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Firseal
10-29-2009, 01:46 AM
Firseal (2:14:02 AM): I have a kind sister.
Firseal (2:14:09 AM): I also read fast.
Firseal (2:14:45 AM): So. We know how the Dark One can be sealed, and I suspect what those wounds in Rand's side are doing.
TheorylandGod (2:23:02 AM): heh
Firseal (2:25:12 AM): We've spent so many years with the negative consequences of the taint. Never considered what might be positive applications.
Firseal (2:26:49 AM): More, the concept of the Well, combined with that, and the knowledge that the Taint and the miasma of Shadar Logoth both resonate. How much you wanna bet that Rand's wounds are in essence a True Power version of the Eye of the World, concentrated strength of the Dark One?
TheorylandGod (2:29:00 AM): ...wow...hadn't thought of that
TheorylandGod (2:29:18 AM): you believe that he pulled True Power from...in essence within himself thanks to the wound?
Firseal (2:29:26 AM): I suspect it
Firseal (2:29:49 AM): Look, we know what the link to the Dark One looks like, the Dark Wires. Asmodean, book 4
Firseal (2:29:59 AM): ... can't believe I am going into this without a reread.
Firseal (2:30:54 AM): Rand doesn't have that, which I think means two things - he can't get the True Power normally (didn't get it in the usual way) and he didn't have the usual protections.
TheorylandGod (2:31:16 AM): see - I was thinking he got it through Moridin
TheorylandGod (2:31:21 AM): but I like your explanation too
Firseal (2:31:27 AM): Nynaeve and Finn, the two most insanely strong healers you will ever meet, insulated those two wounds
Firseal (2:32:06 AM): But they are also crossing each other, same as Shadar Logoth and the Taint were crossed when Saidin was cleansed.
Firseal (2:32:31 AM): Which means they are mingling, but unlike with that particular instance, they aren't cancling each other out
Firseal (2:33:15 AM): Book five, Fires of Heaven - the True Power is accessable to both men and women, and thus is complete in a way that neither the Taint nor the SL miasma were.
Firseal (2:33:35 AM): But if they are mixing in there, you have both components, isolated enough that they aren't killing him
Firseal (2:33:44 AM): And still connected enough to be accessable
TheorylandGod (2:34:04 AM): so you think he could access both at the same time?
TheorylandGod (2:34:16 AM): enabling him to close the bore properly
Firseal (2:34:17 AM): I think it isn't so much accessing both I think...
Firseal (2:34:59 AM): How to put it? I think when Saidin was tainted, the True Power only connected a component of itself with it. That is, that within the dark one that reflected Saidin tainted it.
Firseal (2:35:52 AM): The rest somehow ended up with Mordeth - who the hell knows how - and eventually on that dagger. Once isolated together, its the True Power again. Its like separating hydrogen and oxygen, then putting them back into water
TheorylandGod (2:35:56 AM): You are going to have to write this out in detail. I get but don't get (I haven't slept much recently)
Firseal (2:35:58 AM): The taint alone killed.
Firseal (2:36:07 AM): So did the miasma
Firseal (2:36:28 AM): Combined... they still kill, but they are also the True Power, rather than component parts
Firseal (2:36:57 AM): Lews Therin - "Couldn't seal the Dark One without touching him with Saidin"
Firseal (2:37:32 AM): Well. If Rand is a walking Well of the True Power, he can use that. What does it matter if the power he uses is tainted, if he uses the Dark One's own power?
TheorylandGod (2:38:00 AM): Right...which is why if you are correct, I think that is how Rand will seal the Bore...he doesn't have to touch the Dark One, he has it in him, therefore bypassing the possibility of tainting Saidin once more
Firseal (2:38:19 AM): Or of the Dark One denying him the power
Firseal (2:39:34 AM): Which, short of there being some sort of Creator sourced power (I believe I am on record believing that to be bullshit. If not, get me a record.) its how I see it going
TheorylandGod (2:40:52 AM): great idea - go post it
Firseal (2:41:49 AM): Post? An actual theory?
Firseal (2:41:56 AM): What is this, 2003?
TheorylandGod (2:42:11 AM): lol - I meant on the forums
Firseal (2:42:18 AM): I know what you meant
TheorylandGod (2:42:18 AM): go create a thread on this - it's a fun idea
TheorylandGod (2:42:20 AM):
Firseal (2:42:23 AM): The point remains
TheorylandGod (2:42:31 AM): yeah - just go do it
TheorylandGod (2:42:33 AM): think about it later
Firseal (2:42:42 AM): On the other hand, I could be a bastard and just post this conversation.

And so I did.

Terez
10-29-2009, 01:53 AM
Spoiler tags are no longer necessary on this forum!

Firseal
10-29-2009, 02:42 AM
Spoiler tags are no longer necessary on this forum!

They were more fun, though.

Terez
10-29-2009, 02:42 AM
Easily amused, eh? :)

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 08:55 AM
I think this theory can easily be put to the test, if I am understanding it correctly. And I know just the person who would be willing to do the test, based on her little collection of items in a plain box LOL

Have Cadsuane still Rand, and see if he can still channel ;)

Interesting theory, I will have to do a re-read though before I can support it.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 09:00 AM
I don't buy it. It makes far more sense if he pulled it through his link to Moridin and it was something that the DO wanted to have happen (the whole reason he broke Semi out was to set it up).

That's my take on it.

bowlwoman
10-29-2009, 09:20 AM
I don't buy it. It makes far more sense if he pulled it through his link to Moridin and it was something that the DO wanted to have happen (the whole reason he broke Semi out was to set it up).

That's my take on it.

Yeah, I look at it more like Rand piggybacking off of Moridin's wifi connection. Moridin pays for the ISP, but Rand's proximity means he can access it once he gets around the firewall.

Mort
10-29-2009, 10:06 AM
Yeah my initial thought was that Rand piggybacked the TP from Moridin. I wonder if Moridin felt it? Maybe even involuntarily seized the TP and wondered what the hell was going on? ;)

Maybe the wound at his side made him susceptible to touch and use the TP, being already affected by it, but I think he got the wiring from Moridin :)

It doesn't rule out Rand using the TP as a protecting layer between the DO/Bore and the actual re-sealment though, actually, I think that is exactly what needs to happen given LTTs coment about the failure was that they touched the DO directly with Saidin.

The Rand vs Moridin showdown is gonna be legen... wait for it.. ! ;)

Edit: Actually, I wonder if the showdown will actually be a showdown or if it's just gonna be a battle of wills. Ishamael/Moridin is a reasoner. He's in it because he feels it makes philosophical sense to him, not as much by greed, envy etc like the rest of the forsaken. It's a bit far fetched that Rand will be able to reason Moridin that Rand's way is the best action. How he would go about doing that, beats me. But I would like to see it, even though it doesn't seem very probable at the moment.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-29-2009, 10:55 AM
The Rand vs Moridin showdown is gonna be legen... wait for it.. ! ;)


LOLOL Egwene's announcement to the rebels about the tower reunification, after her re-raising, ends with her saying something like the tower will be LEGENDARY! I cracked a smile thinking, hey, this guy is a Barney fan. (from How I Met Your Mother on ABC, for those unfamiliar)

:p

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:05 AM
LOLOL Egwene's announcement to the rebels about the tower reunification, after her re-raising, ends with her saying something like the tower will be LEGENDARY! I cracked a smile thinking, hey, this guy is a Barney fan. (from How I Met Your Mother on ABC, for those unfamiliar)

:p

I thought the same thing :)

Overall, good speeches in this book, more than one time that I got a few goosebumps. First was probably when Rand was being "logical" with Nynaeve. Good speech, even though it may be flawed. Then Egwenes about the legendary bit, and maybe a few others, and then Rands while sitting on his mountain top.

Btw... I liked the "the blind man standing on his grave" part. I think it was references earlier in the book by someone (Maybe tuon?) but then were written down whole at the end of the book. Seems like a new prophecy we havn't heard before.

greatwolf
10-29-2009, 11:07 AM
Edit: Actually, I wonder if the showdown will actually be a showdown or if it's just gonna be a battle of wills. Ishamael/Moridin is a reasoner. He's in it because he feels it makes philosophical sense to him, not as much by greed, envy etc like the rest of the forsaken. It's a bit far fetched that Rand will be able to reason Moridin that Rand's way is the best action. How he would go about doing that, beats me. But I would like to see it, even though it doesn't seem very probable at the moment.

Good thinking.

I think it would be better if the Dragon defeated Ishy's philosopy before the end. Except there is no ending! In WoT, time is circular so if Rand wins, everything is doomed to repetiton and Rand/LT really have nothing to prove to Ishy.

I think.

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:28 AM
Good thinking.

I think it would be better if the Dragon defeated Ishy's philosopy before the end. Except there is no ending! In WoT, time is circular so if Rand wins, everything is doomed to repetiton and Rand/LT really have nothing to prove to Ishy.

I think.

It's a little like with Rand. Rand were on the brink of believing that ending the pattern was a good option. Probably what the DO wanted from him all along. But Rand remembered that he did all this out of love, that he may one day be reborn and meet the ones he had lost.

A bit the same with Moridin. Rand says to Moridin when they meet: "Is that what made you turn to his side? You were always so ful of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

We'll see if Rand can change Moridins mind, but frankly, it probably has gone to far for Moridin to change now. Maybe if Rand could prove that he actually could destroy the DO, although why Rand would even try to convince Moridin is beyond me.

They will merge, and one of them will die. I don't think that will happen by simply killing the other though. Even Moridin is unsure of what would happen if one killed the other with their bond in effect.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 11:31 AM
Clearly, the ending will be after Moridin and Rand battle, Moridin reveals that he is Rand's father (actually LTT's father), Rand screams "That's not true...THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!" and throws himself off the platform. Then Rand later confronts Elan and turns him back to the Light after Elan tosses the DO back into the Pit of Doom while being attacked by purple DO lightening.

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:36 AM
Clearly, the ending will be after Moridin and Rand battle, Moridin reveals that he is Rand's father (actually LTT's father), Rand screams "That's not true...THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!" and throws himself off the platform. Then Rand later confronts Elan and turns him back to the Light after Elan tosses the DO back into the Pit of Doom while being attacked by purple DO lightening.

Hey! You've been peaking in my notes, haven't you!?

bowlwoman
10-29-2009, 11:38 AM
Clearly, the ending will be after Moridin and Rand battle, Moridin reveals that he is Rand's father (actually LTT's father), Rand screams "That's not true...THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!" and throws himself off the platform. Then Rand later confronts Elan and turns him back to the Light after Elan tosses the DO back into the Pit of Doom while being attacked by purple DO lightening.

Wow...that sounds like an epic ending! I'd love to see something like that, but alas, I think your creativity is just something that won't translate to pop culture or any form of literary medium.

4Alethinos
10-31-2009, 01:05 PM
Oh my, just what we need. Star Wars meets TWoT.

I do not see Moridin being turned to the Light in his present existence. Let him die and get reincarnated on the next turn of the Wheel. However, that is way too serious of a response to the gag posts.

"Not everything demands an answer." :p

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:17 PM
Dav.

You forget the bit about the beggar children in the Rahad taking out all the dreadlords by throwing rocks at them.

ZaderGru
11-02-2009, 10:53 PM
Firseal. Has there ever been discussions on the
boards about a connection between the taint and the true power. I know the Great Lord is a connection, but could the taint have been a weaker
or distilled version of the True Power.


"If a man runs with the foxes and hunts with the hounds, what does he do when he does neither?"

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 11:36 PM
There are lots of interesting theorizing to be done about Moridin. Especially after the dream chapter in tGS i like these suggestions of Moridin possibly turning. In said chapter he appeared tired also. Though, although he seemed disinterested and tired in regards to most topics, when talk of the Pattern ending for good came, he was genuinely happy...

But the possibilities for the Light for Rand if Moridin turned. The sealing of the Bore; with the True Power, with Moridin's nefarious knowledge, etc.

Also a thought. What if Moridin is a Fisher as well. That is if Rand sat down and played, to him the Fisher piece perhaps would be Moridin then. :p

Re: Cyclic time. If Rand won by killing the Dark One or a seamless sealing / no patch, then a new cycle might start, where no sealings occured at all and no Bores were made.

lurk
11-03-2009, 06:39 AM
Hmm I still think the Moridin-Rand battle will end in a bloody melee. The forewarning of Moridin playing Sharah (in book 6 or 7) does that for me.

Terez
11-03-2009, 06:51 AM
Book 8 actually. The bloody melee was what happened in the Age of Legends, and failed painfully. (That option only works if you don't get trapped first.) Possibly he is referring to previous battles with Rand, but I think that the 'trapped' comment is a reference to the Strike, even though Ishamael was only partially trapped.

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE - Deceptive Appearances

The Fisher held his attention, baiting him. Several pieces had varying moves, but only the Fisher’s attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent’s end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha’rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed. Painfully. The bolded bit is what Moridin has done - he has pushed Rand into a corner where he had no choice but to move onto Moridin's color (use the True Power, etc.). Thanks to nameless for pointing that out.

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 07:44 AM
Book 8 actually. The bloody melee was what happened in the Age of Legends, and failed painfully. (That option only works if you don't get trapped first.) Possibly he is referring to previous battles with Rand, but I think that the 'trapped' comment is a reference to the Strike, even though Ishamael was only partially trapped.

The bolded bit is what Moridin has done - he has pushed Rand into a corner where he had no choice but to move onto Moridin's color (use the True Power, etc.). Thanks to nameless for pointing that out.

I'm new, so I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I've always read that last sentence in the quote as referring to the showdown in the Stone of Tear where Rand killed Ishamael.

Terez
11-03-2009, 08:02 AM
Like I said, it might refer to previous battles with Rand, but the 'trapped' bit makes me think of the Strike. Impossible to say either way, though.

Oh, and welcome to Theoryland. :)

Enigma
11-03-2009, 08:05 AM
It could be a reference to either the AOL war or his death in the stone but from what we have seen of forsaken who are recycled, dying is not a nice experience even one lives again.

Saying that the attempt had failed painfully suggests to me that he was talking about when Rand killed him. I don't think that Ishamael suffered any paid in the actual sealing.

Terez
11-03-2009, 08:17 AM
Well, we don't know that he didn't, and his fights with Rand don't seem to fit the 'bloody melee' definition.

In any case, I think it's obvious he doesn't want to try that option again, especially considering that he's linked with Rand now.

The Black Wind
11-03-2009, 08:24 AM
I post this for the sole purpose of ganging up on terez not because I really have anything valuable to contribute. I too thought that Moridin was referring to the stone. ;) :p

Terez
11-03-2009, 08:26 AM
I post this for the sole purpose of ganging up on terez
It's everybody's favorite pastime.

Jokeslayer
11-03-2009, 08:38 AM
It's everybody's favorite pastime.

Awwww.

The Catholics all ganged up on Gallileo, and which of them looks foolish now?

Bonzi77
11-03-2009, 09:10 AM
Like I said, it might refer to previous battles with Rand, but the 'trapped' bit makes me think of the Strike. Impossible to say either way, though.

Oh, and welcome to Theoryland. :)

Thank you. I'm fairly giddy to find a group of people who obsess over this stuff as much as I do.

He mentions the trapped thing before the bloody melee, though. He's working toward a huge global war and the destruction of the universe, I don't think he'd have a problem with a bloody melee in the context of the War of Power.

I guess maybe the Strike on Shayol Gul was the melee he was referring to, but that was more of Lews Therin's panic move than his.