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creepybob
10-29-2009, 03:54 PM
...the Black Tower? It's like an AS black hole, they go in and never come out.

It's easy to ignore the missing sisters now, but that was the biggest mystery this book for me.

I mean, they're not ALL darkfriends there, so how is it that the bonders have been detained?

Neilbert
10-29-2009, 04:26 PM
Nothing good.

bowlwoman
10-29-2009, 04:31 PM
My guess is that the BT is where we'll see some 13 on 13 action in the next book. :eek:

creepybob
10-29-2009, 04:42 PM
My guess is that the BT is where we'll see some 13 on 13 action in the next book. :eek:

That's an interesting thought, I thought that threat would continue to be a boogie man to hold over our heads.

Though the 13/13 think requires 13 BA, or DF wilders. I don't remember if it can be done w/ men, i thought it required a circle that included myrdraal.

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 04:53 PM
My guess is that the BT is where we'll see some 13 on 13 action in the next book. :eek:

Has the effectiveness of this ever been confirmed by anyone who wasn't black? Do we have any evidence that it actually works?

Davian93
10-29-2009, 05:02 PM
Has the effectiveness of this ever been confirmed by anyone who wasn't black? Do we have any evidence that it actually works?

Well Egwene knew it in her Accepted test so its considered Canon.

Sheriam's "confirmation" is worthless but the Supergirls were threatened with it when they were captured in the Stone so there's a pretty good chance its real.

That would be cool to finally see.

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Well Egwene knew it in her Accepted test so its considered Canon.

Sheriam's "confirmation" is worthless but the Supergirls were threatened with it when they were captured in the Stone so there's a pretty good chance its real.

That would be cool to finally see.

So no solid proof. It could be a giant bluff designed to make people give up info rather than let themselves be turned.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 05:11 PM
So no solid proof. It could be a giant bluff designed to make people give up info rather than let themselves be turned.

I kind of doubt it. I'd have to check the interviews (Terez, little help?) but I think its pretty solid...we just haven't seen it yet. I always wondered why RJ never used it despite its revelation in TDR.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 05:19 PM
I kind of doubt it. I'd have to check the interviews (Terez, little help?) but I think its pretty solid...we just haven't seen it yet. I always wondered why RJ never used it despite its revelation in TDR.

If it is possible, we don't know the costs of such an act. Do the Myrdraal survive the turning? If not than how many can the shadow spare for more Dreadlords? If they do survive than how long does it take to turn someone? How effective are they afterward? Are they incapable of betrayal?

...If we do see this in the next book, we'll have a lot of questions to be answered.

I do think it's worth mentioning that if it didn't cost the shadow anything to turn AS, than they'd have systematically turned every AS, Ash'aman, and Wilder they could find.

There's a catch to the 13/13 thing, assuming it exists.

Davian93
10-29-2009, 05:21 PM
If it is possible, we don't know the costs of such an act. Do the Myrdraal survive the turning? If not than how many can the shadow spare for more Dreadlords? If they do survive than how long does it take to turn someone? How effective are they afterward? Are they incapable of betrayal?

...If we do see this in the next book, we'll have a lot of questions to be answered.

I do think it's worth mentioning that if it didn't cost the shadow anything to turn AS, than they'd have systematically turned every AS, Ash'aman, and Wilder they could find.

There's a catch to the 13/13 thing, assuming it exists.

I agree, otherwise its not exactly hard to wrangle up 13 BA and 13 Myrdraal.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 05:22 PM
I agree, otherwise its not exactly hard to wrangle up 13 BA and 13 Myrdraal.

I think they lose the Myrdraal...I don't know why it makes sense to me, but that still sticks in my mind.

Jokeslayer
10-29-2009, 05:30 PM
I kind of doubt it. I'd have to check the interviews (Terez, little help?) but I think its pretty solid...we just haven't seen it yet. I always wondered why RJ never used it despite its revelation in TDR.

Well, after reading the following, I'd have to say it is true. (Not the content of the answer itself, but just that any answer exists. No reason for aqny of that if it's all just a bluff. Shame, since I've always felt the thing was rather stupid, or at least it was stupid that nobody ever used it.) There may be better quotes, I stopped looking after this, seems pointless.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

bowlwoman
10-29-2009, 05:32 PM
Though the 13/13 think requires 13 BA, or DF wilders. I don't remember if it can be done w/ men, i thought it required a circle that included myrdraal.

Here's the relevant passage:

Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. “This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is—a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things.” Egwene shuddered. “Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know—Light send it has not been done!—since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords—Darkfriends who could channel—weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow.”

In Egwene's Accepted Test Level 2, Rand just told her "Fades and Dreadlords." In Level 3, there were 13 BA and 13 Myrddraal in the storeroom waiting to turn her, but that would make sense for the 13 Dreadlords to be BA, since they were in the WT, and as far as we knew, there were few to no male channelers. Now that the BT is in play with (most likely) a majority of them being DF, I think it's reasonable to assume they could do the turning with 13 Fades, 7 BA and 6 DF Asha'man.

creepybob
10-29-2009, 10:40 PM
Here's the relevant passage:



In Egwene's Accepted Test Level 2, Rand just told her "Fades and Dreadlords." In Level 3, there were 13 BA and 13 Myrddraal in the storeroom waiting to turn her, but that would make sense for the 13 Dreadlords to be BA, since they were in the WT, and as far as we knew, there were few to no male channelers. Now that the BT is in play with (most likely) a majority of them being DF, I think it's reasonable to assume they could do the turning with 13 Fades, 7 BA and 6 DF Asha'man.

the number 13 only has significance in that it is the maximum size of a homogeneous female circle. Otherwise the number is arbitrary. That's where I base my "female only" theory.

Terez
10-30-2009, 02:56 AM
I kind of doubt it. I'd have to check the interviews (Terez, little help?)
No. I showed you how to use the database. :p

He did say that he hasn't abandoned the idea, so we might see it.

Also, I totally expect Egwene to be involved in the Black Tower showdown now that we know the ones who went to bond Warders haven't yet returned.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 08:51 AM
No. I showed you how to use the database. :p

He did say that he hasn't abandoned the idea, so we might see it.

Also, I totally expect Egwene to be involved in the Black Tower showdown now that we know the ones who went to bond Warders haven't yet returned.

Worth a shot. I'm lazy, T.

I expect would be used at some point. Otherwise, why introduce it at all? The Sisters at the BT make sense for such a turning. Imagine the look on Pevara's face...

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-30-2009, 09:36 AM
with what we know now of Verin, this might have a little more weight now...she mentions shielding here, but the comment of "tradition" has a different skew now that we know she was BA and clearly investigating EVERYTHING about them.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 11 - Lessons and Teachers
Verin barely kept from shivering herself. They could not have linked sooner, not unless Alanna was suggesting they should have linked before she bonded him. Verin was not sure what the result of that would have been. In any case, it had been a series of extremely bad moments, from discovering that they could not cut him off from the True Source to the contemptuous ease with which he had shielded them, snapping their connections to saidar like thread. Both of them at once. Remarkable. How many would it take to shield and hold him? The full thirteen? That was only tradition, but it might be necessary with him. At any rate, that was speculation for another day. "And then there is the matter of his amnesty."

creepybob
10-30-2009, 12:50 PM
Worth a shot. I'm lazy, T.

I expect would be used at some point. Otherwise, why introduce it at all? The Sisters at the BT make sense for such a turning. Imagine the look on Pevara's face...

Is Pevara worth the cost of turning though? Especially since she can just as easily be controlled w/ a compulsive bond.

Because there HAS to be a cost to the shadow for a turning.