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Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 01:23 PM
Okay - so what we got coming out of The Gathering Storm?

Graendal Is Alive
Graendal Is Dead
Asmodean Lives!
Osan'gar Lives!
Verin's Letter to Mat (what it entails)
LTT Was a Construct (the end)
The Voice of LTT Will Return
Seanchan Assassins (who they will kill, if they remain)
Those That Escaped: Where the BA went
Mesanna, an Update
Balefire and Severing - One Power vs. True Power
Gawyn - The Vendetta
Asmodean, an Update and the Small Clue
Rand and the True Power - Where did it come from?
Rand and Tuon - What's next?
The DO influencing the Pattern through Rand?

Wunderwaffe
10-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Was Rand able to access the True Power largely because of his 'connection' to Moridin, or because the Dark One willed it?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Verin's letters--I want to know who else she sent/gave missives to and what they direct those folks to do next.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 01:34 PM
Where Did The Black Ajah Flee?
What's Going On At the Black Tower?
Rand Didn't Really Go Blind, Will Mat Really Lose an Eye?

Davian93
10-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Demandred: International Man of Mystery (What the heck is he up to?)

Logain: Sir Not Appearing In This Novel

Rand's Balefire and its Effects on the Pattern

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 02:05 PM
What's next for the Borderlanders?
What's next for Perrin, Galad and Co?
What's next for Mat and the Band? (besides ToG, anyway)

Hmm, they are all near Caemlyn (relatively) and the BT or heading that way.

Will Moiraine and Cadsuane get along?
What other secrets did Verin's diary contain? Did the other deceased (or still alive) BA leave behind any incriminating items (like Alviarin's code books)? And will Egwene get Coreanin's notes finally?

Davian93
10-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Coreanin Sedai=Black Ajah?

How else did the BA know so much about those ter'angreal. Were her notes that extensive?

ShadowbaneX
10-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Verin's letters--I want to know who else she sent/gave missives to and what they direct those folks to do next.

One thing that seems to me is the Verin knew that death was a likely possibility...but even in the event that her primary plan, the Oath Rod, didn't work, she had a back-up, ie the tea. Now, for Mat, the letter was 'open after ten days', but if she didn't show up, to wait a little while. Now, could this mean that she knew death was a possibility, perhaps a certainty, and that she's got some hope of...resurrecting somehow and will return to talk to Mat? It seems a stretch, even to me, but why would Verin insist on the waiting if death was such a likely outcome? Unless she knew that it might take time to get a new body.

Tamyrlin
10-30-2009, 02:32 PM
I imagine she might have sped up her plans as she perceived everything going on and Egwene's situation. She needed her to have the information she was gathering but couldn't share it unless she took the tea (or the oath rod)...the oath rod part was...I don't know...I'm not sure how much I like that she could have lived and taken the oaths off...

Zaela Sedai
10-30-2009, 02:37 PM
But are we positive we could remove the BA oathes? I know we can take of WT oathes....

WinespringBrother
10-30-2009, 02:42 PM
Black Ajah oaths are removable, otherwise Seaine's oath rod tricks would not have helped uncover Talene and co's "secrets" (of being black sisters).

Brings me to my next theory idea: now that we know some of the BA oaths, how does that change how we see the previous confessions of captured darkfriend sisters like Joiya and Amico? Presumably, Joiya was freed of those oaths when she was stilled.

Zaela Sedai
10-30-2009, 02:43 PM
thye ound out Talene was BA because they made her swear and it was confliting with her other oathes...

Never mind they can

Saerin straightened. "I fear it's time to put her back to sleep, Doesine." Talene's tears redoubled, but she mumbled through them. "I-forswear-all oaths-that bind me." With the last word, she began to howl.

creepybob
10-30-2009, 03:06 PM
Oaths to the darkone aren't just powerful because they use the oathrod, DF's are marked (see: Fain's musings) and irrevocably tried to him (see: Verin's statements that you can never cease being DF, though she thought she could remove oaths.)

So we have two levels of oaths, and a ceremony (See: Verin's implication that the DF oaths were involved and messy) which, in some way, ties the individual to the DO.

Belazamon
10-30-2009, 05:57 PM
Was Rand able to access the True Power largely because of his 'connection' to Moridin, or because the Dark One willed it?
Yes.

Mort
10-30-2009, 09:50 PM
Oaths to the darkone aren't just powerful because they use the oathrod, DF's are marked (see: Fain's musings)

It's way too late and I'm way to drunk to look up the quote in question here, but didn't Fain say he could see the DF mark even though the person in question hadn't even officially become DF, just thought about joining?
That to me means that he isn't seeing an actual mark given by swearing to the DO but more like recognizing evil in people.

Davian93
10-30-2009, 09:53 PM
It's way too late and I'm way to drunk to look up the quote in question here, but didn't Fain say he could see the DF mark even though the person in question hadn't even officially become DF, just thought about joining?
That to me means that he isn't seeing an actual mark given by swearing to the DO but more like recognizing evil in people.

I believe Fain's power was completely unique to him and was the result of the Mordeth/Fain quagmire along with the Ishy "distilling" process. I'd love to know what that "distilling" actually was.

Weird Harold
10-30-2009, 10:35 PM
Black Ajah oaths are removable, otherwise Seaine's oath rod tricks would not have helped uncover Talene and co's "secrets" (of being black sisters).

Brings me to my next theory idea: now that we know some of the BA oaths, how does that change how we see the previous confessions of captured darkfriend sisters like Joiya and Amico? Presumably, Joiya was freed of those oaths when she was stilled.
Joiya wasn't stilled -- at least not until Slayer nailed her tongue to the door; death is the Ultimate Unhealable Stilling.

Amico was the one stilled before the iterrogations in Tear.

Terez
10-30-2009, 10:37 PM
Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies. (Thanks for reminding me of that one, WH.)

WinespringBrother
10-31-2009, 10:46 AM
Thanks, WH. I knew it was one of them. Time for a re-read.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:45 AM
Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies. (Thanks for reminding me of that one, WH.)

Nope, not gonna happen.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:57 AM
Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies. (Thanks for reminding me of that one, WH.)
heh, I'm sure others have thought of that one, but I also thought of it back in my early days on the board.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:24 PM
Yeah, I know - I've thought of it long before this as well - but I've never seen anyone argue it convincingly. Not that it takes much to argue it convincingly....but the reminder in this book that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to learn it is what convinced me. I never bought that she would Heal death. That would be lame. But the foreshadowings do point to it.....

Mort
11-02-2009, 08:46 AM
I'd like to expand Verin's letter to Mat (what it entails) to include something about why, if he doesn't open the letter, have to wait before going from Caemlyn. Buggs the hell out of me.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 09:09 AM
For some reason I think Verin's letter has to do with Moiraine and the ToG.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 09:22 AM
I'd like to expand Verin's letter to Mat (what it entails) to include something about why, if he doesn't open the letter, have to wait before going from Caemlyn. Buggs the hell out of me.
I think Verin's letter says that Mat must/should go to the Tower and fetch the Horn. She told him to wait because she'd bring it to him if she had managed to come out of the Tower alive. But what she told Egwene had to come first.

Mort
11-02-2009, 09:46 AM
For some reason I think Verin's letter has to do with Moiraine and the ToG.
Most likely that or she somehow know what will happen if Mat travels from Caemlyn before a certain time has passed.

I'm wondering if this has something to do with Moiraine or with Mat's safety. I don't see how anything would affect Moiraine by having Mat wait 30 days to rescue her. The number of days doesn't seem to be specific either, they compromised it to 30 days from 50 originally.

I think waiting 30 days is for Mat's benefit somehow.

What could possible change by waiting a seemingly arbitrary number of days?

Maybe Verin hope that the BA will be mostly erradicated in that time, which would make it easier for Mat to do what needs to be done, since both him and Perrin have now been targetted by the Shadow to a larger extent than before... Maybe the letter contains a list of BA that has been ordered to hunt Mat down?

Speaking of Perrin. Maybe he will get a visit from Verin too in ToM since both Mat's and Perrin's timeframe is a little behind everyone elses (at least Rand's). That would be a little weird, seeing her and knowing what will happen later.

Another thing, we know that an Aes Sedai can't lie even in a letter. But what about the "betray BA secret" oath Verin took. Can she write down those secrets in a letter and hand it off to someone? That would probably constitute as a betrayal, but maybe the loophole there is that the betrayal isn't a betrayal until the reciever of the letter actually reads it. So by making Mat promise not to read the letter until after she is either dead or have gotten her oath removed, she can give that letter to Mat.

I think Verin's letter says that Mat must/should go to the Tower and fetch the Horn. She told him to wait because she'd bring it to him if she had managed to come out of the Tower alive. But what she told Egwene had to come first.

Another likely possibility. Mat would most likely not survive going to the WT when the BA still roam the halls. Clearing those out first makes the trip a lot more safe :)

Tamyrlin
11-02-2009, 10:00 AM
Any way her letter, when opened, can open a Gateway into the White Tower where the Horn is being kept?

Davian93
11-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Any way her letter, when opened, can open a Gateway into the White Tower where the Horn is being kept?

LOL...no, probably not. But he'll be in Camelyn with plenty of channelers capable of making a Gateway for him..something Verin would know.

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 10:20 AM
LOL...no, probably not. But he'll be in Camelyn with plenty of channelers capable of making a Gateway for him..something Verin would know.
true, but given that Egwene's now in charge most of those items are going to be moved and I'm thinking that the Horn of Valere will be one item that they want kept secure.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 10:28 AM
true, but given that Egwene's now in charge most of those items are going to be moved and I'm thinking that the Horn of Valere will be one item that they want kept secure.

Well, Mat could always show Egwene Verin's letter and convince her, right? Seriously though, that's a good point. Assuming Siuan tells her where it is.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 10:35 AM
I had forgotten about the Horn. I would be willing to bet she mentions that in her letter as well.

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 10:52 AM
Verin may have taken the Horn out of the Tower already. Perhaps the letter contains instructions on how to find it.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Verin may have taken the Horn out of the Tower already. Perhaps the letter contains instructions on how to find it.

Not another Great Hunt!!!

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Not another Great Hunt!!!During my reread, I noticed that there were quite a few re-usable chapter titles. So why shouldn't this one be re-used too?

Ozymandias
11-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Yes.

Not necessarily. I think thats the most likely possibility, but again, it brings up lots of questions of how the TP functions.

For example, we know that Semi was meant to capture Rand. We also know that anyone can touch the TP, the only obstacle is the DO's permission. Is it not possible the entire situation was a goad, to make Rand touch the TP and thus turn him to the Shadow?

Ozymandias
11-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Verin may have taken the Horn out of the Tower already. Perhaps the letter contains instructions on how to find it.

I'm pretty sure she hasn't. I'll have to go back and check, but we've had one Horn of Valere sighting (Fain, when he recovers the dagger) since the early chapters of tSR. Verin has mentioned that she's been incapable of going back to the Tower, and I just don't remember where she took the Two Rivers girls. If she didn't take the to the Tower, the timing we have indicates strongly she would not have time to go to the Tower, go to Tear, go to the Damonas, and wait there for months.

Maybe terez or someone can help me out with the timing. Sadly, I'm in class and have no access to the books except memory.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 01:40 PM
Maybe terez or someone can help me out with the timing. Sadly, I'm in class and have no access to the books except memory.

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

The Chronology isn't updated for tGS yet, but Verin's departure from Rand's company is marked.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Is it not possible the entire situation was a goad, to make Rand touch the TP and thus turn him to the Shadow?
I'm afraid this question is going to be up to personal opinion for the foreseeable future. The way I read it, it seems obvious that nobody expected Rand to suddenly have access to the True Power, and it's shocking but logical that his link with Moridin could possibly give him that access. Since the link is "poorly understood" by everyone, I don't think it could be counted on to have this particular effect, except in hindsight.

As for "anyone can touch the True Power" - I don't disbelieve that this is basically true, but I don't really believe that it's as simple as all that.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 02:02 PM
Verin has mentioned that she's been incapable of going back to the Tower, and I just don't remember where she took the Two Rivers girls.
Problem is, we now know that the story she fed Mat may have been fabricated, at least partly. ;)

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 02:08 PM
As for "anyone can touch the True Power" - I don't disbelieve that this is basically true, but I don't really believe that it's as simple as all that.

Past discussion seem to me to have concluded that the ability to Channel the OP is a prerequisite for Channeling the True Power. Thus "anyone" is an overstatement or lacks a qualifier.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:12 PM
RJ has confirmed that, actually. You have to be a channeler to use the True Power.

Ozymandias
11-02-2009, 02:59 PM
Past discussion seem to me to have concluded that the ability to Channel the OP is a prerequisite for Channeling the True Power. Thus "anyone" is an overstatement or lacks a qualifier.

Yes yes, thats what I meant. The point being, anyone capable of channeling is also capable of theoretically accessing the TP.

Of course, there also has to be some other way to do it. Lanfear, as Mierin, accessed the TP without even having faced the Dark One. The notion we get that there was a barrier she bored through to access it supports that. Thus, perhaps it isn't totally out of the question that Rand unwittingly found his way through as well.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 03:01 PM
Past discussion seem to me to have concluded that the ability to Channel the OP is a prerequisite for Channeling the True Power. Thus "anyone" is an overstatement or lacks a qualifier.
I took that as a given within the context of the conversation.

jason wolfbrother
11-02-2009, 06:38 PM
not a Great Hunt. How about a scavenger hunt? ;)

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 07:17 PM
I took that as a given within the context of the conversation.
You know enough about the context to see that. I was relatively certain that "anyone who can channel" was meant, but Noobs might not see that, and it is a misconception I've seen stated before.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 08:07 PM
noob?

As in wilders? :p

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 08:09 PM
The most interesting bit to me was the final verse. Those are from the Seanchan prophecies, the ones Tuon quotes. (erm, Fortuona I mean) The ones "tainted" by Ishamael.
Does this imply that ole Randyboy will in fact kneal before the Crystal throne? Or am I reading too far into an end-of-book prophecy mention? (Pretty sure this has been disproven by Word of Creator, but what if Ishy actually tainted the RANDland ones, and the Seanchan ones are the correct ones? That'd be fun :D)

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 08:38 PM
We know that the Crystal Throne is likely a ter'angreal that causes awe, wide-eyed, mouth-drying awe.

If Rand were to wind up over there it's possible that it could overpower him, causing him to kneel, although, given that it's a book and there are other prophecies involved I can see Rand figuring a way around the device, shutting it off, and then reversing the tide as it were.

There's also something about Rand doing Nine impossible things...and these two events just might be related.

nameless
11-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Not necessarily. I think thats the most likely possibility, but again, it brings up lots of questions of how the TP functions.

For example, we know that Semi was meant to capture Rand. We also know that anyone can touch the TP, the only obstacle is the DO's permission. Is it not possible the entire situation was a goad, to make Rand touch the TP and thus turn him to the Shadow?

That was certainly how I read it. Moridin/Ishamael seems to believe the war between Light and Shadow follows the same basic rules as the game of sha'rah and so far all the evidence points to him being right. His first resort was to try to take control of the Fisher, ie. turn Rand to the Shadow. When that didn't work he tried to remove the Fisher from the board entirely, culminating in his failed attempt to kill Rand at the end of TDR. That leaves him with only 1 winning strategy: "When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not" (Path of Daggers, "Deceptive Appearances"). Semirhage's attack was likely not meant to succeed, but merely to push Rand into a corner. It is unclear whether the ultimate purpose was to force him to touch the True Power or merely to push him into the mindset of a cold-blooded killer. Either one could qualify as the real-life equivalent of standing on a black square in sha'rah. From there all the Shadow has to do is stand back and watch as Rand's corrupted ta'veren web destroys everything around him.

Terez
11-02-2009, 10:02 PM
Semirhage's attack was likely not meant to succeed, but merely to push Rand into a corner.
That's exactly how I read it, even the first time when I only skimmed it in the bookstore right before closing time (well, I would say it succeeded at what it was intended to do, but I think you would too). But I didn't connect it to sha'rah - thanks for bringing up the connection. I did think of Moridin 'playing both sides of the board', but not the actual game play.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 10:13 PM
The most interesting bit to me was the final verse. Those are from the Seanchan prophecies, the ones Tuon quotes. (erm, Fortuona I mean) The ones "tainted" by Ishamael.
Does this imply that ole Randyboy will in fact kneal before the Crystal throne? Or am I reading too far into an end-of-book prophecy mention? (Pretty sure this has been disproven by Word of Creator, but what if Ishy actually tainted the RANDland ones, and the Seanchan ones are the correct ones? That'd be fun :D)
The final quote was from a different collection of Prophecy than the "corrupted" Prophecy. The corruption is a disagreement between the pre-Luthair and Randland version of the KC and the copy Luthair "brought with him."

Luthair could not possibly have had a corrupt copy, so all of those (thousands of) other copies (on two isolated continents) must of course have been wrong. :rolleyes:

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Luthair could not possibly have had a corrupt copy, so all of those (thousands of) other copies (on two isolated continents) must of course have been wrong. :rolleyes:Hehehe, yeah well, it was a joke first and foremost :rolleyes:

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 11:31 PM
Hehehe, yeah well, it was a joke first and foremost :rolleyes:
Unfortunately people seem to be arguing for that possibility as a serious argument for Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 12:22 AM
You know enough about the context to see that. I was relatively certain that "anyone who can channel" was meant, but Noobs might not see that, and it is a misconception I've seen stated before.
Fair enough. I guess it's been so long since we had a good influx of newbies that we could be a bit lax in explaining things sufficiently. ;)

Mort
11-03-2009, 03:34 AM
Of course, there also has to be some other way to do it. Lanfear, as Mierin, accessed the TP without even having faced the Dark One. The notion we get that there was a barrier she bored through to access it supports that. Thus, perhaps it isn't totally out of the question that Rand unwittingly found his way through as well.

So far as we know, Mierin were never able to access the TP. They felt some kind of energy source behind the barrier (pattern) and tried to access it, resulting in all kinds of trouble. It seems the DO must grant the use of TP to the wielder, therefor I don't think that he'd just give it away as soon as they bore through to his prison.

Terez
11-03-2009, 04:02 AM
I don't think that access to the True Power is necessarily blocked to those who haven't been granted access. They're just not dumb enough to try to slip that past the Dark One (and in some cases, not dumb enough to risk the damage to body and mind).

Mort
11-03-2009, 01:54 PM
I don't think that access to the True Power is necessarily blocked to those who haven't been granted access. They're just not dumb enough to try to slip that past the Dark One (and in some cases, not dumb enough to risk the damage to body and mind).

Mogheiden seems to think TP is only for those he wishes to use it:


The strange shield Shaidar Haran had used on her—Myrddraal could not, but it did—
the shield was not in evidence, yet she did not consider channeling. The True Power was denied her, of
course—that could be drawn only with the Great Lord's blessing—



This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more. She knew that some men who
could channel survived in this time aside from al'Thor—this fellow was much of a size with al'Thor.—but she
had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen
knew- In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold
down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to
resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.
"You have been given distinction greater than yo'u know," she told him. As though her filthy dress was
the finest streith, she took the armchair opposite him. "Bring me some of that wine, and I will tell you. Only
twenty-nine others have ever been granted—"

One Armed Gimp
11-03-2009, 02:41 PM
Unfortunately people seem to be arguing for that possibility as a serious argument for Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne.

Honestly, though can we really discount this part of the Prophecies? I am not saying that RL Prophecies are necessarily corrupt. Without knowing which parts were corrupted and how, we can only make guesses. I could easily see Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

And yes, I know, he is also supposed to bind the nine moons to serve him. And those are about as opposite as leading the spears to war and slaying his people with the sword of peace.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 03:33 PM
I could easily see Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

If he does, then Ishamael wins.

Mention of the Crystal Throne is the key phrase for identifying a corrupted Prophecy. BG Miraj believes that the presence of that key phrase identifies the copy as one conforming to Luthair's "Pure Copy" and therefore "corrupted." We know it is actually the opposite, it identifies a corrupted copy of the KC with some critical pharase replaced by the reference to the Crystal Throne.

The whole point of there being a corrupted prophecy is apparently to subject Rand to a ter'angreal that imposes "Awe" aka Compulsion similar to the "Glamoury" Moggy used on Nyneave and Elayne. A ter'angreal which just happens to be located on the wrong continent for him to be ready for T'G. (a corruption designed at a time when Traveling had been lost and the wrong continent meant several months travel to reposition.)

Ozymandias
11-03-2009, 09:07 PM
The whole point of there being a corrupted prophecy is apparently to subject Rand to a ter'angreal that imposes "Awe" aka Compulsion similar to the "Glamoury" Moggy used on Nyneave and Elayne. A ter'angreal which just happens to be located on the wrong continent for him to be ready for T'G. (a corruption designed at a time when Traveling had been lost and the wrong continent meant several months travel to reposition.)

I disagree. While it might be a stratagem by Ishy when he awoke during Hawkwing's time, it's by no means assured.

Why couldn't it be much more likely that as the Seanchan began to expand their holdings against the patchwork of kingdoms that were on the western continent, they deliberately fabricated this prophecy? They never knew Shadowspawn. A few hundred years in, they might have wanted a little extra legitimacy, and the only thing everyone agreed upon was the Dragon would be Reborn. They probably thought the Last Battle a myth, and as a means of assuring their control, spread this false line that the savior of mankind would be subservient to the Crystal Throne? They've been in complete control of Seanchan for either a hundred or three hundred years (forget which it is), more than enough time to burn all the older copies.

And again, its probably possible to resist the Crystal Throne. I doubt its Compulsion, or not anything particularly strong. Rand would certainly not kneel without holding the Power... and shouldn't that be enough to protect him?

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 09:34 PM
I believe Fain's power was completely unique to him and was the result of the Mordeth/Fain quagmire along with the Ishy "distilling" process. I'd love to know what that "distilling" actually was.

It wasn't dat stilling over dere, it was dis stilling over here.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 11:22 PM
I disagree. While it might be a stratagem by Ishy when he awoke during Hawkwing's time, it's by no means assured.

Do you have some evidence to refute BG Miraj's assertion that the "pure version" originated with the version Luthair brought with him?

If an origin for the source of rhe courruption -- or pure version from the Seanchan perspective -- was not cited by RJ, then you might well have a point.

However, RJ did put words in BG Miraj's head to tell us how the corruption happened, so without some contradiction from the books or RJ, you haven't a leg to stand on.

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:24 AM
If he does, then Ishamael wins.
Bullshit. Ishamael might like to think so, but Tuon is married to Rand's childhood friend. Ishamael couldn't have anticipated that. ;)

One Armed Gimp
11-04-2009, 09:46 AM
Why couldn't it be much more likely that as the Seanchan began to expand their holdings against the patchwork of kingdoms that were on the western continent, they deliberately fabricated this prophecy? They never knew Shadowspawn. A few hundred years in, they might have wanted a little extra legitimacy, and the only thing everyone agreed upon was the Dragon would be Reborn. They probably thought the Last Battle a myth, and as a means of assuring their control, spread this false line that the savior of mankind would be subservient to the Crystal Throne? They've been in complete control of Seanchan for either a hundred or three hundred years (forget which it is), more than enough time to burn all the older copies.

My point exactly, we can not know for certain which Prophecies have been corrupted and by whom. I was even thinking a similar possibility that the Seachan added to them afterward, who knows, maybe someone had a Foretelling and they added it.

This much I do know. It is possible for Rand to travel there along with Tuon. It is possible they merely meant that he would kneel before the Empress. People, such as Tuon, will take these Prophecies for truth and act on them as such regardless of their origin. Again, I could easily see a newly not so crazy Rand kneeling in order to bind the Seachan to him.

Bullshit. Ishamael might like to think so, but Tuon is married to Rand's childhood friend. Ishamael couldn't have anticipated that.

Either way, that is in the Prophecies as well.

"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown."

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 09:51 AM
Yeah, but it is not at all certain that Ishamael could foresee that the descendants of Luthair would start using the raven as one of their symbols. And I'm not sure that at the time, he knew who the fox was going to be either.

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 12:16 PM
My point exactly, we can not know for certain which Prophecies have been corrupted and by whom.

I don't know how RJ could have told us more clearly what the corruption consists of and where it originated than BG Miraj's viewpoint -- except for an author's note immediately following that viewpoint that said:

Hey look people, It is the seanchan versions that are wrong because somebody tampered with Luthair's copy and the Seanchan think Luthiar shit chocolate and peed lemonade so his copy had to be pure and untainted.

One Armed Gimp
11-04-2009, 12:37 PM
That is merely a way to show that there are differences, not that the part is in fact 100% corruption on the part of Ishy or whomever.

Mort
11-04-2009, 02:10 PM
About the wolfking and the fox marrying the raven, there is nothing that says that part isn't in the prophecies in randland, just never been mentioned.

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 02:23 PM
That is merely a way to show that there are differences, not that the part is in fact 100% corruption on the part of Ishy or whomever.
Can you cite any contradiction to Miraj's assertion that Luthair's copy is the source of the corruption?

There is no direct evidence that Ishamael was behind the corruption of Luthair's copy, but there is also no other real contender for his claim of a "doom yet to come."

The point is that Miraj's POV identifies and explains the corruption as identified by the key phrase "Kneeling before the Crystal Throne" and therfore we know positively that that phrase is NOT Prophecy and NOT going to be fulfilled -- no matter how hard the Seanchan try to force a fulfillment.

There is remote possibility that it is not Ishamael who will win if Rand does kneel and fall under the influence of the Crystal Throne, but whoever caused the corruption will win and it is functionally the same thing as "Ishy wins."

One Armed Gimp
11-04-2009, 02:40 PM
Can you cite any contradiction to Miraj's assertion that Luthair's copy is the source of the corruption?

Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.

I am not saying its prophecy, but I would not be surprised to see Rand kneel to either the empress or the Crystal Throne itself.

People just seem so closed to the idea. It amuses me.

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:42 PM
WH, have you ever heard of a 'red herring'?

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 02:56 PM
Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.

How else do you propose that RJ should have revealed the nature and source of the corruption?

Miraj's POV is "an uncontradicted source" If we do NOT accept his thoughts as fact, then there is no evidence whatsoever as to the nature and source of the contradiction.

If you can find some canon source that contradicts Miraj's POV, then you have an argument, but I'm reasonably certain no such source exists.

One Armed Gimp
11-04-2009, 03:29 PM
I guess I just never made the leap of faith that any uncontradicted thought of a character was fact.

There is really no point in arguing this. Neither of us can prove that the other in fact wrong or right. Well I guess you could prove me wrong if I were willing to accept that any uncontradicted source such as a characters thoughts were fact, but I am not, so you won't.

However, I doubt I will be able to get you to budge from your belief either.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 05:08 AM
Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.Yes, by the very simple fact that if the "kneeling before the Crystal Throne" had been in the original, then every single two-bit lord would have had a Chrystal Throne of his own, so that the DR could properly kneel when he finally showed up.
The simple fact that there isn't a thriving Crystal-Throne-making-industry in Randland proves that it is a corruption.

One Armed Gimp
11-05-2009, 06:52 AM
You are assuming that the RL version is the the 100% correct version. Who is to say that is the case? The phrase could easily have been adapted from the Prophecies of the Dragon that existed in Seachan prior to the consolidation, which, for all we know could have a more correct uncorrupted copy.

No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 07:45 AM
Well, we do know that the AS who were going to build the Stone of Tear did so specifically because of the Prophecies, and they definitely were in what is now (sort of) Randland. That was during the Breaking, of course, so some of them may have been able to walk to what is now Seanchan.

Furthermore, how many truly different versions do we know about?
1. There is the Randland version. I never heard of different versions there, only of different translations and interpretations.
2. There is the Luthair version.
3. There are the other, suppressed, Seanchan versions. Those may or may not have been identical to each other. They may or may not have been identical to version 1. But they were not identical to version 2.

Given that, I would guess that version 3 was indeed the same as version 1, and that version 2 was the only different one. One single volume, whereas the "corrupted ones" existed in independent multitudes. That suggests rather very strongly indeed that it was Luthair's version which was corrupted.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 10:06 AM
Given that, I would guess that version 3 was indeed the same as version 1, and that version 2 was the only different one. One single volume, whereas the "corrupted ones" existed in independent multitudes. That suggests rather very strongly indeed that it was Luthair's version which was corrupted.

Well, lets put it in real-life terms. The King James version of the Bible was written in the early 1600s. It's widely believed by scholars to be one of the least accurate translations (as far as translation from Hebrew/Aramaic goes), but it is one of the most widespread and respected versions of the Bible in English.

Anyway, the point is that just because there's only one copy of version 2 and millions of copies of version 1, that doesn't mean version 2 is corrupt. It's entirely possible that the early editions of version 1 were corrupted and later on widely disseminated and distributed, while version 2 is the accurate one, but wasn't disseminated at all. Your argument here is akin to terez's "everyone else thinks it's true" argument in the construct vs real discussions.

Not that I believe this (regarding prophecies).. just playing devil's advocate.

nameless
11-05-2009, 01:53 PM
You are assuming that the RL version is the the 100% correct version. Who is to say that is the case? The phrase could easily have been adapted from the Prophecies of the Dragon that existed in Seachan prior to the consolidation, which, for all we know could have a more correct uncorrupted copy.

No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.

It's partly a question of motivation and partly a question of logistics. The people of the Westlands have no idea what the Crystal Throne is and therefor no motive to remove mention of it from their version of the prophecies. The Seanchan, on the other hand, have every reason to edit out the "bind the Nine Moons to serve him" verse. Alternatively, if we're blaming the discrepancies on Ishamael rather than political expediency it comes down to a question of numbers. Corrupting every single copy on an entire continent would be a Herculean undertaking. Corrupting the handful of copies on ships in Luthair's fleet would be much simpler.

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 05:15 PM
No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.

Just how much more "definitive" than Miraj's POV would RJ have to be to present evidence you'd consider valid?

The source and nature of the corruption has been revealed, you simply refuse to accept it because RJ didn't step outside of the story to use nean signs and brass bands to announce it.

Lord Bloodpath
11-05-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm very slightly saddened that we're not talking about 'new theories' that tGS opens/closes/flips/rotates.....

But just to jump in on the fun......... I nominate WH as The Champion of Logic for this thread and give props to Gonzo and Nameless for also supporting the cause of Reason. Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that before the printing press (which I'm reasonably certain no one in Randland has had access to for awhile) there weren't many copies of any particular book and they each were made more or less by hand. This actually increases the chances of corruption due to sleepiness, spilled coffee, and the occasional malicious jerk bent on perverting truth. It's not very hard to track down the guy who wrote six copies of a book and figure out where his copies went or who decided to make copies of those. I'm actually thinking that a whole continents' copies are probably no more than a few dozen or so. I realize that this weakens the argument in favor of there still existing any trustworthy copies being *anywhere* at all, but since we can all (I sincerely hope) agree that some of the prophecies have been fulfilled already, accurate copies do, in fact exist and we'll leave this thought alone.

Of course, you don't even need to Travel or Compel anyone to rewrite the one and only copy that everybody (I hope again) knows that Ishy had easy access to and which went on to be carried by the guy who conquered a continent and which we are informed (with absolutely no logical reason to think otherwise) that every other copy found was rewritten to conform with.

The fact that we have heard nothing about conflicting/corrupted copies of the KC from anyone in the Westlands leads me to believe that whatever copies are in the Westlands either all agree with each other or that we have only heard about those prophecies that everyone who has bothered to learn about what is in the KC has agreed are accurate. Every. single. prophecy. except. the Seanchan KC.

Okay, on to the Bible thing :rolleyes: Mister Devil's Advocate ;)
Well, lets put it in real-life terms. The King James version of the Bible was written in the early 1600s. It's widely believed by scholars to be one of the least accurate translations (as far as translation from Hebrew/Aramaic goes), but it is one of the most widespread and respected versions of the Bible in English.

Anyway, the point is that just because there's only one copy of version 2 and millions of copies of version 1, that doesn't mean version 2 is corrupt. It's entirely possible that the early editions of version 1 were corrupted and later on widely disseminated and distributed, while version 2 is the accurate one, but wasn't disseminated at all. Your argument here is akin to terez's "everyone else thinks it's true" argument in the construct vs real discussions.



as much as I might disagree with the KJB, none of the mistranslations come even close to turning 'bind the 9 moons' into 'kneel to the crystal throne.' Do I really need to go on? Okay, I will.... during a large portion of their history, I've heard that the Jews had some run-ins with persecution. There was even a good long time where the Jewish Nation was split up into 'Jews near Germany' and 'Jews in Arab lands.' Well, when they all got to the Octacentennial Family BBQ, there were so many different customs that had sprung up from living apart that they almost didn't recognize each other. There were, however, some distinct and possibly surprising similarities. Chief among these was that all of the handwritten bible scrolls that had been saved from fires and bandits and tigers and idiots with pens were all exactlythe same. No mistranslations, errors, additions or ommissions. The point is that when something is meaningful to you and represents your salvation, you tend to take decent care to *protect* it and maintain it's *accuracy.*

So, to conclude, Rand has not now, nor will he ever be kneeling to any thrones composed of crystal or wives of his friends. Unless Brandon reads this and decides to spike the ball because he gets final say and I've been too much of a wisemouth here.

Uno
11-05-2009, 05:34 PM
Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that before the printing press (which I'm reasonably certain no one in Randland has had access to for awhile) there weren't many copies of any particular book and they each were made more or less by hand. This actually increases the chances of corruption due to sleepiness, spilled coffee, and the occasional malicious jerk bent on perverting truth. It's not very hard to track down the guy who wrote six copies of a book and figure out where his copies went or who decided to make copies of those. I'm actually thinking that a whole continents' copies are probably no more than a few dozen or so. I realize that this weakens the argument in favor of there still existing any trustworthy copies being *anywhere* at all, but since we can all (I sincerely hope) agree that some of the prophecies have been fulfilled already, accurate copies do, in fact exist and we'll leave this thought alone.

Well, they definitely have printing in Randland. The Travels of Jain Farstrider "was first printed in 968 NE and has been continuously reprinted ever since," according to the glossary of DR.

nameless
11-05-2009, 05:41 PM
There was also an upgraded printing press on display in one of Rand's universities (I want to say the Carhien branch). However, I think the point was that the prophecies date back to the Breaking and there was definitely a point in time before society had recovered sufficiently to mass-produce books when they must have been copied out by hand.

Lord Bloodpath
11-05-2009, 05:41 PM
hmmm.... to that, I shall respond, "ouch." my bad, I guess. Still, I get the impression that books are pretty rare. Pretty sure it says that right out in tEotW.

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Well, lets put it in real-life terms. The King James version of the Bible was written in the early 1600s. It's widely believed by scholars to be one of the least accurate translations (as far as translation from Hebrew/Aramaic goes), but it is one of the most widespread and respected versions of the Bible in English.

To be precise, the King James Bible was the only approved english translation of the Bible until the 1960's. In some parts of the world, it was a felony to print a version of the Bible that was not the King James Version. But until the Seanchan decreed Luthair's was the only true version of the KC, there was no "official" version or translation. The Kc is more like the collected works of the Brothers Grim, Hans Christian Anderson, and 1001 Arabian Nights -- or like the collected works the catholic church picked over for inclusion in the "one true Bible."

If the KC can be compared to Scripture, the Seanchan version is morelike the King James version than the rest of the world's versions because it is designtated as the official, pure, not to be questioned, version of the KC -- Just as the King James Version was the official, pure, divinely inspired, "not to be questioned on pain of death," version of the Bible.


There are undoubtedly errors in translation and other "corruptions" in the KC, but they're random and none seems to appear in every copy of the KC. Thus we have epigrams in the books tagged as "a much disputed translation." Probably no edition/printing/translation of the Randland copies is identical to any other; OTOH, every copy of the Seanchan version is identical to Luthaoor's Pure Version."

The "Crystal Throne" corruption isn't one of those random coruptions thought, because it is missing from EVERY non-seanchan and pre-luthair-seanchan copy and THE marker of "corruption" as far as the Seanchan are concerned.

That's not the work of random error, it is almost certainly a deliberate distortion.

One Armed Gimp
11-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Just how much more "definitive" than Miraj's POV would RJ have to be to present evidence you'd consider valid?

The source and nature of the corruption has been revealed, you simply refuse to accept it because RJ didn't step outside of the story to use nean signs and brass bands to announce it.

You are absolutely correct. Until BS tells me otherwise, its open to interpretation.

I do consider his point of view valid. He talked about differences in the Prophecies between 3 sources, the ones in Seachan prior to the Consolidation, the ones brought with Luthair, and the ones in RL. I would even argue that there is a possible fourth. It may be that Luthair brought over a copy from RL that matches what is there currently and was changed during the Consolidation.

Anyway, as I said before, I know that I will not get you to see my point. You also will not get me to change my belief. I am done, we have already hi-jacked this thread enough.

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 06:42 PM
hmmm.... to that, I shall respond, "ouch." my bad, I guess. Still, I get the impression that books are pretty rare. Pretty sure it says that right out in tEotW.
Not necessarily rare, just expensive. A backwater Inn like the Winespring might have collected ten or twenty books and have what is considered a huge library by Mat and Rand, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that nearly every household in a place like Emond's Field had one or two books.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 06:44 PM
Not necessarily rare, just expensive. A backwater Inn like the Winespring might have collected ten or twenty books and have what is considered a huge library by Mat and Rand, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that nearly every household in a place like Emond's Field had one or two books.

I got the impression that Rand and Tam, being herders, had more books than average. I'd say the actual townsfolk probably didn't have many, if any, books, while those who lived out on farms or ranches would have books. Less to do in the evenings, you know.

I'm sure the Congars substituted booze for books. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 04:51 AM
hmmm.... to that, I shall respond, "ouch." my bad, I guess. Still, I get the impression that books are pretty rare. Pretty sure it says that right out in tEotW.It takes more to make a lot of books than a good printing press. Just for starters, having paper (or a reasonable substitute) really helps. If you're limited to printing on stone tablets, then you aren't going to be having all that many books in your libraries, no matter how many printing presses you have.

So the limiting factor in Randland may be the availability of paper. Or perhaps there are really draconian copyright laws, making printing books simply not worthwhile from a commercial perspective.

Nikolas
11-07-2009, 10:00 AM
I was reading all the stuff that was said and I think I have a theory:
At one point in story Lews Therin explains how, in order to make the seals work they had to touch the DO with a strand of Saidin or something like that and this is what lead to saidin being tainted.
So my thinking is, that thanks to his bond with Moridin and his subsequent ability to use the True Power what if he used that to make a new prison or seal it up again. The DO can't taint his own power stuff, right? What does everyone else think of this?

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2009, 10:16 AM
Could work. Assuming, of course, that the DO doesn't cut off his link to the TP halfway through. Might be a tad embarrassing, that.

Nikolas
11-07-2009, 10:30 AM
Could work. Assuming, of course, that the DO doesn't cut off his link to the TP halfway through. Might be a tad embarrassing, that.
I guess the point that I'm thinking of is that Rand uses the TP through Moridin, I also don't think that the DO knows about his connection, though a couple of the forsaken seem curious. This would also give greater depth to the whole "Don't kill Rand" because Moridin doesn't know what would happen to him

Back OT is that in order for Rand to be cut off the DO would have to know about the bond and I don't think Moridin would tell him about that for fear of meddling or something by the DO

Make any sense?

Davian93
11-07-2009, 11:53 AM
I guess the point that I'm thinking of is that Rand uses the TP through Moridin, I also don't think that the DO knows about his connection, though a couple of the forsaken seem curious. This would also give greater depth to the whole "Don't kill Rand" because Moridin doesn't know what would happen to him

Back OT is that in order for Rand to be cut off the DO would have to know about the bond and I don't think Moridin would tell him about that for fear of meddling or something by the DO

Make any sense?


You really don't think the DO is completely aware of the Moridin/Rand connection?

I simply don't buy that. It makes far more sense that hte DO knew about it and decided to exploit it with the entire Semi setup. Semi got punished for failing and the DO got his claws in Rand tainting his efforts for most of the book (Seanchan truce failure, Arad Doman collapsing, destroying a huge palace with Balefire, etc). There were far too many benefits for the DO all due to Rand channeling the TP.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2009, 12:23 PM
While it is always said that no one but the one using it can detect the TP, I am not sure that is true in this case. I suspect that the DO could also detect it. In fact, I wouldn't bet the existence of existence on the gamble that he won't be able to detect it. :p

JSUCamel
11-07-2009, 01:18 PM
You really don't think the DO is completely aware of the Moridin/Rand connection?

I simply don't buy that. It makes far more sense that hte DO knew about it and decided to exploit it with the entire Semi setup. Semi got punished for failing and the DO got his claws in Rand tainting his efforts for most of the book (Seanchan truce failure, Arad Doman collapsing, destroying a huge palace with Balefire, etc). There were far too many benefits for the DO all due to Rand channeling the TP.

Well, we know that Demandred suspects that the DO doesn't know everything. I'm not entirely convinced that the DO would know about this connection. I'm not convinced he DOESN'T know, either. In short, I'm not convinced.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 01:28 PM
You really don't think the DO is completely aware of the Moridin/Rand connection?
I'm not convinced that the Great Lord understood the implications of the connection any better than anyone else did.

I think that it would be folly, though, to believe that he doesn't know about it now that it's happened.

Lord Bloodpath
11-07-2009, 08:23 PM
from the descriptions, channeling TP (heh, that just sounds really funny) seems like channeling the DO himself, so sealing him up with it seems kind of like putting the DO in some kind of wrestling hold that you hope holds after you die. I'm thinking it woulndn't actually work at any point, but it is an intriguing notion....

Leanne
11-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Brandon did make it very clear that one can touch the True Power ONLY with permission from the DO.

Terez
11-07-2009, 10:15 PM
lol, RJ made that very clear years ago.

Leanne
11-07-2009, 10:27 PM
I guess the point that I'm thinking of is that Rand uses the TP through Moridin, I also don't think that the DO knows about his connection, though a couple of the forsaken seem curious. This would also give greater depth to the whole "Don't kill Rand" because Moridin doesn't know what would happen to him

Back OT is that in order for Rand to be cut off the DO would have to know about the bond and I don't think Moridin would tell him about that for fear of meddling or something by the DO

Make any sense?
Yes, RJ made it clear. Brandon brought it up because of people suspecting that Rand was able to channel TP because of the link/bond with Morridin.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 03:18 PM
After reading TGS, the question I’m most interested in is: what the hell is the deal with Rand’s new sword?
We began to discuss it in the pre-TGS thread, but didn’t seem to get anywhere. And in the book, there are a few tantalizing hints at what it is and where it came from. i.e. its from Rand’s memories as opposed to LTT’s, but that its ancient, and that it was discovered under some statue.
From all this, I’m led to believe that its somehow connected to Rand’s visions from his past lives via the Rhuidean ter-angreal. Now that I’m typing this, could that possibly be what Brandon was talking about? That tiny tidbit of overlooked information?

One Armed Gimp
11-10-2009, 03:28 PM
Most believe it is Justice, Artur Hawkwings sword. Rand would remember this from tGH. Not sure if this has been confirmed or not.

Terez
11-10-2009, 03:29 PM
It has supposedly been confirmed.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 03:34 PM
where did that confirmation come from? There was no mention of it in TGS.

Terez
11-10-2009, 03:48 PM
It came from one of the moderators at Dragonmount, who supposedly has inside information.

ShadowbaneX
11-10-2009, 04:10 PM
in this sorta case it's either book signings or super secret sources that cannot be revealed lest the poster be assassinated by Grey Men.

FelixPax
11-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Tam, it's not directly tGS related but...

Is Valan Luca an ex-Tinker, similar the Luca in Rand's Rhuidean experiences who became "a lost one"?? See the tSR book, Chapter "The Road to the Spear" for that other Luca reference. Both Lucas' are "lost ones"?



Would this partially explain why Valan Luca's Circus took in low ranking Sea Folk acrobats?
Why Valan Luca would use the threat of violent to collect, a silver pennies entrance fee, from those three common Seanchan soldiers (KoD, Ch.7)???
And it would explain the design and colors of Valan Luca's wagon.
Not to mention some of Valan Luca's tales of visiting Shara previously (tFoH book, Chapter "A Small Room in Sienda" - to Nynaeve)
Do giant boar-horses exist in Shara or not; in addition to Seanchan, where Cerandin and her giant boar-horse are really from?

Solmancer
11-16-2009, 08:11 PM
I admit I haven't looked to see if anyone else has come up with this one, but this is my current project. I don't have books with me to provide quotes, though; it's more speculation based on vague memories of previous events.

That project is:

Rand's "saidin sickness" is caused directly by the Dark One trying to draw him towards the True Power more and more, perhaps exclusively.

In short, there are plenty of things linking Rand to the Dark One that it doesn't seem a stretch for this to be possible.

Mat is Better
11-16-2009, 11:54 PM
In short, there are plenty of things linking Rand to the Dark One that it doesn't seem a stretch for this to be possible.
So do you propose that it was the DO that gave Rand the True Power? My theory is that Rand drew it through Moridin. It just doesn't make sense for the DO to let Rand go when he's got a domination leash on him and as such could kill him or force him to do anything he wanted. The only excuse for that is extreme arrogance I think. I don't see why the DO would need Rand to go to him of his free will.

DahLliA
11-17-2009, 11:33 AM
I don't see why the DO would need Rand to go to him of his free will.

there's a star wars link in there somewhere ;)

Mat is Better
11-17-2009, 01:22 PM
there's a star wars link in there somewhere ;)
The emperor couldn't force Anakin to be bad, as the DO could to Rand with that device on his neck. Am I missing the point entirely? :confused:

DahLliA
11-17-2009, 01:24 PM
The emperor couldn't force Anakin to be bad, as the DO could to Rand with that device on his neck. Am I missing the point entirely? :confused:

was thinking more about palpatine and luke in return. but I think there's a wagon or two missing from my train of thoughts :p

Powerslave73
02-23-2010, 07:14 PM
Hi, kids- I'm new here!
Ok, anyway... I searched for this and didn't find it, so please tell me if this has already been discussed: The possibility that Logain could be a Forsaken in disguise. It seems that every time Logain appears, there are very discriptive phrases used in the narrative, phrases also used almost invariably when Demandred is in the scene.
I know Taim/Demandred was always a popular theory but I never got it. Too obvious.

Kimon
02-23-2010, 07:30 PM
Hi, kids- I'm new here!
Ok, anyway... I searched for this and didn't find it, so please tell me if this has already been discussed: The possibility that Logain could be a Forsaken in disguise. It seems that every time Logain appears, there are very discriptive phrases used in the narrative, phrases also used almost invariably when Demandred is in the scene.
I know Taim/Demandred was always a popular theory but I never got it. Too obvious.

So you think Demandred let himself be captured and severed...

Taim made sense as Demandred because of his strength in the power, his appearance, the proximity of his arrival-scene to the scene of Demandred at Shayul Ghul, and the fact that everytime he was around Rand, Lews Therin starting raving about Demandred. But then Demandred didn't recognize Flinn in Shadar Logoth, and RJ himself confirmed that Demandred was not Taim (he also said that we hadn't seen Demandred in disguise...)

But Logain? Sorry, but Logain is definitely not even a DF.

Powerslave73
02-23-2010, 07:38 PM
LTT raved any time he saw a man who could channel, and it wasn't just about Demandred. I think the only time he actually mentioned names, he went down a list of male Forsaken.
Do you think any male channeller "lets" himself be captured and gentled? Did Moghedien "let" herself be captured?
I'm not married to this theory, but please...

Powerslave73
02-23-2010, 07:40 PM
What RJ said, however, if he said that, kinda blows this away.

Kimon
02-23-2010, 07:49 PM
What RJ said, however, if he said that, kinda blows this away.

If you haven't found the RJ/BS Interview Database yet, you can find a link to it by looking at any post by Terez. Here are the relevant comments:

Here's one from RJ-

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton OH - Michael Martin reporting


Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?

A: NO. (I asked twice to make sure.)


Here's an even more recent one from BS-

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesaana's and Demandred's alter-egos on screen. Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams. Sanderson would not elaborate on whether Demandred's alter-ego had been seen in The Gathering Storm—Sanderson didn't want to narrow down the suspects for us if Demandred really had appeared in The Gathering Storm.

lurk
02-24-2010, 08:17 AM
Here's an even more recent one from BS-


Quote:
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesaana's and Demandred's alter-egos on screen. Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams. Sanderson would not elaborate on whether Demandred's alter-ego had been seen in The Gathering Storm—Sanderson didn't want to narrow down the suspects for us if Demandred really had appeared in The Gathering Storm.

Hmm this kinda blows Danelle from being mesaana, because she was mentioned in TSR when Siun was deposed. Danelle was thought to have brought in the "masons" that started the attack on the tower when Siun was deposed.

Unless Danelle has been killed somewhere before TPoD and Mesaana took her place but that feels like stretching it

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2010, 08:33 AM
I think that Sanderson meant "up to and including KoD", which would mean that appearing in TSR qualifies, but having a first appearance in TGS does not.

lurk
02-24-2010, 09:02 AM
crap did i type PoD, jeez i need to read posts better :o

But it can be interesting to see which (potentially) influential characters have been mentioned for the first time in TGS to find potential demmi candidates
~will go back to book to check~

Powerslave73
02-24-2010, 05:27 PM
:o Thanks, folks, for setting it straight. Damn!

alannalynn
04-24-2010, 12:36 AM
One of my own theories that's been rumbling in the back of my head for a while: what if the song the Tinkers are searching for is "Wash the spears," the Aiel battle song? It would be an ironic twist, because they largely avoid each other, and to accept the song would be a recognition/reconciliation of the lost ones. I don't know what other theories are out there about the song, but it's bothered me that the song hasn't been found and the last battle is coming.

(Hello, by the way, I'm Alanna, and this is post #2 for me? ^_^ I'm not new to the series by any means, but delayed for no reason in finding someone to talk to about WOT who wasn't my brother)

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2010, 04:01 AM
One of my own theories that's been rumbling in the back of my head for a while: what if the song the Tinkers are searching for is "Wash the spears," the Aiel battle song?Unlikely, assuming that a Tinker would recoginse the Song when he or she hears it.
While not many Tinkers will have witnessed Aiel battles, some undoubtedly did. They wouldn't be killed or even threatened themselves, so afterwards they could report on what they saw and (more importantly) heard to other Tinkers.

Then there's this:
"Sing?" Adan scoffed. "I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever."That shows that the idea of a song which was part of the Golden Age is actually older than giving up the Way of the Leaf and picking up the spear.

So while it is an interesting idea, it is not one that will work.

heridfel
05-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Am I missing something? Even if people find out the actual song, that it has to be sung by Aiel and Ogier, and that a Nym is needed to put it all together, isn't it pointless considering that Someshta was the last of the Nym, so any pursuit of seed singing is a blind alley. At least until the age when the Nym return (unless someone thinks you can fit a Nym in a stasis box).

heridfel
05-01-2010, 10:31 AM
Along those lines here is my theory, not sure if it's been posted before, probably has been discussed. Here it goes anyways what do people think of the idea of the Green man's grave site playing an important role after, during or just before the last battle. For example some character needs refuge (possibly Elayne and the babes, or if she dies giving birth someone scoops the babies up) anyways some character needs it and bam the Green Man's grave grove is there.

p.s. I trademark the alliterative phrase Green man's grave grove... awesome

jlrx81
05-01-2010, 08:19 PM
Hello, longtime lurker,

Forgive me if this has been discussed, but What about Fain?

I have been of the mind after finishing a complete re-read that the different sort of evil that Fain represents could be important. My thoughts are that the Dark One is not some sort of Dark Creator but that he came later, For example somewhere it talks about how that original bore was created or maybe created with a patch from the beginning. What if Fain's evil is what becomes the next DO?

The current one, obsessed with the Dragon always wants to destroy him. The Dragon defeats him somehow but has to seal up the next one, we have seen Fain gain unique powers and abilities and that could grow.

This is just a thought but I can see it.

Terez
05-01-2010, 09:03 PM
I think someone actually posted this as a formal theory, or tried to. And someone brought it up at a panel at JordanCon too. It sort of gets skewed by two things: 1, RJ said Fain was unique to this Age, something new altogether, so it's hard to see him having any sort of eternal role, and 2) it's hard to see how Fain could develop that sort of power. It's a neat-ish idea, but I think not all that feasible. Much more likely that Fain will do what everyone expects and play some sort of gollum role in the sealing of the prison.

Belazamon
05-01-2010, 09:30 PM
Along those lines here is my theory, not sure if it's been posted before, probably has been discussed. Here it goes anyways what do people think of the idea of the Green man's grave site playing an important role after, during or just before the last battle. For example some character needs refuge (possibly Elayne and the babes, or if she dies giving birth someone scoops the babies up) anyways some character needs it and bam the Green Man's grave grove is there.
Heh, I kinda like that. Chekhov's Nym.