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tsorovanmhael
10-31-2009, 03:51 PM
After reading this wonderful book, i am firmly convinced that Callandor will play the ultimate role in closing the Dark One's Prison.

First, Rand destroyed the access key to the Choedan Kal and just prior to that LTT was ranting that it was too powerful and "they" knew it wouldn't work. We know that Callandor was made during the debate of how to close the prison. We are also very aware that when the Hundred Companions went, saidin was tainted, thus turing men mad. Add to this failure the creation of callandor to be used by one male aes sedai and two female aes sedai and it is obvious that Callandor's purpose is to be the ultimate box.

Since the Choedan Kal is gone, there is nothing powerful enough, linked with both halves of the Source to close the Prison. Clearly the Creator placed teh DO were he wanted and since the Prison is part of the WoT, which is turned by the True Source, then a linked male/female with a powerful sa'angreal would be needed to put the proper closing on the DO's prison. Making as many refrences to Callandor's flaw and what it is, i feel was a clear line of thought by the AoL aes sedai that two powerfully linked women to LTT would be all that is needed to close the DO's prison.

Now, of course it should be Rand, but I believe that Avi and Nynaeve will be the one's to link. HE loves one and trusts the other and won't put his pregnant wife in harms way that close to the DO.

And I am not a damn youngling!

"Would you be Nae'blis? Kneel or be knealt!"

Terez
10-31-2009, 03:55 PM
Well, RJ said that if women had been with Lews Therin, then the result would have been saidar tainted as well. So I think there's a bit more to it than that. The theories of the True Power and Fain are each convincing. Obviously, Callandor has a role to play, but I don't think it's quite that simple.

tsorovanmhael
10-31-2009, 03:57 PM
I think that Rand's ishy wound, of course links them, but more importantly is fighting with Fain's wound and when "His blood is spilt on the Rocks" that taint will be losed and Rand will be whole again. That is what Aliva's job will be, to Heal Rand and make him live again. Then, with the glassy sword and his two chicks, he breaks the seals and closes the Prison.

Tercel
10-31-2009, 04:27 PM
After reading this wonderful book, i am firmly convinced that Callandor will play the ultimate role in closing the Dark One's Prison.Yes, the hints about it seemed roughly the size of ten-ton rocks.

The hints I saw:
- Choedan Kal aren't mentioned in the prophesies, and are now both destroyed.
- Part of what went wrong for LTT was the lack of female channelers participating. Both male and female are needed.
- The other part of what went wrong for LTT was touching the OP directly to the DO, which directly caused the taint. The OP should not be used directly against the DO, hence another reason why the CK were not the correct goal.
- It is clear Callandor needs to be used in a link with Rand and two women (presumably Nynaeve and Alivia)
- Cadsuane believes a woman needs to lead that link, but her reasons for believing this don't impress me much.
- Herid Fel's message said "must clear rubble before you can build" which means the remaining seals must be destroyed.
- Herid Fel's message said "belief and order give strength" which implies a non-Power based sealing done through human belief and action.
- Min is going to find out the answer through reading philosophy books and commentaries on the Prophesies.

My own surmises:
- We have been told that the "bore" is a weakness in the Pattern around SG which allows the DO to be sensed through the pattern.
- The DO's desire to destroy the pattern itself and thus escape strongly hints that the pattern itself is his prison.
- The DO shows great anger that he "cannot step outside of time" when talking about not being able to resurrect someone who was BFed. This works well with the idea that Time itself (ie the Pattern) is his prison (see Thomas Covenant series for similar example of where the DO is bound by Time itself).
- So the solution would seem to be to "strengthen" the Pattern itself. It is unclear to me how the Callandor link, the triple Ta'veren, and "belief and order" could be combined to accomplish this.

And I am not a damn youngling!Neither, but it is amusing.

1Powerslave
10-31-2009, 05:26 PM
My own surmises:
- We have been told that the "bore" is a weakness in the Pattern around SG which allows the DO to be sensed through the pattern.
- The DO's desire to destroy the pattern itself and thus escape strongly hints that the pattern itself is his prison.
- The DO shows great anger that he "cannot step outside of time" when talking about not being able to resurrect someone who was BFed. This works well with the idea that Time itself (ie the Pattern) is his prison (see Thomas Covenant series for similar example of where the DO is bound by Time itself).
- So the solution would seem to be to "strengthen" the Pattern itself. It is unclear to me how the Callandor link, the triple Ta'veren, and "belief and order" could be combined to accomplish this.


You should read my theory Healing The Bore: ;)
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2234

The Black Wind
10-31-2009, 06:19 PM
I have a theory brewing about Callandor. One of it's flaws was obviously that it amplified the taint. This has been dealt with. The other "flaw" is much more important in my opinion. The second flaw is that Callandor lacks the buffer that all angreal and Sa'angreal have against drawing too much of the power. I Think this may not be a flaw but in fact the very aspect of callandor that makes it vital to sealing the DO's prison. It's possible that Rand will have to do as LTT once did and draw more of the power than he can possibly handle. With this extra power he might be able to seal the prison. I'm still working on the details but that's why I think Callandor is important.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 07:51 PM
I dont see the True Power being used on the DO's prison. How would his own power seal him off exactly?

Fain I can see, but not the TP. Not without Rand losing.

Tercel
10-31-2009, 07:51 PM
You should read my theory Healing The Bore: ;)
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2234On a general level I agree that the idea of Nynaeve discovering a way to "heal" the Pattern seems generally the right sort of thing. However:
- I don't think it will be the same weave as is used to heal humans. Though she might well be able to extrapolate from what heals humans and heals severing
- It doesn't account for "belief and order give strength"
- It doesn't account well for Ta'veren
- It doesn't account for Padan Fain

In one of the other threads, Padan Fain was mentioned, which reminded me of him... some sort of Lord of the Rings Gollum parallel seems clearly implied. We also know from the Cleansing of the taint that the SL evil and the DO's evil mutually annihilate. What effect would Fain/Gollum falling into the Pit of Doom have? Would the DO and Fain annihilate one another?

My thoughts on Ta'veren are that they seem to empower the Wheel itself to weave as it wills. Verin's story to Matt about being forced to come to him and bring him to Caemlyn shows the Wheel taking pretty direct control of proceedings. So perhaps the purpose of 3 strong Ta'veren at the end will be to empower the Wheel to fairly direct control of events. Or it is the Ta'veren themselves whose minds exercise control of the Pattern around them? Matt seems able to control dice with his will. Rand's Ta'vereness first made bad things only happen in Arad Doman when his mind was full of anger, and then good only happen on Dragonmount with sunlight around him with his mind was full of love. Perhaps the Ta'veren bend the pattern around them with their minds? In which case perhaps they can strengthen and order the pattern with their mind/beliefs similar to Herid Fel's quote.

The other thing I'm a bit confused about is Rand's fate. It seems to me that two quite different fates for Rand have been forshadowed:
1. He is actually killed at SG and Nynaeve resurrects him three days later with a new form of healing.
2. He deliberately fakes his own death at SG but doesn't actually die.
They seem to both have been forshadowed but seem mutually exclusive.

Another thing of interest is the discussion of whether Rand can 'kill' the DO or must merely seal his prison again and again throughout the ages. One of Rand's previous-life memories told him that universes were like flowers with some dying as the DO broke free and others blooming. To me the implication of that is that the Light can wiln for all time within any given universe. It implies some sort of final and complete victory of the Light, the opposite of the DO destroying the pattern. I understand that to mean that the DO can be 'killed' insofar as his presence can be permanently and irrevocably removed from this particular universe. So are we going to see the Final and Complete Victory of the Light in this Age, or simply the normal turning of the Wheel in which the DO is once again bound? Moridin seems right in his logic that if the Wheel keeps turning, eventually the DO will win... unless the light can have an irrevocable victory, something Moridin assumes to be impossible.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't think the sealing of the Dark One's prison will include the use of the One Power, or the True Power.

Jokeslayer
10-31-2009, 08:19 PM
So are we going to see the Final and Complete Victory of the Light in this Age, or simply the normal turning of the Wheel in which the DO is once again bound? Moridin seems right in his logic that if the Wheel keeps turning, eventually the DO will win... unless the light can have an irrevocable victory, something Moridin assumes to be impossible.

Thinking about this, and the mutual destruction of Taint and SL, and the DO and Fain, and the fact that Fain is something new to this age (although Age isn't synonymous with turning, so it's possible Fain was around in the last third age) (see interview quote below), has me liking the idea that Fain will somehow destroy the DO (well, maybe liking is the wrong word, but agreeing with certainly).

Has Rand mentioned the idea of destroying the DO before TGS? I don't think he has but I'm not sure.

Date: 2002-12-09 | Location: Dragonmount/Wotmania
Type: Online | Questioner: Unknown
Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
A: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Terez
10-31-2009, 08:41 PM
Well, Rand thought he had killed the Dark One before he knew that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael.

But you're right, I did get the impression from this book that RJ might have been planning on actually having Rand do away with the Dark One permanently. There are a few clues to it - one is Rand's newfound determination to do exactly that. Another is Moridin's point about how victory for Rand only leads to another battle, while victory for the Dark One means the end of everything, and this is what assures the Dark One's eventual victory in his mind.

The only thing we've had before to argue against this is what RJ said about there not being anything special about this age:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001 (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Macron_Inteview_Memorial_Weekend_2001)

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his age that makes it special?



RJ: No… every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

But then, there is this:

CNN Chat - 12 December, 2000 (http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/)

Chat moderator: How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?



Robert Jordan: The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.
And another version of the same:


DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910)

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?

Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop..that it is really quite immense.

Also, it's been suggested that Rand's thought in Crossroads about the Creator was influenced by Moridin, as Rand didn't seem to think it fit either him or Lews Therin, and Moridin was, after all, a philosopher with a bad attitude.

Wunderwaffe
10-31-2009, 09:30 PM
Ishamael is a liar.

Terez
10-31-2009, 09:34 PM
Doesn't matter - what he says is logical, unless you assume that the Wheel has somehow guaranteed victory. Min seems to make it clear to Corele that the very idea is ridiculous.

the silent speaker
10-31-2009, 09:48 PM
- It is clear Callandor needs to be used in a link with Rand and two women (presumably Nynaeve and Alivia)
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can hold that dreadful blade?
It is my theory that this line is an answer followed by the question. That is, "What hand can hold [Callandor]?" is followed by "Who[ever] draws it out"; in other words, only Narishma can wield it now. This doesn't affect the two wopmen part of the wielding, but the point is, not Rand.

greatwolf
11-01-2009, 04:03 AM
I don't think the sealing of the Dark One's prison will include the use of the One Power, or the True Power.

:confused:

Care to be specific?

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 10:38 AM
:confused:

Care to be specific?

Unfortunately, atm, it's a very abstract idea with little supporting evidence. Still working out the details. I may find out that it's a totally ridiculous idea. But imo, it's worth pursuing. I just don't think they will use the OP to reseal the Bore. I think that in doing so, they would doom the world to a second Breaking.

Basically, I'll have to get back to you on that.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Unfortunately, atm, it's a very abstract idea with little supporting evidence. Still working out the details. I may find out that it's a totally ridiculous idea. But imo, it's worth pursuing. I just don't think they will use the OP to reseal the Bore. I think that in doing so, they would doom the world to a second Breaking.

Basically, I'll have to get back to you on that.
A point to consider: Seed Singing didn't require the OP to work. There are epigrams that suggest Rand will sing the land back to health.

One Armed Gimp
11-01-2009, 12:21 PM
I have never thought that Rand would actually seal (or heal) the DO's prison. Wouldn't the DO's prison have to return to its original state? If that is the case, I would think the Creator would need to be involved, which I think is supported by the voice in EotW.

tsorovanmhael
11-01-2009, 01:27 PM
I actually think that the amount of the One Power that can be used through Callandor with both linked females is 'just enough' of the right combination of the True Source to "Heal" the DO's prison and right the Pattern itself.

For some odd reason, that just sounds right, as if the blast that broke the prison required only so much force, the Pattern is needing only that much to close it.

One Armed Gimp
11-01-2009, 07:32 PM
So how is this:

The three shall become one. The three people channel are able to create one thread with just the right amount of power that the Creator then weaves into the pattern, repairing the damage to the DO's prison.

Just a shot out to left field.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 10:00 PM
So how is this:

The three shall become one. The three people channel are able to create one thread with just the right amount of power that the Creator then weaves into the pattern, repairing the damage to the DO's prison.

Just a shot out to left field.
Gonna have to be a little more precise.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

Chances are regardless of circumstances the Creator will not get invovled.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:30 PM
RJ has confirmed in interview that the Creator does indeed not interfere, which means that the voice doesn't count as interference, if it was indeed the Creator (and, after all, the voice was saying that it would not interfere).

Yuri33
11-02-2009, 12:19 AM
We know that Callandor was made during the debate of how to close the prison.

I don't think anyone in the thread corrected this rather critical point.

Callandor was made after after LTT and the Hundred Companions sealed the Bore and when mad from tainted Saidin. It was created not to seal the bore, but purely due to Foretellings related to the Dragon Reborn. The people who made it had no idea how Rand was to use it:

There was no need to knock at the door he sought. Not one of the great gilded doors to an ingathering hall, but a door plain and unobtrusive. He slipped in quietly, though, and was glad he had. Half a dozen Aes Sedai stood around the long table, arguing, apparently not noticing when the building trembled. They were all women.
He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?"What good is your Foretelling," Oselle was almost shouting, "if you cannot tell us when?" Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. "The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!"
Dark eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. "I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell."
"Peace, sisters." Solinda was the calmest of them all, her old-fashioned streith gown only a pale blue mist. The sun-red hair falling to her waist was nearly the color of his own. His greatfather had served her as a young man, but she looked younger than he; she was Aes Sedai. "The time for contention among ourselves is past. Jaric and Haindar will both be here by tomorrow."
"Which means we cannot afford mistakes, Solinda."
"We must know..."
"Is there any chance of... ?"

...

"Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?"
"We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and... And we have no choice."
"Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more."

Callandor was made well after the debate was made moot, and for completely unrelated reasons. I don't know if Callandor will be used to seal the Bore, but it certainly wasn't designed to do so, and I don't believe it's flaw relates to some hidden functionality (such as use with the TP), but simply reflects the hastiness of it's creation.

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:55 AM
It wasn't created then - I think RJ confirmed that it was made during the War of Power. Then Deindre had a Foretelling about it after that.

4Alethinos
11-02-2009, 01:30 AM
Some thoughts of my own. First, I have read the theory by 1Ps. It is very interesting and I have added some thoughts of my own here.

First, I must discuss Callandor. It is more than significant that it is totally resistant to the True Power used by Isamael/Moridin. This was demonstrated by Rand's use of this device in his battle in the Stone of Tear. IMO, this will be its only use at Shayol Ghul. In this, I think that I agree with iPS. It will not be a problem for amplifying the Taint simply because the Taint is no more, which, BTW, was the only real purpose that the Wheel had for the construction of the CK. The two women in a link with Rand will provide the necessary buffering.

It may have some use in driving the DO back on his heels somewhat. That is the most that it could possibly do.

BTW, one more point about the two women for the use of Callandor. I think that one of them must be Moiraine. Why else has Min said that Rand cannot win without her? Nynaeve is another likely candidate, but we will RAFO.

I believe that 1PS and others have hit upon the real use for all three of our Ta'veren to be alive and present. The Wheel is goihg to use the three of them to heal the Bore in the Pattern and reestablish the Moat around the DO's prison.

As a consequence, I hold that wunderwaffe is completely correct in saying that no use of the OP or any other "power" will be used to heal the Bore. It will be used to get there, but that is all.

One issue that I have is that I strongly suspect that it will be Rand's soul in Moridin's comparatively nifty body that will be there at the healing. It is the soul that is Ta'veren and not the body, after all.

"So, what do you think of that for Hope and Change, eh?" Just a touch of Canuck for SBX. hehe

Jonai
11-02-2009, 04:32 AM
Callandor was created during the War of Power and was used during that time. The flaw(s) were simply an error in the manufacturing process. At that time, before the infrastructure was completely destroyed, angreal and sa'angreal were being mass produced. I don't think Rand can destroy the Dark One. Moridin sneers at him when he mentions it. Ishamael is a liar, but don't you think other incarnations of the Dragon have tried it before? Besides that, how can you destroy the antithesis of the creator? For all intents and purposes, it sounds like the total pool of saidar + saidin is equal to the True Power. With the Choedan Kal destroyed...It just doesn't seem possible.

There's also something else, I believe with tGH and Portal Stones...it said that the DO, if he is freed in this world, he is freed in all worlds, mirror worlds at least. Doesn't that negate any sort of "total victory for the Light in this reality"?

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:36 AM
If it is possible to destroy the Dark One, I think it would have to be via Fain, rather than a massive Power attack, since he is the embodiment of the evil of Shadar Logoth (same principle as the Cleansing). Even still it's hard to see how it would be pulled off, but Fain has been tagged as a Gollum for some time now.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 06:38 AM
I believe that 1PS and others have hit upon the real use for all three of our Ta'veren to be alive and present. The Wheel is goihg to use the three of them to heal the Bore in the Pattern and reestablish the Moat around the DO's prison.

So basically the pattern weaves itself around those three as a focal point and "heals" the DO's prison? That could also meet the 3 become 1 thing. 3 focal points become 1. I have never been a huge fan of the Rand/LTT/Moridin become one thing.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 10:57 AM
I've been saying for years that the way to finally defeat the DO is to destroy the cyclic nature of time. While it's still rather unlikely, I think TGS shed some new light on it.

Lews Therin/Rand wants another chance.
Moridin/DO wants another chance.

Rand thinks he can kill the DO, Moridin thinks he's stupid for thinking he can.

In some ways, this book reflected the debates we've been having here for years. ;)

One other key point that you guys have missed so far, and that I'll eventually develop into a theory, is Tel'aran'rhiod. There's a lot more to it, and it will be critical for Rand to finally seal the Bore and/or defeat the Dark One. Just as a teaser, Rand needs Mat to defend him in the Real World, and Perrin to defend him in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 11:40 AM
Just as a teaser, Rand needs Mat to defend him in the Real World, and Perrin to defend him in Tel'aran'rhiod.

And the sealing needs to be done at the "Eye of the World" which is some sort of representation of TAR in the "real" world?

Although the same could be accomplished with the Horn.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 11:53 AM
And the sealing needs to be done at the "Eye of the World" which is some sort of representation of TAR in the "real" world?

Although the same could be accomplished with the Horn.
No, not with the Horn. I'm running with the idea that Tel'aran'rhiod isn't just a resting place and just a reflection of the RW, but that the Prison needs to be sealed there as well.

Unless you're suggesting that the Horn creates a bubble of TAR in the RW, in which case you may be right.

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 12:11 PM
No, not with the Horn. I'm running with the idea that Tel'aran'rhiod isn't just a resting place and just a reflection of the RW, but that the Prison needs to be sealed there as well.

Unless you're suggesting that the Horn creates a bubble of TAR in the RW, in which case you may be right.

Well, the Eye of the World could have been a "bubble" of TAR. Its location was determined by "Need". And even after the Nym died, and the oak and surrounding area was tree-sung, ensuring that the "bubble" remained free of destruction/desecration (at least for a while), and then the Eye moved again. Not sure if the point of the tree-singing was to have it stay around for a while for future use, or just a nice happy touch, regarding a "memorial" for the last Nym.

I think it could probably re-appear for Rand if he had sufficient need.

That is, if there was any reason to revisit this plot device.

I think the Horn simply brings TAR into some sort of alignment with the real world, allowing the Heroes to interact with the real world. Sort of like how female traveling works :) But I always thought of the Eye as a "bubble". It could have been created in a similar way to vacuoles, except that it existed for a long, long time, and was a pocket of TAR.

X.X.
11-04-2009, 09:27 AM
What if it's Callandor's no buffer flaw that turns out to be the key? This is purely speculation, of course. Take this scenario:

While holding Callandor and linked with Alivia and Nynaeve (with maybe Alivia melding the flows), they accomplish Something vs the Dark One. And due to the sword's flaw, another counter stroke by the Dark One, whatever it may be, ends up being completely absorbed by the person holding Callandor: Rand. Thus killing him, but saving the world in the process. Has sort of a Christ like feel to it as well as fulfilling that viewing about Alivia.

In other words, Callandor is this metaphysical surge protector. And I think this is where the other plans went wrong, as some have pointed out. The Choedan Kal wouldn't have worked because it's two separate sa'angreal made for a male and female repsectively. So, lots of power, but still direct OP connection to doing the dirty work. But, by linking ahead of time and using a sa'angreal as a conduit, they can avoid the direct OP > DO link and use Callandor and its wielder to prevent another counter stroke.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 09:39 AM
What if it's Callandor's no buffer flaw that turns out to be the key? This is purely speculation, of course. Take this scenario:

While holding Callandor and linked with Alivia and Nynaeve (with maybe Alivia melding the flows), they accomplish Something vs the Dark One. And due to the sword's flaw, another counter stroke by the Dark One, whatever it may be, ends up being completely absorbed by the person holding Callandor: Rand. Thus killing him, but saving the world in the process. Has sort of a Christ like feel to it as well as fulfilling that viewing about Alivia.

In other words, Callandor is this metaphysical surge protector. And I think this is where the other plans went wrong, as some have pointed out. The Choedan Kal wouldn't have worked because it's two separate sa'angreal made for a male and female repsectively. So, lots of power, but still direct OP connection to doing the dirty work. But, by linking ahead of time and using a sa'angreal as a conduit, they can avoid the direct OP > DO link and use Callandor and its wielder to prevent another counter stroke.

I dig.

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 09:44 AM
yeah, that's something that's been rattling around my noggin' as well. Not having that buffer there might be an asset in the end, not a flaw.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 10:40 AM
My thoughts on Ta'veren are that they seem to empower the Wheel itself to weave as it wills. Verin's story to Matt about being forced to come to him and bring him to Caemlyn shows the Wheel taking pretty direct control of proceedings. So perhaps the purpose of 3 strong Ta'veren at the end will be to empower the Wheel to fairly direct control of events. Or it is the Ta'veren themselves whose minds exercise control of the Pattern around them? Matt seems able to control dice with his will. Rand's Ta'vereness first made bad things only happen in Arad Doman when his mind was full of anger, and then good only happen on Dragonmount with sunlight around him with his mind was full of love. Perhaps the Ta'veren bend the pattern around them with their minds? In which case perhaps they can strengthen and order the pattern with their mind/beliefs similar to Herid Fel's quote.




There's a quote from Moiraine way back at the end of EotW where she says that having three ta'veren at the Eye could correct the pattern enough to reseal the Dark One's prison. I lent my copy of EotW to my girlfriend, so I don't know the exact wording, but that struck me on my last re-reading. And this was before they had all reached full flow of their ta'veren-ism. Since I read that I've been under the impression that the seals need to be broken with all three of them present to fix the bore.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 10:44 AM
I dig.

I also like it. Write it up as a formal theory and submit on the main site. Its got good potential.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 10:56 AM
I like the theory, XX. I think it has a lot of potential. I think the only problem with it is that Lews Therin gave Rand the hint about "touching" the Dark One and how that's what caused the Taint. I got the impression that Rand will deliberately avoid that, so that kind of counterstroke won't be possible.

That said, I think Rand might end up being the one touching the DO to make the seal. Maybe I'm still too absorbed in Malazan magic...

X.X.
11-04-2009, 11:18 AM
I like the theory, XX. I think it has a lot of potential. I think the only problem with it is that Lews Therin gave Rand the hint about "touching" the Dark One and how that's what caused the Taint. I got the impression that Rand will deliberately avoid that, so that kind of counterstroke won't be possible.

That said, I think Rand might end up being the one touching the DO to make the seal. Maybe I'm still too absorbed in Malazan magic...

Yes, the "touching" is what caused the taint as I understand it. Direct contact between the Power coming from him (and maybe also the companions) and the DO. What I'm thinking is that perhaps Callandor would instead absorb any backlash caused from "touching" the DO again, thus allowing this Something to be done but without causing another Breakingesque counter stroke.

Trutino
11-04-2009, 02:40 PM
There's a quote from Moiraine way back at the end of EotW where she says that having three ta'veren at the Eye could correct the pattern enough to reseal the Dark One's prison. I lent my copy of EotW to my girlfriend, so I don't know the exact wording, but that struck me on my last re-reading. And this was before they had all reached full flow of their ta'veren-ism. Since I read that I've been under the impression that the seals need to be broken with all three of them present to fix the bore.

On pg 649 tEotW, Moiraine suggests that having three of them there at the Eye might encourage the pattern to weave around the three of them and defeat the shadow. "Let the pattern be woven around you there, and you may save the world from shadow."

She seems to be referring to the specific journey that leads to the climax of tEotW, but it could be applicable later on, too.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 03:18 PM
Yes, the "touching" is what caused the taint as I understand it. Direct contact between the Power coming from him (and maybe also the companions) and the DO. What I'm thinking is that perhaps Callandor would instead absorb any backlash caused from "touching" the DO again, thus allowing this Something to be done but without causing another Breakingesque counter stroke.
Putting it quotes somehow makes it dirty.

"I'm going to use my 'sword' to absorb your 'backlash' when I 'touch' you. Right girls?"

Ahem, as to the theory, what would Callandor do with said backlash? Maybe it absorbs the backlash, then Rand stabs Padan Fain and annihilates both in one stroke.

X.X.
11-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Putting it quotes somehow makes it dirty.

"I'm going to use my 'sword' to absorb your 'backlash' when I 'touch' you. Right girls?"

Ahem, as to the theory, what would Callandor do with said backlash? Maybe it absorbs the backlash, then Rand stabs Padan Fain and annihilates both in one stroke.


Hah, yes. Pretty much just the combination of touch and sword is enough to spawn several alternate worlds of inuendo.

As for what it does, it'd work just like a surge protector would when encountering a nasty spike: it'd burn itself out and become junk yet protect the appliances that were plugged into it.

1Powerslave
11-04-2009, 05:37 PM
On a general level I agree that the idea of Nynaeve discovering a way to "heal" the Pattern seems generally the right sort of thing. However:
- I don't think it will be the same weave as is used to heal humans. Though she might well be able to extrapolate from what heals humans and heals severing
- It doesn't account for "belief and order give strength"
- It doesn't account well for Ta'veren
- It doesn't account for Padan Fain

I created a new thread to try to answer these questions.
Healing the Bore (post tGS version 1b):
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71211#post71211

Regarding the original topic, I think it is interesting reading that quote from Rand's forefather's eyes again at this point in the story. A foretelling that prompted their actions regarding Callandor that I highly doubt has been entirely fulfilled. There were many other ways to name the Dragon true (herons for one).

Aviendha
I don't recall much about the scenes that Rand had in the columns in Rhuidean, nor do I recall if it was his exact forefathers' eyes he saw through. But, regardless, maybe Aviendha will see something useful about Callandar and the foretelling about it. Could Aviendha be a scion of the sun-red haired Solinda from the group of ancient Aes Sedai discussing the foretelling of Callandor?

Something SDog said:
I just wanted to adress what SDog proposed about going over to linear time. I think it's a great end for the saga, fits very nicely thematically. But, doesn't this mean that Rand needs to break the Wheel of Time? And if he does, wont that mean that he has also broken the Dark One's prison? Of course, that wont be a problem if he also slays the Dark One.

It might be that the Wheel of Time is just a huge yoke on the people in the universe. That doom them to repeat the same mistakes etc. And that the Wheel and the Pattern, governs ONLY destiny, not the actual earth that they are standing on, nor inanimate objects. Then I can see this idea of transition to linear time going a bit more smoothly than I previously imagined.

Tree singing
This just instinctively strikes me as something that can be done after the Dark One is shut away, not as a means to shut him away. Making plants grow, even extended with much power, doesn't strike me as holding its own against destructive forces. It's too easy to destroy. When rebuilding the world however I think this will come into play. Malkier will be ressurected I think. And Rand will scour away the Blight from it as a favor to Lan, and then singing may commense.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 05:50 PM
Something SDog said:
I just wanted to adress what SDog proposed about going over to linear time. I think it's a great end for the saga, fits very nicely thematically. But, doesn't this mean that Rand needs to break the Wheel of Time? And if he does, wont that mean that he has also broken the Dark One's prison? Of course, that wont be a problem if he also slays the Dark One.

It might be that the Wheel of Time is just a huge yoke on the people in the universe. That doom them to repeat the same mistakes etc. And that the Wheel and the Pattern, governs ONLY destiny, not the actual earth that they are standing on, nor inanimate objects. Then I can see this idea of transition to linear time going a bit more smoothly than I previously imagined.

Thanks for the ref. I'm not sure that the Wheel is the prison, as much as the Pattern is the prison. Even the DO cannot step outside of time, but also he is imprisoned outside of time for all of Creation. I'm not sure how to reconcile the two.

I've never liked the idea that everything keeps repeating, but now Rand has forced us to make peace with it. That said, he also opened up the possibility that he would "do it right" this time. Does that mean rebuilding the prison, or defeating the Dark One forever and letting humans battle their own evils?


Tree singing
This just instinctively strikes me as something that can be done after the Dark One is shut away, not as a means to shut him away. Making plants grow, even extended with much power, doesn't strike me as holding its own against destructive forces. It's too easy to destroy. When rebuilding the world however I think this will come into play. Malkier will be ressurected I think. And Rand will scour away the Blight from it as a favor to Lan, and then singing may commense.
My very first Theoryland theory was that Rand would somehow defeat the Dark One with nonviolence. It should work about as well as Treesinging.

I don't know...I suppose if Rand led the entire population of Randland in the Song, they could remake the Dark One's prison by manipulating the Pattern. But one giant song at the end of the book seems a little...corny. ;)

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 09:50 PM
I don't know...I suppose if Rand led the entire population of Randland in the Song, they could remake the Dark One's prison by manipulating the Pattern. But one giant song at the end of the book seems a little...corny. ;)
Hey, it worked for The Dark Crystal, kinda...

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 06:47 PM
Who was it that had the theory that whatever Rand does to seal/heal the bore would end with time becoming linear? Does anyone feel that Moridin/Ishy's thoughts on the matter might be foreshadowing?
(Just a few thoughts that struck me when reading. Not necessarily sure I believe it, but it is an interesting idea if RJ hasn't said "NO!" to it.)

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Who was it that had the theory that whatever Rand does to seal/heal the bore would end with time becoming linear? Does anyone feel that Moridin/Ishy's thoughts on the matter might be foreshadowing?
(Just a few thoughts that struck me when reading. Not necessarily sure I believe it, but it is an interesting idea if RJ hasn't said "NO!" to it.)
I don't know if I originated the theory, but I've been throwing it out there for years.

RJ never specifically squashed it, but he did make a lot of references to how this Age isn't necessarily special. I believe he also said that the final word in the final book would be "turns." That kind of implies the Wheel is still going. But hey, maybe it's rolling along instead of spinning in one place. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 04:05 AM
It wasn't spinning in one place anyway. RJ has said that it was more like a spiral.

Terez
11-06-2009, 04:07 AM
I believe he also said that the final word in the final book would be "turns."
Pretty sure he said it would be 'world'.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 10:32 AM
Pretty sure he said it would be 'world'.
Do you remember when he was asked that? For some reason I thought it might be the Budapest recordings, but I'm not sure.

I've been trying to find it in the Interview DB, but had no luck.

I did find again the quote where RJ specifically said there is nothing special about this age. "The Wheel is endless."