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Terez
11-02-2009, 02:02 PM
Now that we know for sure that Rand's tie to the land is physical rather than simply metaphorical....what do you guys think of my theory that Dragonmount will blow when Rand dies?

I love how he stared down the maw of the volcano while he had his moment there at the end. Lava pit and everything. :D

Anyway, the 'land is one' prophecy actually goes on to mention the heart of stone etc:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
EPIGRAM

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

- From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.
Of course, the little moment that he had on Dragonmount will probably fix the problem with food spoilage, at least, and no crops growing. But if the land is one with the Dragon, and v/v, then won't his death have a major impact on the land itself? Why not Dragonmount?

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 02:29 PM
If the shadow caused his death, then the shadow might "kill" the Land as well. Yet that might not happen immediately but its likely we may see the effects of the absence of a major taveren in the next book.

Given the way the pattern responds to BF, Mat and Perrin may just become stronger taveren.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 02:37 PM
If the shadow caused his death, then the shadow might "kill" the Land as well. Yet that might not happen immediately but its likely we may see the effects of the absence of a major taveren in the next book.

Given the way the pattern responds to BF, Mat and Perrin may just become stronger taveren.
Uh...OK. Do you mean that Mat and Perrin will take over "influencing" the land?

As for Dragonmount, I don't see any ironclad reason for it to erupt upon Rand's death, other than some nice literary symmetry. I just kept wondering about all the visions of a mountain with a hole in the side and whether everyone was mixing up Shayol Ghul with Dragonmount all this time.

Also, did Rand do any crying when he almost killed Tam? If so, it would be highly interesting for him to remember tears in the Stone of Tear, then remember laughter on Dragonmount (with it's fiery soul).

One with the land, indeed.

Terez
11-02-2009, 02:42 PM
As for Dragonmount, I don't see any ironclad reason
No one said it was ironclad. But I thought it would erupt before we knew for sure that Rand's link with the land was literal, just because it's awfully strange to make a volcano such a huge part of the series and then never have it erupt.

I just kept wondering about all the visions of a mountain with a hole in the side and whether everyone was mixing up Shayol Ghul with Dragonmount all this time.
Mixing them up in relation to what?

Also, did Rand do any crying when he almost killed Tam?
No, but he did finally face his responsibility for the Kinslaying, which he has been internally weeping over all this time. I somehow doubt that the laughter and tears thing is unresolved. The prophecy doesn't even mention the laughter - just says tears and love.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:06 PM
No one said it was ironclad. But I thought it would erupt before we knew for sure that Rand's link with the land was literal, just because it's awfully strange to make a volcano such a huge part of the series and then never have it erupt.
Maybe it's a metaphor for something. ;)


Mixing them up in relation to what?

I'm not really sure as it's more of an impression than rational though, however I mean with regard to dreams, prophecies, and the like. I suppose I should go back and find out which ones I mean, so I can prove myself wrong.

No, but he did finally face his responsibility for the Kinslaying, which he has been internally weeping over all this time. I somehow doubt that the laughter and tears thing is unresolved. The prophecy doesn't even mention the laughter - just says tears and love.

Do you mean that you doubt it is resolved, or that you think it is resolved?

Sorry, I meant love, not laughter. Rand discovered the secret of love up there.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Maybe it's a metaphor for something. ;)
That's what some people said about 'the Dragon is one with the land'. ;)

I'm not really sure as it's more of an impression than rational though, however I mean with regard to dreams, prophecies, and the like. I suppose I should go back and find out which ones I mean, so I can prove myself wrong.
I can't recall any prophecies that we have assumed to be about Shayol Ghul. The prophecies generally state Shayol Ghul explicitly, with the exception of the blood on 'black rock' thing, which can be tied of course to the ones that say 'Shayol Ghul' explicitly.

Do you mean that you doubt it is resolved, or that you think it is resolved?
I meant what I said.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:12 PM
I meant what I said.

You said:

I somehow doubt that the laughter and tears thing is unresolved. The prophecy doesn't even mention the laughter - just says tears and love.
Sorry, it was a bit of an unclear double-negative. Or at least a weird form of passive voice.

It makes sense now. Sort of.

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:14 PM
I know what I said. It's clear English - I doubt it's unresolved.

Belazamon
11-02-2009, 03:16 PM
Maybe it's a metaphor for something. ;)
Hey now. Sometimes a giant, unnatural volcano is just a giant, unnatural volcano.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:20 PM
I know what I said. It's clear English - I doubt it's unresolved.
I know you know what you said. It's not as clear as you think, obviously, because I didn't understand it at first and I don't normally have reading comprehension problems.

Asking for clarification isn't insulting, is it?

Terez
11-02-2009, 03:21 PM
Nope, it isn't - just saying, it's clear English.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 03:22 PM
Uh...OK. Do you mean that Mat and Perrin will take over "influencing" the land?.

There were 3 taveren. Now there're two. The pattern will probably continue weaving around the two. And since's Rand's death is prophecied/planned, then stands to reason the pattern is ready for it. There may be a backlash, but it shouldn't cause the pattern to unravel. Not even close, IMO.

Crispin's Crispian
11-02-2009, 03:30 PM
There were 3 taveren. Now there're two. The pattern will probably continue weaving around the two. And since's Rand's death is prophecied/planned, then stands to reason the pattern is ready for it. There may be a backlash, but it shouldn't cause the pattern to unravel. Not even close, IMO.
OK. I'm still not sure what this has to do with the original discussion,though. What does it have to do with the Land and Dragonmount?

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 03:49 PM
Of course, the little moment that he had on Dragonmount will probably fix the problem with food spoilage, at least, and no crops growing. But if the land is one with the Dragon, and v/v, then won't his death have a major impact on the land itself? Why not Dragonmount?

Food spoiling is due to big bad taveren. In death, he's no longer taveren (is he?) so no taveren efefect whatsioever. So everything will probably settle around Mat and Perrin now.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 05:08 PM
Now that we know for sure that Rand's tie to the land is physical rather than simply metaphorical....what do you guys think of my theory that Dragonmount will blow when Rand dies?

Would you remind me how we know that for sure (the one with the land physical part)?

That Dragonmount will blow when Rand dies can be easily explained by its current volatile state and the presumable disruption in the Pattern Rand's death would cause.
However I don't particularly like the idea because I think it's cheesy.

Now that all this talking about Rand is one with the land is in fashion, I wonder what is then left to be the Dark One's touch?
The unnatural seasons, and the food spoilage, the ghosts, the weird bubbles of evilish events, are still the Dark One's touch. Right?
Previously Rand has been able to alter chance to make freak things happen. When Rand became "dark" only the bad freak things seemed to happen. Is it that Rand now alter chance that all the Dark One's touch tings happen more often?

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:16 PM
Would you remind me how we know that for sure (the one with the land physical part)?
BS confirmed it at one of the book signings.

Now that all this talking about Rand is one with the land is in fashion, I wonder what is then left to be the Dark One's touch?
The unnatural seasons, and the food spoilage, the ghosts, the weird bubbles of evilish events, are still the Dark One's touch. Right?
I think at least some of that has to do with balefire. The food spoilage was Rand though, for sure - and I need to check, but I think BS implied that the seasons had to do with Rand as well.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 05:28 PM
BS confirmed it at one of the book signings.


I think at least some of that has to do with balefire. The food spoilage was Rand though, for sure - and I need to check, but I think BS implied that the seasons had to do with Rand as well.a) Okay.
b) I'm worried that the Dark One's influence on the world is being down played. All these things that we thought were the Dark One touching the Pattern, seemingly now has other possible explanations. Pretty soon we'll come to this; Had the Wheel never spun Rand out again, the Dark One would be safely locked away and the world would be safe. That worries me in all of this. I don't like the story taking that turn. It is beginning to look like an overlooked flaw in the series. I.e. why would the Wheel would send out an unneeded corrective mechanism in the ta'veren. If Rand really IS needed, then it follows that the Dark One would continually gain more influence over the Pattern (slowly remaking it in his own images? The Blight advancing, the Dark One's touch we are seeing in the world now). And if he's not be able to break free completely eventually (as every Randlander think the prophecies say), at least the Pattern will eventually be remade in his image.

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:30 PM
I think you are overly obsessed with finding flaws in the series. And, of course, it's only your opinion that these are actually 'flaws'.

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 05:33 PM
I think you are overly obsessed with finding flaws in the series. And, of course, it's only your opinion that these are actually 'flaws'.
Well, I think you and many like to make excuses for the authors. :)
Of course I don't want to find flaws, but when in analyse mode, like when theorizing, we are indirectly looking for them.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 05:36 PM
Actually, Moridin's pov in tPoD is clear that the DO fixed the seasons in place. So that's not one of them.

Terez
11-02-2009, 05:38 PM
Just seems to me that there are a few things that we found out in this book that weren't exactly what you always thought they were, so you decided they were 'flaws' in the series. I seem to recall you saying something similar about Lews Therin. :)

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 05:45 PM
b) I'm worried that the Dark One's influence on the world is being down played. All these things that we thought were the Dark One touching the Pattern, seemingly now has other possible explanations. Pretty soon we'll come to this; Had the Wheel never spun Rand out again, the Dark One would be safely locked away and the world would be safe. That worries me in all of this. I don't like the story taking that turn. It is beginning to look like an overlooked flaw in the series. I.e. why would the Wheel would send out an unneeded corrective mechanism in the ta'veren. If Rand really IS needed, then it follows that the Dark One would continually gain more influence over the Pattern (slowly remaking it in his own images? The Blight advancing, the Dark One's touch we are seeing in the world now). And if he's not be able to break free completely eventually (as every Randlander think the prophecies say), at least the Pattern will eventually be remade in his image.

Actually, I'm strangely okay with all this being Rand.

A thought that occasionally popped up in my mind but was routinely ignored was: they need to break the Seals before the Bore can be properly closed, ok, fine, but doesn't that just mean that everything will go back to the way it was before LTT struck at Shayol Ghul? I mean, yeah, there was war going on, THE war, but things didn't seem to be nearly as bad as it was now.

The seasons didn't refuse to progress, no reports of food just decaying, etc. I mean, it was years, if not decades between the Bore and the Strike, and while the DO's influence was unchecked due to the Bore, things didn't seem to quite degenerate as much as they currently are.

To find out that it was Rand's Fisher King effect on the world, that it was the corruption or his body and mind that was causing the chaos in the land, actually sits quite perfectly with me. Actually, take that back a step, it's not just Rand. With Elaida in charge of the Tower things were completely chaotic there to the point of millienia old buildings randomly swapping levels and sections of themselves around, so it need not just be Rand. It could quite simply be the more chaotic the situation is, the more chaotic the land is. Rand might be a focal point for it, but he need not be there for the chaos to spread.

Something else I'm reminded of is the game Wizardry. The 6th, 7th & 8th parts of the game form one overarching story line in where some evil being, the Dark Savant was hunting down certain cosmic items with which the god, Phoonzang (one of the Cosmic Lords), used to create the universe. After playing through all of it, trying to thwart the Dark Savant you come to the big reveal: the Dark Savant is Phoonzang, the god that created the universe only to have been cast out by the rest of the Cosmic Lords and he's since spent all that time trying to reascend to the immortal plane. The idea behind all of this? What if the Dark One is actually the Creator who's been somehow locked out of his own creation and is trying to get back in/destroy it?

1Powerslave
11-02-2009, 06:22 PM
Actually, I'm strangely okay with all this being Rand.

A thought that occasionally popped up in my mind but was routinely ignored was: they need to break the Seals before the Bore can be properly closed, ok, fine, but doesn't that just mean that everything will go back to the way it was before LTT struck at Shayol Ghul? I mean, yeah, there was war going on, THE war, but things didn't seem to be nearly as bad as it was now.

The seasons didn't refuse to progress, no reports of food just decaying, etc. I mean, it was years, if not decades between the Bore and the Strike, and while the DO's influence was unchecked due to the Bore, things didn't seem to quite degenerate as much as they currently are.
I agree that breaking the Seals will likely return the state of the Dark One's prison and influence to what it was when the Hundred Companion's struck. But what do we know of how things was then? Not much I think. We do know that the Light high council of the Age of Legends thought that the Dark One's influence gave the Shadow an incredible edge in the war and I think they also thought he would soon break free. We know that the imminent defeat in the war was what prompted the LTT to seal the Bore, not the Dark One escaping. But at the same time I think that the Bore and the Dark One's influence was much more than just dividing the world into to opposing factions. And I think it is stated that they of the Age Of Legends thought that the Dark One would break free if left unchecked.

To find out that it was Rand's Fisher King effect on the world, that it was the corruption or his body and mind that was causing the chaos in the land, actually sits quite perfectly with me. Actually, take that back a step, it's not just Rand. With Elaida in charge of the Tower things were completely chaotic there to the point of millienia old buildings randomly swapping levels and sections of themselves around, so it need not just be Rand. It could quite simply be the more chaotic the situation is, the more chaotic the land is. Rand might be a focal point for it, but he need not be there for the chaos to spread.
I got no problem with ta'verenness affecting the world and the land in general. Chaos does fit as an unraveller of the weave. A chaotic weaving is not a pattern etc.
But I'm not fond of these contradictions popping up. The Wheel spinning out a corrective mechanism that incite chaos instead of order, and that the corrective mechanism actually isn't needed for the Dark One to stay contained.

Something else I'm reminded of is the game Wizardry. The 6th, 7th & 8th parts of the game form one overarching story line in where some evil being, the Dark Savant was hunting down certain cosmic items with which the god, Phoonzang (one of the Cosmic Lords), used to create the universe. After playing through all of it, trying to thwart the Dark Savant you come to the big reveal: the Dark Savant is Phoonzang, the god that created the universe only to have been cast out by the rest of the Cosmic Lords and he's since spent all that time trying to reascend to the immortal plane. The idea behind all of this? What if the Dark One is actually the Creator who's been somehow locked out of his own creation and is trying to get back in/destroy it?I'm not sure what I think of this idea. But I guess it'd work just as well as the Creator being the gardener and the Dark One just being evil.

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 06:42 PM
I got no problem with ta'verenness affecting the world and the land in general. Chaos does fit as an unraveller of the weave. A chaotic weaving is not a pattern etc.

But I'm not fond of these contradictions popping up. The Wheel spinning out a corrective mechanism that incite chaos instead of order, and that the corrective mechanism actually isn't needed for the Dark One to stay contained.

It's not that Rand's appearence frees the Dark One, it's that he's sped up the breakdown of the Seal on the DO's prison. It's quite likely, due to the corrupting nature of the Taint that the Seal would have rotted away itself given time. Seeing as how the Chosen One likely has to channel to fix things, it merely acted as a catalyst to the whole thing and sped up the process, but, since he's around, he, and the others, can fix things and properly seal the DO away this time.

As for the other, just me being me with the random looniness.

Weird Harold
11-02-2009, 06:58 PM
But I'm not fond of these contradictions popping up. The Wheel spinning out a corrective mechanism that incite chaos instead of order, and that the corrective mechanism actually isn't needed for the Dark One to stay contained.

T'G is approaching, and it is NOT Rand or the DO that determines the timing.

T'G is, IMHO, a "cosmological event" -- an alignment of signs and planets; the "worlds of IF" collapsing back into a single reality; the Great Cycle of the Mayan Calendar running down, again; the light from some cosmic coliison finally reaching shayol Ghil; or some other fixed and immutable moment when outside forces align to enable the DO to break free without Rand's intervention.

The three Amigos weren't spun out and made ta'veren to block the DO's one chance for freedom this Turning, and they ARE going to be needed and they will block his bid for freedom if they get their act together in time.

greatwolf
11-02-2009, 07:26 PM
That the dragon is literally tied to the land, what do the wounds in Rand's side mean? Apart from the two types of evil in the land?

Are those bonded to Rand tied to the Land as well or is the land tied only to the specific physical body the dragon posseses?

ShadowbaneX
11-02-2009, 08:24 PM
That the dragon is literally tied to the land, what do the wounds in Rand's side mean? Apart from the two types of evil in the land?

Are those bonded to Rand tied to the Land as well or is the land tied only to the specific physical body the dragon posseses? actually, I wouldn't say that it means anything, and I wouldn't get completely locked up in the idea that Rand is literally tied to the land.

First off, about the wounds, well, in the last book Rand lost his hand. Now, while we might not have heard about cause it's a big world and we're only focusing on one small part of it, I still think it's likely that we would have heard about a part of it being annihilated. Keeping that idea in mind it's probably not Rand's physical body that's tied to the land, so it's probably safe to assume that the the wounds on his body are just (supernaturally evil) wounds.

Secondly, as I posted...somewhere, one of the biggest examples of the land being in turmoil recently was Tar Valon. There's been some bad examples in other places, ghosts, rotting food, etc. but in the Tower itself sections of it were literally swapping around and the corridors were randomly rearranging themselves. In this particular case has likely nothing to do with Rand, but instead has to do with the blind woman, Elaida. Her time as Amyrlin was one of the most divisive and chaotic in history and there were physical reflections of it in the way reality warped around and then rebuilt itself.

Granted, yes, the grain in Bandar Eban did simultanous spoil when Rand was leaving, but nothing about his body was afflicted when it happening. Likely, the loss of order of his decision to leave the place without tracking down enough of the Council of Merchants and the resulting inabiltiy to put a King on the Throne means that land is about to decend into chaos. This is especially true, with the Seanchan and the prowl and the Council about to try to go to civil war to ensure their own base of power. It's that chaos, not anything happening to Rand's body, that is causing the foul things afoot.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 09:59 PM
@Terez's original point:
Not so sure about the whole Rand death part (not saying he WON'T die, just sayin' I'm not convinced either way) but Dragonmount is GOING to go kaboom, if I read one of Min's visions right... Then again, it could have been showing Rand's eventual "bathed in light" sequence as well. But something about Dragonmount and the clouds, and how the clouds were so much higher up, and Dmount seemed so much shorter and there was a gaping hole...I dunno, maybe I read it too fast and it wasn't about Dmount going boom, but that's the impression I got.

Terez
11-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Dragonmount is GOING to go kaboom, if I read one of Min's visions right... Then again, it could have been showing Rand's eventual "bathed in light" sequence as well.
Pretty sure that's what she saw:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 37 - A Force of Light

The air shimmered above Rand, and a mountain appeared there. Viewings were so common around Rand that Min usually forced herself to ignore them unless they were new - though she did spend time some days trying to pick them all out and sort through them. This one was new, and it caught her attention. The towering mountain was blasted out on one side, making a jagged hole down the slope. Dragonmount? It was cloaked in dark shadows, as if shaded by clouds high above. That was odd; whenever she'd seen the mountain, it had reached higher than the clouds themselves.

Dragonmount in shadows. It would be important to Rand in the future. Was that a tiny prick of light shining from the heavens down onto the point of the mountain?

The viewing vanished. Though Min knew what some of them meant, this one baffled her.
I got the same impression when I read it, but that's because I didn't know what was going to happen at the end. ;) Also, I knew Dragonmount had a jagged peak, but I don't recall it ever having been mentioned before that a side of the mountain was blown out. Maybe only because this is the first time we've seen it up close...

Trutino
11-02-2009, 11:36 PM
I got the same impression when I read it, but that's because I didn't know what was going to happen at the end. ;) Also, I knew Dragonmount had a jagged peak, but I don't recall it ever having been mentioned before that a side of the mountain was blown out. Maybe only because this is the first time we've seen it up close...

It's possible that Rand sitting with the light coming down is not happening simultaneously with whatever made Dragonmount shorter. The way she describes DM she sounds like she's talking about Mt. St Helens after it blew off a decent portion of its height. Do all components of a viewings come to pass at the same time?

Terez
11-02-2009, 11:49 PM
Rand described the mountain the exact same way when he was on it.

Matoyak
11-02-2009, 11:57 PM
Rand described the mountain the exact same way when he was on it.Not sure about how exact the descriptions of the mountain itself are, but it fits way too well with what happened at the end of the book. ~sigh~ Ah well. Looks like spirit bomb levels of bar-o-light ( Dragon Soul Corporation) is the answer to that viewing.

Trutino
11-03-2009, 12:19 AM
So, DM either got shorter or the clouds got higher but there was no eruption? No eruption yet? What's going on?

wolfbrother369
11-03-2009, 12:23 AM
a) Okay.
b) I'm worried that the Dark One's influence on the world is being down played. All these things that we thought were the Dark One touching the Pattern, seemingly now has other possible explanations. Pretty soon we'll come to this; Had the Wheel never spun Rand out again, the Dark One would be safely locked away and the world would be safe. That worries me in all of this. I don't like the story taking that turn. It is beginning to look like an overlooked flaw in the series. I.e. why would the Wheel would send out an unneeded corrective mechanism in the ta'veren. If Rand really IS needed, then it follows that the Dark One would continually gain more influence over the Pattern (slowly remaking it in his own images? The Blight advancing, the Dark One's touch we are seeing in the world now). And if he's not be able to break free completely eventually (as every Randlander think the prophecies say), at least the Pattern will eventually be remade in his image.

I have to disagree with your conclusions.

I think of it more like I always have when the first bubble of evil apeared and attacked rand and perrin and matt. And moiraine explained that theses bubbles where more likely to apear around ta'verin. The DO's influence is there with or without the ta'verin, and would eventually tear the pattern asunder without the corrective influence of ta'verin. It only makes sense that that influence would pool so to speak in the deeper parts of the pattern where the ta'verin are.

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:39 AM
So, DM either got shorter or the clouds got higher but there was no eruption? No eruption yet? What's going on?
Are you being a spoiler whore, or do you just not remember what happened?

No, it hasn't erupted, but the volcano apparently has the appearance of one that has erupted before. I would think that it shouldn't, since it hasn't erupted since it was made. That kind of break in the side of a volcano is what happens when the pressure inside builds up so much that it blows out a portion of the mountain when it erupts (like what happened with Mt. St. Helens).

Also of interest:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

He could feel the palace around him shaking from the earth's own sobs. Or was that Dragonmount, throbbing from the immense power he had drawn into himself?
It is so going to blow.

As for the clouds, they only broke after the integration, and after Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal. They were higher than Dragonmount, but it was noted that this was unnatural - the 'dockmaster's sky' that Siuan referred to a couple of times in the book. It seems to be pretty much everywhere now.

Trutino
11-03-2009, 12:47 AM
Are you being a spoiler whore, or do you just not remember what happened?

No, it hasn't erupted, but the volcano apparently has the appearance of one that has erupted before. I would think that it shouldn't, since it hasn't erupted since it was made. That kind of break in the side of a volcano is what happens when the pressure inside builds up so much that it blows out a portion of the mountain when it erupts (like what happened with Mt. St. Helens).

Also of interest:


It is so going to blow.

As for the clouds, they only broke after the integration, and after Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal. They were higher than Dragonmount, but it was noted that this was unnatural - the 'dockmaster's sky' that Siuan referred to a couple of times in the book. It seems to be pretty much everywhere now.

I am not a "spoiler whore". I didn't understand why it looked like it blew its top off when it clearly hadn't.

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Ah, okay. I thought you were asking if it erupted in the book. :D

And I wasn't trying to insult you, btw - I was a spoiler whore after I got my hands on the book and only got to read half....

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 01:27 AM
actually, I wouldn't say that it means anything, and I wouldn't get completely locked up in the idea that Rand is literally tied to the land.

First off, about the wounds, well, in the last book Rand lost his hand. Now, while we might not have heard about cause it's a big world and we're only focusing on one small part of it, I still think it's likely that we would have heard about a part of it being annihilated.

But there is a lot of schism and Rand remains cut off from some of the those who would be most useful to him. There's even the KP about the left hand straying or something like that.

Terez
11-03-2009, 01:29 AM
lol, that was about Osan'gar and Aran'gar. One falters, one strays. Respectively.

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 01:43 AM
lol, that was about Osan'gar and Aran'gar. One falters, one strays. Respectively.

They were included in the prophecies of the Dragon? :eek:

You know, the parts of those prophecies that refer to Mat and Perrin have always had me worried. Which prophesies refer to whom?

Terez
11-03-2009, 01:49 AM
Nynaeve's Healing of severing (and Flinn's) was also attributed to Rand in the prophecies.

The Black Wind
11-03-2009, 08:20 AM
Are you talking about the, "he will heal wounds of madness and cutting of hope" prophecy? I always though that was just some fancy verbage for the cleansing.

~shrug~

Or is it something else?

Terez
11-03-2009, 08:27 AM
'Severing' is cutting, so that makes more sense. Besides the fact that Rand isn't exactly the one that did it.

Jokeslayer
11-03-2009, 08:36 AM
Doesn't one of the Forsaken's names mean betrayer of hope? Ishamael or Sammael, IIRC.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 08:43 AM
Ishamael is the Betrayer of Hope, Sammael is the Destroyer of Hope.
Dermael would be Master of Hope, I'm not sure who in the series deserves that title. Perhaps one of the Keystone Koven.

Terez
11-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Yeah...but he HEALS cutting of hope, so that doesn't work.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 12:31 PM
Funny--I never got the impression that it had blown it's top in that vision. Just that there's a big hole in the side (and I was surprised just like Terez).

I suppose it could just be a crack, but Min's vision implied a hole had been blown. Is it just that no one has been up there before?

Sarevok
11-03-2009, 12:35 PM
Funny--I never got the impression that it had blown it's top in that vision. Just that there's a big hole in the side (and I was surprised just like Terez).

I suppose it could just be a crack, but Min's vision implied a hole had been blown. Is it just that no one has been up there before?
Well, when Rand was on the top, it was mentioned he was on a ridge a few hundred feet ABOVE the crater. This suggests to me that the crater of the mountain isn't in the dead center of the mountain.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Of course, the crater is the depression inside the (more or less) circular ridge around it. So if Rand had been standing on that ridge (which seems rather likely) than that would fit precisely the description fitting in the book.
The crater of a volcano like Dragonmount simply can't be seen from ground level.

Brita
11-03-2009, 02:51 PM
Dermael would be Master of Hope, I'm not sure who in the series deserves that title. Perhaps one of the Keystone Koven.

Or the Tinker King (is there a Tinker leader? I can't remember).

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 03:07 PM
Are you talking about the, "he will heal wounds of madness and cutting of hope" prophecy? I always though that was just some fancy verbage for the cleansing.

~shrug~

Or is it something else?


Yeah, I thought it was a bit fancy too. Especially since it mentions healing. Severing would have fit the cutting bit better.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 03:10 PM
Yeah, I thought it was a bit fancy too. Especially since it mentions healing. Severing would have fit the cutting bit better.

I dont buy the Nynaeve/Flinn connection some are trying to make here. I think it completely has to do with the Cleansing.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 03:13 PM
I always figured it was both. He would Cleanse saidin, and also heal Stilling.

Granted, he didn't heal Stilling himself, but he certainly had an impact in one way or another.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 03:14 PM
Of course, the crater is the depression inside the (more or less) circular ridge around it. So if Rand had been standing on that ridge (which seems rather likely) than that would fit precisely the description fitting in the book.
The crater of a volcano like Dragonmount simply can't be seen from ground level.
It is, however, a hole in the side of the mountain, not at the top like a traditional cone. Even so, it might not be visible at ground level.

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 03:15 PM
I dont buy the Nynaeve/Flinn connection some are trying to make here. I think it completely has to do with the Cleansing.

Or it might none of the above. We could fin ish the series and not be sure what means what.

the silent speaker
11-03-2009, 06:58 PM
The cutting of hope could be Avendesora.

reTaardad
11-03-2009, 07:15 PM
...a stratovolcano with an offset caldera. Maybe a like this, just 10 times bigger:

http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/alaska/Ven_cover.jpg

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 11:18 PM
Personally I vote for a Cleansing interpretation of that prophecy. I think healing Stilling is honestly kinda small potatoes when it comes to the future of the Pattern. ~shrug~

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 03:12 AM
Yeah...but he HEALS cutting of hope, so that doesn't work.Unless he manages to heal ole ishy's mind and get him going for the light. >_> :rolleyes:

Or it might none of the above. We could fin ish the series and not be sure what means what.Magic 8-ball says "Chances are good"

I think healing Stilling is honestly kinda small potatoes when it comes to the future of the Pattern. ~shrug~I dunno, what with severing being not so huge a threat anymore, a lot of things could change. Tower law will change, for sure. Testing of ter'angreal will probably increase. (I know burning out and severing are different and burning out probably can't be healed, but I'm not sure if THEY know that) If testing of Ter'angreal increases, more people like Elayne might be found, and who knows, maybe a mass flood of new Ter'angreal will make life better. Or maybe worse. ~shrug~

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 11:06 AM
I dunno, what with severing being not so huge a threat anymore, a lot of things could change. Tower law will change, for sure. Testing of ter'angreal will probably increase. (I know burning out and severing are different and burning out probably can't be healed, but I'm not sure if THEY know that) If testing of Ter'angreal increases, more people like Elayne might be found, and who knows, maybe a mass flood of new Ter'angreal will make life better. Or maybe worse. ~shrug~
And then again, we have the theory that the world will lose the use of channeling soon anyway.

Dunno, while it's undoubtedly a Cool Thing for channelers that stilling can be Healed, I just don't see it as a Pattern-shaking discovery.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 07:40 PM
it's undoubtedly a Cool Thing for channelers that stilling can be Healed, I just don't see it as a Pattern-shaking discovery

Of course, if the pattern is shaking all sorts of impossible stuff can happen. :p

If nyn can heal stilling then moridin can make it over to the light.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 07:47 PM
If nyn can heal stilling then moridin can make it over to the light.

Wait. What? :confused:

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 08:00 PM
That meter again? :)

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 06:56 PM
And then again, we have the theory that the world will lose the use of channeling soon anyway.

Dunno, while it's undoubtedly a Cool Thing for channelers that stilling can be Healed, I just don't see it as a Pattern-shaking discovery.Hey, I'm the one that normally brings that theory up (who's is it, anyways?). I don't believe it (or rather, I hope it ain't true), but it is a nice theory to throw a wrench in the works of many "Post-3rd age" theories.

And OK maybe not pattern-shaking...pattern wobbling then? :rolleyes:

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 07:11 PM
Hey, I'm the one that normally brings that theory up (who's is it, anyways?).

That depends on which "channeling will be lost after T'G theory you're asking about.

I think I was one of the first to propose that whatever Rand does to the Bore will lower the pool of the True Source to the point it is unaccessible ecxept for a few magical places like Avalon or Shangri La in our Age.

Search for the Isand Stedding theory. (it might only be in the forums at Yukko.)

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:19 PM
I think I was one of the first to propose that whatever Rand does to the Bore will lower the pool of the True Source to the point it is unaccessible ecxept for a few magical places like Avalon or Shangri La in our Age.
Not to rain on your parade or anything... but while you may very well have been an early runner for this specific theory, the "OP will be unavailable after TG" concept has been around longer than I have. ;)

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:21 PM
while you may very well have been an early runner for this specific theory
That is quite obviously all he was talking about. :rolleyes:

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:40 PM
That is quite obviously all he was talking about. :rolleyes:
Your definition of "quite obvious" is often significantly different from other peoples' definitions of same. :p

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Not to rain on your parade or anything... but while you may very well have been an early runner for this specific theory, the "OP will be unavailable after TG" concept has been around longer than I have. ;)
I was referring specificly to the Island Steddings explanation for why it won't be available.

'the "OP will be unavailable after TG" concept' covers a LOT of theories about how, why, when, etc. I was referring to just one of the multitude.

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 10:56 PM
I was referring specificly to the Island Steddings explanation for why it won't be available.

'the "OP will be unavailable after TG" concept' covers a LOT of theories about how, why, when, etc. I was referring to just one of the multitude.
I understand that. It looked like Matoyak was just asking about the general concept though, that's the only reason I even brought it up. As mentioned, I didn't intend at all to rain in your parade.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 11:06 PM
Actually, I wasn't aware that there were more than one. (Or rather, I was aware, I just happened to have forgotten.)
For clarification, I was not remembering the stedding one. I was remembering one that specifically stated that the stream of OP from the True Source (or vice versa, whichever it goes...from the One Power to the TS?) would become blocked. So channelers would not be able to reach it, much like being shielded.
Anyone recall that one? (Or maybe I just combined a few in my mind and am misremembering them as one theory...)

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 09:53 AM
The whole idea that the True Source will become somehow unavailable isn't a theory, it's fact. Or, rather, it's an extraordinarly logical inference based on the facts that (a) time is a Wheel, (b) Randland is our world's past and future, and (c) there is no True Source available in recent real-world memory.

The theories come about as an attempted to explain hos this will happen. WH came up with or fully developed the Island stedding theory. Back in 2002 I articulated something a little more vague (http://theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=sdog&page=c), but on a similar note.

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Actually, I wasn't aware that there were more than one. (Or rather, I was aware, I just happened to have forgotten.)
For clarification, I was not remembering the stedding one. I was remembering one that specifically stated that the stream of OP from the True Source (or vice versa, whichever it goes...from the One Power to the TS?) would become blocked. So channelers would not be able to reach it, much like being shielded.
Anyone recall that one? (Or maybe I just combined a few in my mind and am misremembering them as one theory...)
I don't think anyone has articulated a decent pan=shielding theory -- where the ability to chanel remains but the source is blocked for all channelers as if they were shielded.

I think the theories fall into a "The OP will somehow become unreachable by receding or being bound up in the Seal" group and a "Channeling will belost because no Channeling souls are spun out and/or the recessive genetic traits will be bred out of the human race until some mutation reintroduces it to begin the next Second Age" group.


The first group generally contains most of the immediate loss of Channeling theories.

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 01:06 PM
Yes sdog/CC, I know that it is a fact (Argued that point on a few of the early threads on this board, before the book released and all we had were the prologue and ch1,2). I was curious who articulated the more specific theories. And now you and WH have both enlightened me on the subject. Thanks :D

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 08:47 PM
The whole idea that the True Source will become somehow unavailable isn't a theory, it's fact. Or, rather, it's an extraordinarly logical inference based on the facts that (a) time is a Wheel, (b) Randland is our world's past and future, and (c) there is no True Source available in recent real-world memory.
Well, yes. I was more addressing the question of "when." If channeling is lost immediately following Tarmon Gai'don, for instance, being able to Heal stilling isn't going to be worth a hill of beans anymore. ;)

1Powerslave
11-06-2009, 09:10 PM
The whole idea that the True Source will become somehow unavailable isn't a theory, it's fact. Or, rather, it's an extraordinarly logical inference based on the facts that (a) time is a Wheel, (b) Randland is our world's past and future, and (c) there is no True Source available in recent real-world memory.
Um, I read your theory and it doesn't satisfiably account for you naming the unavailability of the One Power as a fact. I don't see how Tamyrlin discovering how to channel, artifacts looking like things from our real world in the AoL (what are those?), and what we know about steddings makes this a fact.
Now if RJ says exactly that the OP will be inaccessible as in disappear completely, then I guess we have to believe. Just saying it is poorly motivated in the books.

If RJ said in an interview that our world would come into play in some Age during the turning of the wheel, did he also say what part of our real world history?
Stemming from the creation of the universe, the first existance of man, etc.

Isn't it right that the First Age "men ran with wolves"? Is that then where our real world is supposedly going, then how long will mankind have to survive for the earth to be wiped clean from artifacts of our world?

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Um, I read your theory and it doesn't satisfiably account for you naming the unavailability of the One Power as a fact. I don't see how Tamyrlin discovering how to channel, artifacts looking like things from our real world in the AoL (what are those?), and what we know about steddings makes this a fact.
"Unavailable" could mean the OP is somehow placed out of reach, or that we simply no longer have the mechanism to reach it any longer. In those terms, Crispy is (more or less) correct. An argument could still be used for modern-day "supernatural" occurrences though, I suppose.

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 10:56 PM
"Unavailable" could mean the OP is somehow placed out of reach, or that we simply no longer have the mechanism to reach it any longer. In those terms, Crispy is (more or less) correct. An argument could still be used for modern-day "supernatural" occurrences though, I suppose.
OK, so maybe David Blaine can channel saidin, or John the Revelator was having a really long Foretelling. The fact is that we don't know how to channel right now...right? ~looks around suspiciously~

Besides, I revised the word "fact" into "inference."

And besides, if Tamyrlin discovered channeling...doesn't that indicate that no one was channeling before him? That's a rather strong point, IMO.

As for stuff from our world, how about the Mercedes hood ornament, stories about Len going to the moon and and Alsbet the queen, etc. Plus there's this:


Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

So, PS1, are you suggesting that the OP won't be unavailable, just that people won't know how to use it?