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creepybob
10-30-2009, 12:15 PM
...okay so what did we read about the Red's new purpose? To track rogue channelers? And this is going to occupy the LARGEST aijah?

They'll have to be put in charge of recruiting as well or they'll just become a hollow body.

We could see the Reds become the "we work with men" aijah, which is a strange notion to be sure, but that's been hinted with the bonding storyline.

What do you think, post-TGS what will the reds do now?

The Black Wind
10-30-2009, 12:19 PM
Their first job will be confirming that the taint is actually gone. I expect this will take up the next 100 years or so (they are red after all). After that, who can say. :p

Davian93
10-30-2009, 12:20 PM
Lesbian sleepovers and pillow fights?

Ieyasu
10-30-2009, 12:20 PM
Lesbian sleepovers and pillow fights?

This.

Ivhon
10-30-2009, 12:28 PM
giggity

creepybob
10-30-2009, 01:52 PM
Lesbian sleepovers and pillow fights?

What do Greeks have to do with WoT?

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 05:37 PM
Lesbian sleepovers and pillow fights?
I'm not sure the Blues would like the Reds encroaching on this area.

Jokeslayer
10-30-2009, 05:49 PM
Apart from lesbian sleepovers and pillowfights, there might be a role for the reds as a balance to the Black Tower. Initially because someone has to stand against Taim and his (probably) DF followers, but after that it's hard to see the Aes Sedai being happy about much power sharing, and men who can channel are where the Red's experience lies.

Trutino
10-30-2009, 07:56 PM
Apart from lesbian sleepovers and pillowfights, there might be a role for the reds as a balance to the Black Tower. Initially because someone has to stand against Taim and his (probably) DF followers, but after that it's hard to see the Aes Sedai being happy about much power sharing, and men who can channel are where the Red's experience lies.

Balancing the Black Tower is definitely a likely possibility. Also, someone needs to be in charge of managing this expanded (Kin, etc.) White Tower that Egwene wants. They seem to act as guardians of acceptable channeling. Perhaps they will maintain that role but in a slightly different capacity, managing and acting as liaisons between groups. Or maybe they will be responsible for keeping darkfriends out once their own ranks have been cleansed. Maybe all of these. Egwene seems to think they have a major part to play. We'll see...

Terez
10-30-2009, 07:58 PM
I like the idea of them being in charge of recruiting. Recruiting has been a major issue - or, the lack of it is stressed as one of the reasons why there are more Kin than Aes Sedai.

Trutino
10-30-2009, 08:40 PM
Do we have a sense of the Red Ajah's tendency to join the Black Ajah. I had thought it was either (particularly in the past 20 years) to seek out and destroy the Dragon Reborn or it was because they were naturally cranky. ;)

Egwene mentions (pg 307) that there were a "stunning" 48 out of 200 Black Ajah members from the Red. About 25%. This would seem to be proof that Blacks tend to be Red. Is this 25% because of the Red's nature or the fact that Red is the largest Ajah. I wonder what percent of the Red Ajah is Black?

Terez
10-30-2009, 08:44 PM
Well, 20% of Aes Sedai are Black, so the Reds' percentage isn't much above average. There are a lot of man-haters that join the Red, though - that might give them a slightly higher number of haters in general.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:13 PM
Well, 20% of Aes Sedai are Black, so the Reds' percentage isn't much above average. There are a lot of man-haters that join the Red, though - that might give them a slightly higher number of haters in general.

I'd say its above the margin of error though. Probably had something to do with Galina being a Black and Head of the Red though.

creepybob
10-30-2009, 11:52 PM
I like the idea of them being in charge of recruiting. Recruiting has been a major issue - or, the lack of it is stressed as one of the reasons why there are more Kin than Aes Sedai.

Well, we have a hint of something. Remember how Pevara joined the Reds to hunt DF's, and she just assumed that Male Channelers were DF's.

Maybe the Reds could take on the role of PREVENTING the reemergence of the BA, and generally hunting proven DF's.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:07 AM
Yeah, they could pretty much eradicate Darkfriends after the sealing. But another thing that Tarna witnessed was the Asha'man recruiting, and how they must have many if they could send a few Asha'man to a backwoods village.

creepybob
10-31-2009, 12:14 AM
Yeah, they could pretty much eradicate Darkfriends after the sealing. But another thing that Tarna witnessed was the Asha'man recruiting, and how they must have many if they could send a few Asha'man to a backwoods village.

The goals are not mutually exclusive:


Red Sisters scour the countryside one village and town at a time, testing for women ( and possibly with some Ash'aman help men) who can channel.
During this time, they begin investigations into unusual or evil activity.
Then then seek proof for accusations, and they'll be able to exonerate those unjustly accused, and capture those who are hidden DF's.
During this process they also look for signs of channeling activity by wilders. These wilders will be invited to join the WT or the Kin.


And, while they're out there, they can look for angreal, asking townspeople for unusual items and offering payment for confirmed items.



Either way it would solve many problems for the WT, and keep the LARGEST Aijah busy with a huge task.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:35 AM
The goals are not mutually exclusive: I didn't say they were. :rolleyes:

One advantage to the Aiel way is that their culture is so organized and hierarchal. The Wise Ones live among their clans rather than in a central location, and they make sure they catch every girl that can channel (and of course they can do the same with men now). The Seanchan aren't organized by clan like the Aiel, but they manage the same simply from being so organized. The Tower has organized itself, but has in a lot of ways ignored the world outside Tar Valon.

creepybob
10-31-2009, 12:48 AM
I didn't say they were. :rolleyes:

I worded that wrong, it should be "Agreed, the two goals..."

sorreh :p

Weird Harold
10-31-2009, 12:51 AM
Then then seek proof for accusations, and they'll be able to exonerate those unjustly accused, and capture those who are hidden DF's.



Seriously?

Just exactly what in the history of the Red Ajah gives you the impression that they have ever been overly concerned about the facts?

It sounds good as a mission statement, but so does the Whitecloaks premise.

creepybob
10-31-2009, 12:52 AM
Seriously?

Just exactly what in the history of the Red Ajah gives you the impression that they have ever been overly concerned about the facts?

It sounds good as a mission statement, but so does the Whitecloaks premise.

lol...good point, maybe they'll bring a Gray along to determine guilt, then, when given the go ahead, the Reds can blow something up.

Terez
10-31-2009, 12:56 AM
The Reds are changing. Silviana and others are proof of that - and most of the bad apples in the Red fled the Tower because they were Black.

creepybob
10-31-2009, 01:01 AM
The Reds are changing. Silviana and others are proof of that - and most of the bad apples in the Red fled the Tower because they were Black.

True.

We really only have experience with the current batch of reds, and since ...what 20-30% of them were black? along with the aijah leader, it might explain some of the sentiments.

Ishara
11-04-2009, 10:14 AM
I don't know. Even before Elaida was tainted by Fain she had definitive opinions about right and wrong, and if you disagreed with those, then you were obviously a Darkfriend. WH is right that it would take a significant shift in culture and mindset for the Reds to take on a role that required such balance. Maybe it would look more like teams of AS from different Ajahs, with Reds being in charge of the program?

Otherwise, yes, it sounds a LOT like the White Cloaks.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 10:38 AM
Does anyone think that AS would notice the flaw in the plan to let the Reds be the OP Police?

I find it quite easy to imagine a scenario where the Hall wrote a bunch of rules putting restraints on the Reds, more when they were dealing with AS than with non-AS, of course. And then Egwene would get angry at Rand when the Seanchan were not willing to acknowledge her supreme authority.

Enigma
11-04-2009, 02:52 PM
I could see some in the WT trying to tell the Asha'man that if they are to be allowed to continue they will have to have Aes Sedai among them to moniter their behavour and who better that the Reds. I'm sure the Asha'man would tell them where to go on that idea.

Strange as it would seem the Reds would make a good channeling police force. All AS get trained in countering other channeling but the reds actually have the skill set in dealing with men whose weaves they can't detect. I beleive RJ said that even finding male channelers involved detective work i.e. finding what happened and then working back who could have done the deed.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 03:00 PM
I could see some in the WT trying to tell the Asha'man that if they are to be allowed to continue they will have to have Aes Sedai among them to moniter their behavour and who better that the Reds. I'm sure the Asha'man would tell them where to go on that idea.

Strange as it would seem the Reds would make a good channeling police force. All AS get trained in countering other channeling but the reds actually have the skill set in dealing with men whose weaves they can't detect. I beleive RJ said that even finding male channelers involved detective work i.e. finding what happened and then working back who could have done the deed.I was envisioning something like the White Tower Justice Department. While Grays mediate disputes (State Department), and Greens defend against the Shadow (Defense Department), the Reds will be fighting crime.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 03:14 PM
Seriously?

Just exactly what in the history of the Red Ajah gives you the impression that they have ever been overly concerned about the facts?

It sounds good as a mission statement, but so does the Whitecloaks premise.

Agreed. The Reds are too close to being whiecloaks already. MP jobs might not help things.
Probably best to disband/rebrand the ajah.

Enigma
11-04-2009, 03:21 PM
Agreed. The Reds are too close to being whiecloaks already. MP jobs might not help things.
Probably best to disband/rebrand the ajah.

How does that square up with a red mistress of novices who publically called Elaida on her illegal treatment of Egwene. Or a Red sitter who was one of the first to join in the hunt for the Black Ajah, or a Red Keeper who tried to steer Ealida down a more conciliatory path and got shouted down for her troubles. Of the Sisters who Mat rescued from the Seanchan was it the "man hating Red" or the "man loving Green" who was more grateful to him?

There are/were some serious nut jobs in the Red Ajah but its the largest Ajah, it would have move of everything compared to a smaller Ajah like the Blue.

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 07:28 PM
There are/were some serious nut jobs in the Red Ajah but its the largest Ajah, it would have move of everything compared to a smaller Ajah like the Blue.


There are some seriously "pious" and "honorable" Whitecloaks. Does that mean that the reputation of the Whitecloaks as whacko witchhunters is unwarranted?

As a group, the Reds are more likely to participate in another "Vileness" than earn a spotless reputation for fairness.

"We're from the Red Ajah and we're here to help you..."

a dragonburned fool
11-05-2009, 12:12 PM
When Egwene is speaking about how virtues of all Ajahs are needed for the unified Tower, she mentions as the virtue of the Reds vengefulness. And it struck me how well it was put, something I missed so long time. When is vengefulness a virtue. It's obviously the virtue in the sort of movies when the bad guys kill the hero's beloved ones, and the official law enforcement does nothing, so the hero goes on a personal crusade to crush the villains, all the rules and niceties be damned. And I cannot find a Red sister who wouldn't have the attitude of such scenario. Reds are all fans of Dirty Harry. They are the Ajah who hates subtlety in scheming (and therefore is easily outmaneuvered by all lesser in numbers ajahs, so they had no Amyrlin for 1000 years before Elaida, and Elaida only because the other Ajah Heads plotted to set a weak one on the Seat), they hate compromises, they are eager to persue an enemy relentlesly, fiercely and without mercy, most often alone. Pevara became Red, because darkfriends killed her family and he wanted vengence. He was before that leaning to the Green, but the desire to hunt darkfriends changed her mind to the Reds. Why, are the reds more efficient in anti-darkfriend? No, but they do embrace the spirit of crusade against the vileness, whatever this vileness might be. The channeling men were just the Danger #1 of the Age. That's the only reason for the Red to be so fixated on menhunting. Unlike the Green, who are dedicated to prepare for the Last Battle, Reds cannot wait but go to fight here and now against vileness, without bothering for any regular warfare.

This means that after TG the Reds will naturally change their devotion to fight the Danger #1 of the beginning of the Fourth Age. Which seems to be Seanchan. After the raid aaginst the Tower they have something to revenge, something to atke black ops against. Exactly like the Whitecloaks, with whom they share the basic vengeful attitude and who also naturally turned against Seanchan as their main objective. It would not happen through declaration of any sort. Firstly they would still claim tehir mission are channeling men. But they would afce the more imminent vileness meanwhile and soon they will realize that this Seanchan vileness turned into their primary dedication.

Brita
11-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Vengence. Hmm- that brings to mind the Seanchan. Despite all the cooperating that is prophesied to happen for the Last Battle, there is no way to escape the fact that two very opposing cultures will be left on the same continent at the end of the day.

Perhaps Egwene has some counter-damane operation in mind for the Reds.

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 12:30 PM
No, but they do embrace the spirit of crusade against the vileness, whatever this vileness might be.

"Vileness" in connection to the Red's method, not what they were fighting against. It was largely instigated by the Black, but the stilling and execution of male channelers without trial when the BA was trying to do away with the DR in New Spring is what most believe Vileness refers to.

The Reds do seem to embrace that vigilante mindset, but so do the Whitecloaks and Mordeth carried it to extremes.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 12:33 PM
Vengence. Hmm- that brings to mind the Seanchan. Despite all the cooperating that is prophesied to happen for the Last Battle, there is no way to escape the fact that two very opposing cultures will be left on the same continent at the end of the day.

Perhaps Egwene has some counter-damane operation in mind for the Reds.
My name is Silviana. You abducted my Amyrlin. Prepare to die.

nameless
11-05-2009, 02:31 PM
When Egwene is speaking about how virtues of all Ajahs are needed for the unified Tower, she mentions as the virtue of the Reds vengefulness.

I'm not sure Egwene's take on the Red Ajah is an accurate one, seeing as she's only ever met 1 Red sister she respected. My own interpretation is that the Reds are dedicated to purity, not vengeance.

Ishara
11-05-2009, 02:31 PM
Bah. I tried repping that awesomeness, but it was unsuccessful. :(

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 03:43 PM
very close to rep...if he'd put mother instead of Amyrlin it would have worked.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 04:12 PM
Damn, SBX. That would be way funnier, as it would have been if I'd bothered to look up her last name.

"My name is Silviana Brehon. You abducted my Mother. Prepare to die."

Well, you can't win 'em all.

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 04:15 PM
nope, nor can you get rep'ed for them all either. Very good try though. =D

X.X.
11-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Egwene muses to herself a few times about how they'll have to deal with the Black Tower. This is what I see to be the new purpose. Instead of hunting down and gentling male channelers, the purpose is slightly tweaked to instead be the ajah charged with interacting with and keeping tabs on the Asha'man.

The Asha'man definitely are a handful enough to require the full attention of an Ajah. And it just so happens the Reds are supposedly the most experienced at dealing with male channelers (outliers like Cadsuane aside). And coincidentally, and I think it's safe to say this, the majority of the Aes Sedai the Asha'man have bonded are Red.

To reinforce this, there was a part in TGS where Egwene commented how the lack of warder presence in the Red quarters seemed weird. Any takers on the Red Ajah acquiring a special warder niche? Greens have multiple warders, Reds bond Asha'man. Sounds nearly poetic to me.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 05:43 PM
The Baby Ajah, with the sole purpose of getting knocked up by Asha'man http://i44.tinypic.com/6f17pu.jpg

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 05:46 PM
they do say that a woman wearing red appears more attractive then the same woman wearing any other colour.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 05:50 PM
they do say that a woman wearing red appears more attractive then the same woman wearing any other colour.

It's been the sultry little minxs' plan all along

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 06:19 PM
And coincidentally, and I think it's safe to say this, the majority of the Aes Sedai the Asha'man have bonded are Red.

Actually, I don't thinkit is safe to conclude that. The only thing I know we can say for sure about Tovien's 50 is that they wer led by a Red; Alviarin made sure there were no BA in the 50; and there is only one White.

Where we discover that there is only one white, it is implied that every Ajah had representation proportional to the size of the Ajahs -- eg there are more Reds than any other single Ajah, but not a majority.

Of those specifically identified, the Ajahs seem to be evenly distributed, IIRC. I'd have to track down the various references to be sure.

Greens have multiple warders, Reds bond Asha'man. Sounds nearly poetic to me.

Pevara explictly said as much in the epilogue of KoD -- Henceforth Red Sisters may have as many warders as they wish, but they may bond only men who can Channel.

ETA:
Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

That last word carried a great deal of contempt, which Pevara chose to ignore. Tarna's eyes could have turned the sun to an icicle, though. Pevara laid a cautionary hand on the other woman's arm as she spoke. "Reds have experience with men who can channel." Mutters rose among the watching Asha'man. Angry mutters. She ignored that, too. "We are not afraid of them. Custom can be as hard to change as law, harder at times, but it has been decided to change ours. Henceforth, Red sisters may bond Warders, but only men who can channel. Each sister may bond as many as she feels comfortable with. Given the Green, for example, I think that is unlikely to be more than three or four."

Enigma
11-05-2009, 06:44 PM
If Asha'man can be bonded will that make non channeling warders second class warders? They might have better martial skills but it will be real hard to complete against a channeler who will live potentially as long as one's AS and who the AS can relate to a lot more than a non channeler.

Poor Lan might be a dying breed.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 06:50 PM
If Asha'man can be bonded will that make non channeling warders second class warders? They might have better martial skills but it will be real hard to complete against a channeler who will live potentially as long as one's AS and who the AS can relate to a lot more than a non channeler.

Poor Lan might be a dying breed.

They might well be. The greatest gift the Towers can offer each other is life long partnership, and all the possibilities that would present. Soon Aes Sedai will be searching for husbands rather than Warders and vice-versa.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 08:29 PM
My name is Silviana. You abducted my Amyrlin. Prepare to die. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Crispin's Crispian again.Dammit.

Ah well. I would love to see the Red Ajah pull a Heel Face Turn (© TV Tropes) and be the official "Asha'man Warder Pool". But maybe that's just me. >_>

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm not sure Egwene's take on the Red Ajah is an accurate one, seeing as she's only ever met 1 Red sister she respected. My own interpretation is that the Reds are dedicated to purity, not vengeance.I doubt Egwene took this idea about vengefulness from Silviana, because in Silviana it's not exactly the most visible thing. Egwene prove however that she can identufy a Red by just looking at her (Galina during meeting in Cairhien), i.e. she has some proven ability to identify Red treats, she has only to look for something good in it. But no matter how much Egwene's judgement is to be trusted here, actually this word "vengefullness" struck me as something driving most Reds we know - both good and bad ones. It's a too important part in the characters of Tovaine, Teslyn, Tsutama, Pevara, Elaida, Liandrin, Faolain (who is not red, but a typiacl candidate for the Red). It's less visible in Silviana and Tarna, but they tend so much to bite grimly into a difficult scaring task, that is so much in resonance with how usually vengeful heroes do act.

Purity? Or rather purification :D Probably. I'd say they tend to work for such virtue too, but I'm not so sure. "Purity" seems something too mush of a hermit mentality for me, something too much tending to seclude oneself from the filthy world, while Reds are as much dedicated to lonely quests in the world as the Blue. But when a Red goes on a quest it looks too much more ... personal.

And about them dedicating themselves to bond asha'man... I would like it very much, but for now we have still to RAFO how Pevara's and Tarna's attempt in the Black Tower will end. It's still possible Taim will treat them so, that they will regret the idea.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2009, 08:16 AM
Egwene prove however that she can identufy a Red by just looking at her (Galina during meeting in Cairhien), i.e. she has some proven ability to identify Red treats, she has only to look for something good in it.I suspect you meant "traits", though recognising Red "treats" is also possible, of course.

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 08:23 AM
I suspect you meant "traits", though recognising Red "treats" is also possible, of course.:p lol Basically their traits and their treats are not so different from each other to begin with, but yes, I means "traits".

Toss the dice
11-18-2009, 11:11 PM
...okay so what did we read about the Red's new purpose? To track rogue channelers? And this is going to occupy the LARGEST aijah?

They'll have to be put in charge of recruiting as well or they'll just become a hollow body.

We could see the Reds become the "we work with men" aijah, which is a strange notion to be sure, but that's been hinted with the bonding storyline.

What do you think, post-TGS what will the reds do now?

Reds were never exactly the "busiest" Ajah that I could tell with their old purpose. What? Hunt for men who could channel? And exactly how many of those were found every year? It's not as if Reds practiced going out in force to scour the countryside every week. As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of the Reds did nothing but stay in the Tower, hate men, and every once in awhile teach novice classes.

That said, I am fully aware that some of the other Ajahs aren't exactly active busybodies themselves, and most of them essentially sit in the Tower doing mostly nothing (individually) in terms of world influence. I was just alluding to the fact that "hunting rogue channelers" seems about on par with hunting men who can channel.

Spasmodean
11-19-2009, 06:27 AM
Do we have a sense of the Red Ajah's tendency to join the Black Ajah. I had thought it was either (particularly in the past 20 years) to seek out and destroy the Dragon Reborn or it was because they were naturally cranky. ;)

Egwene mentions (pg 307) that there were a "stunning" 48 out of 200 Black Ajah members from the Red. About 25%. This would seem to be proof that Blacks tend to be Red. Is this 25% because of the Red's nature or the fact that Red is the largest Ajah. I wonder what percent of the Red Ajah is Black?

Wasn't it mentioned in the books somewhere that the Blacks tended to be Red due to the Warder issue?

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-19-2009, 11:22 AM
I think it helped that Galina was the head of the Ajah, was black, and took an interest in novices and accepted who might choose the Red (Black)

Interesting the color tie in to Moridin too.

Terez
11-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Wasn't it mentioned in the books somewhere that the Blacks tended to be Red due to the Warder issue?
No. It was, however, mentioned that Verin questioned and Compelled the Reds first for the most part because they had no Warders. It was also mentioned that some Warders of Blacks are Darkfriends, and some are not. There are more Reds in the Black because the Red is the largest Ajah.

fdsaf3
11-19-2009, 12:21 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume the Oath Rod would work on a male channeler. If not, an Asha'Man Warder would be a huge advantage for a Red sister. I wonder how the bond would be affected if the Warder could use the One Power as a weapon, for example. The sister is completely incapable of doing it, but if the Warder isn't and they choose to do it, what happens to the sister?

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 12:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume the Oath Rod would work on a male channeler.
Since you asked so politely, I'm afraid you're wrong. Sorry. :(
Sevannaís fingers touched the rod lightly. More glass than ivory, and very cool. "It only works on women?" She ducked into the tent ahead of him. The Wise Ones and the leaders of the warrior societies were gone, but the dozen treekiller gai'shain remained, kneeling patiently to one side. No one person had ever kept a dozen gai'shain before, and she possessed more. There would have to be a new name for them, though, since they would never put off the white.

"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The manís tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have alíThor before I give you what will control him."

fdsaf3
11-19-2009, 12:44 PM
So is he referring to the male a'dam? Or maybe he's wrong? I have some vague memory of one of the Forsaken mentioning criminals in the AoL being "bound" if they committed a violent crime, which I took to assume that men and women could be bound. I honestly have no idea though. Thanks for digging up that quote.

On a related note: is there a way I can look for quotes like that? That would be awesome!

So my other questions still remain. If a male channeler cannot be bound by the Oath Rod, what would happen to an Aes Sedai if a Asha'Man Warder violated the Three Oaths?

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 01:28 PM
It's speculation, but I'm pretty sure that binders work on male and female channelers. Caddar (Sammael) was probably lying to prevent Sevanna from using the binder on Rand, or even Caddar himself.

Enigma
11-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I agree that we can't take Caddar's word on the matter as he had every reason to lie to protect his ass incase the Shaido tried a double cross on him.

As far as bonding Asha'man warders to get around the oaths its a great idea in theory but the oaths are the WT's big PR stick that they wave at everyone "look we are only dangerous to the bad guys or if you try to kill us".

If they start using Asha'man warders to get around the oaths they might as well drop that oath as everyone will blame them for the destruction anyway. It would the same as someone with a loaded gun in their hand pointed at you saying "don't worry I won't stab you".

Another problem with the idea, though the AS management may not realise it is that Asha'man warders are not like ordinary warders who swear to obey without question. So far the Asha'man warders are loyal to their AS but they have also shown a tendancy to argue with their AS and it may not be so easy to bend them to the AS will with the bond.

Lastly on the idea of the Reds' being focused on matching the BT, I know that they are the biggest Ajah but if that is to be their role, after the Asha'man rebuild after Taim and the Last Battle would the Reds not be seriously outnumbered?

Weird Harold
11-19-2009, 04:44 PM
So is he referring to the male a'dam? Or maybe he's wrong? I have some vague memory of one of the Forsaken mentioning criminals in the AoL being "bound" if they committed a violent crime, which I took to assume that men and women could be bound. I honestly have no idea though. Thanks for digging up that quote.

On a related note: is there a way I can look for quotes like that? That would be awesome!

So my other questions still remain. If a male channeler cannot be bound by the Oath Rod, what would happen to an Aes Sedai if a Asha'Man Warder violated the Three Oaths?
The Oath Rod in the White Tower is numer 3, the one "Caddar" gave to Sevanna is number 111.

It is posssible that Sammael lied to Sevanna, but it would be a fairly easy lie to disprove -- and Sevanna would likely have tried to use it to double check the assertion -- so that Oath rod, #111 probably doesn't work on Saidin users.

That has led to the theory that binding a Saidin user would require an even numbered Binder.

There are other corrective devices mentioned in the BWB -- The "Chair of Remorse" used by the BA Hunters on Talene Minly is one such.

Regarding the Asha'man Warders being bound by their bondholder's Oaths, they should be no more bound than a muggle warder is.

There are several online sources for finding citations. A premium membership here at Theoryland provides one of the best WOT search engines.

I believe Google Books has online copies of the first eleven books but I've seen some serious scanning flaws that make searching them unreliable.

Neilbert
11-20-2009, 12:15 AM
It is posssible that Sammael lied to Sevanna, but it would be a fairly easy lie to disprove -- and Sevanna would likely have tried to use it to double check the assertion

On who?

Tree Brother
11-20-2009, 07:46 AM
On who?
Rand.

The two possibilities are:

1) It does not work on men.

2) It works on men, but Sammael didn't want Sevanna using it on Rand. If they did, they would no longer require Sammael's help.

We know binders were used on criminals. And the binding must have been worded in such a way that the criminal could not remove it themselves -- even in TAR. We just don't know for certain whether there were different versions of the binders for men and women.

Sammael mentions a "binding chair" that could be used on non-channelers. That could be the truth.

Weird Harold
11-20-2009, 01:16 PM
On who?
Preferably Rand, but the first male channeler to fall into her clutches.

Neilbert
11-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Rand's a little important to be a guinea pig. Misused ter'angreal tend to make bad things happen.

Weird Harold
11-20-2009, 01:53 PM
Rand's a little important to be a guinea pig. Misused ter'angreal tend to make bad things happen.
Is Sevanna bright enough to know that -- or care about it if she does know?

Neilbert
11-20-2009, 06:06 PM
Know about it? Sure. Any Wise One who can channel could tell her that the Power is not something to be used lightly and that misusing it can have disastrous consequences.

Care? Certainly. An obviously brain damaged or dead Car'a'carn isn't going to get her any of that power she be seeking.

Davian93
11-20-2009, 06:09 PM
Know about it? Sure. Any Wise One who can channel could tell her that the Power is not something to be used lightly and that misusing it can have disastrous consequences.

Care? Certainly. An obviously brain damaged or dead Car'a'carn isn't going to get her any of that power she be seeking.

Wise One's have almost ZERO experience with using ter'angreal. The only one they ever even used is the Rings in Rhuidean and they dont do anything other than walk into it during their initial test.

Sammael had every reason to lie to Sevanna. I wouldn't take his word on the matter for the Binders. Considering he was outright lying to them about the "Traveling Boxes" why would this other comment be taken as proof of anything?

Mat is Better
11-20-2009, 06:23 PM
I haven't read the WHOLE thread, so this may have been discussed already.

I submit the red's job will be to hunt the black ajah. They're used to hunting people that can channel and there are still a lot of black sisters out there.

Brita
11-20-2009, 06:43 PM
I haven't read the WHOLE thread, so this may have been discussed already.

I submit the red's job will be to hunt the black ajah. They're used to hunting people that can channel and there are still a lot of black sisters out there.

Yep- that could work.

Neilbert
11-20-2009, 06:46 PM
Wise One's have almost ZERO experience with using ter'angreal. The only one they ever even used is the Rings in Rhuidean and they dont do anything other than walk into it during their initial test.

Funny, I didn't mention ter'angreal in my reply. You don't need to know about ter'angreal specifically to know that misusing one could easily be a very bad idea if you know how to channel.

Kurtz
11-20-2009, 06:47 PM
I haven't read the WHOLE thread, so this may have been discussed already.

I submit the red's job will be to hunt the black ajah. They're used to hunting people that can channel and there are still a lot of black sisters out there.

Still leaves them without a permanent task, though some kind of 'policing' of the Aes Sedai could be in order.

Davian93
11-20-2009, 08:39 PM
Funny, I didn't mention ter'angreal in my reply. You don't need to know about ter'angreal specifically to know that misusing one could easily be a very bad idea if you know how to channel.

Maybe...but then again, Wise Ones don't traditionally channel very often nor do they have experience with ter'angreal so there is no background knowledge of "So and so of the Shumai Aiel was burnt out" to give them that institutional knowledge.

Neilbert
11-21-2009, 03:35 AM
Anyone who can channel knows channeling improperly is dangerous. Embracing the source improperly is dangerous. Screwing up weaves is dangerous and unpredictable. These aren't things that are unknown to people who teach channeling. Not being aware of the inherent dangers of channeling invites a high mortality rate. It would be foolish to assume that an object that uses the One Power could be any less dangerous.

And they do channel. At least enough to learn and practice weaves. The instruction and training is just never on screen.

Matoyak
11-21-2009, 03:39 AM
Well, they did teach Aviendha to unravel weaves...which is one of THE most dangerous and unpredictable ways to use the OP (or...un-use it? o_O)
Or that's what I got from the books that talked about that.

Davian93
11-21-2009, 01:52 PM
Without that background knowledge of working with ter'angreal, I doubt it would be instilled in them like that.

I still say Sammael was simply lying to them about that and mostly everything else. He had no motivation to give Sevanna the idea that she could control Rand.

fdsaf3
11-21-2009, 02:15 PM
I get the sense that it would be too ironic for the Reds to hunt the Black Ajah, but that's just me.

Neilbert
11-21-2009, 03:01 PM
Without that background knowledge of working with ter'angreal, I doubt it would be instilled in them like that.

You seriously think they would just assume that this one aspect of One Power use wasn't dangerous?

Weird Harold
11-21-2009, 05:35 PM
You seriously think they would just assume that this one aspect of One Power use wasn't dangerous?
Wise Ones ingeneral wouldn't risk either burn-out from misusing a ter'angreal or crippling Rand.

However, Sevanna is an utter and complete idiot with no knowledge of the risks and little care for consequences that don't directly put her at risk. Her aspirations for riding Rand's coat-tails to power would work just fine if a misused Oath Rod burned him out and or turned him into a vegetable -- the latter would probably actually be preferable because then she could just wave him about like a flag and rule as his regent.

Sevanna had sufficient control over the Shaido Wise Ones that she could demand the Oath Rod be attempted on Rand even if some of the wiser Wise Ones refused.

Davian93
11-21-2009, 05:49 PM
You seriously think they would just assume that this one aspect of One Power use wasn't dangerous?

No, I'm saying that Sammael had no reason whatsoever to be honest and we know for a fact that he lied to Sevanna throughout the discussion concerning the Oath Rod and Traveling Boxes, etc. Whether that means he was lying about Oath Rod or not is impossible to tell. However, it is possible just as its possible it would then work just as well on men as it does on women.

That's the only argument I'm really making.

Belazamon
11-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Sammael had every reason to lie to Sevanna. I wouldn't take his word on the matter for the Binders. Considering he was outright lying to them about the "Traveling Boxes" why would this other comment be taken as proof of anything?
It may not be a very popular way of looking at it, but I'd say that since we've never seen any evidence to the contrary, and since it's never come up again, there's no compelling reason to think he's lying.

Erm, no pun intended.