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Terez
11-02-2009, 02:58 AM
Meaning Sorilea, or Bair. Only Sorilea and Bair saw where Cadsuane kept the Domination Band. It could have been Bair that betrayed them, and Shaidar Haran that nullified the weaves to fetch it. But attention was drawn earlier in the chapter to the fact that Sorilea picked up on Semirhage's bonds and blinders without even having seen them woven - Cadsuane thinks that she is a very quick learner. And Cadsuane only showed Sorilea the box to repay the debt from Sorilea showing her how to weave a gateway:

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al’Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew. Some, at least. Enough, or too much.

Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.

Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."

Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai’don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

Sorilea listened intently, and kept silent even after Cadsuane finished. Those green eyes studied her. "Your Dragon Reborn and your Last Battle are not in our prophecies," Sorilea said at last. "We have tried to make Rand al’Thor know his blood, but I fear he sees us as only another spear. If one spear breaks in your hand, you do not pause to mourn before taking up another. Perhaps you and I aim at targets not too far apart."

"Perhaps we do," Cadsuane said cautiously. Targets even a hand apart might be not at all alike.

Abruptly, the glow of saidar surrounded the leather-faced woman. She was weak enough to make Daigian look at least moderately strong. But then, Sorilea’s strength did not lie in the Power. "There is a thing you may find useful," she said. "I cannot make it work, but I can weave the flows to show you." She did just that, laying feeble skeins that fell into place and melted, too poor to do what they were intended for. "It is called Traveling," Sorilea said.

This time, Cadsuane’s jaw dropped. Alanna and Kiruna and the rest denied teaching the Wise Ones how to link, or a number of other skills they suddenly seemed to have, and Cadsuane had assumed the Aiel had managed to wring them out of the sisters held in the tents. But this was...

Impossible, she would have said, yet she did not believe Sorilea was lying. She could hardly wait to try the weave herself. Not that it was of much use immediately. Even if she knew exactly where the wretched boy was, she had to make him come to her. Sorilea was right about that. "A very great gift," she said slowly. "I have nothing I can give you to compare."

This time, there was no doubt of the brief smile that flashed across Sorilea’s lips. She knew very well that Cadsuane was in her debt. Taking up the heavy golden pitcher with both hands, she carefully filled the small white cups. With plain water. She did not spill a drop.

"I offer you water oath," she said solemnly, picking up one of the cups. "By this, we are bound as one, to teach Rand al’Thor laughter and tears." She sipped, and Cadsuane imitated her.

"We are bound as one." And if their targets turned out not to be the same at all? She did not underestimate Sorilea as ally or opponent, but Cadsuane knew which target had to be struck, at any cost.
So, is it Sorilea, or is she the red herring? We've had one short and rather unrevealing point of view from Sorilea, and none from Bair.

Why would Sorilea call in her debt just to see the Domination Band?

Incidentally, the first half of this chapter is Graendal, meeting Cyndane, Moghedien, and Shaidar Haran, and the icon is the square with the serpent weaving in and out of it.

Calharn
11-02-2009, 03:27 AM
I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.

I also had a second thought of SH coming and using his power to dissipate weaves to get to them and bring word to Elza to make her move to free Semi. But this is more wild imagination of late night reading than anything based upon fact. The main reason I thought of this was Cadsuane's pure shock at the box being broken into. Removing Cadsuane while freeing Semi and causing Rand/LTT pain could be important enough to warrant a visit from the Hand of the DO.

On the quote about Sorilea smiling I think that is more RJ showing us how Cadsuane and Sorilea match up against one another. Cadsuane mentions her as being her only "equal" she has met.

With that fact and the survival of the Aiel on depending on Rand. I believe Sorilea would consider calling in that favor to see the weapon that could destroy Rand (and therefore the Aiel remnant) a fair trade.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:32 AM
I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.
Nobody knew where it was. It was Cadsuane's secret, only shared with Sorilea and Bair.

Anaiya Sedai
11-02-2009, 03:56 AM
I'd have to re-read the passage, but my gutfeeling was that it was Shaidar Haran who must have somehow found out where it was. That guy knows everything anyway..
Sorilea never struck me as a darkfriend, and neither did Bair. The scene with Semirhage, to me, confirmed that feeling.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:58 AM
That was my gut feeling as well, but this is a big discussion over at 13th depository right now, so I figured I'd bring it here. The Sorilea idea does have merits, despite her appearing to be on the right team. Bair....there's nothing to support it, but nothing to really contradict the idea, either.

Anaiya Sedai
11-02-2009, 04:06 AM
The main reason I don't think either of them are darkfriends is their very strong sense of honour.
And the fact that it said in one of the earlier Aiel chapters (before that Aiel DF tries to kill Mat, I think), that DFs amongst Aiel are rare.
Past actions of the two wise ones don't really speak for either of them being darkfriends, either.

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:25 AM
The main reason I don't think either of them are darkfriends is their very strong sense of honour.
Melindhra had a strong sense of honor as well. I think all Aiel probably do, except the Shaido, lol...

And the fact that it said in one of the earlier Aiel chapters (before that Aiel DF tries to kill Mat, I think), that DFs amongst Aiel are rare.
I don't recall that, and I tried to find it without any luck. I remember that Darkfriends are rare among the sul'dam (perhaps because it is one of the highest positions in society, so there's no incentive to try to get higher because there is no possibility for sul'dam to do anything differently), and we also have the assumption that there are no Darkfriends among the Kin because the Black Ajah was unaware of them.

Past actions of the two wise ones don't really speak for either of them being darkfriends, either.
I don't know that they really speak against. We've had Darkfriends before that seemed like good people until we got to know them better.

Tercel
11-02-2009, 04:29 AM
I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.As I read, I assumed that Elza had spied on Cadsuane and learned where she put the domination band. Semirhage would have no trouble removing Cadsuance's weaves unless they were inverted... which I don't recall.

But at the time of reading I did have a twinge of "it's awfully suspicious that Sorilea and Bair just asked Cadsuane to tell them where it was".

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:34 AM
Yes, that's the strangest part about it. And it was Sorilea that asked, and it was clear from the scene that she was calling in her debt for teaching Cadsuane. A very strange thing to call it in for.

That being said, it's really hard to see her as a Darkfriend.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 04:44 AM
I don't like this idea. I now want to transfer that dislike to you Terez, for making me think it is likely. you are mean. I do think you're wrong though.

I assumed that it was SH who got the DB, he probly walked into Casduane's room, sensed the evil of the DB, turned on his anti-magic field and then opened the box. Or he could've searched the trunk first, it's not like she had so many hiding spots.

I don't think Sorilea was so much calling in her favor as just expecting to be obeyed. did i miss anything?

Terez
11-02-2009, 04:59 AM
I do think you're wrong though.
About what?

I don't think Sorilea was so much calling in her favor as just expecting to be obeyed. did i miss anything?

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 14 - A Box Opens

Sorilea did not seem convinced, but she pressed the issue no further. "And the item?" she asked. "May I see it?"

Cadsuane almost snapped a no. But . . . Sorilea had taught Cadsuane Traveling, and incredibly powerful tool. That had been an offering, a hand extended. Cadsuane needed to work with these women, Sorilea most of all. Al'Thor was a bigger project than one woman could handle.
Why even ask to see it?

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 06:06 AM
Let me apologize, rereading my prior post now it's more offensive than cute.

and I actually meant wrong about either of them being DF's, but you just asked the Q, you didn't assert anything....

As to calling in the favor, it's CS who decides to weigh showing the DB against learning traveling. Yes, Sorilea asks to see it, but she's used to having her curiosity indulged. She could've just wanted to know what to keep an eye out for in case there's another floating around she could be all, "oh no you don't!" instead of, "I wonder why someone would wear such an ugly bracelet or carry such a necklace."

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 06:48 AM
Melindhra had a strong sense of honor as well. I think all Aiel probably do, except the Shaido, lol...

I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.

I really do not see that of either of those two, but Sorilea the least. There are any number of ways that Semi could have gotten the bands. However, I think the simplest explanation would be that one of them was a DF.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 06:52 AM
I love it. It'd be very interesting if its true.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 10:19 AM
It might have been common knowledge among the Aes Sedai that Cadsuane had kept a male a'dam close to her. Everyone probably knew that she wanted to test the male a'dam on the Asha'man (she said she had asked Rand about it), like she had tested the a'dam on herself. Everyone knew she had all of the ter'angreal recovered from Semirhage. Even the Wise Ones knew to ask.
So where does she have them? Under her dress? No. In her room is the next place to look. That she stashed Callandor with friends far away, but if Shaidar Haran only knew that she had kept one male a'dam with her, it was enough for him to find it at will I should think. He then gave it to Elza who waited with it for Semirhage.

I do agree though, that Shaidar Haran wouldn't go and initiate this rescue of Semirhage unless he was sure to get hold of The Domination Band. That is, if he was sure that Cadsuane had kept one with her. He doesn't need to know exactly where in the camp it is, that is obvious.

I did not at all get the feeling that Sorilea was calling in the favor gained for showing Travelling. She just thought that it was a small request that should be well within the terms of them working together. Cadsuane recognised that if she denied Sorilea this simple request (which in no way compares to the gift of Travelling of course, which Cadsuane, Sorilea and we know), she would jeapordise her trust/working relationship with Sorilea. It is clear that Sorilea did not want to trade Travelling for seeing the Sad Bracelets alone and call it even. Possibly she expect that seeing them along with a dozen other small favors would compare to Travelling.

If anything I think it is strange that Cadsuane would hesitate showing this to Sorilea, it's such a simple request.

Sorilea and Bair comments on that it is unwise to keep something so dangerous to the Car'a'carn so close to him. And they are right about that. Which is reason enough to ask to see it. Cadsuane wants to test it because it is dangerous and; Bair thinks that testing with it is evil, Sorilea appearantly agrees with Cadsuane that it would be useful to test it on some of the men.

Terez
11-02-2009, 11:58 AM
I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.
Yeah, but she wasn't with the Shaido when they started abandoning ji'e'toh, which was the point.

Wunderwaffe
11-02-2009, 12:02 PM
I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.

I really do not see that of either of those two, but Sorilea the least. There are any number of ways that Semi could have gotten the bands. However, I think the simplest explanation would be that one of them was a DF.

She was a Maiden of the Spear. That takes precedence over her clan, sept. Maidens are perhaps the most prickly about their honor in the entire Aiel society. You will recall how the Car'a'carn was, at times, guarded by Maidens of the Shaido -- his enemies. It doesn't matter that Melindhra was Shaido. She was a Maiden. As such, she was honorable.

thisiscooling
11-02-2009, 12:03 PM
Could Elza have used Compulsion on Sorilea or Bair?

One Armed Gimp
11-02-2009, 01:30 PM
She was a Maiden. As such, she was honorable.

My point was not that she wasn't honorable, just that he made a contradiction.

Wunderwaffe
11-02-2009, 01:33 PM
My point was not that she wasn't honorable, just that he made a contradiction.

Terez is actually a she. ;)

4Alethinos
11-02-2009, 01:38 PM
Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel. They had this interesting tendency to kill strangers. They were also outside what most thought were the main locations of power. They were not considered to be useful.

We see the Aes Sedai riddled with Black Ajah. The total numbers are staggering to me. Over 60 in the SAS and over 80 in the WT. With who knows how many who were not in either location. The AS with the Borderlander army, clearly being led by Demandred, are also going to be Black Ajah every one.

I doubt the Black status of either Sorilea or Bair. Shadar Haran being on the scene is enough to gain access. This does suggest that someone other than Elza who is close to Cadsuane is Black.

"Suspicions can be deadly. Bring on the Oath Rod."

Terez
11-02-2009, 01:41 PM
Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel.
So far as I know, this is not actually true.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 03:40 PM
Thanks, 1Powerslave, for saying everything I was trying to, but more eloquently.

I thought I recognized one of the BA names on Verin's List as being someone (besides Elza) in Rand's orbit but have been too busy/lazy to check.

I don't see why Elza was compelled at all, is this idea talked about elsewhere? I was puzzled by that while reading and I sort of thought maybe Graendal did it, but SH's involvement makes me wonder why any other high level evil needs to be part of it (besides Semi.)

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 04:34 PM
That was my gut feeling as well, but this is a big discussion over at 13th depository right now, so I figured I'd bring it here. The Sorilea idea does have merits, despite her appearing to be on the right team. Bair....there's nothing to support it, but nothing to really contradict the idea, either.

Well, if Sorilea was a darkfriend why did she work with Verin Sedai in openly passing off a Sleeping potion which if used incorrectly can kill easily?

The point being Sorilea by that time, was unsure of Cadsuane's intentions towards Rand possibly, and gave Verin the option of killing Cadsuane if necessary by poisoning her.

Verin had gained a debt from Sorilea, in passing information how to shame the captured unsworn Aes Sedai from the White Tower...which Verin later used to investigate each one of them possible except for Katerine. Verin later complained of sleeping difficulties and headaches. That's one reason Verin get that sleeping potion, err poison from Sorilea. The question in my mind, is did Sorilea know the true intent of use for the sleeping potion? I think so, yes, she did know the real intention. How is this? Because there are far less poisonous substitutes available a Wise One like Sorilea could of gave instead of the one that almost killed Cadsuane by Verin's own hand.

Sorilea didn't fully trust Cadsuane at all, in KoD book, in fact Sorilea and Cadsuane's views were in conflict in Cairhien. Who's to be the next leader of Cairhien? This can be seen in the proxy fight between Sashalle and Samitsu; Sashalle is a Wise One & an Aes Sedai who supports Sorilea and the Dragon Reborn intentions; while Samitsu supports Cadsuane views of the situation.

Neither Sorilea nor Cadsuane are darkfriends, they just have conflicting views about how the Dragon Reborn and his role, his powers of control. Yet the only darkfriend here, was Verin Sedai who used both Cadsuane, Sorilea for her own goals.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 04:42 PM
I thought I recognized one of the BA names on Verin's List as being someone (besides Elza) in Rand's orbit but have been too busy/lazy to check.

All the Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to captured Rand in Cairhien, might be in fact Black Ajah. Some of the sisters were in Arad Doman and later Tear, as part of Rand's party of followers. Rand's in danger, as the Dark One has learned his followers have been manipulated by Compulsion...meaning Beldeine Nyram loyalty is uncertain, she might be a Black Ajah.


I don't see why Elza was compelled at all, is this idea talked about elsewhere? I was puzzled by that while reading and I sort of thought maybe Graendal did it, but SH's involvement makes me wonder why any other high level evil needs to be part of it (besides Semi.)

Verin Sedai used Compulsion on the captured Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to Cairhien (see TPoD,Prologue for that scene). That compulsion is why all those sister sworn to follow Rand, weeks, months after being captured. That compulsion put in place by Verin, might be able to be removed via the TAR for all we know??

Graendal did not put compulsion on Elza, that was Verin, in this case.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 05:18 PM
"Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel." --4A
So far as I know, this is not actually true.
It sounds familiar. Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel.

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:23 PM
Well, maybe someone can find a quote then. :)

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 05:30 PM
Well, maybe someone can find a quote then. :)
Hey, I'm not the Quote Mistress. :)

Xelun
11-02-2009, 06:47 PM
“It is Jaichim Carridin who interests me,” Aviendha said, closing the book and setting it beside her. She refused to consider how odd she looked, sitting on the floor in a blue silk dress. “Among us, Shadowrunners are killed as soon as found, and not clan, sept, society or first-sister will raise a hand in protest. If Jaichim Carridin is a Shadowrunner, why does Tylin Mitsobar not kill him? Why do we not?”

I found this in reference to Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel. I can't remember if this is the quote that originally caused that impression for me, but it was the best I could find.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 07:54 PM
How do you quantify "rare" in a poulation of six million or more? Or among 500 channelers per clan?

But sorilea being DF seems a little farfetched. She wouldn't have lived so long if she was. Something about occupational hazards that I don't recall clearly.

Terez
11-02-2009, 08:36 PM
Hey, I'm not the Quote Mistress. :)
I already looked, and didn't find one. I found Xelun's quote, but it doesn't even imply that Darkfriends are rare among the Aiel - just says they're killed as soon as they are discovered.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
Felix- am i understanding that Verin compelled Elza to help Semi?

who buys that?

As to Aiel DF's, I could see instant death being a small deterrent to the ranks.

In the wetlands, DF's are feared, and there're a couple of ways one could turn capture into victory. But death is death, it doesn't really turn into anything else.

I don't remember anything directly indicating rareness, only the constant threat of death from everything making a culture less conducive to DF's.
I always figured the % was about equal with Borderlander DF's

nameless
11-02-2009, 09:57 PM
If it weren't for Shaidar Haran's involvement I'd say you were on to something. As it is we know Fades can smell the One Power, so Cadsuane's convoluted traps probably led him right to the thing. Although there's no evidence yet that he can smell inverted weaves the same as regular weaves...

tworiverswoman
11-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Felix- am i understanding that Verin compelled Elza to help Semi?

who buys that?Hiya, LB -- it's nice to see you here again :)

And no - you've got it mixed up. After Dumai's Wells -- Rand's rescue from "the box" -- Verin spent quite a bit of time with the captured Aes Sedai after they'd been turned over to the Aiel. During her visits, she laid a home-made version of compulsion on each of them, which caused them all to swear fealty to Rand, eventually.

When Shadar Haran freed Semirage in Chapter 22 of TGS, she exited her cell to find Elza (one of the ones Verin treated that way) kneeling and swearing service to her. Elza then said "I am instructed to tell you that there is Compulsion in my mind you are to remove." When next you see her, she looks like someone has hit her in the back of the head with a board. But she's still sane and functional. (As much as a Darkfriend CAN be sane...)

As a minor grumbly aside -- how did the Forsaken actually know anything about the Sad Bracelets, anyway? They were made DURING THE BREAKING, when all of the Forsaken (except MAYBE Ishamael) were in Time Stop inside the Dark One's prison. And yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 10:47 PM
... yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Moggy explained her knowledge to Nyneave; she spent the first months of her freedom researching what had happened in the last 3,000 years and discovered the history of them. Moggy's paranoia or deliberate deception skewed her explanation a bit when she implied they were to be used by one woman but could be used by two if they trusted each other.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Thanks for answering clearly Lord Bloodpath question, tworiverswoman. :)

As a minor grumbly aside -- how did the Forsaken actually know anything about the Sad Bracelets, anyway? They were made DURING THE BREAKING, when all of the Forsaken (except MAYBE Ishamael) were in Time Stop inside the Dark One's prison. And yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Semirhage could of learned of them from one of the Black Ajah after being released from the Bore. Liandrin, Temaile, Eldrith Jhondar knew of them at the very least, maybe from Mesaana in the White Tower who was in her faction?

Yet Semirhage mentions (in tGS) past use of the Domination Bands but she leaves out when that was. :rolleyes:

I doubt Ishamael's original plans involved the use of the sad bracelets on Rand. Ishamael tried the bullying and information warfare methods first.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 04:20 AM
Moghedien suggested that she had found some scraps of paper which provided information on the DB. That may or may not have been the truth, but all things considered, she didn't have any reason to lie at the time. She was trying to distract Nynaeve, and telling lies during a battle is not a good idea when it may see you confused as a result of trying to keep your story straight.

Semirage is actually a lot easier still: she had been in control of the things for days, weeks or maybe even months. All it would have required for her was one male channeler (easily borrowed from the BT if you're a Chosen) and some time to experiment.

1Powerslave
11-03-2009, 08:51 AM
Moghedien suggested that she had found some scraps of paper which provided information on the DB. That may or may not have been the truth, but all things considered, she didn't have any reason to lie at the time. She was trying to distract Nynaeve, and telling lies during a battle is not a good idea when it may see you confused as a result of trying to keep your story straight.

Semirage is actually a lot easier still: she had been in control of the things for days, weeks or maybe even months. All it would have required for her was one male channeler (easily borrowed from the BT if you're a Chosen) and some time to experiment.
Yeah, didn't Semirhage say that she had studied The Domination Band in this age, referring as well to her time with the Seanchan and her experience with the a'dam.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Come to think of it: Semirage could even have used a male channeler that she wouldn't have to return in one piece. All it would have taken is for Taim to hand a "runaway" over to her, and all he would need back eventually is the head so that he can hang it in his tree.

Anaiya Sedai
11-03-2009, 09:56 AM
Terez, I'll have a look through the books some time (when Veloscaraptor gives me a break long enough) and will try to find you the quote that gave me that impression.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 10:06 AM
All right, back to the original topic: who betrayed whom. Specifically, of course: who betrayed Rand's trust in Cadsuane.

Another, less minor, aside: how did Elza know that she had been Compelled? It is of course possible that Verin had reported using this, but it seems to me that she was doing it to help the DR, as part of her "I do not want to be BA" campaign. So it seems unlikely that she would have told this.
Which raises the question: who was good enough at Delving to figure out that Elza was a victim of Compulsion?

Find that one, and I think that we're quite a bit closer to knowing who stole the Domination Band as well.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 10:14 AM
All right, back to the original topic: who betrayed whom. Specifically, of course: who betrayed Rand's trust in Cadsuane.

Another, less minor, aside: how did Elza know that she had been Compelled? It is of course possible that Verin had reported using this, but it seems to me that she was doing it to help the DR, as part of her "I do not want to be BA" campaign. So it seems unlikely that she would have told this.
Which raises the question: who was good enough at Delving to figure out that Elza was a victim of Compulsion?

Find that one, and I think that we're quite a bit closer to knowing who stole the Domination Band as well.

Well OBVIOUSLY, Shaidar Haran told Elza to tell Semi about the compulsion. He likely delved her himself. I thought that was a given.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 10:41 AM
I am not at all sure that SH did that. Might be, of course, but if he could do that, then why didn't he simply remove the problem too?

According to Verin, noticing the Compulsion would take a lot of skill. Removing it probably did not take all that much more skill, only the knowledge of how to do it in the first place. Which LTT had (and gave to Nynaeve), and Semirage undoubtedly knew it too. I think that SH also knew this.
So, if he had been able to detect it, then he would have removed the Compulsion. The fact that someone could detect it but could not remove it strongly suggests a Third Ager to me. One skilled at Healing, of course.

lurk
11-03-2009, 10:43 AM
IIRC Moggy tells the wondergirls how the sad bracelets work. She even tells that the women will go mad while trying to control a man channeling tainted saidin.

That must have been in Tanchico I think...

Davian93
11-03-2009, 10:48 AM
I am not at all sure that SH did that. Might be, of course, but if he could do that, then why didn't he simply remove the problem too?

According to Verin, noticing the Compulsion would take a lot of skill. Removing it probably did not take all that much more skill, only the knowledge of how to do it in the first place. Which LTT had (and gave to Nynaeve), and Semirage undoubtedly knew it too. I think that SH also knew this.
So, if he had been able to detect it, then he would have removed the Compulsion. The fact that someone could detect it but could not remove it strongly suggests a Third Ager to me. One skilled at Healing, of course.

Maybe Shaidar Haran realized that Semi would be better at removing it as she would be using Saidar to remove a saidar compulsion web. Touching Elza with the TP might kill her.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 12:24 PM
I found this in reference to Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel. I can't remember if this is the quote that originally caused that impression for me, but it was the best I could find.
Apparently Black Ajah would be executed too, if found, and there were plenty of those.

Aiel are already good at hiding.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Maybe Shaidar Haran realized that Semi would be better at removing it as she would be using Saidar to remove a saidar compulsion web. Touching Elza with the TP might kill her.
This is what I think happened. It's tough, because Shaidar Haran seems to have abilities above and beyond anything else we've seen, but I would be surprised if he couldn't effectively remove saidar-Compulsion himself.

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 02:08 PM
This is what I think happened. It's tough, because Shaidar Haran seems to have abilities above and beyond anything else we've seen, but I would be surprised if he couldn't effectively remove saidar-Compulsion himself.
More to the point, SH's form of "removing" the Compulsion would be a brute-force approach. And as we've been told several times, usually in Graendal-centric storylines, doing it that way is most likely to leave the person a vegetable.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 02:56 PM
More to the point, SH's form of "removing" the Compulsion would be a brute-force approach. And as we've been told several times, usually in Graendal-centric storylines, doing it that way is most likely to leave the person a vegetable.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Calharn
11-04-2009, 01:05 AM
So if I understand most of the posts it is a fair statement to say there is strong support for SH being the mastermind of the incident. Support as in opinion.... not proof..

I myself lean towards SH being behind it, with Semi removing the compulsion.

But is there any evidence of SH having a hand in this? besides our faith in Cadsuane's abilities to ward and our minimal knowledge of SH's powers. I've looked myself and can't find anything that points to SH or anyone else for that matter.... Especially not Bair or Sorilea...

tworiverswoman
11-04-2009, 08:25 PM
Well... given that SH is the one that came to Semi in her cell, there's no question that he "had a hand in this." I have no real problem accepting that he was in command from start to finish.

And I quite agree with Davian and SDog/Crispy -- SH is the MOST likely one to have spotted the Compulsion, and instructed Elza to tell Semi to 'get rid of it.' I have no idea if he could have done it himself or not, but I suspect he's too important to mess about with mere details like that. Or too ham-fisted. I don't know if The Dark One is CAPABLE of a "delicate" touch. It would be like someone with 10-inch razor-sharp talons trying to turn a page without tearing it. POSSIBLE, but more trouble than it's worth.

We know absolutely nothing about SH's powers, other than the few things we've seen. He can shield channellers without them being able to feel the shield, he can use the Myrrddrahl trick of translocation via shadow, he has a nasty sense of humor, he can rape, and he can travel the path to the lava pool without getting his head scratched.

Being able to sense the sad bracelets through Cadsuane's concealment? I have no difficulty with this.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 04:19 AM
Would SH have left Cadsuane/Rand in control of the CK, though?

Davian93
11-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Would SH have left Cadsuane/Rand in control of the CK, though?

Probably, its not really a threat to him...besides he WANTS Rand to use large amounts of balefire and that is the best way to do it. He basically got the Dragon all liquored up and then handed him a loaded pistol.

Terez
07-05-2010, 04:22 PM
I posted a theory about this on the home page. Would be nice if some of you went over there to discuss it (to make Tam happy of course). There are some important points in the comments that you might want to read too.

Also, in reference to the last few comments on this thread (which I missed), Brandon implies that Shaidar Haran only has power over Darkfriends (which explains why we never see him around Lightfriends). He most likely couldn't have determined the location of the Domination Band without help, if for no other reason than that it was in Cadsuane's room, and she is a Lightfriend.

nameless
07-05-2010, 06:57 PM
His superpowers might not work in Cadsuane's room but his regular Fade powers probably did and every Fade can smell the One Power, which the Domination Band was smothered with at the time. There's no evidence either way to say whether or not they can still smell inverted weaves, though.

Terez
07-05-2010, 07:28 PM
Big difference between smelling the Power and knowing what's under it.

Neilbert
07-06-2010, 01:47 AM
Who cares though? A little skulking around, a little from Semirhage, a little from Elza, not hard to figure out what's in the box.

I don't think there are too many one power locked boxes around. Shaidar Haran doesn't exactly have to guess.

He most likely couldn't have determined the location of the Domination Band without help, if for no other reason than that it was in Cadsuane's room, and she is a Lightfriend.

He's a vampire now?

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2010, 03:29 AM
He's a vampire now?Just like Count Dracula, he does have a way with the ladies, doesn't he?

Davian93
07-06-2010, 01:06 PM
Yes, that's the strangest part about it. And it was Sorilea that asked, and it was clear from the scene that she was calling in her debt for teaching Cadsuane. A very strange thing to call it in for.

That being said, it's really hard to see her as a Darkfriend.

Really? I could see it. Someone close to Rand (not named Elza) has to be one. Otherwise, this story is far to close to Eddings.

Terez
07-06-2010, 01:44 PM
It was hard to see at first, but now I'm convinced. That quote was from last year. :p And it had more to do with her personality than any idea about how many unrevealed Darkfriends there should be around Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2010, 04:09 AM
And it had more to do with her personality than any idea about how many unrevealed Darkfriends there should be around Rand.She's a strong woman, so obviously she's evil. :p

Toss the dice
07-08-2010, 11:55 AM
I always assumed Shaidar Haran freed Semirhage and then left. And that Semirhage did everything else, from locating the box to opening it to retrieve the bracelets, after killing the sisters standing guard, then taking Elza with her.

I wouldn't count it very improbable that Semirhage would possibly take a look around Cadsuane's room for anything that could be of use, whether it be angreal, information, or whatever. She stumbles across a warded box or simply finds the box and discovers it is warded. Being an AOL Forsaken with vastly more knowledge, skill, and considerably more strength in the Power than Cadsuane herself, she has no problem with the warded box and opens it to find the sad bracelets.

In this same vein of thinking, SH could have told Semirhage about the sad bracelets before he left, although I think that's highly unlikely bordering on impossible due to Rand getting access to the TP to escape. Because of this, I also find it unlikely that Shaidar Haran would open the box.

Maybe Semirhage found the box on her own or she could have learned about it from Elza or another DF, including Sorilea. While I personally believe Sorilea is not a Darkfriend, it is possible. All the quotes given in this thread really only say that it is possible, but that's true for many "good" characters. Sorilea being a DF could be very interesting.

If there is something wrong with what i've said (as in something simply can't be), let me know. I am basing this off of slightly fuzzy memory.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2010, 12:06 PM
I always assumed Shaidar Haran freed Semirhage and then left. And that Semirhage did everything else, from locating the box to opening it to retrieve the bracelets, after killing the sisters standing guard, then taking Elza with her.When Semirhage left the room in which she was imprisoned, outside she found three corpses (the women who had been shielding her). Also outside was Elza, kneeling, who informed her of the Compulsion and gave her the E've.

So Semirhage didn't have to search for it, and she did not have to go into Cadsuane's room for it. Someone else had already done that. And she hadn't killed the AS who were guarding her either.

Toss the dice
07-08-2010, 12:11 PM
When Semirhage left the room in which she was imprisoned, outside she found three corpses (the women who had been shielding her). Also outside was Elza, kneeling, who informed her of the Compulsion and gave her the E've.

So Semirhage didn't have to search for it, and she did not have to go into Cadsuane's room for it. Someone else had already done that. And she hadn't killed the AS who were guarding her either.

Thanks for the straight of it. :)

PS You just killed my entire post.

Casabamelon
07-08-2010, 02:25 PM
In this same vein of thinking, SH could have told Semirhage about the sad bracelets before he left, although I think that's highly unlikely bordering on impossible due to Rand getting access to the TP to escape. Because of this, I also find it unlikely that Shaidar Haran would open the box.


I know I'm not alone in theorizing that the whole point of getting the sad braclets to Semi was the Dark One knowing of Rand's connection to Moridin and the fact that the ONLY way Rand could free himself from the bracelets was the TP. So, either Rand doesn't tap into the TP and he's a freak on a leash, or he does, and he now has touched the Dark One.

Win-Win for the Dark One.
________
BODY SCIENCE (http://bodyscience.ws/)

greatwolf
07-08-2010, 03:35 PM
If its the DO's idea, then he's banking on something he might know enough about. That link was created by the pattern. At least the response to BF is by the pattern not the DO.

Casabamelon
07-08-2010, 03:52 PM
If its the DO's idea, then he's banking on something he might know enough about. That link was created by the pattern. At least the response to BF is by the pattern not the DO.

I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.
________
Shower porn (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/37/shower/videos/1)

Sukoto
07-08-2010, 08:00 PM
When Semirhage left the room in which she was imprisoned, outside she found three corpses (the women who had been shielding her). Also outside was Elza, kneeling, who informed her of the Compulsion and gave her the E've.

So Semirhage didn't have to search for it, and she did not have to go into Cadsuane's room for it. Someone else had already done that. And she hadn't killed the AS who were guarding her either.
It is also important to note that there was only one corpse, not three. Daigian was dead, Corel and Nesune were in a trance and only looked dead. Neither Merise nor Narishma could see remnants of weaves.

So, here are some questions that might be interesting to speculate on:

Who put Nesune and Corele in a trance?
Who put Compulsion on Elza?

The answer to both of these questions is certainly not Sorilea. Neither is it likely that another Black sister is the culprit. A Black sister wouldn't know how to weave Compulsion unless one of the Forsaken had taught her, which is a complicated scenario at best and doesn't make much sense (see Liandrin vs. Moghedien).

Do these two events make us want to re-think SH's ability to act on non-Darkfriends? The way the trance is described makes it seem like it might not have been done with the OP. The part where Merise talks about not being able to see remnants of weaves seems intended to lead us to believe that SH did it. Of course, maybe you could argue that the weaves were inverted, and then everyone could argue about the meaning of remnants, residues, inverted weaves, what you can and cannot see/detect/sense, etc, etc.

Anyway, the above questions are, for me, the two points that could rule out the possibility of Sorilea being a DF.

Kimon
07-08-2010, 09:03 PM
Who put Compulsion on Elza?



Verin

Terez
07-08-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.
This is a standard reaction to vardene's posts.

greatwolf
07-09-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.

Well, most of us beleive the link between Rand and Moridin came as a result of BF. But BF itself doesn't create links! BF will erase whatever is in its path from the pattern.But that would leave a vacuum. Its that vacuum that the pattern rushes to fill in, to keep things (the weaving I suppose) intact.

To repeat the oft used example, when Moggyu BFed Nynaeve's boat in aCoS, she burned the rowers and a piece of the boat out of the pattern for a few minutes. So they haven't been in existence those few minutes and all sorts of consequences occur as a result.

1. The boat ends up behind the boat that was following it instantaneously.

2. The boat is in twobits at the point where it reappears, both halves sinking.

3. The occupant is in water and already taking in water, same for the bits of the boat.

All happened instantaneously.

And all beyond the DO's ability to influence. It all happened beforehe was aware of it. Minutes ago.

The BF has removed a couple of stitches from the weaving. The pattern patches it up immediately, doing what the DO cannot do - reach backwards in time to maintain the present.

Because the restructuring after a BF event is done by the pattern rather than the DO, it will be restructured to the pattern's goals and benefit not the DO's.

So why did the pattern allow the link to come about in the first place? (Remember the link was apparently predicted by Min) We don't know except that it won't be for the DO's benefit.

There's this feeling you get in chess when you know you're going to fall into the other guy's trap and you just for the life of you can't tell what he's up to.

If I were the DO, I'd kill Moridn to get him out of that link fast.

This is a standard reaction to vardene's posts.

I always try to cut it into soft bits for you dear.

Sukoto
07-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Verin
I don't think Verin's "Compulsion" is what Elza was referring to when she was talking to Semi. It seems more likely that someone put more powerful Compulsion on her mind right before Semi was freed and gave her the set of orders that she carried out, i.e. "I was instructed to tell you that there is Compulsion in my mind that you are to remove... I was also instructed to give you this (DB)."

Terez
07-09-2010, 09:25 PM
I don't think Verin's "Compulsion" is what Elza was referring to when she was talking to Semi.
Brandon confirmed that it was. I also had the same impression as you at first, though.

Terez
07-09-2010, 09:27 PM
I always try to cut it into soft bits for you dear.
Thanks. I think I scared everyone else away so I've been clicking 'view post' a lot lately (as I'm sure you've noticed). How is it that you managed to find the ugliest wolf picture on the internet for your avatar?

Sukoto
07-09-2010, 11:44 PM
Brandon confirmed that it was. I also had the same impression as you at first, though.

Stupid interviews. They ruin everything.

greatwolf
07-10-2010, 06:54 PM
Thanks. I think I scared everyone else away so I've been clicking 'view post' a lot lately (as I'm sure you've noticed). How is it that you managed to find the ugliest wolf picture on the internet for your avatar?


Maybe you could try cutting the noobs some slack. Everyone can't be Terez. Most of the good avatars seem to be bigger than size limit allowed here. But it'll probably change soon.

E:Your avatar is er, em, well a little scary. Is it a mother troll?

Terez
07-10-2010, 08:50 PM
You can't claim to be a noob any more! Also, my avatar is a happyspider. It's supposed to be scary.

greatwolf
07-11-2010, 07:04 AM
You can't claim to be a noob any more! Also, my avatar is a happyspider. It's supposed to be scary.

lol. What do you have in common with moghedien? :p

GonzoTheGreat
07-11-2010, 11:05 AM
lol. What do you have in common with moghedien? :pShe's stealthy, pretty, doesn't appear to be capable of channeling and turns up on short notice in strange cities. Those things all apply to Moghedien, as you should know.

Terez
07-11-2010, 07:26 PM
I am a small, harmless spider, thankyouverymuch.

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 07:12 AM
I am a small, harmless spider, thankyouverymuch.

Why does your avatar look like the unfortuate sister of ahhh ... Jabba the Hut rather than a harmless spider?




http://www.timelineuniverse.net/images/jabbathehutt.jpg


It gets ughhhh...uglier....

"Jabba the Hutt Totally Looks Like This Entree"
http://totallylookslike.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/jabba-the-hutt-totally-looks-like-this-entree.jpg


Strange isn't what one comes across when Googling about harmless spiders, Terez?

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/2/2/633691524861450860-lolspider.jpg




Why not use a real spider instead as an avatar, Terez?


Perhaps a Lady Bird Spider (http://www.arkive.org/ladybird-spider/eresus-sandaliatus/info.html) as an avatar?

http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/photos/krasensky/lady-bird-spider-0107.jpg


Now that's a nice looking spider! =o)



This Goliath Tarantula isn't exactly on the small side of the scale, however they are quite neat to observe.

http://www.strangeark.com/blog/uploaded_images/svSPIDER_narrowweb__300x385,0-720229.jpg





Is Moghedien basically a 'Goliath Tarantula'?
Here's a short National Geographic video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LmyyXcE6rw&feature=player_embedded) of a 'Goliath Tarantula' in action.



Or maybe Moghedien is a 'Wolf Spider'?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Wolf_spider_attack_position.jpg/250px-Wolf_spider_attack_position.jpg

Moghedien did like to hide items of the power after all, like this 'Wolf Spider' seems to have done in this tunnel.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Wolf_spider_tunnel.jpg


Or perhaps Moghedien is more like this cute 'Radio Control Goliath Tarantula' now in Moridin's eyes? :D

http://img.shinyshack.com/l_tarantula1.jpg

You too, can purchase a Moghedien clone for only £24.99 at ShinyShack.com (http://www.shinyshack.com/product.php?prid=211232) :eek: :rolleyes:




lol. What do you have in common with moghedien? :p

Terez's fires within can create 'balefire' in the forums, greatwolf ;)



http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/4_mar07/_fire_breathing_jumping_spider_robot_1.jpg


As is in, what was the original topic of this thread before everyone started talking about avatars again? :)


Something about '****** being a Darkfriends' was it?


Or is that only a distant memory? ;)



--------------------------------------------------





What else does Moghedien, Spiders have in common? Perhaps Terez too?


Each seems to have an active dislike of mice, and Valan Luca. :D


Goliath Tarantula are known to eat mice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES50zZnCR34&feature=player_embedded). Moghedien perhaps is a Goliath Tarantula, and Valan Luca has elements of the Hindu deity Ganesha within his character, in particular the ironic mouse found at Ganesha's feet.



Here's to "The Mouse" in many of the major characters:


#1. Doesn't the character who almost everyone love, Mat Cauthon have a bit of a mouse within himself too?

Be’lal. Mat shivered. He had heard that name last night, and he did not like it any more in daylight. If he had known one of the Forsaken was loose—and inside the Stone—he would never have gone near the place. He glanced at Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne. Well, I’d have come in like a bloody mouse, anyway, not thumping people left and right!

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 “People of the Dragon” – Mat point of view, with Rhuarc, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene in the Stone

#2. Even the savior character of Rand al'Thor has a bit of mouse within himself:

“We need the cart,” he said gently. “And blankets.” He was shocked at how easily he pulled his father’s hand from his sleeve. “Rest, and I’ll be back.”

“Careful,” Tam breathed.

He could not see Tam’s face in the moonlight, but he could feel his eyes on him. “I will be.” As careful as a mouse exploring a hawk’s nest, he thought.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 5 "Winternight" - Rand al'Thor point of view with Tam al'Thor

Though Rand seems to have perhaps lost his 'inner mouse' in the eyes of Egwene al'Vere, by the time he meets with Coiren's embassy later in the series (LoC, Chapter 27).



3. Even one future Queen has been called a mouse. Nynaeve.

Lan stopped his pacing. “You think the Halfmen heading south have them?”

“Perhaps.” Moiraine poured herself a cup of tea before going on. “But I will not admit the possibility of them being dead. I cannot. I dare not. You know how much is at stake. I must have those young men. That Shayol Ghul will hunt them, I expect. Opposition from within the White Tower, even from the Amyrlin Seat, I accept. There are always Aes Sedai who will accept only one solution. But . . . ” Suddenly she put her cup down and sat up straight, grimacing. “If you watch the wolf too hard,” she muttered, “a mouse will bite you on the ankle.” And she looked right at the tree behind which Nynaeve was hiding.
“Mistress al’Meara, you may come out now, if you wish.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" - Nynaeve point of view with Moiraine & Lan


4. Perhaps even a current Amyrlin Seat has a mouse within her character?

Egwene.

She stared down at her dress, blue silk sewn with pearls, all dusty and torn. Her head came up, and she took in the ruins of a great palace around her. The Royal Palace of Andor, in Caemlyn. She knew that, and wanted to scream.

The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.

The world was not the way she wanted it, no way that she could think of without wanting to cry, but all her tears had been cried away long ago, and the world was as it was. Ruin was what she expected to see.

Careless of making more rips in her dress but as careful of sound as a mouse, she climbed one of the piles of rubble and peered into the curving streets of the Inner City.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 22 "The Price of The Ring" - Egwene al'Vere point of view, during her Accepted Test



Min, Faile, Aviendha, Siuan, Olver, Bera, Birgitte, Tylin, Beslan, and even Juilin have all been each mentioned or referred to as a 'mouse' in the series in multiple places. Even the collective group of Black Ajah Hunters have been indirectly referred as a mouse: Saerin, Seaine, Pevara, Doesine, Yukiri. It's not like this post isn't large enough yet is it? Chuckles ... I am getting closer to my main point.


Perhaps even Lanfear has a bit of mouse in her character?

“Did you see the gleeman?” Mat asked Rand, who nodded vaguely, eyeing the line of wagons as if he had never seen a wagon before. Rhuarc and Heirn were already on their way back to the rest of the Jindo. The hundred surrounding Rand waited patiently, dividing their gaze between him and anything that might hide even a mouse.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 36 "Misdirections" - Mat Cauthon point of view, with Rand, Rhuarc, Keille Shaogi (Lanfear), Kadere, Aviendha in this scene, where Mat gains this "Hat"

Lanfear is indeed hiding in the open, yet is she a mouse among the Chosen? Or not?




Morgase unlike Breane had to learn this the hard way, that the advantages of being a 'mouse' can offer another path....


Lini’s eyes widened, though, and her breath caught. “You come away from there now!” she snapped, and suiting actions to words, seized her arm and physically pulled her from the window.

“Lini, you forget yourself! You stopped being my nurse a long—!” Morgase drew a deep breath and softened her tone. Meeting those frightened eyes was not easy; nothing frightened Lini. “What I do is for the best, believe me,” she told her gently. “There’s no other way—”

“No other way?” Breane broke in angrily, gripping her skirts till her hands shook. Clearly she would rather have had them wrapped around Morgase’s throat. “What fool nonsense are you spouting now? What if these Seanchan think we killed you?” Morgase compressed her lips; had she become so transparent?

“Shut up, woman!” Lini never got angry, either, or raised her voice, but she did both now, her withered cheeks red. She raised a bony hand. “You hold your mouth, or I’ll slap you sillier than you are!”

“Slap her if you want to slap someone!” Breane shouted back so fiercely that spittle flew. “Queen Morgase! She will send you and me and my Lamgwin to the gallows, and her precious Tallanvor too, because she lacks the belly of a mouse!”


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 26 "The Irrevocable Words" - Morgase point of view, with Breane, and Lini at the Whitecloak Fortress

Morgase finally begins to see the advantages of being a 'mouse' and accepts changing into one, later on in tPoD, Chapter 8. Yes, even a strong woman with a heart of lion, can be a mouse if it serves her purposes: “Maighdin Dorlain can watch!” she broke in, at least partly to stop that awful litany. “She can listen!


A Mouse, and Mice aren't all that bad. :)



As Jim once said (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=84):

I had two nicknames in ‘Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He’s the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn’t like so much. The Iceman.


Ganesha is this icon below.
Did you catch a glance at the mouse in shown in the lower right corner?

http://vicdicara.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/ganesha.jpg?w=204&h=300

Jim goes on to conclude (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=84):

I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles.


http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=voice4india.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvoice4india.files.wordpress.com%2 F2008%2F01%2Fganesha_symbolism_1.gif&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fvoice4india.wordpress.com%2F2008 %2F01%2F25%2Fganesha-the-eradicator-of-all-evils%2F


Aspects of Ganesha primary traits and symbols of Ganesha are found within many of the major Wheel of Time characters. 'The Mouse' is one key aspect of Ganesha which is an important part of these characters make-up. Be it Mat Cauthon, Egwene al'Vere, or an inexperienced Rand al'Thor. If Moghedien is a poisonous spider, her 'prey' the 'mouse' better be careful and watch out in TofM book.


Perhaps Beslan and Mat dialog stated the author's view on mice, the most openly and candidly?

“She says we are mice,” Beslan said bitterly. “ ‘When wolf-hounds pass by, mice lie quiet or get eaten,’ ” he quoted. “I don’t like being a mouse, Mat.”

Mat breathed a little more easily. “Better a live mouse than a dead one, Beslan.” Which might not have been the most diplomatic way to put it—Beslan grimaced at him—but it was true.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 29 "News in a Cloth Sack" - Mat Cauthon point of view, with Beslan, Juilin, and Thom in this scene

Casabamelon
07-12-2010, 12:53 PM
Wall of text

o_O

Oh my...

How is it that you managed to find the ugliest wolf picture on the internet for your avatar?

Three wolf moon is too blurry at that rez.
________
Motorcycle tires (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 03:19 PM
o_O

Oh my...

Yes, that response of mine was a bit on the long side. Maybe a thread split is going to be needed to be called for soon?

Avatar thread?

Three wolf moon is too blurry at that rez.

Too many black t-shirts of "three wolf moon" appear under that google term. Pages and Pages of the same darn photo and t-shirt. None any good enough for an avatar in a forum with a grey background.


There's always the Great Wolf hand puppet option? :o
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/th/the-puppet-company-world-animal-hand-puppet--wolf.jpg

Or perhaps the Great Wolf backpack avatar? :(

http://www.stuffedanimals.com/v/productimages/jaag/20026.jpg

Possibility "simply the best" is good enough?

http://www.oneinhundred.com/upfiles/upimg0/Wolf---Cute-5--stuffed-animal--5253200.jpg


On the more realist side...

http://feralandwild.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/my-wolf-power-animal.jpg


Far better than a Wolf in Sheep's clothing, right?

http://ih0.redbubble.net/work.1793952.2.papergc,441x415,w,ffffff.v4.jpg

However, it's much less dark looking than this Wolf icon.

http://www.crestock.com/images/1510000-1519999/1517452-xs.jpg


And if your feeling like confusing people with a Dragon, you could try out this avatar perhaps? ;)

http://www.beardeddragonguide.com/wp-content/gallery/bearded/bearded%20dragon%20mouth.jpg

All in a day's laugh.


Now more seriously this Iberian Wolf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news/hasselblad-shooter-named-wildlife-photographer-of-the-year-award.aspx) is one of my all-time favorite photos of a wolf.

http://melissalately.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/wolf.jpg

What do you think Great Wolf?

Terez
07-12-2010, 05:35 PM
My spider is a real spider - a jumping spider (they're cuter than other spiders). It's just photoshopped to have a smile.

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 07:30 PM
A Jumping Spider?

She doesn't seem to be a very active spider, given her name.


Now these are Jumping Spiders:

http://www4.samford.edu/schools/artsci/biology/invert-03f/graphics/Phidippus-regis-eyes.jpg

http://funny.funnyoldplanet.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/869a7_eye-macros-jumping-spider2.jpg

http://funny.funnyoldplanet.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/869a7_eye-macros-jumping-spider1.jpg

http://funny.funnyoldplanet.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/bd3df_eye-macros-jumping-spider3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LbccUVbSRd8/SWZo7yDmjgI/AAAAAAAAD6o/I0ywaRgrjdk/s400/jumping+spider+eyes+4.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2506/475eyessss.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2690285433_0b2059f6b6.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1003/4596878763_3c754175f4.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3379/4622896362_50c1b7ff53.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/3391055754_de4cf7fe47.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3208080239_6f802d2701.jpg


http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/3086017128_782d7687d4.jpg

Though I wouldn't say Jumping Spiders are completely harmless:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1448ojn.jpg



What do you think of all these Jumping Spiders photos, Terez?


Any up to your standards for an avatar?

nameless
07-12-2010, 07:41 PM
The second one from the top is the one she actually used for her avatar, so I'm gonna guess at least one of them is up to her standards :P

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 08:07 PM
This Jumping Spider has at least 4 eyes showing, not the 2 eyes which Terez's avatar has.

http://funny.funnyoldplanet.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/869a7_eye-macros-jumping-spider2.jpg

Versus

http://mattmorgan.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d646d53ef010536daa423970b-400wi

There are a few other noticeable differences.

Notice that this Green Jumping Spider has four eyes, unlike Terez's avatar creation?

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs23/PRE/i/2007/356/c/7/green_jumping_spider_closeup_by_troypiggo.jpg



Though I do wonder if Moghedien's spider is 'glowing' or not?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/images/070125-glowing-spiders_big.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/2989573241_50e97f090f.jpg

Glowing (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070125-glowing-spiders.html)is a sign of a spider, looking for a mate.

Do any Chosen ever reproduce children of their own? Or is that a 'status killer' with the Dark One?



http://insidiousclothing.com/lolspiders/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/in-ur-house.jpg

http://www.insidiousclothing.com/lolspiders/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/flyburger-scott-thompson.jpg

http://insidiousclothing.com/lolspiders/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/opo-crush-like-bug.jpg

http://insidiousclothing.com/lolspiders/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/silenos81-no_more.jpg

Ivhon
07-12-2010, 08:17 PM
my GOD!!

Is this what the WOT boards have come to? Sweet Jeebus in heaven! I came here to find out if ******** is a darkfriend - and possibly killed Asmo while (s)he was at it - and what do I find?

A bunch of damn spiders, that's what! SPIDERS!!

Weep, friends. Weep for what is lost forever.

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 08:45 PM
Nothing is lost, Ivhon.


I did suggest a thread split earlier, pushing the avatar discussion over to another new thread. Then leave the original topic thread alone, ******** is a darkfriend.


As best I understand it, this avatar discussion begin at Post #74. I didn't join this conversation until Post #81, if your wondering.


All Tamyrlin really has to do, is to split this thread at Post #74 or there abouts.

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2010, 03:42 AM
Tamyrlin? Do?
I think there's a flaw in your plan somewhere.

This Jumping Spider has at least 4 eyes showing, not the 2 eyes which Terez's avatar has.That's probably a result of the photoshopping Terez mentioned. In all official pictures of Cameron Diaz the eye in the middle of her forehead is also photoshopped away.

FelixPax
07-13-2010, 07:16 AM
Really Gonzo, do you think Sorilea is a darkfriend?

Overall this idea sounds far fetched to me...


--------------------------------------------


Cameron Diaz has third eye? o_O

That's curious because she had only two, when I have seen her in person on a plane. All of ten feet away from her. ;o)

Casabamelon
07-14-2010, 07:44 AM
Pictures

FYI, the text on that last wolf picture needs to be updated. His award was revoked when it was discovered that he staged his photo.
________
How i met your mother dicussion (http://www.tv-gossip.com/how-i-met-your-mother/)

Terez
07-14-2010, 07:50 AM
What do you think of all these Jumping Spiders photos, Terez?
I have used a couple of them to make lolspiders. The last one had NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM or something on it. They are not harmless if you are a bug that is good to eat. I, fortunately, am not. Dunno about you. I wouldn't eat you. :p I had a different pic of the clear green type for my avatar at Malazan for a long time. It was hanging upside-down from its leaf, and was a reference to the upside-down chicken of another member's avatar.

greatwolf
07-14-2010, 12:05 PM
What do you think Great Wolf?

:D

Good ones there, though I'm not sure they'll fit the size restrictions. I had several pics of wolves that i preferred to this one, but none was accepted when I tried editing. I'll probably give one of yopurs a go though.

Back to topic, if Sorilea isn't a DF, what would the shadow gain by discrediting her? Would that not make Amys de facto leader of the WOs? Or is it just the shadow sowing chaos without thought?

GonzoTheGreat
07-14-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't think the Shadow has much to lose by discrediting her, so why shouldn't they do it?

I mean, even if Amys takes over, there will still be some confusion and a lot of suspicion. Just weeks (or days) before TG, that's not going to help Rand.

FelixPax
07-15-2010, 09:21 AM
I don't think the Shadow has much to lose by discrediting her, so why shouldn't they do it?

However if the main aim of the Shadow was to create distrust in Rand towards his own allies, it worked for the majority of tGS book. Post-Semirhage, Elza being balefired by Rand with the True Power.

Sorilea just doesn't have as much direct influence upon Rand, as Cadsuane tried directly to have with Rand.

I'm not at all sure, why there's a debate about Sorilea being Darkfriend? As I don't see it being a plot arc for her character going forward. She's a rival for leadership of the Aiel Wise Ones along side of Amys. A women who's not a Dreamwalker, nor a former Maiden.


Sorilea saw in Egwene, a women who has an Aiel heart...at a time, when Amys was not sure of Egwene aims. Amys saw Egwene as an possible enemy for some time, while Sorilea did not. Sorilea was the one who attempted to marry Egwene to one of her own male relatives; just as Amys & Lian created a situation where Rand and Aviendha would create a relationship over time.

It seems as if Amys has more growing to do as a character, than Sorilea does going forward. Can Amys see the Seanchan as more than a faceless group? Sorilea is far older than Amys is, and yet Sorilea is the one Cadsuane compares herself too: two aged hawks.


More than anything else I suspect Moridin is trying to manipulate Rand; so that he does not learn until its too late what trap(s) have been created by Moridin to capture or kill Rand.



Good ones there, though I'm not sure they'll fit the size restrictions. I had several pics of wolves that i preferred to this one, but none was accepted when I tried editing. I'll probably give one of yours a go though.

You could resize/resample any image with IrfanView (http://www.irfanview.com/) version 4.27 (free) if you lack access to a more powerful commercial software like Photoshop.

Just use Irfanview's Ctrl+R command to begin to resize/resample a photo to meet the 48kb or so limit on avatars at Theoryland.


Little did I know there was a 20 image limit per post, until I started linking to Jumping Spiders. Limits! :eek::eek: ;)



I have used a couple of them to make lolspiders. The last one had NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM or something on it. They are not harmless if you are a bug that is good to eat. I, fortunately, am not. Dunno about you. I wouldn't eat you. :p

Laugh, glad to hear its safe to be in the same room if your hungry. ;) Which might occur I guess if you happen attend Comic-Con in San Diego on July 25th? Fortunately for you, I don't eat people, either. :p




Wonder if Robert Jordan was thinking of a Carolina Wolf Spider (http://www.southcarolinaparks.com/beautiful-places/wildlife/creature-carolina-wolfspider.aspx) when he wrote about Moghedien's character?


South Carolina's State Spider (http://www.orkin.com/other/spiders/south-carolina-state-wolf-spider) is the Carolina Wolf Spider, as shown below:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2788406370_7cba49b576_o.jpg

Terez's avatar and the prior images of Jump Spiders I posted has my mind thinking once again of Moghedien and her promise:

Nynaeve al’Meara, Elayne Trakand, and Birgitte. Those three she would find, and deal with. From the shadows, so that they would not know until too late. All three, without exception. She vanished, and the banners waved on in the breeze of Tel’aran’rhiod.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 25 "Dreams of Galad" - Moghedien point of view

Time to strike for Moghedien once again?

GonzoTheGreat
07-15-2010, 09:30 AM
I'm not at all sure, why there's a debate about Sorilea being Darkfriend?Because she is one of the very few people who knew where Cadsuane had stored the E've. And only a very short time after Sorilea found that out, the thing was stolen and used on Rand.

Some people seem to think that is a bit suspicious.

FelixPax
07-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Because she is one of the very few people who knew where Cadsuane had stored the E've. And only a very short time after Sorilea found that out, the thing was stolen and used on Rand.

Some people seem to think that is a bit suspicious.

I see.

That does not explain away Moridin's prior plans for Semirhage (tGS, Prologue). Plans which occurred weeks before Sorilea ever saw that male Domination ter'angreal.

Elza or Beldeine could easily have been the rats, not Sorilea. All Shaidar Haran really had to learn where Cadsuane keeps her room to find it.

Why isn't anyone suggesting Beldeine as a candidate for the B.A.? And Asha'man Karldin?

Both are stronger candidates for being allied with the Shadow than Sorilea is....

Kimon
07-15-2010, 10:55 AM
I see.

That does not explain away Moridin's prior plans for Semirhage (tGS, Prologue). Plans which occurred weeks before Sorilea ever saw that male Domination ter'angreal.

Elza or Beldeine could easily have been the rats, not Sorilea. All Shaidar Haran really had to learn where Cadsuane keeps her room to find it.

Why isn't anyone suggesting Beldeine as a candidate for the B.A.? And Asha'man Karldin?

Both are stronger candidates for being allied with the Shadow than Sorilea is....

Beldeine and Karldin haven't done anything that raises any red flags, Sorilea has. The only even possible suggestion regarding Beldeine was Egwene's Accepted Test, but in that Beldeine had been forcibly turned, and moreover, it should not be taken as evidence that that has actually happened. There's nothing in her interrogation/compulsion scene that should arouse suspicion indeed, Verin seems to place her in the clear. Note this interchange:

"Do you believe he is the Dragon Reborn, Beldeine?" This time she paused to listen.

"Yes." The word was a long hiss, and Beldeine rolled frightened eyes toward Verin's face. "Yes...but he must... be kept... safe. The world... must be... safe... from him."

Interesting. They had all said that the world had to be kept safe from him; what was interesting was those who thought he needed protection, too. Some who said that, surprised her.

So two points. Beldeine emphasizes that he must be kept safe, and gives this priority even over the world's safety. Verin's comment about being surprised about "some who said that" likely refers either to reds or blacks, but either way, there is nothing here that gives the indication that Beldeine is black at this point. So, unless you think that she was forcibly turned at some point after this, there is little cause to suspect her.

Karldin likewise is almost certainly not a DF. If he was, Taim wouldn't have still been pushing Rand to add one of his own cronies to Rand's Asha'man retinue after the Wells. With Beldeine there is a sliver of possibility (upon the basis of the accepted test scene), with Karldin there is nothing suspicious. That doesn't make it impossible, just very implausible.

greatwolf
07-15-2010, 01:16 PM
I see.

:D

Those spiders look hungry Felix, be sure you're seated next to the right one. :p


I've never really seen spiders as cute beasties, but I hear terez's pretty enough not to need to worry about that kind of image.:)


I think the Sorilea question is quite valid. Its unlike the shadow not to have some high up in the aiel hierachy. But if Sorilea is it, why put her in a position where she could easily come under severe scrutiny?


I think Cadsuane has ignored her simply because its unlikely Sorilea could have removed the wards by herself. But we know she didn't need to defeat the wards. Just reporting the location would have been enough.

Karldin and Beldeine have been off my radar. Why would they be significant?:)

FelixPax
07-16-2010, 06:43 AM
:D

Those spiders look hungry Felix, be sure you're seated next to the right one. :p

Got to say, some of the Jumping Spider images are pretty darn cute! Well, for Spiders that is ^^

Luckily for us humans, Jumping Spiders aren't looking to eat people. :)

Karldin and Beldeine have been off my radar. Why would they be significant?:)

They are each near the Dragon Reborn now, and that by itself is significant. (KoD, Ch.27; TGS,Ch48)


Recall that Mesaana claimed to have at least one woman spy on scene, when Rand had this hand blown off by Semirhage?

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill"

The Gathering Storm, Prologue - Graendal point of view

Sounds as if "our woman" implies that this spy is both Mesaana & Demandred plant.


I guess the pro-Sorilea darkfriend camp, believes Sorilea is the Mesaana's spy? :confused:

That's bizarre as Sorilea was one of the leaders to "free" a kidnapped Rand al'Thor from Mesaana's and Demandred hands previously (LoC & ACOS). Sorilea even fought Sammael's pawn of the Shiado, at Dumai Wells.


Instead I suspect that Beldeine, Kardlin and Kiruna Nachiman are all on the Shadow's side, near Rand al'Thor now.


Has anyone else ever thought about Verin's Letter to Rand about Black Sisters not following an Oath (KoD,Chapter "Golden Crane")? That suggestions Verin knows of more than one Black Ajah Sister with Rand in Tear, then.


Do you really want all the evidence listed here, why these three characters are most likely on the Shadow's side, within this thread?

I just want an "okay" or a push to "a new thread", before everyone sees a text wall created...about Beldeine, Karldin, Kiruna Nachiman. Which do you all prefer?

(Still working on Valan Luca, Lanfear essays...too.)

GonzoTheGreat
07-16-2010, 07:27 AM
The reason why Beldeine, Karldin and Kiruna aren't debated in this case is that we do not have any reason to assume that they knew where the E've was kept, nor that they saw how it was guarded.

Cadsuane showed it to Sorilea and Bair. Bair can't channel, so she would not have noticed anything about the defenses that Cadsuane had set up. Which leaves a list containing one single suspect. Would you bother to hazard a guess who that suspect is?

One Armed Gimp
07-16-2010, 09:50 AM
Eh, I think people to easily discount the possibility of SH's abilities to defeat the ward, most likely using Elza. If thats the case, the weave may not need to have been repeated and Bair could be a suspect.

Terez
07-16-2010, 09:59 AM
No one has come up with a good explanation for how that was supposed to be done.

1. Shaidar Haran probably can't teach weaves to anyone.

2. If Shaidar Haran could teach weaves to someone, it would be the True Power, and that is restricted to Moridin's use alone now. I find it to be hard to believe they'd let Elza use it. It is a high privilege, and Darkfriends take that sort of thing very seriously.

3. If breaking a ward was as simple as that, then the Forsaken would not have been so sure they could do nothing about Callandor (in the floor of the Stone, with Rand's wards) and the toys in the Great Holding (warded by both Rand and Moiraine). If you want to disarm a ward trap, you have to know the weaves. Cadsuane invented this one herself; I think that was mentioned specifically so that we would know that it wasn't a simple matter of 'oh, I know this ward; the weave to disarm it is this.'

One Armed Gimp
07-16-2010, 10:43 AM
No one has come up with a good explanation for how that was supposed to be done.

No one would have been able to provide an explanation for why they thought SH could cut some one off from the True Source prior to his doing it. Shaidar Haran is a mystery, his abilities and limits are for the most part unknown. We have no evidence to suggest that he can or can not in some way defeat a ward, dissolve a weave, or what have you in order to gain access to the E've other than we have not seen him do it.

I can not explain how he is able to do it, but I think that he was. There is not enough evidence to convict Sorilea prior to this incident. With the incident we have two options to start:

1. SH was able to get the bracelets through powers of his own.
2. SH was not able to and needed a channeler to undo the wards and then get the bracelets.

In order to support the second option either Sorilea is a DF or some one was able to find/detect/already knew where the E've was and defeat the ward. Sorilea being a DF is more likely there.

I think SH being able to do it on his own is the more likely option even though the only real explanation one can give is "just 'cause".

That still leaves open either Sorilea or Bair possibly being a DF. Of those two, I leans towards Bair.

Marie Curie 7
07-16-2010, 11:34 AM
No one would have been able to provide an explanation for why they thought SH could cut some one off from the True Source prior to his doing it. Shaidar Haran is a mystery, his abilities and limits are for the most part unknown. We have no evidence to suggest that he can or can not in some way defeat a ward, dissolve a weave, or what have you in order to gain access to the E've other than we have not seen him do it.

I can not explain how he is able to do it, but I think that he was. There is not enough evidence to convict Sorilea prior to this incident. With the incident we have two options to start:

1. SH was able to get the bracelets through powers of his own.
2. SH was not able to and needed a channeler to undo the wards and then get the bracelets.

In order to support the second option either Sorilea is a DF or some one was able to find/detect/already knew where the E've was and defeat the ward. Sorilea being a DF is more likely there.

I think SH being able to do it on his own is the more likely option even though the only real explanation one can give is "just 'cause".

That still leaves open either Sorilea or Bair possibly being a DF. Of those two, I leans towards Bair.

Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Q: You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?
A: Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done.

Brandon also explicitly stated that it was Elza who removed the ward on Cadsuane's box.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Also, there were some comments some ways back about how Elza knew she had been compelled. Shaidar Haran told her.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Was the Compulsion which Elza told Semirhage about, Verin's work from after Dumai's Wells, and was it Shaidar Haran who told her about it and to ask Semirhage to remove it?
A. Yes.

Sukoto
07-16-2010, 01:01 PM
Recall that Mesaana claimed to have at least one woman spy on scene, when Rand had this hand blown off by Semirhage?

Sounds as if "our woman" implies that this spy is both Mesaana & Demandred plant.

I guess the pro-Sorilea darkfriend camp, believes Sorilea is the Mesaana's spy?
If there was a woman DF in Rand's camp taking orders from Demandred and Mesaana, it is most likely she is Aes Sedai and not Aiel. There is no evidence that I have seen of Mesaana or Demandred having dealings among the Aiel, but plenty of evidence that they have dealings with the Black Ajah. There is also another Black sister bound to Rand besides Elza that we know of. I don't recall if either was part of the group that went to meet the Seanchan, but we know that Elza usually stayed close to Rand. My guess is that Elza is the "our woman" that Mesaana was talking about.

There is no reason to suspect Beldeine, Karldin AND Kiruna. All three? Seriously, I doubt any of them are DFs. Taim likes to keep the Asha'man DFs close to him, and neither Beldeine nor Kiruna was on Verin's list.

Neilbert
07-17-2010, 02:21 AM
Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

There are also reports that indicate that swearing to the Dark One removes certain "protections", which may have something to do with Shaidar Haran's control over darkfriends.

One Armed Gimp
07-19-2010, 09:25 AM
Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

...

Brandon also explicitly stated that it was Elza who removed the ward on Cadsuane's box....

I'm not suggesting that SH did not need/use Elza, merely suggesting that he may have the ability to defeat the ward without needing to know the weave.

Yes, he has limitations, some even stated in the books, but we do not know what all those limitations are. We can not discount the possibility of SH being able to use Elza to get the bracelets with out the need for someone to show her the flows simply because we have not seen him do something like that before.

Terez
07-19-2010, 09:27 AM
No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

Neilbert
07-19-2010, 10:06 AM
Well, except for this:

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

And the fact that the Dark One is described as being non human and the ur-control freak. Even if he was able to teach his followers really sweet super rare weaves he likely wouldn't without a very direct and specific reason in a situation in which he was in full control. Elza fits that one to a T.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2010, 10:10 AM
Actually, I do not think that it is correct to call the DO a control freak. His Forsaken definitely are, but I don't think he himself is. He wants results, but whatever else his minions get up to doesn't bother him at all.

Neilbert
07-19-2010, 03:26 PM
I'm not the person who is calling the Dark One the ur-control freak, that bit came from RJ. I didn't even know what the prefix ur meant until I saw it in an RJ quote and looked it up.

Since you are so sweet:

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2010, 03:28 PM
What does RJ know? He also thought that the question of what hermaphrodites would channel was strange.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 02:37 PM
What does RJ know? He also thought that the question of what hermaphrodites would channel was strange.

LOL

Did he answer it?

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2010, 03:46 AM
LOL

Did he answer it?No, I think he hadn't thought it through well enough.
Someone actually asked Jordan whether a hermaphrodite would channel saidin or saidar. Jordan was...non-plussed. "A hermaphrodite?! I dunno. I'd have to sit down and figure that out." He shot the guy a funny look as he walked away, then remarked to the next group of people in line that he put that in the same category as the person who wrote to ask him what Donald Duck would channel.At first glance, he might have had a point. But as soon as you sit down and do the math, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual mathematician that in the AOL people must have known the answer.

Right now, we have somewhere between 6 and 7 billion people. Assume that the population in the AOL was similar. Right now, about one in a million people are hermaphrodites, and there isn't any reason that I know of to think it would be different in the AOL. That means that there are something like six to seven thousand hermaphrodites alive at any given moment. If two to three percent of them can channel (as was the ordinary proportion), then that would mean something like 100-200 channeling hermaphrodites. More than enough to figure out some rules, I would say, with at most three options (saidin, saidar or both). The only other option is that they couldn't channel at all, which also would have shown up quite clearly in the statistics.

IamChosen
07-26-2010, 12:32 PM
LOL

I wonder if he figured it out and left it in the notes. :)

Anyway, everyone knows that Donald would channel the True Power, the evil bastard.

nameless
07-26-2010, 08:38 PM
No, I think he hadn't thought it through well enough.
At first glance, he might have had a point. But as soon as you sit down and do the math, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual mathematician that in the AOL people must have known the answer.

Right now, we have somewhere between 6 and 7 billion people. Assume that the population in the AOL was similar. Right now, about one in a million people are hermaphrodites, and there isn't any reason that I know of to think it would be different in the AOL. That means that there are something like six to seven thousand hermaphrodites alive at any given moment. If two to three percent of them can channel (as was the ordinary proportion), then that would mean something like 100-200 channeling hermaphrodites. More than enough to figure out some rules, I would say, with at most three options (saidin, saidar or both). The only other option is that they couldn't channel at all, which also would have shown up quite clearly in the statistics.

One in a million seems really low... Are you counting testicularly feminized males as hemaphrodites? Cause that happens to one in 20,000 or so : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

I'd guess saidar is the default unless the person in question was exposed to high testosterone levels in utero and again at the onset of puberty.

Terez
07-27-2010, 12:00 AM
Well, channeling is both genetic and tied to the soul, so perhaps hermaphroditic bodies do not have the channeling component.

Ieyasu
07-27-2010, 10:14 AM
No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

I am curious about this so-called 'evidence' you feel is stacked against Shaidar Haran, and in favor of Sorilea... especially considering this quote:

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2010, 11:11 AM
Well, not if it had been Sorilea who gave the knowledge of those weaves, either directly to Elza or indirectly via SH.

greatwolf
07-27-2010, 12:18 PM
I'd guess saidar is the default unless the person in question was exposed to high testosterone levels in utero and again at the onset of puberty.


Does Arangar have high levels of testorone now? If he's castrated will he begin channeling saidar? I don't think so. I think it comes with the soul irrespective of hormones. A mixed gender person likely will still have a male soul or female rather than both or mixed. And therefore will channel whichever the soul had. As with Arangar though, that wouldn't shape body chemistry.

IamChosen
07-27-2010, 12:40 PM
I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?

That quote is purposely vague.

It does not say Shaidar Haran gave Elza the knowledge, or any knowledge at all. It just says she was given knowledge and made into SH's tool. :)

If you want something more specific, try asking Brandon Sanderson "Did Shaidar Haran and Elza learn Cadsuane's wards by themselves, or was there a third person involved?"

But either way, I'm pretty sure he'll RAFO it. :)

Terez
07-27-2010, 08:26 PM
I am curious about this so-called 'evidence' you feel is stacked against Shaidar Haran, and in favor of Sorilea... especially considering this quote:



I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?
No, it does not. Have you actually read my theory on the home page? Evidently not. First off, there's another Brandon quote that says Shaidar Haran couldn't physically do it himself, etc. Second, Brandon does NOT say that Shaidar Haran taught Elza weaves.

Ieyasu
07-27-2010, 09:02 PM
That quote is purposely vague.

It does not say Shaidar Haran gave Elza the knowledge, or any knowledge at all. It just says she was given knowledge and made into SH's tool. :)

lol vague? lol... not really.. she was given knowledge of several rarely known weaves in addition to being made into a tool of SH in other ways... its pretty black and white to me. not only was SH the source of those 'rarely known' weaves she was given, he also made use of her as a tool in several other ways as well...

I suppose you could argue as gonzo is in saying perhaps Sorilea provided the intel to SH about Cadsuane's wards who in turn provided Elza with rare weaves to defeat such AND made her his bitch in other ways... which would be far more plausible to me, because I simply do not believe the Aiel are in possession of any 'rarely known weaves'

im still waiting to see if terez will back up her claims that:

No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

I fail to see how any evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea providing the weaves when the author flat out states Elza did the deed after having been given 'rarely known weaves' AND being made into Shaidar Haran's tool.

Have we seen any other 'rarely known weaves' come from the Aiel? What evidence is there that the Aiel have any ability to defeat innovative and non-standard alarm weaves? At Sorilea's powerlevel, why would we believe she is in possession of any rarely known weaves at all or would be able to make use of them is she was? Are we going to suddenly find out 11 books deep that the Aiel wiseones have been holding out and keeping secret one power weaves all along? cmon get real.

The evidence for Sorilea is pretty circumstancial. She asked to see the items. She had opportunity. So did every other wise-one that was with her at the time. As well as all the Aes Sedai who attend Cadsuane for several books. Some of which we now know are black. There are many potential sources for intel about Cadsuane's wards to have made it to Shaidar Haran, Sorilea is but one of many suspects.

No, it does not. Have you actually read my theory on the home page? Evidently not.

No, I have not read your theory... however i read the idea's you posted from the 13th depository and posted on the main site.

This is not my theory


Sorry, but stringing up a bunch of highly circumstancial things does not in any way stack up evidence... i mean seriously... have you looked at the things you posted as evidence?

Sorilea is a Darkfriend because she wants the wiseones to fight using the power in battle? really? You yourself admitted it wasnt evidence on the mainpage... now you want to say it is on this forum? make up your mind please...

Sorilea is a darkfriend because she is smug when Rand turns over captive Aes Sedai to the Aiel wise-ones? seriously? you do recall that the wise-ones, collectively, have no respect for Aes Sedai at all, right?

Sorilea is a darkfriend because she smiles when min says those honorless aes sedai will serve rand... after being re-trained by aiel wiseones? i suppose simple pride in retraining some sloppy children into useful adults is 'of the dark' now... i mean, we havent seen the wise-ones (including Sorilea) proud of progressing students every before right? (egwene)

Every single piece of so-called 'evidence' you have is merely subjective circumstantial bullshit. None of this is evidence at all.

First off, there's another Brandon quote that says Shaidar Haran couldn't physically do it himself, etc. Second, Brandon does NOT say that Shaidar Haran taught Elza weaves.[/quote]

No he doesnt in plain english say "shaidar haran gave Elza rarely known weaves" he does say, however, that she was given rarely known weaves AND made into a tool by shaidar haran.

Why would the author be sure to link Elza and Shaidar Haran and the rarely known weaves in the same sentence if they came from another source?

It is highly implied from that quote that shaidar haran gave her knowledge of rarely known weaves IN ADDITION to making her his tool in several ways... none of which was pleasant for her.

The quote is transcribed and the punctution matters. A missed comma changes that entire sentence.

As for the more detailed quote on Shaidar Haran having more access to ppl who have sworn to him/the shadow/whatever, and needing to work thru them? I do not have a problem with him using whatever access he has to them to be able to provide Elza with knowledge of rarely known weaves. I do have a problem with sudden, magical, 'rarely known' weaves popping up in the possession of a basically worthless channeler who cant even use them because she is so weak. I have a problem with 'rarely known weaves' popping up in the Aiel culture at all...

All this being said, I do agree with you that Sorilea is a darkfriend, but in no way, shape, or form, is there any evidence stacked towards her or against Shaidar Haran. The biggest piece of evidence is the lack of POV scenes from her imo.

btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.

Kimon
07-27-2010, 11:18 PM
btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.

Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

Terez
07-27-2010, 11:46 PM
I fail to see
That is not surprising. There is a relevant thread on Non. ;)

Have we seen any other 'rarely known weaves' come from the Aiel?
Are you even freaking paying the slightest bit of attention?

The evidence for Sorilea is pretty circumstancial. She asked to see the items. She had opportunity. So did every other wise-one that was with her at the time.
Most importantly, SHE SAW CADSUANE DISARM THE TRAP. The only other Wise One with her was Bair, who CANNOT CHANNEL.

As well as all the Aes Sedai who attend Cadsuane for several books. Some of which we now know are black. There are many potential sources for intel about Cadsuane's wards to have made it to Shaidar Haran, Sorilea is but one of many suspects.
What makes you think that she has ever opened the box in front of anyone before?

No, I have not read your theory... however i read the idea's you posted from the 13th depository and posted on the main site.
If you had actually read it, you might have saved yourself from looking like a total dumbass, but it's too late now. The theory starts out with circumstantial evidence, but the evidence gets stronger and stronger as the series goes on, and I went chronologically.

Why would the author be sure to link Elza and Shaidar Haran and the rarely known weaves in the same sentence if they came from another source?
Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago. Chances are, Shaidar Haran can't teach anyone weaves at all, and that the information came rather from Sorilea, who is probably the only female channeler that has ever observed Cadsuane disarming the traps THAT SHE INVENTED HERSELF on the box.

I do agree with you that Sorilea is a darkfriend
No one cares.

IamChosen
07-28-2010, 02:10 AM
lol vague? lol... not really.. she was given knowledge of several rarely known weaves in addition to being made into a tool of SH in other ways... its pretty black and white to me. not only was SH the source of those 'rarely known' weaves she was given, he also made use of her as a tool in several other ways as well...

Perhaps that's just me, but I look at the authors' words as I would look at an Aes Sedai's. They will obviously not lie, but if they are protecting something, they may not say what we think they said. :)

Of course, if he was truly pinned down, he could have RAFOed it...

I have a problem with 'rarely known weaves' popping up in the Aiel culture at all...

Let's see, off the top of my head:

- adept dreamwalkers (not a weave, but still something Aes Sedai are not)
- adept at unraveling weaves, Modidin himself noting how remarkable it was
- invented the sort of bonding that occurs in the First Sisters/Brothers cerimony

I think you are selling the Aiel short.

btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

Therava is described as having auger eyes. Granted, she is not a good person per se, but she's not a darkfriend either.

Ieyasu
07-28-2010, 03:35 AM
Perhaps that's just me, but I look at the authors' words as I would look at an Aes Sedai's. They will obviously not lie, but if they are protecting something, they may not say what we think they said. :)

Of course, if he was truly pinned down, he could have RAFOed it...

Keep in mind, the author didnt type that quote. He said the answer in a book tour interview and it was transcribed. As I pointed out, the punctuation comes from the transcriber.


Let's see, off the top of my head:

- adept dreamwalkers (not a weave, but still something Aes Sedai are not)
- adept at inverting weaves, Modidin himself noting how remarkable it was
- invented the sort of bonding that occurs in the First Sisters/Brothers cerimony

I think you are selling the Aiel short.

If by inverting weaves, you mean unraveling weaves? Then yes, they do something all channelers, including the ones from the AOL, believed impossible. But again, unraveling a weave isnt something... hrm actually, it is something 'rarely known' outside of the Aiel. As Aviendha said, they actually practice doing so... so Elza could have been taught to unravel weaves i suppose...

Perhaps I am selling the Aiel short.
Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

try searching, as I suggested :)


That is not surprising. There is a relevant thread on Non. ;)


Are you even freaking paying the slightest bit of attention?


Most importantly, SHE SAW CADSUANE DISARM THE TRAP. The only other Wise One with her was Bair, who CANNOT CHANNEL.

Which relevant thread would that be?

Knowing exactly what her weave does, grabs ppl in the room with air, makes noise and flashes lights... doesnt take many weaves to bypass the trap all together, let alone 'rarely known weaves'... Her trap can be disabled and rendered effective with mundane weaves as is, for something 'rarely known' I just dont see it coming from an Aiel source... would teaching someone to unweave something be considered 'rarely known weaves'?

What makes you think that she has ever opened the box in front of anyone before?


What makes you think she hasnt? Would be pretty suspicious to have a worn looking document box that she never ever touches but leaves out in plain sight all the time, dontcha think?


If you had actually read it, you might have saved yourself from looking like a total dumbass, but it's too late now. The theory starts out with circumstantial evidence, but the evidence gets stronger and stronger as the series goes on, and I went chronologically.


No, the theory starts out with circumstantial opinion and continues to link more and more circumstantial interpretations of subjective smiles and smug looks. None of this at all is evidence. All of it is your opinion of what this look means here, or that smile means there.


Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago. Chances are, Shaidar Haran can't teach anyone weaves at all, and that the information came rather from Sorilea, who is probably the only female channeler that has ever observed Cadsuane disarming the traps THAT SHE INVENTED HERSELF on the box.


You are assuming the 'rarely known weaves' would be 4th age weaves, I am not. And while they could be, I doubt it. Then again, Nyn could have disarmed Cadsuane's traps with her B&E weaves she used to storm the gaoler's house... There is a world of difference between being able to bypass Cadsuane's little alarm noise and light maker and being able to eliminate Rand's deadly weaves. I am perfectly comfortable with some rarely known AOL weaves that dampen noise or light allowing Elza to spring the trap which does nothing lethal anyway... No need to invent some hidden Aiel trap bypassing 'rarely known' weaves. Plural. Who cares if she invented the weave or not, a weave that will drain the power from a tied off weave of X size would work. So would merely encasing the room in a sound-proof opaque box of air then touching the box... completely defeats her 'trap'
Its not even a trap per se, its an alarm.

As for Shaidar Haran teaching her? I dont know what all powers he has over darkfriends. As you pointed out, he has more power over darkfriends than others, though I think you give him too much in the way of limits in saying he cant even enter the room of a lightfriend... the dude was in the freaking tower... As we have seen, he is capable of blocking the ability to channel the power seemingly at will. We saw him effectively eliminate all of Messanna's disguise weaves, did that come from cutting her off the way he does or did that happen because he can somehow absorb weaves? Would she have been actively maintaining those weaves or would they have been tied off? In the case of her fancy disguise im sure she held that weave, but in the case of her reg day to day disguise, id bet she would tie that off rather than actively maintain it every moment of every day... How exactly does he cut off ppl from the power anyway? is he merely suppressing the ability? blocking it? putting a shield of some sort between the channeler and the source? can he do so with non-darkfriends? Point is we dont know how he effects channeling anyway, so I dont have a problem with him being able to use someone elses power, he can already stop them from channeling both while they are touching the source and without touching it. Could be as simple as him having a'dam like control over darkfriend channelers... I tend to think of some sort of power-draining AOL weave would be effective and fit the 'rarely known' bill better than Sorilea showing Elza how to disarm it... If thats all it was, then why was Elza provided any weaves at all? Unless the weaves were whatever incapacitated the Aes Sedai? I tend to think Shaidar Haran had a hand in that as well. Will be interesting to see what they have to say next book...

No one cares.
obviously, you do :rolleyes:

Terez
07-28-2010, 04:20 AM
Knowing exactly what her weave does, grabs ppl in the room with air, makes noise and flashes lights... doesnt take many weaves to bypass the trap all together, let alone 'rarely known weaves'...
If it was that easy to get past a ward, then wards would be useless, and you don't know enough about wards to say that Rand's are any better than Cadsuane's, or Moiraine's. There is zero evidence in the series to suggest that it's that easy to get past a ward, and tons of evidence against.

What makes you think she hasnt?
This is irrelevant. We have no evidence that she has ever shown the disarming weave to anyone else, which is my point.

obviously, you do :rolleyes:
No, I don't.

Neilbert
07-28-2010, 09:18 AM
Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago.

I've really already addressed this, and it isn't in keeping with the Dark One's nature at all to open a channeling school for aspiring darkfriends. The explanation for why this hasn't happened could easily be that the Dark One just didn't feel like it. In fact, that is a very likely explanation. He is not human, and thinking of him in human terms is not going to work all that well.

Heck, it's possible Elza disarmed Cadsuane's trap with the True Power.

IamChosen
07-29-2010, 02:01 AM
Keep in mind, the author didnt type that quote. He said the answer in a book tour interview and it was transcribed. As I pointed out, the punctuation comes from the transcriber.

Good point.

If by inverting weaves, you mean unraveling weaves? Then yes, they do something all channelers, including the ones from the AOL, believed impossible. But again, unraveling a weave isnt something... hrm actually, it is something 'rarely known' outside of the Aiel. As Aviendha said, they actually practice doing so... so Elza could have been taught to unravel weaves i suppose...

Perhaps I am selling the Aiel short.

Unraveling, yes, sorry.

They practice it from childhood. I don't think Elza could learn it in a minute, nor that the best of the Aiel could unravel an inverted weave they had not done. Rand would not have woken up with Semirhage, he would have woken up with an explosion. :)

Terez
07-29-2010, 02:04 AM
double post

Terez
07-29-2010, 02:05 AM
I've really already addressed this, and it isn't in keeping with the Dark One's nature at all to open a channeling school for aspiring darkfriends. The explanation for why this hasn't happened could easily be that the Dark One just didn't feel like it. In fact, that is a very likely explanation. He is not human, and thinking of him in human terms is not going to work all that well.

Heck, it's possible Elza disarmed Cadsuane's trap with the True Power.
No one ever said it wasn't possible. Just that the evidence is stacked against Sorilea. Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2010, 04:54 AM
Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.Do not underestimate the power of the Faith.

FelixPax
07-29-2010, 05:40 AM
I'm surprised no one else can considered the possibility that many in individuals knew that the Domination Band existed, and many other Aes Sedai knew where Cadsuane's room was located.

Sorilea is not the only who knew where Cadsuane's room is. :rolleyes:



Or can Shaidar Haran smell items of the Power, similar to how Hurin can smell violence?

Shaidar Haran we know can already smell the difference between Saidar, Saidin unlike any other Myrddraal who can not do this. So Shaidar Haran has a smelling Talent, a kin to a Gholam, who can smell the difference between Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power.

Can Shaidar Haran use his nose to find items of the Power, in a way similar how Padan Fain can find the Red Ruby Dagger?

Fain knew literally where to find that Red Ruby Dagger hidden in a lead box deep within the White Tower. Fain also had a Talent give to him by the Dark One to feel where Rand, Perrin, and Mat are located.


Can Shaidar Haran smell the differences between male and female created cuendillar?

It's possibly Dark One upgraded Shaidar Haran's abilities of "Smell" and "Finding Objects" to compensate for the rebellion of Padan Fain, whom had both of these Talents given to him by the Dark One at Shayol Ghul.

Shaidar Haran might not have needed any help finding that Domination Band, only help in physically removing it from the box.



Brandon did say on Book Tour, that Shaidar Haran is physically unable to touch the Domination Band. Why I'm not sure, but he needed physical aid by somebody. That somebody was not Sorilea, but Mesaana's Aes Sedai spy Elza.


If Shaidar Haran wanted to he could have Semirhage remove the Domination Band for the Box in Cadsuane's room. But no, he had a compromised Black Ajah spy, who supposedly under Mesaana's control in the person of Elza to do it.


Where as Beldeine is remains far more useful, to the Dark One still, because of her bond to Asha'man Karldin. Karldin can spy on Rand, in places where Beldeine cannot go. Rand has a degree of trust towards Karldin, and that is a valuable commodity these days.

Where as Fearil is not an Asha'man, and he was not trusted enough by Cadsuane to enter Far Madding. Fearil lacks the usefuliness, which Karldin has to the Dark One. Rand simply has not shown any extra level of trust towards Fearil. Hence, a less valuable of a commodity.

Neilbert
07-29-2010, 09:11 AM
No one ever said it wasn't possible. Just that the evidence is stacked against Sorilea. Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.

Only if you ignore Sanderson's quotes on the matter, which you are obviously more than comfortable doing as you are in "defend my theory mode".

Neilbert
07-29-2010, 09:52 AM
Well, not if it had been Sorilea who gave the knowledge of those weaves, either directly to Elza or indirectly via SH.

The woman who had to be taught Traveling and Linking, and who can barely channel strong enough to light a candle has knowledge of several rare and unknown weaves.

Got it. Evidence totally stacked.

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2010, 10:42 AM
The woman who had to be taught Traveling and Linking, and who can barely channel strong enough to light a candle has knowledge of several rare and unknown weaves.Well, yes. She was shown those specific rare weaves by Cadsuane herself, after all. That definitely makes it more credible that she would have known them.

Neilbert
07-29-2010, 10:51 AM
That's.... an interpretation of events. I'll grant you that.

However, why on earth would Cadsuane teach Sorelia "several rarely known weaves" when she could just teach Sorelia the specific weave needed to open the box?

It's like saying hey Gonzo, I'm going to teach you how to open my lock box. I have the key right here, but you don't get to use it, here's a lock pick set, have fun.

A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Taking this to mean that Sorelia taught Elza the weaves, and not Shaidar Haran, is deliberately going with the (much) weaker interpretation to support a theory.

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2010, 10:54 AM
Yeah, that is indeed a lot more fun. Though some such boxes are too easy once you've figured out the trick.

Terez
07-29-2010, 01:17 PM
Only if you ignore Sanderson's quotes on the matter, which you are obviously more than comfortable doing as you are in "defend my theory mode".
I haven't ignored his quotes at all. In fact, you are ignoring the fact that Brandon told us that Shaidar Haran has serious limitations. You're a dumbass if you think that Brandon would tell us straight out that Shaidar Haran didn't teach her the weaves. Even a RAFO would have drawn more attention to the subject than he wanted; the way he answered was a nice red herring.

Neilbert
07-30-2010, 12:40 AM
You're just desperate for a theory. My objections have gone well beyond what you have deigned to cover, so w/e.

I read your theory on the main site. It would be fun to poke holes through, but I don't really have the time or inclination.

One thing that really did strike me though. You said that Elza is proof that Min's viewing about serving Rand didn't mean what we thought it did. However, Elza not serving Rand required the direct influence of the one force completely outside of the Wheel's control. We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions, so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.

To a careful read it's obvious you are just trying to make connections. Have fun. You will probably stumble on to something else golden. This isn't it.

Terez
07-30-2010, 01:04 AM
You're just desperate for a theory.
How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here? As you can see from the beginning of this thread, I was very skeptical of the idea in the beginning. After looking into it, I realized there were too many hints to ignore.

We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions
This is retarded.


so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.
I didn't say Min's vision wasn't true, dumbass. I just said that now we know how to interpret it - Min did not say that they would serve forever, and now we know that they might not.

IamChosen
07-30-2010, 02:24 AM
One thing that really did strike me though. You said that Elza is proof that Min's viewing about serving Rand didn't mean what we thought it did. However, Elza not serving Rand required the direct influence of the one force completely outside of the Wheel's control. We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions, so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.

Min's visions always come true. Elza served Rand. There's one less Chosen in the world because of her. Sorilea served Rand too, already, whether she ends up being a Friend or dying in ToM's prologue. Those visions, in particular, already came true.

In fact, I think the greatest con against the Sorilea as a Friend of the Dark theory is that Min didn't end up with her throat slit a long time ago. Sorilea would not risk being uncovered by a random moment of Min going "Oh, she's going to do something evil!"

Terez
07-30-2010, 03:41 AM
In fact, I think the greatest con against the Sorilea as a Friend of the Dark theory is that Min didn't end up with her throat slit a long time ago. Sorilea would not risk being uncovered by a random moment of Min going "Oh, she's going to do something evil!"
I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them. And again, she was satisfied at Min's viewing, which Min interpreted to mean that Sorilea was pretending not to care one way or another about serving Rand, and Min specifically thought that it did not have anything to do with the women's obedience. Why? No explanation is readily available for the not-quite-rightness of the situation from Min's perspective at the time that it happens, but further down the road, the reasons get stronger to suspect that Sorilea was merely pleased that Min had a viewing that would lead Rand to believe that Sorilea was trustworthy.

GonzoTheGreat
07-30-2010, 04:59 AM
Now I'm wondering what Min saw around Lanfear when the two of them met.

Terez
07-30-2010, 05:03 AM
Well, it was in her POV, so you'd think she would have shared if she'd seen anything illuminating.

Ieyasu
07-30-2010, 10:49 AM
How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here?

Quality and Quantity are two very different things.

I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them. And again, she was satisfied at Min's viewing, which Min interpreted to mean that Sorilea was pretending not to care one way or another about serving Rand, and Min specifically thought that it did not have anything to do with the women's obedience. Why? No explanation is readily available for the not-quite-rightness of the situation from Min's perspective at the time that it happens, but further down the road, the reasons get stronger to suspect that Sorilea was merely pleased that Min had a viewing that would lead Rand to believe that Sorilea was trustworthy.

I think it is a stretch to think Sorilea included herself in Min's viewing. We know Min includes her internally, but given the context and Rand seeking her advise when the wiseones presented the Aes Sedai to Rand... I would think that on-lookers would apply Min's 'They will each serve you in her own way' to the Aes Sedai, not the wise-ome minders that brought them before him. Perhaps Sorilea included herself in the viewing, but as I already pointed out, I believe her 'smug' appearance is nothing more than wise-one pride that the charges Rand turned over into wise-one care have 'graduated' wise-one bootcamp. She showed similar 'smuggy' pride towards Egwene as well.

Keep in mind, Min's incredibility and inclusion of Sorilea was internal in her own mind. She didnt specify verbally in that scene that Sorilea was included in her viewing of the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai were asking to swear to Rand as others did, the wise-ones said they believed they felt it 'in their bones' Rand looks to Min, who in turn, looks at the Aes Sedai and Views them and then says they will each serve you in thier way. Including the wiseones and specifically, Sorilea was internal not verbal. Keep things in context.

Neilbert
07-30-2010, 11:03 AM
How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here?

LMAO.

This is retarded.

OK Callandor, when the soul gets removed naturally a person still maintains higher brain function.

Yes, it is retarded, you are making the same exact dumb fucking mistake that Callandor made, assuming that what the Dark One did was in any way in keeping with the natural order of things.

"We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions." Corele nodded to Min. "They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying."

"No," Min said. "You're wrong."

Congratulations, you are stupid as an Aes Sedai.

Terez
07-30-2010, 05:09 PM
Dumbass, I knew you were referring to that quote. You're still retarded.

Ieyasu
07-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Dumbass, I knew you were referring to that quote. You're still retarded.

I find it amusing when people have to resort to blatant personal attacks and infantile name calling rather than being capable of mature discussion and rational defense. Says a lot when your only defense is to attempt to distract everyone with an old fashioned hair-pulling...



/popcorn

Terez
07-30-2010, 07:03 PM
I find it amusing when trolls such as Neil and yourself come into a thread in attack mode and then try to act sanctimonious when I have the nerve to call you what you are.

Terez
07-30-2010, 07:14 PM
Terez on Twitter (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/19945391902)
Does Min's comment to Corele mean that the Dark One can subvert her viewings BEFORE the Pattern is destroyed?
Terez again (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/19945433271)
Asked in reference to the viewing that Elza would serve Rand. Or did it simply not imply she would serve forever?
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/19948746931)
Elza did serve Rand, in her own way. It did not mean forever. That was not a subverting of the viewing. (Or wasn't meant to be.)

I responded again already just to clarify that he didn't really answer the original question. The Demandred thing shows that he doesn't think like a Theorylander, lol, so maybe he will clarify further.

Edit:

Terez (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/19950057141)
Thanks! That's what I thought but some will still say you didn't answer the original question lol. It's Theoryland.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/19950370003)
Robert Jordan taught me to give Aes Sedai answers.
Terez (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/19950472403)
Fair enough. :)

Neilbert
07-30-2010, 08:01 PM
I find it amusing when trolls such as Neil and yourself come into a thread in attack mode and then try to act sanctimonious when I have the nerve to call you what you are.

Lol get bent. You take things way too personally.

If you think attacking a theory does anything besides institute a sort of natural selection you seriously need to get the fuck over yourself.

I'd be inclined to thank you for the Twittering, if you hadn't hauled off and been a total twat about it.

Neilbert
07-30-2010, 08:02 PM
I find it amusing when people have to resort to blatant personal attacks and infantile name calling rather than being capable of mature discussion and rational defense. Says a lot when your only defense is to attempt to distract everyone with an old fashioned hair-pulling...

Says she's not worth talking to, when Gonzo is more willing to engage on a serious level...

Terez
07-30-2010, 08:33 PM
See? This from the guy who is not ever nice to anyone, ever, and is always the first to go on the offensive. Get a clue, Neil. I'm tired of defending you to the people who come to Theoryland and get their heads bitten off for no reason. At least I only give my temper to those who deserve it.

IamChosen
07-31-2010, 01:42 AM
I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them.

Yes, but it still is a risk. The same way Min looks at an Aes Sedai and says "she will serve you", at a former damane and says "she will help you die", she could look at Sorilea and say "she will betray you."

It wouldn't uncover her, but Rand would never trust her (or any other Wise One again). And if Sorilea is a Friend of the Dark, then I don't need to be Min to know that my viewing is right. :)

I dunno, I'm pragmatic. If I was a Friend of the Dark and I stayed around Rand a lot, Min had to go. It could be a one in a thousand chance that she'd look at me and see something damning, but Friends aren't keen on taking chances. The price of failure is too high.

Oh, btw:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch10.html

Here, Egwene's eyes augered. :)

---

Anyway, I think I'm gonna step back from this thread. It is devolving too fast, and frankly, that's not exactly what I had in mind when joining a new forum.

Thanks for the answers, and for the clever discussion in the last few days. I enjoyed it, and it'll give me some fresh perspectives on the books.

Enjoy ToM!

Terez
07-31-2010, 05:39 AM
It's not always like that; only when the trolls get restless. ;) I have been putting up with these two for years, and I'm pretty sick of it.

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2010, 05:43 AM
Besides, DF have a tendency to be complacent, to think "it won't happen to me". If they didn't, they wouldn't hook up with the Father of Lies in the first place.

Neilbert
07-31-2010, 10:29 AM
See? This from the guy who is not ever nice to anyone, ever, and is always the first to go on the offensive. Get a clue, Neil. I'm tired of defending you to the people who come to Theoryland and get their heads bitten off for no reason. At least I only give my temper to those who deserve it.

I have never asked you to defend me. Or thanked you for defending me. Or given any indication that I cared that you defended me. And I'm not about to start now.

Terez
07-31-2010, 03:55 PM
I have never asked you to defend me. Or thanked you for defending me. Or given any indication that I cared that you defended me. And I'm not about to start now.
I know that Neil. :rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
08-01-2010, 04:11 AM
I know that Neil. :rolleyes:Good way of defending him against the charge of ingratitude.

Neilbert
08-01-2010, 02:02 PM
I love when people do things for their own selfish reasons and then get pissy when you don't thank them for it...

W/E back to topic.

Since Min's vision allows for betrayal, the vision is essentially meaningless. Any one of those included could serve Rand his tea, then immediately stab him in the heart, and the vision would still be fulfilled. The only purpose of the vision that I can see was getting Rand to accept their oaths. Which is probably why Branden felt the need to clarify that it was not intended as a subversion of the vision. The purpose of the vision was not what it seemed.

It also seems to me like too much is going on. We have Sorelia, Shaidar Haran, and Elza all involved in some conspiracy, but really there is no need for all three of them that I can see. If Sorelia taught Elza her weaves, then Shaidar Haran didn't need to be involved in the slightest. Elza or Sorelia could have told Semerhage everything that Shaidar did, and nothing would have gone differently.

Terez
08-01-2010, 02:33 PM
I love when people do things for their own selfish reasons and then get pissy when you don't thank them for it...
Did this happen? If so, I am unaware of it.

Since Min's vision allows for betrayal, the vision is essentially meaningless.
Min's viewings are always important. They all served Rand, just like she said they would.

It also seems to me like too much is going on. We have Sorelia, Shaidar Haran, and Elza all involved in some conspiracy, but really there is no need for all three of them that I can see. If Sorelia taught Elza her weaves, then Shaidar Haran didn't need to be involved in the slightest. Elza or Sorelia could have told Semerhage everything that Shaidar did, and nothing would have gone differently.
Shaidar Haran was necessary to free Semirhage. Also, he was necessary to order the whole thing; I doubt Sorilea or Elza would have come up with it on their own. Presumably it was Moridin's idea, a way of getting his revenge on Semirhage while bringing Rand closer to the dark side.

In any case, the theory is not so much about whether Sorilea would be needed to pull off such a thing (though the fact that she was needed is implied), but more about the coincidence of the timing. Why did Sorilea ask to see it, and why did she ask after the others? Why did she put Cadsuane in her debt in the first place, and then take advantage of that debt for those questions? What are the chances, that the box would be opened (again) the very next day? Add that to the dark language associated with Sorilea, the foreshadowing of a confrontation between Cadsuane and Sorilea, and Verin's thoughts on her, and we would be rather naive not to suspect her.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is a very nice artistic full circle to have Sorilea put Cadsuane in her debt by teaching her a weave that she was not strong enough to make, and then to call in that debt to have Cadsuane teach her another weave she was not strong enough to make, and then have her use it to betray Cadsuane.

Most of us assumed when reading the book that Shaidar Haran was all that was needed to get into the box. Cadsuane assumed that the Forsaken had some way of getting past wards (which we know is not true). On second thought, there is Sorilea. The fact that we are all so reluctant to suspect her is part of what makes me so sure she's a Darkfriend. RJ did good on this one, because there certainly isn't any evidence against he being a Darkfriend, and plenty of clues that she is.

nameless
08-01-2010, 04:19 PM
I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage. As far as Egwene goes, I guess it's a question of which Forsaken is holding her reins. Ishamael put out orders for Egwene to be captured or killed early on in the series and never rescinded them that I'm aware of. Liandrin's coven tried to capture her on his orders in tGH and again under Lanfear's orders in tDR, after which she unexpectedly went to the Waste and dropped off the Darkfriend radar entirely. The Mesaana/Semirhage/Demandred circle, assisted by Aran'gar, used her as a tool to divide the Tower starting in LoC. The problem is the time period after the "take Egwene out of play" order was given and before the "use Egwene as a pawn" plan began, which she spent almost entirely in the company of the Aiel. For most of tSR and FoH, Lanfear was in direct control of the Aiel darkfriends, and since she didn't consider Egwene a threat the same way Ishy did she wouldn't have ordered them to move against her. After her "death" in Carhien, though, when Egwene was completely disabled, Sorilea had the perfect opportunity to finish her off. That suggests that either A) Sorilea had already received new orders from the triumvirate to keep Egwene alive and healthy or B) Sorilea never got the orders to remove Egwene in the first place because she's not a Darkfriend.
The way she reacted to Semirhage's captivity is the real dealbreaker in my opinion, though. It's not just how cool she was about it. After all, she's an incredibly capable woman and that level of dissimulation would be child's play for her. It's the way she gave a piece of advice that proved crucial for Cadsuane to figure out how to break Semi. I know Moridin was mad at her and wanted her to be captured and tortured, but he didn't want her to be broken and interrogated. One could argue that it's a moot point because the plan all along was to break her free and sacrifice her in a head-on attack against Rand, but that plan would have worked just as well if she were set free before Cadsuane broke her will to resist, and to allow her to be broken in the first place would create a substantial risk that she might reveal critical information to her captors before the "rescue" could take place.

edit:
Cadsuane assumed that the Forsaken had some way of getting past wards (which we know is not true). How do we know this is not true again? Was there a POV I missed where one of the Forsaken said "it's a good thing these 3rd Agers aren't going around inventing new wards, because if they did we'd have no way to get past them?"

Neilbert
08-01-2010, 06:04 PM
Did this happen? If so, I am unaware of it.

I would be absolutely stunned if you were. A lack of self awareness is part of the package.

Min's viewings are always important. They all served Rand, just like she said they would.

If you had kept reading, you would notice that I did in fact conclude that the vision was important, just not for the obvious reason.

Shaidar Haran was necessary to free Semirhage.

No, Elza did that. Possibly using, according to you, weaves given to her by Sorilea.

Also, he was necessary to order the whole thing; I doubt Sorilea or Elza would have come up with it on their own.

Why does coming up with it matter? There are many ways for messages to be delivered, we have seen Forsaken get information in their dreams. Shaidar Haran was not necessary.


In any case, the theory is not so much about whether Sorilea would be needed to pull off such a thing (though the fact that she was needed is implied), but more about the coincidence of the timing.

"She seems so much more human than I had anticipated," Sorilea said to Bair. "Her expressions, her tone, her accent, while strange, are easy to understand. I had not expected that."

Semirhage's eyes narrowed for just a moment at that comment. Odd. That was a stronger reaction than virtually any of the punishments had produced. The flashes of light and sound prompted only slight involuntary twitches. This comment of Sorilea's, however, seemed to affect Semirhage on an emotional level. Would the Wise Ones actually succeed so easily where Cadsuane had long failed?

Curious. I'm not sure how I feel about this exchange, though it does raise my interest.

Why did Sorilea ask to see it, and why did she ask after the others?

1. It's a threat to the Car'a'carn. It would be stupid not to be curious.
2. Because if she asked before, they would have had to leave the room and then come back. Unless Sorilea is dumb enough to assume that Cadsuane is dumb enough to keep the device in the same room as Semirhage.

Sorilea hissed quietly, ignoring the statue and focusing on the bracelets and collar. "This thing is evil."

"Yes," Cadsuane said. Rarely would she have called a simple object "evil," but this one was. "Nynaeve al'Meara claims some familiarity with this thing. Though I have not been able to press out of the girl how she knows these things, she claims to know that there was only one male a'dam, and that she'd arranged for its disposal in the ocean. She also admits, however, that she didn't see it destroyed personally. It may have been used as a pattern by the Seanchan."

"This is unsettling to see," Sorilea said. "If one of the Shadowsouled, or even one of the Seanchan, captured him with this. . . .

Why did she put Cadsuane in her debt in the first place,

Because Cadsuane is obviously an Aes Sedai of great standing and competence with her own agenda. You are asking a lot of questions that are really easy to answer.

and then take advantage of that debt for those questions?

See above. Also, duh.

What are the chances, that the box would be opened (again) the very next day?

About 1 in 1.

Add that to the dark language associated with Sorilea,

Aah yes, the auger eyes shared by Egwene?

the foreshadowing of a confrontation between Cadsuane and Sorilea,

Yawwwwwn.

and Verin's thoughts on her,

Double yawwwwn.

and we would be rather naive not to suspect her.

We should suspect everyone who hasn't been outed in a PoV. That doesn't make Sorelia special.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is a very nice artistic full circle to have Sorilea put Cadsuane in her debt by teaching her a weave that she was not strong enough to make, and then to call in that debt to have Cadsuane teach her another weave she was not strong enough to make, and then have her use it to betray Cadsuane.

Personally I find it pretty boring.

On second thought, there is Sorilea.

Except that Elza was taught weaves. Plural. Sorilea could have just taught Elza the weave (singular) to open the box.

Again, since you have given no indication that you are aware this point has been raised, much less responded to it:

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

The fact that we are all so reluctant to suspect her is part of what makes me so sure she's a Darkfriend.

I think someone is overcompensating for missing Verin being Black Ajah. I'm reluctant to suspect Dobraine too, he must be a darkfriend!

As Sorilea closed the door behind the three of them, Cadsuane disarmed the box's traps.

Her new weave was much more versatile. It didn't destroy the items in the box—Cadsuane wasn't certain if they could be destroyed. Instead, the weaves—inverted to be invisible—sprang out in twisting threads of Air and captured anyone in the room when the box was opened.

There isn't even anything to indicate that Sorilea knew how to open the box. Cadsuane could easily have disabled it with an inverted weave; all we know is that she disabled it, Branden declined to specify how. In fact, given the context, that is far more likely. Cadsuane might, and I stress might, be willing to teach Sorelia, but Bair too? That stretches credulity.

because there certainly isn't any evidence against he being a Darkfriend, and plenty of clues that she is.

"We have to do something about that man," Sorilea said, meeting Cadsuane's eyes. "He has grown worse since we last met."

"He has," Cadsuane said. "He's surprisingly accomplished at ignoring my training."

"Then let us discuss," Sorilea said, pulling over a stool. "A plan must be arranged. For the good of all."

"For the good of all," Cadsuane agreed. "Al'Thor himself most of all."

Aaaand here's Sorilea taking the initiative on the teaching Rand laughter and tears front. Yeah, that totally screams "darkfriend".

Terez
08-01-2010, 08:44 PM
I would be absolutely stunned if you were. A lack of self awareness is part of the package.
FYI, I got 'pissy' because you were being a troll. In fact, you still are, just as always.

If you had kept reading, you would notice that I did in fact conclude that the vision was important, just not for the obvious reason.
You say that as though that is not what I have been arguing all along. You didn't change tunes until Brandon confirmed you are a dumbass.

Curious. I'm not sure how I feel about this exchange, though it does raise my interest.
Her treatment of Semirhage was just a way to show Cadsuane how inept she was at handling one of the Forsaken.

1. It's a threat to the Car'a'carn. It would be stupid not to be curious.
Again...timing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the coincidence doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes you a troll.

2. Because if she asked before, they would have had to leave the room and then come back. Unless Sorilea is dumb enough to assume that Cadsuane is dumb enough to keep the device in the same room as Semirhage.
What does this have to do with anything?

Aah yes, the auger eyes shared by Egwene?
No, I didn't mention those in the theory because they are irrelevant.

We should suspect everyone who hasn't been outed in a PoV. That doesn't make Sorelia special.
What makes Sorilea 'special' are the clues that you refuse to acknowledge.

Except that Elza was taught weaves. Plural. Sorilea could have just taught Elza the weave (singular) to open the box.
How do you know it was a singular weave?

There isn't even anything to indicate that Sorilea knew how to open the box. Cadsuane could easily have disabled it with an inverted weave
Cadsuane does not know how to reverse active weaves. They can only invert weaves after they are already made; we didn't even learn about reversing until Demandred did it.

Cadsuane might, and I stress might, be willing to teach Sorelia, but Bair too? That stretches credulity.
Bair cannot channel, dumbass.

Finally, Sorilea has done absolutely nothing to try to help Rand, other than the little nothings she is required to do to make Cadsuane believe she is on her side. As for the plan, it led to Rand almost killing his father and destroying the whole world.

Terez
08-01-2010, 08:51 PM
I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage.
I don't find anything in either that exonerates her. Linda believes her behavior with Egwene is further evidence she's a Darkfriend, as she tried to keep Egwene with the Aiel rather than allowing her to return to her duty. There was nothing to suggest that Sorilea was aware of any orders to kill her in the first place; from what we know of other Darkfriends, it seems highly unlikely that she would be.

As for Semirhage...again, she was required to put on a show for Cadsuane. I addressed this in the theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=133&theo=2714) (which apparently no one has actually read), and in the comments.

Neilbert
08-01-2010, 09:01 PM
Again...timing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the coincidence doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes you a troll.

You know what, shut the fuck up. I never thought I'd put you on my ignore list, but Jesus Christ have you gone out of your way to ask for it.

Terez
08-01-2010, 10:24 PM
Indeed. You are not on mine because you need to be dealt with. If you were ever reasonable about anything, then that would be different, but you are deliberately antagonistic in every single thread that you enter. There is nothing else with you.

Terez
08-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Also, just to clarify....all of this bickering is NOT because you disagree with me. If you disagree with me, that's fine, and I will argue certain points about it, but as I have said elsewhere, I can still see her not being a Darkfriend. But to pretend as if all of the evidence is...'stupid', or whatever you want to call it, is just inane. Either Sorilea is a Darkfriend, or there is a deliberate red herring here. I am not making mountains out of molehills. To come into a debate like this with the attitude that you have is the behavior of a troll. There is no excuse for it.

FelixPax
08-02-2010, 03:34 AM
I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage.

I'd add in Perrin point of view of Sorilea, against her being a darkfriend. Ditto Amys acceptance of Sorilea's leadership just before Dumai Wells, and seeing Amys as an first among equals.

Verin's point of view Sorilea, isn't the in the same league as Amys reactions to Sorilea over the series. Verin barely understands Aiel Culture, while Amys and the other Wise Ones do.

So are you going to next claim Therava was a Darkfriend, instead of something else?

Therava has personally done far worst acts, than Sorilea has ever done. Murdering a Wise One in cold murder, good enough? Yet I haven't seen one thread claim Therava was a Darkfriend.

This theory that Sorilea is a darkfriend, is built on iffy evidence, at best. Yes, I read your write-up Terez. I apprentice the time you devoted to writing it up, however I cannot support this theory.

Terez
08-02-2010, 03:43 AM
I'd add in Perrin point of view of Sorilea, against her being a darkfriend.
What, that she made his blood run cold?

Ditto Amys acceptance of Sorilea's leadership just before Dumai Wells, and seeing Amys as an first among equals.
Sorilea was satisfied that Amys finally accepted that Sorilea was head honcho. Allowing her to be second best was no sacrifice at that point.

So are you going to next claim Therava was a Darkfriend, instead of something else?
I wouldn't be surprised if she was. That she appears to be acting on her own rather than on orders doesn't really mean anything; Therava is a perfect candidate for a Darkfriend, though of course it's possible that she is just plain evil without being a Darkfriend; we don't discuss it because it's too obvious, and because it's now irrelevant to the plot (unlike Sorilea).

I cannot support this theory.
It's okay. I'm not so sure your endorsement would give me much comfort, LOL. ;)

greatwolf
08-02-2010, 11:21 AM
Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.

GonzoTheGreat
08-02-2010, 11:56 AM
Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.The rarely known weaves that Elza was taught could very well be precisely those that Sorilea had just seen.

After all, if the Shadow had known of weaves which could be used to disarm good wards, then Ishamael would have taken Callandor long before Rand was ever born.

One Armed Gimp
08-02-2010, 12:00 PM
Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.

I think he was getting at Elza not being needed as Sorilea could have just done it herself.

Eh, thats pretty weak. I mean if both Elza and Sorilea are DF's and you set this up for Semi, to go down, which is presumably what happened, do really pick Sorilea to go down with her? No, you pick the one that is in least useful position and that's Elza.

Ieyasu
08-02-2010, 01:02 PM
I think he was getting at Elza not being needed as Sorilea could have just done it herself.

Eh, thats pretty weak. I mean if both Elza and Sorilea are DF's and you set this up for Semi, to go down, which is presumably what happened, do really pick Sorilea to go down with her? No, you pick the one that is in least useful position and that's Elza.

Ive been thinking more and more the 'rarely known weaves' provided to her are the method Elza used to incapacitate 3 trained channelers that were actively holding the power and maintaining a shield. We saw a glowing red lighting from under the door and Semirhage herself assumed all three were dead, even though we later found out only the one without a warder was killed outright. Should be interesting to hear what happened when the other two regain consciousness...

Whatever she did to them put them into some state of trance. We have not yet seen glowing red weaves that put ppl into a trance like that. Seems pretty rare and unknown to me...

Cadsuane's ward was a glorified alarm, I can see it being defeated with a few simple weaves that nearly every single channeler knows and can use (sound barrier weave and merely touch it with any weave after that). The alarm weave is nonlethal and doesnt require the proper disarm weaves to defeat it.

Sukoto
08-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Ive been thinking more and more the 'rarely known weaves' provided to her are the method Elza used to incapacitate 3 trained channelers that were actively holding the power and maintaining a shield.
This could be. But since there was some semantic arguing going on earlier about plurals and all that, consider this:

tGS Ch. 23:
"They shouldn't have touched this," Cadsuane said, taking the box from the Maiden. "It was prepared with very intricate wards."

So, along with whatever vagueness Brandon gave us, several rare and unknown weaves alone may have been required to defeat Cadsuane's wards (plural).


Cadsuane's ward was a glorified alarm, I can see it being defeated with a few simple weaves that nearly every single channeler knows and can use (sound barrier weave and merely touch it with any weave after that). The alarm weave is nonlethal and doesnt require the proper disarm weaves to defeat it.
Through all this, knowledge of the Power or cleverness is less important than knowledge of the situation. One could think of triggering a ward and simultaneously negating its effect if one knew what the ward was going to do, but Cadsuane didn't tell anyone, she only thought it for the reader's benefit. I doubt anyone, including the Forsaken, would intentionally trigger a ward if they didn't know what it would do.

Side note: I love a good TL fight. They are so entertaining. It prompts me to ponder why so many human beings are, to a certain extent, entertained by conflict and violence.
:)

nameless
08-02-2010, 04:16 PM
Isn't it because conflict and violence are entertaining?

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2010, 04:12 AM
I think he was getting at Elza not being needed as Sorilea could have just done it herself.

Eh, thats pretty weak. I mean if both Elza and Sorilea are DF's and you set this up for Semi, to go down, which is presumably what happened, do really pick Sorilea to go down with her? No, you pick the one that is in least useful position and that's Elza.Besides, Sorilea probably just did not have the strength to do it.

Unless she has been hiding her true strength, of course. Wouldn't it be fun if it turned out that Sorilea is Mesaana? :p

iokepa
08-03-2010, 11:00 AM
The way she reacted to Semirhage's captivity is the real dealbreaker in my opinion, though. It's not just how cool she was about it. After all, she's an incredibly capable woman and that level of dissimulation would be child's play for her. It's the way she gave a piece of advice that proved crucial for Cadsuane to figure out how to break Semi. I know Moridin was mad at her and wanted her to be captured and tortured, but he didn't want her to be broken and interrogated. One could argue that it's a moot point because the plan all along was to break her free and sacrifice her in a head-on attack against Rand, but that plan would have worked just as well if she were set free before Cadsuane broke her will to resist, and to allow her to be broken in the first place would create a substantial risk that she might reveal critical information to her captors before the "rescue" could take place.


If she is a dark friend - could she just be enjoying the power over one of the Forsaken...excuse me Chosen? From what I've seen most dark friends, if not all, are constantly scheming to come out on top. And power over others is not only a good tool for that purpose, but a pleasurable one for them.

Just a thought...To be honest, I'm still undecided on this theory, but I do enjoy the debate. I would think it an interesting twist though...