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FelixPax
10-29-2009, 02:14 AM
Considering Rand uses a huge amount of balefire to kill Graendal in that fortress, is Asmodean now in the present once again?

Asmodean already was balefired once by Rahvin, but yet Rand balefired Rahvin in the TAR and Asmodean returned to alive in Caemlyn.

Asmodean was killed without Balefire the 2nd time around, by an uncertain individual in Caemlyn. Graendal is one common individual seen as having an opportunity, motive and ability to have Asmodean the second time around. However since Graendal was killed by possibly the largest Balefire stream ever used in history, should not Asmodean return to live yet again in Caemlyn?

Wonder what Elayne, Birgitte, Mat, Talmanes would make of Asmodean popping up all of a sudden in Caemlyn?

So Asmodean missed death yet again, because of Rand's actions?

Sodas
10-29-2009, 02:16 AM
...

No.

Even if it was possible, that was months beforehand. Do you really think Graendal still did it despite the fact that we will never have a POV from her again?

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:21 AM
I'm pretty sure that the Dark One knows who killed Asmodean, at least, so Graendal is not really out. But not only is it probably impossible to bring someone back via balefire that was killed more than a day or so ago...Asmodean couldn't be brought back via transmigration, RJ says because of how he died and where he died. If the Dark One couldn't bring him back, I doubt balefire could either (most likely Asmodean was balefired).

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 02:23 AM
...

No.

Even if it was possible, that was months beforehand. Do you really think Graendal still did it despite the fact that we will never have a POV from her again?

Rand used the largest most powerful sa'angreal ever created to make the biggest single Balefire stream ever seen, very likely. Who can say how far it back in time it touched?

Remember the "Bowl of Winds" scene with Elayne, Nynaeve, the Sea Folk Windfinders? Well, the Wise Ones felt what Rand's impact of killing Graendal a good while after the fact of the event. The 'Bowl of Winds' wasn't made for globe effect but it did end up working worldwide; yet that male sa'angreal just outside Cairhien is far more powerful which Rand used.


If Graendal killed Asmodean, Asmodean outlasted Graendal's very own life. :D

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 02:24 AM
Asmodean couldn't be brought back via transmigration, RJ says because of how he died and where he died. If the Dark One couldn't bring him back, I doubt balefire could either (most likely Asmodean was balefired).

The Dark One chose not to bring him back, because of his character.

But Rand can bring Asmodean back to life, and not even know it. By simply balefiring his original killer.
Mat, Aviendha came back to life this way before, once already.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:27 AM
The Dark One chose not to bring him back, because of his character.
RJ said otherwise:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/201357/t/NY-Meet-October-11.html#reply-201357)

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.
If you want to question that, take it up with WSB. :D

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 02:39 AM
RJ said otherwise:


If you want to question that, take it up with WSB. :D
[/FONT][/SIZE]

What is Death, if you didn't die in the first place?

Paradox, no?



RJ's played with the concept of "Death", already in character of Rand...why not with Asmodean as well?
Who's to say Asmodean ever even entered the Third Constant at all? If his killer never existed at all?

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:49 AM
pssh...RJ confirmed that Asmodean is dead several times, though once he did tell someone 'what makes you think Asmodean is dead?' lol...I liked that answer, but I doubt it was serious. :)

Aviendha did it!

Or maybe Slayer. He's a good possibility. Just hard to figure out at the moment Asmodean died, since we didn't know he was an assassin then.

FelixPax
10-29-2009, 03:05 AM
pssh...RJ confirmed that Asmodean is dead several times, though once he did tell someone 'what makes you think Asmodean is dead?' lol...I liked that answer, but I doubt it was serious. :)


We can I believe make an educated guess, Asmodean was not Balefired himself in Caemlyn. Why?

The damage at Rhuidean he cause still existed, I believe after his death. Altogether we should learn more, in the next book ToM with Aviendha's pov I think specifically.

"Death" is a strange beast, in the Wheel of Time, considering individuals can be reborn at a later date into the pattern. Death is an "Illusion", as both the Aiel and Amayar know.

Take Min's own visions of future events, or when Rand stepped into that parallel world of death with Ishamael and Lanfear attempting to bully or manipulate him? Min's visions tell the future every time, for example, but if a Balefired individual doesn't exist then their actions never existed. Meaning one needs to take a serious look at Rand's own memories of Asmodean.

I think the "Pattern" knew in advance Rand was going to balefire Graendal, and the Dark One never had the opportunity to chose alive nor dead for Asmodean because of the Dragon Reborn's very own actions. Verin Sedai did hint at worlds even more difficult to reach that what the Portal Stones offer, to Egwene once. So what would those strange worlds be for? A place or world of memories? A sort of a holding pattern of a life? A life stopped, then rebooted? No memory of the pause? A continuation of life.


Assuming of course, Graendal was the killer of Asmodean in the first place. Even Semirhage was balefired by Rand, with a much smaller stream of True Power.

Terez
10-29-2009, 03:06 AM
You do realize that when Rand balefired the Darkhounds, that the damage was only erased something like a minute into the past, right? There were months between Rhuidean and Asmodean's death.

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Asmodean already was balefired once by Rahvin, but yet Rand balefired Rahvin in the TAR and Asmodean returned to alive in Caemlyn.

Rahvin didn't balefire Asmodean. Otherwise there wouldn't be this whole mystery LOL


Originally Posted by FelixPax
The Dark One chose not to bring him back, because of his character.

RJ said otherwise:


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

If you want to question that, take it up with WSB. :D


Exactly. We can assume the DO didn't care for Asmodean's actions in working with Rand, though in hindsight, knowing the oaths that Darkfriends take, how did Asmodean get around those? We also know that the DO DID NOT have a choice about bringing back Asmodean, but its not 100% certain that he would not have brought back Asmodean, seeing as how few Chosen there are. And Asmodean certainly fits Verin's definition of selfish and thus controllable.

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 11:07 AM
I, at least, had the impression the amount of power used in that balefire was so massive because it covered a wide area, rather than because it was designed to burn the thread further back in time. It makes sense that a stream of balefire that's massive, say the size of a fortress, would require more power than one that only needs to kill a single trolloc.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 11:14 AM
The Dark One couldn't have transmigrated Asmodean, even he had wanted to.

The question Terez quoted is a followup to the original question about whether he could have.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, not grabbing Asmodean's soul if he could have, is a ridiculous notion. The DO would not have allowed a traitor like Asmodean to return to the soul pool to be recycled by the Wheel and possibly to frustrate the DO's plans in a future turning, simply because of "Asmodean? meh".

We have every reason to believe that the DO can hold a soul indefinitely.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 11:16 AM
To follow up on this question that Felix poses...we are Theoryland after all.

Who knows if Brandon will answer, but we can ask if Jordan left a quantity of Balefire to time erased equation, and whether or not (what's the exact time?) three months is within the realm of possibilities for a thread to be erased.

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 12:32 PM
To follow up on this question that Felix poses...we are Theoryland after all.

Who knows if Brandon will answer, but we can ask if Jordan left a quantity of Balefire to time erased equation, and whether or not (what's the exact time?) three months is within the realm of possibilities for a thread to be erased.

I added this question to my list for Nov 9 signing. As a corollary, I want to ask if there are different kinds of balefire (and not just different degrees of it) though it doesn't seem likely.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 12:36 PM
I added this question to my list for Nov 9 signing. As a corollary, I want to ask if there are different kinds of balefire (and not just different degrees of it) though it doesn't seem likely.

Ask if there is any difference between True Power balefire and One Power balefire. That would have significance to Semi's death.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 12:37 PM
I like that question about one power and true power balefire.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 12:45 PM
I like that question about one power and true power balefire.

Both were added, jefe.

One Armed Gimp
10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

I had never heard that quote before. Why all this focus on how he died instead of where?

The only "where" I cam think of having an impact is Shayol Ghul. The book doesn't explicitly state that he died in Caemlyn. Has Jordan ever said anything else about the location?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-29-2009, 03:38 PM
I had never heard that quote before. Why all this focus on how he died instead of where?

The only "where" I cam think of having an impact is Shayol Ghul. The book doesn't explicitly state that he died in Caemlyn. Has Jordan ever said anything else about the location?

Yes, I had not heard this before either. But I tend to avoid Asmo threads like the plague. This, though, intrigues me. Was he pulled through a gateway to somewhere else? Was he pulled into Tel'a'dreamy'land?

I will pay more attention in my re-read this weekend to see what jumps out as a possible hint. Thanks for sharing that statement from Brandon with us Tam :D

Terez
10-29-2009, 03:49 PM
I had never heard that quote before.
If you check out the interview database linked in my sig, then you can probably eliminate the vast majority of quotes you've never heard of before. I think I am missing a few (going to track them down if I can) but not that many.

And yeah, the only location mention we know of is the one that says that proximity to Shayol Ghul at time of death makes it easier. My best bet is: combination of small amount of balefire and distance from Shayol Ghul being too far.

One Armed Gimp
10-29-2009, 04:02 PM
Thanks for the link, it actually helped me find proof for another point:

If "where" played a role, then balefire was not involved. Since the DO can not recycle souls that have been bf'd, the combination of "how" and "where" would be unnecessary.

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 04:09 PM
As Jordan replied to my question in the question of the week, balefire is not enough sometimes to prevent Transmigration because if the thread is not burned back far enough, the GL can still grab the soul.

So, where and how...how being balefire, where being back in time far enough to prevent the GL from grabbing his soul.

Instead of using where/how, we often refer to this same concept by saying: a strong burst of balefire, because it's not enough to simply say balefire.

One Armed Gimp
10-29-2009, 04:23 PM
That would go against what the DO said in LoC:

RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME

To me that implies balefire of any strength. I also do not think that back far enough in time would qualify as "where", more of a "when".

Tamyrlin
10-29-2009, 04:44 PM
Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:28 PM
Is anyone else picking up on the earlier post of the early scenes of the pattern "bulging" being connected with that balefire? I don't really think thats the case....