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Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 10:58 PM
Since we are fan freaks, and we enjoy all that is speculation as it pertains to the Wheel of Time, I thought I'd pass this on from a report in Chicago and something Brandon said at a signing today in Vegas. Here is the quote:

"There is a very small detail in books 4-6, not sure which one that will end up playing a huge role in Towers of Midnight (might end up being in amol, but pretty sure he said ToM). This is on a scale (~example from Mistborn of a small detail~), with how that was such a minor detail touched on in book one, and ended up being the key detail that saved the day in the end. That kind of small detail."

So, go nuts with your speculation folks."

And here is what he said in Vegas when talking about Towers of Midnight:

"...including one thing is secretly hidden in the books for books and books and books, and I haven't been able to find a hint that any of the fan communities have even gotten a whiff it, which is awesome, because they get a whiff of almost everything. And it is really going to be a shocker when it happens, but it is going to be one of those shockers that people are going to slap their foreheads, why haven't we been talking about this for twelve years..."

So - while I find it hard to believe that none of us have found it, or discussed it even in our geekiest "out in left field" craziness, like Mat being the Dark One's Pawn, it sounds like something fun to be on the lookout for over the next year.

Seems to me almost insulting...if we don't or haven't found it. :)

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:33 PM
So, Min's [Edited] the key to the Last Battle?

I guarantee we can find it if we know its there. We'll figure it out, Jefe.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 11:34 PM
Moghedien did something to Birgitte, in creating her, like a ticking time bomb. Birgitte, unknown to herself, is Moghedien's creature (or the Dark One's) and Moghedien will use her (or Moridin) will use her in some way that will shock and surprise us.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:37 PM
Moghedien did something to Birgitte, in creating her, like a ticking time bomb. Birgitte, unknown to herself, is Moghedien's creature (or the Dark One's) and Moghedien will use her (or Moridin) will use her in some way that will shock and surprise us.


My guess is something to do with Leilwin Shipless (or whatever her name is). She was introduced in Book 4 afterall.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:38 PM
I'm more of a backwards thinker and with that in mind I posit this: what haven't we discussed from books 4-6? Do I sense an elder-level chapter-by-chapter book review?

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:39 PM
I'm more of a backwards thinker and with that in mind I posit this: what haven't we discussed from books 4-6? Do I sense an elder-level chapter-by-chapter book review?

We might as well do it on this forum though. There's no way we'd keep it up on the Scholars Board.

There's got to be something. Something that seems like nothing though. Something completely innocent at first glance.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 11:40 PM
Lots of good stuff with small details, Rhuidean, Aiel, T'A'R, Black Tower, Fel, etc.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 11:41 PM
It was something huge...but we've never discussed the fact that Moghedien in essence created Birgitte and what that could mean. Yup, you can hear it already, a theory is forming. :)

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:43 PM
We've got her, Dave, but there's also Perrin in the Two Rivers which means also including Luc/Slayer/Isam, Birgitte & Gaidal (as Tam mentioned, although I don't think she's Shadow-bound), the ter'angreal stash from Rhuidean, Tigraine's journey to the Waste, and well, alot more. Then again, it's quite possibly something we have discussed in the passed that BS just hasn't seen, cause it was years ago.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:46 PM
speaking of stuff that wasn't discussed, I'm surprised no one's brought up Egwene's use of need in t'a'r taking her to a tinker camp, but yeah, that's another topic.

You might have a theory forming Fearless Leader, but if they really wanted to effect things, there would have been plenty of time for Birgitte to have created some chaos long before the last two books. Just letting Elayne fall into the hands of the BA would have been sufficient in the last book. No, I've got a feeling that it's more subtle than that.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:46 PM
Balwer is a DF and will kill Perrin.


EDIT: Nevermind, he was introduced in TDR and didn't meet Perrin till CoS/PoD.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:48 PM
it's books 4 through 6. Black Tower I believe was only LoC. It might be something that leads through there so details there shouldn't be discounted, but it's not something that'd be specific to the BT.

As for the original challenge, was it something small that happened in all three books, or is it a one time event that happened in one of the three books. That's alot of ground to cover for a singular item, event or happening.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:48 PM
speaking of stuff that wasn't discussed, I'm surprised no one's brought up Egwene's use of need in t'a'r taking her to a tinker camp, but yeah, that's another topic.

You might have a theory forming Fearless Leader, but if they really wanted to effect things, there would have been plenty of time for Birgitte to have created some chaos long before the last two books. Just letting Elayne fall into the hands of the BA would have been sufficient in the last book. No, I've got a feeling that it's more subtle than that.

Yeah, I was wondering about that Tinker thing...maybe they have some ter'angrael or something.

ShadowbaneX
10-31-2009, 11:49 PM
I'll go make a thread to keep this seperate.

Speaking of using Need though, didn't Nynaeve and Elayne use Need in T'A'R to find something to fix the weather, but it originally took them to Tar Valon, but they knew that they didn't have access so they added the 'not in Tar Valon' clause? Could that be something? iirc, that topic hasn't been largely discussed.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:54 PM
I'll go make a thread to keep this seperate.

Speaking of using Need though, didn't Nynaeve and Elayne use Need in T'A'R to find something to fix the weather, but it originally took them to Tar Valon, but they knew that they didn't have access so they added the 'not in Tar Valon' clause? Could that be something? iirc, that topic hasn't been largely discussed.

I don't think we ever discussed that to be honest. There's probably another Bowl of the Winds in the ter'angreal storerooms.

Maybe something to do with the WT split (that occurred in all 3 books afterall). Those books are huge...its gonna be tough to figure it out. All 3 are the biggest of the series I think.

Tamyrlin
10-31-2009, 11:54 PM
There might be something there we overlooked.

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:55 PM
There might be something there we overlooked.

Erith is a Darkfriend!!!

Terez
10-31-2009, 11:57 PM
Farstrider, seen in Graendal's lair?

Nynaeve witnessing Moghedien ripping Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod?

Fel, telling Rand he didn't think the Dragon Reborn could make the prison whole again like the Creator made it?

Davian93
10-31-2009, 11:59 PM
Farstrider, seen in Graendal's lair?

Nynaeve witnessing Moghedien ripping Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod?

Fel, telling Rand he didn't think the Dragon Reborn could make the prison whole again like the Creator made it?

We've discussed all of those before. Maybe not so much teh Farstrider one but the other two we've gone over at length.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 12:01 AM
yes, but unless BS is actually a member of TL, he might not have seen any of our threads about it.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:04 AM
We know he will come into play in a bigger way in Towers of Midnight...would the Graendal count as a small detail?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:04 AM
yes, but unless BS is actually a member of TL, he might not have seen any of our threads about it.

I think he might very well have lurked pretty heavily on our site for several months reading stuff...probably on the main board though. We should go through our Main Board theories to eliminate possibilities while we just start listing possible little things from Books 4-6.

Tercel
11-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Slayer comes to mind as a character with a potentially massive role to play who hasn't had much action since books 4-6. Would be interesting to go back and see every detail those books said about him.

Apart from that, let us consider the obvious plotlines of ToM:
1) Perrin and Matt's plotlines are way behind timewise so ToM will be mainly about them.
2) Rand and Egwene's plotlines have gotten way ahead time-wise so we probably won't see them at all.
3) Something is also happening at the Black Tower as alluded to by the complete lack of contact from the sisters that had gone there.

So obvious plot devices:
Matt: Creating 'dragons', Verin's instructions for Matt, Tower of Ghenji, the rescue of Moiraine, Thom's rescue of Moraine, Thom marrying Moiraine, the hidden cipher message in Moraine's letter to Thom playing a crucial role, the possible presence of Slayer within the Tower of Ghenji (as alluded to in books 4-6 by Perrin chasing Slayer to Ghenji and then him disappearing, possibly inside).

Perrin: Meeting Galad and the Whitecloaks, Galad and Morgase meeting, Perrin learning of who Morgase is, Berelain and Galad in love, ... ? What is Perrin's next likely action??

Black Tower: The splitting war between the now-Choosen Taim and his men versus those loyal to Rand and the Aes Sedai bonded to them. Logain's rise to glory and power.

A random thought:
There was reported to be war in Shara much earlier in the series... perhaps we will see the results as Sharan armies march to support Rand... seems unlikely as Rand's plotline shouldn't have much time in ToM.

Also, all the carts of ter'angreal from Rhuidean that Moiraine was taking to the tower are still somewhere presumably.
Similar the Horn of Valere will need retrieving at some point.
Also, Padan Fain is probably doing something somewhere.

So, off the top of my head, the only thing that's really fitting BS's comments is Slayer and book 4-6's indication of his likely presence within the Tower of Ghenji. ...or something about Fain... or the Tinkers and their Song.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:13 AM
A random thought:
There was reported to be war in Shara much earlier in the series... perhaps we will see the results as Sharan armies march to support Rand... seems unlikely as Rand's plotline shouldn't have much time in ToM.


Honestly, I like that one...its completely off the wall and its something we've never really talked about. Shara fell into civil war when news of Rand hit them.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 12:16 AM
I think he might very well have lurked pretty heavily on our site for several months reading stuff...probably on the main board though. We should go through our Main Board theories to eliminate possibilities while we just start listing possible little things from Books 4-6.
as cited at eWot:

LoC,Ch22 - Near the River Erinin, Chel Vanin and Mat find a burned Tinker camp with the people slaughtered. There is a message on a wagon, "Tell the Dragon Reborn."

This is the one mystery I can think of that doesn't get discussed much and what discussion there is devolves into "there's just not enough information."

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:18 AM
Yeah, that's another good one, WH. We've never really talked about it. It MUST mean somthing...only we have no idea what. Maybe it IS Tinker related.

Isabel
11-01-2009, 12:20 AM
Do we want to know that? I mean it was a shock when Verin turned out to be Black Ajah WITH gathering a list of all the black ajah.
If we had known that in advance, than we wouldn't have been that shocked?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:21 AM
Do we want to know that? I mean it was a shock when Verin turned out to be Black Ajah WITH gathering a list of all the black ajah.
If we had known that in advance, than we wouldn't have been that shocked?

Isabel, Meet Theoryland.


Theoryland, Meet Isabel.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:26 AM
It seems like it would have to have something to do with main plots to be a shocker. Verin's 70 year plan was pretty damn shocking.

I like what Tercel marked out, the main plotlines, and then identifying small details as they pertain to those plotlines, like Moiraine's letter to Thom, or something she wrote to Rand...what small detail could there be in it that might be a clue to something bigger? Or, is it a recurring small detail, book after book, that we are ignoring?

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:30 AM
Tinkers. Lots to think about there.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:31 AM
The Gholam was involved in the slaughter?

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 12:32 AM
Honestly, I like that one...its completely off the wall and its something we've never really talked about. Shara fell into civil war when news of Rand hit them.
there's also the prologue in which Demandred mentions that he's got an army that will be marching to war soon (or something similar). If he has managed to get a hold of them and is marching them to war against the forces o' t3h light...

something else of note is that as Perrin chased Slayer to the Tower, Birgitte was there and talked with Perrin...so, we've got Perrin meeting up with Galad who recognizes Morgase. Perrin takes Morgaze back to Caemlyn and meets up with Mat. Also while there they meet Elayne and Birgitte. Perrin & Mat both know her Birgitte and it might well come up a few things about the Tower. It doesn't seem quite right, but could this manage to get Birgitte included in the trip to rescue Moiraine? And while there could Birgitte make a few wishes or ask some questions, especially re: Gaidal?

Isabel
11-01-2009, 12:32 AM
Isabel, Meet Theoryland.


Theoryland, Meet Isabel.

Davian: This is a small change in what RJ normally said and did. There is a big chance if RJ would have written it, that he wouldn't have said that.
Which means we might guess part of the ending, because Brandon gave us a clue, RJ wouldn't have done.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 12:34 AM
Dammit Dave, I need to give rep to someone else first.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 12:38 AM
The Gholam was involved in the slaughter?
I don't think so. I don't think the Gholam had been intriduced yet, but the destruction seemed more Whitecloak or Trolloc in style.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:38 AM
Don't worry about parsing who would or wouldn't have given us the information, and just have fun with it! :)

Isabel
11-01-2009, 12:41 AM
Don't worry about parsing who would or wouldn't have given us the information, and just have fun with it! :)

Well, i am getting a little bit worried, that we will read the ending and think: i knew it.....
And therefor lessening the experience.
I wouldn't have minded discussing thinigs normally about the ending, if it's in the book. But this is purely based on something that Brandon said. Just worries me ;) I would like to read the ending and also be a bit surprised. So far Jordan had been so wonderfull in hiding stuff in plain sight :)

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:41 AM
Davian: This is a small change in what RJ normally said and did. There is a big chance if RJ would have written it, that he wouldn't have said that.
Which means we might guess part of the ending, because Brandon gave us a clue, RJ wouldn't have done.

I'm just teasing.

Yeah, I agree. RJ never ever would have done this. BS is much more interactive with his fans than RJ was...generational difference I think.

I wonder what it could be. THere is some good tinker stuff in those 3 books that we never talk about. For example:

Perrin meets Tinkers again in Two Rivers
Tinker caravan gets butchered with no explanation.


On the Gholam/Tinker issue: IIRC, The tinkers were butchered in LoC while Sammael didn't find the gholam in the stasis box till early CoS.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:45 AM
Could go back to this whole moment?

DEMANDRED. HOW FARES THIS WORLD? He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge. But he had no doubt what the Great Lord wanted to hear.

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS? Demandred's tongue froze. Nae'blis. The one who would stand only a step below the Great Lord, commanding all others. "I wish only to serve you, Great Lord, however I may." Nae'blis.

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE. Demandred screamed as the voice crashed home. Tears of joy rolled down his face. Unmoving, the Myrddraal watched him.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 12:47 AM
Maybe Demandred is really Naeblis and Moridin is just the frontman for the Shadow. Demandred could just be biding his time till the DO tells him to take over.

He's clearly been doing something major off-screen for 7 books now and we have no idea what.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:49 AM
Isa - I loved page 598 precisely because I had been speculating about Verin for over a decade...it never lessened the experience for me. Instead, it heightened it. Just like some people don't care about Asmodean, so the reveal for them will be "eh, oh". Whereas, those of us that have been tearing it apart, I imagine that will be quite the opposite.

Ivhon
11-01-2009, 12:50 AM
I fully expect to read the ending and say "I knew it."

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 12:57 AM
"There is a very small detail in books 4-6, not sure which one that will end up playing a huge role in Towers of Midnight."

"...including one thing is secretly hidden in the books for books and books and books, and I haven't been able to find a hint that any of the fan communities have even gotten a whiff it..."

I almost think we've been going wrong already. It's a minor detail like the earring referenced, or the shape of someone's dress or eyes or something else fairly abstract, and with the emphasis (mine btw), it's something that we've seen more then once.

We've started with a few things that we haven't seen, but is there anything that's on that level, that's come up more then once?

Terez
11-01-2009, 12:59 AM
Davian: This is a small change in what RJ normally said and did. There is a big chance if RJ would have written it, that he wouldn't have said that.
Which means we might guess part of the ending, because Brandon gave us a clue, RJ wouldn't have done.
Forgot the gasp moment already?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 01:03 AM
Forgot the gasp moment already?

Perhaps because it was the most meaningless "gasp" moment ever. Its not as if anyone gave a crap about the Amayor (?) anyway. Other than a lack of new Sea Folk Porcelin, who gave a crap if they all offed themselves.

Tercel
11-01-2009, 01:05 AM
as cited at eWot:

LoC,Ch22 - Near the River Erinin, Chel Vanin and Mat find a burned Tinker camp with the people slaughtered. There is a message on a wagon, "Tell the Dragon Reborn."

This is the one mystery I can think of that doesn't get discussed much and what discussion there is devolves into "there's just not enough information."I like! I think that is extremely possible to be what BS is referring to.

In the context not quoted above, Matt even thinks several rhetorical questions about what the message to the Dragon might have been and how Tinkers in the past had encountered important information, and he thinks it likely the Tinker had died before finishing writing the message. Logically though, it is unlikely the Tinker meant to write any more than what he did: If so we should expect the message to end half-way through a word or at a nonsensical stopping point.

So... Tinkers:
We know they used songs in the AoL to make plants grow. They currently search for a song. Also they have conveyed important messages at various points. eg IIRC they told Rand of a message from Jain Charin that Ishamael intended to blind the eye of the world, and the same message also from Aiel who had gone to fight the DO. Presumably Rand and his AoL memories now knows all the Songs that were used by the followers of the Way of the Leaf.

... but I can't see any connection between all of that and a dying tinker writing "tell the dragon reborn" in his own blood. We know that such a message wouldn't mean anything to Rand.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:12 AM
Perhaps because it was the most meaningless "gasp" moment ever. Its not as if anyone gave a crap about the Amayor (?) anyway. Other than a lack of new Sea Folk Porcelin, who gave a crap if they all offed themselves.
Well, it's not as if anyone figured it out. ;) Also, RJ said we didn't think it was a big deal because we are callous.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 01:26 AM
Speaking of using Need though, didn't Nynaeve and Elayne use Need in T'A'R to find something to fix the weather, but it originally took them to Tar Valon, but they knew that they didn't have access so they added the 'not in Tar Valon' clause? Could that be something? iirc, that topic hasn't been largely discussed.
What the hell, I'll throw my support behind this idea. That always did bug me, we never had enough information to really speculate on it, so every time it came up it was dropped pretty quickly.

Callandor
11-01-2009, 01:42 AM
I've always wondered about that Tinker caravan, but it was really a "huh, weird" instance, and then basically nothing.

Other things I can think of:

The sisters Siuan sent to re-capture Taim. Where the hell are they?

The rest of the Black Ajah that originally left the Tower? (Berylla Naron, Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran are still missing.)

Who killed Sahra Covenry?

I would say that I don't think it has to be something that has been seen repeatedly. I just has to be something hidden for many books, by Brandon's wording.

Plus, isn't this a fun game by Brandon. "Yeah something from books 4-6." Let's see, that only covers from Rand taking the Stone till Dumai's Wells. Not like that covers three of the longest books in the series.

"I buried it in the sand." "Where?" "The Sahara, or maybe the Gobi, or maybe along the Pacific Ocean." Some hint!

If it is something that's been books and books, the Tinkers make damn good candidates.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Isabel
11-01-2009, 01:48 AM
Isa - I loved page 598 precisely because I had been speculating about Verin for over a decade...it never lessened the experience for me. Instead, it heightened it. Just like some people don't care about Asmodean, so the reveal for them will be "eh, oh". Whereas, those of us that have been tearing it apart, I imagine that will be quite the opposite.

Tam: not exactly what i meant, what I am worried about ;)
Oh well ;) Have fun speculating.

Terez: the gasp moment was the consequense of the cleansing. It didnt have anything to do with the ending.

Lironah
11-01-2009, 01:48 AM
Light burn me, I just found something. Might not be the piece in question, but...

LoC p. 183, paperback. Graendal meeting with Ituralde in Arad Doman. You know she wouldn't miss the chance to do something to him.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:50 AM
Terez: the gasp moment was the consequense of the cleansing. It didnt have anything to do with the ending.
If this is going to be in Towers of Midnight, then it won't either.

Terez
11-01-2009, 01:51 AM
Light burn me, I just found something. Might not be the piece in question, but...

LoC p. 183, paperback. Graendal meeting with Ituralde in Arad Doman. You know she wouldn't miss the chance to do something to him.
Yeah, that has been discussed before. But this is only even a possibility if Graendal is by some miracle alive, and it's hard to see how it would have anything to do with the main plotlines in Towers of Midnight (Ghenjei and Black Tower).

greatwolf
11-01-2009, 03:33 AM
"There is a very small detail in books 4-6, not sure which one that will end up playing a huge role in Towers of Midnight (might end up being in amol, but pretty sure he said ToM). This is on a scale (~example from Mistborn of a small detail~), with how that was such a minor detail touched on in book one, and ended up being the key detail that saved the day in the end. That kind of small detail."

Well it seems he gave two search parameters here.
First, its not been covered in WoT discussions. (he's likely giving it away to enhance our enjoyment value - that might be another clue)

Second, it covers books 4-6 apparently. The wording here can easily be twisted, but we'll probably have to keep faith that in this he thought of what to say beforehand and he intended to give that clue away.

Third, it will affect the plotline of ToM in a very significant maaner. There are possibly three towers involved in ToM : The BT, the ToG and the Tower of Ravens.

Lastly, its a small detail.

So BS seems certain we can locate it with these clues. Shouldn't be too difficult too. Five or six years of discussion ought to do it. :)

E: BS's approach seems a bit different from RJ's. He's open without telling you anything. Its not wrong, its just different. And yes, we must accept that RJ is gone and BS is his own man. No less.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 07:38 AM
This could be completly off base but when Mat & Rand used the twisted doorway in Tear to enter the lands of the Finns Moiraine specifically said that the presence of a Ta'veren was not a good idea and two Ta'veren were in serious danger of breaking the connection to the finn land. This was in Book 4.

Now if I'm not mistaken the pit of doom is somewhat removed from the real world, different sky etc. One might even say that the tunnel down to the pit of doom has the same function as the ter'angreal doorway. If you could get the three ta'veren there at the same time like say "three becomes one" might that not have some serious effect on the "tunnel" and remove the Do's ability to affect the world.

Why might it come out in the next book. When I beleive that Mat is over due to rescue Moiraine and she has something to tell Rand that is kind of important. Where has she been hanging out recently? In another dimension. Who better to know about bridges to another world and what can break them.

This could be completly crazy but we will see.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 08:04 AM
not a bad idea Enigma, especially since the doorways also appear in book 5 and they might get a mention in book 6 as well. That fits our basic criteria.

Also, when looking at Towers we probably shouldn't dismiss the White Tower. I know that Midnight implies Black Towers, but the Tower of Ghenji is described as being gleaming Metal. Further, there's also the Seven Tower's of Malkier, and the Towers of Cairhien. Let's not ignore any Towers at this point as we might unintentionally ignore important information.

Jokeslayer
11-01-2009, 08:12 AM
I almost think we've been going wrong already. It's a minor detail like the earring referenced, or the shape of someone's dress or eyes or something else fairly abstract, and with the emphasis (mine btw), it's something that we've seen more then once.

We've started with a few things that we haven't seen, but is there anything that's on that level, that's come up more then once?

I disagree with this. Look at the first quote in the first post, where it says "There is a very small detail in books 4-6, not sure which one". I think it's more likely BS just can't remember exactly where it crops up, and the "books and books and books" part just refers to the books that have passed since whatever it is was written.

So, plotlines that stretch from TSR to LOC might be a good place to start. Like if he remembers it's something the Wise Ones taught Egwene but can't remember when, so it could have been anywhere in those three books.

Anaiya Sedai
11-01-2009, 08:55 AM
A couple of *small* things that came to my mind - don't ask me why, or what they might mean.

Herid Fell's note to Min: I can't remember which book we saw it in first, but it's small, and it keeps being mentioned, not just that Min is using it as bookmark, but also what it said. Maybe there's something there?

Something I saw in someone's signature here on TL, about the 'finn prophecy to Rand "to live you must die".. The 'finn speak the old tongue, which isn't exactly Rand's mothertongue. I like this idea because I noticed the death/Moridin thing on the Horn of Valere and was shot down for it, but what if Rand mistranslated their profecy a little, obviously not knowing about Moridin at the time?

*goes back to her crazy corner to work her shiney little brain* :D

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 09:05 AM
"to live you must become Moridin"? Interesting. Certainly a different way of looking at it.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 09:16 AM
A couple of *small* things that came to my mind - don't ask me why, or what they might mean.

Herid Fell's note to Min: I can't remember which book we saw it in first, but it's small, and it keeps being mentioned, not just that Min is using it as bookmark, but also what it said. Maybe there's something there?

Something I saw in someone's signature here on TL, about the 'finn prophecy to Rand "to live you must die".. The 'finn speak the old tongue, which isn't exactly Rand's mothertongue. I like this idea because I noticed the death/Moridin thing on the Horn of Valere and was shot down for it, but what if Rand mistranslated their profecy a little, obviously not knowing about Moridin at the time?

*goes back to her crazy corner to work her shiney little brain* :D
Here comes my sig. :)
Yeah, a little crazy perhaps. But why not, I like it. Though one thing that might speak against it is that RJ was disgusted when proposed that "death took him" meant that Moridin killed Asmo. Still like my thought.
What I mean to suggest by my sig is that Rand was really told by the Finns that he needed to merge (what the earthquake removed) with Moridin.

Another suggestion to this great brainstorming thread is Moiraine's wishes from the Finn. Yes, I believe she got wishes. They are never discussed. Because 1) most people think she didn't get any wishes. 2) We have no way of knowing what she wished exactly.

But! We can speculate. And Moiraine is a soldier. The reason she stayed behind could be that she used all her wishes to support and help Rand. Such a wish could be a plot provoker in ToM.

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 09:18 AM
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 09:18 AM
That's an interesting point...can't tell if Brandon is being "sneaky" with that comment, or if you consider the doorways...there are details about the doorways that occur in books 4 and 5, maybe he isn't sure when that small detail occurs...

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 09:24 AM
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)
Nice. Add to this, Rand finds out what is happening and Rand finds the song to reverse the effects.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:25 AM
It reads to me as if he simply wasn't sure which of those 3 books it occurred in and he also didn't want to narrow it down. So there must be 1 small clue (akin to the clue in Mistborn) that is out in the open but considered completely innocent.

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 09:26 AM
Possibly!

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 50 - After
And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. -from Choral, Drianaan to Calaanon, The Cycle of the Dragon, Author unknown, the Fourth Age

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 09:28 AM
Could be that Rand's healing of the Land is it. But...all of Rand's affect on the Land...is not exactly small details...and his healing of the Land...wouldn't necessarily be some shocking detail that has been hidden.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 09:32 AM
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 50 - After
And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. -from Choral, Drianaan to Calaanon, The Cycle of the Dragon, Author unknown, the Fourth Age
This prophecy is all but fulfilled now. Justice the sword, is probably the sword Rand has now. Lord of the Morning was what Lews Therin was called IIRC, Rand can now rightfully call himself that.

That the Dragon Reborn is literally one with the land could be a side effect, not intended by the Pattern perhaps, of his being ta'veren. It also strengthen the let the lord of chaos rule theme, and the fisher king victory conditions.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:37 AM
This prophecy is all but fulfilled now. Justice the sword, is probably the sword Rand has now. Lord of the Morning was what Lews Therin was called IIRC, Rand can now rightfully call himself that.

That the Dragon Reborn is literally one with the land could be a side effect, not intended by the Pattern perhaps, of his being ta'veren. It also strengthen the let the lord of chaos rule theme, and the fisher king victory conditions.

I'm kinda annoyed since Rand never outright says its Justice nor is it recognized by the Seanchan. Was that statement released by someone on DM really accurate or are we just hoping. Granted, its hinted in Rand's POV at Falme but never said.

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 09:40 AM
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm kinda annoyed since Rand never outright says its Justice nor is it recognized by the Seanchan. Was that statement released by someone on DM really accurate or are we just hoping. Granted, its hinted in Rand's POV at Falme but never said.
Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't be citing it as near fact if I can't even pinpoint the source. Which is what exactly (other than the Tears from Steel chapter of course)? I can't recall.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:41 AM
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

We've talked extensively about the Fisher King theme here on TL.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 09:47 AM
We've talked extensively about the Fisher King theme here on TL.


Yeah we have.... over and over again....I think its a theory(ies) on the main board isn't it? It was common years ago, we just haven't hashed it up again as much as before.

Ana - I thought the same thing when I read PS's sig

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 11:13 AM
It reads to me as if he simply wasn't sure which of those 3 books it occurred in and he also didn't want to narrow it down. So there must be 1 small clue (akin to the [REDACTED] in Mistborn) that is out in the open but considered completely innocent.

Slightly off topic, but I think perhaps you should censor the "thing" in Mistborn that was crucial to the plot. There are many here who have not read the series and may be tempted to read them now that they've read Brandon's writing in TGS. Therefore, we shouldn't spoil that series, too. After all, Brandon himself didn't give away what it was at the signing in Vegas.

I believe you've referenced the thing in question three or four times this thread. If you could edit it out or change it to something else, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

Trutino
11-01-2009, 11:22 AM
I agree that BS probably couldn't remember which of those three books it was. I checked anyway to see if there were any major things/arcs introduced in and across those books.

First doorway ter'angreal introduced in Tear in book four. From then on we come across another doorway and Rhuidean rings and ancestor thing that Aviendha will be using in ToM.

Jasin Natael is also introduced in book four.

Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim):

Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc.

Maybe there's something there, maybe not!

ETA: It's probably something we've beaten to death but missed one detail on

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 11:22 AM
I looked on the main site, and under 'Fisher King' there are only two quick comments. Neither of which deal with Thom's comment that the Dragon is one with the land. That's what I meant. Sorry if it was unclear. :)

And the confirmation of Rand's sword being Justice was Brandon to Jennifer Liang. He also said that the description of the sword was based on the one Brandon was given from RJ's personal collection. Pic can be seen on his blog. :)

WinespringBrother
11-01-2009, 11:24 AM
We should do a poll on this, though we have a year to go before any answers emerge.

I'm late to the thread, but a couple of comments:

Egeanin appeared first in TGH, not TSR.

Gholam have probably also been around since TGH - Barthanes death fits their MO.

I was surprised Verin was Black Ajah, but not that she was hunting them ;)



As for prediction of small thing, Moghedien was told by either Moridin or Shaidar Haran that she did some small good thing by mistake which saved her bacon. Presumably that was sometime in books 4-6 and I had a theory that she was responsible for Gaidal's disappearance prior to her ripping Birgitte out of TAR. But I like the Tinker thing too. Maybe we can do some kind of timeline to figure out who could have killed the Tinkers and start from there. At least we know shadowspawn weren't gated there.

lurk
11-01-2009, 11:33 AM
A random thought:
There was reported to be war in Shara much earlier in the series... perhaps we will see the results as Sharan armies march to support Rand... seems unlikely as Rand's plotline shouldn't have much time in ToM.

Hmmm, Aviendha just went into the waste, she could meet them and tell them where to go

Might even be the armies that save the day....

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 11:53 AM
Muirenn - what are your thoughts on how it would fit"shocking"? Shocking in the way that it comes about?

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 12:02 PM
Shocking (to the fan groups) in the way that we all sort of glossed over it. We connected the Fisher (playing piece from the sha'rah game) to the beggar vision of Rand, and to the legend of the Fisher King. But didn't take it far enough. (I can't believe we haven't been discussing this for twelve years!)

And very likely the big reveal itself will be shocking. I don't think we'll know that part until we get ToM. But I can imagine the reaction on the part of the characters (including Rand) when they realize that all these effects that they blamed on the Dark One are actually caused by Rand.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 12:24 PM
ETA: It's probably something we've beaten to death but missed one detail on

Another minor detail that would fit this interpretation is the fact that Seed Singing doesn't require channers.

That would tie into the return of tinkers to the books after a lapse of a book or two of no mention of the tinkers other than Aram.

We learned that seed singing in books 4-6 from Charn's(?) POV in the glass columns ter'angreal, but I'd have to look it uo to give a book/chapter reference.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 12:38 PM
There have been a few comments that if things don't start to grow no one will be left alive for the Last Battle. A rediscovery of Seed Singing combined with Rand's hopefully brigher attidude would certainly be useful for the forces of the light.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 12:55 PM
So, Fisher/Rand/Dragon and the Land/Tinker/Song idea, a very good possibility. We haven't been focused on the combination of ideas...and Rand's direct connection was highlighted in this book, alluding to what's possible for ToM as it pertains to Rand.

Muirenn, write it up already. :)

Marie Curie 7
11-01-2009, 01:08 PM
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

This was discussed here by Weird Harold and others just a couple of weeks ago, though. Here's the link to the recent thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2293) that includes discussion of the Fisher King and Rand's ties to the land. The Fisher King stuff comes up around the bottom of p. 2 (post #36 or thereabouts). And TGS only serves to support what I think WH was trying to point out...

The Fisher King discussion does tend to come up from time to time...you would have to look in the archives (yuku) and not just in the theories on the main page to find some of the other threads.

Tamyrlin
11-01-2009, 02:00 PM
Here is the quote off of the Dragonmount forum:

I was at the signing in Roseville, MN last night and asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the dark ones touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Roberet Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the stroy. When people complained that only bad Ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an examples that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

It was pleasant to get such a direct response from Brandon and I would recommend that anyone who can get to a signing should do so. He never said RAFO when I was there, it was just ICSBOCO (I Can't Say Because Of Contractual Obligations)

Note: This is also posted in the forsaken thread but a moderator suggested cross posting it here as well due to the fact it has a firm author response.
Of course this suggests...that the small detail and shocker is not in fact tied to Rand and the Land...in the sense that Brandon specified in this instance...and I kind of doubt he'd do that after making a big deal about the secrecy.

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 02:57 PM
That means I have to take time to do actual research. :P

Anyway, another possibility that a friend suggested is that Taim is controlled by Demandred via a broken mindtrap:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap
He reached into the open neck of his shirt, and her own tongue clove to the roof of her mouth. Her eyes fixed on the small cage of gold wire and blood-red crystal that he drew out dangling on a cord. She thought vaguely that he tucked another just like it back in, but she had eyes only for her own. It definitely was hers. His thumb stroked, and she felt that caress across her mind, her soul. Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra. Whether or not there was any way to get free of it, a mindtrap was just what its name implied. She could feel the blood draining from her face.


It's in book 7, so a bit later than indicated, but still an intriguing idea! Not sure that I completely buy the logic (Demandred likes to work by proxies, he isn't posing as anyone we've seen onscreen (tricksy!), and he has ties to the BT.)

jason wolfbrother
11-01-2009, 03:25 PM
Excpe that is Moridin with Moghedien's mindtrap. And we later learn that Cyndane is also mindtrapped and her mindtrap is held by Moridin as well. no connection to Demandred or Taim with that quote.

Muirenn
11-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Salient part of the quote is what happens when a mindtrap is broken. The mindtrapped person becomes an automaton.

Tercel
11-01-2009, 03:34 PM
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)Yes! You've convinced me that this is what BS meant. The Fisher King is one with the land, and his injuries and mental states affect the world. As in the other quote he will Sing to the land to make green things grow. I'm guessing the Tinkers' "Tell the Dragon Reborn" means that the Tinkers need to talk to Rand to tell him about how he needs to Sing.

Terez
11-01-2009, 04:39 PM
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom. It's not just a small detail given by Thom, though - it's given in full later on:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

- From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termandal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.

So, I doubt that's it.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 04:45 PM
Slightly off topic, but I think perhaps you should censor the "thing" in Mistborn that was crucial to the plot. There are many here who have not read the series and may be tempted to read them now that they've read Brandon's writing in TGS. Therefore, we shouldn't spoil that series, too. After all, Brandon himself didn't give away what it was at the signing in Vegas.

I believe you've referenced the thing in question three or four times this thread. If you could edit it out or change it to something else, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

No problem. I wasn't thinking. My apologies.

EDIT: Fixed now.

nameless
11-01-2009, 04:59 PM
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)

Aren't we looking for something from books 4-6, though? The Dragon/Fisher King parallel was set up right off the bat in EOTW.

Kingoftonga86
11-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Thinking about Thom and Moiraine...is it possible that the small thing is when Moiraine told Thom that she would see him again at some point in the future? Although this won't really be that surprising when it happens...

I'm guessing it's something to do with Moiraine, and what she knows that means Rand will fail without her. Something from her questions to the Aelfinn? She has a few POVs in Books 4 and 5 that I should reread.

Although she claims in her note to Rand that she knows nothing about what happens after "except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you"...so I doubt her answers from the 'Finn can have to do with the future, as that "one small thing" is probably Thom's attempted rescue.

Now I'm all confused. I just finished a reread, and already I'm ready for another...

Terez
11-01-2009, 05:39 PM
Well, that comment from her has always been confusing, to me, because we know that Min shared all of her viewings with Moiraine, so Moiraine knows several thing about the future, including her marriage to Thom.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 06:39 PM
I don't think it's the health of the land thing. The Fisher King parallel has been mentioned in the books so many times and in such detail that I'm not convinced that's the small detail that nobody talks about.

Of the things mentioned here, I'm most inclined to believe the "need" thing.. what's in the Tower that they couldn't get?

Having said that, none of the options here really strike me as being of the same kind of innocuous detail that can play a big role later on. Whoever said that it was likely to be someone's eye color or dress color or an identifying detail seems to make the most sense to me.

Having said THAT.... I have no idea what it could be. I love all these new ideas we're talking about though.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 06:50 PM
I know, makes me want to post in WoT again :D

Trutino
11-01-2009, 07:24 PM
I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that. As an example, it is a big deal at first but then keeps harmlessly popping up long after it seems important. I don't know that it's that one but I like it as a model.

What are some things that people wear all the time or carry? i.e. jewelry, weapons, etc. Does anyone have an accent or a favorite phrase that they're always saying? Will Balwer dry wash someone important to death? :)

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:41 PM
Of the things mentioned here, I'm most inclined to believe the "need" thing.. what's in the Tower that they couldn't get?
Probably another bowl. There were tons of them in the Age of Legends - small regions were each controlled by one of them. If not, another ter'angreal that could have done something similar. They could always get Aviendha to visit and find out...

Callandor
11-01-2009, 07:43 PM
I remember RJ being pressed about his favorite chapter before, and he gave the standard answer of "The chapter I'm working on." But then he was a bit more revealing and said that the chapters he thought he did the best were the Rhuidean columns. Those of course have a lot of material, and do touch on the song.

Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 24 - Rhuidean

Done? What was done? What did he mean? "Burn your eyes," he muttered. "Burn your souls! You are as bad as Aes Sedai. Well, I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean, if you will not answer me. Open up a door, and let me " "Done," another man said, and one of the women echoed, "Done."

Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:52 PM
I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that.
As to Fel's comment about the seals - that came out in this book quite sharply, so it's hardly a hidden detail. The reason Rand asked Fel about it in the first place was that Lews Therin appeared to take over his body and try to break the seal that Taim had given him. So Rand asked Fel if there might be a reason why someone would break the seals. Fel seemed to think the idea was ridiculous and even a bit horrifying. But then he left the note about 'clearing the rubble - belief and order give strength'. The 'order' part might refer to something to do with the Seanchan, or just establishing order in general. The Aiel do it. Egwene has done it in the Tower. Elayne has done it in Caemlyn, etc. Belief obviously has to do with people believing that it is important to fight, like the Borderlanders in the prologue (and I think it also will come into play when they have to keep fighting after Rand dies).

If you want something interesting from Fel, it might be that he didn't seem to believe the Dragon Reborn could actually make the prison whole like the Creator made it.

If you want something from Fain....that's a good one for him to be confused about whether the info was introduced in 4, 5, or 6, because Fain was prominent in those books. The Two Rivers is a good mental landmark, and he might have been thinking, 'Well, I know it wasn't before the Two Rivers (book 4), and I know it wasn't after Lord of Chaos because that's the last time we see Fain before the incident in Cairhien where he knifes Rand (book 7), and then the incident in Far Madding (book 9).'

Maybe Fain's special talents? Torturing Fades? Being able to see Darkfriends? Being able to make people do weird things? Some people thought when Crossroads came out that maybe Fain had caused the problems in So Habor.

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?

Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

I think Gonzo suggested in another thread that maybe leavetaking is part of the ancient agreement, so they just threw something else in to make up for the fact that he wasted a wish on it.

But it also goes with the Aelfinn doorway experience - why the three extra answers? We know they were trying to get him (and Rand) out of there before the place came down on their heads or whatever, but I'm just saying.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 08:42 PM
Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?
Ooh. You know, I like this one too.

Trutino
11-01-2009, 09:22 PM
I remember RJ being pressed about his favorite chapter before, and he gave the standard answer of "The chapter I'm working on." But then he was a bit more revealing and said that the chapters he thought he did the best were the Rhuidean columns. Those of course have a lot of material, and do touch on the song.

Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?



Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

The ashandarei was actually the weapon I had in mind when I suggested that the detail might be something like a weapon that someone carries around all the time. I just assumed that the gift of the ashandarei was so strange that it must have been discussed to death already.

Terez mentioned a theory that suggested that the ashandarei was part of the leavetaking agreement but I got the feeling that the only reason Mat was allowed to leave at all was because he used one of his wishes to be back in Rhuidean. Otherwise he might have become one of the human skins the Foxes wear. Perhaps they gave the spear to him because he is ta'veren? Is the metal it is made out of important?

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:28 PM
The ravens on it might be.

Nelal Hurcran
11-01-2009, 09:29 PM
I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that. As an example, it is a big deal at first but then keeps harmlessly popping up long after it seems important. I don't know that it's that one but I like it as a model.

What are some things that people wear all the time or carry? i.e. jewelry, weapons, etc. Does anyone have an accent or a favorite phrase that they're always saying?

When I heard the reference to Mistborn, my first thought was that it would have something to do with Mat's medallion, as the two objects in question are similar from a literary standpoint. Although the ashandarei does seem more likely.....

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 09:31 PM
Perhaps they gave the spear to him because he is ta'veren? Is the metal it is made out of important?

Somewhere in the Yukko version of these forums is an old exBoard thread about "Suitable Weapons" where I suggested that the Ashendarei was a roundabout wedding gift to Tuon because it resembles a Naginata which was considered to be a "suitable weapon" for women to defend the home estate while the warriors were out doing "warriorry things."

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:41 PM
The only reason I think it may not be the ashendarei is that it's already served a very important non-weapon purpose - it attracted Tuon's interest in Mat in the first place.

Trutino
11-01-2009, 09:49 PM
Somewhere in the Yukko version of these forums is an old exBoard thread about "Suitable Weapons" where I suggested that the Ashendarei was a roundabout wedding gift to Tuon because it resembles a Naginata which was considered to be a "suitable weapon" for women to defend the home estate while the warriors were out doing "warriorry things."

Thus far the ashandarei has been a kinda cool, pointy thing with a snarky inscription on it.

(Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made. Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades. What was asked is given. The price is paid.)

The memories and the medallion have already played major parts in the overall storyline. Has the ashandarei done anything like that so far? It interested Tuon but it was his ring with the ravens in flight that tipped her off about him being her future husband, not the ashandarei. The ashandarei seems to be the "Chekov's gun" of the Eelfin experience that still needs to be used.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 09:51 PM
What if the ashandarei is an angreal, sa'angreal or ter'angreal? That would be ironic.

What if it were the Blade of Light?

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:11 PM
Well, the reference to the Mistborn detail makes me think we should be able to figure it out if we think about it enough. I'm not seeing how the ashandarei could save the day, even at Ghenjei. Anyone got any ideas?

Trutino
11-01-2009, 10:24 PM
In TFhH Lan says that it was made with the one power during the War of the Shadow. Why does it have Ravens on it? Why not a heron? Of course, herons were for blademasters and maybe some people put other birds on their blades. Why such a sinister bird? It wasn't the Seanchan symbol back then. Who made it?

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Well, the reference to the Mistborn detail makes me think we should be able to figure it out if we think about it enough. I'm not seeing how the ashandarei could save the day, even at Ghenjei. Anyone got any ideas?

What if we look at it a different way:

What are our main plotlines?
And from that, what is needed to resolve those plotlines?

And then, do we have a hint or suggestion of a solution from books 4-6?

Is this possible, or are the plot line resolutions too vague and unpredictable to do this? Can we use foreshadowing from parallel instances to draw a conclusion about what a solution might be?

Mistborn example: Vin and Zane are both having hallucinations. They both have piercings. At the same time, we know that the Inquisitors and others have spikes through them, and we know about the quote "trust nothing not written in steel". We should have been able to draw a conclusion that Zane's hallucinations and Vin's hallucinations were connected, that what they have uniquely in common are piercings, and that Ruin can manipulate any creature via Hemalurgy.

Here's a WoT example of the question I'm trying to ask:

Thom, Mat and someone else must enter the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moiraine. At some point, I believe it was revealed that the Finns were based within and/or accessible from the Tower. We were also given the indication from the Rings that they don't like music or fire. Similarly, with the Snakes and Foxes game, we discover that the only way to beat the game is to cheat.

Do we have any hints as to how to cheat the Finns?


The point is, we can pore over books 4-6 and look for tiny details and ponder about them, but unless we can attach it to a plot line, then it won't matter.

ShadowbaneX
11-01-2009, 10:43 PM
Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim):

Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc.

Actually you remind me of something Trutino, namely Taim's taunting of Bashere when they meet: Compulsion. He used Compulsion, or something very much like it on two of Bashere's officers (and I believe their wives) when they first met. If Taim's been sitting in the Black Tower using Compulsion on everyone for the past several months what could that mean?

Hmmm, hmmmm.

kivo
11-01-2009, 10:46 PM
Light burn me, I just found something. Might not be the piece in question, but...

LoC p. 183, paperback. Graendal meeting with Ituralde in Arad Doman. You know she wouldn't miss the chance to do something to him.

Good catch, Ituralde is a particularly combustible ally for Rand heading into Book 13. There's this Graendal factor you just highlighted ... and I agree, I don't think she'd miss the chance to tamper with him. Plus Rand didn't keep up his end of the deal in Arad Doman (though he could theoretically correct that post-tGS).

I personally loved the way Rand took Graendal out. I thought it was clever, and I don't need to see a one-on-one power-duel with each and every Forsaken. Plus it served a very important purpose within the story of showing just how far to the Dark Side he'd gone. Balefiring and thus forever ending the souls of a bunch of people to get at one is just flat out evil. You could argue it is just as bad as feeding a city to Trollocs.

However, maybe if Graendal gets a stab from beyond the grave by having a Manchurian candidate-ized Rodel Ituralde turn on the Good Guys, that will salve those wounds a bit for those who don't agree that the impact on the story and speeding Rand's way to hitting rock bottom was worth Graendal going out like that.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 11:07 PM
...Balefiring and thus forever ending the souls of a bunch of people to get at one is just flat out evil. ...

Balefire doesn'y destroy souls, it just sends them back to the Soul Pool sometime before the Balefire was actually woven. "Soul" and "Thread" aren't synonymous although they are usually congruent under normal cicumstances.

Trutino
11-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim):

Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc.


Actually you remind me of something Trutino, namely Taim's taunting of Bashere when they meet: Compulsion. He used Compulsion, or something very much like it on two of Bashere's officers (and I believe their wives) when they first met. If Taim's been sitting in the Black Tower using Compulsion on everyone for the past several months what could that mean?

Hmmm, hmmmm.

He does know compulsion. (LoC, 93) Unless he used the Verin method and talked to lots of male wilders with daddy issues, he probably learned it directly from someone. Perhaps the same source he learned his other old-knowledge weaves. Maybe whoever helped him escape from his Aes Sedai guard?

Terez
11-01-2009, 11:21 PM
I believe that RJ said Taim did NOT use Compulsion. Check the database.

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 11:27 PM
I'd like to throw another one out there:

From what I've seen you guys talking about, Rand's new paradigm for success stems from what could be grouped "positive" feelings, including love:


It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.

I want to do it right this time.

The love part is obvious, his "Veins of gold." And he's likely to have many of the other positive feelings as well, though when he comes back down to reality and surveys the state of the world, he may not like what he sees. So I figure, maybe a small little place we were told about way back when might be able to help him out:


Rand stopped so suddenly that Mat went three strides nearer the columned rings before realizing it. Rand was staring at the tree, Mat saw. The tree. Mat found himself moving toward it as if drawn. No tree had those trefoil leaves. No tree but one; a tree of legend.
"Avendesora," Rand said softly. "The Tree of Life. It's here."
Under the spreading branches, Mat leaped to catch one of those leaves; his outstretched fingers fell a good pace short of the lowest. He satisfied himself with walking deeper beneath that leafy roof and leaning back against the thick bole. After a moment he slid down to sit against it. The old stories were true. He felt.... Contentment. Peace. Well being. Even his feet did not bother him much.
Rand sat down cross-legged nearby. "I can believe the stories. Ghoetam, sitting beneath Avendesora for forty years to gain wisdom. Right now, I can believe."

Nelal Hurcran
11-01-2009, 11:40 PM
I don't believe that it will have anything to do with Rand.

When I think about WoT things that might resemble the Mistborn example, it always leads back to Mat. To me, he has the most things attached to him that are constant, yet easily overlooked. Plus, we know that Mat will have more of a story in ToM than Rand. Of course, that last is also true for Perrin.

Trutino
11-01-2009, 11:56 PM
I believe that RJ said Taim did NOT use Compulsion. Check the database.

Apologies. The whole "All they'll really want to do is serve and obey" thing seemed explicit at first glance but now I see RJ's blog entry on 1-20-2006 contradicts this. I've read the interviews but it's been a while. I'll go refresh on the blog entries and interviews. :o

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:09 AM
Should I feel this intimidated? I was told when I joined that this is what Theoryland strives for. ;)

I don't believe that it will have anything to do with Rand. I'm thinking the same, since Rand supposedly won't be in this book much - I want to concentrate on Mat for that reason.

Apologies.
None necessary. ;)

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 06:49 AM
not compulsion then, but something similar, something mind breaking. All this time with him doing stuff like this is a minor detail, the implication of which has largely been ignored.

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 08:20 AM
What about Avendesora? I could see the tree being something we glossed over. Oh wow, the Tree of Life, lets move on. Anyway, we know Avi is heading there, all signs point to a song being found and sung and I think Avendesora could play a big part in the fight against the blight. I can see it now, lines of weaponless Aiel, Tinkers and Ogier singing saplings to grow and fight the corruption of the blight.

bowlwoman
11-02-2009, 09:06 AM
What about Min's viewings in the first chapter of TSR? Not all of those viewings dealt with the WT split and subsequent fighting. Sheriam's viewing of her face battered and bruised didn't come to fruition until much later in the series.

I've always wondered about the "apple-cheeked Accepted" that Min views right before Sheriam. It's most likely that she's Theodrin, from the description we get of her when she initially tries to help Nyn break her block:

Another Accepted came to replace one already there, and to Min’s eyes bars floated in front of her apple-cheeked face, like a cage.

Of course, the apple-cheeked Domani woman was not Aes Sedai. Back in the Tower, Theodrin would have been raised to the shawl already, but here she had been raised to something more than Accepted, less than a full sister.

Why are there bars in front of her face? We know that currently, as of TGS, she's missing along with the other AS from the Rebel camp on the BT mission. What if she's being held in some sort of prison by Taim and/or other Asha'man? Not sure what significance this would play, but it could point to exposing Taim and his cohorts, or it could be indicative that the A'M have some way to overpower a group of women channelers, because if Theodrin retained her ability to channel, why would she be imprisoned?

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 10:14 AM
I wonder if Aviendha will be the one to bring back singing after seeing/learning it after her trip through the glass columns.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 10:24 AM
Speaking of the corruption of the lands after Rand's first wound, were his followers also corrupted? It was at the same time that Masema became fanatical, and that may have only grown worse over time, spreading through the Dragonsworn.

Also, a small detail about the Tinkers may be the fact that they were on the way to see Rand in Cairhien when they were killed, since Mat was going the opposite direction south to Tear. And obviously, the message was such a small detail to Mat since it slipped his mind when Rand showed up to send him to Salidar.

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?


As someone else pointed out, the ashandarei could simply be a sign of the bargain.
Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.
Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
What was asked is given. The price is paid.

The I think the doorways themselves also represented the compact. I believe there was discussion that with the doorway destroyed, the 3 wishes agreement is no longer in effect. Which would mean bargaining would be more difficult.

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 11:48 AM
or in the alien minds of the *'finns somehow the ashanderai was part of one of the other wishes. Perhaps it somehow has to do with his life being free of Aes Sedai (although this could also be part of marrying Tuon, I doubt Seanchan attitudes towards channelers will change overnight, marrying her could very well be part of keeping his life free of Aes Sedai) or it could have something to do with the holes in his head being filled (his knowledge seemed to tell him how to best use the weapon) or just him getting out in some obscure way.

thisiscooling
11-02-2009, 02:31 PM
that the detail has something to do with 13 black aes sedai turning someone?

its something that is mentioned over and over, but nothing has really come of that yet.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:35 PM
Nah, that was introduced in book 3. We're looking for something introduced in books 4-6.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:47 PM
Why are there bars in front of her face? We know that currently, as of TGS, she's missing along with the other AS from the Rebel camp on the BT mission.

Where were we told what AS from the rebels went to the Black Tower? I was not aware that Theodrin was one of those sent. I though she was suppost to be spying as an almost AS looking for a Sitter's protection, not off to bond dangerous Asha'man.

bowlwoman
11-02-2009, 02:57 PM
Where were we told what AS from the rebels went to the Black Tower? I was not aware that Theodrin was one of those sent. I though she was suppost to be spying as an almost AS looking for a Sitter's protection, not off to bond dangerous Asha'man.

Yes, Egwene hears the news from Romanda:

"Mother," Romanda said, "I have made the inquires you requested. There has been no contact with those sent to the Black Tower. Not a whisper."

"Does this strike you as odd?" Egwene asked.

"Yes, Mother. With Traveling they should have been there and back by now. They should have at least sent word. This silence is disturbing."

Disturbing, indeed. Even worse, that delegation contained Nisao, Myrelle, Faolain and Theodrin. Each of the women had sworn fealty to Egwene. An unsettling coincidence. The departure of Faolain and Theodrin was particulary suspicious. Supposedly, they had gone because they had no Warders, but the sisters in the camp didn't consider those two full Aes Sedai--though nobody would dare say such to Egwene directly.

Why those four, out of the hundreds of Aes Sedai in the camp, been placed in the delegation? Was it mere coincidence? It stretched plausibility. But what did it mean, then? Had someone intentionally sent away those loyal to Egwene? If so, why not send Siuan? Was this perhaps Sheriam's work? The woman had confessed to several things before her execution, but this hadn't been one of them.

Either way, something was happening with those Asha'man. The Black Tower would need to be dealt with.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:01 PM
or in the alien minds of the *'finns somehow the ashanderai was part of one of the other wishes. Perhaps it somehow has to do with his life being free of Aes Sedai (although this could also be part of marrying Tuon, I doubt Seanchan attitudes towards channelers will change overnight, marrying her could very well be part of keeping his life free of Aes Sedai) or it could have something to do with the holes in his head being filled (his knowledge seemed to tell him how to best use the weapon) or just him getting out in some obscure way.
I was going to say that the ashanderei has basically served its purpose in tying Mat to the Seanchan. However, since the Towers of Midnight are in Seanchan this might be relevant.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:02 PM
I missed that in the first rush to finish the book. Must read it again a bit slower this time.

I wonder if the two leaders of the Hall sent Faolain and Theodrin into danger as they would see it at the BT as a reward for spying on them?

Trutino
11-02-2009, 03:07 PM
As someone else pointed out, the ashandarei could simply be a sign of the bargain.


The I think the doorways themselves also represented the compact. I believe there was discussion that with the doorway destroyed, the 3 wishes agreement is no longer in effect. Which would mean bargaining would be more difficult.

It always just seemed like such an elaborate way to leave a note. Also a really nice present to give someone you just hanged. I don't know if the ashandarei is "the" detail, but if it is a sign of the bargain, I don't know why it had to be that particular gift. Why not a commemorative plaque? ;)

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:09 PM
It always just seemed like such an elaborate way to leave a note. Also a really nice present to give someone you just hanged. I don't know if the ashandarei is "the" detail, but if it is a sign of the bargain, I don't know why it had to be that particular gift. Why not a commemorative plaque? ;)
They just had it laying around, and it was too tall for them to use effectively. In other words, Mat was re-gifted.

jana
11-02-2009, 10:39 PM
Tam asked two questions for me tonite that I got while thinking of this thread.



1. Is anyone mindtrapped that we don't already know about?

I don't think the answer was recorded, but IIRC he said something like "RAFO, because something related to that comes into play later in the series"

and

2. Did Slayer enter ToG in tSR?

He replied that it's RAFO because it might be important later, and that he had to ask that specific question when he started writing the books.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 03:49 AM
When was the Ogier Book of Thingy mentioned? The one that has the theory about "taking the Ogier out of this world" floating around? Was that mentioned in books 4-6? I know it was brought up on TL, but it has been pretty much ignored for millennium.

Mat had it correct on the tinker thing, IMO. I think it was simply a tragic case of "death before important detail written down". There have been a few good cases of someone dieing before giving the final bit of info. (Harid Fel among them). Maybe we will find out what it was, but it won't be from where we expect.

Tinkers' song is a pretty good detail, but hardly hidden. It is mentioned in every book with a tinker in it, pretty much.

I'm leaning towards Ogier being a possible answer, whether my idea about their Book being correct or not. I think the last major Ogier thingy was in books 4-6. In an unrelated side-note, when did ole Loial last appear again and what was he doing?

Also, I think I got spoilerd on the Mistborn series while reading this thread. Damn.

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:51 AM
I believe it has been verified that we are not on the right track.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 04:12 AM
I believe it has been verified that we are not on the right track.Who? There are lots of "we"s in this thread :p

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:24 AM
We meaning everyone in this thread.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 04:31 AM
We meaning everyone in this thread.Awh. So nothing Ogier? Damn.

That said, I still wanna know when the last time we saw the Ogier Book of Dhoom and Cookies was. (and what the hell it's real name is)

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:40 AM
If the Ogier weren't mentioned before your post, then we can't rule them out. But if they were mentioned before, then we can.

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:41 AM
....
I just noticed your signature. Don't you have an account here already under 'Deadsy'? Or maybe that was just at ezboard....

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 04:45 AM
If the Ogier weren't mentioned before your post, then we can't rule them out. But if they were mentioned before, then we can.They were, but indirectly, and nothing about their book. The book was really the focus of my post.

Terez
11-04-2009, 04:46 AM
Well, the Book of Translation wasn't introduced in books 4-6 - it wasn't introduced till Knife of Dreams. And it's not a small detail either, and we've discussed it plenty. So we can rule that out.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 04:48 AM
Well, the Book of Translation wasn't introduced in books 4-6 - it wasn't introduced till Knife of Dreams. And it's not a small detail either, and we've discussed it plenty. So we can rule that out.Thanks, that's mostly what I was looking for. :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 05:14 AM
Book 4-6 was mainly Asmodean's Tale, wasn't it?

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:20 AM
I doubt he was talking about Asmodean. Doesn't seem to fit anything he said.

Mort
11-04-2009, 07:19 AM
Time to do a re-read of books 4-6 and write down all the possible things that might come up as a hook later on. Compare each others lists and then select a few that might fit.

The search parameter should be something like:

1. A small detail that has been brought up (in either book 4 - 6) but never discussed in the books, so it's been easily missed as a talking point.

2. Apperently, it's something that hasn't been discussed at all or extremely little on the messageboards, at least according to BS. We'll slap our head when figuring out what it is though. Something obvious hiding in plain sight.

3. Because BS wasn't really sure which book it were introduced in, I think we can rule out scene's and chapters of great significance. The attack on sammael, rahvin etc should constitute such a scene. This is not 100% bulletproof though. Either BS actually just forgot or he might have said book 4-6 to just throw us off the trail... It might give us a priority list of things to read though, ie, boring chapters first ;)

Since Rand is ahead in the timeframe than Mat and Perrin, we've (I think) concluded that those two will get much more air time in next book, an equal of Rand or even more? It may be valid to assume that the "minor detail" will affect or involve Mat or Perrin somehow

I'm almost certain that fortellings, prophecies and viewings aren't something that has been missed. Those has been gone over pretty thoroughly.

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 09:38 AM
care to cite where you're getting the example that we're off track?

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:47 PM
No.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:00 PM
No.
Then don't use it.

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:03 PM
lol, you guys can continue to concentrate on the above things if you like. But they are incorrect, so I will be looking for other things.

Or, you guys could trust me, that I know what I'm talking about but can't reveal my source. ;)

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:04 PM
lol, you guys can continue to concentrate on the above things if you like. But they are incorrect, so I will be looking for other things.
That's cool. I just thought you were the one complaining about "intellectual dishonesty" recently.


EDIT: Apparently you edited while I was responding. That would have been a nice thing to know first.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 03:05 PM
Then don't use it.
I believe we were told that she can use it.



In any case, the detail is clearly that stupid fly that's always flying around in Tel'aran'rhiod. Or wait...was that introduced at the end of Book 3?

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:07 PM
That's cool. I just thought you were the one complaining about "intellectual dishonesty" recently.
What does this have to do with that?

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 03:07 PM
Or, you guys could trust me, that I know what I'm talking about but can't reveal my source. ;)

Would you trust us?

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:08 PM
What does this have to do with that?
See edit.

Terez
11-04-2009, 03:09 PM
@Camel - Don't see why not.

Like I said, I don't care if you trust me or not. You can continue to discuss the above things if you like.

@Bela - that's pretty much what I said the first time I mentioned it. It should have been intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that I knew something but could not reveal my source.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:10 PM
Like I said, I don't care if you trust me or not. You can continue to discuss the above things if you like.
Hooray! Hey guys, we can keep trying to figure it out. :)

Hmm, when did Dream-Bela first materialize? We haven't seen her since... that we know of...

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Or, you guys could trust me, that I know what I'm talking about but can't reveal my source. ;)

Since when do we ever believe anything even when it's expressly written out in front of us?

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Since when do we ever believe anything even when it's expressly written out in front of us?

You mean like Taimandred?

Quick thought : I guess callandor would enable LT draw as much as a mixed circle of the seventy two strongest channelers of the aol.

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 03:44 PM
You mean like Taimandred?

I'm sorry, I don't understand this word you speak.

nameless
11-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Book 4-6 was mainly Asmodean's Tale, wasn't it?

Asmodean, Dreamwalker bootcamp, "lord" Perrin of the Two Rivers, the introduction of the Aeil culture, Rand's college of inventors... there's a lot to choose from. My guess is something to do with TAR, since that would tie in with Perrin's recent efforts to figure out the dreamworld. Maybe we're finally going to find out why it's a bad idea to bring your body with you into TAR? "Dreaming" in the flesh is something that was mentioned at least once in all three of the books in question.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2009, 04:01 PM
I think we need a new tshirt


"It is intuitively obvious so stop asking me"

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 04:32 PM
I believe that's called "RAFO"

shadar
11-04-2009, 05:32 PM
Speaking of using Need though, didn't Nynaeve and Elayne use Need in T'A'R to find something to fix the weather, but it originally took them to Tar Valon, but they knew that they didn't have access so they added the 'not in Tar Valon' clause? Could that be something? iirc, that topic hasn't been largely discussed.

I thought this was pretty well established. The used Need to find something to move the Salidar AS. They then ended up in Tar Valon WHERE EGWENE WAS. Eg's next POV tells of her running into them, and I think it was Elayne's POV that said she thought she saw Eg.

Pretty sure that was done and dusted.


I like the Ashandarei idea though..

From the scene:
*******************************************
“Who is the Daughter of the Nine Moons and why do I have to marry her?” "You are supposed to answer,” “Burn your bones to ash, answer me! Who is the Daughter of the Nine Moons and why do I have to marry her? How will I die and live again? What does it mean that I have to give up half the light of the world? Those are my three questions. Say something!”

“I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live
again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer - !”

"Done,” one of the men growled,

“Burn your eyes,” “Burn your souls! You are as bad as Aes Sedai. Well, I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean, if you will not answer me. Open up a door, and let me - ”

“Done,” another man said, and one of the women echoed, “Done.”

“Done? What is done? I see no door. You lying goat-fathered - ”

“Fool,” “Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms.” “Yet fool not to first agree on price.” “We will set the price.” “What was asked will be given.” “The price will be paid.”


“Burn you,” he shouted, “what are you talking - ”
*******************************************
Note what he asks for:
If I had my way, I would want those holes filled Pretty obviously, he gets the memories

Well, I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power - Again, the Amulet.

I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean again done (although not alive)


Where is the Ashandarei in that???!

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:45 PM
We don't know. But we do know that's not the detail we are looking for.

vinmin
11-04-2009, 07:24 PM
It's so obvious. The only thing that is in each and every book and is also on the same obscurity level as Vin's earing is Bella. That horse pops up everywhere. So therefore Bella is either...

a. The Creator
b. Gaidal Cain or
c. Just a really busy horse

Tamyrlin
11-04-2009, 08:49 PM
I'd almost be ready to agree, if Brandon hadn't re-confirmed the Book 4-6 comment, as to when it was first introduced.

jana
11-05-2009, 12:11 PM
I just noticed your signature. Don't you have an account here already under 'Deadsy'? Or maybe that was just at ezboard....

Ya, just ezboard

One Armed Gimp
11-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Are we sure the detail is repeated? The way I read it, he isn't sure which book its in, somewhere in 4, 5, or 6. Not that the detail is necessarily repeated throughout them.

Nelal Hurcran
11-05-2009, 12:31 PM
Are we sure the detail is repeated? The way I read it, he isn't sure which book its in, somewhere in 4, 5, or 6. Not that the detail is necessarily repeated throughout them.


I think it was more the reference to Mistborn that has us looking for recurring themes.

We can logically assume, based on what Brandon has said about the focus of ToM, that the "detail" pertains to either Perrin or Mat. Also, if we listen to Terez - cryptic much? - we see that most of what was talked about in those first posts was focused on Mat.

So while there is a possibility of it coming from any character, right now, the highest probability lies with Perrin.

Unless there's a mistake in my logic. Wouldn't be the first time...

Terez
11-05-2009, 02:16 PM
Are we sure the detail is repeated? The way I read it, he isn't sure which book its in, somewhere in 4, 5, or 6. Not that the detail is necessarily repeated throughout them.
Yes we are sure - it is a detail that has been present in the books since.

Tamyrlin
11-05-2009, 02:17 PM
not done with the transcript :(

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 05:10 PM
This is probably crazy, but there's a bit of perverse logic to it if you think about it. In other threads we've kinda been going nuts trying to figure out where Demandred is. So far we know very little save that his army is ready to go to war. Well, which army? Not likely the Seanchan. Possibly the Sharans or the Land of the Madmen, but that doesn't quite seem to fit either.

The Aiel are obviously following Rand, I doubt somehow that Demandred is actually Talmanes and secretly has control of the Band as Mat's second. Andor is in Elayne's hands, Tear is in Darlin's hand, Cairhien and Illian are also in Rand's control. Arad Doman is currently on Rand's side as well, sorta. The south-western part is in Seanchan control and Semirhage was there. I suppose it's possible that he's behind some of the chaos in Seanchan proper, but that doesn't seem to sit either, since that was, again, Semirhage's 'domain'. What's left? Tar Valon, Mesaana.

Actually, there is one area we haven't considered, in this case the group that's been acting most strangely: the Borderlanders. They've seemingly "abandoned" their posts along the Blight and been very evasive about why they wanted to meet Rand.

Abandoning their position, well, iirc, they left behind the minimal amount needed to defend the border, but took everyone else, and what's more, where is that force currently? They're in a position, at Far Madding to strike Illian, Andor and Tear and possibly hassle Cairhien as well, which would be disasterous if you needed to rally forces along the Blight!

Right now I'm thinking that if we look at Demandred's parts in books 4-6 we might find a hint that he's with the Borderlanders. Anyone wanna care to join me for looking through these parts?

Nelal Hurcran
11-05-2009, 05:21 PM
I sure hope you're wrong. The last thing I want to see is the four best military powers in Randland on the wrong side of the battle field. I like the Boarderlanders, dang-it!

nameless
11-05-2009, 05:30 PM
My biggest problem with the Borderlanders is that Graendal says flat out "maybe he's with the borderlanders." Hardly the kind of edge-of-your-seat mystery we've come to expect from the series. Sure, we've also been told flat out that Mesaana's in the Tower, but for her the mystery revolves around who she's disguised as rather than where she is. Also, the Borderlanders helped Elayne unify the Andorans, which I doubt Demandred would have been party to. (Of course, this is circular reasoning on my part because I think Demandred's in Murandy. If he wasn't involved with Roedran's unification scheme then he might not have recognized someone else pulling off the same scheme using the Borderland armies in place of the Band of the Red Hand).

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 05:38 PM
"when you've eliminated the impossible."

Strategically and tactically being in Far Madding with a force that strong makes great sense and Demandred was one of the greatest Generals on the side of the Shadow. It practically makes too much sense for him to be anywhere else. He could be in other places, but kiss would suggest that he's there.

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 05:43 PM
My biggest problem with the Borderlanders is that Graendal says flat out "maybe he's with the borderlanders." Hardly the kind of edge-of-your-seat mystery we've come to expect from the series. Sure, we've also been told flat out that Mesaana's in the Tower, but for her the mystery revolves around who she's disguised as rather than where she is. Also, the Borderlanders helped Elayne unify the Andorans, which I doubt Demandred would have been party to. (Of course, this is circular reasoning on my part because I think Demandred's in Murandy. If he wasn't involved with Roedran's unification scheme then he might not have recognized someone else pulling off the same scheme using the Borderland armies in place of the Band of the Red Hand).
depends on what his ultimate goals were. If his goal was to get to a place where he could attack Tear, Illian and Andor, then allowing some political maneuvering which might work (but also might not) to unify Andor, then it's probably worth it to have that position.

Actually, he doesn't need to attack. He can sit there in a siege and still be enough of a nuisance. That's a thread that the forces to the North cannot ignore and dividing the Light's attention right now could be all the advantage the Shadow needs.

In addition, it's also added chaos and we've seen how well that works.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 06:08 PM
"when you've eliminated the impossible."

Strategically and tactically being in Far Madding with a force that strong makes great sense and Demandred was one of the greatest Generals on the side of the Shadow. It practically makes too much sense for him to be anywhere else. He could be in other places, but kiss would suggest that he's there.
The other problem is what I suggested earlier. Are there any hints in PoD of someone convincing the Borderlanders to move south? Are there hints of an imposter or new leader on the scene? Is there anything to indicate subterfuge or hidden control?

I don't think there are. I suppose there might be one of those hints early on, but I don't remember much at all about Borderlanders in books 4-6, except Bashere.

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 06:18 PM
Not much about the Borderlanders, but there might have been hints at the Forsaken meetings.

You might be right though, this almost seems too good at times. On one hand, it's probably exactly the position you'd think a general like Demandred would want, otoh, there's little to suggest that it's happening, when we're usually given hints...unless it is the little hint that was suggested.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 07:14 PM
It's also one of the big mysteries--what the hell are they doing in Far Madding? I'll have to dig up PoD from my garage and reread the Prologue. I believe Ethenielle said something about finding Rand and "doing what needs to be done," but WTF does that mean?

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 07:21 PM
It's also one of the big mysteries--what the hell are they doing in Far Madding? I'll have to dig up PoD from my garage and reread the Prologue. I believe Ethenielle said something about finding Rand and "doing what needs to be done," but WTF does that mean?

It's really bizarre. I can maybe understand Tenobia's reasons - Taim/Bashere, but what the fuck does Easar think he's doing. Fal Dara was saved by a miracle only a couple of years previous yet he deems fit to lead a vast number of his troops out of the North :confused:

Beren
11-05-2009, 09:08 PM
Did we ever find out who gave that necklace to Avhienda? Could that be the little thing we missed? It came up in books 4 and 5 I believe. I will have to double check, but I am sure it is in book 5.

I noted it in my most recent read through and don't remember that ever being resolved from my previous reading of the series. Is there something going on behind the scenes there that we don't know about?

I assume that we are going to be getting a major part of Avhienda's story arc in ToM as she just headed off to Rhuidean. Perhaps it will show up then?

---------

The only other minor thing I noticed was the angreal that Moiraine left for Lanfear to pick up next to the Redstone Doorway into Finnland. We see from her PoV that she did not like it, but we never do find out why. We also see her grab it away from Lanfear as they tumble through the door into Finnland.


I am definitely going to have to watch for little insignificant details in my next reread.

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:12 PM
Did we ever find out who gave that necklace to Avhienda?
It was Egwene.

The only other minor thing I noticed was the angreal that Moiraine left for Lanfear to pick up next to the Redstone Doorway into Finnland. We see from her PoV that she did not like it, but we never do find out why.
It says why right then, IIRC - it depicts a person whose wrists are bound to the ankles, a torture position.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:14 PM
Did we ever find out who gave that necklace to Avhienda? Could that be the little thing we missed? It came up in books 4 and 5 I believe. I will have to double check, but I am sure it is in book 5.

I noted it in my most recent read through and don't remember that ever being resolved from my previous reading of the series. Is there something going on behind the scenes there that we don't know about?

I assume that we are going to be getting a major part of Avhienda's story arc in ToM as she just headed off to Rhuidean. Perhaps it will show up then?

---------

The only other minor thing I noticed was the angreal that Moiraine left for Lanfear to pick up next to the Redstone Doorway into Finnland. We see from her PoV that she did not like it, but we never do find out why. We also see her grab it away from Lanfear as they tumble through the door into Finnland.


I am definitely going to have to watch for little insignificant details in my next reread.

I think we might see Aviendha in the prologue. I think Moiraine was unsure to the last as to how events would play out. Perhaps in some futures she failed and handed Lanfear the means with which to defeat Rand. It was a calculated but huge risk

Moiraine http://www.b3ta.cr3ation.co.uk/data/gif/4705.adoremirror.gif

Beren
11-05-2009, 09:24 PM
Thanks guys. Obviously I missed a couple things on my re-read.

I might just have to reread those three books again before going any deeper into the series in my re-read.

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:39 PM
No prob, we've got all this amassed WoT knowledge and we'd likely go crazy if not for noobs with questions.

Welcome to Theoryland, btw. ;)

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:37 PM
Since we're talking about Borderlanders - I've always had a niggling feeling that Agelmar Jagad is a Darkfriend. Just sayin'.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Since we're talking about Borderlanders - I've always had a niggling feeling that Agelmar Jagad is a Darkfriend. Just sayin'.This.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Since we're talking about Borderlanders - I've always had a niggling feeling that Agelmar Jagad is a Darkfriend. Just sayin'.

I disagree, for no particular reason apart from you putting your neck out and needing opposition.

Was Liandrin speaking truth!

Would Ingtar have known? He would have said.

Agelmar is a good man as far as i'm concerned.

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:48 PM
I disagree, for no particular reason apart from you putting your neck out and needing opposition.
Heh. I'd really have to pull out some old notes to seriously defend this one. Or, y'know, reread tGH.

Probably the latter. I've got too many other things to read. :D

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Heh. I'd really have to pull out some old notes to seriously defend this one. Or, y'know, reread tGH.

Probably the latter. I've got too many other things to read. :D

I'd be fairly upset if that was to prove to be true. For Amalisa's sake most of all.

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 11:12 PM
I believe Ethenielle said something about finding Rand and "doing what needs to be done," but WTF does that mean?

There are hints about the Borderlanders being used for the purposes of the Shadow, in 'The Shadow Rising' book Chapter "Questioners", in particular Joiya's confession to Nynaeve and Egwene. Look at the last two pages of that Chapter in tSR.

Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al'Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War..."

This section of Joiya's confession, refers to the Borderlanders nations and their armies in particular. It fits no other nations of the Westlands possible, bit the four remaining Borderlander nations of Arad Doman, Kandor, Arafel, Shienar. There more to Joiya's confession, Taim among them...but that's why the Borderlanders are where they are.


What I don't really understand is if Verin unloaded everything about the Black Ajah, their plans, factions et la...why didn't we learn more about their plans in tGS from Egwene's pov??? Story pacing reasons??

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 11:27 PM
I disagree, for no particular reason apart from you putting your neck out and needing opposition.Well I couldn't even defend my position on this even as well as Bela here. That is to say, I just suspected it throughout the early books for no real reason other than that I did. ~shrug~

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:37 PM
Well I couldn't even defend my position on this even as well as Bela here. That is to say, I just suspected it throughout the early books for no real reason other than that I did. ~shrug~


A true and nobel belief which I commend you for.

Too many here seek facts and research, forgetting that flight and whimsy are what drives this place.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 12:01 AM
Too many here seek facts and research, forgetting that flight and whimsy are what drives this place.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 12:07 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.pngDamn, you beat me to my own joke. :(

bowlwoman
11-06-2009, 01:25 AM
It says why right then, IIRC - it depicts a person whose wrists are bound to the ankles, a torture position.

Here's an interesting thought. Are all *'angreals more or less neutral and merely a conduit for increasing/using the OP, i.e. it's the intent of the person wielding it that makes the actions good or bad, or could they possibly be attuned to good actions vs evil actions?

We know *'angreal were made during the War of Power (see Choeden Kal), so could some of them have been made by the forces of the Shadow and created specifically for nefarious purposes?

Terez
11-06-2009, 02:33 AM
I'm sure the person that made Moiraine's angreal was probably not a nice person, but I don't think it affects the way the angreal works. At least, I don't see any reason to think that it does.

jason wolfbrother
11-06-2009, 08:14 PM
No prob, we've got all this amassed WoT knowledge and we'd likely go crazy if not for noobs with questions.

Welcome to Theoryland, btw. ;)

ummm actually I think you meant crazier ;):cool: :D

Terez
11-06-2009, 08:51 PM
Good point!

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 11:59 PM
There are hints about the Borderlanders being used for the purposes of the Shadow, in 'The Shadow Rising' book Chapter "Questioners", in particular Joiya's confession to Nynaeve and Egwene. Look at the last two pages of that Chapter in tSR.


If we hadn't already discussed the heck out of the "confessions," I'd say it's a good place to look. But we've been debating them for years.

What I don't really understand is if Verin unloaded everything about the Black Ajah, their plans, factions et la...why didn't we learn more about their plans in tGS from Egwene's pov??? Story pacing reasons??
I think that's it. The Tower was attacked right after Verin died, so there wasn't a lot of time to talk about the plans. Egwene just wanted to oust the Black Ajah first.



On a completely separate note, I was looking through the E:WoT and found something I'd never noticed before. The notes for LoC point out that both Demira Eriff (in Caemlyn) and Nesune Bihara (in Cairhien) want to do research on the Seals in the respective Royal Libraries. Both are from the Brown Ajah, but are from different Towers (Nesune is from the White Tower and Demira from Salidar).

I don't do well at following the movements of non-main Aes Sedai. Is this something we've discussed before?

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:02 AM
I can recall discussing it before.

aynatal2000
11-08-2009, 06:25 PM
When Nynaev and Elayne found all that sa angreal and ter angreal there was something that depicted a hand... and something that seemed to suggest song or music to Elayne(?).Nothing has ever been made of these findings/discoveries.It is only a sentence or two and forgive me I can't remember what book... but I am sure that many of you can quote chapter and verse.I think this is what he is talking about.The item that suggests song I thought might be the key that would be needed to get the song to all the Tinker descendants instantly- or to open their memory. All of this is with Elayne now in Andor.Another thing,does anyone think that the circle that Rand will have to be a part of to wield Callandor and the sword Justice will be Elayne,Aviendha and Moraine.
Lastly,Shara; what gives?

Weird Harold
11-08-2009, 06:37 PM
When Nynaev and Elayne found all that sa angreal and ter angreal there was something that depicted a hand... and something that seemed to suggest song or music to Elayne(?).Nothing has ever been made of these findings/discoveries.It is only a sentence or two and forgive me I can't remember what book... but I am sure that many of you can quote chapter and verse.I think this is what he is talking about.The item that suggests song I thought might be the key that would be needed to get the song to all the Tinker descendants instantly- or to open their memory. All of this is with Elayne now in Andor.Another thing,does anyone think that the circle that Rand will have to be a part of to wield Callandor and the sword Justice will be Elayne,Aviendha and Moraine.
Lastly,Shara; what gives?
The Ebou Dar ter'angreal stash wasn't revealed until book 8 and most of them weren't identified until Aviendha discovered her Talent for identifying ter'angreal in KoD.

Also, the Stash and the various ter'angreal have been discussed whenever things get boring aoround here as a way of avoiding Asmodean and real/construct brawls.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 08:40 PM
Also, the Stash and the various ter'angreal have been discussed whenever things get boring aoround here as a way of avoiding Asmodean and real/construct brawls.
Wait, you guys actually started avoiding Asmo and Construct brawls?

Maybe that's why you all got so cranky while I was away.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 09:28 PM
Well, only two women are needed in the circle, actually, I think it needs to be two women because any more then that and the man needs to lead, so not likely to be all three.

As for the identities of those two, Moiraine, if she's actually able to channel might well be one (sorry Frenzy, it's just too likely to happen), Nynaeve could be another. Elayne is pregnant and so she's not likely to be able to channel. Aviendha is about to be a full Wise One and at that point I espect Elayne and her to lay a wreathe and Rand's feet and she's also likely soon to be having kids as per Min's vision...also, it's not like Rand can really hide from them with the Bond.

Alivia is another possibility, since she's supposed to help him die. There are quite a few possibilities.

As for Shara, well, what about it? We're not likely to see it if that's what you're asking about.

nameless
11-09-2009, 02:23 AM
When Nynaev and Elayne found all that sa angreal and ter angreal there was something that depicted a hand... and something that seemed to suggest song or music to Elayne(?).Nothing has ever been made of these findings/discoveries.It is only a sentence or two and forgive me I can't remember what book... but I am sure that many of you can quote chapter and verse.I think this is what he is talking about.The item that suggests song I thought might be the key that would be needed to get the song to all the Tinker descendants instantly- or to open their memory. All of this is with Elayne now in Andor.Another thing,does anyone think that the circle that Rand will have to be a part of to wield Callandor and the sword Justice will be Elayne,Aviendha and Moraine.
Lastly,Shara; what gives?

Item that suggests song? Do you mean the AOL music box or the thing that made Aviendha think of holes and is probably activated by singing? Cause I'm pretty sure that second one is used to grow new Waygates, or maybe even new stedding. As for the music box, it might have the seedsongs but structurally it makes more sense that the Tinkers would have to learn those from the Aiel. Otherwise the whole Tinker/Aiel/Lost Ones fued will never be resolved.

Terez
11-09-2009, 02:35 AM
The Aiel don't know them, though. Unless you count Rand. He is half-Aiel, and he almost assuredly remembers the seedsongs now that his memories are integrated.

nameless
11-09-2009, 02:40 AM
He heard seed songs through his ancestor's POV in the glass columns. Presumably he's not the only one, although you're right that there's no guarentee any of the other Clan Chiefs or Wise Ones have enough of an ear for music to reproduce them.

Also, back in the prologue to tEoTW, Lews Therin asks Ishamael if he has the Voice. That seems to indicate that just knowing the songs isn't enough to make them work, just like an Ogier without the Treesinging ability will never get a response even if he hits every note perfectly.

Terez
11-09-2009, 02:53 AM
He heard seed songs through his ancestor's POV in the glass columns. Presumably he's not the only one, although you're right that there's no guarentee any of the other Clan Chiefs or Wise Ones have enough of an ear for music to reproduce them. Or even that the whole song was heard. Some might not have heard seed singing at all, as everyone's ancestors are different.

Also, back in the prologue to tEoTW, Lews Therin asks Ishamael if he has the Voice. That seems to indicate that just knowing the songs isn't enough to make them work, just like an Ogier without the Treesinging ability will never get a response even if he hits every note perfectly. It seems to be an inborn Aiel ability. I wonder how it came about that Aiel men won't sing, except for battle dirges.

One thing that seems to be forgotten is that the prophecies say Rand will give the Aiel back their places of old. Servants of the Servants again, or seed singing? Of course, if it's seed singing, then they would have to make some more Nym for that to work.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 09:42 AM
The Ebou Dar ter'angreal stash wasn't revealed until book 8 and most of them weren't identified until Aviendha discovered her Talent for identifying ter'angreal in KoD.

Also, the Stash and the various ter'angreal have been discussed whenever things get boring aoround here as a way of avoiding Asmodean and real/construct brawls.

Wasn't it amazing helpful that Avi discovered that talent at that exact moment? What are the odds of her being able to determine a ter'angreal's use just by touching it right at the same time that Elayne and Nynaeve unearthed a large amount of ter'angreal. The Pattern is amazing sometimes.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 09:55 AM
Well, I am not sure how many other ter'angreal she'd touched so far.

Bonzi77
11-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Wasn't it amazing helpful that Avi discovered that talent at that exact moment? What are the odds of her being able to determine a ter'angreal's use just by touching it right at the same time that Elayne and Nynaeve unearthed a large amount of ter'angreal. The Pattern is amazing sometimes.

How many ter'angreal do you think she encountered before that moment? I'm having a hard time thinking of where she would have previously seen one thats use was not already known before finding that stash. She needs ter'angreal to read before the talent can be exposed.

It's sort of like how Nicola realized that she could read ta'veren on the moment Mat came into camp. Before that point there were no ta'veren for her to see.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 10:41 AM
I just think its a lucky coincidence that the one AS who was capable of making ter'angreal just happens to be best friends with the only known channeler who can simply pick up a ter'angreal and know what its purpose is.

WinespringBrother
11-09-2009, 11:02 AM
That would be funny if Alivia could do so also. It seems that either Semirhage could, or one of the damane in Ebou Dar, to duplicate the Domination Band.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 11:25 AM
I just think its a lucky coincidence that the one AS who was capable of making ter'angreal just happens to be best friends with the only known channeler who can simply pick up a ter'angreal and know what its purpose is.
There is no coincidence, there is only the Wheel.

That would be funny if Alivia could do so also. It seems that either Semirhage could, or one of the damane in Ebou Dar, to duplicate the Domination Band.

Well, if you're launching an invasion with little expectation of resupply you'd probably bring along craftspeople to repair and replace equipment.

WinespringBrother
11-09-2009, 11:36 AM
There is no coincidence, there is only the Wheel.



Well, if you're launching an invasion with little expectation of resupply you'd probably bring along craftspeople to repair and replace equipment.

Well it implies that damane can duplicate other ter'angreal than the a'dam, if one of them duplicated the DB. So they aren't limited then (except maybe by no access to other ter'angreal).

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 11:40 AM
I can recall discussing it before.
Of course you can. Thanks for your help.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 11:46 AM
I just think its a lucky coincidence that the one AS who was capable of making ter'angreal just happens to be best friends with the only known channeler who can simply pick up a ter'angreal and know what its purpose is.Well, you know Mat is quite a lucky guy. Lucky enough, actually, not to get saddled with either of those two, since they both latched on to his ta'veren friend.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 11:57 AM
something that just occurred to me, or perhaps remembered, does it state in tGH when the sul'dam is explaining about damane to Egwene that if it's found that if she can make a'dam she'll be shipped back to Seandar?

I cannot seem to find the right works to bring it up in the search. I can find one reference, but I think the shipping is the paragraph after the one I can find.

Birgitte
11-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Well, you know Mat is quite a lucky guy. Lucky enough, actually, not to get saddled with either of those two, since they both latched on to his ta'veren friend.


I'm pretty sure he thanks the Light for that every day. I know I would. ;)

Davian93
11-09-2009, 12:14 PM
something that just occurred to me, or perhaps remembered, does it state in tGH when the sul'dam is explaining about damane to Egwene that if it's found that if she can make a'dam she'll be shipped back to Seandar?

I cannot seem to find the right works to bring it up in the search. I can find one reference, but I think the shipping is the paragraph after the one I can find.

I thought they were referring to her abilities with Earth and Fire and finding mines. Making a'dam was brought up as a more valuable Talent than that known ability of Egwene's.

Somewhere around this quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 42 - Falme
"You still do not know what this is like." Egwene tugged at the collar; pulling did no more good than channeling had. "When Renna is wearing that bracelet, she knows what I am doing with the Power, and what I am not. Sometimes she even seems to know when she isn't wearing it; she says sul'dam develop - an affinity, she calls it - after a while." She sighed. "No one even thought to test me on this earlier. Earth is one of the Five Powers that was strongest in men. When I picked out those rocks, she took me outside the town, and I was able to point right to an abandoned iron mine. It was all overgrown, and there wasn't any opening to be seen at all, but once I knew how, I could feel the iron ore still in the ground. There hasn't been enough to make it worth working in a hundred years, but I knew it was there. I couldn't lie to her, Min. She knew I had sensed the mine as soon as I did. She was so excited, she promised me a pudding with my supper." She felt her cheeks growing hot, in anger and embarrassment. "Apparently," she said bitterly, "I am now too valuable to be wasted making things explode. Any damane can do that; only a handful can find ores in the ground. Light, I hate making things explode, but I wish that was all I could do."


and this one

CHAPTER: 42 - Falme
"Stop it!" Min snapped. "You stop it right this instant! If you get shipped off to Seanchan, I'll be right there with you. But I don't think you will. You know I've read you, Egwene. I don't understand most of it - I almost never do - but I see things I am sure link you to Rand, and Perrin, and Mat, and - yes, even Galad, the Light help you for a fool. How can any of that happen if the Seanchan take you off across the ocean?"

Terez
11-09-2009, 12:19 PM
Of course you can. Thanks for your help.
Any time.

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm pretty sure he thanks the Light for that every day. I know I would. ;)

Turning down two voluptuous sirens, for a bald, short, shapeless madwoman? Not sure that would have been Mat's greatest achievement.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Turning down two voluptuous sirens, for a bald, short, shapeless madwoman? Not sure that would have been Mat's greatest achievement.

Mat and Elayne would have made a great couple...ashame Rand got in the way.


Back to SBX's search, I think I'm getting closer:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 42 - Falme
Renna took the chair, frowning at Egwene. "I must punish you severely for this. We will both be called to the Court of the Nine Moons - you for what you can do; I as your sul'dam and trainer - and I will not allow you to disgrace me in the eyes of the Empress. I will stop when you tell me how much you love being damane and how obedient you will be after this. And, Tuli. Make me believe every word."

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 12:35 PM
You were looking way too far. And the chapter had a fairly suggestive title to boot:
Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor – he was not Emperor then, of course – since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."

Davian93
11-09-2009, 12:37 PM
Yeah, I just found the same quote after searching for "a'dam".

Bonzi77
11-09-2009, 12:40 PM
I just think its a lucky coincidence that the one AS who was capable of making ter'angreal just happens to be best friends with the only known channeler who can simply pick up a ter'angreal and know what its purpose is.

Could be a coincidence, or it could be something in their personalities that drew them to each other. I wouldn't assume that Elayne is the only AS who can make ter'angreal, just that she's the only one who it would have occurred to to try. Aes Sedai tend not to be "think outside the box" type of women. Once it became accepted that the making of ter'angreal was lost, very few of them would have worked at it. It's the same reason Nynaeve was the only one who thought to try and heal stilling and why no one was trying to rediscover Traveling before Rand got Egwene's creativity flowing.

So Elayne's curiosity which led to that discovery is a quality that would have endeared her to Aviendha more than an Aes Sedai who was more traditional.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 02:29 PM
You were looking way too far. And the chapter had a fairly suggestive title to boot:
that was the quote I originally found Gonzo. I was thinking that perhaps there was something in the paragraph that followed that one that states that if she can make a'dam she'll be taking to Seandar. I think it also mentioned something about her getting sweets for it and possibly getting fat because of it, ie a life of leisure, even if it is on a leash...either that or I've lost my mind, so yeah.

Devlin1969
11-13-2009, 01:30 PM
So has anyone else thought about the bonding by Alanna.

The first time Alanna brings up bonding the "3 boys" is in book 4, when she is in the two rivers with Verin. (Faile figured it out and threatened to kill her if she bonded Perrin)
And then in book 6, she bonds Rand!

Kurtz
11-13-2009, 01:40 PM
So has anyone else thought about the bonding by Alanna.

The first time Alanna brings up bonding the "3 boys" is in book 4, when she is in the two rivers with Verin. (Faile figured it out and threatened to kill her if she bonded Perrin)
And then in book 6, she bonds Rand!

That's a very good shout, since it's a pretty big occurrence purely to identify Rand's strength of character/inability to be forced, and nothing has come of it since. It has more or less been sidelined. Alanna certainly has a part to play, I thought she would die though and affect him that way (she still may)

Spasmodean
11-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Perhaps something from the school in Caihienin?
Like the Steam Engine guy. He showed up later on in the series as well and his contraptions were becoming more coherent weren't they?

Davian93
11-13-2009, 02:11 PM
That's a very good shout, since it's a pretty big occurrence purely to identify Rand's strength of character/inability to be forced, and nothing has come of it since. It has more or less been sidelined. Alanna certainly has a part to play, I thought she would die though and affect him that way (she still may)

It did kinda help save his life a couple times when they've used that bond to find Rand. I'd say its been pretty significant.

Kurtz
11-13-2009, 02:14 PM
It did kinda help save his life a couple times when they've used that bond to find Rand. I'd say its been pretty significant.

For what it is, I think that's rather slight.

Terez
11-13-2009, 02:17 PM
Another possibility is this:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 15 - A Pile of Sand

"So the Aes Sedai’s golden children have decided to take a rest, have they?" Faolain’s smile was as far from friendly as it was possible for a smile to be. "I am not here for the joy of it, you know. I meant to spend today working on something of my own, something not terribly inferior to what you golden children have done, I think. Instead, I must watch Accepted scrub pots for their sins. Watch so you don’t sneak off like the wretched novices the pair of you should be. Now back to work. I can’t leave until you’re done, and I do not intend to spend the whole day here." Which goes along with this:
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn

"A nasty woman," Min murmured, squinting after Faolain as she hurried the other across the common room. "You'd think, if there was any justice, she would have an unpleasant future ahead of her."
We have discussed that some, but not much, cause there's not a lot to go on. Also, it's not really a minor detail comparable to the Mistborn example, and it hasn't exactly been present for 'books and books'.

ZaderGru
11-13-2009, 02:55 PM
Seems you also found The Towers Of Midnight

Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free

Helps when looking, to look for the wrong thing

Terez
11-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Wat?

Kurtz
11-13-2009, 03:05 PM
Wat?

Indeed

ShadowbaneX
11-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Isn't she also currently MIA at the Black Tower? That could be kinda big.

Tercel
11-13-2009, 03:27 PM
It's also one of the big mysteries--what the hell are they doing in Far Madding? I'll have to dig up PoD from my garage and reread the Prologue. I believe Ethenielle said something about finding Rand and "doing what needs to be done," but WTF does that mean?I read PoD recently and I thought it made it relatively clear what the purpose of the Borderlanders was:

Prologue, Path of Daggers:
'Did I make the right choice [to come south]?' ... '[Yes becuase] the White Tower appears to be paralysed as well as shattered. You could have sat watching the Blight while the world crumbled behind you. You could have if you were someone else.' The simple need to act. Was that what had brought her here? Well, if the White Tower would not or could not do what had to be done, then someone must. What good to guard th Blight if the world did crumble behind her?... Too many rulers to the south had died or vanished in the last year for her to feel any comfort in wearing a crown. Too many lands had been smashed as thoroughly as an army of Trollocs could have achieved. Whoever he was, this al'Thor fellow had much to answer for. Much.
...some of us could find our heads on spikes. Perhaps all of us will. The White Tower may well see to it if this al'Thor does not.
If Aes Sedai had gained a hint of their plans... She would dislike discovering that she was putting her hands into two hornet nests, not just one...
'Further south,' Easar added, 'it may be well to have thirteen Aes Sedai with us.'...
Now they had to find Rand al'Thor. And do what needed to be done. Whatever the price.

Also of note, is that the presence of the 13 Aes Sedai was not originally anticipated by the Borderlander rulers. So their plan had not involved the use of AS against Rand.

Clearly the rulers are concerned about:
1. The disorder in the non-Borderlander nations, and they intend to try and help.
2. They feel the White Tower is not doing its duty in keeping nations running and dealing with Rand.
3. That much of the disorder is being caused by Rand. They have an unspecified agenda aimed at stopping Rand causing disorder. [It is also implied somewhere they feel slighted he has ignored the Borderlanders so far]
4. Their plan did not originally involve the use of AS. So obviously if they did plan to capture Rand they would have to use Far Madding, which as we know from tGS they do use.

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:28 PM
Isn't she also currently MIA at the Black Tower? That could be kinda big. Yes. I think that her deal will be big, according to Min's vision, but I don't think it fits what BS said, about the detail being comparable to the Mistborn detail, and also being present in 'books and books'.

However, I just realized that, since Min saw something for Faolain's future, it's doubtful that the rebels have been killed, and probably the Reds are only captives as well. I was hoping they weren't dead. But if they're being held captive, then that would be reason for Egwene to get involved in the Black Tower battle - the huge Battle of Caemlyn that the guys over at 13th Depository have been predicting? - and also the confrontation between Egwene and Rand could happen there (as they seem to have been connected in Elaida's Foretelling anyway).

ShadowbaneX
11-13-2009, 05:52 PM
ok, let's go the with idea that this is the detail and see if it fits the other criteria? Have other things come up, hints, suggestions, etc, in later books about what it might occur? Subtle foreshadowing or similar?

Terez
11-13-2009, 06:07 PM
That's the problem - I can't think of ANYTHING except those two quotes I posted. Maybe someone else will have better luck coming up with stuff from later books.

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 12:23 AM
So, off the top of my head, the only thing that's really fitting BS's comments is Slayer and book 4-6's indication of his likely presence within the Tower of Ghenji. ...or something about Fain... or the Tinkers and their Song.

The small detail maybe have to do with the 'other Luca', cast out of the Da'shain as seen by Rand (TSR, Chapter 25). The better known Luca, is Valan Luca, the leader of a Circus band with a Tinker like wagon, who has taken in Sea Folk men as acrobats.

That's a strange combination Sea Folk men, not on boats or close to the water, but in a circus? At least Bayle Doman's Sea Folk crew member(s), was working on a boat in a river; but not on salt water and working for a shorebounder. All these Sea Folk men, would be outsiders from their native societal groups; as is Valan Luca himself, and I believe as an ex-Tinker.

Valan Luca is first seen in book 5, but the 'other Luca' is seen in book 4, by Rand's pov.

Last we know of Valan Luca, he was heading into Murandy with his Circus and then onto Caemlyn. Chuckles...a chance reunion of Mat, Elayne, Birgitte, Aludra, Noal and the possibility of Valan Luca meeting some more Sea Folk.

There is something I'm missing about Valan Luca background and his likely future; just can't put my finger on it at the moment. Sometimes I wonder if it has to do with Valan Luca's own stories of Shara? Noal has some stories, but he isn't an ex-Tinker nor of a Sea Folk Clan or one of the Aiel Clans. Maybe the interaction of Mat, Bayle, Berelain, Noal, Valan Luca, a Sea Folk person and a Wise One will shred more light on this in ToM?


EDIT: Is Valan Luca, the re-born soul combination of the "Luca" in Rand's Rhuidean vision?

Luca, with his shoulders half again as wide as anyone else’s; he liked to play tricks.

Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin’s body on.

What part of Valan Luca's claim of visiting Shara to Nynaeve et la is true, and did he have to kill someone to survive and escape Shara at sometime in the past?

isamu237
11-16-2009, 02:33 AM
speaking of stuff that wasn't discussed, I'm surprised no one's brought up Egwene's use of need in t'a'r taking her to a tinker camp, but yeah, that's another topic.

Could this have something to do with what I brought up a few days ago regarding Mat and the dead Tinkers? Egy jumps into a Tinker camp using Need in TAR, and a couple books later Mat finds a group of slaughtered Tinkers with a blood scrawled message of "Tell the Dragon Reborn." Neither of these two events have been explained as far as I know. Could they be connected?

Terez
11-16-2009, 02:35 AM
We've discussed that. Not much to go on, so....impossible to say.

isamu237
11-16-2009, 02:44 AM
Perusing the posts it seems we've lost a little focus.
From the BS quote, we need to find more than just something we've overlooked that will play a role in the story somehow. My impression of his statement is that this small thing is earth-shatteringly huge. Whatever it is, it has to be something that effects the climax, i.e. the Last Battle, sealing away the DO or something else of similar climatic import.