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Enigma
11-01-2009, 12:44 PM
Given the signing report given at Dragonmount where its reported that BS said Rand is tied to the health of the land I was wondering if this might have something to do with why the DO would seem to want to have Rand alive at SG for the Last Battle.

We know that the bore is widning but even if all the seals are gone that just leaves the DO back as he was in the end of the AoL. He was wining a military victory but the world/existance was not comming to an end and he was still trapped.

Likewise in the portal stone world Rand visited in TGH the shadow had won a military victory but the world endured.

Could it be that if the DO has a live breathing Rand in the Pit of Dhoom at the Last Battle he can influence the entire pattern at the same time. Just as he was able to taint Saidin because it touch him at SG could he be able to finally destroy the pattern by sending some sort of shock wave into the pattern via Rand who seems to be liked to it?

Wunderwaffe
11-01-2009, 01:39 PM
If Rand went by himself, or without Mat and Perrin, I would see this as a possibility. However, the DO is doomed with all three ta'veren present. Mat has a larger role to play than simply being the military commander of the forces of Light. The events that will occur at Shayol Ghul are infinitely more important. The running of the war can easily be put into the capable hands of the Aiel Chiefs, Bashere, Bryne, Ituralde, Jagad, etc. None of those individuals are ta'veren.

Likewise with Perrin; his ability to talk to wolves, perhaps leading them into some physical battle with Halfmen and Trollocs isn't his purpose or function. It's not why, when he is together with Rand, the fireflies seem to be holding the darkness at bay. Perrin has demonstrated that he has talent for leading. He isn't interested in the petty politics of nobles, which makes him an ideal commander. With that being said, I would be terribly disapointed if all Mat and Perrin did was lead troops into battle against Trollocs. It wouldn't make sense. Many men and women are capable of being leaders. This doesn't necessarily mean they are special. Mat, Perrin, and Rand are special. Mat, Perrin, and Rand need to be there at the Bore. It is the only way the fireflies have a chance of vanquishing the darkness per Min's vision.

Beyond that, I am not entirely sure what they need to do to succeed.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Given the signing report given at Dragonmount where its reported that BS said Rand is tied to the health of the land I was wondering if this might have something to do with why the DO would seem to want to have Rand alive at SG for the Last Battle.

We know that the bore is widning but even if all the seals are gone that just leaves the DO back as he was in the end of the AoL. He was wining a military victory but the world/existance was not comming to an end and he was still trapped.

Likewise in the portal stone world Rand visited in TGH the shadow had won a military victory but the world endured.

Could it be that if the DO has a live breathing Rand in the Pit of Dhoom at the Last Battle he can influence the entire pattern at the same time. Just as he was able to taint Saidin because it touch him at SG could he be able to finally destroy the pattern by sending some sort of shock wave into the pattern via Rand who seems to be liked to it?
I think, that I would love for Rand's presence in the Bore to be essential for the Dark One breaking free. I've always had a big problem with Let the lord of chaos rule order. It was always very poorly motivated, it was obvious that killing the Dragon Reborn would kill all hope for the Light, hence the Dark One would win. BUT. If Rand is essential for the Dark One to open the prison up ( As he needs to, to do a proper resealing (or as I prefer to theorize, a proper Healing) of the Bore ), then the Lord of chaos rule makes some sense at least.

And there is a real shocker in this explanation. The Dark One still needs human aid to escape. Leaving him, never attacking the Bore and Shayol Ghul, would keep him imprisoned. I.e. mankind continually help the Dark One to the brink of escaping, by being manipulated by the Shadow.

The problem with this line of thinking is of course that I believe that we have evidence from the Age of Legends that the Bore did in fact continue to expand and widen without help, before Lews Therin sealed it.... sigh.

Feels like I'm running in circles here.

Terez
11-01-2009, 04:33 PM
Given the signing report given at Dragonmount where its reported that BS said Rand is tied to the health of the land wait....didn't we know this without BS telling us? :confused: We have known this since book one, I think...Thom says 'The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon one with the land'.....and there's a prophecy saying something like 'There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, because the land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land...'

All that from memory, lol...

Enigma
11-01-2009, 04:47 PM
IThe problem with this line of thinking is of course that I believe that we have evidence from the Age of Legends that the Bore did in fact continue to expand and widen without help, before Lews Therin sealed it.... sigh.

It could be that the DO can only open the bore himself to a certain amount. If someone drills a small hole in a big wall soneone on one side of the wall might manage to poke a finger or two in the hole and dislodge some weak material around the drill sight and widen the hole a bit but it does not mean he can bring down the entire wall.

Like wise I can only assume that humans can't break him free entirely. The Shadow did not lack resources in the War, towards the end they were winning after all and controled vast territories. Added to that the Shadow had in Lanfear the chief architect of the bore. If humans could widen the bore significantly or even shatter the prison the DO would probably have ordered had Lanfear do it.

From some of the forsaken thoughts we know that almost as much effort went into turning LTT as defeating him. Getting LTT on side could well have provided the DO the opening he needed to shatter the pattern completly and escape his prison.

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 04:54 PM
Yeah. It's annoying that these things aren't explained better. It's fundamental flaws in the series.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 05:01 PM
I respectfully disagree. Part of the joy of the series is working things out. That is after all what we do here. RJ dropped hints, clues and part of the reason why a reread is so much fun over and over is to pick up the little bits that we missed. All that would be gone if everything was laid out in front of us nice and neat but without any mystery.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 05:03 PM
Perhaps the Bore can only be opened so wide because Herid Fel was correct in his surmising that the Bore was simply drilled through a prior patch. Kinda like chipping away a concrete plug surrounded by granite.

Without a ta'veren (like the Dragon) to warp the Pattern, there is no way for the DO to break free. That would explain the vast amount of effort that has been expended in trying to turn Rand.

Enigma
11-01-2009, 05:12 PM
Given RJ's love of balance it would make sense that the very thing that might enable the DO to break free would also be the very thing that could seal him up as well.

I can't see Rand being able to fight the DO in a duel. With the CK gone there is no way he is strong enough even with a circle and callandor. Rand is only human and personally I think that he is as strong as he is because its the Pattern's way of giving him the tools to survive long enough to get to SG. If its not the One Power then all we have left is his Ta'veren's ability.

Davian93
11-01-2009, 05:20 PM
Given RJ's love of balance it would make sense that the very thing that might enable the DO to break free would also be the very thing that could seal him up as well.

I can't see Rand being able to fight the DO in a duel. With the CK gone there is no way he is strong enough even with a circle and callandor. Rand is only human and personally I think that he is as strong as he is because its the Pattern's way of giving him the tools to survive long enough to get to SG. If its not the One Power then all we have left is his Ta'veren's ability.

I think one of the most important aspects of Rand's "rebirth" on Dragonmount at the end of TGS was the realization that the OP alone will not win the Last Battle. He realized that he could channel as much True Power from the DO as he could with the CK maxed out. If the CK maxed out can maybe match the DO, there is no way he will be able to beat him that way.

Thus, enter the 3 Ta'veren.

Terez
11-01-2009, 06:08 PM
I think Rand misinterpreted the 'Into the heart' prophecy. That one has always bothered me, because he tried to fulfill it forcibly.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 07:33 PM
wait....didn't we know this without BS telling us? :confused: We have known this since book one, I think...Thom says 'The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon one with the land'.....and there's a prophecy saying something like 'There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, because the land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land...'

All that from memory, lol...
The difference here is that Brandon exlicitly eliminated the "sure but it's only a metaphorical link" argument.

I've been called crazy and senile for saying the same thing because Icouldn't point to a specific corelation. :D

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:03 PM
The difference here is that Brandon exlicitly eliminated the "sure but it's only a metaphorical link" argument.

I've been called crazy and senile for saying the same thing because I couldn't point to a specific correlation. :D
By me? I don't recall arguing about this one.

Weird Harold
11-01-2009, 08:12 PM
By me? I don't recall arguing about this one.
no, not by you, by those who routinely resort to ad hominem attacks when they can't follow a line of speculation.

Terez
11-01-2009, 08:15 PM
Oh, okay. I would have been really disappointed if it was me, cause Im pretty sure I've always thought it was possible...just unsupportable. I'm kinda sad that BS confirmed it, because it got more supportable in this book.

Also, I think I might have said you were crazy before, but I don't think I've accused you of being senile. Just 4A. :D