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WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Just like Liandrin, to a limited extent, didn't end up as a chained and whipped damane, I can see an alternate outcome for Suffa. Perhaps she will have another foretelling that will bring her to Fortuona's attention (since she believes in the validity of these from Winter's Heart). And the Seanchan can then realize that some of the prophecies that they are following are rubbish.

That way, more good can come from the attack, and not just an inglorious abrupt ending to Elaida's reign like everyone seems to think.

Davian93
11-02-2009, 09:58 AM
I wonder if Rand's "Binding of the Nine Moons" will now include a demand that all captured AS are released. We know that that prophecy will come true and Rand is human again so he might get all moralistic with Tuon.

creepybob
11-02-2009, 11:53 AM
I wonder if Rand's "Binding of the Nine Moons" will now include a demand that all captured AS are released. We know that that prophecy will come true and Rand is human again so he might get all moralistic with Tuon.

I agree.

I think he'll be coming at the SC from a superior bargaining position and will demand the release of Wise Ones and AS. Dunno if he'll get it or not.

WinespringBrother
11-02-2009, 01:13 PM
Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for Elaida to have to be grateful to Rand if he got her freed, and also in his mercy? If he exiles nobles for making stupid drunken comments, perhaps Elaida will wish for the a'dam again LOL

4Alethinos
11-02-2009, 01:23 PM
This debate suggests why Egwene may be angry with the Dragon Reborn. He will not ask for the return of the chained ones in order to get the alliance that is desparately needed. We will RAFO in the next book on this one. My vote is that he will not ask or he will concede the issue at most.

"He will face the Amyrlin's anger and not care." hehe

Davian93
11-02-2009, 01:31 PM
This debate suggests why Egwene may be angry with the Dragon Reborn. He will not ask for the return of the chained ones in order to get the alliance that is desparately needed. We will RAFO in the next book on this one. My vote is that he will not ask or he will concede the issue at most.

"He will face the Amyrlin's anger and not care." hehe

Could you imagine the meeting of Rand and Egwene if Rand was still cuendillar?

"Egwene, do you believe that if I wished it, the Pattern would stop your heart?"

"Rand, that's ridicu....."

~starts gasping and pounding her chest~

or even funnier...

"The White Tower cannot oppose me!"

~Rand pulls teh OP through the CK key and a beam of cleansing BF obliterates Tar Valon~

Terez
11-02-2009, 01:45 PM
I imagine that her anger is more likely to be over the Seanchan policy of collaring channelers, if it's to do with the Seanchan. He wants to ally with them, but Egwene would be most opposed to that.

Also, I have always assumed that her anger would be over the oaths of fealty that he required of the Aes Sedai with him (or most of them anyway), or the 'extra bit'.

Ivhon
11-02-2009, 01:57 PM
Just like Liandrin, to a limited extent, didn't end up as a chained and whipped damane, I can see an alternate outcome for Suffa. Perhaps she will have another foretelling that will bring her to Fortuona's attention (since she believes in the validity of these from Winter's Heart). And the Seanchan can then realize that some of the prophecies that they are following are rubbish.

That way, more good can come from the attack, and not just an inglorious abrupt ending to Elaida's reign like everyone seems to think.

I personally am quite satisfied with Elaida's "end" and very much hope to never see her again. She cannot be anything but an antagonist, and at this point, we are too far along to have her re-emerge (had the WT resolved itself in, say, Book 8, I might think differently) as an impediment to the protagonists. She has served that function admirably, and at VERY long last the protagonists have overcome that obstacle. Let it lie, I say, rather than turning it into a soap-opera/comic book where you just can't get rid of a character ever.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 02:04 PM
I personally am quite satisfied with Elaida's "end" and very much hope to never see her again.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only problem I have with this is that it's practically the exact same fate as befell Galina just last book.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 02:22 PM
~Rand pulls teh OP through the CK key and a beam of cleansing BF obliterates Tar Valon~

Cleansing tar valon would probably be popular with a lot of people who always distrusted AS and move Rand up in their eyes. Plus less channelers might actually be the key to closing the bore again. All in all, a very good call dav.

I wonder if Rand's "Binding of the Nine Moons" will now include a demand that all captured AS are released. We know that that prophecy will come true

Does Rand have to fulfil those prophecies personally? If Mat and Perrin act on his behalf or even Elyane and Egwene does it come to the same thing?

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 02:30 PM
We seem to have some, seemingly, conflicting prophecies. On one hand we have Rand 'binding the Nine Moons to serve him', but otoh we've got 'the Dragon Reborn shall kneel to the Crystal Throne'. Granted, it's possible that the second set is tainted by Ishy's influence, but is there a possibility of both being correct, or are they mutually exclusive?

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:33 PM
I'd say they're not mutually exclusive. I'm still not sold on the idea that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:35 PM
When Tuon/Fortuan quoted a prophecy about Rand crying on his grave it was from another set aside from the Prophecies of the Dragaon. Ishamael may have corrupted them but it stands to reason that there were native Seanchan prophecies about the Last Battle.

Given that the damane are into fortelling in a bit way the chances of there actually being more prophecies in Seanchan that the rest of the Westlands is quite high I would have though.

Ivhon
11-02-2009, 02:38 PM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only problem I have with this is that it's practically the exact same fate as befell Galina just last book.

Im still ok with it. Its a fitting fate for both of them.

Besides, with this many characters you are bound to double up from time to time on getting taken out.

After all, we have:

2 male Forsaken BF'd along with palatial destruction in TAR...and a 3rd that isnt TOO different even though he didnt bite it in TAR

God knows how many obnoxious Asha'man turning to the Shadow and being blown up somehow.

and probably more patterns that Im too lazy to dig up.

Speaking of patterns, all of our objectionable Red/Black sisters are pretty much interchangeable except perhaps accent. Elaida only misses that mold by not quite being Black. May as well have the same template ending to them as well (and really, Liandrin had kindof a semi-similar fate as well)

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:40 PM
Perhaps Elaida will be freed but only after she has been broken. That might be more just that a lifetime as a damane. She is not exactly forsaken level in her evilness.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 02:40 PM
When Tuon/Fortuan quoted a prophecy about Rand crying on his grave it was from another set aside from the Prophecies of the Dragaon. Ishamael may have corrupted them but it stands to reason that there were native Seanchan prophecies about the Last Battle.

I don't have my book with me at work, but I thought the final prophecy at the end of the book was from the Prophecies of the Dragon. The Seanchan version.

Anyway, I'm with Terez in that I don't think they are mutually exclusive, nor do I think the Seanchan prophecies are entirely corrupted.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:47 PM
I don't have my book with me at work, but I thought the final prophecy at the end of the book was from the Prophecies of the Dragon. The Seanchan version.
From the Essanik Cycle. I don't think the Seanchan have a Karaethon Cycle.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:50 PM
As far as I know Tuon did quote/think about a passage from the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle in one of the earlier books. I'm not sure 100% whats she called it but I thought it was the Karaethon Cycle. General Tylee quoted the wolf king passage in KOD as from the prophecies of the dragon.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:52 PM
As far as I know Tuon did quote/think about a passage from the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle in one of the earlier books. I'm not sure 100% whats she called it but I thought it was the Karaethon Cycle. General Tylee quoted the wolf king passage in KOD as from the prophecies of the dragon. She said it was the Prophecies of the Dragon, not the Karaethon Cycle. The Essanik Cycle is the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon (just looked in TGS and it says that explicitly).

Enigma
11-02-2009, 02:58 PM
Good catch Terez. I wonder why they changed the name? Perhaps more of Ishamael's meddling. On the other hand could it be the case that the Essanik Cycle is just part of the prophecies a bit like say The Gathering Strorm is part of the Wheel of Time. The Karaethon Cycle could be another chapter.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:05 PM
I think that they didn't change the name - they have their own cycle of prophecies based on Foretellings that happened on that continent. People assume that the prophecies were carried overseas and then corrupted, but I think they had their own prophecies all along.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 03:12 PM
Im still ok with it. Its a fitting fate for both of them.

Besides, with this many characters you are bound to double up from time to time on getting taken out.
Oh, it's not the doubling-up I object to, per se. It's more the fact that a long-lasting, pain-in-the-ass Aes Sedai presence finally has her story arc wrapped up in pretty much the same way, at the very end of back-to-back books. :D

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:21 PM
It's more the fact that a long-lasting, pain-in-the-ass Aes Sedai presence finally has her story arc wrapped up in pretty much the same way, at the very end of back-to-back books. :D

Whats to say that we have seen the end of Elaida. I can see her demanding to be freed, she is the Amrylin Seat! That could well attract Fortuna's attention and suddenly Elaida is around when Fortuna interacts with either Rand or Egwene.

As far as the prophecies go I though it was pretty much established that Ishamael had corrupted the set that went with the expedition to Seanchan. It was probably only a small change i.e. Rand serve the nine moons and not the other way around.

Lastly given the size of the Seanchan continent it would make sense that the prophecies Hawkwin's son brought with him would not be the only set of prophecies. After all we have the main Prophecies, the Aiel prophecies and the Sea Folk prophecies in a much smaller landmass.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:22 PM
It is by no means established that the prophecies are corrupted. That idea came out of Tuon's assertion that the Randland prophecies were corrupted because they did not happen to mention Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:25 PM
I think that they didn't change the name - they have their own cycle of prophecies based on Foretellings that happened on that continent. People assume that the prophecies were carried overseas and then corrupted, but I think they had their own prophecies all along.
There's no reason to assume they wouldn't, and all the evidence saying they would. The Sea Folk and Aiel had their own, as did the Amayar (though we don't know exactly what those were about).

I'll have to go back and find the original arguments for prophecy corruption. Was there ever more to it than Isha'mael's boasting?


**ETA**

Just saw Enigma's post...funny. No repeat intended. :)

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:27 PM
Like I just said, there was also Tuon's assertion that the Randland prophecies were corrupted.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:29 PM
Going from memory Rand's version of the prophecies say he will bind the nine moons to serve him. Tuon's version say she will will bind the Dragon to serve the nine moons.

I suppose that they could both be right, they each agree to work together in some fashion but one has to be corrupted if the two passages were in the same book.

I could see it working if say Rand serving the nine moons is in some Seanchan prophecy - not the the Karaethon Cycle and Rand's "bind the nine moons" was in the Karaethon Cycle. I can's see how the same book could say two different things unless one of them is wrong.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Going from memory Rand's version of the prophecies say he will bind the nine moons to serve him. Tuon's version say she will will bind the Dragon to serve the nine moons.

I suppose that they could both be right, they each agree to work together in some fashion but one has to be corrupted if the two passages were in the same book.

I could see it working if say Rand serving the nine moons is in some Seanchan prophecy - not the the Karaethon Cycle and Rand's "bind the nine moons" was in the Karaethon Cycle. I can's see how the same book could say two different things unless one of them is wrong.Tuon's version says Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne. I don't believe it says anything about binding him. Could be wrong, though.

Enigma
11-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Sorry for any confusion. By bind I meant serve the nine moons. The point that I was trying to make though was that one book can't say too diferent things. It would be like in one version of TGS Rand kills Min but in another she lives.

On a slight aside I get that Tuon's training/upbringing did not allow her to bend to serve Rand but I wonder how much of the dark mojo Rand was giving off also convinced her that taking his orders was a bad idea. She seemed freaked out by the dark aura around Rand and not without reason.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 03:40 PM
Whats to say that we have seen the end of Elaida.
That's pretty much what I was getting at, yes. ;) I'll only be disappointed if that is the last we've seen of her.

Sarevok
11-02-2009, 03:44 PM
I agree with the people saying the prophecies don't oppose each other.
There's nothing to say Rand can't kneel to the Crystal throne (or just stumble a little), and let the nine moons serve him after that.
Actually, he might even intentionally decide to kneel, just to appease the Seanchan, and then impose his will.
Or to carry this even further: maybe he makes a deal with Fortuona to publicly kneel to her to appease the Seanchan nobles, while she accepts him as commander during the last battle. :)

bowlwoman
11-02-2009, 03:56 PM
As far as the prophecies go I though it was pretty much established that Ishamael had corrupted the set that went with the expedition to Seanchan. It was probably only a small change i.e. Rand serve the nine moons and not the other way around.

Lastly given the size of the Seanchan continent it would make sense that the prophecies Hawkwin's son brought with him would not be the only set of prophecies. After all we have the main Prophecies, the Aiel prophecies and the Sea Folk prophecies in a much smaller landmass.

Yes, it was established in PoD:

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai'don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al'Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha'man--they had to be disposed of, certainly--waited until al'Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 04:01 PM
Yes, it was established in PoD:
Thanks, Bowly. :)

I think we can safely say that, if Miraj was savvy enough to go through several different volumes of the Cycle once he got here, he's probably not wrong that there are some indisputably major differences. The question still stands, of course, whether they are irreconcilable differences. But I think we can safely assume that, since mention was made of both native Seanchan prophecies and "pure" copies of the Karatheon Cycle, there have been notable changes of some sort.

Nelal Hurcran
11-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Of course, Tuon, The Daughter of the Nine Moons is dead. So Rand cannot bind her to him. Fortuna is, for all intents and purposes, a completely different individual. There is no way for Rand to bind the nine moons anymore. Not unless there is considerably more than nine months left before TG. So it has to have already happened, or that specific line of prophecy was falsified.

Ivhon
11-02-2009, 04:55 PM
Of course, Tuon, The Daughter of the Nine Moons is dead. So Rand cannot bind her to him. Fortuna is, for all intents and purposes, a completely different individual. There is no way for Rand to bind the nine moons anymore. Not unless there is considerably more than nine months left before TG. So it has to have already happened, or that specific line of prophecy was falsified.

Major Point:

He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him."

NOT the daughter of the nine moons. Tuon was the daughter of the nine moons. Fortuona....?

I would say that the prophecy demanded failure with Tuon, the DotM.

lurk
11-02-2009, 04:57 PM
tuon was the daughter of the nine moons, IIRC the seanchan court is called the court of the nine moons

so tuon becoming fortuona did not alter the fact that the nine moons still exsist as a name.

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:22 PM
I think we can safely say that, if Miraj was savvy enough to go through several different volumes of the Cycle once he got here, he's probably not wrong that there are some indisputably major differences. The question still stands, of course, whether they are irreconcilable differences. But I think we can safely assume that, since mention was made of both native Seanchan prophecies and "pure" copies of the Karatheon Cycle, there have been notable changes of some sort.
I don't think so. The only difference mentioned is that the Karaethon Cycle doesn't have the bit about the Crystal Throne. It stands to reason that there will be different prophecies from each continent, but Miraj has made the assumption that the bit about the Crystal Throne was forcibly removed, when there's no real reason to assume that. The original Seanchan prophecies might have been assumed to be corrupted by similar reasoning.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 06:14 PM
I wonder if Rand's "Binding of the Nine Moons" will now include a demand that all captured AS are released. We know that that prophecy will come true and Rand is human again so he might get all moralistic with Tuon.

How about all captured AS, Wise Ones, and no killing of Male channelers freed in exchange for Fortuna getting her husband back? ;)

Mat would love that one! :D

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 06:21 PM
Sorry for any confusion. By bind I meant serve the nine moons. The point that I was trying to make though was that one book can't say too diferent things. It would be like in one version of TGS Rand kills Min but in another she lives.

Well, my point was that the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Why couldn't Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne (which may or may not be Tuon at the time) while later binding her to serve him?

Rand is a smart guy. He might just think of a way to force Tuon into position where she serves him. And kneeling before a throne doesn't always mean that he'll swear fealty.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 06:21 PM
Does Rand have to fulfil those prophecies personally? If Mat and Perrin act on his behalf or even Elyane and Egwene does it come to the same thing?

No he doesn't -- the KC often just refers to "He" and in at least one case, the "He" is clearly Mat and not Rand:

per eWOT/karaethon.html:
CoT,Ch28
"Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky."


Mat also happens to have bound the Nine Moons to himself in the "bonds of holy matrimony."

FWIW, In general, all of the mentions of the "Nine Moons" revealed in Prophecy from any source has been connected to Mat and fulfilled by Mat with Tuon completing the marriage ceremony.


As for "corruption," the corrupted copies are those which disagree with the "pure version brought by Luthair." In other words, they're talking about the KC -- as the Miraj quote explictly states -- when they're talking about the "corrupted prophecies" that don't mention kneeling bfeore the Crystal Throne.

The Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that induces awe for it's occupant in whoever approaches it -- much as Moggy's Glamour version of Compulsion did for Nyneave and Elayne.

RJ said no more trips outside of Randland, so a visit to a ter'angreal in seanchan ain't happening and since Prophecy ALWAYS comes true, tDR kneeling before the crystal throne is a false prophecy.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 06:25 PM
RJ said no more trips outside of Randland, so a visit to a ter'angreal in seanchan ain't happening and since Prophecy ALWAYS comes true, tDR kneeling before the crystal throne is a false prophecy.
Care to back that one up? I'll be interested to see how a book called "Towers of Midnight" doesn't at some point include a visit to Seanchan.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 06:29 PM
Why couldn't Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne (which may or may not be Tuon at the time) ... And kneeling before a throne doesn't always mean that he'll swear fealty.

The "Crystal Throne" is not a methaphor for the Ruler of the Seanchan Empire, it is a specific object in a specific place that has a a very specific effect -- Awe; from BG Miraj's description in the passages cited earlier in this thread, an AWE approaching Compulsion.

If Rand kneels before that particular "Throne" it does mean "swearing fealty" whether he says the words or not.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 06:31 PM
Care to back that one up? I'll be interested to see how a book called "Towers of Midnight" doesn't at some point include a visit to Seanchan.
It's in Terez' database -- which crashes my WIN 98 system so I can't look it up for you.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 06:53 PM
No he doesn't -- the KC often just refers to "He" and in at least one case, the "He" is clearly Mat and not Rand:.

Yes, that's a good one. But I still think the prophecies give RJ plenty of leeway. He can out fox us no matter how closely we try to nail him down.

RJ said no more trips outside of Randland,

That literal? Could Moridin's fortress be considered technically outside of Randland?

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 07:14 PM
That literal? Could Moridin's fortress be considered technically outside of Randland?

Nearly that literal.

It was in response to a question whether we would see Shara, the Isle of Madmen or more of Seanchan or the Seafolk Islands.

I can't access Terez' database and don't remember the exact wording, but the lasting impression is that if it isn't on the Flyleaf Map or in the Threefold Land, it wasn't a planned location.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 07:34 PM
I remeber that one though I cant get into Terez's lib as well. But I wondered whether RJ meant there would be no new plot twists coming from those places rather than not seeing anything of them at all. We still haven't learnt why there's fighting in shara or why Rhuarc considered that good news.

Trutino
11-02-2009, 08:16 PM
I remeber that one though I cant get into Terez's lib as well. But I wondered whether RJ meant there would be no new plot twists coming from those places rather than not seeing anything of them at all. We still haven't learnt why there's fighting in shara or why Rhuarc considered that good news.

There's a bunch of stuff on Seanchan/Shara in the database section under Miscellaneous. The quotes on it don't really definitively prove anything. It's more like RJ would use nonRandland places if it was necessary to tell the story. He kept teasing us by leaving the door just a tiny bit open.

That said, I like to think (and have seen others on these boards suggest) that the title refers to the some of the several towers (and even sets of towers?) in the series. At least two of these (Black and Ghenji) might have their stories at least semi-wrapped up in the next book. Midnight has lots of potential use as a metaphor.

Terez
11-02-2009, 08:23 PM
Care to back that one up? RJ didn't say there would be NO visits to Seanchan - he said there wouldn't be any trips there that are longer than Aviendha's and Rand's trip there. So, there is a possibility of a trip there, and also, there is a possibility that Tuon will go get the Crystal Throne and bring it to Ebou Dar, now that she's captured channelers that know Traveling and named herself Empress.

Quotes:

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997 (http://www.sevenspokes.com/author/chats.html)

Kate from State College PA: In a previous statement I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the lands known to Rand and his friends, i.e., not Shara or Seanchan and yet the new book has a lot of stuff about those lands--have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now?

RJ: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence, like for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.


East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting (http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/jordan/rj-talk2.html)

(http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/jordan/rj-talk2.html)
There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.
He left himself that bit of leeway with Seanchan (not Shara, but Seanchan) in two separate interviews.

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 09:51 PM
I'd say they're not mutually exclusive. I'm still not sold on the idea that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted.

You're kidding right? I was dead certain this was a black-and-whiter. I know there is at least one quote pertaining directly to Ishy changing precisely the line about the Empress being bound to the Dragon into Rand 'kneeling before the Crystal Throne' in the Kareathon Prophecies. I think it was Ishy's POV (unless it was Moridin's) and he was thinking about the few key places he changed things while he was on the boat west over the Aryth. He was looking forward to the fun that would be caused by that complete reversal he made.

Tercel
11-02-2009, 09:52 PM
I'll have to read again more closely, but my impression on first read-through was this:

The Seanchan have two "cycles" of prophesy governing the Dragon reborn. One is full of real and accurate prophesies that have been given by people on the Seanchan continent who have had fortellings (the Essanik Cycle). A pet theory of mine is that this contains some crucial details about how Rand can win which he will need.

The other Seanchan cycle is full of propaganda and has been made up by the Seanchan imperial family over time and falsely claims to have been brought by Luthair Paendrag. It clearly wasn't brought by Luthair, otherwise it would be identical to the Karaethon Cycle... it may be a heavily edited version of the Karaethon Cycle, or may just be made up from scratch. Tuon, I think, is fully aware that this cycle is false propaganda. eg. Hence her attempt to meet the Dragon Reborn as an equal, whereas all the other Seanchan we've seen think the DR bowing before the Crystal Throne is essential.

I know there is at least one quote pertaining directly to Ishy changing precisely the line about the Empress deferring to the Dragon into Rand 'kneeling before the Crystal Throne' in the Kareathon Prophecies. I think it was Ishy's POV (unless it was Moridin's) and he was thinking about the few key places he changed things while he was on the boat west over the Aryth. He was looking forward to the fun that would be caused by that complete reversal he made.What?!? I remember no such thing. Would be very interested in seeing someone produce such a quote.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm still not sold on the idea that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted.I'm definitely not sold on that. Looking forward to seeing which prophecies come true, which don't, or, if none are corrupted, if they all come true.


(On a not-really-believed side-note: It would be INCREDIBLY amusing if it were RANDLAND's prophecies that were corrupted, and the Seanchan ones were the right ones :p)

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 10:31 PM
...it may be a heavily edited version of the Karaethon Cycle, ...

The POV from BG Miraj mentions him comparing "Several copies of the KC printed in these lands." The impression I get from his comment is that there are perhaps three key phrases substituted; the only one we know anything about is the "kneel before the Crystal Throne" phrase.

What?!? I remember no such thing. Would be very interested in seeing someone produce such a quote.

It wasn't an explicit comment about "a doom yet to come" -- which is generally interpreted as the Seanchan invasion and/or the corruption of Luthair's copy of the KC.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 10:36 PM
(On a not-really-believed side-note: It would be INCREDIBLY amusing if it were RANDLAND's prophecies that were corrupted, and the Seanchan ones were the right ones :p)

The entire "corruption" idea is explained by BG Miraj: "until Luthair brought a pure copy"

The "corruption" is the difference between Luthair's single copy -- or the single copy reputed to be his -- and every other copy of the Karetheon Cycle in the World.

Terez
11-02-2009, 10:40 PM
I think there are a lot of things pointing to Rand actually bowing to the Crystal Throne:

1. There's nothing to show conclusively (or, imo, convincingly) that any prophecies are actually corrupted.

2. Tuon has access to Traveling now, and can go get the throne. RJ has also allowed for brief pov trips to Seanchan, comparable to 'The Far Snows' and 'A Short Spear'.

3. 'Order burns to clear his path.' (LoC footer) 'Belief and order build strength.' (Fel, in LoC) Rand has seen now that the Seanchan bring order while he brings chaos.

4. 'Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.' Tuon is convinced that Rand needs to kneel. And really, what is so bad about that? He would have to swallow a bit of pride, but I can see him doing it.

Say, Mat is there, and Rand says, 'So, Mat...is she alright?' And Mat says she's alright. lol. I can see him showing up for another meeting with her, in Ebou Dar, and her trying to sneak it on him, not realizing that it doesn't work on people that can channel, but bowing to her because it's the best thing to do for the world (though I'm sure there would be a stipulation in there about the collaring).

Terez
11-02-2009, 10:45 PM
It wasn't an explicit comment about "a doom yet to come" -- which is generally interpreted as the Seanchan invasion and/or the corruption of Luthair's copy of the KC.
Definitely the Seanchan invasion. However, I still doubt corrupted prophecies, because the Seanchan invasion, while unheard of on the Randland continent, was obviously destined to happen (not sure if that was in their prophecies but it seems to have been). The bit about Rand binding the Nine Moons might not be in their prophecies. So, I find it easier to believe that things were cut from either or any version than that prophecies were forged by Ishamael.

Trutino
11-02-2009, 11:06 PM
When we say corrupted do we always mean by Ishy or do we sometimes mean "the change in meaning to a language or a text introduced by cumulative errors in transcription"?

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 11:19 PM
1. There's nothing to show conclusively (or, imo, convincingly) that any prophecies are actually corrupted.

So the differences in the pre-Luthair KC in Seanchan and Luthair's "Pure Copy" were in fact incorrect and the Seanchan copies of the KC that conform to Luthair's are in fact not corrupted in any way?

BG Miraj said that the KC copies printed in Randland were missing the same thing(s) that pre-luthair seanchan copies were -- kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

An entire continent's copies of the KC were changed to match a single copy that Ishamael plausibly had access to before Luthair sailed and you don't think that is "convincing" evidence of corruption? and which prophecies are corrupted? :eek:

The Seanchan version of the Karetheon Cycle is corrupt because it conforms to the divergent copy in the entire world when the discrepancy was discovered -- the odds of that single divergent copy being the correct version are astronomical!

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 11:29 PM
When we say corrupted do we always mean by Ishy or do we sometimes mean "the change in meaning to a language or a text introduced by cumulative errors in transcription"?

most people mean this:

PoD, Chapter 24
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too...

Luthair's copy should have conformed to the randland copies stored in the Stone of Tear and other libraries Rand has ransacked for copies of the KC that date back to and beyond Hawkwing's empire.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 11:32 PM
The "Crystal Throne" is not a methaphor for the Ruler of the Seanchan Empire, it is a specific object in a specific place that has a a very specific effect -- Awe; from BG Miraj's description in the passages cited earlier in this thread, an AWE approaching Compulsion.

WH- Your interpretation of the "Crystal Throne" seems to differ from the current author's interpretation. Brandon has said the "Crystal Throne" is not only a place, but can be seen as a metaphor for the ruler of the domain as well.

See Brandon's take here: The Gathering Storm - SLC Signing ( look for comments after 8pm) (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-gathering-storm---slc-signing)

Lord Bloodpath
11-02-2009, 11:51 PM
Firstly, thank you WH for making the point about how strange it is to consider serious the possibility that one copy of a book with a great chance of potentially having been tampered with (Ishy had motive and opportunity) is more true to the original or more accurate or even as accurate as every book (that all match each other) in two continents.

That aside, I'm looking all over and still can't find the direct quote I'm looking for but I found a bunch of places that had variations of this
The Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle includes a prophecy that the Dragon will kneel before the Crystal Throne, a corrupted version created by Ishamael. The mainland Prophecies state that he will bind the Nine Moons. The "Crystal Throne" and the "Nine Moons" are both metonymic references to the Seanchan monarchy, so the change has the effect of reversing the passage's meaning.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 12:02 AM
WH- Your interpretation of the "Crystal Throne" seems to differ from the current author's interpretation. Brandon has said the "Crystal Throne" is not only a place, but can be seen as a metaphor for the ruler of the domain as well.

See Brandon's take here: The Gathering Storm - SLC Signing ( look for comments after 8pm) (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-gathering-storm---slc-signing)
again BG Miraj's POV:

PoD, Chapter 24
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai'don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al'Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha'man--they had to be disposed of, certainly--waited until al'Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

The Seanchan's understanding -- at least BG MIraj's understanding -- differs from Brandon's apparent understanding. I can't recall a single instance that there isn't adistinction made between the Throne and the Occupant of the Throne.

I can't do streaming video over a dial-up connection -- I probably can't do it with WIN 98 either; I'll have to wait for a transcript.

Trutino
11-03-2009, 12:15 AM
again BG Miraj's POV:

PoD, Chapter 24
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai'don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al'Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha'man--they had to be disposed of, certainly--waited until al'Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

The Seanchan's understanding -- at least BG MIraj's understanding -- differs from Brandon's apparent understanding. I can't recall a single instance that there isn't adistinction made between the Throne and the Occupant of the Throne

The part about "serving the Crystal Throne" sounds like he means serving the person who holds that position. It seems distinct from when he says "kneeling before the Crystal Throne."

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Yeah, I must admit I'm a bit befuddled why there's so much resistance to the idea that there might be some corrupted copies of the Karatheon Cycle floating around. I mean, it's been 3000 years, people. And we know Ishy was manipulating Luthair's invasion of Seanchan. And one of the themes of the bloody series is how nobody knows as much as they think they do. ;)

Matoyak
11-03-2009, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I must admit I'm a bit befuddled why there's so much resistance to the idea that there might be some corrupted copies of the Karatheon Cycle floating around. I mean, it's been 3000 years, people. And we know Ishy was manipulating Luthair's invasion of Seanchan. And one of the themes of the bloody series is how nobody knows as much as they think they do. ;)I don't think there's all that much "Resistance" and more just a lot of "well maybe they aren't as corrupted as previously thought"

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't think there's all that much "Resistance" and more just a lot of "well maybe they aren't as corrupted as previously thought"
They probably aren't as corrupted as most people think. There is only ONE specific difference cited -- the Crystal Throne passage -- and I've only seen a couple of other differences indirectly mentioned without specifics.

For all practical purposes, the corruption is lmited to the replacement of "bind the nine moons to him" with "kneel before the Crystal Throne."

A change which, if successful, would put Rand out of position and/or under Seanchan control when the Fourth Age dawns at T'G.

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:42 AM
Yeah, I must admit I'm a bit befuddled why there's so much resistance to the idea that there might be some corrupted copies of the Karatheon Cycle floating around.
It's not resistance to the idea - it's resistance to this certainty that everyone seems to have that the Crystal Throne bit ain't happening. I see no reason to assume that.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 12:44 AM
It's not resistance to the idea - it's resistance to this certainty that everyone seems to have that the Crystal Throne bit ain't happening. I see no reason to assume that.
The fact that it derives from a single copy of the KC doesn't make you just a tiny bit sceptical?

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:49 AM
Not skeptical enough to assume that, if indeed the prophecies are 'corrupted', that I know exactly how. I listed all the reasons earlier that I think Rand bowing to Tuon is not unlikely at all.

Neilbert
11-03-2009, 01:25 AM
The Seanchan prophecies have the Seanchan winning the Last Battle, and then sending their pet Dragon in to Shayol Ghul for clean up.

There's a couple reasons we know this certainly isn't happening.

I personally think that the bow before the Crystal Throne will seem fulfilled when Rand asks Tuon to bring order to Arad Domon.

For all practical purposes, the corruption is lmited to the replacement of "bind the nine moons to him" with "kneel before the Crystal Throne."

This seems probable. We know what happens when the Seanchan take over Randland and then march off to the Last Battle, and it ain't victory for the light. It would make sense that Ishy would want them to believe that's how to win it.

Terez
11-03-2009, 01:32 AM
The Seanchan prophecies have the Seanchan winning the Last Battle, and then sending their pet Dragon in to Shayol Ghul for clean up.
That's their interpretation of the prophecies, so far as I can tell - not the actual prophecies.

1Powerslave
11-03-2009, 09:34 AM
I think we have reason enough to trust the prophecies in general. RJ indicate that we can trust the common ones mentioned by several characters at least, the way he talks about them outside the books. The only reason I think we need to be careful of is when it says "much disputed translation" etc. Also, I thought that we assumed that the strange interpretation of the prophecies that the Seanchan have stem from Ishamael corrupting the actual writings of them over there? I.e. a scholar in Seanchan and a scholar in Randland couldn't interpret the prophecies that different.

Terez
11-03-2009, 11:13 AM
I think we have reason enough to trust the prophecies in general. RJ indicate that we can trust the common ones mentioned by several characters at least, the way he talks about them outside the books. The only reason I think we need to be careful of is when it says "much disputed translation" etc.
The only one we have that says 'much disputed translation' was proven true in this book.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 11:19 AM
The only one we have that says 'much disputed translation' was proven true in this book.

The odds are that only a few minor things were changed from the Seanchan version to make it incompatible with the true KC. The Crystal Throne passage is but one line in a multi-volume prophecy but it completely has set Tuon against Rand. Minor pushes create tons of chaos if done correctly...as Ishy would tell you.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Added to that, just a simple change in a dictionary can produce a rather big change in interpretation.

Exodus|22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
On that, the witch hunts of around the year 1500 (give or take a couple of centuries) were based. But according to some modern scholars, the word now translated as "witch" should have been translated as "poisoner". That's quite a big difference, which would have resulted in an entirely different church policy, if that different translation had been used.
Yet both are based on the same original text. Both are translated by people who do not speak old Hebrew as their first language.

Similarly, the KC in Seanchan and Randland is translated by different groups, that may be using somewhat different dictionaries. Of course, it does seem as though the actual text has also been changed in the Seanchan case, but that need not be the only source of controversy.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Not skeptical enough to assume that, if indeed the prophecies are 'corrupted', that I know exactly how. I listed all the reasons earlier that I think Rand bowing to Tuon is not unlikely at all.
Miraj's implication that the way to tell if a copy of the KC is corrupted is to look up the chapter and verse dealing with who serves whom doesn't demonstrate "how" the KC is corrupted and the comment about "Luthair's Pure Copy" doesn't condemn any copy of the KC that conforms to to Luthair's corrupt copy as corrupted?

More specifically, doesn't the fact that "Kneels before the crystal throne" is THE disputted passage that derives from Luthair's single copy make that one specific prophesy absolutely false and put it in the "can't happen" category.

to use Gonzo's example:

Exodus|22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Is the wording in the King James version of the Bible. That is the "Bible" that all other english translations are judged against.

As far as the Inquisition was concerned, a test for corruption would be to look at Exodus|22:18 and see if it says "Witch" or something else.

If Exodus were Prophecy then the difference between 'Witch' and <something else> would then be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't seem to be a case of disputed translation, because Miraj knows exactly where to go to check for corruption, so it wouldn't seem to be a passage where translation is in much doubt.

Enigma
11-03-2009, 04:01 PM
If Ishamael was behind altering the Seanchan version of the prophecies the change would be small. What difference would it make if he had put in a passage that said for example "the stone will not fall until the descendents of hawkwing return".

Rand would not have access to that version when it came time to draw Callandor and the Seanchan might get a bit suspicious of their version when they landed only to discover Rand had already taken the Stone.

I think that some people might be overcomplicating things. We have one set of prophecies that say Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him, while there is another set that says he will kneel to the Crystal Throne. They are from the same book not to different sets of propheices so its not a case that both will happen. One of the books is wrong.

The difference might be subtle but without it the Seanchan forces would be allied with Rand by now. Tuon is way to supersticious to ignore prophecies. Such a subtle difference causing such massive damage had Ishamael's fingerprints all over it, its very much his style.

Callandor
11-03-2009, 07:30 PM
4. 'Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.' Tuon is convinced that Rand needs to kneel. And really, what is so bad about that? He would have to swallow a bit of pride, but I can see him doing it.

I read this as Rand forcing the proud to yield -- which he's done several times. Not as Rand being the proud one forced to kneel.

While Rand knows the Seanchan bring order, that doesn't mean he will kneel. Just that he wants to ally with them, as he always did.

It can go either way, as others have said that their not completely exclusive, but I'm more convinced that the copies Luthair brought were at least influenced by Ishamael. Seanchan obviously had their own prophecies in their mainland that are genuine. But we do have reasons to be skeptical here.

Maybe they weren't as corrupted as thought, obviously. But this section seems quite apparently manipulated. It would be just too perfect for Ishamael to do, really.

As for Tuon being the Crystal Throne, I'd say no. Unless Brandon said so (possible, but I haven't seen it), it's an object. We can go have an expedition for it, and it could happen off screen, but I doubt Tuon herself qualifies as the object to fulfill the prophecy if it is valid. If that one is to come true, I'd say Tuon would either send some people to go fetch it once Traveling is discovered (a la Egwene going for the Oath Rod off screen) and bringing it to Ebou Dar, not everyone going to Seanchan for the scene.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Marie Curie 7
11-03-2009, 08:58 PM
WH- Your interpretation of the "Crystal Throne" seems to differ from the current author's interpretation. Brandon has said the "Crystal Throne" is not only a place, but can be seen as a metaphor for the ruler of the domain as well.

See Brandon's take here: The Gathering Storm - SLC Signing ( look for comments after 8pm) (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-gathering-storm---slc-signing)

Unless there was another question at the SLC signing about the Crystal Throne, what Brandon was asked about was the Court of Nine Moons, not the Crystal Throne.

Here's the transcript and a link to the specific video (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2481322) (the question about the Court of the Nine Moons starts at about 06:28).



Tam: Is the Court of the Nine Moons something that moves with the Empress? In other words, wherever the Empress is holding court, is that the Court of the Nine Moons?

BS: I think that would be subject to debate depending what the … see, the… I think that if the Empress were to declare herself on a different continent, she would expect that it would, and I think there would be those who would argue with her and wouldn't expect that it would. Does that make sense?

Tam: Yep.

BS: So, my answer would be yes, it would move with the Empress, but there would be those who would disagree with me and with the Empress, May She Live Forever.


So, if there is another question, then please post the transcript and the specific video link. Otherwise, there was nothing mentioned about the Crystal Throne.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 09:35 PM
Which may or may not help out, but it should be useful...if I could find the time to transcribe it.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 09:44 PM
As for Tuon being the Crystal Throne, I'd say no. Unless Brandon said so (possible, but I haven't seen it), it's an object. We can go have an expedition for it, and it could happen off screen, but I doubt Tuon herself qualifies as the object to fulfill the prophecy if it is valid.

Not that I disagree with you, but rulers of countries have been known to be referred to as the "throne of [country]". I've been pondering this particular prophecy for years now, and I've often wondered if RJ put this in there intending the "throne" to be the actual ruler as opposed to the physical object. I'm not convinced that's true, but it's precisely the kind of thing RJ might do.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 11:06 PM
Unless there was another question at the SLC signing about the Crystal Throne, what Brandon was asked about was the Court of Nine Moons, not the Crystal Throne.

Here's the transcript and a link to the specific video (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2481322) (the question about the Court of the Nine Moons starts at about 06:28).



So, if there is another question, then please post the transcript and the specific video link. Otherwise, there was nothing mentioned about the Crystal Throne.
Thank you, Marie.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 11:14 PM
Not that I disagree with you, but rulers of countries have been known to be referred to as the "throne of [country]". I've been pondering this particular prophecy for years now, and I've often wondered if RJ put this in there intending the "throne" to be the actual ruler as opposed to the physical object. I'm not convinced that's true, but it's precisely the kind of thing RJ might do.
The thrones of most countries aren't ter'angreal intended to impose loyalty either.

The Throne is generally referenced with regard to ruling when multiple reigns/monarchs are being referenced. Also an Oath to a government or dynasty might be made to the "throne" rather to the specific ruler of the moment.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 11:24 PM
The thrones of most countries aren't ter'angreal intended to impose loyalty either.

The Throne is generally referenced with regard to ruling when multiple reigns/monarchs are being referenced. Also an Oath to a government or dynasty might be made to the "throne" rather to the specific ruler of the moment.

Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying it's possible.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 11:47 PM
Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying it's possible.
Not accordingging to the information RJ gave us through BG Miraj's POV.

The Corruption of the KC Prophecies is clearly set up as a situation Rand must avoid. If he kneels before the Crystal Throne, Ishamael wins.

It has served part of its purpose by setting the Seanchan expectations so they are plotting and planning to force the issue if necessary, and that is impeding the fulfillment of several other Foretellings about the land being divided SW and NE.

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:19 AM
I read this as Rand forcing the proud to yield -- which he's done several times. Not as Rand being the proud one forced to kneel.
Well, obviously. The point is that the prophecy is making all of these things out to be a BAD THING, lol. Hence the heart of stone needing to remember tears, and the soul of fire, love.

Also, whether or not the prophecy is correct, Tuon is convinced that it is correct, and unless it is somehow explained to her that the prophecy was corrupted by Ishamael, then I doubt she'll want to give up on it. After all, the fate of the world rests on the prophecies.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 04:59 AM
I suspect that the actual original of the Prophecies is somewhere in the WT. If Tuon figures out that the oldest example of her version is only from the time of Hawkwing and Luthair, then she may start wondering a bit.

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:03 AM
Possibly. I think it more likely that Rand will summon enough humility to kneel to her, though - I do, however, think that he will get some conditions out of her first.