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Sodas
10-29-2009, 01:05 AM
So I finally read Terez's "huge post that would explain everything" and felt disappointed.

So I started a new thread, sorry Bela.

But here is what boils down as to her "proof" that LTT is a construct.

Rand finally admits to himself that he was wrong about Lews Therin being 'real' - he defined 'real' as 'Lews Therin and I are distinct. Two people." But all along, they have been one man.

I'm glad that Rand finally realized that he was the "same man" as LTT. Afterall, he had been talking real versus construct with Min here at theoryland.com. But, Min also thought Gaidal Cain was same man as all his other persons he's ever been before as well.

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

Meaning, every reincarnation is the same man. Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowleding that LTT is another incarnation of himself. Clearly, those talks with Min helped. And here we all thought she supported the construct theory according to Terez. :D

/construct

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:08 AM
Yay, another Lews Therin thread!

What's your point Sodas? You seem to be agreeing with me, but somehow I have a feeling that's not what you were trying to do.

Of course Gaidal Cain is the same man in every life. Every person is the same person in every life. Rand was no exception, even when he believed otherwise. :)

Sodas
10-29-2009, 01:14 AM
I disagree with your intepretation of that quote. You quoted it out of context.

Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowledging that LTT is just an incarnation of himself. Meaning, LTT is real.

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:24 AM
I disagree with your intepretation of that quote. You quoted it out of context. No I didn't. The only reason Rand constructed the voice in the first place was because he couldn't accept that he was Lews Therin, and most of that was because of the Kinslaying, especially the murder of Ilyena. He had to forgive himself for that (or at least, move past it...dunno if he will ever really forgive himself) before he could accept the memories as his own memories. So, my interpretation is more 'in context' than yours. ;)

the_dead
10-29-2009, 01:42 AM
No I didn't. The only reason Rand constructed the voice in the first place was because he couldn't accept that he was Lews Therin, and most of that was because of the Kinslaying, especially the murder of Ilyena. He had to forgive himself for that (or at least, move past it...dunno if he will ever really forgive himself) before he could accept the memories as his own memories. So, my interpretation is more 'in context' than yours. ;)
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?

Sodas
10-29-2009, 01:46 AM
That isn't the context of Rand's statement. That's an opinion. Not to mention an incorrect interpretation of events.

I'll repeat again since you failed to respond to the point of the post :

Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowledging that LTT is just an incarnation of himself.

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 01:46 AM
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?

Look around my friend. every other thread on Theoryland is a Lews Therin thread. :D

Sodas
10-29-2009, 01:51 AM
There is no proof in those threads. Just opinion.

Min's quote is proof that LTT is an incarnation just as real as Rand.

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:51 AM
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?

Sodas
10-29-2009, 01:56 AM
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?

There is a reason. LTT finally died.

Zing!:cool:

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:57 AM
LMAO!

Ieyasu
10-29-2009, 03:18 PM
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?

This isn't what happened at all Terez. There is a readily apparent reason for the reintegration to happen... its the ability to change in each incarnation.

Take a closer look at the order of events, Terez:



Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

He realizes each incarnation has the ability to love, and make changes... new mistakes, and is not doomed to repeat the previous incarnation's mistakes. This realization about the power of change takes place before, and then causes, the reintegration.

Within the same moment of his reintegration of all of his infinite lives, it suddenly occurs to him that if he can be reborn, so can she. The peace he is granted about Ilyena isn't what caused the reintegration, the realization that he can change each incarnation with the power of love is what caused it. After he makes this realization and starts to reintegrate his memories into himself, he simultaneously realizes that she has the chance to live again as well, and is granted peace by that possibility.

The peace he feels about Ilyena was a result of the reintegration of his lives, not the cause. The cause for the reintegration was the realization that love provides the power to make changes in each incarnation. He isn't doomed to make the same mistakes, he has the ability to make NEW mistakes. That realization lead to the reintegration of all his past lives. As they reintegrate, he realizes the possibility of Ilyena living again and was granted peace.

on a side note, I think this was the moment of Rand's victory over the shadow. He was on the edge of becoming a nihilist like Elan, and on the cusp of doing the Dark One's work in ending the wheel of time. THIS was the last battle. This was the moment in which the Shadow could have had victory, willingly, from the Dragon Reborn. Rand backs away from this and remembers love, peace, joy, and hope. The rest will be the mop up of the Shadow, and the consolidation of Rand's triumph.

as a second side note, I wonder how many memories he will take with him when he leaves Dragonmount. Will it just be LTT as he has had, or will he now have access to all of his infinite incarnation's memories.

btw: i dont like how quoting italicizes everything, making italic's useless within a quote

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 06:16 PM
I wouldn't say this was the last battle per se...but I see your point. This is where it turns, where it begins, the physicality of it is up next.

Man though him turning dark and everything... you'd think that would have freaked people out more than it did... it was obvious proof of the Shadow winning.

Terez
10-29-2009, 08:07 PM
He realizes each incarnation has the ability to love, and make changes... new mistakes, and is not doomed to repeat the previous incarnation's mistakes. Indeed! And this is why Rand has never been able to accept Lews Therin's memories before now - he was convinced that he would repeat Lews Therin's mistakes. Hence the litany of dead women, etc. ;)

This realization about the power of change takes place before, and then causes, the reintegration. You haven't explained how this would cause the reintegration, outside the parameters of a psychological problem that has now been resolved.

The peace he feels about Ilyena was a result of the reintegration of his lives, not the cause. You are trying to separate 'love' and 'Ilyena', and with Rand/Lews Therin, that's not really possible. He loves other women now, and he loved other women before, but his love for Ilyena, and the guilt that stemmed from her death, has consumed his mind ever since he started remembering her. He thought about Ilyena before and after the reintegration. ;)

on a side note, I think this was the moment of Rand's victory over the shadow. I essentially agree with that. There are more hurdles he has to jump over, but he couldn't have possibly succeeded without this moment.

as a second side note, I wonder how many memories he will take with him when he leaves Dragonmount. Will it just be LTT as he has had, or will he now have access to all of his infinite incarnation's memories. I don't see any reason to believe that the memories will go away when he leaves there. Maybe he will be like Birgitte, forgetting the older ones because the incarnate brain can only handle so much, though.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 09:28 PM
I don't see any reason to believe that the memories will go away when he leaves there. Maybe he will be like Birgitte, forgetting the older ones because the incarnate brain can only handle so much, though.
I'm not sure I really agree with that, honestly. I personally felt like it was a side-effect of how much saidin he was channeling, while pondering the Pattern and so forth. I would be surprised if those (pre-LTT) memories didn't fade very quickly - though I do think it'll be a fading, and not just a disappearance.

Sodas
10-29-2009, 10:17 PM
Indeed! And this is why Rand has never been able to accept Lews Therin's memories before now

Totally and utterly false.

Rand had already accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own.

Chapter 49. Just another man
Why can't I be strong enough? He didn't know if the thought was his or if it was Lews Therin's. The two were the same. Why can't I do what I must?

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 11:08 PM
Totally and utterly false.

Rand had already accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own.
Well, I don't really agree with Terez if she's saying the revelation at the end was the Magical Cure Of Everything. But I agree if she's saying "til now" in the sense of this book. I even made a post documenting how his perceptions of LTT changed over the course of this book. ;)

Sodas
10-29-2009, 11:19 PM
Well, I don't really agree with Terez if she's saying the revelation at the end was the Magical Cure Of Everything. But I agree if she's saying "til now" in the sense of this book. I even made a post documenting how his perceptions of LTT changed over the course of this book. ;)

So, we agree that the context of the same man quote isn't the Magical Cure of Everything. Good.

Then Bela, you must look at the context of when Rand describes himself as the "same man" as LTT. When Rand says he is the "same man" as LTT, he means it in the same way Min would have said Gaidal Cain's was the "same man" as in all his past incarnations. I.E. Rand and LTT are two real but different incarnations of the same man.

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 11:32 PM
Then Bela, you must look at the context of when Rand describes himself as the "same man" as LTT. When Rand says he is the "same man" as LTT, he means it in the same way Min would have said Gaidal Cain's was the "same man" as in all his past incarnations. I.E. Rand and LTT are two real but different incarnations of the same man.
Problem is... I'm not the one who would argue against that point. I think you're looking to argue with Terez. ;)

I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 12:58 AM
I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.

Bela, I'd like to believe you but I just don't see it.

If you are saying LTT is authetic enough to have mind of it's own, how does Rand overcome that by any concious act? I don't forget how he nearly overtook Rand in tFoH and other scenes. So I can't fathom how Rand's acceptance of forgiveness for killing Ilyena would kill him.

The scene clearly implies that LTT forgives himself, and with it, stops haunting Rand's body.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 01:05 AM
Bela, I'd like to believe you but I just don't see it.

How do you explain Rand' curing his subconscious creation that you say has a mind of it's own? How do you explain a creation that was take over Rand almost in tFoH by anything Rand could possibly do?
By very, very lengthy arguments, mostly. ;)

For the cure - I don't think it was sudden. I think it was a process all through the book, and he had a breakthrough at the end.

For taking over - I'm not really sure what you're asking that we haven't discussed a few million times.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 01:15 AM
For the cure - I don't think it was sudden. I think it was a process all through the book, and he had a breakthrough at the end.

I'm not sure what you mean.

A process of what?

What was the breakthrough?

Terez
10-30-2009, 01:26 AM
I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.
Yeah, me too. Not sure why you think I would believe otherwise...as you can see earlier in the thread, I never argued against what Sodas said - I pointed out that he seemed to be agreeing with me. ;) This debate has a serious straw man problem.

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm not sure what you mean.

A process of what?

What was the breakthrough?

I've been skimming back through the book and I have to agree with bela here. There seems to be a gradual progression with Rand slowly accepting LT as part of himself. About halfway through he starts referring to himself as we. He accepts the memories as his own. He says that he failed to seal the prison the first time. Bela made a huge post on the progression somewhere around here. It was fairly obvious to me when he presented it like that. The breakthrough was when he finally accepted LTT's failure to seal the prison correctly as his own failure. At this point he realized that he was LTT and they voice in his head was a part of himself. Then they integrated and all was right in the world. :)

Sodas
10-30-2009, 03:39 PM
I've been skimming back through the book and I have to agree with bela here. There seems to be a gradual progression with Rand slowly accepting LT as part of himself.

And here is where I think you are both wrong.

Rand gradual progression isn't into LTT or vice versa, it's a progression into becoming part of the grander Dragon Soul.


First off, in Terez's comment, she confuses who is arguing whose case.

"Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind, but Lews Therin knows things - things that I don't.

What Rand is saying here is exactly what Construct theory used to be. That LTT is a trick of Rand's mind according to Semirhage. Insanity. A construct.

But Rand doesn't believe it because LTT knows more than that. Rand knows LTT is authentic because LTT knows things Rand doesn't.

things about history, about the One Power. You had a viewing of me that showed two people merging into one. That means that Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He's real."

So it's easy to see that Rand believes LTT to be a completely different person because he doesn't want to think of himself as mad too.

So what does Min respond?

She walked over and sat next to him. "Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before."

Min is saying is that Rand isn't crazy. LTT isn't a construct. Rand is sane. It's just that Rand and LTT are the same person like Gaidal Cain was with everyone of his incarnations.

But Rand, unfortunately doesn't get it.

"No," Rand said. "Min, he's insane and I'm not. Besides, he failed. I won't. I won't do it, Min. I won't hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won't leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again."

What Rand is saying is that Rand and LTT are two different souls because Rand rejects LTT's actions. Two Souls is obviously false, we know that already from Jordan. So Rand is wrong.

Rand doesn't want to accept LTT is himself. Nor does he want to accept that LTT is a construct.


This finally convinces Rand that he needs to confront LTT about it.
How can we continue the list if we don't know the names! In war, we sought out the Maidens who had fallen. We found every one! The list is flawed! I can't continue!

It's not your list! Rand growled. It's mine, Lews Therin. MINE!

No! the madman sputtered. Who are you? It's mine! I made it. I can't continue now that they're dead. Oh, Light! Balefire? Why did we use balefire? I promised that I would never do that again... - p.654

It's pretty clear that LTT responds in disbelief because LTT also lived through those moments. LTT has always had a distinction between himself and Rand. But here, it's pretty clear that he see's what he's been witness to in Rand's mind as his own.

So when Rand merges into LTT, those moments become a shared experience.

So many names we don't know, Lews Therin whispered. So many dead by our hand.

Here, we have Lews Therin identifying himself and Rand as a single unit. We. We did this. We did that.

This is a change, a turning point for the LTT voice, and the beginning of the end of the Rand voice.

It will be a mercy, Lews Therin whispered. Death is always a mercy. The madman didn't sound as crazy as he once had. In fact, his voice had started to sound an awful lot like Rand's own voice. - p.752

It's not LTT's voice which is becoming more and more like Rand's. It's Rand's voice becoming more and more like LTT's!

How do I know that?

The quiet voice was gone now. It had vanished when he'd thrown Tam to the floor and nearly killed him. Without that voice, did Rand dare continue? If it was the last remnant of the old Rand - the Rand who had believed that he knew what was right and what was wrong -- then what did its silence mean?

So it's Rand's voice that has become LTT's.

So, now we have two voices that sound the same. That sound like LTT.

Why can't I be strong enough? He didn't know if the thought was his or if it was Lews Therin's. The two were the same. Why can't I do what I must? - p.753

Now, let me stop for a second.

Bela, you commented on this saying,
"And now we're specifically being told that the thoughts are blending."

No, I think you are slightly misreading it. The thoughts came from both of them and they sound the same. They both want to know why they keep failing. So blending yes and no. Better description would be they have a motivation at that moment to both be thinking the same thoughts.

Why have we come here? Rand thought.

Because, Rand replied. Because we made this. This is where we died. - p.754

This is full integration. Rand now accepts that he was and is LTT, and every other incarnation of the Dragon Soul of the past.

Here is where you missed the most important part :

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

This is something that LTT distinctly realized. Not Rand. And this is a realization after they already considered themselves one. So how can reintegration, the process of LTT and Rand accepting each other as one person, still allow LTT to have his own thoughts?

Maybe ...Lews Therin, said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

Rand couldn't have that thought. This is the thought of the genuine Lews Therin.

So we know, for a fact, that reintegration didn't cause LTT's voice to disappear. It was LTT realizing he had a second chance in Rand that LTT knew his time had ended. Rand was now him, their lives one. Time to move on.


Therefore, both the Rand voice AND the LTT voice died. Rand, the voice died after the Tam encounter. LTT died when he realized he had a second chance in Rand.

"To live, you must die."

Fits the Aelfinn prophecy. Fits the concept of a haunting or possession, in that the possession must forgive itself to end it's suffering.

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:45 PM
LMAO.

Do we run from the past, then? Lews Therin asked softly. Yes. That is well. Better to run than to face it.
The integration didn't happen, by definition, until the voice went away. ;)

Sodas
10-30-2009, 03:58 PM
LMAO.


The integration didn't happen, by definition, until the voice went away. ;)

That's your opinion. LTT's voice was never part of Rand concious or subconcious. So it has no bearing on integration to me.

Integration of a Soul can happen without the merger of voices. As long as both sides believe they are one, share the memories as one, they are reintegrated.

So, clearly, he was already integrated before he sat on top of Dragonmount.

This is why the scene where LTT and Rand call themselves "we" proves reintegration already happened.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Rand couldn't have that thought. This is the thought of the genuine Lews Therin.
I have no idea why you believe that. ~shrug~

Anyway, good post. I really don't have too many problems with your interpretation, aside from nitpicking. I just happen to lean towards the other explanation myself.

Terez
10-30-2009, 06:45 PM
That's your opinion. LTT's voice was never part of Rand concious or subconcious. So it has no bearing on integration to me.
This makes no sense. The voice only existed because the reintegration hadn't happened. And clearly, they did NOT reintegrate before Dragonmount.

This is why the scene where LTT and Rand call themselves "we" proves reintegration already happened.
This is not the first time 'we' was used - I can think of examples going back to Winter's Heart at least. The reintegration didn't happen until Rand faced his past, accepted it as his own memories, and then, rather than killing himself again, he found a reason to live. He no longer sees Lews Therin as another man, and though he had moments before where he was close to accepting that truth, he obviously didn't fully accept it until after the last time Lews Therin 'spoke' in his mind. If he had fully accepted it before then, then he would not have heard Lews Therin's 'voice' any more.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 06:55 PM
I have no idea why you believe that. ~shrug~

Anyway, good post. I really don't have too many problems with your interpretation, aside from nitpicking. I just happen to lean towards the other explanation myself.

Thank you.

I'm really am sorry that I can't see that other explanation as agreeing with the books. I see three posibilities,

1) Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's mind (Construct)
2) Lews Therin and Rand are two different people (2 soulers)
3) Lews Therin and Rand are both unique and real personalities of the same Soul (Real)

In the books,
1 turned out to be what Rand thought Semirhage's comments ment
2 turned out to be how Rand incorrectly thought in reaction
3 turned out to be Mins' statement

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 07:05 PM
1) Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's mind (Construct)
2) Lews Therin and Rand are two different people (2 soulers)
3) Lews Therin and Rand are both unique and real personalities of the same Soul (Real)
I think that might be the problem, honestly - you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy in your own mind. 1) and 3) aren't actually contradictory, because you're slightly misphrasing 1) - I don't believe Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's mind. I believe that a voice of Lews Therin that can talk to Rand is a construct of Rand's mind. The soul is the same, the memories are true memories - Construct theory only proposes a mechanism by which those memories are translated into a "distinct personality" separate from Rand's.

Terez
10-30-2009, 07:09 PM
Another good way of expressing the difference between the real and construct factions, and this involves arguments that both Sodas and Isa have used:

1. The apparent separateness of Rand and Lews Therin was a psychological disorder.

2. It wasn't a psychological disorder, because Lews Therin from the past was actually present in Rand's head, which doesn't make any sense, but since it's fantasy RJ can do whatever he wants to.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 07:23 PM
I believe that a voice of Lews Therin that can talk to Rand is a construct of Rand's mind.

Right, I'm fully aware of what you're saying.

But I'm telling you, Rand creating a voice in his own mind makes him by definition insane. It would be nothing more than a "trick of the mind." This is exactly what Rand is saying to Min.

"Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind

And that is what the Construct theory was supposed to be:

This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself.

But Rand rejected that. And that is definately not what he was thinking at the end of tGS. He was thinking like Min, that they were the same man.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 07:49 PM
But I'm telling you, Rand creating a voice in his own mind makes him by definition insane. It would be nothing more than a "trick of the mind." This is exactly what Rand is saying to Min.

But Rand rejected that. And that is definately not what he was thinking at the end of tGS. He was thinking like Min, that they were the same man.
I'm so proud of you, you're getting so close! :D

That is exactly what I'm saying. Rand was not a sane person. He was talking to himself, arguing with himself, etc. He was a total nutterbutter. And in the end of tGS, he realized this. That's what I mean by "breakthrough."

The only thing that makes this even a little tricky is that the thing that triggered the madness was an external stimulus* - the introduction of memories from a past life.




* I know, technically it was an internal stimulus. In this case, the proper terminology would only lead to more confusion. ;)

Terez
10-30-2009, 07:55 PM
Sodas, what Rand was saying there is that he thought Semirhage meant that the memories were just insanity. That's obvious from his next statements, about how the memories really are real (that's his proof that Semirhage was wrong). No one on the construct side has ever argued that the memories were just 'tricks' or 'insanity'.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 10:13 PM
You know full well that Semirhage was talking about voices. Rand is consumed with what Semirhage's said during her capture at the end of Knife of Dreams. There is no way in hades that Semirhage was saying Rand was insane because of memories.

That is a farce of a post and you should be ashamed.

Semirhage was wrong, and so are you.

Terez
10-30-2009, 10:16 PM
I know what Semirhage was talking about, even though she didn't. I'm just saying that Rand's 'proof' that she was wrong was that the memories were real, so Rand obviously took it to mean that she was talking about everything Lews Therin, not just the 'voice'.

I think everyone else understands that, though, so if you don't get it this time, I give up.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 10:29 PM
I'm so proud of you, you're getting so close! :D

That is exactly what I'm saying. Rand was not a sane person. He was talking to himself, arguing with himself, etc. He was a total nutterbutter. And in the end of tGS, he realized this. That's what I mean by "breakthrough."

The only thing that makes this even a little tricky is that the thing that triggered the madness was an external stimulus* - the introduction of memories from a past life.




* I know, technically it was an internal stimulus. In this case, the proper terminology would only lead to more confusion. ;)

Well, fine, if you agree with Semirhage that Rand was insane then so be it.

But Rand clearly didn't believe her. He believed Min. As do I.

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 10:46 AM
Well, fine, if you agree with Semirhage that Rand was insane then so be it.

But Rand clearly didn't believe her. He believed Min. As do I.
... So you're gonna believe the insane guy when he says he's not insane? :D

And how exactly do you figure that Min agreed Rand was sane?Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things?

Sodas
10-31-2009, 12:21 PM
... So you're gonna believe the insane guy when he says he's not insane?

He wasn't insane at the end of tGS,

He realized – somehow – that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

Rand says that completely sane. Even if you believe construct-theory, at that moment you believe Rand is having a "breakthrough" and believe that what he is thinking is true, that LTT is really gone.

Right? Or am I confused?

Besides, why mock something that you need for your case. I absolutely don't believe everything Rand says, because he is confused. But he's not insane.

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 01:05 PM
He wasn't insane at the end of tGS,

Rand says that completely sane. Even if you believe construct-theory, at that moment you believe Rand is having a "breakthrough" and believe that what he is thinking is true, that LTT is really gone.

Right? Or am I confused?
I don't know if you are, but now I am. :p

Rand has been crazy for a long time. Semirhage said he was insane, and at the time, he was insane (even though he didn't think he was). Min thought he was insane, and at the time, he was insane (even though he didn't think he was). At the end of tGS, he had a breakthrough, and now he's (more or less) sane.

So, to sum up... huh?

Besides, why mock something that you need for your case. I absolutely don't believe everything Rand says, because he is confused. But he's not insane.
Apparently that is (one significant place) where we differ. I completely think Rand was crazy. But now, he's got better.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 01:29 PM
Why do I think Min agrees Rand is sane?

"Yes you are. There are things going on in there, behind those Aiel eyes of yours. Rand, do you think I will stop loving you because of what you hear?
"You'll be fightended."
"Oh," she said, folding her arms. "So I'm a fragile flower, am I?"
He opened his mouth, struggling for words, in the way he once had. Back when he'd been nothing more than a sheepherder on an adventure. "Min, I know you're strong. You know I do."
"Then trust me to be strong enough to bear what is inside you," she said. "We can't just pretend nothing has happened." She forced herself onward. "The taint left marks on you. I know it did. But if you can't share it with me, who can you share it with?"
She laid a hand on his arm as he passed, stopping him. "Tell me."
"You'll think I'm mad."
She snorted. "I already think you're a wool-headed fool. Can it be much worse than that?"
pg.242

Sodas
10-31-2009, 02:16 PM
Apparently that is (one significant place) where we differ. I completely think Rand was crazy. But now, he's got better.

She turned me into a newt!

http://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/holygrail027.jpg

It got better.

Hehe, but seriously the point I'm making with referencing Monte Python is that just because you say something magically happened, and then saying it was magically undone as well, makes no sense.


Bela, if you believe Rand is insane, why is anything Rand thinks evidence of anything? Both scenes, that you claim are the strongest evidence, are in Rand's POV. So why believe any of that? Rand is completely unreliable by your logic.

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Why do I think Min agrees Rand is sane?
Good cherry-picking there, buddy. But let's continue the quote right where you left off, shall we?He regarded her, and some of the tension left his face. He sat down on the edge of the bed, sighing softly. But it was progress.

"Semirhage was right," Rand said. "I hear... things. A voice. The voice of Lews Therin, the Dragon. He speaks to me and responds to the world around me. Sometimes, he tries to seize saidin from me. And... and sometimes he succeeds. He's wild, Min. Insane. But the things he can do with the One Power are amazing."

He started off into the distance. Min shivered. Light! He left the voice in his head wield the One Power? What did that mean? That he let the mad part of his brain take control? - p.242
So, I believe you were trying to argue that Min doesn't think Rand is mad? ;)

Hehe, but seriously the point I'm making with referencing Monte Python is that just because you say something magically happened, and then saying it was magically undone as well, makes no sense.
Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it makes no sense. Anyway, there was no "magically" about it - it was a process. Which I've stated and detailed several times in the last few days.

Bela, if you believe Rand is insane, why is anything Rand thinks evidence of anything? Both scenes, that you claim are the strongest evidence, are in Rand's POV. So why believe any of that? Rand is completely unreliable by your logic.
False dichotomy. Rand is crazy /= Rand is completely unreliable.

Anyway, we have access to Rand's thoughts. We are perfectly capable of disagreeing with his personal interpretations of those thoughts.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 04:36 PM
She doesn't know what to think. That is why it was a question.

But it was already clear that she believes Rand is sane, and there is a taint created voice in his head that is mad. But that voice is real, a gift from the Taint.

Terez
10-31-2009, 04:50 PM
I don't think she believes Rand is 'sane' - she just believes he's not hopelessly insane. And she believes that his memories are something natural, not a product of insanity, but that Rand's reaction to them is illogical, from the perspective of high philosophy anyway.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't think she believes Rand is 'sane' - she just believes he's not hopelessly insane.

Ok. That's a fine destinction.

And she believes that his memories are something natural

But this is not true.

"The Taint left it's marks on you. I know it did."

The Gathering Storm - A place to begin Pg. 242

And she believes the voice comes from the Taint.

"It's done now, Rand," she said, holding him close. "Whatever this voice is, it won't grow any worse. Saidin is cleansed."

the Gathering Storm - A place to begin Pg. 243




When Rand later responds...
"I don't care what Cadsuane said," he snarled. "She is my advisor, and she gives advice. Only advice. I am the Dragon Reborn, and I will decide how we fight." He stopped, taking a deep breath. "Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."
He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews THerin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."
...It's pretty clear that Rand is convinced that the taint is what gave Rand access to LTT's voice.

The memories are all fine and dandy to have, but the voice itself knows things that Rand does not. That is why he figures the voice is from the Taint, and it will help him beat the Dark One. To which, Min seems to agree.

The point is : both Rand and Min know the voice comes from the Taint. The Taint created LTT. Not Rand.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 01:08 AM
The memories are all fine and dandy to have, but the voice itself knows things that Rand does not. That is why he figures the voice is from the Taint, and it will help him beat the Dark One. To which, Min seems to agree.
Hm. But the memories also "know" things that Rand does not. So, why should there be a distinction made here?

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:29 AM
The taint gave him the memories, not the voice. Also:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Oh, Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.

It did not matter. Rand suppressed the sound of the man crying, pushed it down to a faint noise on the edge of hearing. He was certain that he was right. But who was the fellow? A Darkfriend, for sure, but not one of the Forsaken. Lews Therin knew their faces as well as he knew his own, and now Rand did, too. A sudden thought made him grimace. How aware of him was the other man? Ta’veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how. Lews Therin certainly had never mentioned knowing - their “conversations” were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly - and nothing had drifted across from him on the subject. At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how. but no one had found him that way since they had died. Could this link be used in the same fashion? They could all be in danger. More danger than usual, as if the usual were not enough. Rand knows things - the 'voice' rarely tells him anything useful.

Rand also admits the possibility of what Min claimed - that it was Rand who knew these things, not some other person:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin (p. 244)

"I don't care what Cadsuane said," he snarled. "She is my advisor, and she gives advice. Only advice. I am the Dragon Reborn, and I will decide how we fight." He stopped, taking a deep breath. "Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."

He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."Rand seems to have it almost figured out here. :)

Sodas
11-01-2009, 01:33 AM
Hm. But the memories also "know" things that Rand does not. So, why should there be a distinction made here?

Because Rand doesn't have all the memories. He needs the LTT voice to tell him how to beat the DO.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:34 AM
But this is not true.
But it is true:
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

She walked over and sat next to him. "Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before.
The ending makes it clear that she was right - Rand and Lews Therin were not two men, and never had been.

And she believes the voice comes from the Taint.
From the context, it's easy to determine that she believes Rand's interpretation of the memories is influenced by the taint, not that she believes another man is in his head.

If the taint had given Rand the 'voice', then he wouldn't have gotten rid of it so easily. He got rid of it so easily because it was a psychological problem that he overcame.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:35 AM
Because Rand doesn't have all the memories. He needs the LTT voice to tell him how to beat the DO.
No, he doesn't. He needs Lews Therin's MEMORIES to beat the Dark One. The voice was just getting in the way. So, it's a good thing he got rid of it...and a good thing he doesn't actually need it to defeat the Dark One. ;)

Sodas
11-01-2009, 01:12 AM
If the taint had given Rand the 'voice', then he wouldn't have gotten rid of it so easily.

What do you call a couple of strawmen?

First off, I never said it was easy.

Rand cleansed Saidin. Hardly an "easy" job. And then he reintegrated with all his past lives, not just LTT's. Not easy for him mentally, since Semirhage almost convinces him that he is insane (ie. Semirhage is preaching your old theory that he was just regular old crazy).

Secondly, I never said Rand got rid of Lews Therin's voice.

The voice got rid of itself.

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 01:21 AM
Because Rand doesn't have all the memories. He needs the LTT voice to tell him how to beat the DO.

How could LTT tell Rand how to beat the DO when he himself didn't know hot to defeat the DO? LTT's plan was flawed. So was the female Aes Sedai's plan. The AoL Aes Sedai couldn't figure out the correct method of sealing the DO.

As such, the voice in Rand's head can not, and obviously will not tell Rand how to seal the DO properly.

Especially because we won't be hearing from the voice any more.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:22 AM
What do you call a couple of strawmen? Sodas's posts?

First off, I never said it was easy. I did. And really, it wasn't easy....but if the taint had given him the voice, he'd never have gotten rid of it, since the effects of the taint don't go away.

Rand cleansed Saidin. Hardly an "easy" job. And then he reintegrated with all his past lives, not just LTT's. News flash: the Cleansing happened 3 books ago. It did not cause reintegration.

Secondly, I never said Rand got rid of Lews Therin's voice.

The voice got rid of itself. 1. There is no difference - Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, and NEVER HAVE BEEN. That is said straight out in the book.

2. You said he needs the 'voice' to beat the Dark One. If that was true, he'd be screwed, because the voice is gone.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 07:24 AM
How could LTT tell Rand how to beat the DO when he himself didn't know hot to defeat the DO? LTT's plan was flawed. So was the female Aes Sedai's plan. The AoL Aes Sedai couldn't figure out the correct method of sealing the DO.

Part of LTT's problem I suspect was that most of the forces of the light did not have a lot of experience being at SG so their info about the place and the DO's effect ont he world would come second hand from spies and captured prisoners.

LTT's plan might not have worked but if Rand can now access his past memories and his experiences/skills/learning that he had as LTT he may be able to work out a new plan based on the what happened the last time he was at SG.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 05:53 PM
I did. And really, it wasn't easy....but if the taint had given him the voice, he'd never have gotten rid of it, since the effects of the taint don't go away.

Seriously, did you just ignore Isabel's post entirely?

-Proof number 2: Rand feels more stable and reintegrated into TAR, while he is in the dream. In the dream he doesn’t hear LTT’s voice. This coincides with what we know of Birgitte. That the heroes in TAR are completely reintegrated.

Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort, Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin’s memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable – somehow- here in this place where else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly of course, but better than they had in recent memory.
(A place to begin 237)

He’s inside my head. He was gone during the dream. But he’s back now. (A place to begin, page 241)

If the voice of LTT isn’t part of the LTT personality and is a construct, why would it disappear in TAR while Rand is dreaming? He constructed the voice himself, so it should be there. The voice would have had nothing to do with the LTT personality from the past.

While if it is part of the LTT personality from the age of legends than it is logical that Rand can’t hear the voice while dreaming into TAR. It is than a part of him, as it should be.

What Isabel didn't say, but I will, was that the Taint caused the voice and it can be proven by one simple fact :

In the Dream, we know that it is just the "mind" of a person. And in it, there is only one mind for Rand/LTT/Dragon Soul.

What is the difference? The body. The taint infested body.

My conclussion? The Taint was what was holding Rand back from integrating into all his prior self's. Without the Tainted body, Rand could be "whole."

Meanwhile, you and the bragger core, have yet to make any serious attempt to answer why a constructed LTT would disappear in the Dream.

News flash: the Cleansing happened 3 books ago. It did not cause reintegration.

Oh my, 3 books ago! How could something that many months ago be unrelated to what is disturbing Rand?!

Well, there is Chapter 1, where Rand finally realizes that this loss of control is directly related to when he cleansed Saidin.
Light! he thought. I'm losing control. Half the time, I don't know which voice is mine and which is his. This was supposed to get better when I cleansed saidin! I was supposed to be safe...
but it was getting worse. Therefore, we can conclude that the Cleansing caused Rand to integrate with all prior selfs, including the LTT voice in his mind.

Even after that, both Min and Rand are convinced the Cleansing of the Taint and the voice are interrelated.
"Then trust me to be strong enough to bear what is inside you," she said. "We can't just pretend nothing has happened." She forced herself onward. "The taint left marks on you. I know it did. But if you can't share it with me, who can you share it with?"
And he thinks it just won't get worse,

"It's done now, Rand," she said, holding him close. "Whatever this voice is, it won't grow any worse. Saidin is cleansed."
the Gathering Storm - A place to begin Pg. 243
And of course, Rand responds,

"I don't care what Cadsuane said," he snarled. "She is my advisor, and she gives advice. Only advice. I am the Dragon Reborn, and I will decide how we fight." He stopped, taking a deep breath. "Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."
He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews THerin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."


1. There is no difference - Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, and NEVER HAVE BEEN. That is said straight out in the book.

Oh, everyone agree's that Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, and NEVER HAVE BEEN (I don't know about the yelling though),

But we also agree that Gaidal Cain and the Gaidal Cain before that are not two men, they are the same man.

So what is your point?

2. You said he needs the 'voice' to beat the Dark One. If that was true, he'd be screwed, because the voice is gone.

Bela's question refered to that juncture in the book, during the conversation with Min.

At that point in time, Rand had already made references to not wanting to be rid of Lews Therin so that he can figure out how to seal the Bore in Chapter 5.

Oh, Light, Rand thought with despair. I'm losing myself. Losing myself in him.
The most terrifying part was that Rand could no longer make himself wish to banish Lews Therin. Lews Therin had known a way to seal the Bore, if imperfectly, but Rand had no idea how to approach the task. The saftey of the world might depend on the memories of a dead man.

Chapter 5, A Tale of Blood Pg.103

And of course, Rand at the end of his debate with Min, spelled out for her that he planned to use the voice to defeat the Dark One.

He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, The Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."

That was the time frame of the question. The voice wasn't gone.

This is why, after the conversation with Min, Lews Therin tells Rand in Ch. 22, The Last That Could be Done, exactly what he knows that will help Rand beat the Dark One.

She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.
She? Rand asked.
The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.
Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing...
....
Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used Saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought

After he gave Rand that hint, he didn't need LTT anymore. So yet again, you are attacking a strawman Terez. You just weren't following the conversation or books.

Terez
11-01-2009, 05:58 PM
It took you long enough to make a post. You've been working on that since yesterday?

It's still full of rubbish. I think it's obvious to pretty much everyone that it's rubbish, so I don't really feel like responding (I might later).

Also, I did already respond to the point about Tel'aran'rhiod. It has nothing to do with the reintegration, and nothing to do with the taint - Lews Therin was also gone from his head when he killed Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod. It's the real'ers who have been insisting all these years that Lews Therin tried to take over Rand's body there - the constructors knew better.

Also, you should probably credit BS for quotes from TGS, seeing as how he wrote most of it.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 06:11 PM
So, Sodas, are you now saying that the voice was a product of the Taint, instead of being LTT's voice?

Sodas
11-01-2009, 06:16 PM
So, Sodas, are you now saying that the voice was a product of the Taint, instead of being LTT's voice?

Both.

Yes, it was a product of the Taint.

Yes, it is LTT's voice (or at least an authentic replica - I can agree with WH there).

But Rand did not construct LTT because he was crazy. This book is proof that Callandor's theory is wrong.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 06:26 PM
blah, blah, blah, blah, rubbish, blah, blah, blah, rubbish, blah, blah,...

lol @ this

Also, I did already respond to the point about Tel'aran'rhiod. It has nothing to do with the reintegration, and nothing to do with the taint - Lews Therin was also gone from his head when he killed Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Comparing what Rand did in the flesh in TAR to Rand's Dream? Sigh. Terez. Two different things.

To prove my point: It's not TAR. From Chapter 15, Pg. 234-235

"This place felt different from the dream world, and oddly familiar. He looked down the hallway; it was so long that it vanished into shadows, walls broken by doors at intervals, the wood dry and cracked. Yes ... he thought, seizing at a memory. I have been here before, but not in a long time.

"The name is irrelevant," Rand said angrily. "You are dead, and this is just a dream."
"Just a dream," Moridin said, chuckling. "Yes."

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 08:35 PM
But Rand did not construct LTT because he was crazy. This book is proof that Callandor's theory is wrong.
Well, you're kinda right. The creation of the "voice" was a function of Rand's madness, not a product of it. ;)

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:49 PM
Comparing what Rand did in the flesh in TAR to Rand's Dream? Sigh. Terez. Two different things. I think it was pretty obviously Tel'aran'rhiod, just like all of the early dreams with Ba'alzamon were...same 'ambient light', and the fact that the 'pieces of himself' (in reference to Lews Therin) 'fit together better'....and it is also obvious that Lews Therin is gone from Rand's head when he battles Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod.

As for being there in the flesh vs. being there in the dream...Birgitte said it was pretty much the same, except that you can do less when you're there in the flesh (just like you can do less if you're there in the afterlife). She went there in the dream and noticed that it was the same as it had been before she got ripped out.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 09:07 PM
Well, you're kinda right. The creation of the "voice" was a function of Rand's madness, not a product of it. ;)

Lol. Well, that is not what we were arguing before.

Callandor's theory called for "voice" being the product of Rand's own madness. It was supposed to be "counter-intuitive" because Rand had created it all in his head because he was denying his own emotions.

But it wasn't. It was the Taint breaking down Rand's barriers between lives. The result before the Taint was cleansed was a voice of a mad LTT. Once the Taint was gone, LTT became more and more sane, but at the same time he integrated with Rand. Rand didn't want to accept this because Semirhage told him it was unnatural, which drove Rand to be hard, and eventually strike out at Tam. Rand was convinced that he was going insane again, and he was willing to die before he destroyed the world again.

But he wasn't insane. It was just the effects of the Taint. Hence, Callandor's theory was wrong.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 09:08 PM
I think it was pretty obviously Tel'aran'rhiod,

:rolleyes:


"This place felt different from the dream world, and oddly familiar. He looked down the hallway; it was so long that it vanished into shadows, walls broken by doors at intervals, the wood dry and cracked. Yes ... he thought, seizing at a memory. I have been here before, but not in a long time.

"The name is irrelevant," Rand said angrily. "You are dead, and this is just a dream."
"Just a dream," Moridin said, chuckling. "Yes."

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:12 PM
And? It probably felt different because it was at Shayol Ghul, but I somehow doubt it was just an ordinary dream. And if it was, then apparently the same thing applies to regular dreams as Tel'aran'rhiod. Birgitte noticed it when she returned to Tel'aran'rhiod, and Rand noticed it in the regular dream (which I still think was Tel'aran'rhiod).

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:15 PM
Lol. Well, that is not what we were arguing before.
To be honest, I can't keep track of what we were arguing before. ;) But this, at least, is how I actually believe it happened.

But he wasn't insane. It was just the effects of the Taint. Hence, Callandor's theory was wrong.
No, no, no, you've misunderstood. According to Callandor's theory, Rand was insane because of what the taint did to him. To wit, taint -> barrier degradation -> memory leakage from a past life (LTT's) -> denial that these memories are really Rand's -> crazy.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 09:21 PM
And? It probably felt different because it was at Shayol Ghul

So now you are saying that Rand visited Shayol Ghul in TAR....

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:33 PM
Eh, Shayol Ghul is one of those murky places that seems like Tel'aran'rhiod even in the real world, and it seems as though Moridin can access it in Tel'aran'rhiod and bring other people there. Me and Dom have discussed this before, I think.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:43 PM
So now you are saying that Rand visited Shayol Ghul in TAR....
Was that ever actually in doubt? The sky that Rand sees outside Ishy's balcony is the same sky that is seen from inside the Pit of Doom.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 09:49 PM
No, no, no, you've misunderstood. According to Callandor's theory, Rand was insane because of what the taint did to him.

Look Bela, according to Callandor's theory, Rand was insane because he created LTT from his suppressed emotions.

This suppression just creates a need to express them if Rand will not accept them of his own. Lews Therin is an expression of Rands needs in this manner.
Lews Therin is by and large two symbiotic points:

1. Rand has suppressed many things that Lews Therin then expresses.

This was the core of their thinking. That is what separated Callandor's theory. The belief that Rand just a regular old crazy man who couldn't accept the Taint was driving him mad.

But that isn't what happened.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 09:52 PM
Was that ever actually in doubt? The sky that Rand sees outside Ishy's balcony is the same sky that is seen from inside the Pit of Doom.

Oh, I'm not debating that it could have been Shayol Ghul.

But considering you can't reach TAR in the Blight, and Shayol Ghul is in the Blight, you technically shouldn't be able to reach it in TAR. This is why I say it was what Rand figured it to be, a dream.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Look Bela, according to Callandor's theory, Rand was insane because he created LTT from his suppressed emotions.
You're cherrypicking again. As I already said in the post you quoted, Rand had "suppressed emotions" because he was trying to deal (or rather, not deal) with the LTT memories seeping into his head.

But considering you can't reach TAR in the Blight, and Shayol Ghul is in the Blight, you technically shouldn't be able to reach it in TAR.
To be blunt - where the hell did you pull that tidbit from?

a) SG is not in the Blight, it's above it, in the Blasted Lands.
b) No one ever said you couldn't reach TAR in the Blight. Rhuidean and stedding are the only exceptions stated.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 10:02 PM
You're cherrypicking again. As I already said in the post you quoted, Rand had "suppressed emotions" because he was trying to deal (or rather, not deal) with the LTT memories seeping into his head.

Not cherrypicking, I'm telling you what the debate was.

And like I said before as well, it wasn't just LTT's memories seeping into his head. It was the voice too. Rand didn't make that up. That is why Callandor is wrong.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:08 PM
Was that ever actually in doubt? The sky that Rand sees outside Ishy's balcony is the same sky that is seen from inside the Pit of Doom. He's saying it wasn't Tel'aran'rhiod, but a normal dream. But that doesn't fit, for a lot of reasons...

Also, you could say that grief was the cause of Rand being crazy, too much pressures on his shoulders, the taint, the added stress of maintaining the construct and having a divided/blocked consciousness in general....hard to draw lines there. The point is that Rand=Lews Therin, and the 'voice' expresses his suppressed thoughts and emotions, whether they have anything to do with Lews Therin's memories or not.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 10:14 PM
He's saying it wasn't Tel'aran'rhiod, but a normal dream.

I didn't say it was a normal dream. I said it wasn't TAR. Or at least, it wasn't the normal TAR where everyone interacts. It was just between Rand and Moridin which could be considered a shared dream of a sort.

But you still haven't address the fact that in Caemlyn, Rand fought Rahvin in TAR while in the Flesh. That is something different than being there just in spirit.

These are two totally different situations and your explanation simply does not apply here Terez.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:15 PM
I did address that, actually. And I pointed out that Lews Therin was gone from his head while he was there, also. Rand noted that.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 10:17 PM
I did address that, actually. And I pointed out that Lews Therin was gone from his head while he was there, also. Rand noted that.

So you think Rand was having a conversation with Moridin while he (Rand) was in the flesh? No.

That is why your explanation doesn't work.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:20 PM
I said he was there in the flesh when he fought Rahvin, not when he talked to Moridin. Seriously, Sodas....I think you need to go to bed and let your brain rest for a little while.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Not cherrypicking, I'm telling you what the debate was.
I was referring to you only quoting part of what I said, when the next sentence of the quote would have specifically addressed your objections.

And like I said before as well, it wasn't just LTT's memories seeping into his head. It was the voice too. Rand didn't make that up. That is why Callandor is wrong.
With all of these proclamations, you're starting to sound like Terez. ;) And as I like to point out to her every few days - stating that it's a fact doesn't make it any less your belief.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 10:54 PM
With all of these proclamations, you're starting to sound like Terez.

Them's fightin' words!

Sodas
11-01-2009, 10:55 PM
With all of these proclamations, you're starting to sound like Terez. And as I like to point out to her every few days - stating that it's a fact doesn't make it any less your belief.

Lol! Well, that is something I certainly wouldn't want!

We are looking at this from different views. I do apologize if it seems that I'm trying to turn everything into fact, but I'm just trying to express our side.

For instance, you seem to be taking affront to when I said the Taint seeped the voice of LTT into Rand's head as well? Well, I based that upon the quotes I already provided,


He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, The Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."

I just want to summarize it because sometimes a long post doesn't make as much sense.




I said he was there in the flesh when he fought Rahvin, not when he talked to Moridin.

Exactly. Two different situations.

One when he was in the flesh in TAR fighting Rahvin.
The other when he was dreaming.

Your explanation doesn't fit the circumstances.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 11:04 PM
Lol! Well, that is something I certainly wouldn't want!

We are looking at this from different views. I do apologize if it seems that I'm trying to turn everything into fact, but I'm just trying to express our side.
Heh, no worries, man. If I thought we couldn't continue to be civil about this, I would have stopped long since.

For instance, you seem to be taking affront to when I said the Taint seeped the voice of LTT into Rand's head as well? Well, I based that upon the quotes I already provided;

He glanced down at her. "For that ... I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or ... I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, The Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."
This is yet another place where we disagree. Whether he understands it or not (and clearly he doesn't), Rand has no actual need for LTT's voice - the memories would serve just as well.

One when he was in the flesh in TAR fighting Rahvin.
The other when he was dreaming.
That's kind of her point, though, I think. There were two different circumstances in which LTT's voice disappeared. Any theory that attempts to explain why LTT vanished in the latter circumstance, should also attempt to explain the earlier circumstance. Seems to be stretching coincidence, otherwise.

Terez
11-01-2009, 11:10 PM
Hmm, maybe I'm the one that needs sleep....

Sodas
11-02-2009, 12:19 AM
This is yet another place where we disagree. Whether he understands it or not (and clearly he doesn't), Rand has no actual need for LTT's voice - the memories would serve just as well.

Ok, yes, that is where we disagree. I can't help but say I think that the book shows us that the memories didn't do just as well. Even when Rand couldn't tell the difference between his memories and LTT's, he didn't have any memories of the actual sealing. I thought the book was making the point that Rand with LTT's memories desperately needed to know how to win. The memories weren't enough.

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:47 AM
You're arguing that he needs the voice to defeat the Dark One....but the voice is gone? That makes no sense. Because all he's got now is the memories....and now that the voice is no longer in the way, he's got ALL the memories.

Sodas
11-02-2009, 01:01 AM
You're arguing that he needs the voice to defeat the Dark One

No. I'm arguing he needed the voice to defeat the Dark One. Past tense. I already pointed out the quote where I showed LTT told Rand why the 1st attempt failed.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 02:38 AM
okay, so yeah. Using the phrase 'personality construct' doesn't sit well with me.... and yet I may be less sure of my thoughts after reading these arguments than before.

we can all agree that the taint poisons the body and makes men less rational, yes?
I'm thinking that things like the Old Blood establish a precedent that knowledge can transfer from root souls/prior incarnations without tainted saidin.
could it be that LTT, already two ways mad (once from backlash and once from the stress of realizing what he did) would have already messed Rand up a little even without the taint? and that continuing taint kept him off balance? plus all of the torture and stress Rand undergoes. Rand's got three good reasons to be madder than a hatter but he clings to sanity with everything he's got. he fails partially. His particular madness manifests not as some caricature of LTT to be carried around and used as scapegoat for all of the acts he can't accept for himself but by not being able to realize sooner that LTT was real and should be accepted and/or forgiven.
under all the right guidance, I think that Rand & LTT would have both been present no matter what else (besides being born and hitting late adolescence) happened storywise but that they would have integrated sooner. I think they were both strong and legitimate personalities that were too evenly matched by circumstances for one to be subsumed into the other. Rand had the upper hand most often because this is actually his body/life/turn/whatever but LTT had leverage from the fact that he had lived so long (ego * age = strength of personality) and Rand really needed LTT's knowledge from the beginning just to survive so he didn't really fight as hard or often to banish him as he might have.
did i make sense just now? I'm sleepy. let me know. I'm not sure if I said what I wanted to or not but I'm sorta done anyway...

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 11:34 AM
(Tried to make this post last night, and my entire cable connection crapped out. Stoopid Comcast.)

Ok, yes, that is where we disagree. I can't help but say I think that the book shows us that the memories didn't do just as well. Even when Rand couldn't tell the difference between his memories and LTT's, he didn't have any memories of the actual sealing. I thought the book was making the point that Rand with LTT's memories desperately needed to know how to win. The memories weren't enough.
And I would argue that the memories weren't enough only because Rand wouldn't allow himself full access to them - that pesky "denying that those memories are his" again. ;)

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Rand still doesn't have 100% recall of LTT's memories the next time we see him. Logically it would make sense that he would, but narratively speaking, it would probably be too easy. I'd be perfectly content to be wrong, though.

did i make sense just now? I'm sleepy. let me know. I'm not sure if I said what I wanted to or not but I'm sorta done anyway...
Yep, you made sense. I just don't happen to believe it worked that way. :)

Wunderwaffe
11-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Can anyone cite any instances where the voice actually gave Rand information he needed to solve some issue or overcome a certain obstacle? The vast majority of the time, the voice raved, moaned, cried, raged, or laughed in an insane manner.

Slowly he reached for saidinagain... And came against the shield, of course. The thing he had been seeking in any case. Slowly, ever so gently, he felt his way along it, to where a hard plane suddenly turned to six soft points.
Soft, Lews Therin said, panting. Because they are there. Sustaining the buffer. Hard when they knot. Nothing to be done when they are soft, but I can unravel the web if they knot it. With time. He paused so long Rand thought he was gone again, then he whispered, Are you real? And then he really was gone.
Gingerly Rand felt along the shield to the soft points. To six Aes Sedai. With time? If they tied it, which they had not so far in... What was it? Six days? Seven? Eight? No matter. He could not afford to wait too long. Every day was one closer to Tar Valon. Tomorrow, he would try to break through the barrier again; it had been like beating his hands against stone, but he had beaten with all his strength.

This is the closest I recall the voice aiding Rand. And it really doesn't give much assistance in this case. Feel free to cite more instances (if there are) of the voice giving Rand information he needs.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 04:05 PM
Ooo! Ooo! I remember what I was thinking!

The taint served as a barrier to mental integration. Otherwise things might have still been difficult, what with LTT being a Kinslayer and all, but death and Ishy's Healing had removed the Dark imposed insanity. He just would've had to forgive himself and move on. But the taint made him think he was Two, and LTT was already predisposed.....

It seems like unnecessary complexity to have or say that the Dragon soul's current mind created some construct based on it's last incarnation because of unacceptable memories. Is there some current psychological principle or theory that supports this kind of thing? Is personality fragmentation or are auditory hallucinations in today's society viewed as caused by personality constructs?

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 04:15 PM
It seems like unnecessary complexity to have or say that the Dragon soul's current mind created some construct based on it's last incarnation because of unacceptable memories. Is there some current psychological principle or theory that supports this kind of thing? Is personality fragmentation or are auditory hallucinations in today's society viewed as caused by personality constructs?
Auditory hallucinations, no - that's a unique and separate phenomenon. But, unless I'm misunderstanding your question completely, personality fragmentation pretty much is the subconscious construction of other personalities. Am I talking past the point here?

As for the memory question - MPD is a dissociative disorder, which by definition is the separation of one part of a person's memory from the rest. Repression is one of the handful of theories for why this happens, and is probably the best-known in terms of popular knowledge of the disorder.

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:25 PM
Ooo! Ooo! I remember what I was thinking!

The taint served as a barrier to mental integration. Otherwise things might have still been difficult, what with LTT being a Kinslayer and all, but death and Ishy's Healing had removed the Dark imposed insanity. He just would've had to forgive himself and move on. But the taint made him think he was Two, and LTT was already predisposed.....
The taint was cleansed 3 books ago - if that was the problem, then integration should have happened then. But RJ said that the cleansing didn't actually remove the effects of the taint that had already occurred. The fact that the integration was a psychological process screams that the 'voice' was a psychological problem in the first place.

Sodas
11-02-2009, 06:02 PM
Lord Bloodpath,

I think you got it right. To answer your question, there is no real world equivalent to what is described by the construction theory because no real world form of madness ever really fit Rand's symptoms. Some said it was a mix.


On the question of LTT's voice gaving valuable information, please look up and read Rand's conversation with LTT where LTT explains why the first attempt failed.


Lastly, to the point about what caused integration, I think that Rand's comments directly linking the cleansing to the deterioration of his self identity twice proves otherwise. 2 books ago, or not. That's a few months.

Terez
11-02-2009, 06:04 PM
That's a horribly weak connection, especially considering that RJ said the cleansing didn't fix anything that the taint had already done.

Sodas
11-02-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't believe the Cleansing actually cured or fixed what had been done by the Taint already.

But I do believe it allowed the Soul to fix itself, in doing so reintegrating the voice of Lews Therin back into the whole.

And yes, 2 direct quotes by Rand and one by Min, make it seem that the cause for reintegration was the Taint.

There is nothing that I've seen that makes it clear that it was mental construct beside a misunderstood quote. But feel free to share.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 06:28 PM
I don't believe the Cleansing actually cured or fixed what had been done by the Taint already.

But I do believe it allowed the Soul to fix itself, in doing so reintegrating the voice of Lews Therin back into the whole.

And yes, 2 direct quotes by Rand and one by Min, make it seem that the cause for reintegration was the Taint.

There is nothing that I've seen that makes it clear that it was mental construct beside a misunderstood quote. But feel free to share.Sodas, I'm really having a lot of trouble following your arguments. You say that LTT wasn't a Construct, but that he was "caused by the Taint." What does that mean? How was he "caused?"

And what do you mean that the Taint is causing his reintegration? Do you mean the Cleansing? How exactly are you suggesting Cleansing the Taint
allowed the soul to fix itself? What does one have to do with the other?

Forgive me if I missed a post or two here or there. I have trouble reading 900 pages of you and Terez vomiting on one another.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 07:42 PM
Some possibilities that occur to me:
a-integration was caused by introspection alone.
b-integration was caused by introspection plus saidin.
c-integration was caused by saidin alone.

We know that the taint has caused Rand debilitating nausea physically (that still affects him). what we're arguing here is what it did mentally. From the most abstract POV, madness is a loss of rationality. So then, what did this loss further cause in Rand?

some of us are saying it was a mental block and some are saying it was an artificial adjunct to his mind. one of these explanations seems simpler and fits the facts of the books better IMO. I'm not sure I'll have time to deconstruct the arguments with references and quotes, but I'll try later.

I think you're getting hung up on something Terez. The taint lessens your health. that manifests differently from physical and emotional perpectives and by individual person.
If I start chopping down trees in a forest, and then someone stops me, those trees I already got to are gone. Any creatures sheltered in those trees need new homes. The whole balance of water, wind and light penetration is messed up in there now. This could cause any number of problems depending on the size of the original forest, the longitude, altitude, etc. Or it could mean nothing much at all too.

In order to cleanse saidin, Rand chopped down a whole lotta trees that day. It's kind of surprising there were any trees left after. Those don't grow back overnight. Or over a few months. But hey, no more will be chopped or have been for a while... Except by those evil or stupid enough not to worry about costing Rand a few points of sanity.
Sometimes though, when you use the CK, your subconscious can do some funky things after it's been directed the right way by your newfound philosophical perspective. Maybe you cound even regrow a forest.
Nothing about that scene made me think that Rand purposely broke the cloud cover, he was just sort of drawing Power with no concrete plan.
I'm not really addressing whether Rand is fully mentally Healed now or not. It's quite possible from the description we saw. Obviously he's much better than he was.
As to whether LTT's voice was "real" or not, I don't think we can determine that by how helpful he was.... that way lay madness :p (or at least a lot more circular arguments.) but just to chuck it in there anyway, it was the LTT voice that talked Rand back from the Edge at the end.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 08:02 PM
Sodas and Terez are both right. This isn't an either/or scenario. Been suspecting that for a couple months now.
And that's all I'll say of that.

Though this book seems to give even more circumstantial evidence for Weird Harold's Rands Health = Randland's health theory/idea.

Terez
11-02-2009, 08:34 PM
BS confirmed that theory. And as to your previous statement... are you referring to the box? I'd say the box has been opened now. ;)

Sodas
11-02-2009, 10:12 PM
Sodas, I'm really having a lot of trouble following your arguments. You say that LTT wasn't a Construct, but that he was "caused by the Taint." What does that mean? How was he "caused?"


The Taint broke down the barriers between Rand's lives. This allowed for past memories and eventually the past voice of Rand's former incarnation. That is why I say it "caused" LTT's voice to enter Rand's mind.




And what do you mean that the Taint is causing his reintegration? Do you mean the Cleansing?

Yes. Sorry, I said it the first time but not the second. Hehe, rushing too much on my berry.

Just to repeat:
The cleansing caused reintegration between all the lives.

How exactly are you suggesting Cleansing the Taint

allowed the soul to fix itself?

Maybe. Maybe it's the body as well. He is the Dragon Reborn, The Champion of Light and Ta'varen.

All I'm suggesting it happened naturally because that is what the Pattern needed.

-I figure the voice and Rand were two distinct identities, one woolbrained and one mad, until the Cleansing.
-We have multiple quotes showing that Rand defined his own self identity as merging with the voice specifically after the Cleansing now in TGS
-We have a scene where without a taint infected body, Rand speaks with LTT's voice
-We also have the improvement in the sanity of Lews Therin voice to the point where Rand finally can have the critical conversation with him

The evidence clearly suggests that the cleansing helped LTT's voice regain sanity. And once he was sane enough to realize he was dead, and reborn in Rand, he no longer had a purpose to keep himself separate from Rand.




Updated from earlier.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 11:58 PM
So my opinion was that without the Taint's constant trying to corrupt Rand, Rand's soul had to reintegrate.
I guess I'm confused again, then. If it was just the taint that was keeping him from reintegrating, why did it take him three books to do so? And how do you account for the fact that RJ said that cleansing saidin would not undo any already-existing effects of the taint?

Terez
11-03-2009, 01:00 AM
I base that on the voice and Rand were two distinct identities until the Cleansing. How do you square that with the fact that Rand realized they were 'not two men, and never had been?'

We have multiple quotes showing that Rand defined his own self identity as merging with the voice specifically after the Cleansing. Not really. Maybe you should post the quotes so we can discuss them? Also, Rand took every single drop of the taint through his body when he cleansed saidin, so it's been believed by the barrier degradation folks for some time that the barrier blocking the memories was pretty much eradicated at that time, and constructors such as myself argued that Rand's psychological problems were the only thing standing in the way of reintegration at that point. Looks like we were right.

We also have the improvement in the sanity of Lews Therin voice to the point where Rand finally can have the critical conversation with him. This has only been recent. My opinion was that the cleansing helped LTT's voice regain sanity. Psychotic constructs work like this - it takes the nutty person quite a while to be able to 'build' it to the point that it's really substantial to them. You can see the progression of the 'voice' long before the Cleansing - in Lord of Chaos, you see Rand gradually develop the ability to have a 'conversation' with Lews Therin (which doesn't actually happen until he's in the box).

nameless
11-03-2009, 02:11 AM
I did address that, actually. And I pointed out that Lews Therin was gone from his head while he was there, also. Rand noted that.

Wait, can you post the quote where Rand notices the absence of LTT while fighting Rahvin? I don't have my copy of FOH on hand but I seem to remember a specific instance when Rahvin uses his control over the dreamworld to try unmaking Rand's body entirely and the Lews Therin personality reacts to defend his existence, with the result than Rand almost physically turns into LTT before he can regain control of the situation.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 02:23 AM
I guess I'm confused again, then. If it was just the taint that was keeping him from reintegrating, why did it take him three books to do so?

Cleansing happened on Saban 22, or March 8th.
Semirhage was captured Aine 25, or April 9th.

32 days.

Even in Crossroads, Rand complained that the gap between his voice and LTT was getting smaller.
It wasn't long after that Rand was in Arad Doman, wondering why he was merging with that voice in his head after he had Cleansed the Taint.


And how do you account for the fact that RJ said that cleansing saidin would not undo any already-existing effects of the taint?

Cleansing saidin itself didn't undo any already-existing effects of the taint. But it would have stopped Rand from taking in any more Taint.

What undid the effects of the Taint was ultimately the Soul and the body eventually healing themselves. At least, that is what makes the most sense. And why not? Rand is the Champion of Light and Ta'varen.

Terez
11-03-2009, 02:39 AM
Wait, can you post the quote where Rand notices the absence of LTT while fighting Rahvin? I don't have my copy of FOH on hand but I seem to remember a specific instance when Rahvin uses his control over the dreamworld to try unmaking Rand's body entirely and the Lews Therin personality reacts to defend his existence, with the result than Rand almost physically turns into LTT before he can regain control of the situation. What actually happened was this:
1. Rand starts fading. He surmises that it was due to a trap by Rahvin. However, it might well have been him thinking that he was glad to be rid of Lews Therin that caused him to fade. We know how much stray thoughts can affect reality in Tel'aran'rhiod, and though people's appearances don't generally change fundamentally, Rand has memories of at least two physical identities, so it's only natural for him to be different.
2. Rand freaks out and fights the trap (or the fading due to him essentially being happy to be rid of himself...whichever)...digging into past life memories for HOW to fight it. The fact that he uses Lews Therin's features to do this is perfectly natural.
3. Rand freaks out and assumes that Lews Therin is trying to take over, because what ACTUALLY happened doesn't even occur to him (because he thinks of Lews Therin as another man, which we now know for sure was fundamentally wrong).
4. Rand then concentrates on Rand's features to fight the Lews Therin ones, and subsequently realizes that he can do this to other things in Tel'aran'rhiod.

In the dream with Ishamael, Rand still had the memories of Lews Therin, but the 'voice' was gone. It's the same here - doesn't keep Rand from being confused about it, though.

As for where Rand notes that Lews Therin is gone from his head....note that he enters Tel'aran'rhiod right after weaving balefire:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

Balefire leaped from his hands, a brilliant white shaft streaking toward where that other bar had originated. The other failed even as his punched through the wall, leaving a purple afterimage fanning across his vision. He released his own flow. Had he done it finally?

Scrambling to his feet, he channeled Air, slamming ruined doors open so hard that the remnants ripped from the hinges. Inside, the room was empty. A sitting room, with chairs arrayed before a great marble fireplace. His balefire had taken a bite out of one of the arches leading to a small courtyard with a fountain, and another from one of the fluted columns along the walk beyond.

Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel – he knew now that was what he had done – into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side. In fact, if he had not known the way was there, if he could not have seen the weave of it, he might not have known. There before him were the same arches opening onto the same courtyard and fountain, the same columned walk. For an instant the neatly rounded holes his balefire had made in arch and column wavered, filled, then were holes again. Wherever that gateway led, it was to somewhere else, a reflection of the Royal palace as once it had been a reflection of the Stone of Tear. Vaguely he regretted not talking to Asmodean about it while he had the chance, but he had never been able to speak of that day to anyone. It did not matter. On that day he had carried Callandor, but the angreal in his pocket had already proved enough to harry Rahvin.

Stepping through quickly, he loosed the weave and hurried away across the courtyard as the gateway vanished. Rahvin would have felt that gate if he was close enough and trying. The fat little stone man did not mean he could stand and wait to be attacked.

No sign of life, except for himself and one fly. That was the way it had been in Tear, too. Stand-lamps in the hallways stood unlit, with pale wicks that had never seen a flame, yet even in what should have been the dimmest hall there was light, seemingly coming from everywhere and nowhere. Sometimes those lamps moved, too, and other things as well. Between one glance and the next a tall lamp might have moved a foot, a vase in a niche an inch. Little things, as if someone had shifted them in the time his eyes were away. Wherever this was, it was a strange place.

It came to him, as he trotted along another colonnade, sensing for Rahvin, that he had not heard the voice crying over Ilyena since he channeled balefire. Perhaps he had somehow chased Lews Therin out of his head.

Good. He stopped at the edge of one of the palace gardens. The roses and whitestar bushes looked as drought bedraggled as they would have in the real palace. On some of the white spires rising above the rooftops, the White Lion banner rippled, but which spire could change in the blink of an eye. Good, if I don't have to share my head with–

He felt odd. Insubstantial. He raised his arm, and stared. He could see the garden through coatsleeve and arm as through a mist. A mist that was thinning. When he glanced down, he could see the walk's paving stones through himself.

No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther–

I am Rand al'Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al'Thor.

He fought to picture himself in his own mind, struggled to make the image of what he saw in the mirror every day shaving, what he saw in a stand-mirror dressing. It was a frantic fight. He had never really looked at himself. The two images waxed and waned, the older dark-eyed man and the younger with blue-gray eyes. Slowly the younger image firmed, the older faded. Slowly his arm grew more solid. His arm, with the Dragon twined around it and the heron branded into his palm. There had been times he hated those marks, but now, even enclosed within the emotionless Void, he almost grinned to see them.

Why had Lews Therin tried to take him over? To make him into Lews Therin. He was sure that was who that dark-eyed man with the suffering face had been. Why now? Because he could in this place, whatever it was? Wait. It had been Lews Therin who shouted that adamant "no." Not an attack by Lews Therin. By Rahvin, and not using the Power. If the man had been able to do this back in Caemlyn, the real Caemlyn, he would have. It had to be some ability he had gained here. And if Rahvin had gained it, perhaps he had too. The image of himself had been what held him, brought him back.

He focused on the nearest rosebush, a thing a span high, and imagined it growing thin, foggy. Obediently, it melted away to nothing, but as soon as the picture in his mind was nothing, the rosebush was suddenly back, just as it had been.

Rand nodded coldly. It had limits, then. There were always limits and rules, and he did not know them here. But he knew the Power, as much as Asmodean had taught him and he had taught himself, and saidin was still in him, all the sweetness of life, all the corruption of death. Rahvin had to have seen him to attack. With the Power you had to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it was in relation to you down to a hair. Perhaps it was different here, but he did not think so. He almost wished Lews Therin had not gone silent again. The man might know this place and its rules. And no more Lews Therin for the rest of his time there. Further proof of construct theory...I think it's clear that he was fading because of his own thoughts, not because of a Rahvin trap, but other constructors have disagreed with me on this.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 03:31 AM
I'm sorry, but I believe nameless is correct. Rand thought that LTT's voice did appear in TAR while he was fighting Rahvin.

No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther–

I am Rand al'Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al'Thor.

He fought to picture himself in his own mind, struggled to make the image of what he saw in the mirror every day shaving, what he saw in a stand-mirror dressing. It was a frantic fight. He had never really looked at himself. The two images waxed and waned, the older dark-eyed man and the younger with blue-gray eyes. Slowly the younger image firmed, the older faded. Slowly his arm grew more solid. His arm, with the Dragon twined around it and the heron branded into his palm. There had been times he hated those marks, but now, even enclosed within the emotionless Void, he almost grinned to see them.

Why had Lews Therin tried to take him over? To make him into Lews Therin. He was sure that was who that dark-eyed man with the suffering face had been. Why now? Because he could in this place, whatever it was? Wait. It had been Lews Therin who shouted that adamant "no." Not an attack by Lews Therin. By Rahvin, and not using the Power. If the man had been able to do this back in Caemlyn, the real Caemlyn, he would have. It had to be some ability he had gained here. And if Rahvin had gained it, perhaps he had too. The image of himself had been what held him, brought him back.



This actually speaks against construct theory because it once again, fails to explain how LTT's voice appeared in Rand's mind while he was in the flesh in TAR, but not later in Rand's dream with Moridin.

Terez
11-03-2009, 03:57 AM
The pieces of himself fit together better there. Hence, no voice.

Of course, the 'voice' is just an illusion, because they were not two men, and NEVER HAD BEEN. Even in this scene. ;) It has been proven in TGS that this was not Lews Therin 'trying to take over' - it was all in Rand's head.

But Rand had just been getting the memories for a short time, and he had only realized where the memories were coming from 40 days previous, when he met with Lanfear in Rhuidean. He was a great deal more confused about the phenomenon in the beginning than he was toward the end. Again, it's all psychological. This totally explains the differences between the first scene and the second.

'Real' theory does not, because it somehow assumes that the dream is keeping Lews Therin away. By 'real' theory, the scene in The Fires of Heaven is a contradiction.

In any case, the 'voice' was obviously absent when Rand was in Tel'aran'rhiod to kill Rahvin, until Rand tried to think himself out of existence and had to bail. After that moment, it was gone again, until he left Tel'aran'rhiod. Why? Because the pieces of himself fit together better there. So much better that Rand subconsciously used Lews Therin's memories to fight his body fading away, and had a hard time convincing himself that he was not, in fact, Lews Therin. A very hard time. ;)

the_dead
11-03-2009, 04:35 AM
Has anyone read TGS and questioned if Brandon's writing stlye changed the feel for the LTT in Rands head. I believe Terez is right when she says Bradon is a constructor believer. I have been spending much time going through all the LTT stuff in TGS and it feels different for me. It seems more like a voice brought about by madness and not so much of a seperate person as it did. But how it all ends seems more like what would happen if LTT was real.

Terez
11-03-2009, 04:37 AM
Are you trying to suggest that BS changed what RJ intended? And the ending fits construct theory perfectly.

I think his portrayal of Lews Therin was one of the things in the book that made it hard to tell someone else was writing it. Lews Therin seems more 'real' early on when Rand is still utterly convinced that he's real. He becomes less convinced as the series goes on. Just like we all should have.

the_dead
11-03-2009, 04:46 AM
No, not at all. It just seems like it is different. Could be what you are saying. I am not convence though. For a construct theory to work in my opinion he would have to be suffering from madness. To just have a moment of understanding make it go away seems well ubsurd to me. If it was a a failed and mad LTT intruding into Rands head I can see how Rand and LTT could come peace and understand what it is all for. For LTT as much as Rand to come to grips with why they are and what they are meant to do. Alowwing LTT to rest and be a part of Rand. But with madness I can not see how there is a way to have understanding make him better is all.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 04:51 AM
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?Perhaps the reintegration coincided with the destruction of the Choedan Kal?
Maybe that's why the thing wasn't mentioned in the Prophecies: it would have made people try to destroy it, which would have led to all sorts of wrong consequences.

Terez
11-03-2009, 04:57 AM
Perhaps the reintegration coincided with the destruction of the Choedan Kal?
Maybe that's why the thing wasn't mentioned in the Prophecies: it would have made people try to destroy it, which would have led to all sorts of wrong consequences.
Even if that was possible.....that's an unbelievably weak argument. If you're going to be a Whitecloak, you could at least come up with something good. :rolleyes: But we know you're only being a Whitecloak so as to not make Emma cry...

But Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal after the reintegration happened. ;)

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:12 AM
No, not at all. It just seems like it is different. Could be what you are saying. I am not convence though. For a construct theory to work in my opinion he would have to be suffering from madness. BS confirmed that (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2530), just this very night. ;)

I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress). The qualifier 'in a way' is important, I think. He wasn't suffering from the kind of madness that's irreversible. His madness was almost completely due to the fact that he couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories, and therefore thought there was a voice in his head (like a madman), and the fact that he used the 'voice' to suppress all of his inconvenient thoughts and emotions.

To just have a moment of understanding make it go away seems well ubsurd to me. If it was a a failed and mad LTT intruding into Rands head I can see how Rand and LTT could come peace and understand what it is all for. For LTT as much as Rand to come to grips with why they are and what they are meant to do. Alowwing LTT to rest and be a part of Rand. But with madness I can not see how there is a way to have understanding make him better is all. Because the only thing really blocking him from integration was his denial of Lews Therin's memories as being his own. As the series progressed, it got harder for him to deny, but the Kinslaying was the one thing he was still unprepared to face, despite the fact that it should have been utmost clear to him that he was Lews Therin.

Once he faced that as his own memory, he tried to kill himself again.

Then he decided instead to find a reason to live. That was his peace - not 'Lews Therin's' peace, but Rand/Lews Therin's peace. They are one and the same, and always have been, despite Rand's massive efforts to disassociate himself from those memories. He accepted the memories as his own, faced their implications, and by doing that, removed the last thing standing between him and the rest of the memories.

We'll have a super-Rand on our hands in the next book, with no struggles involved when it comes to those memories. Everything Lews Therin knew, Rand now knows. I'm sure it won't be a cakewalk, but his problems will come from other areas, and he will be more equipped to deal with them.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 06:26 AM
but his problems will come from other areasEgwene.
and he will be more equipped to deal with them.Of course he will. :p

Terez
11-03-2009, 06:27 AM
*yawn*

Go play with Isa, Gonzo...

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 09:01 AM
I think the thing that tGS drove home for me is that Robert Jordan did a very meticulous and realistic job of crafting the Rand character. In real life someone doesn't go insane because their job sucks. They go insane because their job sucks and their wife is cheating on them and they spend all day sitting in traffic and they're stressed about their credit card builds and possibly because they have a biological disposition to insanity.

Rand wasn't mad because of the taint, or because of the memories or because of what Lews Therin did to Ilyena or because he was basically tapped on the shoulder and asked to save the world or because so many people are out to kill him. He was insane because of all of these things. The Lews Therin voice in his head was the mechanism he subconsciously created to deal with those things.

There was more to Lews Therin in Rand's head than the memories of the past life, though that was a big part of it. But the personality of the voice progressed over the last 12 books and became the depository for the things that Rand couldn't or wouldn't deal with. For example in the Gathering Storm, Lews Therin does a lot of whining about being in the box. That's a Rand memory, not a Lews Therin memory, but the voice is more concerned about it than Rand was. Also, once Rand goes to Cuendillar mode and balefires Graendal's fortress, he's given up on the "don't kill women" mantra, but Lews Therin is still buzzing about the list.

So in my view the voice is just insane Rand's coping mechanism for everything he couldn't deal with. The memories are just the biggest part of that.

EDIT: The voice never said, "Hi, I'm Lews Therin, nice to meet you." That's just the identity Rand assigned to it based on some of the memories.

1Powerslave
11-03-2009, 09:12 AM
I think the thing that tGS drove home for me is that Robert Jordan did a very meticulous and realistic job of crafting the Rand character. In real life someone doesn't go insane because their job sucks. They go insane because their job sucks and their wife is cheating on them and they spend all day sitting in traffic and they're stressed about their credit card builds and possibly because they have a biological disposition to insanity.

Rand wasn't mad because of the taint, or because of the memories or because of what Lews Therin did to Ilyena or because he was basically tapped on the shoulder and asked to save the world or because so many people are out to kill him. He was insane because of all of these things. The Lews Therin voice in his head was the mechanism he subconsciously created to deal with those things.

There was more to Lews Therin in Rand's head than the memories of the past life, though that was a big part of it. But the personality of the voice progressed over the last 12 books and became the depository for the things that Rand couldn't or wouldn't deal with. For example in the Gathering Storm, Lews Therin does a lot of whining about being in the box. That's a Rand memory, not a Lews Therin memory, but the voice is more concerned about it than Rand was. Also, once Rand goes to Cuendillar mode and balefires Graendal's fortress, he's given up on the "don't kill women" mantra, but Lews Therin is still buzzing about the list.

So in my view the voice is just insane Rand's coping mechanism for everything he couldn't deal with. The memories are just the biggest part of that.
Nice summation. I like it. Especially the part about LTT whining about the box when Rand is not, and citing the list.

Terez
11-03-2009, 09:17 AM
I think the thing that tGS drove home for me is that Robert Jordan did a very meticulous and realistic job of crafting the Rand character.
I agree.

Rand wasn't mad because of the taint, or because of the memories or because of what Lews Therin did to Ilyena or because he was basically tapped on the shoulder and asked to save the world or because so many people are out to kill him.
It was all of these things...but you said that later, so okay. The creation of the 'voice' was mainly fueled by Lews Therin's memories, though, as it gave him a name and a face to put to what he was suppressing.

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 09:20 AM
I agree.


It was all of these things...but you said that later, so okay. The creation of the 'voice' was mainly fueled by Lews Therin's memories, though, as it gave him a name and a face to put to what he was suppressing.

Exactly. I was actually editing my post to say exactly that while you posted that.

Terez
11-03-2009, 09:25 AM
Oh, and you should vote (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2489)! :)

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 09:28 AM
It says I can not vote in this poll.

Terez
11-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Looking into that.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 12:16 PM
The pieces of himself fit together better there. Hence, no voice.
That's just begging the question, though. I could easily say that the pieces fit better together because Rand is integrated when he's in Tel'aran'rhiod.



But Rand had just been getting the memories for a short time, and he had only realized where the memories were coming from 40 days previous, when he met with Lanfear in Rhuidean. He was a great deal more confused about the phenomenon in the beginning than he was toward the end. Again, it's all psychological. This totally explains the differences between the first scene and the second.
What totally explains it? And what differences do you mean? I know you've had this debate somewhere else, but I didn't see it. If you don't want to explain it again I'll understand.

Why exactly are you saying the voice disappeared in the two Tel'aran'rhiod scenes?

'Real' theory does not, because it somehow assumes that the dream is keeping Lews Therin away.
No it doesn't. My argument would be that Lews Therin isn't gone at all, he's just integrated into Rand's Hero archetype. When Rand is in TAR, he's more like the Hero that has all the personalities fitting seamlessly.

In any case, the 'voice' was obviously absent when Rand was in Tel'aran'rhiod to kill Rahvin, until Rand tried to think himself out of existence and had to bail. After that moment, it was gone again, until he left Tel'aran'rhiod. Why? Because the pieces of himself fit together better there. So much better that Rand subconsciously used Lews Therin's memories to fight his body fading away, and had a hard time convincing himself that he was not, in fact, Lews Therin. A very hard time. ;)
So, why again do the "pieces fit together"? It still sound like you're begging the question.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 02:00 PM
Cleansing saidin itself didn't undo any already-existing effects of the taint. But it would have stopped Rand from taking in any more Taint.
See, it's this tack that confuses me. You admit that the effects will not be undone, they just won't get worse. But the voice was undone. How, then, can you attribute it to Taint-damage?

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Cadsuane also undid the voice, but it came right back.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Cadsuane also undid the voice, but it came right back.
Are you implying that LTT will be back next book? :D

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 02:51 PM
Cadsuane also undid the voice, but it came right back.

Has it been established that the voice went away temporarily because of anything Cadsuane did? Or is that speculation?

Sodas
11-03-2009, 04:49 PM
See, it's this tack that confuses me. You admit that the effects will not be undone, they just won't get worse. But the voice was undone. How, then, can you attribute it to Taint-damage?


You must realize that LTT was real and self-aware, then you'd understand that it was LTT's epiphany that he was living his second chance in Rand. Therefore, he undid himself.
But he couldn't get to that point unless Saidin was cleansed of the Taint.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 05:10 PM
I think the thing that tGS drove home for me is that Robert Jordan did a very meticulous and realistic job of crafting the Rand character. In real life someone doesn't go insane because their job sucks. They go insane because their job sucks and their wife is cheating on them and they spend all day sitting in traffic and they're stressed about their credit card builds and possibly because they have a biological disposition to insanity.

Rand wasn't mad because of the taint, or because of the memories or because of what Lews Therin did to Ilyena or because he was basically tapped on the shoulder and asked to save the world or because so many people are out to kill him. He was insane because of all of these things. The Lews Therin voice in his head was the mechanism he subconsciously created to deal with those things.

There was more to Lews Therin in Rand's head than the memories of the past life, though that was a big part of it. But the personality of the voice progressed over the last 12 books and became the depository for the things that Rand couldn't or wouldn't deal with. For example in the Gathering Storm, Lews Therin does a lot of whining about being in the box. That's a Rand memory, not a Lews Therin memory, but the voice is more concerned about it than Rand was. Also, once Rand goes to Cuendillar mode and balefires Graendal's fortress, he's given up on the "don't kill women" mantra, but Lews Therin is still buzzing about the list.

So in my view the voice is just insane Rand's coping mechanism for everything he couldn't deal with. The memories are just the biggest part of that.

EDIT: The voice never said, "Hi, I'm Lews Therin, nice to meet you." That's just the identity Rand assigned to it based on some of the memories.

Excellent summation. Have rep.

This is pretty much the way I've thought about it. I never really cared whether it was a construct or real (does it really matter?), so I focused my attention on other theories. But this one pretty much sums up what goes through my head when I think of the construct vs real argument.

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:12 PM
I focused my attention on other theories.
You mean you focused on the Non board?

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 05:15 PM
I'm sure Camel's an avid reader of the main site theories, right?

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:16 PM
Or something.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 11:12 PM
But he couldn't get to that point unless Saidin was cleansed of the Taint.
Why's that? Cleansing saidin didn't undo any damage, so why could he suddenly "get to that point" now?

I'm genuinely not following your argument here, I'm not trying for sarcasm or anything. I think it's fairly obvious when I am. ;)

Sodas
11-04-2009, 12:29 AM
Why's that? Cleansing saidin didn't undo any damage, so why could he suddenly "get to that point" now?

Because when he first was in Rand's mind, he was very much insane. I figure at that point, he was very much a product of the Taint's degradation of lives. After the cleansing, he appears to become more sane as time passes. tGS is our first and only book where he is able to hold a conversation with Rand.

This is the progression of the voice in the books, from raging madman to the ruler who knew the keys to why the last attempt to Seal the Dark One failed. And Rand credits that to the Cleansing.

Ultimately, why? Because it's in the books. I'm not trying to suggest that the Taint's effects were undone. I'm suggesting that the books make it clear that there were effects from the Cleansing. So that means the implication is that without the Taint, other parts of the mind/body were able to heal. Afterall, when Rand was in his dream with Moridin, he was integrated and sane without a Taint infected body.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:54 AM
So that means the implication is that without the Taint, other parts of the mind/body were able to heal.
And that's my main problem with this theory, I suppose. It was said that damage from the taint would not heal, it just wouldn't get worse. You're arguing the opposite of that, and I find it highly dubious. ~shrug~

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 04:39 AM
Are you implying that LTT will be back next book? :DRead and find out. Read and find out.

That answer was intuitively obvious to the most casual reader, now, wasn't it? :p

For the record: I don't think LTT will be back. But it would be amiss to forget that this is not the first time he's gone.

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:44 AM
Lews Therin hasn't gone anywhere - he's Rand and he always has been. The reasons why the 'voice' went away the first time should certainly be intuitively obvious to the casual observer, but past discussion has shown that it was not obvious to most people.

In any case, the first time it wasn't due to reintegration.

I believe we might see a return of the 'voice' next time Rand sees Taim, or even hears his name mentioned.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 12:05 PM
And that's my main problem with this theory, I suppose. It was said that damage from the taint would not heal, it just wouldn't get worse. You're arguing the opposite of that, and I find it highly dubious. ~shrug~
Look at the question, it was :

Moridin: When/if Rand manages to remove the taint placed on saidin, are the people infected with it cured? Or does their condition remain the way it is?
RJ: When/if the taint is removed from saidin further ill effects are stopped but what has already occurred remains.

The question was what would happen when Rand removes the Taint from Saidin. Not what would happen months down the road. Because, like I said, LTT and his memories remained after the Taint was cleansed. But Rand incorporated into them only later.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 01:29 PM
Look at the question, it was :

Moridin: When/if Rand manages to remove the taint placed on saidin, are the people infected with it cured? Or does their condition remain the way it is?
RJ: When/if the taint is removed from saidin further ill effects are stopped but what has already occurred remains.
We're gonna have to put this one down to difference in interpretation, then. "What has already occurred remains" is pretty straightforward to me.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 02:15 PM
Yes, but what exactly occured because of the Taint? That is left wide open to interpretation.

Tamyrlin
11-04-2009, 02:20 PM
Of course, the 'voice' is just an illusion, because they were not two men, and NEVER HAD BEEN. Even in this scene. ;) It has been proven in TGS that this was not Lews Therin 'trying to take over' - it was all in Rand's head.
Obviously, I haven't been keeping up with this conversation. Doesn't a construct suggest a level of reality, more so than let's say a mirage, involving more than one sense? Can you explain what you mean by the word illusion? The taint influencing the development voice, gives more credence that the voice was something other than a simple mental illusion. Even if the taint warped Rand's inner voice, or helped Rand give voice to memories along with his heightened emotional state...illusion seems too basic to describe what was going on.

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:24 PM
Can you explain what you mean by the word illusion?
The illusion is that the 'voice' was Lews Therin (because Rand was Lews Therin all along).

The taint influencing the development voice, gives more credence that the voice was something other than a simple mental illusion.
Not sure why.

Even if the taint warped Rand's inner voice
Yes. I have been saying that all along, that it was Rand's inner voice. But the taint was only one influence, remember. Rand's denial issues had a great deal to do with constructing the 'voice'.

Lord Bloodpath
11-05-2009, 12:55 PM
okay, so a couple of points and a couple of questions:

Rand talks about boxes *a lot.* LTT whines about them but Rand almost destroys the pattern, and it's about boxes. If LTT is some strange little internal coping mechanism and dumping place for rotten motives and feelings then the whole last chapter makes no sense to me.
But if LTT is real (or as real as a 3000 yo dead guy can be, renting space in the head of a post adolescent kid destined to save existence because he is your reincarnation) and the taint was causing a chemical imbalance that prevented either of you from being rational enough to pony up to the fact that you were really the same person and should just get over it already, then the events of that chapter make sense and flow intuitively.
Think of it this way, the taint was like a river dividing a town, when the source got cleansed, the river started to dry up but there was still the ravine that the river had eroded. Eventually the townspeople cut steps or did whatever and now it's one town again.
I do believe that the LTT voice was a collection of leaked memories and mannerisms (although I think that if Mat could get leaked memories without channeling, talking to Finns or setting foot in Shadar Logoth, then Rand does not need to blame his memories on the taint). How is that different from being a construction, you ask? because I believe that in addition to a few memories and mannerisms, there came an ego, and while a personality fragment (or construct) does not suddenly shake off the mental programming it receives from the main personality and start healing the main part, the person themselves could.

Ozymandias
11-05-2009, 01:17 PM
What is a person, if not the accumulation of his/her experiences and the way a person's choices in those moments shaped their look on life?


If LTT's memories are seeping through, then I don't see how its any different. Why can't this be both? Rand gives a voice and a personality to the whole separate set of memories in his head; yes, on one level he's imaging Lews Therin, because he generates every conversation, but on the other hand, he generates those conversations based on the memory set imparted to him by LTT, meaning LTT's "voice" speaks the same things LTT would say if he was sitting across the table.


I tend to disbelieve the construct theory, because Rand knows far too much about Lews Therin, even manages to lose control of the Source to Lews Therin, for him to be anything but real

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 01:37 PM
If LTT's memories are seeping through, then I don't see how its any different. Why can't this be both? Rand gives a voice and a personality to the whole separate set of memories in his head; yes, on one level he's imaging Lews Therin, because he generates every conversation, but on the other hand, he generates those conversations based on the memory set imparted to him by LTT, meaning LTT's "voice" speaks the same things LTT would say if he was sitting across the table.The difference is that in Construct Theory, Rand is using that voice as a psychological output. If you think that's true, then you can't think the personality is the true personality of Lews Therin.


I tend to disbelieve the construct theory, because Rand knows far too much about Lews Therin, even manages to lose control of the Source to Lews Therin, for him to be anything but real
But if Construct Theory allows for all of LTT's memories to seep into Rand's mind, what difference would it make? Rand would know just as much.

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 05:09 PM
Rand talks about boxes *a lot.* LTT whines about them but Rand almost destroys the pattern, and it's about boxes. If LTT is some strange little internal coping mechanism and dumping place for rotten motives and feelings then the whole last chapter makes no sense to me.
Pfft, apparently you've never heard of "boxing away your emotions." :)

Lord Bloodpath
11-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Pfft, apparently you've never heard of "boxing away your emotions." :)
lol, Nice :cool:

Sodas
11-06-2009, 12:38 AM
But if Construct Theory allows for all of LTT's memories to seep into Rand's mind, what difference would it make? Rand would know just as much.

And that is exactly the point. He doesn't.

It's LTT who tells him that the Seals failed because they touched the Dark One. That was LTT's voice, not his memories.

The Gathering Storm
Chapter 22 pgs 344-345
She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.
She? Rand asked.
The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.
Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing...
....
Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used Saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought

Dollars to donuts that is the clue Rand will need to win TG.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:54 AM
So, Rand has about 98% of Lews Therin's memories, and 'Lews Therin' has the other 2%? And that's supposed to support 'real'?

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 10:13 AM
And that is exactly the point. He doesn't.

It's LTT who tells him that the Seals failed because they touched the Dark One. That was LTT's voice, not his memories.

You really don't understand Construct theory, do you? I mean, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were just playing along to irritate Terez and Bela. But now I think you just really don't get it.

Maybe if I explain it again to you, it will be more clear, because you know I'm not coming from the biased Construct side.

According to Construct theory, anything the Lews Therin Voice says to Rand is based either in a memory from Lews Therin's incarnation, or on Rand's perception of what Lews Therin would have said. You see, there is no Lews Therin in Rand's head. It's all just Rand disassociating himself from his soul's own memories, as well as what he believes are unacceptable emotions.

So, again:


It's LTT who tells him that the Seals failed because they touched the Dark One. That was LTT's voice, not his memories.

There is no LTT. LTT is dead, and reincarnated as Rand. The voice is Rand's head is not LTT, it's just Rand trying to deal with LTT's memories.


If you're going to try to argue against Construct theory specifically, at least read it.

Sodas
11-06-2009, 02:04 PM
According to Construct theory, anything the Lews Therin Voice says to Rand is based either in a memory from Lews Therin's incarnation, or on Rand's perception of what Lews Therin would have said. You see, there is no Lews Therin in Rand's head. It's all just Rand disassociating himself from his soul's own memories, as well as what he believes are unacceptable emotions.
.

Right, I fully aware of that. The key word being either/or. Either the voice is made from real memories OR they are a perception of what Rand thinks LTT would say.

What I'm saying is what happens when both aren't true, when Rand has no memories of the event (like the sealing) and when he has no clue what LTT would say about it.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 02:11 PM
Right, I fully aware of that. The key word being either/or. Either the voice is made from real memories OR they are a perception of what Rand thinks LTT would say.

What I'm saying is what happens when both aren't true, when Rand has no memories of the event (like the cleansing) and when he has no clue what LTT would say about it.
Rand has no memory of the Cleansing?

And in any case, both can't be true. He may not know what LTT would say, but his subconscious will make something up.

Sodas
11-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Rand has no memory of the Cleansing


Incorrect. Rand admits he has no memories of the Sealing, sorry, towards the end of the book. I don't have the book handy atm, because I'm at a business conference. But ill quote it later when I get home tonight.

And in any case, both can't be true. He may not know what LTT would say, but his subconscious will make something up.

Both being true? Well, that's not my contention.

Its when both are false.
We know Rand has no memory of the Sealing. And what LTT says seems like only LTT would be able to say about the attempt.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 02:55 PM
Incorrect. Rand admits he has no memories of the Sealing, sorry, towards the end of the book. I don't have the book handy atm, because I'm at a business conference. But ill quote it later when I get home tonight.

If you meant Sealing, then I'm good. However, Rand himself wouldn't have that memory from his own life. It would have been one that seeped through.


Both being true? Well, that's not my contention.

Its when both are false.
We know Rand has no memory of the Sealing. And what LTT says seems like only LTT would be able to say about the attempt.
Sorry...hehe...I meant both false. They can't both be false, according to Construct, because Rand's subconscious is going to make something up if there's no real memory. Or it will just be a situation where there doesn't need to be any LTT input whatsoever.

Terez
11-06-2009, 03:20 PM
Rand seems to have a hard time remembering when there's something specific that he wants to know. The memories come to him directly most of the time, but his suppression of them makes it difficult for him to remember certain specific things. The bit about the sealing and the bit about breaking a shield (in the box) are the only instances I can think of in the whole series where Rand managed to pry information out of the 'voice'.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 08:56 PM
What I'm saying is what happens when both aren't true, when Rand has no memories of the event (like the sealing) and when he has no clue what LTT would say about it.
As Crispy points out, you seem to be (once again) misunderstanding what the theory is.

If LTT did something, then Rand's soul did it. Those memories exist, somewhere. If Rand can't remember it, all that means is that he doesn't have direct access to that memory. Which is the situation that 99.9% of people in Randland find themselves in - they don't have access to memories from their past lives. Rand is (somehow) gaining access to those memories - nothing in the theory says that this is an all-or-nothing infodump all at once.

And then, in some cases (the ones you're referencing), Rand does technically have access to that particular memory - but he's cordoned it off into the LTT section of his mind. I'm sure we could do a lengthy example thread, but generally speaking, these are the "problematic" memories that deal with traumatic moments in LTT's life. Y'know, like the Cleansing and immediately going insane and killing everyone he loves.

In other words, it's only a question of having access to the memories, not a question of having them at all.

Terez
11-06-2009, 09:48 PM
I think Sodas' reading comprehension issues are contagious...

Sodas
11-06-2009, 11:43 PM
If LTT did something, then Rand's soul did it. Those memories exist, somewhere. If Rand can't remember it, all that means is that he doesn't have direct access to that memory. Which is the situation that 99.9% of people in Randland find themselves in - they don't have access to memories from their past lives. Rand is (somehow) gaining access to those memories - nothing in the theory says that this is an all-or-nothing infodump all at once.

And then, in some cases (the ones you're referencing), Rand does technically have access to that particular memory - but he's cordoned it off into the LTT section of his mind. I'm sure we could do a lengthy example thread, but generally speaking, these are the "problematic" memories that deal with traumatic moments in LTT's life. Y'know, like the Cleansing and immediately going insane and killing everyone he loves.

You lost me when you said it was traumatic moments in LTT's life. Since when does it matter whether or not LTT deemed them traumatic or not if it's Rand who is supposedly suppressing them?

And furthurmore, on what basis do you reason it was traumatic events in general? For all you know, it was just the plan behind the Sealing, because Rand has plenty of memories of traumatic events from LTT, such as the Forsaken, Shadowspawn, The War of Power, destroyed cities, waking up from killing his Kin, and plenty more.

But not ...


Chapter 47 - The One He Lost

I told them... Lews Therin whispered.
Told them what? Rand demanded.
That the plan would not work, Lews Therin said, voice very soft. That brute force would not contain him. They called my plan brash, but these weapons they created, they were too dangerous. Too frightening. No man should hold such Power....
Rand struggled with the thoughts, the voice, the memories. He couldn't recall much at all of Lews Therin's plan to Seal the Dark One's prison. The Choedan Kal - had they been built for that purpose?

But that's fine. I have no clue what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

Sodas
11-07-2009, 12:22 AM
I think Sodas' reading comprehension issues are contagious...

Good, at least that means that people are finished reading the books.

If it was Terez's reading comprehension issues, everyone would just skim the book.

I call that progress.

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:25 AM
You know Sodas....I only skimmed some chapters in the bookstore because I was short on time (it's sort of like being a spoiler whore, which you were before the book came out). I read it in full when it came out. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 12:27 AM
You lost me when you said it was traumatic moments in LTT's life. Since when does it matter whether or not LTT deemed them traumatic or not if it's Rand who is supposedly suppressing them?
I suppose I could have worded that better. I was referring here to things that LTT did that Rand doesn't want to acknowledge as being a part of himself (ie, Kinslaying and such).

But I'm starting to think you're right about this particular point. What if Rand/LTT is having such a hard time remembering the Sealing because it drove him insane on the spot? Have we actually seen any memories from LTT's crazy period? Nothing springs immediately to mind.

But that's fine. I have no clue what you are talking about. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm nearly starting to get used to that...

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:31 AM
I suppose I could have worded that better.
Not really. Since you're a constructor, it's well established that you think Rand=Lews Therin, so the distinction is pretty meaningless.

I'm nearly starting to get used to that...
It never ceases to amaze me, no matter how many times it happens.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 12:34 AM
Not really. Since you're a constructor, it's well established that you think Rand=Lews Therin, so the distinction is pretty meaningless.
Yeah, well, I find it easier to debate things when the other guy can understand what I'm saying, not just me. ;)

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:35 AM
Yeah, well....good luck with that. ;)

Sodas
11-07-2009, 02:39 AM
But I'm starting to think you're right about this particular point. What if Rand/LTT is having such a hard time remembering the Sealing because it drove him insane on the spot?

Rand doesn't remember the planning beforehand. So that seems unlikely.


Chapter 47 - The One He Lost

I told them... Lews Therin whispered.
Told them what? Rand demanded.
That the plan would not work, Lews Therin said, voice very soft. That brute force would not contain him. They called my plan brash, but these weapons they created, they were too dangerous. Too frightening. No man should hold such Power....
Rand struggled with the thoughts, the voice, the memories. He couldn't recall much at all of Lews Therin's plan to Seal the Dark One's prison. The Choedan Kal - had they been built for that purpose?

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other.

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward.

Funny how much they match.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 10:40 AM
Rand doesn't remember the planning beforehand. So that seems unlikely.
Yeah, he does. Your quote even shows it.

Unless you're making a distinction between Rand and LTT again. Which, since you know I don't believe that, would be pretty disingenuous.

Sodas
11-07-2009, 03:15 PM
Yeah, he does. Your quote even shows it.

Unless you're making a distinction between Rand and LTT again. Which, since you know I don't believe that, would be pretty disingenuous.

Yes, the voices and the thoughts behind them are distinct.
But the memories at that point in the story already merged.

That is why that whole "compartmental" idea, while nice sounding, doesn't make sense in this context. We know Rand has memories from LTT on tap, but not the planning ones.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 03:27 PM
But the memories at that point in the story already merged.
Obviously not all of them, since Rand still didn't have access to all of LTT's memories.

Sodas
11-07-2009, 03:41 PM
Obviously not all of them, since Rand still didn't have access to all of LTT's memories.

You sound confused. You should have said,

Obviously not all of them, since Rand still didn't have access to all of Rand's memories.

And well, that's not my fault. TGS makes it clear that Rand needs LTT's voice to tell him what happened even after they merged. So why the gap in his own memory is on your theory.

Lord Bloodpath
11-07-2009, 10:26 PM
This whole argument is giving me a bit of a headache.... Or maybe that's just my allergies. Anyway, I'm not sure I buy that Rand has now or ever did have full access to LTT's memories. However, we have these two occasions that stand out as aberrations.

What's the deal? If Rand couldn't accept that LTT was not seperate from himself then surely all of his past life's memories should have been filtered through this construct. Period. Anything else is some very wish-washy weirdness that doesn't stand up to the logic of a ten-year-old.

If on the other hand, Rand was okay with the idea at some point before the full reintegration, then why would the voice ever provide any information at all?

I seem to recall LTT providing a couple of new weaves too. I can't see a personality splinter doing something like that.... and what about controlling the source without controlling the body... what was that in construct terms?

Lastly, I have not seen a 'Construct' answer as to why LTT was saner than Rand at the end. It really seems to me like abject silliness to say that this artificial insanity inspired creation whose defining existence consists of only repressed feelings and insane thought routines is what talked Rand down from the ledge.

If you'd like an answer to any or all of these Q's from a "realer's" perspective, I'll be happy to oblige or allow someone else to step in with their own thoughts. I'm done for now.

Terez
11-07-2009, 11:27 PM
What's the deal? If Rand couldn't accept that LTT was not seperate from himself then surely all of his past life's memories should have been filtered through this construct. Period. Doesn't work that way. The memories were HIS. If he had conscious control over it, then you might have a point, but since it was subconscious, construct makes the most sense.

I seem to recall LTT providing a couple of new weaves too. Memories of weaves almost always come directly to Rand. The only exception was the Shadowspawn attack at Algarin's, where Lews Therin appears to take over.

I can't see a personality splinter doing something like that.... and what about controlling the source without controlling the body... what was that in construct terms? Subconscious moves like this are bound to have imperfections. It doesn't make any more sense in 'real' terms - why couldn't Lews Therin take over his body there? He appears to have done so before.

I have not seen a 'Construct' answer as to why LTT was saner than Rand at the end. The 'voice' is essentially Rand's inner voice. Originally, Rand suppressed most of his 'mad' thoughts. But as time went on, Rand was growing madder, and harder, and it was his sane thoughts that he was suppressing. The real'ers have no answer for why Lews Therin would grow saner without Healing, but it makes perfect sense under 'construct'.

Matoyak
11-08-2009, 12:26 AM
LB, you know, you don't HAVE to agree to either side. They're both theories, and neither are proven. Besides that, it's a moot point, and a very small one at that. But then, I've been told I complicate the issue with what I believe on it, so meh. ~shrug~

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 12:40 AM
You're right Mato, and I may very well quiet down soon, but I'd like to get my ideas out there before I shut up :)
The 'voice' is essentially Rand's inner voice. Originally, Rand suppressed most of his 'mad' thoughts. But as time went on, Rand was growing madder, and harder, and it was his sane thoughts that he was suppressing. The real'ers have no answer for why Lews Therin would grow saner without Healing, but it makes perfect sense under 'construct'.
If we're trying to look at this from a psychological perspective, it seems very strange to have LTT as Rand's inner voice, especially when Rand had an inner voice already. There was also that voice that died inside him right before he was about to kill Tam. We all have lots of levels of thought inside us, and if someone puts together a rival for the top tier of their mind, I don't see it doubling as voice of reason, source of anything beyond an alternate perspective and stress, or something to talk to when you're bored or lonely.

LTT grew saner because the taint was no longer there to keep him mad. The pressure, strain and guilt was all there was to keep it going and they did an admirable job, driving him to the brink. The taint was what made the Dragon think himself two different people and once it was gone, reintegration started naturally but was slowed down by all the pain and fear. Once it was faced, and Rand was about to destroy the Pattern, LTT realized that the DO was about to win right there unless he snapped himself out of it and so he did. And then he proceeded to snap Rand out of it.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:47 AM
If we're trying to look at this from a psychological perspective, it seems very strange to have LTT as Rand's inner voice, especially when Rand had an inner voice already.
It makes perfect sense. In the beginning, Rand just had thoughts based on the memories, or spoke based on the memories. He assumed that these thoughts were the product of 'another man'. The concept of Lews Therin's voice was born. His own inner voice still existed, but from there on out, Rand lumped them together for the most part.

There was also that voice that died inside him right before he was about to kill Tam.
That didn't show up till toward the end, when Rand was having a harder time than ever convincing himself that Lews Therin was another man. I thought it was a nice touch.

LTT grew saner because the taint was no longer there to keep him mad.
RJ said that the Cleansing did not reverse the effects of the taint.

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 01:18 AM
In the beginning, Rand just had thoughts based on the memories, or spoke based on the memories. He assumed that these thoughts were the product of 'another man'. The concept of Lews Therin's voice was born.

This statement brought me as close to believing in your theory as I've come so far. But this can also be explained by the idea that the taint allowed for the idea that they were Two and so LTT felt more comfortable and therefore made his presence felt more as time wore on.

Since the little voice showed up late does that mean it was a new manifestion of insanity? What precisely is it that you are saying, because I'm not following.... I got the impression that the voice in his heart just hadn't been so eloquent but that it had spoken to him more in feelings, thus his name for it. It was still his conscience.

I'm not claiming that anything 'got reversed' by Cleansing. I am comparing the taint to a dam across a river which caused a swamp to form, but once the dam was removed, the swamp slowly drained until there was only a river again (with some wet ground around it still.)

Sodas
11-08-2009, 02:27 AM
And just for the record,

As Crispy points out, you seem to be (once again) misunderstanding what the theory is.

If LTT did something, then Rand's soul did it. Those memories exist, somewhere. If Rand can't remember it, all that means is that he doesn't have direct access to that memory. Which is the situation that 99.9% of people in Randland find themselves in - they don't have access to memories from their past lives. Rand is (somehow) gaining access to those memories - nothing in the theory says that this is an all-or-nothing infodump all at once.

I pretty much figured from Callandor's original theory that it was all or nothing.

I want to make it perfectly clear once again. Genuine memories from Lews Therins life entered into Rands mind. Rand constructed Lews Therin off of the basis of those memories to deal with them. Hence why Lews Therin is a construct made by Rand. With that settled, I will now show why I believe this, and specifically how this works.

So even if I was mistaken Bela about your interpretation of Construct theory, at least you can see why I'd think so.


Funny, I love Callandor's conclussion in retrospect :

Whats left to be dealt with is Rands suppression of emotions. Since one of the key elements of Lews Therin is the output for Rands emotions, without them being suppressed the need for Lews Therin will disappear. Weve already seen an instance of this: again, when Lews Therin disappears from roughly the middle of A Crown of Swords till early The Path of Daggers. He actually expresses his emotions and Lews Therin disappears. After this, Rand eventually went back to suppressing more and more of his emotions, and Lews Therin gradually returned. How Lews Therin will disappear for good is by what Cadsuane has to teach Rand and all the Ashaman

Oh, she sure taught him! :rolleyes: It's Cadsuane's fault for not destroying the male a'dam. If anything, she turned Rand into Cuendillar even more than Semirhage because he thinks Cadsaune betrayed him.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:30 AM
And well, that's not my fault. TGS makes it clear that Rand needs LTT's voice to tell him what happened even after they merged. So why the gap in his own memory is on your theory.
Hm. How are you coming to this conclusion? In my copy of the book, they "merged," and the chapter ended on the next page. I don't recall Rand mentioning needing LTT's voice for anything at all in those couple of paragraphs.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:32 AM
So even if I was mistaken Bela about your interpretation of Construct theory, at least you can see why I'd think so.
Not even a little bit. I don't actually see this contradiction you're so proud of finding.

Sodas
11-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Not even a little bit. I don't actually see this contradiction you're so proud of finding.

I'm talking about your idea that Rand was compartmentalizing LTT thoughts, memories and voice.

Callandor's original theory was all about genuine memories + Rand's suppression of them = LTT voice.

I want to make it perfectly clear once again. Genuine memories from Lews Therins life entered into Rands mind. Rand constructed Lews Therin off of the basis of those memories to deal with them. Hence why Lews Therin is a construct made by Rand. With that settled, I will now show why I believe this, and specifically how this works.

That is why it's not so crazy to ask :

Why would LTT have memories that Rand doesn't have, if Rand is the one creating LTT based upon his own memories?

Do you get me yet?

p.s. sorry for the edits

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:47 AM
I'm talking about your idea that Rand was compartmentalizing LTT thoughts, memories and voice.

Callandor's original theory was all about genuine memories + Rand's suppression of them = LTT voice.

Do you see that?
Do you not understand that "compartmentalizing" and "suppressing" are the same thing here?

Oh, and you're wrong about my theory saying that "Rand was compartmentalizing LTT thoughts, memories and voice." He was only doing that to the memories. The thoughts and the voice were created by Rand, from those memories. Which is, literally, exactly what your quote from Callandor says.

Why would LTT have memories that Rand doesn't have, if Rand is the one creating LTT based upon his own memories?
Because Rand isn't letting himself (subconsciously) access all of those memories. They got shoved into the "crazy" part of his brain with LTT.

Sodas
11-08-2009, 02:51 AM
Hm. How are you coming to this conclusion? In my copy of the book, they "merged," and the chapter ended on the next page. I don't recall Rand mentioning needing LTT's voice for anything at all in those couple of paragraphs.

How do I come to that conclussion?

I think the books make it clear he merged earlier with LTT.


Ch 1 - Tears from Steel
Pg. 63

Light! he thought. I'm losing control. Half the time, I don't know which voice is mine and which is his. This was supposed to get better when I cleansed saidin! I was supposed to be safe...

But Rand consider's LTT to have his own set of memories.


Ch 5 - A Tale of Blood
Pg. 103

Oh, Light, Rand thought with despair. I'm losing myself. Losing myself in him.
The most terrifying part was that Rand could no longer make himself wish to banish Lews Therin. Lews Therin had known a way to seal the Bore, if imperfectly, but Rand had no idea how to approach the task. The safety of the world might depend on the memories of a dead madman.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:59 AM
How do I come to that conclussion?

I think the books make it clear he merged earlier with LTT.
Have we started that list of differences? :D

What you're referencing is (IMO, naturally) merely "overlapping." I cannot consider Rand and LTT to be "merged" until there is only one voice and one set of memories. If two things merge, then you can't still have two things. ;)

Sodas
11-08-2009, 03:13 AM
Do you not understand that "compartmentalizing" and "suppressing" are the same thing here?

Oh, and you're wrong about my theory saying that "Rand was compartmentalizing LTT thoughts, memories and voice." He was only doing that to the memories. The thoughts and the voice were created by Rand, from those memories. Which is, literally, exactly what your quote from Callandor says.


Because Rand isn't letting himself (subconsciously) access all of those memories. They got shoved into the "crazy" part of his brain with LTT.

That is not the impression you gave before.

Post #19

I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.

So which is it. Does Rand share memories with LTT or not? I'm confused by these posts, sorry.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 08:30 PM
So which is it. Does Rand share memories with LTT or not? I'm confused by these posts, sorry.
Well, first off, Rand isn't literally "sharing memories" with LTT - LTT's memories are Rand's memories from his most recent past life. "Sharing" implies that there's two guys who have the same memories.

But more to your point, this is where the "suppression" thing that we've been discussing comes in. As I've been trying to say in my last several posts, Rand's conscious mind does not have access to all of his soul's LTT memories. That is not the same as Rand not having those memories at all.

Lord Bloodpath
11-09-2009, 12:14 AM
Having all the memories in the world back to the start of existence doesn't help unless your soul allows you access to them. The interface between the soul and the mind is a funny thing, is mind a power or a function of a soul? is it something on it's own or as much as a hand is part of a body?

I think that there are many shades or levels of what is real, but the degree of reality of a thing is determined by the quantity and the quality of the impact(s) of that thing upon other things. And the more real things that are affected by it in significant ways, the more real it is. (probably should have put this in the 'what is real' thread, lol)

Regardless of whether LTT's voice was caused by Rand's subconscious, The Pattern, The taint, LTT's ghost, or somebody farting too loudly, he had a real impact on Rand, those around him, and a buttload of Forsaken and Shadowspawn. He had his own memories that were not from Rand's lifetime, and his own skills never developed by Rand (like drawing.)

Even if LTT's voice in Rand's head was a mental construct, I think we have enough evidence over the course of the books to say that he was as close to the real LTT as the Dragon ever was during the AoL

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 05:20 AM
Having all the memories in the world back to the start of existence doesn't help unless your soul allows you access to them.Having a good search function might also be nice.

I mean, you can reach any information available on the Internet simply by typing in the right URL in your browser. Finding that URL isn't entirely trivial, though.
Same (though a bit worse) if you have an infinite number of memories. How do you pick the useful from the fluff?

Sodas
11-09-2009, 03:17 PM
Do you not understand that "compartmentalizing" and "suppressing" are the same thing here?

Oh, and you're wrong about my theory saying that "Rand was compartmentalizing LTT thoughts, memories and voice." He was only doing that to the memories. The thoughts and the voice were created by Rand, from those memories. Which is, literally, exactly what your quote from Callandor says.


Because Rand isn't letting himself (subconsciously) access all of those memories. They got shoved into the "crazy" part of his brain with LTT.

I think my problem with that is that your saying on one hand Rand can't access those suppressed memories.

And on the other hand, he's creating a voice and thoughts from those suppressed memories.

Seems to conflict.

Belazamon
11-09-2009, 04:26 PM
I think my problem with that is that your saying on one hand Rand can't access those suppressed memories.

And on the other hand, he's creating a voice and thoughts from those suppressed memories.

Seems to conflict.
Only because you seem to be having difficulty with the concept of "conscious" versus "subconscious."

Sodas
11-10-2009, 05:42 PM
Only because you seem to be having difficulty with the concept of "conscious" versus "subconscious."

Yes, you are right. I wasn't looking at it in that light.

But let's get back to the suppression. You say it's unconscious. How does one stop the unconscious from continuing to suppress the memories? What does any conscious viewpoint Rand makes on the origin of those memories have to do with solving the unconscious behavior?

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 08:03 PM
But let's get back to the suppression. You say it's unconscious. How does one stop the unconscious from continuing to suppress the memories? What does any conscious viewpoint Rand makes on the origin of those memories have to do with solving the unconscious behavior?
In this particular case, it appears to have been due to a final revelation about the "differences" between himself and LTT - to wit, that fundamentally, there aren't any. The subconscious suppression of the LTT memories was due to a denial that these memories were his in any way, shape, or form - then he had his "breakthrough" moment that unlocked the floodgates, so to speak. In other words, he finally both understood and accepted that these memories were his, and thus the underlying motivation for the suppression was eliminated.

That, after all, is why it's called a "breakthrough." :)

Sodas
11-10-2009, 08:17 PM
In this particular case, it appears to have been due to a final revelation about the "differences" between himself and LTT - to wit, that fundamentally, there aren't any. The subconscious suppression of the LTT memories was due to a denial that these memories were his in any way, shape, or form - then he had his "breakthrough" moment that unlocked the floodgates, so to speak. In other words, he finally both understood and accepted that these memories were his, and thus the underlying motivation for the suppression was eliminated.

That, after all, is why it's called a "breakthrough." :)

You keep saying this is a list of differences, but I've shown you quotes that support my opinion in this book at length throughout this thread.

For one, I don't see evidence that he wasn't sharing memories beforehand. I already quoted evidence that the memories of LTT and Rand were already merging. And how he equates the merging with LTT with the Cleansing.

Nor do I see a rejection of LTT's memories before he ascends Dragonmount. I see Rand as already having accepted LTT's memories as his own. Afterall, Rand does accept Ilyena on his list. And he does accept that he died at Dragonmount before any "breakthrough."

So I don't see this suppression concept holding true what we see in this book. Maybe I'll need to sit down and write everything out in 1 post.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 08:32 PM
See, I agree that the barriers are breaking down throughout the whole book - all I meant by "breakthrough" is the moment at the end of the book where all of the "barriers" are finally washed away. He's been chipping away at them all book, but he's still thinking in terms of "I'm having a hard time distinguishing between his thoughts and mine" - in other words, still thinking in terms of there being a dichotomy, albeit a shrinking one.

As for "evidence that he wasn't sharing memories beforehand" - that's actually what you've been citing the whole time, the idea that LTT has access to memories that Rand doesn't.

In short, it seems like you are under the impression that I think that Rand went from completely un-integrated to completely integrated at the end, with little to no inbetween. I'm actually arguing that all of tGS was an integration process, and the final chapter was just the culmination of that.

Savvy?

Sodas
11-10-2009, 10:57 PM
Savvy.

But I see it as having started after the Cleansing. As early as Crossroads, Rand was thinking about them getting closer to merging.

Lord Bloodpath
11-11-2009, 12:04 AM
Isn't there, like, another thread that throws this whole debate into sharp relief by saying that RJ was being specifically vague on this exact issue and leaving it all open to interpretation?

Whatever you are looking for, you will find because the author(s) threw in evidence for both sides and made sure lots of it could go either way.

We are after all, trying to argue in concrete terms about abstract concepts ;)

Belazamon
11-11-2009, 12:37 AM
But I see it as having started after the Cleansing. As early as Crossroads, Rand was thinking about them getting closer to merging.
Fair enough.

Isn't there, like, another thread that throws this whole debate into sharp relief by saying that RJ was being specifically vague on this exact issue and leaving it all open to interpretation?
At this point, I think we're both just trying to figure out exactly what the other guy's complete argument is. Intellectual exercises for the win. :)

Lord Bloodpath
11-11-2009, 12:41 AM
If I didn't believe in intellectual exercise, I wouldn't be here ;)

So Bela, do you think you understand the realer's side yet? Or just Sodas'?

Terez
11-11-2009, 04:53 AM
The real'ers side doesn't take much to understand. It's the 'obvious' explanation.

Lord Bloodpath
11-12-2009, 03:07 AM
I dunno about that.... We're told men who channel go insane, and Rand starts hearing a voice in his head that is clearly not sane. Seems pretty open and shut to me, he's a nutter and of course the voice is fake.

It's not until you look deeper and think about it that you get to the 'real' answer :D

the_dead
11-12-2009, 05:24 AM
I saw this on Dragonmount in the The Q&A Compilation (Spoilers).

It would be nice to see if we do get a return of LTT.

Another asked him, considering how the TGS ends, if he will miss writing in Lews Therin voice, Brandon said probably, but he was not 100% sure that we will not see Lews Therin voice again.

I am curious how a return of the voice would happen though. Might shed some light on this debate. It is just unfortunate that we wont be getting an answer.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:12 AM
I am curious how a return of the voice would happen though. Might shed some light on this debate. It is just unfortunate that we wont be getting an answer.
I have already said that I predict a return of the 'voice' next time Rand sees Taim. :) And yes, that would definitely shed further light on the debate...

Isabel
11-12-2009, 10:34 AM
It wouldn't ;) remember the quote from Semirhage. That's it's hard to integrate?

Terez
11-12-2009, 10:43 AM
Yeah, but Rand is already integrated. ;) And I didn't mean it would shed light for the die-hard real'ers. Obviously you guys will be Whitecloaks till the bitter end.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2009, 10:59 AM
Perhaps he will unintegrate again? :p

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Perhaps he will unintegrate again? :p
Or possibly disintegrate?

I believe there's been prophecies about that sort of thing.

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 05:19 PM
So Bela, do you think you understand the realer's side yet? Or just Sodas'?
I have a personal conception of the "real" argument that I understand pretty well, though I don't subscribe to it. It's whenever I get into discussions with other Realers that they start bringing up things that don't make any sense to me. ;)

Jokeslayer
11-12-2009, 05:35 PM
Perhaps he will unintegrate again? :p

Differentiate, possibly

Lord Bloodpath
11-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Terez, I sorta resent the Whitecloak comment.... Although I consider faith a fair method for making some decisions (especially when there isn't enough hard data to come to a proper determination based on logic alone,) it seems more rational to me to say that LTT's actual personality coalesced in Rand's mind rather than try to say that a subconscious construct gets repeatedly confused by things like whether the body has always belonged to it or not. Or is willing to surrender it's own existence when it is by definition a collection of unpleasantness and insanity. Or maybe Rand surrendered to the fake voice, that idea was never clear to me.

There's adequate proof for and against each side, which looks much better when we interpret it according to our personal prejudices... I think it's best if nobody tries to indicate that there is a 'correct' perspective when all the evidence we have has purposefully been left vague and open.

In any case, I hope the voice really is gone. I'm pretty tired of it at this point. Also: I like it when 'never' really means 'never.' Or means next sentence, cause that can be funny occasionally.

He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

He regarded the world beneath him. The clouds above had finally broken. Thank the light, Lews Therin quipped, All that gloom was really beginning to bring my mood down... Rand felt a moment of shock and then laughed so hard that he fell backwards onto the rocks, tears streaming from his eyes. He guessed he was madder than ever now. So much for Power-granted epiphanies. Shut up already said Lews Therin, We think too much.

That said, Rand will probably just be predisposed towards being very mistrustful of Taim and his cronies (if he doesn't meet them in open battle next time he sees them,) which is exactly how a sane person should act anyway.

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:16 AM
Terez, I sorta resent the Whitecloak comment....
It was intended to make you resent it! lol...obviously I don't think that the evidence is so equally weighted as you (and Isa, and others) make out.

Although I consider faith a fair method for making some decisions (especially when there isn't enough hard data to come to a proper determination based on logic alone,) it seems more rational to me to say that LTT's actual personality coalesced in Rand's mind rather than try to say that a subconscious construct gets repeatedly confused by things like whether the body has always belonged to it or not.
Confusion is the nature of a subconsciously-constructed personality because, after all, the existence of the second personality doesn't make any sense. And this is Rand's own confusion that we see through the construct.

Or is willing to surrender it's own existence when it is by definition a collection of unpleasantness and insanity.
Not sure what you're getting at here.

I think it's best if nobody tries to indicate that there is a 'correct' perspective when all the evidence we have has purposefully been left vague and open.
I don't think it's very 'vague and open' at all. There is a clear breadcrumb trail to follow here, with Rand's motives and the development of the 'voice'.

That said, Rand will probably just be predisposed towards being very mistrustful of Taim and his cronies (if he doesn't meet them in open battle next time he sees them,) which is exactly how a sane person should act anyway.
Lews Therin wanted to kill Taim. Rand always wondered why. Yet, when Lews Therin's 'voice' went away (after Cadsuane mentioned the voices of madmen), Rand found himself in a situation where he was dealing with Taim's cronies. And guess what? Rand wanted to kill Torval. Very much so. And guess what else? That is the chapter where the 'voice' came back. ;) Of course, it was entirely a sane reaction for Rand to mistrust Torval, and even for him to want to kill Torval. But it was a very inconvenient reaction. That's why Rand always expressed those desires through Lews Therin, and why, when he expressed them on his own due to the absence of Lews Therin, he quickly reinstated the construct. He banished the construct because of the implication that he was mad, but the later implications with Torval were more troublesome to him.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 11:36 AM
LTT also often expressed the wish to kill the Forsaken, but when Rand offed Semirhage, LTT was uncomfortable about that.

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:39 AM
LOL, mostly because of the True Power. But yeah, there are many examples of Rand changing his mind throughout the series, and Lews Therin is always his 'inner voice', offering up the objections whichever way they fall.