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Terez
10-30-2009, 04:56 AM
Yet another Lews Therin thread!

I'm going to write a final version of the theory. Callandor thinks it's pointless to do so now that this book is out, but obviously at least a few people still think it's not solved. But I'd like to get a poll out just based on people's impressions from reading the book (or from reading the arguments so far).

I'm going to use Oaty's wording for the real'er position again, since everyone seemed to like that. Edit: had to shorten it, could only be 100 characters. I think I preserved the important stuff. If not, let me know a different wording that's under 100 characters, and we'll say that's what you voted for, lol.

tworiverswoman
10-30-2009, 05:37 AM
It seems to be a fait acomplí. I see no other way to interpret that final scene, though I know others do.

I suppose you can always say Rand doesn't know what he's talking about... ;)

Oatman
10-30-2009, 06:01 AM
Well, I'd better vote for my own wording I guess.

I suppose you can always say Rand doesn't know what he's talking about...

If I felt like being a dick I could point out that as yet there is no evidence that Rand has regained any sanity, and that everything said at the end of the book is the ramblings of a madman. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don't believe that. I just interpret it all differently.

Terez
10-30-2009, 06:38 AM
This is the sixth Lews Therin thread since the book started leaking, not counting other threads that got diverted for a time by the argument. I'd say we should try to integrate them, but I don't think that could be done so smoothly in this case. :D

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 01:46 PM
You need to add a "None of the Above" choice because the wrding given puts half of my view in one option and half in the other, but I disagree with the wording of both.

LTT was Memorex, but functionally independent from Rand's conscious control.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 01:57 PM
This is the sixth Lews Therin thread since the book started leaking, not counting other threads that got diverted for a time by the argument. I'd say we should try to integrate them, but I don't think that could be done so smoothly in this case. :D

~starts rocking back and forth muttering~

"Isan, of the Jarra Sept of the Chareen Aiel. She died for me today. Chuonde of the Spine Ridge Miagoma. She died for me today. Agirin of the Shelan Dar-yne. Light Ilyena!!!..."

I'm sorry, what did you say?

Sodas
10-30-2009, 03:05 PM
I can't vote in this poll because it once again, doesn't fit my views. But I'll try to use some of the terms we seem to agree on now :

I feel that LTT is the personality created by the Dragon Soul when it lived in the Age of Legends. Rand is the personality created by the Dragon Soul to live now. But they are the same man, the same Soul.

Think of it as different faces of the same gem.

creepybob
10-30-2009, 04:03 PM
I can't vote in this poll because it once again, doesn't fit my views. But I'll try to use some of the terms we seem to agree on now :

I feel that LTT is the personality created by the Dragon Soul when it lived in the Age of Legends. Rand is the personality created by the Dragon Soul to live now. But they are the same man, the same Soul.

Think of it as different faces of the same gem.

wow, complicated.

I agree with the first, Rand was exposed to the memories, this had been happening as he "rediscovered" things he had no right to know 'bout. Yet he ignored those memories and tried not to think 'bout them. His subconscious mind recognized their importance so it constructed a stereotypical madman and used it as an interface for Rand to interact with.

It was a defense mechanistic to either keep Rand sane, give him the needed knowledge, or both.

Terez
10-30-2009, 04:33 PM
You need to add a "None of the Above" choice because the wrding given puts half of my view in one option and half in the other, but I disagree with the wording of both.
You didn't say anything about the wording last time you voted.

Terez
10-30-2009, 04:35 PM
I can't vote in this poll because it once again, doesn't fit my views.
But you voted anyway? Since no one disagrees with the wording you gave, I'm not sure why you bring it up.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 05:17 PM
But you voted anyway? Since no one disagrees with the wording you gave, I'm not sure why you bring it up.

Didn't mean to vote in it actually.

But hey, at least I'm glad you took the time to poll everyone to see if they agree with my wording.

Sodas
10-30-2009, 05:20 PM
wow, complicated.


It's not complicated.

Every life, the soul creates a new personality.
LTT was one. Rand is one.

Simple.

Jokeslayer
10-30-2009, 06:16 PM
I think the voice can think/act independently of Rand, but also that it was created by him subconsciously, and that it's impossible to determine its relationship with the real LTT. So...all of the above?

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 07:17 PM
I feel that LTT is the personality created by the Dragon Soul when it lived in the Age of Legends. Rand is the personality created by the Dragon Soul to live now. But they are the same man, the same Soul.

Think of it as different faces of the same gem.
There's nothing in those statements I would disagree with even a bit. But that doesn't really say anything about the voice.

Or was that your complaint about the poll? I could see that, I suppose.

Neilbert
10-30-2009, 07:58 PM
LTT was Memorex, but functionally independent from Rand's conscious control.

So uh... subconsciously controlled by Rand?

Terez
10-30-2009, 08:15 PM
There's nothing in those statements I would disagree with even a bit. But that doesn't really say anything about the voice.

Or was that your complaint about the poll? I could see that, I suppose. The poll option makes it clear that construct is about the voice (and the apparent actions, though those are more rare).

@Neil - he's just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, I think. ;)

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 10:31 PM
You didn't say anything about the wording last time you voted.
Because the other poll was worded enough differently to make a meaningful choice possible. This wording doesn't.

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 10:39 PM
So uh... subconsciously controlled by Rand?
Not exactly.

When the LTT Persona was in control, it was the primary consciousness and Rand's Persona was repressed.

My main disagreement is that I think the LTT Pesona was reconstructed so as to be virtually ndistinguishable from LTT's AOL Personality -- an "authentic reproduction." It is reconstructed so well that it has a "life of its own" that can function without Rand's persona and vice versa.

Terez
10-30-2009, 10:45 PM
Because the other poll was worded enough differently to make a meaningful choice possible. This wording doesn't.
The wording for 'construct' is exactly the same. They complained about the real'er wording, so I told them to make their own.

I've never seen Rand's persona suppressed. Or, at least, I think it's too impossible to draw a line between what is Rand and what is Lews Therin to make that sort of distinction.

Weird Harold
10-31-2009, 12:00 AM
The wording for 'construct' is exactly the same. They complained about the real'er wording, so I told them to make their own.

I've never seen Rand's persona suppressed. Or, at least, I think it's too impossible to draw a line between what is Rand and what is Lews Therin to make that sort of distinction.
We have seen Rand "pushed aside" but we always see things from Rand's POV, so it appears to be dominant all the time.

The Black Wind
10-31-2009, 12:33 AM
we always see things from Rand's POV

True, but Rand has never lost control of his body, only the ability to grasp the source. I'd say he has always been the dominant, or at least never the weaker, personality.

Terez
10-31-2009, 01:05 AM
You could say he lost control of his body when he tried to break Taim's seal. Or when he used Lews Therin's features to fight the fading in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Brita
10-31-2009, 03:50 PM
I see it like a person who had amnesia. They are still the same person, but they start a new set of memories and a new life from the point they lost their memory. This new life may shape them in different ways, change their personality traits etc. Then, their previous life starts to filter back in. They are still the same person, but now they have to somehow marry the two lives in their mind.

Rand and LTT are one. They may have different life experiences, different memories, different events shape who they are, but they are the same person. Rand had to learn how to reconcile his pre-amnesia self (LTT) with his current self.

Belazamon
10-31-2009, 03:59 PM
I see it like a person who had amnesia. They are still the same person, but they start a new set of memories and a new life from the point they lost their memory. This new life may shape them in different ways, change their personality traits etc. Then, their previous life starts to filter back in. They are still the same person, but now they have to somehow marry the two lives in their mind.

Rand and LTT are one. They may have different life experiences, different memories, different events shape who they are, but they are the same person. Rand had to learn how to reconcile his pre-amnesia self (LTT) with his current self.
Precisely (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/107953/t/Two-soules-entire-book.html#reply-107953). Apparently the amnesia analogy is lost on some people, though. ;)

Terez
10-31-2009, 10:31 PM
Since WH thinks the distinction isn't clear enough this time, I thought we might try to come up with a better way of expressing the real'ers' position that makes the difference in the two theories clear in under 100 characters. So tell me what you think about this:

1. Lews Therin's memories are real, but the "voice" is an illusion subconsciously created by Rand.

2. Lews Therin's voice is not a psychological phenomenon at all, but a purely supernatural one.

Does that work? If not, maybe we can come up with something better.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 10:53 PM
Not exactly.

When the LTT Persona was in control, it was the primary consciousness and Rand's Persona was repressed.

My main disagreement is that I think the LTT Pesona was reconstructed so as to be virtually ndistinguishable from LTT's AOL Personality -- an "authentic reproduction." It is reconstructed so well that it has a "life of its own" that can function without Rand's persona and vice versa.

I could also agree with that.


It's just that I would add on that LTT came from the Taint and it's effects, not from Rand's mental denial.

I guess I would word the poll :

A) The Voice is a construct of Rand's mind because Rand was crazy.

B) The Voice is, or is a replica of, the real voice of Lews Therin created by the Taint.

Terez
10-31-2009, 11:04 PM
I didn't ask you to change the wording of the construct theory. That is the same as it always was - we've known what we were talking about for some time.

Also, you voted for construct, so you should probably let one of the real'ers decide whether or not that fits their opinions. ;)

Also, to WH - I'd definitely disagree with the 'exact replica', especially considering that there's no real way of separating Rand from Lews Therin, and the fact that Lews Therin obviously expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions, and was almost never the actual source of the memories.

Sodas
10-31-2009, 11:15 PM
Ok,

A) Lews Therin's memories are real, but the "voice" is an illusion subconsciously created by Rand.

B) The Taint has brought the real memories and voice of Lews Therin into Rand's mind.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 12:47 AM
I didn't ask you to change the wording of the construct theory. That is the same as it always was - we've known what we were talking about for some time.

Also, you voted for construct, so you should probably let one of the real'ers decide whether or not that fits their opinions. ;)

Also, to WH - I'd definitely disagree with the 'exact replica', especially considering that there's no real way of separating Rand from Lews Therin, and the fact that Lews Therin obviously expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions, and was almost never the actual source of the memories.
I didn't say exact replica, I said an "Authentic Reproduction" and "Indistinguishable."

If we had an decent example of LTT's personality in the AOL, differences might be detectable, but since we don't, no determination of exactitude can be made.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:08 AM
I didn't say exact replica, I said an "Authentic Reproduction" and "Indistinguishable."

If we had an decent example of LTT's personality in the AOL, differences might be detectable, but since we don't, no determination of exactitude can be made.
Some differences are detectable - we know that Lews Therin appears to remember Rand's memories, for instance, and we know that he expresses Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions, and Rand's tendency toward 'madness'. We know that Rand most often gets the memories directly, so 'Lews Therin' does not really represent the real Lews Therin in any demonstrable way.

In the context of the construct theory, the occasional 'obviously authentic' character trait is largely irrelevant, because the point is that Rand and Lews Therin are in reality one and the same. The divided consciousness is a case of conscious/subconscious, rather than Rand having his own conscious/subconscious, and 'Lews Therin' having his own subconscious/conscious, and subconscious-conscious is more of a continuum than a clean division.

"Authentic reproduction" is not only unprovable and even unsupportable, but it seems to lack an understanding of the fact that Rand and Lews Therin are in essence one person, not two.

Terez
11-01-2009, 05:31 PM
bump

4Alethinos
11-02-2009, 02:55 AM
I have some personal definitions that in some places agree with Terez and in others may not. I will have to wait and see when she replies. I may be just restating her view in my own words, but I will wait for some affirmation from her to be sure, either way.

Soul: This is the seat of identity or ego or the person. It is also, in my view, the only seat of will or determination.

Personality: Sodas said it very well and I think that Bryan Blaire holds that personalities are like facets on the gem of the soul. We see this conclusively with Birgitte. Personality in and of itself has no volition or will of its own. This is a point where I disagree with both WH and Isabel since they both in one way or another have suggested just the opposite. This follows from my view of the soul. Therefore, if you can formulate that the soul is not the sole depository of will or volition, then bring it on.

I do think that the Real and Construct terms are somewhat misleading. The voice in Rand's head is as real as a heart attack. It is what is the cause of this voice or source of this voice that is at issue here. It clearly is not from another soul. RJ shattered that long ago. As a former two-souler, I admitted defeat when that answer was given.

The memories of LTT from the AoL have to contain some of his madness and his awareness that other male channelers are dangerous due to the taint on saidin. These are much of what we see whenever Rand is in the presence of other male channelers.

This is just one example of why it would seem that LTT memories are attempting to control Rand, when Rand himself actually has doubts about his wisdom in forming the Black Tower in the first place.

This is hardly exhaustive, but is a subsantial view of my position, which I believe is almost the same as Terez's position. My ony real addition is my added defintions for soul and personality, which I think that Terez may agree are very close to her own or a restatement using my words.

"When in Rome shoot Roman candles and not Romans." :D

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:31 AM
I do think that the Real and Construct terms are somewhat misleading. The voice in Rand's head is as real as a heart attack. It is what is the cause of this voice or source of this voice that is at issue here. It clearly is not from another soul. RJ shattered that long ago. As a former two-souler, I admitted defeat when that answer was given.
This is where I have to clarify the construct theory. The 'voice' is not, as it appears to be, the essence of Lews Therin. Rand is the essence of Lews Therin. The 'voice' is where Rand feeds all of his suppressed thoughts and emotions - not just his madness, his paranoia, and his grief over Ilyena, but also his love, desires, and his grief over those who have died for him. Rand chants the list of women to make himself hard, and 'Lews Therin' weeps the tears that Rand thinks he can't afford.

I don't buy for a second that the memories are the only reason why Rand has issues. He's got a lot on his shoulders, and all of his inconvenient emotions that are driving him crazy on the inside are expressed through 'the murdering madman'. But the 'murdering madman' was Rand all along. I think that was probably one of the loudest points in this book.

The definitions of 'soul' and 'personality' are, I think, largely irrelevant. The integration drives home the main point - Rand is Lews Therin, and always has been. The concept that Lews Therin was another man was fundamentally wrong. The 'voice' was created subconsciously to vent thoughts and emotions that Rand wasn't willing to face. Other than the obvious fact that Lews Therin was reborn as Rand, 'soul' and 'personality' just aren't needed to describe what's going on here.

4Alethinos
11-02-2009, 02:18 PM
Terez, I agree that the memories of LTT are not the only source of his issues. Little issues like the taint on Saidin, his desire not to harm women, his bringing more men to learn saidin and die, etc. I did sort of imply that that was the only source of his issues, but that was not the case. Thanks for the extra input.

I suppose that I am trying to get into RJ's head on the basis of what I have read in the series. This is why I felt it necessary to state my definitions. They are implied in all of your prior discussions on this issue, though not explcitly stated. You have stated that it is always Rand's will that acts and I completely agree with this. It follows from your implied view of the soul and where the seat of will resides.

Yes, the voice that Rand hears is his own through the prism of LTT's memories and personality. It is a very real voice to him. That is what I meant. The scene on Dragonmount where he seems to be talking to LTT is very revealing in this regard. He is debating with himself and getting answers from the memories of his previous lives. It his own conclusion and that it obvious to me and to you. Others will fight to the end just as I did for two souls and be just as wrong, IMO.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Yes, the voice that Rand hears is his own through the prism of LTT's memories and personality.
I don't even know that this is entirely accurate. I'd say not - he assumes that the voice is about Lews Therin's memories and personality, but it isn't really.

He is debating with himself and getting answers from the memories of his previous lives.
I don't think he is getting answers from his past life memories at all, here. He's getting answers from his heart.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 02:55 PM
Yes, the voice that Rand hears is his own through the prism of LTT's memories and personality.
Unlike Terez, I completely agree with this. Well put.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:11 PM
Unlike Terez, I completely agree with this. Well put.
You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary. No one is impressed. I'm just questioning the implications of that statement, and with good reason, I think.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 03:12 PM
Unlike Terez, I completely agree with this. Well put.

+1

I imagine it would be hard to deal with suddenly having memories of your past life available to you. Of course Mat had to deal with a similar yet very different scenario, having other men's memories shoved into him.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:14 PM
Yeah, Mat's situation is obviously different. He might have gotten some traumatic memories, but unlike Rand, he didn't have to face having actually been responsible for the actions of those men, since they're not past life memories.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 03:21 PM
See, I think that is the key there. Mat could easily claim and believe those were not his memories because they were not.

Rand on the other hand is experiencing a wearing down of the barriers between his present life and past lives. Trying to handle that would be much different. I could easily see the mind developing a "persona" with which to present these memories especially if the person is unwilling to except the memories as a part of themselves, as is the case with Rand.

I think Rand realizes this now, has come to grips with it and destroyed the barriers separating this consciousness from his past lives memories and he will no longer hear these voices. (The voices thing I think could be debatable.)

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:32 PM
I think that the manner in which Mat received the memories was also key - they immediately became interwoven with his own memories, seamlessly. Rand got the memories slowly and progressively, so he had plenty of time to 'rationalize' those memories. They started coming more frequently in The Fires of Heaven, and though Rand assumed from the beginning that the Lews Therin thoughts were the actual voice of Lews Therin speaking to him, he didn't really construct the voice as we know it until Lord of Chaos.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:33 PM
You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary. No one is impressed.

Please, someone get me oxygen. I can't stop laughing.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:34 PM
Please, someone get me oxygen. I can't stop laughing.
Why?

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Why?
Because you're funny. I know, you're going to say you're not, but you'd just be trying to be contrary.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:43 PM
Just trying to figure out what, exactly, you thought was funny.

I say Bela is being contrary for the sake of being contrary because he felt the need to bring my name into it rather than just saying he agreed with 4A. He does that all the time.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 04:06 PM
You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary. No one is impressed. I'm just questioning the implications of that statement, and with good reason, I think.
Actually I only said it that way because it's been made apparent a few times this week that you and I don't necessarily agree with all the particulars of this theory. I was merely pointing out that this was one of those times.

Touchy much? ;)


EDIT: Case in point. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70116&postcount=21)

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:10 PM
Actually I only said it that way because it's been made apparent a few times this week that you and I don't necessarily agree with all the particulars of this theory. I was merely pointing out that this was one of those times.
I think most people here are smart enough to figure out that you disagree with me when you agree with something I just disagreed with. You are free to make your arguments on construct theory without constantly comparing your beliefs to mine.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 04:15 PM
You are free to make your arguments on construct theory without constantly comparing your beliefs to mine.
Thanks! :)

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:15 PM
Any time.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Frankly, I think that once again, the wording of the poll is somewhat wrong.
The LTT in Rands head is the same as the LTT from the AoL, and can think/act, independent of Rand.The important thing, at the end of tGS, is that LTT no longer is.

'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This LTT is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-LTT!!

So a better formulation would have been:
The LTT in Rands head was the same as the LTT from the AoL, and could think/act, independent of Rand.That said, I did vote for it, since the formulation is close enough to be useful throughout most of the series.

And, as an aside (which I'll mention in a thread of my own on the whole book too, assuming that I actually get around and write that), I think it is quite funny that this monumental breakthrough was achieved because of the influence of a bunch of Tinkers.

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:14 AM
A Whitecloak till the end, huh? Can't say I'm surprised. :rolleyes:

You're wrong, though. Lews Therin is not gone. He's a part of Rand, just like he always was. ;) That, also, is proven in the book.

4Alethinos
11-03-2009, 03:20 PM
Oh Gonzo, that is really funny! :)

Rand is LTT, of course and he is alive and well. At least that is how I read the ending of TGS. Rand is now integrated with the memories of LTT and possibly possesses some of his memories from lives previous to his life as LTT.

There is no longer any need to have a voice that presumably speaks for LTT in Rand's head.

I also do not see any way in which the Taint Degradation theory has in any way been advanced or proved in any way by this event.

I also do not see how in any way the events on Dragonmount support the idea that this supports the LTT Rand merge with one of them dying per MIn's viewing. LTT was never alive in the first place. His memories were present as was his personality. LTT could not die without Rand dying. Sorry Terez, I totally disagree with you and my previous notion as I have changed my mind based upon the events in CoT. I still choose Moridin vs Rand for this one. This is further supported by Moridin's pain resulting from the injuries Rand sustained from Semirhaghe.

"I was wounded in the house of my friends." hehe

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:25 PM
I also do not see how in any way the events on Dragonmount support the idea that this supports the LTT Rand merge with one of them dying per MIn's viewing. LTT was never alive in the first place. His memories were present as was his personality. LTT could not die without Rand dying. Sorry Terez, I totally disagree with you and my previous notion as I have changed my mind based upon the events in CoT. I still choose Moridin vs Rand for this one. This is further supported by Moridin's pain resulting from the injuries Rand sustained from Semirhaghe.
What are you talking about? I've believed that vision was about Rand and Moridin since Knife of Dreams came out, and had a hard time believing it was about Lews Therin before then. Lews Therin died already, and was born as Rand. If you see my 'Rand will die' faction, you'll see that I stated 'Lews Therin 'dying' does not count'. ;)

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 05:48 AM
Is there a neither/both option?

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:50 AM
No. If you don't have an opinion, then don't vote. ;)

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 05:56 AM
No. If you don't have an opinion, then don't vote. ;)Yeah, I wasn't going to. :) But thanks for the permission not to. :rolleyes: I do have an opinion, I just disagree with both theories. Or agree with both. Hard to describe.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:00 AM
Probably because you don't understand the difference between the two theories. You can't agree with both.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 06:31 AM
Probably because you don't understand the difference between the two theories. You can't agree with both.Assumptions made, assumptions false. I also have a different view of the memories and considering they are a very large portion of both arguments... I can see both being true. Not 100% true, but definitely possible. But then, in the end, this is also one of the most pointless debates about the book so it really doesn't matter to me whether you think I don't understand the different theories on the matter. I do, but there's no way I'll convince you of that. There's also no way I'll ever be able to explain my viewpoint to you without being treated like an idiot so I sure as hell ain't going to attempt that.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:32 AM
Just saying, the two theories are mutually exclusive, so if you think they're both valid, then you don't understand them. That's just the truth.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 06:39 AM
Just saying, the two theories are mutually exclusive, so if you think they're both valid, then you don't understand them. That's just the truth.Then I obviously don't believe both theories are 100% correct or 100% wrong, as I said earlier. ~le ghasp~ ~leaves thread~

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:42 AM
You can't mix them. Either Rand constructed the 'voice' or he did not. The construct theory accounts for the fact that Lews Therin's memories were always very real, and that Lews Therin was always very much a part of Rand, but the 'real' theory DOES NOT account for the fact that the 'voice' was created due to Rand's psychological problems. If you want a theory that has everything, then go for construct.

I fondly remember the time that this was explained to Isa, and she got all huffy, saying 'you can't have it both ways!' Yeah, we can...

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 06:43 AM
Just saying, the two theories are mutually exclusive, so if you think they're both valid, then you don't understand them. That's just the truth.I think that you are oversimplifying things.

Me, I think that our consciousness is is an illusion subconsciously created by our own brain.
So in that sense, if one considers "Rand" to be both the physical being (body and brain and such) and the consciousness that thinks of itself as "Rand", then one can say that both Rand and LTT were generated in the same way by his subconscious.
If you don't subscribe to that idea of consciousness, then I would appreciate a better alternative. With evidence supporting it, of course. :D

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:45 AM
I think that you are oversimplifying things.
Interesting - I could swear you've said before I was overcomplicating things.

Me, I think that our consciousness is is an illusion subconsciously created by our own brain.
So in that sense, if one considers "Rand" to be both the physical being (body and brain and such) and the consciousness that thinks of itself as "Rand", then one can say that both Rand and LTT were generated in the same way by his subconscious.
If you don't subscribe to that idea of consciousness, then I would appreciate a better alternative. With evidence supporting it, of course.
The idea of consciousness works okay, but it does nothing toward explaining what was actually going on in Rand's head. Construct theory does.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 06:58 AM
Interesting - I could swear you've said before I was overcomplicating things.It's like, you know, whatever! :p

The idea of consciousness works okay, but it does nothing toward explaining what was actually going on in Rand's head. Construct theory does.Construct theory depends (in part) on the rather iffy idea that as soon as someone intellectually understands that the construct is no longer needed, then it disappears. That is not how it works with such constructs, as far as I know.
The real theory does not have that problem, since there the barrier separating Rand and LTT was kept in place by the two of them because they did not want to be one. When that unwillingness disappeared, they dropped the barrier and integrated.

Terez
11-04-2009, 07:04 AM
Your explanation hinges on the idea that they were different people, when the book makes it quite clear that they were not.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 07:29 AM
They were different personalities generated from the same soul. Just as Birgitte's previous incarnations each had its own personality, while still being basically the same person throughout.

Let's take a real world example: the Dalai Lama. According to Tibetan beliefs, that is the same person each time, reborn every time he dies so that he can keep on leading his people on the path towards whatever it is that they're marching to (spiritually speaking). Assume that this is true. Now tell me: would this Dalai Lama and the previous one have the same personality or would they have different ones, using your meaning of personality?
I would say "same person, same soul, different (though perhaps not by much) personalities".

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:46 PM
They were different personalities generated from the same soul. Just as Birgitte's previous incarnations each had its own personality, while still being basically the same person throughout.
Birgitte's past lives do not talk to each other. Why? Because they are not actually different people, and because Birgitte is not insane enough to believe that they are.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Birgitte's past lives do not talk to each other. Why? Because they are not actually different people, and because Birgitte is not insane enough to believe that they are.
Birgitte didn't channel a bunch of the Taint, wasn't reborn according to prophecy, and was already integrated in Tel'aran'rhiod before she was torn out.

Different case.

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Birgitte didn't channel a bunch of the Taint, wasn't reborn according to prophecy, and was already integrated in Tel'aran'rhiod before she was torn out.

Different case.
Not entirely. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 05:13 AM
Birgitte's past lives do not talk to each other. Why? Because they are not actually different people, and because Birgitte is not insane enough to believe that they are.Or, alternatively, because those past lives were reintegrated via the standard mechanism that the Pattern has for doing this.
Which hadn't happened with Rand/LTT, and thus explains quite easily why he isn't just one single personality throughout most of the books.

Terez
11-05-2009, 05:15 AM
It might be, if not for the literally hundreds of bits of evidence that he constructed the 'voice' as a means of disassociating himself from Lews Therin's memories. ;)

the_dead
11-05-2009, 05:45 AM
If LTT was always the mad one and then when they intergated Rand no longer seems to be mad. Would that indicate that Rand was never mad just under stress to the point of breaking. If LTT was real it would explain why Rand is not mad after words. But that he finally has learned to deal with what he must do.

Terez
11-05-2009, 06:04 AM
If LTT was always the mad one and then when they intergated Rand no longer seems to be mad. Would that indicate that Rand was never mad just under stress to the point of breaking. If LTT was real it would explain why Rand is not mad after words. But that he finally has learned to deal with what he must do.
Well, few problems here:
1. We don't really know for sure that Rand isn't mad any more. I think he's much further on the way to sanity now that he's faced the past, but we'll have to wait and see.

2. Part of the reason WHY he was going mad was because he wouldn't accept those memories, and therefore assumed every time he had a thought inspired by those memories that there was a voice talking to him in his head. That in itself wasn't really a symptom of madness - it was fairly natural. But then, the fact that he had a voice in his head talking to him (by all appearances, anyway) started to drive him a little bit bonkers.

3. Some of the thoughts and emotions that Rand was suppressing that came out through Lews Therin seemed a bit more mad than they would have otherwise, I think....for instance, in Lord of Chaos chapter 1, when 'Lews Therin' starts rambling off names of Forsaken. Sounds like a madman rambling, but really it's just Rand's worries about the Forsaken coming out through the 'voice'. Our thoughts aren't ordered like speech, and if our subconscious thoughts were to be presented as speech, they would sound rather insane even though we are not.

4. The most insane-seeming thoughts of 'Lews Therin' were those about Ilyena. Rand has been avoiding that grief, and the grief was driving him mad. Now that he's faced it, it won't be driving him mad any more.

5. If Lews Therin were actually 'real' and mad, then we would expect Rand to be mad after integration, not sane.

the_dead
11-05-2009, 06:15 AM
Well, few problems here:
1. We don't really know for sure that Rand isn't mad any more. I think he's much further on the way to sanity now that he's faced the past, but we'll have to wait and see.

2. Part of the reason WHY he was going mad was because he wouldn't accept those memories, and therefore assumed every time he had a thought inspired by those memories that there was a voice talking to him in his head. That in itself wasn't really a symptom of madness - it was fairly natural. But then, the fact that he had a voice in his head talking to him (by all appearances, anyway) started to drive him a little bit bonkers.

3. Some of the thoughts and emotions that Rand was suppressing that came out through Lews Therin seemed a bit more mad than they would have otherwise, I think....for instance, in Lord of Chaos chapter 1, when 'Lews Therin' starts rambling off names of Forsaken. Sounds like a madman rambling, but really it's just Rand's worries about the Forsaken coming out through the 'voice'. Our thoughts aren't ordered like speech, and if our subconscious thoughts were to be presented as speech, they would sound rather insane even though we are not.

4. The most insane-seeming thoughts of 'Lews Therin' were those about Ilyena. Rand has been avoiding that grief, and the grief was driving him mad. Now that he's faced it, it won't be driving him mad any more.

5. If Lews Therin were actually 'real' and mad, then we would expect Rand to be mad after integration, not sane.
OK I dont get this. It seems on #2 you say he was not mad. But for there to be a construct he would of had to be mad? Am i missing something?

Terez
11-05-2009, 06:21 AM
Yes.

the_dead
11-05-2009, 06:24 AM
Yes.
What?

Terez
11-05-2009, 06:25 AM
RAFO.

the_dead
11-05-2009, 06:28 AM
OK RAFO? I have read and still do not see it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 08:27 AM
Rand wasn't mad, that proves that he was mad, which explains the voice that proves he was mad.
That's the Construct Theory in a nutshell.

Though maybe, if she tries hard, Terez could explain it better. Frankly, I do think that what she said is a bit confusing, and I fear that I just gave a good summary of it. Which, in my opinion, is more an indictment of the statement the two of you are talking about now than of the whole theory.
So, Terez, can you explain a bit better why Rand not being mad is proof that he is mad?

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 01:14 PM
OK I dont get this. It seems on #2 you say he was not mad. But for there to be a construct he would of had to be mad? Am i missing something?
A Construct is, in most ways, a coping mechanism to avoid insanity. In other ways, it is a symptom of insanity.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 01:30 PM
A Construct is, in most ways, a coping mechanism to avoid insanity. In other ways, it is a symptom of insanity.
Still too cryptic.

What you mean is that Rand could not bring himself to identify with the memories of an insane murder, so he created a separate identity to which to ascribe those memories (and, not coincidentally, any other thoughts or emotions with which he wasn't comfortable). But the very act of dissociating himself with Lews Therin, who was simply Rand himself, was an act of madness.

In effect, Rand drove himself mad by trying not to be mad.

Terez
11-05-2009, 03:04 PM
Still too cryptic.

What you mean is that Rand could not bring himself to identify with the memories of an insane murder, so he created a separate identity to which to ascribe those memories (and, not coincidentally, any other thoughts or emotions with which he wasn't comfortable). But the very act of dissociating himself with Lews Therin, who was simply Rand himself, was an act of madness.
The act was a cause of madness as well - the act could also be seen as a symptom, but it's more of a cause in this case than anything else, I think.

In effect, Rand drove himself mad by trying not to be mad.
Like I said before, this is what happens when you allow your subconscious to sort out your issues. :p

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 06:10 PM
In effect, Rand drove himself mad by trying not to be mad.
PERFECT. Thank you.

Terez
11-07-2009, 10:54 PM
Bump, since more noobs are coming in and all.

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 12:31 AM
In effect, Rand drove himself mad by trying not to be mad.
Well that's just mad! :p
'real' theory DOES NOT account for the fact that the 'voice' was created due to Rand's psychological problems. If you want a theory that has everything, then go for construct.
that's a misleading statement. If the voice was 'real,' then it wasn't "created" by anything, let alone pych issues. The voice was the product of the soul's last strong imprint of pesonality being deluded by the taint's worsening of it's judgement into believing itself seperate from the soul's current current personality imprint.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:33 AM
that's a misleading statement.
No it isn't. The 'real' theory doesn't account for it (meaning they don't believe it).

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 12:37 AM
to say that one person is not accounting for something that may not exist is an extremely interesting statement in and of itself.

But what did you think of the rest of my post?

Sodas
11-08-2009, 12:43 AM
that's a misleading statement. If the voice was 'real,' then it wasn't "created" by anything, let alone pych issues. The voice was the product of the soul's last strong imprint of pesonality being deluded by the taint's worsening of it's judgement into believing itself seperate from the soul's current current personality imprint.

I like to think LTT's voice is the persona created by LTT living his life.

Isabel
11-08-2009, 12:55 AM
Exactly. And because Rand didn't accept the voice,and or LTT didn't realize yet that Ilyena would be reborn again, Rand didn't integrate.
So that's why Rand kept being insane.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:56 AM
Lews Therin always knew that Ilyena would be reborn. He just didn't apply that knowledge.

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2009, 05:25 AM
Lews Therin always knew that Ilyena would be reborn. He just didn't apply that knowledge.Well, he was Aes Sedai, you know.

JSUCamel
11-08-2009, 12:24 PM
Lews Therin always knew that Ilyena would be reborn. He just didn't apply that knowledge.

Knowing doesn't equal understanding. Everyone knows they'll be reborn, but few apply the current situation to the future.

A sociopath knowing that going to prison for murder as punishment is one thing. Realizing that prison is also saving the lives of those he would have killed in the future is quite another.

Similarly, knowing that one will be reborn eventually is one thing. Knowing that rebirth gives you another chance at love, laughter and tears is a much larger leap. It required Rand to stop being thinking of his identity as Dragon as being about him, and realize that his identity as Dragon is about helping others -- not just those around him today, but those in the future that he will never meet.

Terez
11-12-2009, 10:35 AM
Knowing doesn't equal understanding.
That's what I said. He knew, but he didn't apply the knowledge.

Bumped, for moar noobs.

Terez
05-25-2010, 03:08 AM
Bringing this to the top just because I wanted to post about the Lews Therin discussion I'm having at tor.com (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=59367), and I didn't want to start a new thread. It's been fun; I don't think these people quite know the meaning of 'longpost' yet. There are a few hard core real'ers there, but I've made some converts. That's always exciting. My first post is #172. It's on Leigh Butler's review of the chapter in The Path of Daggers where Lews Therin comes back from vacation, so I figured that would be a good place to start a debate.

FelixPax
05-25-2010, 08:03 PM
There are a few hard core real'ers there, but I've made some converts. That's always exciting.

Ah, claiming to be a Missionary not an Intellectual?

Looks like you, you have quite a few doubters at TOR on this topic:

I'm happier that someone is backing off the Elayne-bashing than whether Terez27 will ever come around to the truth that Lews Therin is real.


Ironically Terez, on this one topic of L.T.T., I'm in base agreement, yet I also do think Sodas view of point is valid as well:


I feel that LTT is the personality created by the Dragon Soul when it lived in the Age of Legends. Rand is the personality created by the Dragon Soul to live now. But they are the same man, the same Soul.

Think of it as different faces of the same gem.

For example, did Lew Therin have a hang up about killing women who threaten his life, that Rand al'Thor and most Two Rivers men have?

I suspect that was one difference expressed, in the Dragon Reborn's personality then and now--even though the soul is the very same.



I always assumed that the popularity of the theory would depend on our arguments alone.

Isn't that a White Ajah point of view, "on our arguments alone"?

Yet strangely there seems to be an omission in the role that the sheer number of postings plays in attempting to beat people into kneeling to your very own point of view on multiple boards.

If excellent arguments were all that matters, for 'popularity' and 'truth', shouldn't Terez have posted a few less times?

Is Terez's real motto, if I can't beat'em I will out advertise them? ;)

I get frustrated more easily arguing Gawyn because we're going to find out soon enough one way or the other.

Or is it because, you don't now feel as strongly for your own prior theory, of "Gawyn Will Kill Rand" as you once did? :D

Casabamelon
05-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Bringing this to the top just because I wanted to post about the Lews Therin discussion I'm having at tor.com (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=59367), and I didn't want to start a new thread. It's been fun; I don't think these people quite know the meaning of 'longpost' yet. There are a few hard core real'ers there, but I've made some converts. That's always exciting. My first post is #172. It's on Leigh Butler's review of the chapter in The Path of Daggers where Lews Therin comes back from vacation, so I figured that would be a good place to start a debate.

Good lawd. I tried to read through the comments to get where the fun started, and I think I pulled something reading through the "Blackberry Bush" nonsense. Either that or the idiots made me facepalm one too many times.

My head hurts. Where'd I put the beer?

Wait, I'm at work.

Where'd I put the whiskey.
________
AMATEUR TUBED (http://www.fucktube.com/)

Terez
05-26-2010, 09:57 AM
LOL, yeah the blackberry argument was ridiculous. There were only a couple of people that were arguing it was Tar Valon, though...most of them have more sense than that. ;)