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View Full Version : To be or not to be: Chapter 39


GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 04:58 AM
The chapter starts by Egwene jumping to the wrong conclusion: that Verin never held the Oath Rod. Nothing very surprising in that, of course.

Then, right after Verin has proven conclusively that she can tell lies, she tells Egwene that she is BA. Of course, Egwene believes this, since, as AS, Verin can't lie.
However, there might be a small flaw in Egwene's reasoning: since Verin actually can lie (as shown at the end of the preceding chapter), she shouldn't just trust Verin on her word about being BA.

Thus, the question is still open: is Verin BA or is she not BA?
I would say that no, she isn't. Or wasn't (assuming that she died, instead of pulling a "Dragon Reborn trick" and faking it).

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:00 AM
lol....why would she lie about that?

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 05:27 AM
To draw attention away from the one who really poisoned her, of course: Bela Asmodean's Killer. Who, as you may have noticed, is returning triumphant to the WT shortly after.

Alternatively: to save time. Explaining reality to an AS (which Egwene is, by that time) takes forever (at least, longer in some cases). Using a believable lie works far better. In this way, Egwene gets a very good list of BA members, and then can act upon that knowledge. Or die trying.

Well, we do now know what is in that notebook, which is interesting. We still don't know what was in the Dreaming notes that Egwene didn't get, though.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 05:48 AM
I like it. I may be prejudiced by my desire to not see Verin as BA, but I still like it. And it's more sensical than some other theories I've seen.

Jokeslayer
11-02-2009, 06:20 AM
Gonzo: if she isn't Black, why kill herself? If she's going to lie about being Black she can just lie about the Oaths too if Egwene asks, play her "The Shadow is dumb" card and say the Black Oaths don't prevent her from giving away secrets. By the time Egwene finds out she'll already know Verin's lists are accurate. It just makes no sense at this point to assume Verin isn't Black.

Oh, and in Ch 43, Sheriam asks Egwene how she found out about Sheriam being Black. Egwene says Verin told her and Sheriam only responds that she hadn't expected it of her, not with confusion about how Verin knew Sheriam was Black. So it seems kind of a non-starter here.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 06:47 AM
I don't think there is any doubt that Verin was officially a member of the Black Ajah. Whether she really was given her motivations and actions in another question.

To my mind she was an anti black. Normally the BA keep their true allegiance secret, publically proclaim their allegiance to the light while secretly working to destroy it. Verin was exactly the opposite so I wonder is if fair to call her a true black. Perhaps undercover agent would be better. Certainly I doubt that the DO would be too keen on her actions.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 06:54 AM
Sheriam clearly recognized Verin as another Black Ajah member. Odds are that both were on the Black Ajah High Council.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 09:14 AM
I don't think there is any doubt that Verin was officially a member of the Black Ajah. Whether she really was given her motivations and actions in another question.

To my mind she was an anti black. Normally the BA keep their true allegiance secret, publically proclaim their allegiance to the light while secretly working to destroy it. Verin was exactly the opposite so I wonder is if fair to call her a true black. Perhaps undercover agent would be better. Certainly I doubt that the DO would be too keen on her actions.

Wouldn't be too good for Verin if the Dark One can capture her soul either...

JSUCamel
11-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Wouldn't be too good for Verin if the Dark One can capture her soul either...

Can he do that? Didn't we decide that the black cords were necessary for transmigration? And would Verin have those?

I think she either faked it or is toast.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 10:50 AM
Can he do that? Didn't we decide that the black cords were necessary for transmigration? And would Verin have those?

I think she either faked it or is toast.



Originally posted by Tamyrlin
Date: 2005-09-02 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Book Signing | Questioner: Tamyrlin
Q: Ouch...Okay, now that you have killed my black cord theory, are the oath and covenants Forsaken make with the DO necessary for the DO to transmigrate a soul?
A: They are not necessary, but he is not likely to do it for anyone who hasn't done, who hasn't sworn to him.

No cords required. There is also this quote that discusses the Dark One's restraints, but is less relevant to the exact question:

Originally posted by Tamyrlin:

Date: Unknown | Location: Tor.com
Type: Weekly Questions | Questioner: Tamyrlin Illinois
Q: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?
A: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern. After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason. There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

EDIT: Sorry, this is the quote needed:


Originally posted by Tamyrlin:
Tamyrlin: Im trying to verify Rands impression he has at the end of book four, regarding the connection he cuts of Asmodean to the Dark One. He seemed to believe it was the connection directly from that individual to the Dark One. So what I am wondering is, is that connection key to transmigration?

Jordan: No, because what you are thinking of wasnt a connection, Rand thought it was.

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 10:50 AM
I think she either faked it or is toast.Verin is Sammael?
That's a new one, I think. Well done.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 11:05 AM
My question goes a little further. If Verin was Black Ajah, what did she do and for whom was she working? She had a bunch of time to compile her notes, but surely at some point she had to perform some tasks on behalf of the DO.

So what were they? Were any of her actions in the first few books directly ordered by the Shadow?

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2009, 11:28 AM
At one point, Moridin is thinking that he is playing on both sides at once. That probably refers to Verin's presence close to Rand (and to Elza, of course).

But I think that to a large extend, Verin was operating as a loose cannon. She was quite good at being elsewhere when orders were handed out, and she probably avoided being told what to do on a lot of occasions.

That said, I still expect Alanna to drop dead quite soon. Maybe she has, for that matter; I still haven't finished the whole book.