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Tercel
11-01-2009, 06:38 PM
As I was reading the book I was very confused by the dual after-effects of Rand using the True Power and Rand becoming ice (aka his negative Tav'ereness / negative one-ness with the land).

During Semirhage's leashing, two things happen almost simultaneously:

1) Rand channels the True Power - which immediately had me wondering about possible after-effects... Is the DO now bound to him? Can the DO touch the world through him? Can the DO affect his mental state? etc.

2) Rand suffers greatly and decides he is not hard enough and becomes insanely hard-hearted. Apparently this mental state affects the world through his being tav'eren and fisher-king link to the land.

Throughout the rest of the book I am confused as to which of those is responsible for what. Things to be accounted for:
A) Rand's sometimes noticed black shadow
B) People around him feeling he radiates ominous power.
C) Rand's Tav'eren twisting having only negative effects and no positives to balance it
D) The grain all spoiling simultaneously in Bandar Eban.
E) Rand's near-insanity
F) Rand's decision to destroy the Pattern with the CK.
G) The massive erosion of barriers between past lives such that Rand remembers 1000s of his lives at once.

At the time of reading I really wasn't sure, but was leaning toward putting most of these in the "caused by the True Power" basket. However, in this forum we have been discussing just how much Rand's bond with the land affects the world. And BS has explicitly stated it was Rand's negative mood combined with his Tav'ereness that caused all the grain to spoil.

Hence I am wondering, did the True Power have any negative after-effects? Or not?

Davian93
11-01-2009, 06:44 PM
It had to have some effects if nothing more, it probably fueled his insane negativity.

Zaela Sedai
11-01-2009, 06:55 PM
I'm sure it fueled the negativity fire, but I don't think it directly caused any of those things except E.... and I think the DO was able to alter some stuff through him, but I think that is shut down now. I think we will understand more within the first couple chapters of Rand in the next book. I personally don't expect to see a negative Rand any longer and that will keep the DO at bay, well at least from controlling anything through Rand

1Powerslave
11-01-2009, 07:07 PM
Instinctively when reading I thought that A and B at least was because of the True Power. Perhaps we will find in the next book that Rand is back to a very stabil self mentally. But that he still will radiate danger/blackness/evil (that once he touch the True Power he will remain tainted by it), and that that will make the people around him question him still. And that that perhaps will cause him doubts in himself. He kept the CK with him to keep his addiction to the True Power at bay, to balance it. Now that the CK is gone, that counter weight will not help him. His addiction might still be left and cause him problems.

One Armed Gimp
11-01-2009, 07:21 PM
A and B I think for sure. What scares me is C and D. Those combined with Caddy's on the spot belief that she would have died had she stayed after the TP incident push me toward the belief that the DO was able to touch the world through Rand.

Channeling of the TP takes two actions. First the DO has to allow you access and second the person has to consciously reach for and channel that power. I believe this action opened the door for the DO to user Rand for the time being.

However, I think this can be reversed, or at the least, the DO shut out. I'm hoping that Rand's actions at the end of the book have started this. Yeah, he does not have that counter balance, but if he is back to the old Rand then I don't think we will have a problem.

Terez
11-01-2009, 07:33 PM
It may be that the balefire accounts for some things - not really Rand using it, since that was recent, but the obvious objective of using balefire that was introduced in the prologue of Lord of Chaos, when Demandred went to Shayol Ghul. How much of this 'thinning of reality' - the ghosts, the changing corridors, etc. - is due to balefire? It's not a new theory, but it is a theory that got stronger in this book, and also, it's one of the few things that we have contradicting fan reports about, in the interview database:

Knife of Dreams book tour 4 November 2005 - Bluecole reporting (http://p094.ezboard.com/fwheeloftimefrm37.showMessage?topicID=57.topic)

The theory that Demandred is using balefire at the direction of the Dark One to loosen the weave of the Pattern is squashed by RJ (confirmed).
Perhaps the person was being unclear? Squashed means RJ debunked it, and the (confirmed) seems to refer to the squashing being confirmed. Anyway...

Tamyrlin reporting: (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/201057/t/signing-report-from-coldrock-hold.html#reply-201057)

Two users on Theoryland.com, both new, apparently asked specifically about the Balefire and Chaos theory. Here is how they replied on the site (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/../theories.php?func=5&rec=131&theo=2372):

This one by congo red jr:
Quote:Well I asked Mr. Jordan about this theory, in brief, at a book signing in Santa Cruz. I did this while getting my books autographed. He said the Forsaken are using balefire to help unravel the Pattern. That was all he'd say on it, told me the books provide enough evidence for it. At any rate I'm not sure whether or not this helps anyone's arguments as I haven't read all of them, y'all write too much. And this one by Saladdodger:
Quote:Now the bad news: I attended the Robert Jordan book signing here in Charlotte, NC tonight (11/4/05). While he was signing my books, I asked him if he could credit or discredit the theory that the Dark One charged Demandred with the task of wielding balefire in an attempt to weaken the Pattern, so that the Dark One may be have a better chance of victory at Tarmon Gai'don.

He didn't quite understand my point and asked me to explain it again. When I did, alluding to the consequences of balefire, and quoting the Dark One's asking Demandred about his willingness to use balefire for the Dark One, he quickly shook his head and gave an unequivocal no.

Anyway, that's always struck me as strange - we had two accounts saying RJ said no, that wasn't happening, and one saying there was evidence in the books for it. And the mystery got a little sharper in this book, with Moridin OBVIOUSLY wanting Rand to use it, knowing he had the Choedan Kal and Callandor, not to mention access to the True Power.

The black shadow is OBVIOUSLY the thing that followed Ishamael around in the early books, and obviously an effect of using the True Power. According to RJ at Budapest (not to mention evidence over the first three books), it's an advanced side effect of using the True Power, so the link with Moridin has to have something to do with it, more than Rand's one time True Power usage.

The ta'veren twisting having only negative effects is a product of Rand's mental state, and though I don't expect that to be completely cured after the integration, I do expect there to be an improvement. I think he will be a damn sight more in control of his mind when he shows up next.

Moridin is still a problem, but Rand now has Lews Therin's memories with no blockage whatsoever, and he now also has peace about Ilyena. She has been distracting him in a very bad way for a long time now, no matter how much he tried to suppress the memories of her, and the emotions associated with those memories.

I expect Rand to be in much better shape to deal with Moridin next time we see him. I expect him to face his mistrust of Taim the next time they meet. We might even see a brief reappearance of the voice when Rand sees Taim (or even the next time Taim is mentioned), and Rand realizing how much he mistrusted Taim all along (which would, of course, be further proof of construct theory).

Also, Rand decided NOT to destroy the Pattern, which means that even in that moment, he had some control. I would say that his own actions had more influence over that moment than Moridin, but I won't deny that the link with Moridin had some influence.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 08:40 PM
A) Rand's sometimes noticed black shadow
B) People around him feeling he radiates ominous power.
C) Rand's Tav'eren twisting having only negative effects and no positives to balance it
D) The grain all spoiling simultaneously in Bandar Eban.
E) Rand's near-insanity
F) Rand's decision to destroy the Pattern with the CK.
G) The massive erosion of barriers between past lives such that Rand remembers 1000s of his lives at once
Based on BS's most recent comments, I think we could still attribute A and B to the True Power. C, D, and possibly F are presumably due to his mental state (E). G, I think, has to do with channeling so much of the One Power while gettin' all philosophical about the Pattern itself.

JSUCamel
11-01-2009, 09:04 PM
Based on BS's most recent comments, I think we could still attribute A and B to the True Power. C, D, and possibly F are presumably due to his mental state (E). G, I think, has to do with channeling so much of the One Power while gettin' all philosophical about the Pattern itself.

I would actually argue that Cadsuane was exactly right about Rand's near-insanity. I would argue that it wasn't due to the Taint at all, but rather to the immense pressure and challenges and demands thrown on the back of a young man who is barely old enough to strike out on his own.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 09:06 PM
I would actually argue that Cadsuane was exactly right about Rand's near-insanity. I would argue that it wasn't due to the Taint at all, but rather to the immense pressure and challenges and demands thrown on the back of a young man who is barely old enough to strike out on his own.
Eh. I agree that those are major contributing factors. But there was also the fact that he has memories from a past life encroaching on his mind, and that those memories are from a man who died insane. ;)

Terez
11-01-2009, 09:09 PM
I'd say he was mad when he died, not insane. "Insane" is a legal term that means nothing other than that the defendant is incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Lews Therin before Ishamael's 'Healing' definitely qualified, but Lews Therin at the time of his death was just mad with grief. I'd say he could definitely tell the difference between right and wrong at that time...he just couldn't live with himself any more.

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 10:21 PM
(I haven't gotten TGS yes--damn you Amazon using USPS shipping!--but I couldn't hold out any longer and am now spoiler whoring, so I may misinterpret what you guys are talking about)


And the mystery got a little sharper in this book, with Moridin OBVIOUSLY wanting Rand to use it, knowing he had the Choedan Kal and Callandor, not to mention access to the True Power.

Moridin is a confirmed nihilist. We've all been operating under the assumption that as the DO's Nae'blis, Moridin's motives/goals are the same as the DO's. Perhaps we need to re-examine that assumption. I'm not sure we can call the DO a nihilist.

That may explain some of the confusion surrounding RJ's answers--Demandred may not be using balefire to unravel the Pattern--but Moridin (a Forsaken, but NOT Demandred) may for his own reasons. Of course, the RJ answers are really heresay, and not the most reliable coming from random posters, but what the heck, I'll throw it out there.

Terez
11-01-2009, 10:26 PM
Well....everyone seems to think that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, and it's not a bad assumption (since, without the Pattern, there presumably no prison and he can do whatever he wants to.

Also, why else would the Dark One order Demandred to use balefire if he didn't want the Pattern to unravel?

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 10:41 PM
Well....everyone seems to think that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, and it's not a bad assumption (since, without the Pattern, there presumably no prison and he can do whatever he wants to.
I'm not sure I believe that everyone thinks that, but it warms my heart (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=56) to hear it anyway. :D

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 10:54 PM
I believe the DO's purpose is to remake the Pattern in his/her own image, not destroy it.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 10:58 PM
I believe the DO's purpose is to remake the Pattern in his/her own image, not destroy it.
Well, pthhhhbt.

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 11:06 PM
It just seems odd that the DO would want everyone using an ability that specifically highlights a weakness of his. I know the DO asked Demandred if he would use balefire for him/her, but I don't recall the DO actually issuing that command. And from what little we know of Demandred, it sounds like his primary purpose is to gather forces of some sort, not spend his days vaporizing things.

Plus, what exactly does a free DO, with no Wheel/pattern to act on, do? Just wait for the Creator to make the next prison and start the process all over again?

If the DO was truly committed to balefiring the world out of existence, he/she should go at it full speed. Every darkfriend channeler capable of balefire would already know the weave and would be destroying things left and right.

Belazamon
11-01-2009, 11:33 PM
If the DO was truly committed to balefiring the world out of existence, he/she should go at it full speed. Every darkfriend channeler capable of balefire would already know the weave and would be destroying things left and right.
Ah, but you're forgetting that the Dark One has to work through servants. Servants who, Ishy aside, aren't interested in destroying the world they want to rule forever...Faced with the possible dissolution of existence, both sides, without formal agreement or truce, simply stopped using balefire. There was no point in winning a world if the world was utterly destroyed in the process. Even those who supported the Dark Lord wanted something left to rule.

Yuri33
11-01-2009, 11:36 PM
So why would Demandred start balefiring things? Why even ask him to?

Terez
11-02-2009, 12:13 AM
I'm not sure I believe that everyone thinks that, but it warms my heart (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=56) to hear it anyway. :D
I meant people in the books, not on Theoryland. :p

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 12:17 AM
So why would Demandred start balefiring things? Why even ask him to?
There's a difference between being willing to balefire a few things here and there, and using enough balefire to unravel the Pattern.

Yuri33
11-02-2009, 12:23 AM
I was basing my rebuttal on both yours and Terez's comments, since I thought you were both marching lockstep on this point:

Also, why else would the Dark One order Demandred to use balefire if he didn't want the Pattern to unravel?

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 11:27 AM
I was basing my rebuttal on both yours and Terez's comments, since I thought you were both marching lockstep on this point:
Heh, apparently we aren't exactly. :D

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 02:28 PM
This all makes me wonder whether Moridin's revelation to Rand about balefire and transmogrification was accidental. If the DO thought he could turn Rand evil by giving him access to the TP, he wouldn't care that much about losing a few Chosen along the way. And if it unravels the Pattern all the while, so much the better.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:38 PM
From a Shadow pov a lot of the forsaken have served their purpose. The land is divided, there is a lot of chaos etc. All the Shadow needs now is someone to lead the armies and some one to face Rand.

Given the back stabbing, plotting nature of the forsaken the more you have on the payrole there more chance that one of them will mess up the grand plan. If you can whittle their numbers down to more managable size while at the same time getting the opposition to use a weapon that damages the pattern when its already in a bad shape, that sounds like a win win situation.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 02:41 PM
From a Shadow pov a lot of the forsaken have served their purpose. The land is divided, there is a lot of chaos etc. All the Shadow needs now is someone to lead the armies and some one to face Rand.

Given the back stabbing, plotting nature of the forsaken the more you have on the payrole there more chance that one of them will mess up the grand plan. If you can whittle their numbers down to more managable size while at the same time getting the opposition to use a weapon that damages the pattern when its already in a bad shape, that sounds like a win win situation.
Yes. Then again, Graendal was apparently in the DO's favor, and look what happened to her.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:45 PM
Moridin wanted to use her to make Rand feel pain of heart. She wasn't actually 'in his favor' - that was just bait, as far as I'm concerned. But since she was slacking, Shaidar Haran took care of the job for her.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:53 PM
If the DO is going to destroy reality would he care that a servant had died when he does not need her any more? I'm not sure that being in the DO's favour gives a lot of protection.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Moridin wanted to use her to make Rand feel pain of heart. She wasn't actually 'in his favor' - that was just bait, as far as I'm concerned. But since she was slacking, Shaidar Haran took care of the job for her.
Bait for what? What did she accomplish?

If the DO is going to destroy reality would he care that a servant had died when he does not need her any more? I'm not sure that being in the DO's favour gives a lot of protection.Apparently not. I guess I should not have said "favor" as much as "usefulness." She was supposed to be doing something, and the Moridin was being encouraging.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:13 PM
Bait for what? What did she accomplish?
Bait to make her willing to do things that she would not ordinarily be willing to do (like stay in Arad Doman when she knows Rand is coming there). What she didn't accomplish has nothing to do with it - it's about what they wanted her to try to accomplish.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:23 PM
Bait to make her willing to do things that she would not ordinarily be willing to do (like stay in Arad Doman when she knows Rand is coming there). What she didn't accomplish has nothing to do with it - it's about what they wanted her to try to accomplish.
OK, I'll buy that. But it would have been nice to have something other than an extraordinarily vague idea of what that was.

In any case, her death doesn't disprove my idea that Moridin was secretly encouraging Rand to use balefire on the Chosen, so that's fine. :)

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:24 PM
I think Graendal said herself that she never intended to face Rand so Moridin's pep talk could well have been designed to encourage her to take some more risks and hang around. I believe elsewhere it was said that Grandal did not lack for courage.

Too bad for her. If she was a bit more cowardly she would probably have gated out of the fort the moment Rand's messanger showed up.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:25 PM
Not even sure why I had to explain that one - thought it was obvious. I don't mind clarifying, though.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:28 PM
Not even sure why I had to explain that one - thought it was obvious. I don't mind clarifying, though.

Because I'm in the "Graendal's death sucked" camp? Your explanation is fine, I was just hoping for more from her.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:33 PM
I suppose a long epic duel Rand v Grandal like Rand v Sammael would have been nice but Rand did not have the time and given his lack of feeling the way he handled it made sense. She never really stood a chance once she did not flee.

Plus I think it was RJ's way of showing that people who make everything complicated because they are very cleaver can be surprised by a simple straigth forward approach. Think of Perrin's way of dealing with the Game of Houses. He catches people out because he is not complicated.