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View Full Version : Lanfear Killed Asmodean - A Discussion (This title is not a spoiler!)


Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 12:55 PM
I'll humor this for now - I haven't given much room for belief on this theory, since as I laid out in a previous reply, we were told Cyndane/Lanfear says she was held, which makes it all sorts of crazy to put her there to kill Asmodean.

So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

By the way - want me to move this to General?

Sodas
10-31-2009, 01:00 PM
Oh boy.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 01:44 PM
Lanfear and Moiraine went through the doorway that leads to three wishes, right? So, if she was cunning, she could have wished for, at the very least, a temporary escape. But why kill Asmodean? Such a vast waste of resources and time. Lanfear knows how weak Asmodean is. I don't think she would 'escape' from Finnland simply to kill Asmodean -- she'd instead go after Rand, or the two girls.

However, she might have visited this ter'angreal back in the AOL, which would spell certain doom for her to enter it again. The manner in which they entered it may have dire consequences, also.

The largest clue that points towards it being Lanfear is Asmodean's reaction to seeing whoever was in that wine cellar. He was PETRIFIED. Lanfear is the only one that I know of who could evoke that strong of an emotion out of Asmodean.

Brita
10-31-2009, 02:42 PM
We don't really know when the DO re-incarnated Lanfear as Cyndane, mostly because we don't know exactly when she dies. But it is not a stretch to imagine she dies instantly or very soon after falling through the doorway. So she could have been back in the action very quickly.

Would Asmodean recognize Cyndane as Lanfear? That may be unlikely perhaps.....but who knows where that small door actually led to- there has been a lot of speculation on that. It could have been to a place that held Lanfear as her true self, and not as Cyndane- like Tel'aran'rhiod.

But if he did recognize her, it would certainly explain his surprise, his fear and his instant shock. And she has strong motive, a very recent and personal link with him and maybe even direct orders from Moridin to do this.

His reaction (extreme familiarity with the person, instant shock and terror) says Lanfear. Why would he be instantly shocked to see Aviendha standing there. Even any of the other Forsaken? He may be wary and surprised, but not shock and terror. Does he have that familiarity with Slayer to say "You?" like that? I don't recall that he does.

His reaction says Lanfear, and what happened to her after the fall through the doorway is enough of a mystery that there is a lot of ways she could be involved.

Neilbert
10-31-2009, 02:44 PM
I'll just tell you a story.

Lanfear tumbles through the doorframe, channeling everywhere. The Finns don't like this, so they take her and Moiraine prisoner. Lanfear knows how the Finns work, so she is able to barter with them for release. The price the Finns take is a portion of her channeling ability. Moiraine is playing a different game. She has asked for something more valuable, and has agreed to be held. She is planning on cheating, by having Thom and Mat come rescue her.

Lanfear escaped her imprisonment and realized a few things. She couldn't have Lews Therin, but she could still have her first love, power. She just needed to do some clean up. The only people who know she was a traitor are Rand and Asmodean. Nobody will believe Rand, but Asmodean is a liability.

She knows where Rand is going, so she hitails it over to Camelyn where she catches Asmodean napping (literally) and she dreamkills him. She does this so the Dark One can't bring Asmodean back. Of all the Chosen she is the only one with motive to kill Asmo permanently.

Asmodean out of the picture she can resume her plans as good little Chosen. Kill Lews Therin, become Nae'bliss, rule for eternity.

Only Morridin knows about Asmodean being a traitor, and decides it is time for Lanfear to be on a tighter leash.

Zaela Sedai
10-31-2009, 02:44 PM
NOW JOIN IT! (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=97)

Ivhon
10-31-2009, 02:48 PM
Fixed. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

Check linky...Im getting your faction admin screen.

If I were truly ebil.....naaah, I wont.

Zaela Sedai
10-31-2009, 02:52 PM
Fixed...but um could you delete the quote LOL

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 03:04 PM
I think I've fixed the links though.

1Powerslave
10-31-2009, 03:11 PM
So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

A wish fulfilled by the Finns. The deed was done as herself as Lanfear (in between wishes, before she became Cyndane etc.). She wished that she would get to kill Asmodean and it was granted. As for the actual details we can speculate. But if you are going to try to prove that this wasn't possible, then you have to make the case that the Finn can't grant wishes much at all, in spite of what we are told.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 03:15 PM
A wish fulfilled by the Finns. She wished that she would get to kill Asmodean and it was granted. As for the actual details we can speculate. But if you are going to try to prove that this wasn't possible, then you have to make the case that the Finn can grant wishes much at all.
I think it's a reasonable question. Are there any wishes the Foxes cannot fulfill? We know they can't transmigrate souls, and we know they can't hold souls (along with other things), so they are not omnipotent. Also, the Foxes say the words "Done", which I would suggest that means that depending on what is asked for, they could say "No".

1Powerslave
10-31-2009, 03:37 PM
I think it's a reasonable question. Are there any wishes the Foxes cannot fulfill? We know they can't transmigrate souls, and we know they can't hold souls (along with other things), so they are not omnipotent. Also, the Foxes say the words "Done", which I would suggest that means that depending on what is asked for, they could say "No".
I think that rather than a "No", you die (wishes touching the Shadow perhaps - the Dark One dead etc.), or your wish is wilfully interpreted and fulfilled in a way that could be said to be what you wished for but in no way wasn't. I.e. how Mat became free of Aes Sedai.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 03:43 PM
It could be they interpret it as best they can, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't/wouldn't tell someone no.

I want all of you to die.

"No."

I'm going to ask Brandon about the Treaties.

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:48 PM
I think I've fixed the links though.
I pointed that problem out to you three years ago. Glad you finally got around to fixing it. :D

Isabel
11-01-2009, 12:31 AM
I vaguelly remember a quote by RJ that the Fins had to drag Mat from the doorframe to hang him.
Anyone remembers this? Because that seems to indicate that the finns can't create magically doorways.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 01:57 AM
But boy is it sad.

I'll humor this for now - I haven't given much room for belief on this theory, since as I laid out in a previous reply, we were told Cyndane/Lanfear says she was held, which makes it all sorts of crazy to put her there to kill Asmodean.

So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

My general idea was not that Lanfear wished to kill Asmodean. Instead, she worded her wish to say that she wanted to be taken to Caemlyn to see a "friend." This was meaning Rand, and it was her intention to be brought there to kill him.

However, they deposited her in a position to kill Asmodean (ta'verenness, saying she wanted an out of the way place so not to startle her friend, the Finn being their manipulative selves and interpreting Asmodean as her friend, what have you). Having the opportunity, and meeting a person who is at fault for causing her some problems very recently, she killed Asmodean.

I figured she was using her first wish, and therefore would be returning to Finnland to complete her wishes.

The most important part of it was that I didn't think she wished to kill Asmodean -- it was a sidetrack and she took advantage of it.

But, really, who cares about Asmodean?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 09:20 AM
Okay, I care that it wasn't Graendal, beyond that, it will just be fun to find out and then to find out the details that were in Jordan's head that put it all together.

Wantanswers
01-24-2010, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Isabel
I vaguelly remember a quote by RJ that the Fins had to drag Mat from the doorframe to hang him.
Anyone remembers this? Because that seems to indicate that the finns can't create magically doorways
From an interview with Sanderson
Matt: Ok. This is a fun one that I don’t think I’ve heard before, can the Creator use the True Power?
Brandon: RAFO.
Matt: Can the Dark One use the One Power?
Brandon: RAFO
Matt: I figured I had to ask both. Are there any other sources of Powers either within the Pattern or outside of the Wheel? Are there any sources like…
Brandon: ...sources much like the One Power and True Power?
Matt: Right.
Brandon: I will have to RAFO that.
We’ll have to learn if there is another source of power. But if there is, could the Finns use it to create doors to other worlds?
There is another possibility too:
Matt: ...would the Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?
Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party Ter’angreal, Angreal, this sort of thing…
Matt: ...so, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?
Brandon: Certainly not permanently, as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability…
Matt: …from a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?
Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of Ter’angreal or…
Matt: …some item of power?
Brandon: Some item of power, something like that…of which they have great stores…
[what???]
Matt: ...Really…heh, so the obvious question, where did the Finns get great stores of Ter’angreal, Angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made.?
Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that its either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.
Matt: So, how many Finns are there?
Brandon: RAFO. I’m going to RAFO a lot of Finn stuff just so you know.
Couldn’t they have an object of power or a ter’angreal , that don’t need the use of OP, to create a gateway or door to other worlds. We know the Eelfinn wear bronze knives. We also know a bronze knife is needed to open a door to the Finnworld. Bloody ashes; a new question is raising:
Will any bronze knife do or is a special (power wrought?) one needed?

Crispin's Crispian
01-25-2010, 02:24 PM
There is a host of problems with the "Lanfear Wished It" theory.

If she used her first or second wish to get to Caemlyn (regardless of motive), what evidence is there to suggest the Eel'finn could pull her back?

If it was her final wish or if the Eel'finn failed in pulling her back, how did she get transmigrated? Where has she been? Moreover, when did she have the opportunity to be held by both the Ael'finn and Eel'finn?

Regarding motive, I think Neil has the best explanation I've heard--only Asmodean and Rand know she gave Asmodean to Rand. The problem with this is that Lanfear had already set Asmodean and Rand free--why kill him now? This requires that Asmodean had in some way compromised Lanfear and that she somehow found out about it. Either that, or she was still blind with jealous rage at Rand for the "other women" and wanted to kill everyone around him. But then again--why didn't she go after Rand directly?

There are just too many unknowns and assumptions that have to be made.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 02:50 PM
Or, if she couldn't go after Rand: why did she not kill Aviendha?

Neilbert
01-25-2010, 09:06 PM
There is a host of problems with the "Lanfear Wished It" theory.

Yes, the "Lanfear Wished It" theory is dumb.

Regarding motive, I think Neil has the best explanation I've heard--only Asmodean and Rand know she gave Asmodean to Rand.

Also the chodean kal. Of anyone, anywhere Lanfear has the most reason to want Asmodean dead, excepting possibly the Dark One (who we know didn't order it).

The problem with this is that Lanfear had already set Asmodean and Rand free--why kill him now?

There's a couple ways you can run with it. Rand clearly doesn't need a teacher to be able to defend himself, he just killed Rhavin. With even meager training he might become too much to handle.

Alternatively, it's not worth the risk anymore. Someone is going to go after Asmodean eventually, and when they do there's a chance he will spill the beans of the Lanfear situation. If Rand isn't going to be her lover, then there's no point in taking that chance.

But then again--why didn't she go after Rand directly?

Well, considering that this must be post *Finn capture, she is weakened in power. She also most likely no longer has her angreal. At full power and with an angreal she was at best an even match for Rand (and we know that if Rand were willing she would have died). Her weaker and with no angreal, and Rand with his angreal, means that he could probably shield and capture her. In short, because she would have lost, and knew it.

There are just too many unknowns and assumptions that have to be made.

I make two assumptions. One that she escaped *Finnland in a timely manner (which can't be argued for or against, so it's a fair one), and one that she didn't keep her angreal (which isn't even crucial to the theory).

Sodas
01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
I make two assumptions. One that she escaped *Finnland in a timely manner (which can't be argued for or against, so it's a fair one)

No, it can be argued against because of two things that we know.

1. We know time runs slower in Finnland than in Randland. So even a short trip to Finnland might have been too long for her to return in time to kill Asmodean in Cairhein hours after Lanfear fell through the Doorway.

2. We know the Cyndane was held by the Finn. So being held, or captured, conflicts with the concept of a speedy release.

Neilbert
01-26-2010, 08:17 PM
1. We know time runs slower in Finnland than in Randland. So even a short trip to Finnland might have been too long for her to return in time to kill Asmodean in Cairhein hours after Lanfear fell through the Doorway.

Incorrect. Time does not run slower in Finnland. It runs differently. It can run faster, or slower, it just can't run backwards.

2. We know the Cyndane was held by the Finn. So being held, or captured, conflicts with the concept of a speedy release.

Being held for an hour is still being held.

nameless
01-26-2010, 08:57 PM
In fact, because of the time differential they could have potentially held her for days in their world while less than one day passed in ours.

Sodas
01-26-2010, 09:42 PM
Incorrect. Time does not run slower in Finnland. It runs differently. It can run faster, or slower, it just can't run backwards.

Actually, it is correct because we have seen time in that particular Doorway run slower. We know that Mat was in the Doorway for 6 days, and he wasn't even held.

So no, if she was in Finnland for even a few moments, she couldn't have had the opportunity to kill Asmodean.

Neilbert
01-26-2010, 11:00 PM
Actually, it is correct because we have seen time in that particular Doorway run slower. We know that Mat was in the Doorway for 6 days, and he wasn't even held.

It changes. Just like TAR. The concept really isn't hard to understand. Just because time flows one way on one trip does not mean it will flow the same way on subsequent trips. In fact, it almost certainly won't.

nameless
01-27-2010, 01:40 AM
Is there anything from the books or interviews to say whether the time difference is constant or variable in the Finn worlds? I always figured the T'A'R time difference fluctuated so much because the Dreamworld encompasses hundred of Mirror worlds that each have a distinct time rate, which wouldn't really apply when you're looking at a single alternate reality, but I could be completely off base.

Terez
01-27-2010, 02:16 AM
Is there anything from the books or interviews to say whether the time difference is constant or variable in the Finn worlds?
Unless you think that time runs differently in Aelfland than in Eelfland....the ventures into Aelfland didn't seem to take any time at all. But those are the only examples we have to go on.

Cor Shan
01-27-2010, 04:04 PM
There is a host of problems with the "Lanfear Wished It" theory.

If she used her first or second wish to get to Caemlyn (regardless of motive), what evidence is there to suggest the Eel'finn could pull her back?

If it was her final wish or if the Eel'finn failed in pulling her back, how did she get transmigrated? Where has she been? Moreover, when did she have the opportunity to be held by both the Ael'finn and Eel'finn?

Okay, how about this: They didn't pull her back, they just killed her after she killed Asmo, and she was "held" prior to that. This assumes either the "slower time in Finnland" or "she meant a really short holding time."

This would also explain the lack of other Lanfear wishes.

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2010, 04:11 PM
But if they held on to the rules far enough to grant her one wish, then they would have given her three.

Cor Shan
01-27-2010, 04:33 PM
Good point... Still, if it was her last wish (I don't know why it would be...) they could have just killed her instead of snapping her back.

Crispin's Crispian
01-27-2010, 06:34 PM
It changes. Just like TAR. The concept really isn't hard to understand. Just because time flows one way on one trip does not mean it will flow the same way on subsequent trips. In fact, it almost certainly won't.

No, it's not hard to understand at all. It's just that there's no evidence for it. We've only seen one trip to Eel'finnland, and time ran much slower there than in the real world.

It's nice to assert your opinion, though.

Terez
01-27-2010, 07:07 PM
No, it's not hard to understand at all. It's just that there's no evidence for it.
As I pointed out earlier, that's not exactly true. It would be if we could be certain that Aelfland and Eelfland were separate worlds, but Lanfear's thoughts suggest that they are not; else, how could they both hold her?

FelixPax
01-27-2010, 09:45 PM
As I pointed out earlier, that's not exactly true. It would be if we could be certain that Aelfland and Eelfland were separate worlds, but Lanfear's thoughts suggest that they are not; else, how could they both hold her?

Those were Cyndane's supposedly thoughts, not Lanfear's. Cyndane thoughts are an unreliable source (Winter's Heart book).

There is no solid proof that Lanfear had ever visited both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Nor is there any solid proof that Cyndane's body holds Lanfear's soul now.


Birgitte told Perrin during his Wolf Dream with Hopper, that the Tower of Ghenjei was the way to the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Birgitte's knowledge should be accurate, while I don't trust Cyndane's thoughts one bit as she's been a plaything of Moridin ever since she showed up on scene.

Neilbert
01-27-2010, 09:58 PM
Nor is there any solid proof that Cyndane's body holds Lanfear's soul now.

Your lack of solid proof relies on your declaration that Cyndane is an unreliable narrator, to the degree that she doesn't know who she was. You will have to forgive me for dismissing such an extraordinary claim based on zero evidence.

nameless
01-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Those were Cyndane's supposedly thoughts, not Lanfear's. Cyndane thoughts are an unreliable source (Winter's Heart book).

There is no solid proof that Lanfear had ever visited both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Nor is there any solid proof that Cyndane's body holds Lanfear's soul now.


Birgitte told Perrin during his Wolf Dream with Hopper, that the Tower of Ghenjei was the way to the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Birgitte's knowledge should be accurate, while I don't trust Cyndane's thoughts one bit as she's been a plaything of Moridin ever since she showed up on scene.

You've posted this on at least 3 different threads now, and every time someone replies with the laundry list of reasons it's pure nonsense you just up and move it to a different thread. Case in point that Cyndane is Lanfear: she knows about the Choedan Kal access keys. No one except Rand, Lanfear, and Asmodean knew that there were a pair of intact access keys in Rhuidean. Since Asmodean died with no possible reincarnation he could not have told anyone about them after his death, and before his death the only Darkfriend he had contact with was Isendre, who reported that he did not tell her anything. Therefore, Cyndane did not learn about the access keys from Asmodean. Even if her memories are artificially created by Moridin as you suspect there is still the question of how Moridin learned about the access keys, as it obviously wasn't Rand or Asmodean who told him. I don't see why you're so resistant to the idea that Lanfear could have traveled from Eelfinn to Aelfinn offscreen but so ready to accept the idea that Moridin could fabricate an artificial personality offscreen and program it with information that only Lanfear knew.

Crispin's Crispian
01-28-2010, 11:54 AM
As I pointed out earlier, that's not exactly true. It would be if we could be certain that Aelfland and Eelfland were separate worlds, but Lanfear's thoughts suggest that they are not; else, how could they both hold her?

Sure, this introduces an element of doubt as to whether the flow of time is the consistent in Ael'finnland and Eel'finnland. Nevertheless, the only evidence we have shows time flowing slower there.

At best, we can say that it's possible time flows differently and that allowed Lanfear to be held while experiencing almost no time lapse in the real world. Possible.

Neilbert
01-28-2010, 09:09 PM
Vacuoles and TAR are also both evidence that when you aren't in the Pattern proper time flows differently. In fact, if time only flowed slower in *Finnland that would make it the odd man out.

There is no evidence that the concept of another consistent flow of time even exists in WOT.

I would upgrade your possible to probable. Likely even.

Crispin's Crispian
01-29-2010, 10:59 AM
Vacuoles and TAR are also both evidence that when you aren't in the Pattern proper time flows differently. In fact, if time only flowed slower in *Finnland that would make it the odd man out.

There is no evidence that the concept of another consistent flow of time even exists in WOT.

I would upgrade your possible to probable. Likely even.

But TAR and *Finnland are in the "Pattern proper." Or, at least, we have no reason to think they are not.

I'm sticking with possible, sorry. Even so, it's necessary but not sufficient, so probably not worth arguing over.

Tamyrlin
01-29-2010, 12:04 PM
We would be less certain if Jordan hadn't answered our questions about where the world of Finns resides. Instead, we know the Finns inhabit a parallel world. Parallel Worlds are within the Pattern, and we have been given no reason to believe that a Parallel World would exhibit the same properties as TAR regarding time differentials.

Terez
01-29-2010, 01:01 PM
necessary but not sufficient
LOL, I'm taking a logic class for the first time, so starting to notice words like this. I'm interested in the formal language, but it's surprising how little I need this class. I have more logic than the teacher. I don't know why that surprises me, but there it is....

Spasmodean
01-29-2010, 01:41 PM
But if they held on to the rules far enough to grant her one wish, then they would have given her three.

Would they?
"I want to go kill Asmo NOW"

Done.

Ok, now we can already talk of price since you've had a wish. *Lanfeargoessplat*

Crispin's Crispian
01-29-2010, 01:50 PM
LOL, I'm taking a logic class for the first time, so starting to notice words like this. I'm interested in the formal language, but it's surprising how little I need this class. I have more logic than the teacher. I don't know why that surprises me, but there it is....

I never took a logic class, but I'm sure I heard it in the context of logical arguments. You know, here at Theoryland we're all about pure logic.

Neilbert
01-29-2010, 02:03 PM
We would be less certain if Jordan hadn't answered our questions about where the world of Finns resides. Instead, we know the Finns inhabit a parallel world. Parallel Worlds are within the Pattern, and we have been given no reason to believe that a Parallel World would exhibit the same properties as TAR regarding time differentials.

We still have no evidence that the concept of a consistent flow of time is possible outside the pattern. Personally I would be very surprised if the answer were that time flowed a certain way in Finnland.

How old would Moiraine be at this point if time flow matched Mat's well under an hour equaling out to six days? Call it a half hour for math's sake. Every hour is 12 days, every day is 144 days. It's been months since we've seen Moiraine, I'll call it 3 (sure someone will correct me). Assuming a 365 day year in Randland (and a whole bunch of fudgy timeframes but it's really more of a rough idea) Moiraine has been in Finnland for 35 years. Poor girl. Mat needs to hurry up.

The only thing that is consistent is that when you leave the Pattern propper, and by that I mean the part of the Pattern that most people in Randland inhabit most of the time, time flow is inconsistent.

To directly counter your point, we have been given no reason to believe that parallel worlds would be different from TAR, or Vacuoles, or Mirror Worlds, in respect to time flow.

Casabamelon
01-29-2010, 02:37 PM
LOL, I'm taking a logic class for the first time, so starting to notice words like this. I'm interested in the formal language, but it's surprising how little I need this class. I have more logic than the teacher. I don't know why that surprises me, but there it is....

If I was only required to take the classes I needed, I would have graduated in two semesters with a 4.0. As it is, be glad that you have a (at least, passing) fancy in the class. Much better that some. I still don't know why Computer Science majors have to take Thermodynamics and 2nd level Calculus. I'm not going to design hardware and I have a calculator. Seriously, let me do something constructive with my time.

Carp. This is off topic... something topical, something topical...

Taim did it because he's Demandred!

*runs*
________
Weed vaporizer (http://weedvaporizers.info/)

Tamyrlin
01-29-2010, 04:10 PM
To directly counter your point, we have been given no reason to believe that parallel worlds would be different from TAR, or Vacuoles, or Mirror Worlds, in respect to time flow.

Technically, we've been told that such inhabitants of Parallel Worlds have souls, which therefore makes them threads in the Pattern. Parallel Worlds have Reflections and the souls of real individuals, which makes the Parallel World of the Finns more akin to The Parallel World that is Randland. However, I do agree that such comparisons alone do not indicate how time fluctuates in Parallel World of the finns.

Crispin's Crispian
01-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Carp. This is off topic... something topical, something topical...


I have an ointment that... nevermind.


Speaking of carp, you're only the third person I've ever heard use the fish in that context. The other two are also both from Theoryland, and one of them is me. Weird, no?

Belazamon
01-29-2010, 06:22 PM
Speaking of carp, you're only the third person I've ever heard use the fish in that context. The other two are also both from Theoryland, and one of them is me. Weird, no?
Out of curiosity, who's the third? I know I use it fairly regularly in RL, but I don't recall if I've used it here.

Casabamelon
01-29-2010, 10:45 PM
I have an ointment that... nevermind.


Speaking of carp, you're only the third person I've ever heard use the fish in that context. The other two are also both from Theoryland, and one of them is me. Weird, no?

I picked up my carp in the same place I aquired my bandolier of carrots. I used it occasionally before then, but that cemented it.

I hate speaking in code when you don't know if the other person is speaking in the same code as you. :p
________
Marijuana vaporizers (http://weedvaporizer.info/)

Crispin's Crispian
02-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Out of curiosity, who's the third? I know I use it fairly regularly in RL, but I don't recall if I've used it here.

None other than Eclipse.


I actually say "crab" in RL a lot more than "carp," but I think carp works better online.

Crispin's Crispian
02-01-2010, 10:12 AM
I picked up my carp in the same place I aquired my bandolier of carrots. I used it occasionally before then, but that cemented it.

I hate speaking in code when you don't know if the other person is speaking in the same code as you. :p
Yeah... Better to just assume we aren't? ;)

Heinz
02-12-2010, 03:48 PM
So I see the last serious post on this was a couple of weeks ago, and I'm not a frequent poster, but I'm sitting here at work and thinking on this as I've done many, many times in reading the many, many posts, theories and replies on this topic, and something suddenly occurred too me. Maybe others have mentioned this too. If so, I don't recall seeing it put this way, though I by no means make a claim to have read and remember all the posts surrounding this. Unfortunately, I don't have quotes handy and cannot dig through all the theories and replies at the moment so please bear with me. Its a new thought, not a drawn out theory/list of facts.

It was stated previously in this thread (and I'm sure in dozens of other places) that Lanfear was probably the only person we knew of at the time of Asmodean's death to invoke the reaction he gave upon instant recognition. There are others whom we could speculate on, but were not officially introduced at that point - Slayer, Moridin (if recognized in his new body), Shai'dar Haran, etc. Graendal is a possibility, and I agree a strong possibility. The next item disputes that though.

In an interview, Jordan says that Asmodean's killer should be intuitively obvious. Someone that it simply makes sense to have killed Asmodean. Well, Lanfear seems the most intuitively obvious, but certain facts/distortions put doubt into her doing it. Graendal, I'm not convinced, fits the 'intuitively obvious' mold. Slayer perhaps from what we know later, but not at the point of Asmodean's death.

Lanfear does make the most intuitive sense, but then we run into the issue of the Finn's and both their wishes and the timeline involved. I don't really think the Finn's would grant a wish to kill someone, or to 'cast and return' Lanfear so she can go do her thing to kill Asmodean. Granted I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem to fit with what we know of the Finn's. I also don't think its very logical for Lanfear to pick the killing of Asmodean as one of her wishes. If I was ever granted 3 wishes, killing someone who played as insigificant a role as Asmodean did in what Lanfear was angry about (Avi with Rand/Lewis Therin) simply wouldn't be even a consideration.

What does make the most sense to me out of all this is for Lanfear to have died shortly after going through the doorframe, and for the Dark One to have begun transmigrating Lanfear. At that point, the Dark One knows about Asmodean's betrayal, and has him killed by Lanfear. Or Moridin does, not wanting another (former) Forsaken around Rand. I'm more for the Dark One in this case though. The hole in this is the recognition factor, as this schedule of events means Lanfear was in her new body already. Though this is not something that she couldn't fix with a Mask of Mirrors and would be within her character to do. She's already been ordered to kill him by the Dark One, and wants Asmodean to know who is doing it.

It could be explained that Asmodean recognizes Lanfear's soul, regardless of the body, but I doubt that will occur. Either as something that can be learned, which wouldn't match with Graendal's POV in seeing Cyndane in later meetings, or as a talent of Asmodean's, which is never previously discussed, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is the timeline factor, for the Finn's to 'hold' Lanfear. But do we really know what holding means here? Did they hold her prisoner? Hold her for an hour? Hold her long enough for her to make a wish that required her death? Hold her and Moraine kills her? We simply don't know, and won't until the whole matter is revealed (if all the details ever are).

I think I'm going to re-read the chapters leading up to this, and see if there's a hint in tGS and Graendal's meeting with Moridin to support or dispute this thought. That or in Rand's meeting with Moridin would be where I would expect it, off the top of my head.

A critical point I'd like to add is what is said among the Forsaken who meet after in a later book. Who says what, who thinks what, and there again my lack of handy quotes makes me feel much less certain on this. I'll have to find that meeting to read too.

FoxyMat
02-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Well I have lurked here for a long time now and this topic made me feel the urge to post for the first time. When I read the scene where Asmodean dies two names came into my head on the idea of who had killed Asmodean; Sammael and Lanfear. Now seeing how Sammael has been confirmed dead and we never got anything from him indicating that he killed Asmodean I have begun to think Lanfear did it.

Now many you use the argument of Lanfear being held there to say that she could never have killed Asmodean as she is stuck in the tower. However time works differently in the Tower of Genji and Lanfear never said how long she was held there.

I don't agree with the idea of Lanfear getting a wish. I think that Lanfear got pushed into the tower and is channeling. (#1 mistake.) Then I think that she was held for a short while as the finns decided what to do with her. She starts to think thoughts that are about the dark one (#2 mistake.) The finns quickly kill her.

The DO then gives her a new body and we have cyndane. The DO tells her to go kill Asmodean if she wants her punishment to less. She quickly agrees and goes to kill him. (She is given orders of course to stay away from Rand.) Thinking that Asmodean is partly to blame for her being in this mess she decides that Asmodean is going to know who killed him. She weaves mask of mirrors and makes herself appear as Lanfear did then kills him.

Spasmodean
02-12-2010, 10:53 PM
It was stated previously in this thread (and I'm sure in dozens of other places) that Lanfear was probably the only person we knew of at the time of Asmodean's death to invoke the reaction he gave upon instant recognition.

It's been touted as 'fact' quite a lot.
That doesn't make it so.

Lanfear would produce such a reaction, this I'm sure.

So would Rahvin, since Asmo thinks him dead.

So would Semirhage, as Asmo mentions her quite a few times as someone he would rather avoid the attentions of.

The rest of the Forsaken...I'm not so sure. While Asmo is portrayed as a coward he has met these people at least once (shayol ghul) and has no reason beyond the arbitrary Nae'blis powergrab to think that any of them were there to kill him on sight.
The only other thing I can think of from the books that we knew at that time was that he'd told Rand that Graendal was in Arad Doman. Perhaps she thought that was motivation enough to kill him? But would Asmo know that from the moment he sets eyes on her in that pantry? I doubt it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-13-2010, 04:00 AM
Why Lanfear and not Moiraine?
I think that unexpectedly meeting Moiraine in a broom closet would have startled Asmodean quite a bit, and if she then uses balefire (which he would recognise her doing), the "No!" bit is easily explained too.

Of course, she does have an alibi, but then, so does Lanfear.

Nazbaque
02-13-2010, 07:08 AM
I like to think along these lines:

1)Lanfear and Moiraine get their wishes. There is no real reason why not.

2)As we see Mat make his wishes by accident, Lanfear doing so doesn't take a great leap of faith. Especially since she is extremely pissed. This a convinient type of reasoning I know, but frankly I find it odd so many people try to proove she didn't do it by pointing out it isn't a logical way to act.

3)The Eelfinn themselves might produce the "You? No!" reaction from Asmodean. If either Moiraine or Lanfear wished for Asmodean to die the Finns themselves could do the deed.

This is simply something I find believable and naratively satisfying. I'm always ready to be prooven wrong about this.

JanDSedai
02-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Re: nazbaque
1) Lanfear and Moiraine are channeling when they go thru the door. That automatically breaks the accords by which they grant wishes. At the very least, they will have to pay a price.

2) Maybe Lanfear expressed her shock at being kept captive by the 'Finns by saying, "I'd give anything to see that two-timing lint licker get what he's got coming," or words to that effect.

3) That had not occurred to me, but it might be true.

But we know that we haven't got eveything right, because RJ was playing his cards close to his chest. And we know(hope) that RJ/BWS are going to pull and ace out of their collective posteriors.
What really happens will be so much better than I can imagine. RAFO!

nameless
02-14-2010, 04:40 PM
When is channeling mentioned in the accords? Rand channeled in Aelfinnland and they didn't punish him, even though he inadvertently blinded them with his fiery sword.

GonzoTheGreat
02-15-2010, 03:28 AM
What really happens will be so much better than I can imagine. RAFO!Yes, it is going to be interesting how revealing the truth (that Asmodean accidentally killed himself when encountering a mirror) is going to be worked into the story. I haven't managed to come up with a plausible scenario for that, myself, so far.

dominominic
02-15-2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, it is going to be interesting how revealing the truth (that Asmodean accidentally killed himself when encountering a mirror) is going to be worked into the story.

Asmodean had a proper reflection?

There goes my "He's Shaidar Haran" theory...

Sodas
02-15-2010, 11:55 PM
So I see the last serious post on this was a couple of weeks ago, and I'm not a frequent poster, but I'm sitting here at work and thinking on this as I've done many, many times in reading the many, many posts, theories and replies on this topic, and something suddenly occurred too me. Maybe others have mentioned this too. If so, I don't recall seeing it put this way, though I by no means make a claim to have read and remember all the posts surrounding this. Unfortunately, I don't have quotes handy and cannot dig through all the theories and replies at the moment so please bear with me. Its a new thought, not a drawn out theory/list of facts.

It was stated previously in this thread (and I'm sure in dozens of other places) that Lanfear was probably the only person we knew of at the time of Asmodean's death to invoke the reaction he gave upon instant recognition.

Not true. Any of the Forsaken who knew he was a Traitor would have given the same reaction. Or anyone of the Dark that could possibly threaten Asmodean, like Mazrim Taim.

In an interview, Jordan says that Asmodean's killer should be intuitively obvious. Someone that it simply makes sense to have killed Asmodean. Well, Lanfear seems the most intuitively obvious,

Only if based upon motive. And even at that, I think that is overblown. At that point in time why kill her only link left with Rand? What motive would she really have had to kill him, and not continue to use him? Nothing. Just because Asmodean was thinking about her, doesn't mean Lanfear would have actually wanted to kill him at that point. She had more pressing issues, I'm sure.

I think the person with the best motive is Sammael, who had been trying to get his hands on Rand the entire time.

However, this isn't about motive. You are jumping to conclussions if you think Jordan feels motive is the deciding factor. It's not. It's opportunity. Opportunity is what Jordan thinks it's obvious to even a casual observer.

but certain facts/distortions put doubt into her doing it.

For all intents and purposes, there is absolutely no way she could have.

Graendal, I'm not convinced, fits the 'intuitively obvious' mold.

No, she doesn't. She was supposed to be in Illian with Sammael.

Lanfear does make the most intuitive sense, but then we run into the issue of the Finn's and both their wishes and the timeline involved. I don't really think the Finn's would grant a wish to kill someone, or to 'cast and return' Lanfear so she can go do her thing to kill Asmodean. Granted I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem to fit with what we know of the Finn's. I also don't think its very logical for Lanfear to pick the killing of Asmodean as one of her wishes. If I was ever granted 3 wishes, killing someone who played as insigificant a role as Asmodean did in what Lanfear was angry about (Avi with Rand/Lewis Therin) simply wouldn't be even a consideration.

What does make the most sense to me out of all this is for Lanfear to have died shortly after going through the doorframe,

No, she was held after she went through the doorframe. That doesn't mean she got the easy way out.

But I agree, she did probably die in there, eventually. Most likely from starvation.

and for the Dark One to have begun transmigrating Lanfear.

But then why didn't Moridin appear much sooner? Or the 'Gars for that matter. It takes books between death and their returns. That indicates that transmigration takes time. While we are talking about a timeframe not a couple hours later, which would be required for her to have the opportunity to kill Asmodean.

At that point, the Dark One knows about Asmodean's betrayal, and has him killed by Lanfear.

The Dark One did not order Asmodean's death, per Jordan.

Or Moridin does, not wanting another (former) Forsaken around Rand.

But how do we even know Ishamael is back at that point? How is that even remotely intuitively obvious by the end of The Fires of Heaven?

It could be explained that Asmodean recognizes Lanfear's soul, regardless of the body, but I doubt that will occur.

Doubt it.

rand
02-16-2010, 06:14 PM
Asmo's reaction to his killer really doesn't help us narrow down the list of suspects a whole lot. All they show is that he:

A)Recognized his killer
B)Was afraid

Many people take the fact that Asmo was afraid to mean that he was afraid of the killer him/herself. However, anyone surprising him with the clear intent of killing him would quite likely scare him.

metaphor
02-16-2010, 07:37 PM
It's Greandal, and it's quite obvious.

Jordan said that Asmodean's killer should be intuitively obvious which removes any intricate theory and restricts the possibilities to the ones we know are aware of Asmodean.
They are 4: Lanfear, Greandal, Rhavin and Demandred.
Rhavin was dead, Lanfear prisoner in the Eelfinn's world(and even if somehow she had manged to get out for a few minutes, which doesn't really make a lot of sense, she would have tried to kill Rand and Aviendah) and Demandred was told about Asmo's death by the DO, and was quite disturbed by the thought of using balefire.
This leaves Greandal, who is the killer.

Sodas
02-16-2010, 09:58 PM
It's Greandal, and it's quite obvious.

Jordan said that Asmodean's killer should be intuitively obvious which removes any intricate theory and restricts the possibilities to the ones we know are aware of Asmodean.
They are 4: Lanfear, Greandal, Rhavin and Demandred.
Rhavin was dead, Lanfear prisoner in the Eelfinn's world(and even if somehow she had manged to get out for a few minutes, which doesn't really make a lot of sense, she would have tried to kill Rand and Aviendah) and Demandred was told about Asmo's death by the DO, and was quite disturbed by the thought of using balefire.
This leaves Greandal, who is the killer.

It takes a pretty intricate theory to place Graendal in Caemlyn that day, particularly because she was supposed to be in Illian with Sammael. Rahvin didn't want Graendal in Caemlyn, so there is no reason for her to have been allowed to be there prior to Rand's defeat of Rahvin.

Not to mention, she is dead*. And Jordan did want to put the answers in a character's Point of View. So Graendal should be classified as eliminated as well.

* Her escaping death is highly doubtful, but that's another discussion

Neilbert
02-17-2010, 01:43 AM
Rhavin was dead, Lanfear prisoner in the Eelfinn's world(and even if somehow she had manged to get out for a few minutes, which doesn't really make a lot of sense,

You're right, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would she return after being released/escaping?


she would have tried to kill Rand and Aviendah)

I covered this earlier, but Lanfear at full strength and with an angreal vs Rand and his angreal was an even match with the advantage going to Rand. Lanfear at reduced strength post finnage and no angreal would be Rand's captive waiting to happen. Trying to kill Rand would have been suicide.

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2010, 03:11 AM
I covered this earlier, but Lanfear at full strength and with an angreal vs Rand and his angreal was an even match with the advantage going to Rand. Lanfear at reduced strength post finnage and no angreal would be Rand's captive waiting to happen. Trying to kill Rand would have been suicide.On the other hand, getting captured by him would open some possibilities after all.
When he has the most beautiful woman who ever existed tied up in his bedroom, what's he gonna do with her?

Neilbert
02-17-2010, 06:59 PM
Well, RJ did have a thing for spanking, and Lanfear has been very naughty...

nameless
02-17-2010, 11:57 PM
On the other hand, getting captured by him would open some possibilities after all.
When he has the most beautiful woman who ever existed tied up in his bedroom, what's he gonna do with her?

No reason to believe she's still the most beautiful woman in the world in her new body. What brief description we've had gave me the impression she looked like a 12 year old now.

Sodas
02-18-2010, 12:18 AM
How old would Moiraine be at this point if time flow matched Mat's well under an hour equaling out to six days? Call it a half hour for math's sake. Every hour is 12 days, every day is 144 days. It's been months since we've seen Moiraine, I'll call it 3 (sure someone will correct me). Assuming a 365 day year in Randland (and a whole bunch of fudgy timeframes but it's really more of a rough idea) Moiraine has been in Finnland for 35 years.

This is great proof that you have it all backwards Neil. Mat was in there for perhaps 30 minutes, which equaled out to 6 days in Randland. So if Moraine were to have been gone for 90 days, that would have translated mathmatically like so:

90/6 = 15

15*30mins = 450mins or 7.5 hours. Not even a full day.

Moraine has actually been gone over 350 days as of KOD. Even then,

350/6 = 58.3

*30 mins = 1749 mins or roughly 29 hours.

So maybe Moraine spent more than a day in Finnland. Not 35 years, rofl.

Neilbert
02-18-2010, 01:13 AM
This is great proof that you have it all backwards Neil.

Yeah, I effed that one up good. I'll own up to it. The math I mean. When I get tired I screw up conversions something awful.

How long did it take you to pick that out? I made that post a good while ago and I'm surprised nobody pointed it out before this.

Neilbert
02-18-2010, 01:15 AM
No reason to believe she's still the most beautiful woman in the world in her new body. What brief description we've had gave me the impression she looked like a 12 year old now.

Still spanking, arguably different reasons?

Though IIRC "impressive boosom" was in her description. Hardly screams 12 year old to me.

Sodas
02-19-2010, 05:01 PM
Yeah, I effed that one up good. I'll own up to it. The math I mean. When I get tired I screw up conversions something awful.

How long did it take you to pick that out? I made that post a good while ago and I'm surprised nobody pointed it out before this.

First, props for owning up. My only excuse for why I didn't see it sooner was the post from the ketchup company distracted me :D I just happened to reread the thread and that post really stood out to me, lol.

Anyway, this is why I say it's impossible for Lanfear, even in a best case scenario, to have the opportunity to even wish to kill Asmodean. If she took the same 30 minute path as Mat, she wouldn't have been able to kill Asmodean until 6 days later.

Nazbaque
02-19-2010, 09:13 PM
I've always thought the time difference was caused by the same thing as the dome of fog that covered Rhuidean before the battle between Rand and Asmodean. I hadn't really considered other options, but now that I have it still makes more sense to me.

JanDSedai
02-19-2010, 11:15 PM
According to the official WOT timeline, Moiraine and Lanfear went though the door ter'angreal on Sept. 21. Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount occured on June 2. So it has been about 250 days.

Rand did not experience six days, either. But he was in the columns ter'angreal. So just a co-incidence that he and Mat got out at the same time?

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2010, 04:45 AM
I think that Mat was hung there right in time for Rand to cut him loose. That would require some precise timing on the part of the Eelfinn, but they are probably capable enough for that.

Nazbaque
02-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Mat was hanged on the Tree of Life. Rand could have revived him if he had been there for weeks.

Neilbert
02-20-2010, 11:35 PM
The tree of life is a legend twisted from the chora trees of the Age of Legend.

Nazbaque
02-20-2010, 11:40 PM
Yeeees I know. What is your point?

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2010, 03:32 AM
Yeeees I know. What is your point?The point is that the tree of life does not actually help you stay alive if you're hanged from it.
Apart from that, though, you had a good point. :p

Nazbaque
02-21-2010, 05:05 AM
Yes well back to serious mode. I don't exactly believe Avendesora could keep Mat alive. I'm just pointing out that it might not be wise to build on the assumption that it couldn't.

The real point I'm trying to make in this thread is that the time difference might affect the whole city instead of being the side effect of the ter'angreal that the visitors use. The dome of fog might be a result of this and if so suggests that whatever caused the time difference was destroyed when Rand fought Asmodean. At the moment I can't proove this belief to be true, but if Aviendha's visit turns out to take a single day instead of a whole week...

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2010, 05:36 AM
Considering that Rand and what's-his-name (the Shaido who was tearing out his own eyes) moved at slightly different rates through the ter'angreal, I would say that it was a more localised effect than you're assuming.

Nazbaque
02-21-2010, 06:20 AM
Muradin is his name IIRC. I believe there are differences to how much time each person spends in the ter'angreal, but I think it is because they aren't shown exactly the same things or need more time to deal with the last thing they saw before they take the next step.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2010, 06:25 AM
Yes, but whatever it is, it does give differing times spend in the place, which is not the effect of the town (or the enchantment around it) itself.

I'm wondering: if Mat hadn't gone to meet the foxes, then how would he have spend all those days waiting for Rand?

Nazbaque
02-21-2010, 07:42 AM
Alright I didn't phrase that in a way that couldn't be misunderstood. My bad. I meant that the time spent in the ter'angreal depends on what the person sees and how long it takes for him to deal with it, but there isn't an actual time shift involved in its use. The reason some men spent longer in there was that what they saw took longer to watch.

The reason one man spends five minutes in a bathroom and another ten is that the first just had to pee while the second took a dump. It wasn't caused by a time machine hidden in the doorframe. The reason they seemed to spend five days to watch a movie in the theater where they also used the bathroom mentioned earlier is that the theater's front door has a time machine.

Sodas
02-21-2010, 10:21 PM
That question has been asked before,



Q: How long was Mat hanging from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean?
RJ: Long enough.
Q: Long enough for what?
RJ: Long enough to be ALMOST dead.

Nazbaque
02-22-2010, 12:13 AM
Ha! So he was there long enough to be almost dead. How long did this take exactly? How long could he have hung (or is it "hanged"?) there before he moved from almost to completely dead? An Aes Sedai answer that one.

nameless
02-22-2010, 02:41 AM
Well, the brain can go without oxygen for 4-6 minutes before it starts to die. I think the record for someone being resuscitated is something like 10 minutes, not counting the crazy mystic types that can hypnotize themselves into a trance and go without air for hours.

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2010, 04:19 AM
While Mat may be pretty good at the crazy part (though Rand gives him a run for his money there), I don't think he qualifies for "mystic type".

I still think that the *finn timed it so that Rand would just manage to save Mat.

Nazbaque
02-22-2010, 07:33 AM
Or two ta'veren just made something unlikely happen.

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2010, 09:05 AM
Possible, but when the *finns are involved, I think it is safer to attribute it to their actions.
After all, they really had nothing to gain from actually killing Mat. Doing what they did was a fine practical joke, but killing him would have given the DO a victory, which would be rather bad for those (like the *finns) who do not serve the Shadow.

alleluia_cone
02-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Beyond the multitude of problems associated with this theory, I would just like to right one misconception that is continually bandied about in arguing that Lanfear killed Asmodean. Unfailingly, it seems, her motivation for the killing is brought up as a big point in Lanfear's favor as to why she is the killer. But given that the author continually stated that it was a crime of opportunity and not premeditated in any fashion, should the focus not be on the motivation to be in Caemlyn, if anything at all? That seems infinitely more relevant than whether Lanfear had great urgency to kill Asmodean or not. For reasons not entirely clear to me, the whole discussion about who was motivated to kill Asmodean rubs me raw since it is so endlessly fretted over and yet so seemingly unimportant.

Terez
03-01-2010, 12:23 AM
For reasons not entirely clear to me, the whole discussion about who was motivated to kill Asmodean rubs me raw since it is so endlessly fretted over and yet so seemingly unimportant.
You should join us, in the apathy faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=61). Those of us that do argue Asmodean do it rarely, and without much real interest. And our reasons are clear enough, same as yours (despite your apparent confusion). There are more interesting and plot-relevant things to talk about.

Sodas
03-05-2010, 03:27 AM
Beyond the multitude of problems associated with this theory, I would just like to right one misconception that is continually bandied about in arguing that Lanfear killed Asmodean. Unfailingly, it seems, her motivation for the killing is brought up as a big point in Lanfear's favor as to why she is the killer. But given that the author continually stated that it was a crime of opportunity and not premeditated in any fashion, should the focus not be on the motivation to be in Caemlyn, if anything at all? That seems infinitely more relevant than whether Lanfear had great urgency to kill Asmodean or not. For reasons not entirely clear to me, the whole discussion about who was motivated to kill Asmodean rubs me raw since it is so endlessly fretted over and yet so seemingly unimportant.

This too bothered me about Lanfear support. But have no fear, because you are 100 percent correct.

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2010, 03:45 AM
When it comes to killing Asmodean, a better question might be: who does not have a motive?
As far as I can see, that's only Rand, and possibly Mat. It just so happens that Rand is also the only person who has been excluded from the suspect list by RJ. So it would seem as though motive is not a very good indicator for solving this mystery.

alleluia_cone
03-08-2010, 01:45 PM
The funny thing is, if I had a choice, I would make Lanfear the killer just as a personal preference on my part. But the way I see it, without thorough elaboration since I'm sure it has already been endlessly discussed, at this point I would be shocked if it was not Graendel. There are too many points in her favor.

Or at least, is there any serious incongruity with the theory that:

- Graendal was going to meet with Moghedien in Caemlyn. I'm assuming the meeting was part of some elaborate plan to double cross Rahvin, Sammael, and Lanfear. We know for a fact that they were supposed to meet but not where. I think Moghedien's own actions back the view that it was Caemlyn which in turn furthers the rest of my theory.

- When Moghedien didn't show, Graendal stayed to find out what happened and in the process found out that Rahvin had been killed, along with specific knowledge of when and where Lanfear "died" (which she mentioned to Sammael). I find this curious, that she knew exactly the day that Lanfear died and where she died.

- She killed Asmodean when the opportunity presented itself, if for nothing else, than because it was one less rival and the apparent fact that Asmodean had some knowledge of where she was located in Arad Domon.

- Moreover, this seems to be confirmed by the fact that she always readily "assumes" that Asmodean is dead in her conversations with Sammael but curiously is not completely certain when it comes to Moghedien. This seems odd, because if she did not kill Asmodean, there really would be no logical reason why she would differentiate the two.

- Beyond that, I really do see her certainty in telling Sammael that Asmodean is dead, as well as her certainty of this fact during her point-of-view segments, as highly suggestive that she is the culprit.

BooneHomes
04-07-2010, 11:33 AM
We know they can't transmigrate souls, and we know they can't hold soul, so they are not omnipotent.

GonzoTheGreat
04-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfinn. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.Which would seem to blow a rather big hole in the "they retrieved Lanfear" idea. Of course, if you're speculating that Lanfear was killed by the Shadow to reward her for killing the traitor, then that's no problem.

DahLliA
04-08-2010, 05:59 PM
I'm still going with RJ's(probably joking) comment that it should be obvious to the most casual reader. and the fact that since I never thought for a second that Moiraine was dead, I never thought Lanfear died either.

and Lanfear was my first suspect when I read Asmo's death scene the first time.

no evidence. just a gut feeling :p

1Powerslave
08-18-2010, 04:32 PM
Which would seem to blow a rather big hole in the "they retrieved Lanfear" idea. Of course, if you're speculating that Lanfear was killed by the Shadow to reward her for killing the traitor, then that's no problem."We will let you go visit this "friend" of yours, but to ensure that you hold to the bargain of old we need you to take this poision. The antidote is only to be found right here in Finnland. You will have 2 minutes and 53 seconds to visit your friend then you will need to return through the portal we create for the antidote. By doing it thus we do not affect the outside world and hold to the bargain." -- Lanfear's Finnland wishmaster.

GonzoTheGreat
08-19-2010, 04:10 AM
"We will let you go visit this "friend" of yours, but to ensure that you hold to the bargain of old we need you to take this poision. The antidote is only to be found right here in Finnland. You will have 2 minutes and 53 seconds to visit your friend then you will need to return through the portal we create for the antidote. By doing it thus we do not affect the outside world and hold to the bargain." -- Lanfear's Finnland wishmaster.Lanfear pops up in front of Semirhage, says "Heal me, quick", she is obliged, and once she stops screaming (after half an hour, say), she goes in search of Aviendha to kill her. Instead she finds Asmodean, and butchers him.

Still leaves the matter of her death and transmigration unclear, though.

One Armed Gimp
08-19-2010, 06:01 AM
That quote from RJ ("They can not effect the outside world at all") always bugged me.

Pretty sure Mat was hanging from a tree in "the outside world". I do not know how he reconciles this, but.....maybe they tossed him out and got lucky?

GonzoTheGreat
08-19-2010, 06:48 AM
I think there is a quote somewhere saying that they can dodge in and out if they do it really quick. Wouldn't be enough for the Asmodean case, unless they knew precisely where and when he was going to open a random door, of course.

Neilbert
08-19-2010, 11:13 AM
They would have to be to hang Mat from a tree.

Unless they are like.... really good tossers. They can obviously effect the outside world, just not in the way anyone would be thinking if they asked the question "Can the Finns effect the outside world?"

Sodas
08-21-2010, 02:53 AM
That quote from RJ ("They can not effect the outside world at all") always bugged me.

Pretty sure Mat was hanging from a tree in "the outside world". I do not know how he reconciles this, but.....maybe they tossed him out and got lucky?

They can't effect the outside world, as in they can't create a tree to grow in Rhuidean. But they can walk out the Redstone Doorway into Randland if they are requested to. So they can interact with the outside world. Two different things.