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Callandor
10-30-2009, 02:34 AM
And everyone knows exactly what.

That is all.

And I don't even mind being wrong on a few other theories.

So:

Suck it, you wool-headed deniers.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:06 AM
No quotes?

But yeah, I think everyone knows what you do be talking about. And for yet another thread on the subject....it's almost time for a poll. Have to write a theory right quick though (and HOPEFULLY you will chip in).

Oh, and most people thought Callandor had pretty much played its part in the series. But it looks like it will be important again. :)

Oatman
10-30-2009, 03:13 AM
I still disagree. I'd do a proper write up of my thoughts and opinions but exams are coming and that takes priority.

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:24 AM
See? I told you...

Mort
10-30-2009, 03:48 AM
I can honestly say I don't know what you're talking about, why should I remember what anyone has said a million years ago? :)

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:49 AM
It's okay Mort - you voted on the right side. ;)

Davian93
10-30-2009, 07:45 AM
Is Callandor referring to his support of Terez's Construct Theory???

Sarevok
10-30-2009, 10:46 AM
Is Callandor referring to his support of Terez's Construct Theory???
ROFL

Are you serious? :eek:

Davian93
10-30-2009, 10:47 AM
ROFL

Are you serious? :eek:

Nah, just trying to get a rise out of Callie.


Good to have him back.

FelixPax
10-30-2009, 10:50 AM
I can honestly say I don't know what you're talking about, why should I remember what anyone has said a million years ago? :)

Nor do have any idea what is being refer to here?
You thought Verin is/was Black Ajah too? :D

Sarevok
10-30-2009, 10:55 AM
Nor do have any idea what is being refer to here?

You have the excuse of it being before your time (iirc)

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 12:16 PM
Is Callandor referring to his support of Terez's Construct Theory???

Lol... that's what you get for disappearing for so long.

I was an avid reader before I ever had the nerve to post on this site. Though I may be young I knew exactly what Callandor was referring to before I even opened this thread.

Nice theory. I'm glad it tested true.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-30-2009, 12:23 PM
I was an avid reader before I ever had the nerve to post on this site.

Is this place really THAT scary? :D

Ivhon
10-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Is this place really THAT scary? :D

Can be. Ive been here forever and rarely summon the courage to post here.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 01:06 PM
It scares me sometimes too...especially as it pertains to holding on to old information...going back and reading stuff I posted almost ten years ago is rather painful.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 01:07 PM
It scares me sometimes too...especially as it pertains to holding on to old information...going back and reading stuff I posted almost ten years ago is rather painful.

Wow, you've been here 10 years? Were you one of the ones that signed up when Frenzy founded the place?

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
Oh that Frenzy!

Isabel
10-30-2009, 03:44 PM
And everyone knows exactly what.

That is all.

And I don't even mind being wrong on a few other theories.

So:

Suck it, you wool-headed deniers.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

How can you be right, if it was never specified in RJ's notes? :) That means RJ didn't exclude either of them, so both are true. And people can just believe what they want to believe.

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:46 PM
Same goes for most things, Isa. That's why so many people believe things that are obviously untrue - doesn't mean there's not plenty of evidence for them being untrue. Climate change denial is a good example.

Isabel
10-30-2009, 03:50 PM
Same goes for most things, Isa. That's why so many people believe things that are obviously untrue - doesn't mean there's not plenty of evidence for them being untrue. Climate change denial is a good example.

Terez: RJ created the wheel of time, so what he intented with the book is the truth. We have quotes in which RJ specificly said that he intended the LTT thing to be seen in two ways.
Now we have Brandon saying that RJ didn't specify in the notes what the voice was. And that everyone can believe what they want. That means both are correct. (ofcourse assuming that the quote by Brandon was correct)

Terez
10-30-2009, 03:53 PM
Terez: RJ created the wheel of time, so what he intented with the book is the truth.
What is your point?

We have quotes in which RJ specificly said that he intended the LTT thing to be seen in two ways.
Yes, I know - this was back when the vast majority of people saw it as Lews Therin being 'real' and saw no reason to question it. OBVIOUSLY he intended it to be seen both ways. Doesn't mean both ways were true - just that they were both arguable.

Now we have Brandon saying that RJ didn't specify in the notes what the voice was. And that everyone can believe what they want. That means both are correct. (ofcourse assuming that the quote by Brandon was correct)
Just because RJ didn't reveal the truth doesn't mean that neither interpretation is correct.

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Really? Aren't there enough threads on this topic? :p

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:00 PM
Is Callandor referring to his support of Terez's Construct Theory???
That hurts (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=84). :(

Terez
10-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Shut it. Isabel used the higher membership in her faction as an argument several times, because you weren't accepting members. :p Not that we accepted that as an argument, lol. Callandor and I have both put years of effort into arguing the theory - about 3 years for me, and about 4 years for him. It's not our fault you were gone all that time.

And according to the rsfwrj faq, the person that argued it first was a person named Jean DuFresne. No idea what his handle was on usenet though.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 06:24 PM
Shut it. Isabel used the higher membership in her faction as an argument several times, because you weren't accepting members. :p Not that we accepted that as an argument, lol. Callandor and I have both put years of effort into arguing the theory - about 3 years for me, and about 4 years for him. It's not our fault you were gone all that time.
Hey, it wasn't even a question of being "gone all that time" - I haven't had a Premie for Ages, and I can't get in to fiddle with anything without it, even preexisting stuff.

And anyway, I wasn't being serious. Just gently reminding people that I've been arguing this for millennia, that's all. :D

Terez
10-30-2009, 06:37 PM
Nah, you didn't argue it any longer than either of us did. It was just longer ago.

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 06:51 PM
Really? Aren't there enough threads on this topic? :p
you've obviously never been around for an Asmodean or Taimendred debate.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 07:01 PM
Nah, you didn't argue it any longer than either of us did. It was just longer ago.:rolleyes:

tworiverswoman
10-30-2009, 07:08 PM
I'm going to have to spend a few days looking through back history to find my posts (luckily I've only been here since 2005) but I WAS RIGHT!

Rand CAN lose, and those quotes from the future are only from a POSSIBLE future!

nyah!

~sniffs haughtilly~

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:15 PM
That hurts (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=84). :(

Sorry Bela. Didn't Callie write the massive thesis on it though? I wasn't trying to disinherit you or anything.


Speaking of which, I've been pending as a member for a while. Could you perhaps confirm my request to join the faction?

Terez
10-30-2009, 09:17 PM
He can't.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:24 PM
He can't.

No Premier membership anymore?

Terez
10-30-2009, 09:27 PM
He said that already. :p And he already used up his free trial about 2 years ago.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:29 PM
He said that already. :p And he already used up his free trial about 2 years ago.

I didn't read the whole thread, just the post I replied too (tree format). I just switched to the normal view to actually see all the posts.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 09:46 PM
Sorry Bela. Didn't Callie write the massive thesis on it though? I wasn't trying to disinherit you or anything.
No worries at all. I may very well have never written a "massive thesis" on the subject. ;)

Speaking of which, I've been pending as a member for a while. Could you perhaps confirm my request to join the faction?
As Terez said... nope. :(

I'm actually gonna ask Tam about this, though. Maybe there's a workaround.

Isabel
10-31-2009, 12:37 AM
Yes, I know - this was back when the vast majority of people saw it as Lews Therin being 'real' and saw no reason to question it. OBVIOUSLY he intended it to be seen both ways. Doesn't mean both ways were true - just that they were both arguable.


Just because RJ didn't reveal the truth doesn't mean that neither interpretation is correct.

You are trying to wiggle your way out of it ;) If Jordan didn't leave notes on what is the case with the voice. That means both are true ;)
Jordan's notes are so extensive, if it's not in it, than it can be seen both ways.


And Brandon says you can believe what ever you want. That means he believes you can still believe either :)

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 12:41 AM
What translation are you doing to Brandon's quote? He said "You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book."

I took it to mean that Robert Jordan never made it explicit IN THE BOOKS...considering he just said that he thought answering would be a spoiler.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:41 AM
You are trying to wiggle your way out of it ;)
haha, no that's obviously you, since most people think construct theory is clearly true, after this book. You're just hanging on to the last tuft of grass on that cliff, like Asmodean.

And of course BS said you can believe whatever you want. That doesn't mean there is no answer to the question - just means that RJ intentionally didn't answer it. I'm not surprised - like I said, you were the one that insisted RJ would answer the question. I was always pretty sure he wouldn't, because it's more fun for him to leave it open. He knew that literature professors 200 years from now would still be debating it. Doesn't mean that both theories are equally viable - just means that the question has to be answered through consideration and debate, rather than easily answered by asking RJ or BS.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:44 AM
What translation are you doing to Brandon's quote? He said "You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book."

I took it to mean that Robert Jordan never made it explicit IN THE BOOKS...considering he just said that he thought answering would be a spoiler.
That's possible. Perhaps you could ask him to clarify?

Isabel
10-31-2009, 12:49 AM
I already posted a question in the question thread to ask him about it ;)

you were the one that insisted RJ would answer the question. I was always pretty sure he wouldn't, because it's more fun for him to leave it open.

Than why are you discussing? If it isn't answereble than why discuss it. I was discussing it, because i thought it has an answer. If you can believe both things, than you can believe both things and no use discussing.

When RJ was alive, it was still possible that he would change his mind and tell us:)

Isabel
10-31-2009, 12:51 AM
That's possible. Perhaps you could ask him to clarify?

Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book."

My question would be, that if it was clear in the notes, than why would brandon say. What I think and you think may be different, so we'll just leave it.?

He could have said that it was in the notes and he knew the answer.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:53 AM
Than why are you discussing? If it isn't answereble than why discuss it.
Because it's like 1000x more fun to prove something (or at least, to establish something as the most likely option) by debate, than it is to get an easy answer. For me, anyway...you don't have to discuss it any more if you don't want to.

I was discussing it, because i thought it has an answer.
It does have an answer. They're just not going to explicitly tell us what it is. ;)

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 12:55 AM
This is before the book is released. He doesn't want to say what it means, doesn't want to give any spoilers, especially since as he says, "there are things about this in the book". So, he says, look, Jordan hasn't been explicit about it in the books, and how we translate it might be different, but there is more information in this book.

Terez
10-31-2009, 01:06 AM
And that information sent people running to construct, at least here. From what admins of other sites have told me, it's never really been much of a debate at other sites, and the debate is specifically associated with Theoryland among those who have been around for some time. They all just accept Rand's interpretation without questioning it much. :)

Isabel
10-31-2009, 01:15 AM
Because it's like 1000x more fun to prove something (or at least, to establish something as the most likely option) by debate, than it is to get an easy answer. For me, anyway...you don't have to discuss it any more if you don't want to.


It does have an answer. They're just not going to explicitly tell us what it is. ;)

I never found it fun to discuss this with you. So if both are true, or Jordan never put it in the notes, than it's no use discussing.

Anyway, we will see what Brandon says about it. And if it wasn't in the notes, than we can ask how Brandon dealt with it in this book.


There are still people believe in LTT being real. Being a small faction doesn't mean that it's not true.

Terez
10-31-2009, 01:52 AM
I never found it fun to discuss this with you. So if both are true, or Jordan never put it in the notes, than it's no use discussing.
For you, maybe. Don't expect me to stop. ;)

There are still people believe in LTT being real. Being a small faction doesn't mean that it's not true.
Good to see you finally figured that out.

Isabel
10-31-2009, 03:17 AM
Good to see you finally figured that out.

You haven't. You still posted it as debunked.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:18 AM
Yah, because most people agree it's debunked. No one claimed before this book that either side was debunked. ;)

Isabel
10-31-2009, 03:21 AM
Yah, because most people agree it's debunked. No one claimed before this book that either side was debunked. ;)

I see you don't understand the meaning of the word debunked.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:22 AM
Oh, I understand it. But some people will hold onto a belief even after it's been debunked if they're strongly attached to that belief - that's just human nature. People believe all sorts of crazy things. ;)

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 03:43 AM
I enjoyed how, as Rand became more insane, Lews Therin became more lucid. The transition to lucidity was very well done. A masterpiece of storytelling.

Terez
10-31-2009, 05:05 AM
That's actually been a theme in the last few books, Lews Therin sounding sane.

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 11:00 AM
I see you don't understand the meaning of the word debunked.
This.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:52 PM
haha, even you said it, Bela. Don't try to deny it now! You didn't use the word 'debunked', but it hardly makes a difference.

Zaela Sedai
10-31-2009, 09:57 PM
YOu can go on and on saying he constructed a "voice" but it was the real LTT's memories and mannerisms coming out of Rand... ESPECIALLY in tGS. I can't gather how anyone one thinks that its Rand's doing in the least... It's past Rand....and past Rand = LTT therefore LTT= real, and now LTT is finally resting in peace...promise fullfilled.

Its always been such a dumb thing to argue anyways, arguing what we think is "real" is like arguing religion. Two ways of thinking the same thing. The only thing ever debunked was the two-soulers faction. Which, yes, I was a part of.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 10:00 PM
anyone else hearing Morpheus right now?

Terez
10-31-2009, 10:03 PM
YOu can go on and on saying he constructed a "voice" but it was the real LTT's memories and mannerisms coming out of Rand... ESPECIALLY in tGS.
Straw man. We never said Rand didn't exhibit the memories and mannerisms of Lews Therin - in fact, that was part of the support for the idea for construct theory, in that you can't draw a proper line between Rand and Lews Therin. Rand gets the memories directly, Rand exhibits new abilities and new personality traits that obviously came from Lews Therin's memories. Lews Therin expresses Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions, and is almost never the actual source of the memories (not counting the ones about Ilyena, which Rand has been suppressing all this time).

Again, most people who disagree with construct theory are the ones that refuse to even try to understand it.

Zaela Sedai
10-31-2009, 10:16 PM
I've read everything, I get it, I just don't agree...I'm not totally on Isa's boat either, I just don't think Rand created this voice, the taint/maddness did if anything.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 01:14 AM
YOu can go on and on saying he constructed a "voice" but it was the real LTT's memories and mannerisms coming out of Rand... ESPECIALLY in tGS. I can't gather how anyone one thinks that its Rand's doing in the least... It's past Rand....and past Rand = LTT therefore LTT= real, and now LTT is finally resting in peace...promise fullfilled.

One of the core parts of the theory is that the memories are real. I state it so expressly (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2310):

Through the suppression of emotions, of the memories from Lews Therin, the stress of being the Dragon Reborn, and general taint madness, Rands personality has, for lack of better terms, fractured into two personalities. One is himself, Rand alThor. The other is what Rand has come to call Lews Therin. This second personality, while based off of genuine memories from Lews Therin, is nevertheless a construct made by Rand. Since this personality is based off of genuine memories of Rands past life, these memories have fleshed out the personality, but the core of Lews Therin is truly Rand. When Lews Therin talks in Rands mind, it is really Rand talking to himself; Lews Therins emotions are really Rands. [...]

I want to make it perfectly clear once again. Genuine memories from Lews Therins life entered into Rands mind. Rand constructed Lews Therin off of the basis of those memories to deal with them. Hence why Lews Therin is a construct made by Rand.

Those excerpts are from the abstract of the theory, one of the first things a person reads. I express it yet again later in the theory. And the bolding sections are in the original as well.

I don't see how I could've been more clear.

So, when you say "I've read everything, I get it, I just don't agree." and then say stuff that is directly countermanded by what I wrote -- obviously there's a problem here.

The mannerisms is likewise a key part, since they're aspects of Lews Therin's habits that Rand is doing, and I made the argument that if Lews Therin can take control of Rand to fiddle his earlobe at pretty women, why can't he move Rand's hands while channeling to kill a hundred thousand Trollocs in an instance that is infinitely more important than a damn woman?

But, hey, I don't really care at this point. The book makes it ironclad. I know some people will deny deny deny still. It's natural, sadly. Silly, foolish, and totally natural. And while it'd be best if they could just say to themselves (not even anyone else) "Hey, I was wrong here" like others have done with theories/predictions they got wrong, it's not a shock that some won't.

Does that matter? No.

It doesn't even matter that I and others were right. It's just feels damn good, having had to deal with so much nonsense before.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:20 AM
Also, Lews Therin is not resting in peace. He's alive and well, and his name is Rand, and yeah, he's finally found peace about Ilyena, but he had to find a reason to live to do it.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 01:31 AM
haha, even you said it, Bela. Don't try to deny it now! You didn't use the word 'debunked', but it hardly makes a difference.
It does to me. That's why I said it.

I believe that there's enough evidence in tGS that I am more comfortable than ever believing my stance. I do not agree that "haha, you guys were 100% wrong and this proves it completely!"

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:38 AM
lol, it's well beyond reasonable doubt, which is enough to say it's 'debunked'.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 01:47 AM
I believe that there's enough evidence in tGS that I am more comfortable than ever believing my stance.

I'm more comfortable than ever, too. And I was sitting pretty damn comfortable before ;)

Put it this way:

Before it seemed that the big "crazy" theory on this topic was that Lews Therin was constructed in some way. The default in most cases was that Lews Therin was "real." IE: the Semirhage scene where everyone here went nuts over exclaiming "ha ha ha! Can't talk your way out of this one!"

TGS has flipped that. The burden of proof has shifted to proving that Lews Therin is real.

And that's being charitable. I'd say it's debunked.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Callandor
11-01-2009, 03:03 AM
Gotta love when you just stumble across a nice summation of things relevant to today:

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
-- Stephen Jay Gould

I certainly think, and I'd like to think I'm hardly the only one, that we're at this point with Lews Therin being a construct.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Crispin's Crispian
11-01-2009, 11:23 AM
haha, no that's obviously you, since most people think construct theory is clearly true, after this book. You're just hanging on to the last tuft of grass on that cliff, like Asmodean.

And of course BS said you can believe whatever you want. That doesn't mean there is no answer to the question - just means that RJ intentionally didn't answer it. I'm not surprised - like I said, you were the one that insisted RJ would answer the question. I was always pretty sure he wouldn't, because it's more fun for him to leave it open. He knew that literature professors 200 years from now would still be debating it. Doesn't mean that both theories are equally viable - just means that the question has to be answered through consideration and debate, rather than easily answered by asking RJ or BS.
We all know that Construct Theorizers are smarter and more thoughtful than the rest. Let's just make that clear.

Now, where's the evidence that Rand created the Lews Therin voice/personality out of suppression of emotions and inability to deal with Lews Therin's real memories? I was looking for that, but it just wasn't clear to me.

Yes, there's an explicit quote that Rand and Lews Therin were never different men, and that seems pretty damning to the "separate sentience of LTT" faction. But it's at all a home run for the Construct theory as it stands today.

And no, this is not sour grapes, because I just don't care that much. I don't particularly care for gloating, though, especially when it's not as ironclad as some think.

greatwolf
11-01-2009, 12:38 PM
I've said from the start that neither the real or construct theory fully answers all the questioning regarding Rand/LTT or the DR for short. There are a lot of real theories out there and only one construct, so in a sense, the construct camp is merely an aspect of the real. A unique one though since it claims LT is not real.

While I do not have any particular real theory that is completely satifactory, (I don't think we have enough information to put it all together) I have thrown out the construct theory completely and my reasons still remain valid.

The construct theory is first and foremost a thoery about insanity. It wants us to beleive Rand has created a voice in his insanity and it doesn't even tell us when or where Rand went mad!

Rand did not use callandor till bk 4. The first appearance of LTT's voice was shortly after. This is one of the weakest areas of the theory but not the weakest.

It is a theory on insanity but does not distinguish between a neurosis and a psychosis. Between a madman who makes up things and a disturbed man who can be talked out of his pressures. In claiming that Rand created a "voice", the theory declares Rand a madman.

This is not supported by evidence in the books and it makes nonsense of RJ's two personalities interview quote because a made up personality is not real and therefore not a personality at all.

Yet we have evidence in the books that the LT personality isn't just memories but an actual personality complete with behaviorism and attitudes com[pletely separate from Rand. The best example of this is Rand's ability to draw.

Further, the memories and instincts relating to the aol predate Rand's use of saidin. The construct theory and most theories do not answer this. Rand knew things he shouldn't have very early on in the series. And he did things that surprised many even the forsaken.

Whether in real world terms or from what can be gleamed from the books, the theory is very flat in dealing with insanity. In fact, it is wrong. LT's madness in the aol does not support it. We've not seen any madness in the present age that supports the fact that one would have memories from anywhere.

It doesn't even take into account that Rand's "insanity" has not progressed into violence from the point at which he "manufactured" the voice. How is that possible without any form of treatment?

And why does the theory hold that the taint degrades the barrier to past lives but only brings memories from the aol? Why the selectivity?

IMO, the constructionists need to do a lot betterto convince people. RJ won't write such a sloppy plot line and neither will BS.

I am certain we'll learn more about what the DR really is soon.

That means both are correct. (ofcourse assuming that the quote by Brandon was correct)

Not necesarily. Rand has been mentally off balance since he first had inkling that he might be the DR but he's never had enough symptoms to be considered mad.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 04:09 PM
Can't... resist...

There are a lot of real theories out there and only one construct, so in a sense, the construct camp is merely an aspect of the real. A unique one though since it claims LT is not real.
This claim is, not to put too fine a point on it, gibberish. Construct Theory posits that LTT's voice is not "authentic." How, then, is it an "aspect of the real?"

The construct theory is first and foremost a thoery about insanity. It wants us to beleive Rand has created a voice in his insanity and it doesn't even tell us when or where Rand went mad!
If you're looking for some sort of single-point, dividing line between "sane Rand" and "mad Rand," your concept of insanity is rather woefully incomplete. It was a process throughout the series, which has been painstakingly detailed in many threads throughout the years.

Rand did not use callandor till bk 4. The first appearance of LTT's voice was shortly after. This is one of the weakest areas of the theory but not the weakest.
Only for those in the "barrier degradation" crowd who believe the taint is responsible for the memories. Which is in fact a subgroup of Construct Theory.

It is a theory on insanity but does not distinguish between a neurosis and a psychosis. Between a madman who makes up things and a disturbed man who can be talked out of his pressures. In claiming that Rand created a "voice", the theory declares Rand a madman.
Well, you're right that the theory posits that Rand is not sane. But I'm not really sure you understand the terms that you're using. Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, and I don't think it can be argued that Rand's suffering from that. Neurosis was a Freudian concept which isn't even used in diagnosis these days, so far as I know.

This is not supported by evidence in the books and it makes nonsense of RJ's two personalities interview quote because a made up personality is not real and therefore not a personality at all.
I'm sure MPD sufferers would take comfort that their extra personalities aren't actually personalities. Quite a relief.

Further, the memories and instincts relating to the aol predate Rand's use of saidin. The construct theory and most theories do not answer this. Rand knew things he shouldn't have very early on in the series. And he did things that surprised many even the forsaken.
Once again, that's a "barrier degradation" issue. That's only a component of Construct Theory, which deals with how LTT's memories ended up in Rand's head. We all know they did, though, so we can treat that as a separate (though related) issue.

Whether in real world terms or from what can be gleamed from the books, the theory is very flat in dealing with insanity. In fact, it is wrong. LT's madness in the aol does not support it. We've not seen any madness in the present age that supports the fact that one would have memories from anywhere.
... I don't even know what this paragraph is saying.

It doesn't even take into account that Rand's "insanity" has not progressed into violence from the point at which he "manufactured" the voice. How is that possible without any form of treatment?
First off, not all people who suffer from psychosis become violent. Surprise!

That aside... are you really suggesting that Rand (who nearly killed his own father at the end of tGS) hasn't "progressed into violence"?

And why does the theory hold that the taint degrades the barrier to past lives but only brings memories from the aol? Why the selectivity?
Yet again, barrier degradation theory. Not Construct Theory.

Terez
11-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Now, where's the evidence that Rand created the Lews Therin voice/personality out of suppression of emotions and inability to deal with Lews Therin's real memories? I was looking for that, but it just wasn't clear to me. We have been giving you that evidence for years, and now you're going to pretend like you've never heard it before? :confused:

As for the end game, Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories because of the Kinslaying. That is why the useful information generally comes directly to Rand, and the ranting about Ilyena is an aspect of the 'voice' - Rand was suppressing that memory more than any others, and he absolutely refused to identify with it.

When he tries to kill Tam, he has no choice but to face it, because what he was about to do was worse than what he did in his past life, because at least then he could claim taint insanity.

So, he realizes that in Ebou Dar, and again decides to take his own life, because he could not face what he had done in the past, and that he had almost done it again. He even goes to the same place where he killed himself before. But this time, instead of going through with it, he faces the past, and finds a reason to live. Now, the main trauma that has been preventing Rand from accepting those memories is GONE. Integration finally happens.

It's pretty damn ironclad.

Terez
11-01-2009, 04:29 PM
And why does the theory hold that the taint degrades the barrier to past lives but only brings memories from the aol? Why the selectivity?
Like Bela said, this has nothing to do with construct theory, but the general idea is that the most recent memories are prominent for the same reason the same is true for our own memories.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 06:59 PM
IMO, the constructionists need to do a lot betterto convince people.

In my opinion, you need to do a lot less of what I'm not doing to your post, and actually read what others have said on the matter. Construct theory is here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2310). Barrier degradation theory is here (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=51&theo=2290).

Don't come back to the discussion till you've read up. Then you can pretend to have a high ground on who needs to be better with their arguments and writings.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Sodas
11-01-2009, 07:26 PM
As for the end game, Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories because of the Kinslaying. That is why the useful information generally comes directly to Rand, and the ranting about Ilyena is an aspect of the 'voice' - Rand was suppressing that memory more than any others, and he absolutely refused to identify with it.

No, the reason he denies the voice and memories are his are because LTT went insane. Rand doesn't want to accept that what he recognizes as himself is insane seperately from that LTT voice. But when he nearly kills Tam, just like LTT killed his own, then Rand realized that he had gone insane irreguardless of the voice inside his head. What Rand identified as himself, seperate from LTT, was insane.



You statement doesn't prove that the voice came from Rand's own suppressed emotions. Like I've stated elsewhere, LTT's voice comes from the Taint. Proving Callandor's theory wrong.

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:37 PM
No, the reason he denies the voice and memories are his are because LTT went insane.
So you admit it was a construct huh? Interesting.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 07:45 PM
LTT is not a construct created by Rand's own mind. LTT was brought by the Taint.

Your failure to realize that it wasn't denial is satisfyingly ironic.

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Just saying, you seem to have a very bad grasp on what you believe. And I think it's probably obvious to most people.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:02 PM
Just saying, you seem to have a very bad grasp on what you believe. And I think it's probably obvious to most people.

Just saying, but you have no clue what I believe, and have no grasp of what actually happened in this book.

And I think that is obvious by your attempts at a response in my thread. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2471&page=2)

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:05 PM
Just saying, but you have no clue what I believe, and have no grasp of what actually happened in this book.

And I think that is even more obvious to most people. Ah, go look at the poll again to see what most people believe about what happened in this book (same thing as me).

Your response in the other thread was off-the-wall. Not really worth responding to, but I'm going to do it anyway, I think. Just because I'm in Lews Therin mode at the moment (wasn't earlier).

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:09 PM
Ah, go look at the poll again to see what most people believe about what happened in this book (same thing as me).

Argument from Popularity (formally, argumentum ad populam) is an informal logical fallacy where an individual claims that a proposition is true because it is or has been widely believed. In its most general form, the argument is generally presented as follows.

P is believed by millions of people worldwide
Therefore, P

It is a fallacy because millions or billions of people can still believe in something that is wrong.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Argument from Popularity (formally, argumentum ad populam) is an informal logical fallacy where an individual claims that a proposition is true because it is or has been widely believed. In its most general form, the argument is generally presented as follows.

P is believed by millions of people worldwide
Therefore, P

It is a fallacy because millions or billions of people can still believe in something that is wrong.
Yes, dear, I know. In fact, Isa has often been guilty of waving her 50-member faction as proof that real'ers were correct.

However, you have set up a straw man. Another logical fallacy that you are guilty of in nearly every post you make.

My comment about the poll results was not used to prove the truth of the argument, but in reference to your comment about what most people believe about what happened in the book. Therefore, it doesn't meet the criteria for Argument from Popularity.

;)

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 08:15 PM
you aren't alone Sodas... no worries... not that you were worried.... i'm just not into banging my head against a wall.. well, not in this scenario anyways :evil

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:16 PM
My comment about the poll results was not used to prove the truth of the argument, but in reference to your comment about what most people believe about what happened in the book.

Never said any such thing. Quote me. I never said it had anything to do with what other people thought.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:20 PM
I think it is obvious from the edit time that you edited your post as I was posting. I quoted you from the original post, posted, saw your edit, and included a comment about the other thread you linked within the window where you can edit a post without the edit line showing up. 8:05 for both my post, and your edit - obviously I didn't have time to change anything else but adding the comment about your addition.

So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I think it is obvious from the edit time that you edited your post as I was posting. I quoted you from the original post, posted, saw your edit, and included a comment about the other thread you linked within the window where you can edit a post without the edit line showing up. 8:05 for both my post, and your edit - obviously I didn't have time to change anything else but adding the comment about your addition.

So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.

Lol.

Why would I reference the poll? You don't even make sense Terez.

Everyone here has seen you and Callandor repeatedly throw the "popularity" card in everyone's face. You even make a whole "faction report" just to officially "debunk" the other side because "most people believe it's debunked."

Now you deny it? So childish.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Why would I reference the poll? You don't even make sense Terez.
You have reading comprehension issues.

You didn't reference the poll. You said that I had no grasp of what was happening in the book. You said that this is obvious to most people. I referenced the poll because most people obviously do not believe that I have no grasp of what happened in the book, since they agree with me. Then you accused me of making and Argument from Popularity, when in reality I had done no such thing (again, your reading comprehension issues).

THEN, you tried to claim that you had not said any such thing, because you edited your post after I had responded. Now, you seem to have given up on claiming that I made up those words since I made it more clear that the edit times show that it would have been impossible for me to do so. You have shown yourself to anyone paying attention that you are a liar, and that your arguments are confused and desperate.

Everyone here has seen you and Callandor repeatedly throw the "popularity" card in everyone's face. You even make a whole "faction report" just to officially "debunk" the other side because "most people believe it's debunked."
Not because most people believe it's debunked, but because the book debunked it. If there were a significant number of people who believed otherwise, then it might be in question, but since there are only a couple of diehards with horrible arguments making a lot of noise....it's debunked.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Not because most people believe it's debunked, but because the book debunked it. If there were a significant number of people who believed otherwise, then it might be in question, but since there are only a couple of diehards with horrible arguments making a lot of noise....it's debunked.

Still, an argument from popularity because you have yet to defend how your statements contradict the book in my thread. You have nothing else.

Edit : I did erase the beginning of this post.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:53 PM
Still, an argument from popularity
That's like saying the theory of evolution is an argument from popularity.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 08:56 PM
That's like saying the theory of evolution is an argument from popularity.

See. You don't even understand how your logic is false.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:57 PM
*sigh*

I give up on this guy...

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 10:35 PM
So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.

Ok, so you both, obviously don't see eye to eye on this and, guess what, you're not the only ones. Let's leave the name calling to other places, like the Non-WoT board.

Constructors, you feel that your point has been proven, that's wonderful. I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean you have to force everyone to accept your view point. It's arrogent and conceited. People are allowed to have different view points, different interpretations and just because you disagree is no reason for any of these attacks.

One-Soulers, I haven't been following this too much, so I'm not up on the fine details, but what I can tell from the ESC couch is that you guys are practically violently agreeing. Take a look at Min's reasoning on pages 242-243 of tGS where Rand confesses that he hear's Lews Therin's voice, she says "Rand, he's you. Or you're him." Just a little after she thinks 'Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the [i]other person inside of them who did horrible things?'

The way the insanity is manifesting is in the seperate personality, it happens over and over, not just with Rand, but many others since we've seen Cadsuane and Semirhage both mention it, consider it the symptoms of this particular brand of insanity, it's just how it works.

Regadless of all that, agree, disagree, agree to disagree or whatever, I don't care. Just keep it civil. If you cannot, just leave these threads alone or else I'm sure we'll actually motivate Fearless Leader to come in here and shut this all down.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 11:10 PM
One-Soulers, I haven't been following this too much, so I'm not up on the fine details, but what I can tell from the ESC couch is that you guys are practically violently agreeing. Take a look at Min's reasoning on pages 242-243 of tGS where Rand confesses that he hear's Lews Therin's voice, she says "Rand, he's you. Or you're him." Just a little after she thinks 'Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the [i]other person inside of them who did horrible things?'

The way the insanity is manifesting is in the seperate personality, it happens over and over, not just with Rand, but many others since we've seen Cadsuane and Semirhage both mention it, consider it the symptoms of this particular brand of insanity, it's just how it works.


Right. Up until Rand Cleansed the Taint.

After that, Rand Soul was able to heal even a Taint brought voice. At least, that is what I'm suggesting.

Terez
11-01-2009, 11:14 PM
SBX, sorry, but I refuse to be civil to someone who is accusing me of making up words that he said when all I did was quote him. He went back and edited his post and then tried to pretend he didn't say it. I think it's well within my rights to get angry about that.

Sodas
11-01-2009, 11:24 PM
SBX, sorry, but I refuse to be civil to someone who is accusing me of making up words that he said when all I did was quote him. He went back and edited his post and then tried to pretend he didn't say it. I think it's well within my rights to get angry about that.

I'm sorry you saw that version of what i wanted to say. I didn't even realize I wrote it because I editted it so fast. It wasn't my intention because I wanted to reference the other thread. But alas, I should have realized you would be smashing the refresh button.

Moving on...

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:05 AM
Smashing the refresh button? It took me an hour to get through the TGS forum tonight - I see new posts as soon as they come up because I've just left another thread. I don't sit here smashing refresh, lol. When I'm done, I go to the 'who's online' page because it refreshes automatically, and I can just glance at it every now and then while I'm doing other stuff and see if anything interesting is happening.

But yeah...moving on...

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 06:47 AM
you guys can argue if you like. It seems to me though that if you do wind up with a lack of civility, Tam is the one that cares about it. I'm just trying to suggest that if you want this thread to remain open, or even existent, that you keep it civil, otherwise, it will be gone.

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 07:03 AM
I'm not going to get into this debate, just give a reminder that threads or posts like these in the past have been balefired. Also to point out that from some of us on the Couch you guys are looking like you're arguing practically the same thing. Last night I equated it in my head to the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Nearly identical, only with a few minor differences to separate the two.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 10:31 AM
We have been giving you that evidence for years, and now you're going to pretend like you've never heard it before? :confused:

SOrry, I meant ironclad evidence from TGS. Which you attempted to provide so thanks.


As for the end game, Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories because of the Kinslaying. That is why the useful information generally comes directly to Rand, and the ranting about Ilyena is an aspect of the 'voice' - Rand was suppressing that memory more than any others, and he absolutely refused to identify with it.

When he tries to kill Tam, he has no choice but to face it, because what he was about to do was worse than what he did in his past life, because at least then he could claim taint insanity.

So, he realizes that in Ebou Dar, and again decides to take his own life, because he could not face what he had done in the past, and that he had almost done it again. He even goes to the same place where he killed himself before. But this time, instead of going through with it, he faces the past, and finds a reason to live. Now, the main trauma that has been preventing Rand from accepting those memories is GONE. Integration finally happens.

It's pretty damn ironclad.So what happened to Rand between the time he snapped with Semirhage and the time he integrated LTT into himself? He acknowledged and seemed to accept Ilyena's death as his own memory in the scene with Min. But instead of integrating, LTT didn't go anywhere. I'm not arguing this as evidence of anything, just trying to figure that out.

It's interesting that the Voice is ultimately what gives Rand his reason to live. That is, "LTT" realizes the answer to Tam's question before "Rand" does. The insane voice finally accepts that it doesn't actually want to die.

In your opinion, is this just Rand overcoming the death-wishes of his memories?

Lastly, the reason I asked about the "evidence" is that I still don't see how this book cements that the Voice is a product of suppressed emotions. Even with everything that happened in this book, it still seems to me that Rand could have just integrated that LTT facet of his personality without ever having "constructed" it psychologically. His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around. That's why in Chapter 15, when he visits Moridin in Tel'aran'rhiod (or somewhere like it), the Voice is gone, and Rand feels better than ever.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 11:44 AM
His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around.
That's a real chicken-and-egg question, isn't it?

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:24 PM
So what happened to Rand between the time he snapped with Semirhage and the time he integrated LTT into himself? He acknowledged and seemed to accept Ilyena's death as his own memory in the scene with Min. lol, he didn't acknowledge it at all. We can see it slipping out, but this is right on the heels of him insisting that Lews Therin is another man.

But instead of integrating, LTT didn't go anywhere. I'm not arguing this as evidence of anything, just trying to figure that out. Well, like I said, he had to actually face it (which he has been avoiding for 3000+ years) and find a reason to live before he could integrate. You can see a progression over this book, with Rand getting closer and closer to admitting that Rand=Lews Therin, but he doesn't finally stare it in the face until the end.

It's interesting that the Voice is ultimately what gives Rand his reason to live. That is, "LTT" realizes the answer to Tam's question before "Rand" does. The insane voice finally accepts that it doesn't actually want to die. They came to the conclusion together, and it wasn't until 'Rand' had the thought that the integration happened ('Rand' was the one that realized the answer to Tam's question, not 'Lews Therin'):

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

Maybe . . . Lews Therin said, shocking lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be . . . Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

...

Why, Rand? Why do you go to battle? What is the point?

Why?

All was still. Even with the tempest, the winds, the crashes of thunder. All was still.

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lied, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. HE remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
In your opinion, is this just Rand overcoming the death-wishes of his memories? I think that's the biggest problem that he had, certainly. It was what was keeping him from having all of Lews Therin's memories. The voice was what was allowing him to suppress all of his emotions, so that they festered inside, and of course that's another huge theme in this book.

Lastly, the reason I asked about the "evidence" is that I still don't see how this book cements that the Voice is a product of suppressed emotions. If you want evidence of how the voice was created, and how it always expressed Rand's suppressed emotions, look in the earlier books. The resolution just confirmed everything the constructors have always known - that Rand's refusal to accept the memories was what gave him the illusion that Lews Therin is another man. Case in point:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another.
He's never really had a problem with the useful memories. Just the painful ones. ;) Here, you can even see him forcibly suppressing the memories (not that that's uncommon) because of that one Ilyena memory (the emotions of which Rand felt quite strongly), and later in the battle when he's delirious, the memories start pouring forth again, while he doesn't have the conscious control over his mind that is required to suppress those memories.

Even with everything that happened in this book, it still seems to me that Rand could have just integrated that LTT facet of his personality without ever having "constructed" it psychologically. In some vague, undetermined way, maybe. The kind of thing that can only happen in a fantasy series. But that explanation is just willful ignorance of what has actually been going on all this time.

His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around. That's why in Chapter 15, when he visits Moridin in Tel'aran'rhiod (or somewhere like it), the Voice is gone, and Rand feels better than ever. The voice was a product of confusion denial more than trauma and emotional instability. We've always said that the voice was subconsciously created by Rand as a means of disassociating himself from the memories, but that it came with its own price, and ended up driving him even crazier. That's the danger of allowing your subconscious to try to fix your problems. ;)