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View Full Version : A mistake or? (SPOILERS OF COURSE)


WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by RJ:

Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.

Originally posted by RJ/BS:

The Gathering Storm
Chapter 61 - A Visit From Verin Sedai

She looked up, meeting Egwene's eyes. "I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep the secrets until the hour of my death."

Maybe Verin left out the 3rd Oath? Why though, when she spilled the beans on so much else.

Mort
10-29-2009, 08:52 AM
I was thinking of that too. Verin probably left the others out because they weren't important right then and there.

Also, all secrets can't be outed in the first book, have to even them out a little :)

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 09:50 AM
Another mistake or something else? This part I am not so sure on, so will need to re-read a few scenes, but anyway:

Did Cadsuane know where Perrin was, because of the Wise Ones/Dreamwalkers? And if so, was she just testing Nynaeve's ability to take instructions? And if not, how did she know Tam was with Perrin?

Mort
10-29-2009, 10:20 AM
Another mistake or something else? This part I am not so sure on, so will need to re-read a few scenes, but anyway:

Did Cadsuane know where Perrin was, because of the Wise Ones/Dreamwalkers? And if so, was she just testing Nynaeve's ability to take instructions? And if not, how did she know Tam was with Perrin?

Verin told her perhaps? Verin knew that Tam now fought with Perrin. If Perrin was out gallivanting with an army, some consisting of Two River folk, chances are that Tam was with him. She could also have gone to the two rivers and looked for Tam, then getting to know that he followed Perrin.

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 11:21 AM
This is the thought process that I'm envisioning happened:

Cadsuane wants to have someone close to Rand to talk to him. She finds out somehow that Tam is still alive, though apparently not from Nynaeve. She also somehow finds out that Tam is with Perrin, so her knowledge must have come after the Battle of Malden, unless she is just an extremely lucky guesser. She also knows that Rand knows where Perrin is, but apparently she herself doesn't know.

Of course, if Cadsuane went to the 2 Rivers, and found out from there that Tam left and where, that would make sense.

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Cadsuane wanted someone close to him to talk about his previous life before the dragon business, one who wasn't caught up in Rands life at the moment, like Nynaeve, Perrin etc. So that meant going back to the two rivers finding any sort of family. The only one left is Tam.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Cadsuane wanted someone close to him to talk about his previous life before the dragon business, one who wasn't caught up in Rands life at the moment, like Nynaeve, Perrin etc. So that meant going back to the two rivers finding any sort of family. The only one left is Tam.

Which ironically worked even if it didn't go the way Caddy planned it. And apaprently Tam's been eating well since he's now "stout".

Mort
10-29-2009, 11:39 AM
Which ironically worked even if it didn't go the way Caddy planned it. And apaprently Tam's been eating well since he's now "stout".
Maybe drinking lots of stout? :)

I liked how Min summed it up while being at Caddys, that they were fools for thinking they could make him do what they wanted, and they all go silent.

I can't wait to see what Rand will do next. What prophecy/visions do we have left of him doing? I believe the whole blind beggar with staff is over with now. Hey, he actually HAD a staff while at Ebou Dar, talk about literal interpretation ;)

Will he go back to Tear and be all like giddy, doing the happy dance and rock&roll etc or will he go back and be like: "Duuudes, I was such a douche! Can you forgive me, pretty please?" *hangs head* ? :D

WinespringBrother
10-29-2009, 11:47 AM
Which ironically worked even if it didn't go the way Caddy planned it. And apaprently Tam's been eating well since he's now "stout".

Maybe he finally settled down after all these years with a nice Domani chick or something ;) Talk about tying up loose ends LOL

Davian93
10-29-2009, 11:49 AM
Maybe he finally settled down after all these years with a nice Domani chick or something ;) Talk about tying up loose ends LOL

God, I hope not. That could send Rand over the edge again when he realizes that Dad replaced his Mom. Will Rand be able to handle it?

the silent speaker
10-29-2009, 01:39 PM
It could be that Verin only told Egwene one of the oaths, as that was the one most relevant to their chat.

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I agree I think that is only one of the 3 oaths, not 2

The Black Wind
10-29-2009, 06:35 PM
I wonder if Tam will stick with Rand from now on or if he'll head back to Perrin's camp. :confused:

Belazamon
10-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Maybe Verin left out the 3rd Oath? Why though, when she spilled the beans on so much else.
I guess I'm not really sure which part you think was a mistake...?

Zaela Sedai
10-29-2009, 07:19 PM
I wonder if Tam will stick with Rand from now on or if he'll head back to Perrin's camp. :confused:

I'm guessing Rand and Perrin will be together now...

and I'm guessing the whole Perrin meeting Galad and Morgase being "found" will be the prolouge of the next book? I won't be satisfied not actually SEEING that happen.

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 07:39 AM
I guess I'm not really sure which part you think was a mistake...?

The way Verin spoke, it implied to me that she was divulging everything, including all the oaths she gave to the Shadow, yet she only listed 2 (or possibly 1, but I think 2) Oaths. Yet Galina thought to herself about the 3 Shadow Oaths she took, so there seemed to be a possible discrepancy.

Sarevok
10-30-2009, 10:43 AM
The way Verin spoke, it implied to me that she was divulging everything, including all the oaths she gave to the Shadow, yet she only listed 2 (or possibly 1, but I think 2) Oaths. Yet Galina thought to herself about the 3 Shadow Oaths she took, so there seemed to be a possible discrepancy.
I actually sounded to me like the only reason she mentioned the oath was to explain why she'd just poisoned herself.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 10:45 AM
It read to me like just 1 of the 3 BA Oaths.

There must be 3 as there is no difference in the Binding Effect of the Oath Rod and the frozen face result of it. Verin's oath seemed merely to be one of "We can't betray the DO unless its the last hour of our life." That's 1 Oath, not 2 or 3.

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 11:14 AM
It read to me like just 1 of the 3 BA Oaths.

There must be 3 as there is no difference in the Binding Effect of the Oath Rod and the frozen face result of it. Verin's oath seemed merely to be one of "We can't betray the DO unless its the last hour of our life." That's 1 Oath, not 2 or 3.

It occurred to me that "Betray the Great Lord" and Not give up my secrets" were 2 different Oaths. Those could certainly be considered to be 2 separate promises.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 11:18 AM
Maybe he finally settled down after all these years with a nice Domani chick or something ;) Talk about tying up loose ends LOL

How about settling down with Alliandre in Ghealdan? She's young, single and a ruler of nation next to Two Rivers. Tam + Alliandre? :eek:

Davian93
10-30-2009, 11:18 AM
It occurred to me that "Betray the Great Lord" and Not give up my secrets" were 2 different Oaths. Those could certainly be considered to be 2 separate promises.

They could very well be but we know there HAS to be 3 Oaths to make the AS appearance match. If you look at the other Oaths there are caveats in there...the "Not give up my secrets" could just be an extension of "Betraying the Great Lord".

For Example: "Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister."

Lots of explanation there but still just one Oath even if there are several exemptions also listed in the Oath.

the silent speaker
10-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I think they have to be parts of the same Oath. Otherwise, Verin did betray the Great Lord, and the "hour of death" loophole only applies to the divulging secrets Oath. The other two Oaths are probably in her extensive notes.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 02:15 PM
I think they have to be parts of the same Oath. Otherwise, Verin did betray the Great Lord, and the "hour of death" loophole only applies to the divulging secrets Oath. The other two Oaths are probably in her extensive notes.

Very good point.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 05:47 PM
I think they have to be parts of the same Oath. Otherwise, Verin did betray the Great Lord, and the "hour of death" loophole only applies to the divulging secrets Oath. The other two Oaths are probably in her extensive notes.
But as Egwene pointed out, the "will not betray the Great Lord" oath had a loophole that any normal Darkfriend could never even conceive of utilizing.

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 09:42 PM
I have a feeling that one of the other Darkfriend Oaths is to obey Darkfriends that are placed above you.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:44 PM
I have a feeling that one of the other Darkfriend Oaths is to obey Darkfriends that are placed above you.

I don't think they need an Oath for that. Its just common sense as not doing so is a good way to die a painful death.

Zaela Sedai
10-30-2009, 09:46 PM
I tend to agree with Seg, otherwise you'd see them going after one another more like the Chosen do until Nae'blis is chosen

Terez
10-30-2009, 09:47 PM
Dom just pointed out a doozie at 13th Depository that I can't believe I missed:

Rand tells Harine that saidin is cleansed, and she is reluctant to believe him.

Harine was at the cleansing!

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:49 PM
Dom just pointed out a doozie at 13th Depository that I can't believe I missed:

Rand tells Harine that saidin is cleansed, and she is reluctant to believe him.

Harine was at the cleansing!

Yeah, but she doesn't really know what Rand did other than destroy an old city. Also, there's a political aspect to her denial. She'd have to make a major change to Sea Folk culture and her position isn't the strongest as a new leader.

Still, that scene really pissed me off. Poor Rand, nobody believes he cleansed Saidin. Not Logain, not Harine, nor either Tower...just sad.

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 09:50 PM
Perhaps that is a mistake, but don't others who were there doubt also still, like Merise (or at least they aren't 100% sure)

Terez
10-30-2009, 09:50 PM
Yeah, but she doesn't really know what Rand did other than destroy an old city.
She knows exactly what Rand did - it was announced to everyone in the party.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:52 PM
She knows exactly what Rand did - it was announced to everyone in the party.

Again, she (like others) never channeld Saidin before and after so she only has Rand's word (and he's biased in her mind) Plus the above political considerations of admitting it.

Terez
10-30-2009, 09:53 PM
Yeah, but it's obvious from that scene that she supposedly had no idea what Rand was talking about. It's definitely a glaring error.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:54 PM
Yeah, but it's obvious from that scene that she supposedly had no idea what Rand was talking about. It's definitely a glaring error.

I have to reread the scene. I don't doubt it though.

Major Whoopsy by BS.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 10:16 PM
I just reread that chapter. Yeah, major Whoopsy. I hate when mistakes like that are made.

Another thought along the same lines. Why the hell is Rand using Ships to bring grain and other foodstuffs when he has hundreds of Channelers who can make gateways at his disposal? What's the point of wasting his Sea Folk ships like that?

Surely he is smart enough to come up with the same supply systems that both Elayne and Egwene have used.

Marie Curie 7
10-31-2009, 02:39 PM
A couple of other mistakes that I noticed…

How did the Choedan Kal access key shrink? When they were used before, it was noted that they were about a foot tall. For example:

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Rand folded himself to the ground cross-legged in front of her as she produced the two access keys, smooth white statues a foot tall, each holding a clear sphere in one upraised hand. The figure of a bearded man in robes, she handed to him. That of a robed woman, she set on the ground at her feet. The faces on those figures were serene and strong and wise with years.

But in TGS, Rand is able to carry the male access key in his pocket. It seems like it would have to be a very big coat pocket, lol.

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 49 - Just Another Man

Last night, Rand had listened to them at one of the campfires. They'd welcomed him in, fed him, never asking who he was. He'd kept the dragon on his hand hidden and the access key carefully tucked in his coat pocket, looking at that fire burning down to coals.

And this mistake is rather small, but I noticed it when I was rereading the chapter last night.

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 46 - To Be Forged Again

"What do you want to do with the sisters from your camp?" Siuan asked. "They're starting to wonder."

"Tell them to gather in front of the Sunset Gate," Egwene said. "Have them stand in ranks by Ajah, with Sitters in a line at the front. Once I am finished with the ceremony, I will greet them and formally accept their apology for their rebellion and welcome them back into the Tower."

The Sunset Gate is on the west side of the Tower. But then when Egwene goes out to greet them, they are on the east side of the Tower:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 46 - To Be Forged Again

Before long, they reached the Tower's Great Square, on the east side of the building. The square was filled - as per her orders - by women in ranks by Ajah. Egwene had chosen this position because of the tall steps leading up to the Tower, topped by a spacious landing. She stood there, back to the majestically carved doors. It was a perfect location from which to address a crowd.

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:46 PM
He did say that Rand had to modify his coat pocket to accommodate the access key.

Marie Curie 7
10-31-2009, 02:50 PM
He did say that Rand had to modify his coat pocket to accommodate the access key.

Yes, I know. But it seems a bit of an exaggeration to consider even altering a pocket to hold a foot-tall statue. ~shrug~ It bugged me.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 02:52 PM
I just reread that chapter. Yeah, major Whoopsy. I hate when mistakes like that are made.

Another thought along the same lines. Why the hell is Rand using Ships to bring grain and other foodstuffs when he has hundreds of Channelers who can make gateways at his disposal? What's the point of wasting his Sea Folk ships like that?

Surely he is smart enough to come up with the same supply systems that both Elayne and Egwene have used.

I could be incorrect, but my take is that the strength of the Aes Sedai and Asha'man at this point is almost entirely focused on directly countering the forces of the DO. Using Sea Folk vessels isn't as neat of a solution as transporting supplies via Gateways, but spinning and maintaining Gateways is tiring work, and the strength of channelers is better allocated towards fighting the DO.

That is how I deem Rand views the issue. The Sea Folk have no practical value in the Last Battle save for using their ships for some purpose. That purpose is transporting foodstuffs. Tarmon Gai'don won't be a naval battle. :cool:

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:57 PM
Yes, I know. But it seems a bit of an exaggeration to consider even altering a pocket to hold a foot-tall statue. ~shrug~ It bugged me.

Not totally disagreeing with you, just playing devil's advocate:

Assume that "coats" extend well past the waist to mid-thigh at least...maybe a bit of flair past the waistline (fashion diva taking over).

I know that I am roughly Rand's height (6'4"). I have a Barbour hunting jacket that extends to mid-thigh which has pockets (inside) that are easily large enough to accommodate a 1' x 4" cylindrical object - especially at a diagonal in the pocket.

Just sayin' :)

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:58 PM
I could be incorrect, but my take is that the strength of the Aes Sedai and Asha'man at this point is almost entirely focused on directly countering the forces of the DO. Using Sea Folk vessels isn't as neat of a solution as transporting supplies via Gateways, but spinning and maintaining Gateways is tiring work, and the strength of channelers is better allocated towards fighting the DO.

That is how I deem Rand views the issue. The Sea Folk have no practical value in the Last Battle save for using their ships for some purpose. That purpose is transporting foodstuffs. Tarmon Gai'don won't be a naval battle. :cool:

This

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:38 PM
Here's a thread from 13th Depository discussing errors:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=159

And a copy/paste of a post I made there:


Another thing that is weird - in Egwene's point of view, it's mentioned that the quorum for deposing an Amyrlin was 11 because Elaida had disbanded an Ajah, and therefore there were fewer Sitters to be called. But we know that Elaida followed the 'bare minimum' of the law when she deposed Siuan, and that the Sitters for the Ajah from which the Amyrlin was raised need not be called. There were 10 Sitters out of the original 21 who were not called to that Sitting, including the three Blue Sitters:

3 Blues
5 Ajah Head plants with the rebels
Janya (with the rebels)
Seaine (the only one not called that stayed in the Tower)

So, I don't see how it could be that Elaida changed the rules. She was a Sitter herself at the time, but that detail doesn't fit the explanation that was given:


TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 46 - To Be Forged Again

...eleven Sitters. Not enough to raise an Amyrlin by the old laws of the Tower - but those had been revised with Elaida's disbanding of the Blue. Fewer Sitters meant fewer women needed to raise an Amyrlin, and now only eleven were required. It would have to do.
It could be that Elaida is the one that added the bit about the Sitters from the Ajah from which the Amyrlin is raised not needing to be called, but that doesn't make sense either, with that explanation, and with the knowledge that Elaida followed the 'bare minimum' of the law.

In any case, I was right at least about Egwene being raised by 11 Tower Sitters, with no rebels involved. http://209.85.48.9/html/emoticons/smile.gif

Marie Curie 7
10-31-2009, 08:16 PM
Here's a thread from 13th Depository discussing errors:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=159


FYI, you can't see that thread unless you're a registered user at the 13th Depository. I don't think you can read the forums as a guest any more. When it was originally set up you could, but at some point they closed even reading of threads to lurkers - you have to be a member even to read them (unless I'm doing something wrong, of course).

Terez
10-31-2009, 08:48 PM
Yeah I know - Tam already pointed that out to me a couple of days ago. But Dom told me you registered a while back. :p

Marie Curie 7
11-01-2009, 12:47 PM
Yeah I know - Tam already pointed that out to me a couple of days ago. But Dom told me you registered a while back. :p

Well, the point is that nobody reading this thread can read your link unless they join 13th Depository, so I mentioned it in case somebody thought that there was a problem with your link.

And yes, I joined at some point prior to the book release, but I was rather annoyed to have to do so - I only have time to post at Theoryland, so I don't plan on posting at 13th Depository (so it seems kind of silly to have to join), but I do occasionally enjoy reading threads on other forums.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 03:40 PM
I noticed 3 or 5 or so glaring errors where the wrong word was used. There were other things as well like a word too much or a sentence was contructed in a very wrong way. I haven't noticed this much of these kind of errors in the previous books. Perhaps Harriet is out of touch now, lost a bit of interest perhaps. And Brandon is clearly not very meticulous in his writing, almost the opposite of RJ there I think.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 05:30 PM
Theres glaring errors in previous books too... i.e. wrong names, calling saidar sadin....etc

Terez
11-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Yup, I have a lot of first edition books with the errors in them - they're generally corrected in later printings (like the one that said Morgase was Daughter Heir, for instance).

Davian93
11-01-2009, 05:48 PM
Yup, I have a lot of first edition books with the errors in them - they're generally corrected in later printings (like the one that said Morgase was Daughter Heir, for instance).

Exactly. Its a 275 K book. There are bound to be minor errors that you don't see until its printed, regardless of how many times its checked. I thought they did a fairly good job of keeping that in check this time around...especially considering the new author.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 06:00 PM
Exactly. Its a 275 K book. There are bound to be minor errors that you don't see until its printed, regardless of how many times its checked. I thought they did a fairly good job of keeping that in check this time around...especially considering the new author.
Hm, perhaps. But the errors I'm talking about any fresh set of eyes looking would've caught all, I think. These errors were not WoT related, they were more like typos, that should've been caught in a proof reading. Sure it's minor, but they do substract from the quality I expect, rather than add.

Terez
11-01-2009, 06:03 PM
The WoT-related errors are worse, because they're harder to fix - like the scene with Harine, and the Law for deposing/raising an Amyrlin.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 06:13 PM
The WoT-related errors are worse, because they're harder to fix - like the scene with Harine, and the Law for deposing/raising an Amyrlin.

I dont think eithre of them CAN be fixed to be honest. It would require a complete rewrite of both scenes.