If the Dark One breaks the Wheel

[a dragonburned fool]

I Ozy's thread I stumbled on a thought that seem to need a separate attention. It so long a post as mine there and so back in a thread I don't think it's very suitable for reading. So let it be separately and briefly considered here:

If DO wins he will break the Wheel. However unclear this might be, there is at least one thing clear about it. Once DO wins, he will achieve a state that the Wheel's Universe never existed. Never! And I have a very good proof in the books that this will be exactly so: Balefire.

Balefire is deletion of part of a thread (or threads). Once balefire strikes it deletes all the events before it happens. There's no time for this thread for a period before the hit. But balefire destroys only part of a limited number of threads. DO's destruction of the Wheel means that all threads of all times are gone at once. This means that if DO succeeds so, then it would appear that nothing never happened in the worlds of the Wheel. Actually if DO wins, there would be never such thing as Wheel's universe.

I'm not saying that DO would use balefire or something alike. I'm only satting that balefire shows it without any shadows of grey, that destroying a thread is equal to shifting time back. Destroying the Wheel means destroying the Pattern (is there something to doubt this statement?). So destroying the Wheel means shifting time back to the moment of Creation. As if the Wheel never happened. As if nothing was created at all. And this seems to be inevitable conseqence of the mere concept of the Wheelbreaking.

Is there anything I could miss here?

[Ozymandias]

Well, such a theory would imply that the Dark One is an avid supporter of balefire, which he does not seem to be. You would think he would be asking his lieutenants to be balefiring left and right. This would achieve his aims with minimal effort.

More likely is that he would be, as they saying does go, free to "remake the Pattern in his own image". In other words, craft reality in a manner of his own choosing. What that would be, beats me, but that seems logical.

Stay tuned for a theory I've been working on that deals with just this.

[Mort]

I just don't get how the proof could be balefire. How do you make the connection the DO and balefire?

Because balefire destroys a thread in the pattern, sending it back before the thread was actually destroyed, why does that have to mean that the DO will have the same effect?

Sure, the possibility of it happening is there, because we know there is a force (balefire) that can destroy pattern threads.

Edit: I was first gonna write an alternative idea about The Creator being the Wheel itself, somehow sentient. Meaning that if the DO breaks free, he has literally beaten the Creator, ultimately destroying the Wheel. But I'm not gonna, so there.

Edit 2: Seems like I just did, whoops!

[Weird Harold]

Destroying the Wheel means destroying the Pattern (is there something to doubt this statement?).

If you destroy a loom, does all of the material woven on it disappear?

For all practical purposes, the DO does plan on destroying the Wheel and the Pattern, but destroying one does NOT necessarily mean destroying the other.

[the silent speaker]

Well, such a theory would imply that the Dark One is an avid supporter of balefire, which he does not seem to be. You would think he would be asking his lieutenants to be balefiring left and right.
WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

I like the notion that balefire is an analogy for what would happen if the Dark One broke free. Not that he is balefire, but as a metaphor. And I've always taken the side that the DO wouldn't leave anything in his wake. Retroactive destruction is not essential to that but would fit elegantly.

[Dragon]

I agree that if the DO would break free, he would ultimately destroy all existence.

I doubt that he could remake the Pattern, because the DO is only chaos & destruction, not order and creation like the Creator. He can only twist and destroy nature, IMO.

However, I also think that if the DO would successfully destroy existence, the Creator would once again imprison him outside a new made universe, and the whole conflict would start anew.

[a dragonburned fool]

I never liked the conclusion I've reached here. I would prefer that DO's victory would mean that existence really is still there, only in a mode uncompatible with the current one. I'm still eager to find way that it would be so. All that makes me really pleased about every argument against my conclusion. Now I feel hope that I might be wrong. At least the fact that my conclusion doesn't seem obvious for everybody is a great relief for me. I still haven't achieved the piece of mind though.

If you destroy a loom, does all of the material woven on it disappear?

For all practical purposes, the DO does plan on destroying the Wheel and the Pattern, but destroying one does NOT necessarily mean destroying the other. Tis looks so reasonably, that my first thought was "How the heck this so simple thought never occured to me". Then I remembered, that I never could envision what a "thread" or "Pattern" in general could mean in the absense of the Wheel. And honestly I still cannot envision it. Of course the Wheel and the Pattern are not interchangable concepts, but an active process in a computer is also not exactly the same as powered CPU. It seems for me that the relation between the Wheel and the threads is like the relation between the processor and the active processes. With the processor down there is just no meaningful way to speak about the active processes. Data, code etc. may still be stored somewere, but without a processor they don't make any processes.

Well a Thread is rather a process. A Thread is about how matter and events and soul and everything are organized in time-flow. Take out the element of time-flow and you have nothing that could be named "thread". If nothing determines how the events of a life come in consecutive order after each other, not just concurrently in a full mess, then it's not a thread but just a bulk of matter, soul and various data. Probably the Pattern itself could somehow persist without the Wheel, like a code stored somewhere, I don't know. But the threads are processes, the time element is integral part of them.

So I still think that destruction of the Wheel directly means destruction of all threads. Not of matter, etc. But threads in particular should be gone. And since balefire is targeting not so much the matter, but specifiaclly the thread as such, the comparison is still valid. For my greatest dissatisfaction.

I just don't get how the proof could be balefire. How do you make the connection the DO and balefire? Because balefire destroys a thread in the pattern, sending it back before the thread was actually destroyed, why does that have to mean that the DO will have the same effect?The common between balefire and DO is that threads are deleted. Breaking the wheel means destroying the threads. And I asked myself, is there anything in the books that we can see what a deletion of a thread does mean. And the answer is obviously the balefire effect. If you destroy threads, no matter of the technology you use, the effect would be like the balefire effect, because it is what a deletion of a thread looks like.

When I read your post for the first time, my first thought was that you just haven't read my original post carefully. Then I reread your post, and I saw that you just don't think that destroying the threads by DO and destroying them by balefire must be necessarily the same kind of destroying. I might have thought that destroying is just that - destroying, no matter how, but you might counter me why I'm so sure that in both cases it's just destroying in the same sense. Who knows whether the balefire destroys only the Thread in strictest sense, or also some other layers of existence or world 's organization assotiated with the thread? Who knows whether DO's destruction of the Wheel wouldn't destroy only some element of the threads leaving other elements intact?

Because balefire's main effect is the temporal shifting back, I reasoned out, that exactly the temporal element of the thread is what is destroyed by balefire. The temporal aspect means Wheel-depended aspect, so the breaking of the Wheel will destroy exactly this aspect. So I still think that my conclusion is more likely, but I see at least some unknown area (what does balefire exaclty target), that would possibly be usable as a base for an alternative theory. I have to think more about.

Well, such a theory would imply that the Dark One is an avid supporter of balefire, which he does not seem to be. You would think he would be asking his lieutenants to be balefiring left and right. This would achieve his aims with minimal effort. Yes, this might be an inconsistency to break a breach in my conclusion. Even with DO's words to Demandred, DO might be more ... insistent, if balefire would be the key. However I'm not sure that DO's aim might be technically achieved via balefire. And not beacuse of what balefire does, but because of the scale in that it does it. Balefire requires huge ressources of One Power to destroy a very tiny part of a very low number of threads. Very tiny part compared to all the seven Ages and very low number compared to all the threads in the world. Even with all his lieutenants mobilized for the task, DO might be very low on ressources to hope to complete any sufficient amount of the needed work by balefire. Additional problem is that the mass balefiring should be done inside the Wheel by Wheel's inhabitants. I.e. it has to be done under the control of the Wheel. So the Wheel would probably do something against such methodical Wheel-destruction, something like killing the lieutenants very quickly by quite hilarious reasons (like falling down on a plain flour and breaking the neck) or make them just change their minds. In the War of Shadow both sides suddenly decided to stop using balefire, and we know that such sudden decisions by many people simultaniously usually mark Wheel's working. Of course both sides had good reasons, but people under ta'veren effect also have allways some own reasons. So DO might be also technically unable to achieve his goal by balefire, and he might realize this.

[Ozymandias]

If all threads are destroyed, then all matter is destroyed, because threads ARE matter. The Pattern is no more and no less than a tapestry of everything that exists, and the story of how it is woven together.

If you destroy the threads, you destroy the matter. And even if your of the opinion that threads only represent living things, or souls, then you still are confronted with the difficulty of the Dark One ruling nothing but a lifeless heap of stone and mud.

Your ideas about time and its relation to individual threads is interesting, but not applicable. You see, Weird Harold can be right; your ideas on time flow are all well and good, but thats only for going forward. The Pattern is a tapestry of history; just because the Dark One breaks the Wheel doesn't necessitate the end of history. Sure, it may be the end of time, conceptually, since none of us would be spun out to give definition to that time, but there would still be Ages upon Ages of history already woven; which exist at this point independent of the Wheel, and have no relation to the concept of time-flow anymore.

And the temporal aspect of the question isn't one that is dependent on the Wheel, which might be another point you've missed. We've agreed the Dark One isn't subject to the Wheel, and because the Dark One cannot step out of time, time also cannot be dependent on the Wheel. Otherwise the Dark One would be free to go back along the Pattern, pluck the thread before it was balefired, and plunk him back down in the present. What that does for your theory... well, its too early for me to decide, so give me time, but I leave you with a parting, and unrelated, piece of food for thought.

The Wheel controls all threads utterly. Balefire can undo the Pattern. Yet the use of balefire must be sanctioned by the Wheel, because the Wheel is absolute. Therefore, balefire cannot destroy the Pattern. Discuss.

(please disagree... even in his absence, I'd still like to make Callandor look bad)

[Weird Harold]

Tis looks so reasonably, that my first thought was "How the heck this so simple thought never occured to me". Then I remembered, that I never could envision what a "thread" or "Pattern" in general could mean in the absense of the Wheel. And honestly I still cannot envision it. Of course the Wheel and the Pattern are not interchangable concepts, but an active process in a computer is also not exactly the same as powered CPU. It seems for me that the relation between the Wheel and the threads is like the relation between the processor and the active processes.

Part of the problem is that the destruction of Time itself pretty much destroys any possible metaphor meaningful to a mind still stuck in the ordered, cause/effect, sequential processes of Time.

Think of a thread as a film-strip -- an ordered sequence of events represented as individual frames on the film. What the DO wants to destroy is not the individual frames or the camera that recorded them, but the sequential ordering of images that give them meaning as parts of a whole.

Balefire destroys the thread "burning" it back aand destroying not the sequence of frames, but individual frames in reverse sequence.

The DO wants to separate the frames of each film and scramble them (and destroy the camera so no new frames are ever recorded.)

In a way, the Wheel of Time is like a zoetrope with only seven images and seven slots:

http://www.opticaltoys.com/zoetrope%20main%20page.JPG

What the DO wants is to break the zoetrope, separate the images and break them down to their component parts so that no single thing bears any relation to any other.

Without Time -- the rotation of the zoetrope wheel at a constant speed -- there is no frame of reference to give "life" to (animate) the images on the inside of the zoetrope.

[Weird Harold]

If you destroy the threads, you destroy the matter. And even if your of the opinion that threads only represent living things, or souls, then you still are confronted with the difficulty of the Dark One ruling nothing but a lifeless heap of stone and mud.

That presumes that the DO actually wants to "rule" anything after he breaks free.

See my example of the zoetrope above -- it is not necessary to destroy the "matter" to destroy the thread, just separate and scramble the images so they are all visible at once in no particular order.

Balefire does destroy the "matter" but it does so sequentially in reverse. The DO wants to destroy the sequence -- Time -- which does NOT necessarily meant destroying the component parts.

[Ozymandias]

That presumes that the DO actually wants to "rule" anything after he breaks free.

aDBF basic assumption is that the Dark One has some basic motive that is more than just "I want to destroy this because it exists". Personally, I may be of the opinion that he wants to destroy existence for some reason of his own and has no desire to rule anything, but I'm trying to work within the parameters of the thread here, which implies that the Dark One wants to rule something; whether he creates it or not, he has an agenda that encompasses more than the word "destroy".

Which I don't agree with.

[Weird Harold]

aDBF basic assumption is that the Dark One has some basic motive that is more than just "I want to destroy this because it exists". Personally, I may be of the opinion that he wants to destroy existence for some reason of his own and has no desire to rule anything, but I'm trying to work within the parameters of the thread here, which implies that the Dark One wants to rule something; whether he creates it or not, he has an agenda that encompasses more than the word "destroy".

Which I don't agree with.
I don't see where you get the idea that destroying the very fabric of existance so it never existed stems from a "I want more than simple destruction because it exists" premise.

As far as mankind can actually understand the DO's motivations, "destroy it simply because it exists" is as good a description as any.

personally, I believe that the DO's motivation really is as simple as "Even I Cannot Step Ouside of Time" being an intolerable restriction -- Time restricts and imprisons the DO, so Time must be destroyed and destroyed completely so it can never irritate the DO again.

[Yuri33]

The DO may endorse some use of balefire, but that doesn't mean he wants to unravel the Pattern and destroy the world with balefire. Balefire can be extremely useful for both sides, erasing certain events to achieve a specific purpose (such as reviving Mat and Aviendha).

The Creator himself has created multiple Wheels, spinning their own Patterns, to survive or die as decided by their inhabitants:

CoT, A Strengthening Storm:
Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer*ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

To destroy the Pattern is simply to cause another flower to wither, which means nothing to the DO. For the DO, there is no meaning in simply escaping the jail. There is only meaning in remaking the jail into a paradise. The Pattern, as it exists, is without meaning to the DO. By remaking the Pattern in his image, he gives it meaning. This is the DO's nihilism.

[4Alethinos]

I do not think that the DO wants to destroy the WoT universe. However, he must destroy the Wheel. That does not mean the destruction of the Pattern.

RJ indicated that the DO is a control freak. He wants to run everybody and everything. Apart from his ability to grab a committed soul and reincarnate that person, it is the Wheel that takes care of incarnating souls. It is likely that this function would be taken over by the DO. He clearly has the power to do it.

While it is the Pattern that restricts the DO in his prison and is used to work against him, it is the Wheel that weaves that Pattern.

I do not think that the DO would want to destroy the universe because that is an insufficient victory. The Creator does not care that much about this unverse. It would just be another failed garden from his perspective. The DO wants to take the garden and make it his own and demonstrate his superrior, in his mind, way of doing things to his archenemy, the Creator.

"Know your enemy and you are on the way to defeat him."

[Weird Harold]

I do not think that the DO wants to destroy the WoT universe. However, he must destroy the Wheel. That does not mean the destruction of the Pattern.
...
I do not think that the DO would want to destroy the universe because that is an insufficient victory. The Creator does not care that much about this unverse.

The DO is the polar opposite of the Creator -- Evil vs Good, Dark vs Light, Chaos vs Order, and (most importantly to this debate) Destruction vs Creation.

Ascribing human-like motivations and goals to the DO is fallacious -- He's NOT human (and only "male" by the lack of a decent neuter pronoun.) The only motivation we can be sure of is the desrie for freedom from his/her/it's prison -- but we know he's the opposite of the Creator -- which should logically be named the Destroyer.

[Uno]

The DO is the polar opposite of the Creator -- Evil vs Good, Dark vs Light, Chaos vs Order, and (most importantly to this debate) Destruction vs Creation.

Ascribing human-like motivations and goals to the DO is fallacious -- He's NOT human (and only "male" by the lack of a decent neuter pronoun.) The only motivation we can be sure of is the desrie for freedom from his/her/it's prison -- but we know he's the opposite of the Creator -- which should logically be named the Destroyer.

What, everything the Creator does, the Dark One does opposite? If the Creator says "sit," the Dark One says "stand"? That's a terribly simplistic view of a complex being. We have no real idea of what the Dark One wants, but we do know that Ishamael thought "that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free," and that Ishamael further believed that it had happened before that the Creator's champion had been made a creature of the Shadow (LOC, 133). To me, that seems to suggest that something a bit more complex that a simple drive for destruction is going on.

Besides, logic is merely a human mental technique intended to aid our comprehension of the infinite complexity of the universe; it does not necessarily apply to beings whose nature lies beyond all human comprehension. Such beings may, in fact, defy all logic.

[Weird Harold]

What, everything the Creator does, the Dark One does opposite? If the Creator says "sit," the Dark One says "stand"? That's a terribly simplistic view of a complex being. ...

Maybe not quite that extreme, but possibly just exactly that extreme.

Besides, logic is merely a human mental technique intended to aid our comprehension of the infinite complexity of the universe; it does not necessarily apply to beings whose nature lies beyond all human comprehension. Such beings may, in fact, defy all logic.

The logic is simplistic, but it's as valid -- possibly more valid if we apply occam's razor -- as any more complex motivation.

I think the DO does "defy all logic" which is why the most simplistic explanation is, IMHO the most likely. "He" has motivations humans can't understand but the net goal of "His" motivations is the Elimination of the Wheel of Time which in practical terms means termination of mankind.

The Forsaken and DFs believe he promises "immortality" to his minions, when I think he has only promised they will "Live To the End of Time" -- Time which will End just as soon as he's free to end it.

[4Alethinos]

WH, I cannot really agree with your logic. The DO is certainly capable of creating things if he is free to do so.

I recall in the Eddings series that the opposites were philosophical and about to what extent the creatures would have what amount of autonomy and freedom.

RJ is the one who made the comment about the DO being a control freak and that is just the opposite of the Deistic Creator of this series.

BTW, if there are other universes that have been made, is the DO also captive in them, as well?

It seems that in this universe with TAR, GOI, and Mirror worlds and dimensions for Finns, that if the DO were to be free in any of these, then he would be free in all. We have no real data as to how the DO may be restricted in any other universe and I am not sure that RJ cared about it one way or the other.

I do agree that the Do could renege on his promises to his Chosen and destroy everytihng. Why would he do that? Even Satan wants to rule the existing creation, he does not want to destroy it. Though he is so far from being a threat to God in this univeres that it is laughable.

"Why have only the power to destroy when you can create your own slaves?" :eek:

[Weird Harold]

BTW, if there are other universes that have been made, is the DO also captive in them, as well?

He is certainly locked outside of them because his very essence seems to be incompatible with the Creator's works. The Blight and the distortions and variable cave structures of Shayol Gul.

It seems that in this universe with TAR, GOI, and Mirror worlds and dimensions for Finns, that if the DO were to be free in any of these, then he would be free in all.

That's a paradox that is one of the things that lead me to believe the DO can only Destroy the Wheel, not "remake it in his own image."

The only way he can be completely imprisoned or completely free is if getting free destroys the structure tha keeps the various dimensions separated.

I do agree that the Do could renege on his promises to his Chosen and destroy everything.

Destroy the Wheel of Time is NOT reneging on a promise to "Live to the End of Time" -- the DO can't be held responsible for mistranslations. :D

Whether the DO builds something new on the wreckage is a moot point because "life as we know it" will be long gone and physicist will have to start over from striking sparks from Flint and Iron -- if even fire still works.

[4Alethinos]

The Blight is a distortion of the creation and not a destruction of it. I do agree that the DO could destroy things if he were free.

Yes, the DO certainly must destroy the Wheel. The inference I make from this is that time will become linear as others have suggested. I do also believe that absent a total destruction of everything that the DO is perfectly capable of weaving a Pattern of his own.

This activity would certainly allow him the type of micromanagement that RJ said he likes to exercise over his Chosen. It would at that time include all of those alive and even those who are just souls waiting to be reborn. Needless to say, the HotH would be toast.

"Some say potato and others say potahtoe." :)

[Weird Harold]

The Blight is a distortion of the creation and not a destruction of it.

The Blight is also just the effect of what little of the DO can seep through the Seals on the Bore over 3,000+ years -- kind of like the effect of a oil slick on wetlands as opposed to a full blown oil spill.

[Terez]

Yeah, the full blown oil spill happened after the drilling, and before Lews Therin's sealing. Everything else since then has been a trickle.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah, the full blown oil spill happened after the drilling, and before Lews Therin's sealing. Everything else since then has been a trickle.

Even the initial "gusher" when the Bore was first created wasn't a "full-blown" oil spill -- it was more a high-pressure pinhole; very dangerous right at the leak, but dispersed to near invisibility a short distance away.

The point here is that the DO's touch on the world even at the peak of his influence in the War of Power was no more than the pollution from one oil burning beater in bad need of a ring job compared to the toxic effect complete freedom would have.

[Terez]

This is true, but the line between his pre-sealing power and his post-sealing power is apparently different from the line being pushed currently.

[Weird Harold]

This is true, but the line between his pre-sealing power and his post-sealing power is apparently different from the line being pushed currently.
I'm not sure I follow that statement, but I think the current level of "contact" witht he DO is very close to the level he had immediately after the Bore was first drilled -- more controlled, but not much stronger (if even as strong.)

The amount of contact the DO had immediately prior to the SaSG was as much from the accumulation of his essence that seeped through during the War of Power as is was any increase in ability to act through the Bore in "real-time."

[Terez]

I'm talking about the Dark One's ability to touch the world, which doesn't seem to correlate directly with his level of communication with his humans. Were the dead walking before the Strike? Did corridors begin to lead to the wrong places? Did reality often tremble on the edge of obliteration?

[Weird Harold]

I'm talking about the Dark One's ability to touch the world, which doesn't seem to correlate directly with his level of communication with his humans. Were the dead walking before the Strike? Did corridors begin to lead to the wrong places? Did reality often tremble on the edge of obliteration?
Is that the "DO's touch" or just the signs of T'G approaching being blamed on the DO's touch.

IMHO, in order for the DO to break free of his prison, forces outside of the Pattern and/or "Harmonics"from within the pattern have to converge and build up to a point where they are strong enough that mere human and/or DO strength is sufficient to shatter the DO's prison completely.

It's a bit like a charge building in a Van Degraaf Generator raising the hair on your arms before it discharges -- at the right moment, a small movement can not only trigger the disharge, but direct the discharge to a specific purpose. A van Degraaf generator isn't as finicky about timing as T'G is, but the build-up of the side-effects to a large amount of potential energy are similar to what's happening in the WOT.

I don't believe the DO is behind nearly as much of the signs and portents as he's being blamed for.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think that he is behind more than is often thought. That seems the only way to explain RJ's insistence that the Shadow is on the verge of winning.

[Weird Harold]

I think that he is behind more than is often thought. That seems the only way to explain RJ's insistence that the Shadow is on the verge of winning.
That depends on how you define "He's behind it."

For Example, The "Bubbles of Evil" come from the DO/the DO's prison, but I don't consider them "The DO's Touch" becaue He has no control over them -- they're more like "The DO's BO" than the The DO's "touch."

For me, "The DO's Touch" is things like the drought and endless summer, which required the BotW to fix.

Things like villages from the past swallowing up travelers is a breakdown in Time itself, and not an deliberate action by the DO or even a side effect of the DO's essence bubbling through the weave of the Pattern.

[Terez]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I disagree with that.

[Yuri33]

In the AoL, the DO was partially free. Yet he still lost. Why would anyone think he would simply try the same things as before as the seals weaken. As an example, I'm positive the DO could have forced permanent summer of winter during the AoL. However, it would have been useless, because objects like the Bowl were widespread and could have easily been used to counter the effect. This time around, that wasn't the case, so the DO chose to go for it.

I would not be surprised if just about every strange effect we've seen is directly or indirectly the doing of the DO, including bubbles of evil, changing passageways, seeing the dead, etc. Why wasn't it happening before the Strike? The DO is learning from his mistakes--he's using a different set of strategies this time around.

[Weird Harold]

In the AoL, the DO was partially free. Yet he still lost. Why would anyone think he would simply try the same things as before as the seals weaken. As an example, I'm positive the DO could have forced permanent summer of winter during the AoL. However, it would have been useless, because objects like the Bowl were widespread and could have easily been used to counter the effect. This time around, that wasn't the case, so the DO chose to go for it.

I don't believe the DO ever had a hope of breaking free of his prison in the AOL. I think that's only possible ONCE in each Turning of the Wheel and that is one specific instance in what is called the "Third Age" -- one specific instant when all of the conditions are aligned so that a single human's effort can tip the verdict one way or the other -- continue the Turning of the Wheel or Break the Cycle (which would just happen to free the DO.)

I would not be surprised if just about every strange effect we've seen is directly or indirectly the doing of the DO, including bubbles of evil, changing passageways, seeing the dead, etc. Why wasn't it happening before the Strike?

Bubbles of Evil are clearly an indirect effect of the DO gaining more contact with the world -- Like I said, they're like the DO"s BO.

Shifting Corridors, Seeing the Dead, Ancient Villages swallowing Travelers, and the like, I think are signs that the real world and the mirror worlds are converging/merging/intermingling and I don't think the DO has the power to cause that to happen directly or indirectly.

I think those are signs that Wheel is reaching the point in this Turning where a minor shove can tip it over or set it back on track.

[Yuri33]

I don't believe the DO ever had a hope of breaking free of his prison in the AOL.

The DO certainly had hope of something other than what actually happened. Even if the DO wouldn't have broken free at that specific time, I suspect a win for the Shadow at the end of the AoL would be a perfect set up for an escape now, maybe even cementing the deal.

And besides, that doesn't speak against my reasons for the DO using different tactics this time around.

Shifting Corridors, Seeing the Dead, Ancient Villages swallowing Travelers, and the like, I think are signs that the real world and the mirror worlds are converging/merging/intermingling and I don't think the DO has the power to cause that to happen directly or indirectly.

I don't know how you got to the Mirror Worlds, they are a completely separate phenomenon.

I think those are signs that Wheel is reaching the point in this Turning where a minor shove can tip it over or set it back on track.

All those signs are conveniently spreading fear\anxiety\despair\etc. The kinds of feelings the DO would like the world to have. Have there been any good signs of the approaching Last Battle? It certainly doesn't speak towards balance.

[Ozymandias]

There isn't necessarily any proof the shifting hallways and walking dead are evidence of the DO's power. Perhaps its just Rand's overzealous use of balefire... of course, that would also imply it happened during the AoL as well... but its an interesting idea.

[Terez]

Yeah, we've discussed that possibility before, though there's not enough evidence of balefire to say that's the cause, when balefire is hardly being used at a rate anything approaching its use in the War of Power.

Still, I think the dead walking etc. are pretty obviously the Dark One's touch.

[Weird Harold]

The DO certainly had hope of something other than what actually happened. Even if the DO wouldn't have broken free at that specific time, I suspect a win for the Shadow at the end of the AoL would be a perfect set up for an escape now, maybe even cementing the deal.

Yes, the DO certainly had hopes of his minions domininating the Wheel and Pattern to prepare the way for his release.

And besides, that doesn't speak against my reasons for the DO using different tactics this time around.

It speaks precisely in regard to using different tactics -- the objective in the AOL wasn't his freedom, because his freedom wasn't possible. Different objectives requires different tactics.

I don't know how you got to the Mirror Worlds, they are a completely separate phenomenon.

If the DO is not causing the changing corridors, ancient villages, ghosts, et al, the What IS causing them -- the collapse of the mirror worlds and everything else in Creation back into a single reality is my laternate explanation -- a variation on the Ever-Expanding vs Cyclic Collapse to a new Big Bang argument in our real world.

Have there been any good signs of the approaching Last Battle? It certainly doesn't speak towards balance.

There's certanily not been any good signs that anyone has complained about. :D

I'm not sure that we should expect balance as T'G approaches because it's a point of "precarious equilibrium" where small forces will have large effects and that is pretty much the opposite of stable and balanced.

I suppose that if the DO/Shadow had won the War of Power, it would have been LTT and the Hundred Companions trapped by the Seals and "Ishamael Reborn" and friends trying to stave off the incipient goodness tipping the Wheel to that point of "precarious equilibirum" needed to effect the DO's Release. :rolleyes:

[4Alethinos]

WH, I find your idea about the MWs being what is causing the shifting corridors and villages coming and going to be very compelling. Stick to your guns as you are not alone any more.

Since the MWs are worlds where different decisions bring about different results, then why not have an architect decide for a different place for a hallway or set of stairs. A different decision as to where to build a village or to not build a village. This is exactly what the Mirror Worlds represent.

I think you have made a brilliant leap, WH. Alas, I cannot get you a free drink at a Starbucks with my endorsement, but kudos, anyway.

I also find it very credible to believe that this what RJ would have had in mind when he began the descriptions of these changes in what is called reality.

"Egad, my skull did not explode from the impact of a new idea. WoW!" :)

[Marie Curie 7]

Shifting Corridors, Seeing the Dead, Ancient Villages swallowing Travelers, and the like, I think are signs that the real world and the mirror worlds are converging/merging/intermingling and I don't think the DO has the power to cause that to happen directly or indirectly.
So then how do you interpret this, WH?

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 2 - The Dark One's Touch

Slowly, Elaida set the page down to one side. She wanted to shiver. So. She had read everything she could find concerning the Last Battle, even studies and Foretellings so old they had never been translated out of the Old Tongue and had lain covered in dust in the darkest corners of the library. The al'Thor boy had been a harbinger, but now it seemed that Tarmon Gai'don would come sooner than anyone had thought. Several of those ancient Foretellings, from the earliest days of the Tower, said the dead appearing was the first sign, a thinning of reality as the Dark One gathered himself. There would be worse before long.

Seems to me that the quote is suggesting that at the very least the dead walking are a result of something the Dark One has been doing.

[Weird Harold]

So then how do you interpret this, WH?


Slowly, Elaida set the page down to one side. She wanted to shiver. So. She had read everything she could find concerning the Last Battle, even studies and Foretellings so old they had never been translated out of the Old Tongue and had lain covered in dust in the darkest corners of the library. The al'Thor boy had been a harbinger, but now it seemed that Tarmon Gai'don would come sooner than anyone had thought. Several of those ancient Foretellings, from the earliest days of the Tower, said the dead appearing was the first sign, a thinning of reality as the Dark One gathered himself. There would be worse before long.


Seems to me that the quote is suggesting that at the very least the dead walking are a result of something the Dark One has been doing.

You do realize you're using Elaida's interpretation of prophecy and foretelling as evedence? :eek: She doesn't have a real good record at interpreting foretellings. :rolleyes:

She does describe the portent as "A Thinning of Reality" but is that the Effect of the DO stirring or the Cause of the DO being able to stir?

Lots of Rain and Water slopping over the top are signs of impedning collapse of a dam -- is the Dam causing those signs?

[Marie Curie 7]

You do realize you're using Elaida's interpretation of prophecy and foretelling as evedence? :eek: She doesn't have a real good record at interpreting foretellings. :rolleyes:

She does describe the portent as "A Thinning of Reality" but is that the Effect of the DO stirring or the Cause of the DO being able to stir?

Lots of Rain and Water slopping over the top are signs of impedning collapse of a dam -- is the Dam causing those signs?

Well, we know that Elaida definitely has problems interpreting her own foretellings, but the quote says that there were several foretellings that essentially said the same thing. I don't see any reason to expect that there was any reason that Elaida would misinterpret these since the foretellings are not in any way related to her.

[Uno]

Well, we know that Elaida definitely has problems interpreting her own foretellings, but the quote says that there were several foretellings that essentially said the same thing. I don't see any reason to expect that there was any reason that Elaida would misinterpret these since the foretellings are not in any way related to her.

Besides, this is not necessarily Elaida's personal interpretation of these foretellings, as she might be just be relying on and repeating millenia of exegetic tradition and learned commentary on the prophecies.

[Weird Harold]

I don't see any reason to expect that there was any reason that Elaida would misinterpret these since the foretellings are not in any way related to her.

I have to wonder why RJ chose to reveal that tidbit of information from Elaida's POV as opposed to Verin's or some other more scholarly AS. :cool:

It's pretty much irrelevant to my point though -- The signs and portent warning of the DO's increased touch on the world do NOT necessarily have to be caused by the DO.

Some will be effects of the DO's increasing freedom -- things He is doing consciously or directly -- but many more of them will be things unrelated to the DO that enable the DO to demonstrate more freedom but not something that He has any control or influence over.

The DO is a bit like The Allies in June of 1944 -- they had all of the men material an dships they needed but they had to launch the Normandy invasion on June Fourth Fifth or Sixth because those were the nights with the highest tides for three months on either side of that early June window (IIRC the next time the moon and tides would match up for a landing at Normandy would have been Septemer 16th)

The Allies had control over the Men Materiel and Transport and they had some influence over the French Underground's operations and were deluging the German Intelligence network with disinformation, but the Moon and Tide and Weather were decided by forces beyond anyone's control.

The Germans could easily "foretell" the date and time of the landings -- several of their brighter intelligence types DID predict the date and time accurately -- because they could calculate the moon and tides as well as the Allies and they actually had better weather data on the North Sea than the Allies did.

The indicators they would use to foretell the invasion would mostly have nothing to do with the Allies state of preparedness, but everything to do with convergences of forces outside of anyone's control.

IMHO, most of the signs and portents foretold as indicators of T'G's approach are like the Moon, and Tide as signs and portents of impending invasion of Europe in 1944.

[Weird Harold]

Besides, this is not necessarily Elaida's personal interpretation of these foretellings, as she might be just be relying on and repeating millenia of exegetic tradition and learned commentary on the prophecies.

The quote says she consulted "even studies and Foretellings so old they had never been translated out of the Old Tongue and had lain covered in dust in the darkest corners of the library."

It's her thoughts summing up what she learned -- presumably by translating them herself?

Still, the question remains: Is the DO Thinning Reality by his touch, or is Realtiy Thinning to allow him greater influence. Is the "DO's Touch" Cause or Effect?

[Uno]

The quote says she consulted "even studies and Foretellings so old they had never been translated out of the Old Tongue and had lain covered in dust in the darkest corners of the library."



Right. She's been consulting works and studies written about foretellings, as well as the foretellings themselves. Elaida's not a very original thinker...she jumps at the most obvious interpretation available, such as the notion that the royal line of Andor mentioned in her own foretelling meant house Thrakand, so I doubt that she'd come up with new and radical interpretations of her own. If its not her own interpretation, Elaida's personal skills as an interpreter of prophecy are irrelevant.

[Marie Curie 7]

It's pretty much irrelevant to my point though -- The signs and portent warning of the DO's increased touch on the world do NOT necessarily have to be caused by the DO.

And my point is that the foretelling suggests that the thinning of reality occurred as the Dark One gathered himself....how is that not a result of smething that he has caused?

[Uno]

The question, though, is not simply whether or not the Dark One is deliberately doing these things, but whether these things are symptomatic of conditions that will soon allow him to break free, or if these things happen because the DO is straining to free himself. Deliberate direct effects or mere side effects, in other words. The DO may not be waking the dead on purpose, but when he stirs in his prison, reality quakes. Perhaps.

The analogy with the allies and the weather is at any rate not that valid, as the allies could have absolutely no control over meterological conditions, while the DO, as a powerful deity, may have such power in relations to the general world. The allies could merely hope that the weather was favourable, but the DO may possess the means to manipulate the fabric of reality to pave the way for the Day of Return.

[Weird Harold]

The question, though, is not simply whether or not the Dark One is deliberately doing these things, but whether these things are symptomatic of conditions that will soon allow him to break free, or if these things happen because the DO is straining to free himself. Deliberate direct effects or mere side effects, in other words. The DO may not be waking the dead on purpose, but when he stirs in his prison, reality quakes. Perhaps.

I think many of the signs and portents are neither deliberate actions or side-effects of the DO, they're the result of converging forces he has no control over.

If He could arrange the kind of forces that are converging on T'G, why didn't he arrange them in the AOL?

But there is no mention of ghosts or the fabric of reality thinning in the War of Power (other than the effects of wholesale Balefire use which was NOT accomplishing anything towards freeing the DO) I said earlier that I don't think the DO could have broken free of his prison in the AOL/War of Power.

I don't think He set anything in motion back then that is just coming to a head either and that is the only way I can see that the DO is responsible for the changing corridors, ghosts, and other things that can be explained as the divisons between mirror worlds failing -- or the mirror worlds converging towards a merger into a single reality for T'G.


The allies could merely hope that the weather was favourable, but the DO may possess the means to manipulate the fabric of reality to pave the way for the Day of Return.

The Weather was just one of several factors that had to align for the attack to happen when it did. If the weather was the only thing that required manipulation, the DO already has Manipulated the weather (climate actually, and the Supergirls Manipulated it right back.)

The WOT allows for a lot more manipulation of forces the real world has to accept and/or plan around. The Tide and Moon were what would have delayed D-Day until September; the weather would have been acceptable dozens of times before the Tide and Moon were acceptable again.

The DO is paving the way, but NOT by "manipulating the fabric of Reality" -- at least not the the extent of raising ghosts. Numerous discussions about transmigration, black cords, and the like have pretty much concluded that the DO cn't just grab any soul he wants to; He has to have some prior connection to a soul to grab it and transmigrate it.

Are all of the Ghosts deceased DF's then? How is the DO raising them without a prior connection?

[GonzoTheGreat]

I have to wonder why RJ chose to reveal that tidbit of information from Elaida's POV as opposed to Verin's or some other more scholarly AS.Like Beonin?
KOD, Chapter 2, The Dark One's Touch

The words trailed off as she saw a woman some thirty paces away walking slowly toward her through the grove of massive trees. She must have been behind a tree before. An Aes Sedai in a dress of old-fashioned cut, with straight white hair held back by a pearl-studded cap of silver wire and falling to her waist. It could not be. That strong face with its dark, tilted eyes and hooked nose was unmistakable, though. Unmistakable, but Turanine Merdagon had died when Beonin was Accepted. In midstep, the woman vanished.
“What is it?” Tervail spun, his sword coming up, to stare in the direction she had been looking. “What frightened you?”
“The Dark One, he is touching the world,” she said softly. It was impossible! Impossible, but she was not given to delusions or fancies. She had seen what she had seen. Her shiver had nothing to with standing ankle-deep in snow. Silently, she prayed. May the Light illumine me all of my days, and may I shelter in the Creator’s hand in the sure and certain hope of salvation and rebirth.That sure sounds as though this is the kind of sign any AS recognises immediately, not just something that Elaida cooked up.

And the chapter has another example, the spoiling of food that was Warded to remain fresh. That too is explicitly ascribed to the DO touching the world.
But there is no mention of ghosts or the fabric of reality thinning in the War of Power (other than the effects of wholesale Balefire use which was NOT accomplishing anything towards freeing the DO) I said earlier that I don't think the DO could have broken free of his prison in the AOL/War of Power.
Isn't there?
KOD, Chapter 21, Within the Stone

Handar winced. The other man suddenly found something interesting on the floor to study. “You may require a guide, my Lord,” Handar said slowly. “The corridors… Sometimes the corridors change.”
So. The Pattern truly was loosening. That meant the Dark One was touching the world more than he had since the War of the Shadow. If it loosened too much before Tarmon Gai’don, the Age Lace might unravel. An end to time and reality and creation. Somehow he had to bring about the Last Battle before that happened. Only he did not dare. Not yet.That sounds to me as though LTT immediately recognises the description of the thinning of reality from what happened during the War of Power. Of course, it is not quite explicitly stated, so another explanation could be possible. Still, with a very simple and sufficient explanation available, why dismiss it if there's no argument against it? If you can offer an argument against my interpretation, then that could be reason to decide that the explanation is not good enough, naturally.
The DO is paving the way, but NOT by "manipulating the fabric of Reality" -- at least not the the extent of raising ghosts.
I don't think that is what is being argued. It is not what I think is going on.

In my view, the DO is trying to shred the fabric of existence to pieces, because that fabric forms a straightjacket which imprisons him. As a side effect of the stress he is putting on the threads, things like ghosts, changing corridors, spoiled food and out of time villages occur. Not what he wants, but not something that bothers him in the least either. Just 'collateral damage' which may help him a bit because it creates chaos.

[Weird Harold]

Like Beonin?
That sure sounds as though this is the kind of sign any AS recognises immediately, not just something that Elaida cooked up.

And the chapter has another example, the spoiling of food that was Warded to remain fresh. That too is explicitly ascribed to the DO touching the world.

I'm not really disputing that the "Dark One's Touch" is explicitly blamed for every anomoly and inconvenience, I'm just questioning whehter this is just another case of "What everybody knows, usually ain't so."


...
So. The Pattern truly was loosening. That meant the Dark One was touching the world more than he had since the War of the Shadow. If it loosened too much before Tarmon Gai’don, the Age Lace might unravel. An end to time and reality and creation. Somehow he had to bring about the Last Battle before that happened. Only he did not dare. Not yet.

That sounds to me as though LTT immediately recognises the description of the thinning of reality from what happened during the War of Power. Of course, it is not quite explicitly stated, so another explanation could be possible. Still, with a very simple and sufficient explanation available, why dismiss it if there's no argument against it?

LTT's conceit that he -- or anyone, including the DO -- can "bring about the last battle" before the Wheel and PAttern are ready for it to happen is a very large part of what I'm arguing against.

The Wheel is weaving the End of an Age andit's explicitly stated that nobody inside the Pattern can affect the Wheel -- Which if the Pattern itself is the DO's prison would include the DO.

T'G won't happen until the Wheel has all of the necessary forces aligned and the Pattern has moved all of the required witnesses and players in place for the Big Showdown -- no one and no thing can acclerate or delay T'G by one microsecond.

The simplistic, "Everything bad is the DO's fault" doesn't really answer a lot of questions, where the "Universe is Collapsing" does -- at least for me it does.

T'G is the subject of a great deal of foretelling and prophecy. Foreteling and Prophecy are generally accepted as "glimpses of where the Pattern is going." If T'G is not a preordained part of the Pattern, it can not be Foretold. T'G cannot be "brought about" any more than Rand has been able to manipulate Prophecy to make it happen on his schedule.

In my view, the DO is trying to shred the fabric of existence to pieces, ... Just 'collateral damage' which may help him a bit because it creates chaos.

Some things are exactly what you describe. My point is that using that explanation for EVERY anomaly is probably confusing Cause and Effect -- The DO is trying to shred the fabric of existance and to some extent is succeeding, but I do NOT believe he could have any success unless someother factor -- Lke The Wheel assembling the forces and players for T'G -- was weakenting the fabric of reality first.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Are you suggesting that the Wheel is more powerful than the Creator?

If not, then what evidence do you have that the DO is third in power, after the Wheel and the Creator?

Why would the Wheel want TG to come at all, if it could avoid that and thus protect its integrity with certainty?
TG comes because the DO wants that, and the Wheel can't avoid it. The best it can manage is to arrange things (and people) so that there is a reasonable chance of defeating the DO.

I really do not see on what this "the DO is limited to what the Wheel allows him to do" meme comes from. It surely does not seem to be based on anything in the series, as far as I know.

[Weird Harold]

Are you suggesting that the Wheel is more powerful than the Creator?

NO.

If not, then what evidence do you have that the DO is third in power, after the Wheel and the Creator?

The DO is still imprisoned.

Why would the Wheel want TG to come at all, if it could avoid that and thus protect its integrity with certainty?

The Wheel is NOT sentient. It is a machine that's programmed to repeat the same seven routines in sequence for eternity. T'G is part of that cycle; possibly the momentary hiccup as the Wheel resets for another turning, but it's not a matter of "want" or any other anthropomorphism.

TG comes because the DO wants that, and the Wheel can't avoid it. The best it can manage is to arrange things (and people) so that there is a reasonable chance of defeating the DO.

If T'G comes around every Turning because the DO "wants that" then why does it only come once each Turning (or at best once each Age)?

I really do not see on what this "the DO is limited to what the Wheel allows him to do" meme comes from. It surely does not seem to be based on anything in the series, as far as I know.

In part, it's based on an RJ quote that The Forsaken aren't free of the Pattern and have to go as their thread is woven -- only the Creator, The DO (and possibly Padan Fain) are not woven into the Pattern by the Wheel.

If the DO was NOT restricted by the Wheel and Pattern, then he would already be free and there'd be no series to theorize about. :D