%, and the next 98%... and the next 100%. It's completely unrealistic (and let's be honest, impossible) for school to have 100% graduation rates, 0% dropping rates, perfect test scores, perfect grades and perfect attendance. Impossible.

If it doesn't meet the goal, it has two additional years to meet the goal. If after the first year it hasn't met the goal, it goes on a probationary period.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. You CAN'T MAKE EVERYBODY PERFECT. You can't. For those above average, you can certainly do a lot to improve their knowledge and help them reach their potential. For those below average, you can do the same, but their potential isn't going to be the same.

NCLB assumes that college is the end-game for everyone, that everyone can be doctors and lawyers. It doesn't take into account that some people just want to manage a pizza joint or be an auto mechanic.

And that's one of the biggest failures if NCLB's ideals. I wish it were possible, but it just isn't.

[Crispin's Crispian]

My son (almost five y.o.) said recently that he wants to be an auto mechanic. I was ecstatic. (My wife and I both have graduate degrees, and I'm a strong supporter of "college for anyone who wants it".)

[irerancincpkc]

Some one some where might actually figure out what a crock of sh!t No Child Left Behind actually is.

One of the few things that made me very mad at Ted Kennedy...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Ted Kennedy voted for that excressence? Lovely. Apparently no one looked at the Texas school system before thinking it was a good idea.

[irerancincpkc]

He is sadly one of the ones who came up with it. He had good intentions, to be sure, and he has since turned on it, so I forgive him. :D

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Got news for ya. Ted Kennedy didn't come up with that bullshit.

http://chronicle.com/news/article/3957/texas-study-suggests-no-child-left-behind-could-hurt-high-school-graduation-rates

It was modelled on a similar program already in place in Texas that ShrubBush spearheaded. The dumbass. This is the program I attempted to teach third grade under.

[irerancincpkc]

Well, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#No_Child_Left_Behind), he was one of the leading members who wrote it, but no, I feel bad for you having to teach under it; I want to teach, and when I talk to my teachers they always rant about it to me. :D

[JSUCamel]

New blog re: education:

http://blog.anamazingmind.com/2008/05/sucky-schools-how-to-repair-our.html

It's long, but well worth the read. check it out.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I wonder if that rote learning method is why I never 'got' algebra. I'm fairly certain I could learn it, I just don't do rote memorization very well.



I'm reading the online book one of the comments referenced: The Underground History of American Education. It's reminded me of something rather horrific I ecperienced when I was teaching third grade in an inner-city school. The principal would get on the loudspeaker daily, yes, DAILY, and tell the students that "conformity was the way to success."

[Sei'taer]

I wonder if that rote learning method is why I never 'got' algebra. I'm fairly certain I could learn it, I just don't do rote memorization very well.


I had the same problem. I was very good in anything word related, like English, social studies, history, that kind of stuff...but when it came to math I was totally lost. It took me getting the job I have now to actually "get it".

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

Yeah, I didn't really get math either, once it got to higher algebra and calculus in high school. I could follow the formulas and plug the numbers in, but I never got the WHY of a lot of it, so I never understood it.

Thankfully I never have to touch that stuff again :D

[John Snow]

and part of it was that computers came along to do the arithmetic for me. Then I got into statistics and discovered it was a lot of fun. Algebra should not be rote memorization; long division should not be rote. Algebra is simply a set of rules for shifting things around, and the methods we're taught for doing arithmetic calculations are just one way among many of doing it. The problem is, many who teach us don't realize that, and tend to get hostile when students do something in a different way. Of course, most kids buy into the methods as an end in themselves, which was my biggest error. I thought what I had to learn was the official way of doing long division, when what I should've learned is how to figure out how many times this number occurs in that number. Once I started playing with that sort of thing, the whole area got a lot more interesting, but sadly, I never got that from schools.

Another big difference between Asian schools and US schools (and maybe Finns, too, dunno) is that US kids & parents generally believe high-achieving kids do so because of intrinsic qualities - i.e. the kid is 'gifted' or 'talented' - whereas in Asia most of the difference is attributed to how much the kid applies him/her self. Makes a difference.

[JSUCamel]

The problem is, many who teach us don't realize that, and tend to get hostile when students do something in a different way. Of course, most kids buy into the methods as an end in themselves, which was my biggest error

Exactly. Often times I would skip a step that was intuitively obvious to me, and the teacher would count off for "not showing work". Schools teach you to follow the exact same steps via rote memorization. They should be teaching the WHY of math as well as the HOW, not just the WHAT. Math isn't a series of tutorials, it's a way of thinking and problem solving, and unfortunately, most of America doesn't get that. Same thing applies to most scientific endeavors.

I've always been pretty good at math. It just makes sense to me. Unlike Prof Snow, I hate it. I'm good at it, but it's incredibly boring to me.

Another big difference between Asian schools and US schools (and maybe Finns, too, dunno) is that US kids & parents generally believe high-achieving kids do so because of intrinsic qualities - i.e. the kid is 'gifted' or 'talented' - whereas in Asia most of the difference is attributed to how much the kid applies him/her self. Makes a difference.

This is something I've been thinking about recently. I think there's a difference between being smart and being educated. I think everyone has the potential to become an educated person, but not everyone is smart.

Take my stepdad, for example. He's an idiot. I mean that in the nicest possible way, but he's an idiot. On the other hand, he's extremely educated. He's just smart enough to know that educated people make it a bit further than the non educated people, and so he throws himself into learning as much as he can. He's one of the dumbest, most educated people I know (if that makes sense).

My brother, on the other hand, is pretty damn smart. He's not educated (he dropped out of high school), but he's smarter than most people I know. If he puts his mind to something, he'll figure it out in no time. And if he ever did decide to apply himself in school and become educated, he'd go a lot further than my stepdad in the same period of time.

I don't really think either one is any better than the other. My stepdad isn't any less of a person than my brother. So don't think I'm saying educated people aren't worth as much as smart people. In fact, it all depends on application.

Given my stepdad's education and my brother's brains, I think both of them could, given the same set of circumstances, figure out solutions to the same problem in roughly the same amount of time.

However, given my brother's intuitive understanding of how things work, if he were educated as well (smart + educated), then he'd figure it out faster.

If that makes sense.

I think my stepdad is one of the most educated people I know. I think that people who apply themselves will go very, very far -- at least as far, if not further, than those who are simply "smart".

So yes, I think applying oneself does determine how well you succeed in life, but I think intrinsic qualities often play a role as well.

I think it's easy to get lost in the whole intrinsic quality thing, and think that you're smart and gifted when you're really not.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The converse of that is, no matter how smart you are, if you don't WORK, you're gonna be just as homeless as the semi-retarted wino you share an alley with.


I'd also like to point out: A trailer park is a good place to be FROM.

[Davian93]

This is something I've been thinking about recently. I think there's a difference between being smart and being educated. I think everyone has the potential to become an educated person, but not everyone is smart.

Sometimes I think gifted students are either overlooked or even screwed over by a school system so concerned with standardized testing that it ignores the best students because "They dont need the help". Its a very communistic approach inherent in NCLB that scares the hell out of me. Its another reason any kids I have will be at private school and damn the public school system.

[Terez]

My algebra teacher sucks. If I didn't have Marie giving me word problems (applications help), I'd be screwed.

[Weird Harold]

Exactly. Often times I would skip a step that was intuitively obvious to me, and the teacher would count off for "not showing work". Schools teach you to follow the exact same steps via rote memorization. They should be teaching the WHY of math as well as the HOW, not just the WHAT. Math isn't a series of tutorials, it's a way of thinking and problem solving, and unfortunately, most of America doesn't get that. Same thing applies to most scientific endeavors.

Showing each step in a math process IS teaching How -- or at least checking to see that the student knows HOW he got from point A to point B. Math education isn't always about getting the right answer, it's about demonstrating that you know HOW to get the right answer.

That said, Rote memorization has a definite place in the study and application of mathematics.

Because I learned the times table through 12x12 by rote memorization (as well as learning how and why multiplication forms a "table" in the first place) is the reason I can make change without a caclulator -- and often confuse the hell out of people who make mistakes even with a cash register showing them the exact amount to return because they can't remember that three quarters is 75 cents without counting on their fingers.

Its another reason any kids I have will be at private school and damn the public school system.

You're pretty much screwed with any formal school setting because the teachers and administrators are all taught the "Proper Way To Educate Children" to get their teaching credentials and the "PWTTC" is established by Child Psychologists more concerned about children's fragile psyches than whether they ever learn anything.

A typical child psychologist couldn't teach a rock to "sit" or "stay" yet they're the ones determining how teachers are taught to teach.

[John Snow]

*look, look everybody, Davian and I agreeing on non-WoT!!* :p

I'm not sure if it's anti-intellectualism or simply lack of resources, but the education for most kids with IQ above, say, 130 is wasted, and for those above the 98th percentile, please, for mercy's sake, get the kid some sort of alternative to public school - or to school at all.

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

See Davian, I'm fiercely pro-public school, but I kind of agree with you. In my high school, a TON of money was being funneled toward sped. programs and programs for mentally handicapped kids - which, don't get me wrong, are good things, but honestly, in my high school, they didn't amount to much more than daycare. And this was at the expense of the honors and AP classes, which took huge hits with budget cuts. But I think a lot of it depends on which public school you're talking about. I know my hometown is really going to shit, but in a lot of the cities around me, their schools might as well be private schools.

[Terez]

Because I learned the times table through 12x12 by rote memorization (as well as learning how and why multiplication forms a "table" in the first place) is the reason I can make change without a caclulator -- and often confuse the hell out of people who make mistakes even with a cash register showing them the exact amount to return because they can't remember that three quarters is 75 cents without counting on their fingers.
When I first started at my job, which requires adding tickets by hand and adding tax (7%) to them, we weren't allowed to use caluculators. They started allowing caluculators several years ago, and also allowing us to add 10% gratuity to to-go orders.

Some of these dumb bitches I work with need the calculator for the 10%...

I can do the 7% in my head, though...of course. :)

[Mort]

Sometimes I think gifted students are either overlooked or even screwed over by a school system so concerned with standardized testing that it ignores the best students because "They dont need the help". Its a very communistic approach inherent in NCLB that scares the hell out of me. Its another reason any kids I have will be at private school and damn the public school system.

Wouldn't a communistic school give you help whether if you need it or not? :) At least the applied versions that has been tried. The theory of communism is often another thing...

Anyway... couldn't the problem instead be a problem of lack of resources instead of a communistic ideal? Classes too large to actually give every student the same amount of time they all deserve.

Still a reason to try and get the kids into private schools I guess, as long as one can afford it.

[Davian93]

Nah...a communistic school would treat everyone the same no matter if they deserved special attention or were far advanced than their peers. As a former gifted student who went ot a good HS for gifted kids, it disgusts me that alot of schools have cut back the programs that help out the best students achieve their vast potential to focuse on the mere sheep who will likely not give a crap anyway...

~reads above~

Damn I sound elitist sometimes.

[Mort]

Nah...a communistic school would treat everyone the same no matter if they deserved special attention or were far advanced than their peers. As a former gifted student who went ot a good HS for gifted kids, it disgusts me that alot of schools have cut back the programs that help out the best students achieve their vast potential to focuse on the mere sheep who will likely not give a crap anyway...

~reads above~

Damn I sound elitist sometimes.

SOMETIMES!!? :D

Kidding.. but my thought was that they would treat everyone the same but they would help out all the kids the same way, getting the genious communist kids help they didn't need. :)

That's always how I've imagined the corrupted forms of communisms works (all communism that has been applied has essentially been corrupted imo). They do what they do to the letter, and the end result isn't as important, as long as it's been done. In this case, they HAVE helped out all the kids, but it wasn't a help to some of them.

[Uno]

Nah...a communistic school would treat everyone the same no matter if they deserved special attention or were far advanced than their peers. As a former gifted student who went ot a good HS for gifted kids, it disgusts me that alot of schools have cut back the programs that help out the best students achieve their vast potential to focuse on the mere sheep who will likely not give a crap anyway...

~reads above~

Damn I sound elitist sometimes.

..the Finnish school system, which is the object of so much admiration, does not have classes for gifted students, or honour rolls, or anything of that sort. So if people want to learn from the success of others, and not just revisit old rants about how everything is going to hell, they might want to take note of how the Finns actually manage to arrive at these results.

Also, reducing everything to a standardized test is a fundamentally capitalist approach, in that knowledge is transformed into a generic commodity, easily categorized, classified, and (since the tests form the basis for funding) traded.

[Davian93]

..the Finnish school system, which is the object of so much admiration, does not have classes for gifted students, or honour rolls, or anything of that sort. So if people want to learn from the success of others, and not just revisit old rants about how everything is going to hell, they might want to take note of how the Finns actually manage to arrive at these results.

Also, reducing everything to a standardized test is a fundamentally capitalist approach, in that knowledge is transformed into a generic commodity, easily categorized, classified, and (since the tests form the basis for funding) traded.


Ahh, but treating all the kids the same instead of equally is a very communistic mistake.

[Uno]

Ahh, but treating all the kids the same instead of equally is a very communistic mistake.

...but you could argue that capitalism does much the same with labour, and therefore displays a marked tendency to reduce human beings to standardized units. Communism and capitalism share the dehumanizing tendency of treating diverse populations as mere statistic units.

Besides, the Nordic countries share a strong egalitarian mentality, and are often quite uncomfortable with expressions of elitism of any kind. This outlook owes less to socialist ideology than to the traditional cooperative relations of the rural communities that dominated Scandinavia until a couple of generations ago. Yet the Finns apparently manage to make an egalitarian approach to education the basis of a highly effective school system.

In recent years, Norwegian commentators have often remarked upon the relative superiority of the Finnish schools, and what several of them point to is the greater authority given to teachers. In Norway, teachers often feel constrained by the many directives emanating from the department of education, which is dominated not by teachers or people with actual knowledge of any particular scientific discipline, but by those with a background in the ideologically driven field of pedagogy.

[Davian93]

This outlook owes less to socialist ideology than to the traditional cooperative relations of the rural communities that dominated Scandinavia until a couple of generations ago.

Which is probably why they're the only countries to ever make socialism really work.

[Uno]

Well, socialism, so-called, can mean a number of things. There's socialism as a organizational principle of labour relations and state-sponsored welfare, which few people in Norway (at least) really seriously question, and then there's socialism as an ideology, which is a different creature. In other words, many people who adhere to what US Americans would see as socialism are actually staunch cultural conservatives. This is something ideological socialists often don't understand, as they seem to assume that people who are comfortable with welfare socialism (which, after all, works to the benefit of the majority) are per extension comfortable with socialist ideology, which is often not the case.

[Davian93]

Well, socialism, so-called, can mean a number of things. There's socialism as a organizational principle of labour relations and state-sponsored welfare, which few people in Norway (at least) really seriously question, and then there's socialism as an ideology, which is a different creature. In other words, many people who adhere to what US Americans would see as socialism are actually staunch cultural conservatives. This is something ideological socialists often don't understand, as they seem to assume that people who are comfortable with welfare socialism (which, after all, works to the benefit of the majority) are per extension comfortable with socialist ideology, which is often not the case.


I'm referring to the government safety nets that the Nordic countries seem so successful at...not the cultural issues. I think Sweden, Norway etc have done a great job with those things.

[Uno]

I'm referring to the government safety nets that the Nordic countries seem so successful at...not the cultural issues. I think Sweden, Norway etc have done a great job with those things.

However, this approach to doing things probably depends on a high degree of solidarity within the population, a situation that, due to recent demographic trends (which I'd be branded racist for commenting extensively upon), is rapidly changing.

[John Snow]

is a different kettle of fish altogether from the US variety, as you've doubtless discovered. Why, the Scandinavians still have kings & queens & such. :D When I was living in Minneapolis, late 80s, King Olaf (?) and Queen Something came to visit - stayed with some (very wealthy) people we knew from my son's school.

[Uno]

is a different kettle of fish altogether from the US variety, as you've doubtless discovered. Why, the Scandinavians still have kings & queens & such. :D When I was living in Minneapolis, late 80s, King Olaf (?) and Queen Something came to visit - stayed with some (very wealthy) people we knew from my son's school.

As I indicated (or at least meant to), many Norwegians are traditionalists, and you can't get much more traditional than kings.

That would be Olav V, who had no queen, as his wife Crown Princess Märtha died before his succession to the throne. I imagine he was accompanied by one of his daughters, probably Princess Astrid. King Olav, of course, sought to maintain very close relations to the US, having been a personal friend of FDR. Then prince, now king, Harald spent part of his childhood in the White House, as the younger members of the family were in exile in the US during the German occupation of the country.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Waitaminute, I was there in the 80's. I'm surprised my dad wasn't over the moon about that, being the staunch Nordic flag-waver he is. I never heard of that visit.

[John Snow]

That's too bad he didn't hear about it - it was a pretty big deal. Let's see, it would've been about 1988 or 89.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Well, he was in the middle of being laid off from the computer company he'd worked at....

[Sarevok]

One thing bothers me about this thread:
It's COMMUNIST!! Communistic isn't a word!!!!

[Gilshalos Sedai]

"Terroristic" has numbed me to the point of insensibility when fake "-ic" extensions are now added on to words.

[John Snow]

Well, he was in the middle of being laid off from the computer company he'd worked at....

Oh wait....your father. ahem.:o

[Mort]

One thing bothers me about this thread:
It's COMMUNIST!! Communistic isn't a word!!!!

Sorry, too late. It's been written, so now it is. :)