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Tamyrlin
11-02-2009, 06:48 PM
http://tinyurl.com/y9m98mt

Starts at 6:30pm MST

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 09:05 PM
http://tinyurl.com/y9m98mt

Starts at 6:30pm MST


Thanks Tamyrlin for the livefeed, however it's offline now :(

jana
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
I started watching right when he mentioned "Bob" and then he mentioned Theoryland. What did he say right before that?

When he mentions Bob I think he might have been talking about encyclopaedia-wot.org

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 09:25 PM
I started watching right when he mentioned "Bob" and then he mentioned Theoryland. What did he say right before that?

When he mentions Bob I think he might have been talking about encyclopaedia-wot.org

There should be an audio archive of the streaming feed, but I'm not too sure what you missed as I that part too. The streaming feed broken up for a good 5-10 minutes.

jana
11-02-2009, 09:27 PM
I'll def be watching again if I can

jana
11-02-2009, 09:28 PM
HAHA

BS: "Moiraine will be mentioned in future books"

"Her name will at least be mentioned"

"At the very least in the appendix."

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 09:30 PM
A Question: Who is Cyndane? He could have answered that. It is pretty obvious. I wonder why he didn't.

jana
11-02-2009, 09:33 PM
I was taken aback by that question so I wouldn't be surprised if he was too.

Terez
11-02-2009, 09:39 PM
I was recently talking to a friend of mine who is reading the series (not because I recommended it....I went to his house after not having seen him in a few years, and he had A Crown of Swords on his coffee table, and much rejoicing commenced). ANYWAY, he's on Winter's Heart now, and I asked him if he had figured out who Cyndane and Moridin were yet. He said no, and he didn't want me to tell him cause he thought it would ruin the books. And I'm like....it's not going to ruin the books....you should know already!

Tree Brother
11-02-2009, 09:51 PM
So, BS says that OP and TP are the same. He also described them as simply power sources, and that the weaves were the same.

But that cannot be so, because men and women do things differently. Unless he is implying that even with the TP, men and women would weave differently?

At least his answer pretty means that Balefire works the same way, regardless of which power is used.

jana
11-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Thanks a lot Tam. That rocked :D

Ivhon
11-02-2009, 10:48 PM
So, BS says that OP and TP are the same. He also described them as simply power sources, and that the weaves were the same.

But that cannot be so, because men and women do things differently. Unless he is implying that even with the TP, men and women would weave differently?

At least his answer pretty means that Balefire works the same way, regardless of which power is used.

I have no problem with this at all. Even with saidar there are different ways to weave and it is very difficult to weave it differently once you have learned one method. I see the TP as raw power that you can do whatever you want with...however you are constrained by how you already relate to OP.

FelixPax
11-02-2009, 11:31 PM
Brandon just said during this live feed that the woman who may or may not of died on page 574, Graendal's scene, will be referred to in the next book "Towers of Midnight". Sweet!

That should tell us if Graendal really died or not; and possibly if Asmodean was killed by Graendal in Caemlyn about 1 year previous.

1Powerslave
11-03-2009, 12:07 AM
Thanks, Tam! I really enjoyed watching this.

I reacted on what he said about Fain and Mordeth. So Mordeth tried to use the Shadow's powers against him? That is cool. Hm. Didn't recall that, maybe I need a reread. :)

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:19 AM
Dunno exactly what he said, but in Vandene's words:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 22 - Watchers

"Shadar Logoth!" Vandene snorted. "In brief, the city was destroyed by its own hate, every living thing except Mordeth, the councilor who began it all, using the tactics of the Darkfriends against the Darkfriends, and he now lies trapped there waiting for a soul to steal. It is not safe to enter, and nothing in the city is safe to touch. But every novice close to being Accepted knows as much as that. In full, you will have to stay here a month and listen to Adeleas lecture – she has the true knowledge of it – but even I can tell you there's nothing of the Dragon in it. That place was dead a hundred years before Yurian Stonebow rose from the ashes of the Trolloc Wars, and he lies closest to it in history of all the false Dragons."

Moiraine raised a hand. "I did not speak clearly, and I do not speak of the Dragon, now, Reborn or false. Can you think of any reason why a Fade would take something that had come from Shadar Logoth?"

"Not if it knew the thing for what it was. The hate that killed Shadar Logoth was hate they thought to use against the Dark One; it would destroy Shadowspawn as surely as it would those who walk in the Light. They rightly fear Shadar Logoth as much as we." And from the BWB:

TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 10 - Rise and Fall of the Ten Nations

Other nations fell from within. Such was the nation of Aridhol, once closely allied with Manetheren. Its capital city, also called Aridhol, fell to something dark that was not of the Shadow. King Balwen Mayel, known as Balwen Ironhand, in great despair over the course of the wars, gladly welcomed a man called Mordeth to his court; Mordeth won Balwen’s ear and mind; Aridhol would use the tactics of the Shadow against the Shadow. It is said that Aridhol festered under the poison Mordeth spread, turning in on itself to become hardened and cruel. Its people spoke of the Light while abandoning the Light. Eventually, their suspicion and hate created something unspeakably evil that began to feed on that which created it. Now nothing remains of the people and nation of Aridhol. The ruined city that was once known as Aridhol still stands, but it bears a new name: Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits. The evil that was born there still lives, locked in the bedrock beneath the city, hungering for wayward souls. That evil has been named Mashadar. Late in the Trolloc Wars, an army of Trolloc, Myrddraal, Dreadlords and Darkfriends camped within the ruins. They never came out. Since that day, no Trolloc or Shadowspawn will willingly set foot in Shadar Logoth. And then there is Fain capturing and torturing Fades, taking charge of random Darkfriends long after he abandoned the Dark One (or after he tried to abandon the Dark One, anyway).

1Powerslave
11-03-2009, 12:47 AM
Here's a brief transcript of the part I was talking about. About Fain. Yadda yadda, what about Fain? Or somethign was the question.

BS:
"He will make a reappearance in future books."
"He's completely bonkers, how's that."
"He wants Rand dead like nothing else."
"He's a messed up dude."
"You gotta remember, Mordeth, I got the name right Matt? Yeah. He fell because he thought he would be able to fight the Shadow by using the powers of the Shadow."
"So he was kind of messed up to begin with, and."
"That's what overwhelmed him and consumed him."
"And now the last piece of him left is Padan Fain."
"And it remains to be seen what part he will play."
"But he certainly is a thread in the Pattern. You'll see him again."

Matoyak
11-03-2009, 12:50 AM
"But he certainly is a thread in the Pattern. You'll see him again."Wait, wasn't Fain "Outside the pattern, in a way"? Or am I misremembering a interview quote from RJ...

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 01:07 AM
Wait, wasn't Fain "Outside the pattern, in a way"? Or am I misremembering a interview quote from RJ...
No RJ did say Fain had sidestepped the pattern, in a way. He still has a thread, but it's likely as loose thread, not controlled by the wheel's weaving

Matoyak
11-03-2009, 01:17 AM
No RJ did say Fain had sidestepped the pattern, in a way. He still has a thread, but it's likely as loose thread, not controlled by the wheel's weavingYeah, sorry, bad wording on my part. That's what I was misremembering. Thanks. :)

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 05:14 AM
No RJ did say Fain had sidestepped the pattern, in a way. He still has a thread, but it's likely as loose thread, not controlled by the wheel's weaving

Guess touching the TP could shift Rand outside the pattern as well.

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:15 AM
No. Read the Budapest interview.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 02:18 PM
Guess touching the TP could shift Rand outside the pattern as well.
It never pushed Ishamael (or any of the other Forsaken) loose from the Pattern, hasn't pushed Moridin loose from the Pattern, so why should it push Rand loose?

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 02:44 PM
Well, Rand already had a couple of screws loose, so he wasn't all that well attached to the Pattern in the first place.

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 03:45 PM
It never pushed Ishamael (or any of the other Forsaken) loose from the Pattern, hasn't pushed Moridin loose from the Pattern, so why should it push Rand loose?

Good question, since it makes my brain shift out of ultra lazy gear.

Moridin travelled with the TP (bk 7 0r8?) and he was described as stepping outside the pattern (iirc here). But was he outside the pattern because of his destination or is it that simply touching the TP "shifts" the user outside the pattern?

The DO is the ultimate source of the TP and he is entirely outside the pattern. Stands to reason then, that the TP too is outside the pattern. So when channeling the TP, is the user reaching outside of the pattern to get it?

Granted, there's no direct evidence for it in the series, but there's nothing against it either, and it seems a reasonable conclusion.

Especially now that we consider Fain. I don't see anything that suggests that Fain knows how to get himself outside of the pattern and no motivation to do so. So if he is in some way outside the pattern, then the likeliest explanation is that it is a side effect of what he's doing or what he is. In this case, the TP seems most likely to be the cause.

There's also the stuff we keep hearing about fades being "slightly out of shift with reality". If they were created via the TP or can access it (travelling via shadows) then its possible that the TP will have the same effect here as well.

Right?

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 03:47 PM
No. Read the Budapest interview.

Still having some trouble accessing your database. I'll try again soon.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Good question, since it makes my brain shift out of ultra lazy gear.

Moridin travelled with the TP (bk 7 0r8?) and he was described as stepping outside the pattern (iirc here). But was he outside the pattern because of his destination or is it that simply touching the TP "shifts" the user outside the pattern?


IIRC, he went to a vacuole, which is outside the pattern. Theoretically, you could use the OP to get to a vacuole, if you knew where it was. So no, the TP has nothing to do with getting outside the pattern.

The DO is the ultimate source of the TP and he is entirely outside the pattern. Stands to reason then, that the TP too is outside the pattern. So when channeling the TP, is the user reaching outside of the pattern to get it?

No. If I'm a painter, I'm outside the wall. Is the wall reaching out to touch my paintbrush? No, I'm reaching out with my paintbrush to touch the wall.

Granted, there's no direct evidence for it in the series, but there's nothing against it either, and it seems a reasonable conclusion.

Especially now that we consider Fain. I don't see anything that suggests that Fain knows how to get himself outside of the pattern and no motivation to do so. So if he is in some way outside the pattern, then the likeliest explanation is that it is a side effect of what he's doing or what he is. In this case, the TP seems most likely to be the cause.

Fain isn't outside the Pattern; he's simply a loose thread that is unpredictable. And Fain has never used the TP, so there goes that theory.

There's also the stuff we keep hearing about fades being "slightly out of shift with reality". If they were created via the TP or can access it (travelling via shadows) then its possible that the TP will have the same effect here as well.

There's no indication that they were created with the TP, as far as I know, and even if they were, there's no indication that anyone other than Fades can use this ability.


Right?

Wrong.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 04:46 PM
IIRC, he went to a vacuole, which is outside the pattern.

There is no mention of where the "Watcher" Traveled to when:

aCoS Ch 20
To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.

Personally, I don't believe that means his Thread is ever disconnected from or uncontrolled by the Wheel's weaving, just that it is possible to physically enter other dimensions.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 04:50 PM
There is no mention of where the "Watcher" Traveled to when:

aCoS Ch 20
To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.

Personally, I don't believe that means his Thread is ever disconnected from or uncontrolled by the Wheel's weaving, just that it is possible to physically enter other dimensions.

That works, too.

Enigma
11-03-2009, 05:05 PM
I believe the passage says that Moridin seises the True Power and then steps outside the pattern (via TP gateway). Those are two specific actions so I can't see how using the TP on its one shifts you outside the pattern.

Moridin did not go anywere when he was in Ebou Dar watching Elayne and co depart. He bend some bars and killed a servant but it was only later that he went anywere. If using the TP immediatly shifted you outside the pattern it would not be much good for anything expect possibly as an escape plan.

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 05:19 PM
No. If I'm a painter, I'm outside the wall. Is the wall reaching out to touch my paintbrush? No, I'm reaching out with my paintbrush to touch the wall.

Paintbucket in one location, wall in another. Brush bridges the gap. Wall is what you apply the paint you derive from paintbucket. TP drawn from a location and applied to wall (objects within the pattern)

Fain isn't outside the Pattern; he's simply a loose thread that is unpredictable.

WH already answered that.

No RJ did say Fain had sidestepped the pattern, in a way. He still has a thread, but it's likely as loose thread, not controlled by the wheel's weaving

And Fain has never used the TP,

So he's channeling saidin? :rolleyes:

Terez answered that. He's using the power bof the shadow against it.

There's no indication that they were created with the TP,

All shadowspawn are described by channelers and warders as being like the "taint" on saidin. And we know that comes from the TP.

Wrong.

If you think you can dismiss anything so easily on TL, you've been terribly spoilt. ;)

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 05:37 PM
Paintbucket in one location, wall in another. Brush bridges the gap. Wall is what you apply the paint you derive from paintbucket. TP drawn from a location and applied to wall (objects within the pattern)

Yes, but who applies the brush? the painter or the wall? The Painter does. Similarly, the DO is the painter (applying the TP to the Pattern) and the Forsaken are the wall (receiving the TP). The Forsaken never leave the Pattern.

So he's channeling saidin? :rolleyes:

Terez answered that. He's using the power bof the shadow against it.

The "power of the Shadow" is not necessarily the TP. Mordeth, for instance, never used the TP, but he's got Shadow-like powers. There is absolutely no evidence that Fain channels anything -- saidin, TP or otherwise. Nearly all of Fain's abilities can be laid at the hands of Mordeth, who is not a Forsaken or male channeler at all.

All shadowspawn are described by channelers and warders as being like the "taint" on saidin. And we know that comes from the TP.

The taint is NOT the True Power. I don't know where you're getting that from. All Shadowspawn are twisted creations from other animals -- the Trollocs are animals mixed with human stock and the DNA was mixed via use of the Power (I'm pretty sure it doesn't specify which one, but I'm sure someone with searches can quote it for me).

If you think you can dismiss anything so easily on TL, you've been terribly spoilt. ;)

It's easily dismissed when your arguments make no sense and are based on nothing but wishful thinking. Keep trying, greatwolf.

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 06:09 PM
Yes, but who applies the brush? the painter or the wall? The Painter does. Similarly, the DO is the painter (applying the TP to the Pattern) and the Forsaken are the wall (receiving the TP). The Forsaken never leave the Pattern.

I see I wasn't too clear. I never meant that they leave they pattern bodily, just that they are outside the "weaving" of the pattern. I thought that was obvious from the context of the discussion.

The advantage of being "outside" the pattern are obvious for Moridin. But it might make Rand difficult to track now. But that's speculation.

The "power of the Shadow" is not necessarily the TP. Mordeth, for instance, never used the TP, but he's got Shadow-like powers. There is absolutely no evidence that Fain channels anything -- saidin, TP or otherwise. Nearly all of Fain's abilities can be laid at the hands of Mordeth, who is not a Forsaken or male channeler at all.

But he uses some sort of power for his 'tricks'. And all we've got is the TP or OP. And from what RJ said, if he can touch the OP, then he can use the TP. Probably works the other way around as well.

Mordeth was probably some kind of rogue channeler at the time that tried to destroy the shadow by turning its own strength against it.

The taint is NOT the True Power. I don't know where you're getting that from

From all we know, the taint is merely residue of the TP. It cannot be actively channeled or used in any way.

when your arguments make no sense and are based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Construct theory. :p

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 06:17 PM
But he uses some sort of power for his 'tricks'. And all we've got is the TP or OP. And from what RJ said, if he can touch the OP, then he can use the TP. Probably works the other way around as well.

He uses the dagger from Shadar Logoth and the powers granted to him by his merging with Mordeth. Neither of these are the OP or the TP. You're setting up a false dichotomy. Not every "power" is either the OP or the TP. For instance, the Song that the Tinkers sing is of neither OP or TP. There is no evidence anywhere that Mordeth/Fain uses ANY power other than sheer evilness. His very presence corrupts people. That's not any Power, True or One or otherwise.

Mordeth was probably some kind of rogue channeler at the time that tried to destroy the shadow by turning its own strength against it.

Probably a channeler? Prove it. Quotes, please. Oh, wait. There are none. Because he wasn't.

Construct theory. :p

I'm sorry, what?

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 06:55 PM
For instance, the Song that the Tinkers sing is of neither OP or TP

According to the BWB, seed singing ultilizes the OP. We discussed something like this not too far back and I advocated then that this sort of use of the OP can be regarded as passive use cf channeling.

But what Mordeth does can hardly be seen in such 'passive' terms such as the illusion he used against Rand in Far Madding or the nightmares he generated in aCoS. (iirc) Or even the earlier (?) illusion in EotW (Mordeth swelled or something). And we dont see the dagger doing anything but corrupting and killing people. Its not even like that warbreaker sword IMO.

Besides Fain also has a part of the DO in him.

Probably a channeler? Prove it. Quotes, please. Oh, wait. There are none. Because he wasn't.

Entirely speculative yes, but still reasonable.

I'm sorry, what?

Sarcasm. Fix that meter dude.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 07:53 PM
According to the BWB, seed singing ultilizes the OP.

I think that is a case of the BWB being wrong -- or at least contradicting itself.

BWB: "Ogier"
In the Age of Legends, Ogier lived and worked among humans, and traveled widely outside their stedding. They had a special gift for growing things, and worked closely with the Nym. Though unrelated to the One Power, many of them had the ability to affect living things, especially plants, with their songs. These gifted Ogier could cause plants to respond to sound, bending to any desired formation. The songs could also encourage a plant to grow stronger and taller. Those few Ogier who have the gift now are known as Treesingers. The marvelous items they create without damage to the parent plant - those made of sung wood - are highly prized. In the Age of Legends the ability and hence sung wood itself was very common.


As for Seed Singing using the OP:

BWB: "The AOL"
One particularly interesting fragment records Aes Sedai participating in an avenue of research that led to the development of living constructs made with and/or able to utilize the One Power. Chora trees were one such construct. Their large green trefoil leaves emitted an aura of peace and well being to any who passed beneath them. The Nym, another construct, were sentient beings with the ability to utilize the One Power for the benefit of plants and growing things. As a nameless scribe in Paaren Disen wrote, “Where a Nym touched, all manner of green and growing things thrived.”

The inference here is that the Nym's ability to use the OP is what enabled Seed Singing to use the OP.

nameless
11-03-2009, 08:37 PM
I think that is a case of the BWB being wrong -- or at least contradicting itself.

BWB: "Ogier"
In the Age of Legends, Ogier lived and worked among humans, and traveled widely outside their stedding. They had a special gift for growing things, and worked closely with the Nym. Though unrelated to the One Power, many of them had the ability to affect living things, especially plants, with their songs. These gifted Ogier could cause plants to respond to sound, bending to any desired formation. The songs could also encourage a plant to grow stronger and taller. Those few Ogier who have the gift now are known as Treesingers. The marvelous items they create without damage to the parent plant - those made of sung wood - are highly prized. In the Age of Legends the ability and hence sung wood itself was very common.


As for Seed Singing using the OP:

BWB: "The AOL"
One particularly interesting fragment records Aes Sedai participating in an avenue of research that led to the development of living constructs made with and/or able to utilize the One Power. Chora trees were one such construct. Their large green trefoil leaves emitted an aura of peace and well being to any who passed beneath them. The Nym, another construct, were sentient beings with the ability to utilize the One Power for the benefit of plants and growing things. As a nameless scribe in Paaren Disen wrote, “Where a Nym touched, all manner of green and growing things thrived.”

The inference here is that the Nym's ability to use the OP is what enabled Seed Singing to use the OP.

Thank you! This was one of the most frustrating parts of the BWB for me. Glad to see someone else isn't buying the attempt to explain away every single mystery from the Age of Legends with "oh, a wizard did it," or "yeah, that was just the One Power." After all, we've seen numerous examples of "magical" abilities unconnected to either the Dark One or the One Power, such as Sniffing, Portal Stones, Dreamwalking, Treesinging, etc. So far there's every indication that Mordeth's freaky powers were another example of this, although the way they began to mutate after he took Fain's body is certainly a result of the Dark One's touch.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 05:54 AM
~nameless said stuff here~Yeah, it's pretty difficult figuring out what is fact and what is fiction with the BWB. It's known to be wrong, with a limited perspective, but,...it still is right. So... Yeah, where we accept things from that book and where we don't is difficult to gauge.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 03:59 PM
I think that is a case of the BWB being wrong -- or at least contradicting itself.

A few things. First, I never mentioned ogier, just that seed singing ultilizes the OP.

And the BWB quote does not detail how nym ultilized the OP, whether as conduits or something else. We know Seed singing actually involved three beings : ogier, Nym and aiel. All are very pacific by nature. We do not know if it involved the use of terangreal as well or if the constructs (nym) were designed as terangreal for the purpose.

Three : either way, it doesn't matter to the disagreement, sorry discussion at hand. What matters is that an artificial being (nym) could ultilize the OP in some way. How isn't relevant at the moment.

Fain has to be using the TP even though the evil of SL is different from that of the DO. Yet both reside in Fain without apparent consequnce (would it really be fair or accurate to say Fain's madness is a result of the different types of evil in him?).

Fain does not seem to have the DO's blessing to touch the TP and he apparently does not need it. Perhaps merging with the DO in part as he has gives him his own personal reservoir of TP. If the TP is drawn from the DO, then logically it can be drawn from Fain as well. At least to a lesser degree.

Its funny though, we've seen several appearances by Fain from EotW upto especially aCoS but we know so little. Perhaps I'll find something more if I pore through the books for Fain's "tricks".

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 04:02 PM
Fain has to be using the TP even though the evil of SL is different from that of the DO.
Why?

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 04:23 PM
Why?

Because he's evil? Or because Mordeth was using "evil powers"?

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 04:27 PM
Because he's evil? Or because Mordeth was using "evil powers"?
Well as for a), the vast majority of evil folks in Randland don't have access to the True Power.

As for b), we have no evidence that Fain's "abilities" have anything to do with channeling. In fact, we've seen his PoV, and he clearly doesn't channel. And seeing as how you use the True Power by channeling it... there seems to be a flaw in your logic there.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 04:55 PM
Well as for a), the vast majority of evil folks in Randland don't have access to the True Power.

Nil contributory. You seem to be posting without taking into account the context of discussion. This is about Fain, not 'most evil folks'. I thought your question was if Fain was using the TP, OP or a third (unknown) power. Fain is an unknown quantity.

What he does must come from somewhere. The mordeth part of him uses 'shadow powers' meaning the TP. Fain himself cannot channel. And the DO aspect...

Toss the dagger into that mix as someone suggested and you'll realise that RJ could have used Fain any way he wanted. But from what we know now, Fain uses the TP and he may be his own personal reservoir of the stuff. But no saa or any of that nonsense for him. Just the madness. And the ability to exist 'outside' the weaving of the pattern.

I for one would be convinced that Fain is still a part of the pattern's weaving if we can find a prophecy concerning him. That should be sufficient I think.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 05:15 PM
What he does must come from somewhere. The mordeth part of him uses 'shadow powers' meaning the TP. Fain himself cannot channel. And the DO aspect...
I'm not as ignorant of the context as you may like to think. Your conclusion that Fain's powers must be drawn from the True Power is speculative at the very best, and so far as I know there is zero evidence to back it up. Yet you are stating it as fact.

In short; there are phenomena in the Pattern that are not related to the One Power - Dreaming, dreamwalking, Min's viewings, Wolfbrothers, Hurin's sniffing, etc. Concluding that Fain's powers must be TP related because he's "evil" is incredibly lazy logic.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 08:12 PM
In short; there are phenomena in the Pattern that are not related to the One Power - Dreaming, dreamwalking, Min's viewings, Wolfbrothers, Hurin's sniffing, etc. Concluding that Fain's powers must be TP related because he's "evil" is incredibly lazy logic.

Well the books have only given us the TP and OP. But you have the creativity to add more as you please. Just look out for the copyright..:p

Its the simplest logic you can get. If he's not using the OP, then he's using the TP. Why do find that difficult?

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 09:04 PM
Its the simplest logic you can get. If he's not using the OP, then he's using the TP. Why do find that difficult?

So by that logic, Tree Singing is a thing of the TP because we're explicitly told it is not of the OP? By that Logic any power or ability that is expressly stated as "not a thing of the One Power" like Min's viewings, Hurin's Sniffing, Wolfbrothers, Dreaming, et al is a thing of the True Power because everything must be one or the other.


Mordeth's use of "the shadow's methods against the Shadow" isn't some "shadow power" or a veiled hint that he channeled the TP. We're explictly told that Padan Fain's/Shadar Logoth's is an Evil diametrically opposed to the DO's Evil. That's why Shadar Logoth could counteract the Taint and cleanse Saidin.

greatwolf
11-05-2009, 08:34 PM
So by that logic, Tree Singing is a thing of the TP because we're explicitly told it is not of the OP?.

I phrased it that way because I suspected bela wasn't really taking it seriously. Its already been said here that Mordeth was using "evil" power and I doubt the OP can be described as such. Unless I misunderstand what he's trying to say.

Granted I've always maintained that some things like the seed singing and the fade form of Travelling might involve passive as opposed to active channeling. But that's just me rationalizing things. We don't have any oficial explanation that I know of.

But I have little doubt that Fain is using the TP or something closely related. I haven't seen any evidence that AS have ever studied the nature of the TP itself. And the little I have seen of Moridin use of it makes me wonder if there's any weaving involved at all unlike the OP.

Case point here is Moridin killing his agent in Ebou with the TP and not realizing it. If he had to weave, I think he should have been aware of what he was doing at some point. But apparently he doesn't have to pay any attention to use it.

This fits what Fain does. He has no formal training in channeling of any sort and only seems to do things that come to him naturally. Apparently there are no flows and weaves involved in what he does. And of course, we have no report of anyone feeling anything when he does his tricks (Rand had opportunity in Far Madding and Ciarhien, and so did caddy)

So some of the characteristics of the TP are there. And since he has some part of the DO in him, and he has the dagger, then he may have a reservoir from which to access the TP. Or perhaps it is something just drawn randomly from any "evil" in the vicinity.

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 11:25 PM
I phrased it that way because I suspected bela wasn't really taking it seriously.
Guilty as charged.

But I have little doubt that Fain is using the TP or something closely related.
I know, you just haven't given me any reasons to believe it. :D

As I've already said, I think your logic is severely flawed if you assume that Fain's using the True Power just because he does Evil Things - because it doesn't in any way fit what we actually know about the True Power. But I can't stop you believing it, so I'll leave it alone unless you try to use it as a fact to support a theory.

greatwolf
11-06-2009, 12:07 AM
But I can't stop you believing it, so I'll leave it alone unless you try to use it as a fact to support a theory.

Which one?

Fain is outside the pattern.

Fain uses the TP

Fain uses a TP analogue.

Channeling the TP "blinds the pattern".

Nothing very exciting to me, but all very valid to any true believer. :p

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 12:21 AM
Fain is outside the pattern. - False, with a caveat. I recently got corrected on this matter as well. He is "loose from the pattern but no living thing can be outside the pattern" or something to that effect (affect?).

Fain uses the TP - False.

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 12:44 AM
But I have little doubt that Fain is using the TP or something closely related.

Padan Fain's powers come from Shadar Logoth, via the Ruby Dagger and Mordeth's possession. Shadar Logoth's Evil is diametrically opposed to the DO's power -- that's why the Cleansing worked, the two evils consumed each other.

I would consider that as anything but "closely related."

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 08:12 PM
Which one?

Fain is outside the pattern.

Fain uses the TP

Fain uses a TP analogue.

Channeling the TP "blinds the pattern".

Nothing very exciting to me, but all very valid to any true believer. :p

While perusing the interviews for a project I'm working on, I found this quote from RJ himself, greatwolf, and thought you might be interested:


A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.


Fain/Mordeth does NOT channel, OP or TP or otherwise.

greatwolf
11-06-2009, 08:28 PM
Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel

Fain/Mordeth does NOT channel, OP or TP or otherwise.

Thanks. I've considered the import of this quote several times and I've been trying to find it again. The problem is, its difficult to tell when RJ has added that extra bit of subtlety that we know him for.

The bolded bits show that RJ uses Fain at a point and Mordeth at another. Taken casually, I'll agree that Fain does not touch TP or OP. But then how does he do what he does?

RJ never struck me as the magic wizard type. So I find it a little suspicious that he says Fain has "tricks" and yet he also says he cannot channel. Do we then accept that there are "tricks" in WoT?

greatwolf
11-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Fain is outside the pattern. - False, with a caveat. I recently got corrected on this matter as well. He is "loose from the pattern but no living thing can be outside the pattern" or something to that effect (affect?).

Isn't that an interview quote?

But the DO and creator are 'living' beings and outside the pattern?

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 09:00 PM
Do we then accept that there are "tricks" in WoT?

Yes, we do. We've given dozens of examples: wolfbrothers, Dreaming (even non-channeling Wise Ones can do it), Min's visions, Hurin's violence-sniffing. These are all "tricks" that don't involve the One Power in any shape, form or fashion.

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Here's another quote, this time from DragonCon in September 2005:


DragonCon September 2005

Question: Can a person who cannot channel the One Power, can they use the True Source of the Dark One?
Jordan: No.



Since Fain/Mordeth can't channel the One Power, he can't channel the True Power.

Terez
11-06-2009, 10:55 PM
FYI: Quotes don't usually work with vardene. We showed her a quote saying the Power went THROUGH Lews Therin when he killed himself, and she still tried to insist that he didn't die.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 11:02 PM
FYI: Quotes don't usually work with vardene. We showed her a quote saying the Power went THROUGH Lews Therin when he killed himself, and she still tried to insist that he didn't die.
That actually reminds me of a huge fight I had with Thief millions of years ago. He was trying to convince me that Rand managed to overdose on the OP and die before the bar of fire he summoned (which, IIRC, he figured was really balefire) hit him. :D

Terez
11-06-2009, 11:12 PM
Did this have something to do with two souls?

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 11:30 PM
Did this have something to do with two souls?
Way back then? I guess anything's possible.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Fain is outside the pattern. - False, with a caveat. I recently got corrected on this matter as well. He is "loose from the pattern but no living thing can be outside the pattern" or something to that effect (affect?).


Wotmania/Dragonmount - December 2002
Question: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Answer: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern. - Robert Jordan

The question here is how Fain manages to side step the pattern. We've seen mention of loose threads before as a consequence of BF. This doesn't qualify for that. The TP is the best explanation I can find.


As for Fain channeling:

Knife of Dreams book tour 28 October 2005, Half Moon Bay - Caychris reporting

Someone asked about the house and the flies. [The Great Hunt Ch. 10 - most people thought this was Lanfear. - Terez] He said it was a time loop trap set by Fain and if Rand had not left the house it would have repeated indefinitely till Rand died.

Great trick, no?

BTW, Fain did not have the dagger at this point.

And since the discussion is getting lively,

RJ said Fain/Mordeth does not channel. Clearly, he meant the OP. Since we can all see that Mordeth has gone beyond mere 'tricks'.

RJ has said the evil of SL is as great as that of the DO. Great meaning it equals the DO's TP. Yes?

JSUCamel
11-07-2009, 06:11 PM
RJ said Fain/Mordeth does not channel. Clearly, he meant the OP. Since we can all see that Mordeth has gone beyond mere 'tricks'.

RJ has said the evil of SL is as great as that of the DO. Great meaning it equals the DO's TP. Yes?

Except for the quote where he says if you can't channel the OP, then you can't channel the TP.

Face it, greatwolf. Fain's "tricks" aren't related to the Power.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 06:28 PM
Except for the quote where he says if you can't channel the OP, then you can't channel the TP.

Face it, greatwolf. Fain's "tricks" aren't related to the Power.

Yup. Creating a time loop is certain a trick or treat event.

nameless
11-07-2009, 07:31 PM
Mordeth has been set up from the get-go as a source of evil comparable to yet separate from the Shadow. If it turned out he was really just channeling the Dark One all along I think it would seriously detract from the nuance of the story. One of my favorite things about WoT is that it acknowledges that not all evil is monolithic. The primary antagonist, the Dark One, has his own antagonist, Mordeth, who is every bit as vile as the evil he fights against. Fortunately for my enjoyment of the story, we've been told flat out that Fain can't channel, which means his ability to use Mordeth's powers indicates said powers are unrelated to channeling.

Honestly, I'm not sure we needed to be told this to figure it out. Mordeth's powers are more subtle than channelers' powers, and in many ways more profound. They can contaminate someone's mind with Compulsion on an individual basis; whereas he can create a contagious paranoia that spreads from mind to mind and contaminates entire cities. If the True Power were capable of making a mind plague that turned the infected over to the Shadow the Forsaken would have done so long since.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 10:12 PM
**deep sigh**

I've already acknowledged what RJ said at the interview signing. The problem is that sometimes some answers need more answers. What we're discussing here involves some of the greyer areas of the WoT.

So far we're told of channeling in two forms TP and OP. And TP use is currently restricted to Moridin (and SH). But I haven't personally seen anything that suggests TP channeling is anything like what we know of the OP. In fact when we use the word channeling, we are usually referring to the OP. TP channeling is something of an aberration.

Now we're told many things in the books and the interviews. Using the TP is said to be similar to the OP - but there are obvious differences such as the price paid.

We are also told that SL evil is as bad as but opposite to the DO's evil. Does that mean opposite to the TP of the DO as well? The answer here could be no. I'll accept if it is sound and reasonable but I don't care much for dogma.

It means that we have a situation where the DO's 'tricks' are powered by the TP while Fain's are powered by...? But hold on, this is still alright with the interview quotes.

Yet another quote describes the two evil as opposite poles : (emphasis mine)

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting



Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.
RJ: You don't think it's obvious?
Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another.
Do you understand better now?
Emma: Yes, thank you.
RJ: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...


The only way I can describe this is in terms of electrons and protons. Totally similar and totally different. Yet both charged. And RJ was a physics student. Perhaps this is how he viewed it.

So Fain has special abilities that isn't channeling. And it is opposite in nature to the DO's evil. Yet Fain can do things that even the strongest circles and most knowledgeable channelers can't, such as the mashadar-like creature he whipped up (?created) in aCoS.

We've argued that creatures such as nym ultilize the OP without channeling. So is the same true for Fain? Does he use the TP or TP analogue without channeling?

We must remind ourselves then of Fain's uniqueness. He isn't like wolfbrothers and others, he's very specific to this age alone. He's an amalgam of Mordeth, Padan Fain and a 'distilling' of the DO. I don't expect that we can really tell what Fain is or isn't without direct answers from the books or RJ/BS.

Trutino
11-08-2009, 12:53 AM
**deep sigh**

I've already acknowledged what RJ said at the interview signing. The problem is that sometimes some answers need more answers. What we're discussing here involves some of the greyer areas of the WoT.

So far we're told of channeling in two forms TP and OP. And TP use is currently restricted to Moridin (and SH). But I haven't personally seen anything that suggests TP channeling is anything like what we know of the OP. In fact when we use the word channeling, we are usually referring to the OP. TP channeling is something of an aberration.

Now we're told many things in the books and the interviews. Using the TP is said to be similar to the OP - but there are obvious differences such as the price paid.

We are also told that SL evil is as bad as but opposite to the DO's evil. Does that mean opposite to the TP of the DO as well? The answer here could be no. I'll accept if it is sound and reasonable but I don't care much for dogma.

It means that we have a situation where the DO's 'tricks' are powered by the TP while Fain's are powered by...? But hold on, this is still alright with the interview quotes.

Yet another quote describes the two evil as opposite poles : (emphasis mine)




The only way I can describe this is in terms of electrons and protons. Totally similar and totally different. Yet both charged. And RJ was a physics student. Perhaps this is how he viewed it.

So Fain has special abilities that isn't channeling. And it is opposite in nature to the DO's evil. Yet Fain can do things that even the strongest circles and most knowledgeable channelers can't, such as the mashadar-like creature he whipped up (?created) in aCoS.

We've argued that creatures such as nym ultilize the OP without channeling. So is the same true for Fain? Does he use the TP or TP analogue without channeling?

We must remind ourselves then of Fain's uniqueness. He isn't like wolfbrothers and others, he's very specific to this age alone. He's an amalgam of Mordeth, Padan Fain and a 'distilling' of the DO. I don't expect that we can really tell what Fain is or isn't without direct answers from the books or RJ/BS.

Humans-created evil managed to make lots of weird things happen in Aridhol, without the Power being involved. Presumably, Fain just carries around some of the evil that made Aridhol very dangerous and can use it. I don't know all the logistics about how Mordeth/Aridhol-type power works in terms of influencing people, but I know that it does influence people (and worse!). Fain has some of these same powers, even though as RJ said, he can't actually contaminate people physically in the way Moiraine thought he could.

greatwolf
11-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Have it your way then, I just don't see it all adding up. :(

Yuri33
11-08-2009, 10:57 PM
Using the TP is a matter of the DO letting you use it. There's no way the DO would allow Fain to use the TP.

nameless
11-09-2009, 03:11 AM
Have it your way then, I just don't see it all adding up. :(

Well, you said yourself it's a mystery. There's lots of evidence about what Fain isn't using but almost nothing about what he actually is using. I've been trying to figure out what the hell happened to Aridhol since the first book came out and I'm still pretty much in the dark. We're told it was their suspiscion and hatred that cursed the place, but if that was all it took then why hasn't the same thing happened to the Fortress of Light in Amador? Innocent people have been tortured to death there in the name of stamping out the Shadow for centuries now. Mordeth's presence somehow pushed the whole city above and beyond the normal human capacity for evil and we still have no clues as to how, although I have come up with some really improbable theories about it.

Speaking of my crazy Shadar Logoth theories, does anyone know what year Machin Shin was first sighted? Specifically, was it before or after the Aridhol Waygate became corrupted?

edit- corrupted from the outside, I mean. I know the Ways themselves had been decaying from the inside for a while before anyone saw the Black Wind.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 10:14 AM
Speaking of my crazy Shadar Logoth theories, does anyone know what year Machin Shin was first sighted? Specifically, was it before or after the Aridhol Waygate became corrupted?

Well after I believe. Aridhol fell during the Trolloc Wars (i.e. 2000-2500 years ago) while the Ways were usable up till 400 years prior to the current era and last used about 200 years prior.

nameless
11-09-2009, 06:07 PM
Interesting... very interesting. I've been kicking around for a while now the idea that Machin Shin was originally composed of the souls of the Shadar Logoth victims. I have no idea how they managed to get through that Waygate in the first place, but it's the best explanation I can come up with for how Machin Shin interacted with Fain. We only get a brief explanation of that particular encounter, from Moraine, who admitted herself that Fain's confessions were hardly trustworthy, but we are told of three distinct events in their meeting: Machin Shin approached Fain; Machin Shin communicated with Fain and some of the voices recognized him and greeted him; Machin Shin ran away screaming. The approach part isn't particularly revealing seeing as the Black Wind does that to pretty much everyone it can find. The running in terror is somewhat ambiguous, because we've seen Fain cause fear in Shadowspawn before and because we know the Black Wind eats souls, and anything coming into contact with what was left of Fain's soul would almost certainly run screaming. It's the middle step, the recognition and communication, that interests me. If Machin Shin were really just a parasite or some random Shadowspawn there's no reason it would recognise either Fain or Mordeth. It might recognize the Shadow taint that was "distilled" into Fain but given the way it treats trollocs and even myrdraal as just more prey it seems unlikely that's what it was reacting to. In fact, now that I think about it, isn't Machin Shin attracted even more strongly to Shadowspawn than it is to humans? Kind of like the way the Aridhol taint attracts and annihilates the Shadow taint. The fact that it did recognise him suggests some sort of common origin between the two: specifically, that either Machin Shin originated in Aridhol or Mordeth himself is somehow connected to the Ways. I'm inclined to believe the first because the second would point towards my "Mordeth is some kind of Lovecraftian nightmare from beyond space and time" theory, which is frankly just ridiculous.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 06:56 PM
Here you go:


TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Deterioration of the Ways

For almost two thousand years, the Ways provided safe transit for Ogier and human alike. Then, during the War of the Hundred Years, they began to change, growing gradually dank and dim. The change was so slow that few noticed it until darkness enveloped the bridges. Not all the travelers who went in came out again, and over time the numbers of travelers who vanished grew from a few to many. Some who did come out had been driven mad. Those who could speak raved about Machin Shin, or of a presence that watched from the shadows. The Ways became completely dark. Ogier Elders now ban any Ogier or human from traveling the Ways, for the darkness, and the creature that roams the Ways, have made them deadly. The few who have dared travel them in recent years relate that the organic stone, once beautiful and smooth, is now pitted and broken, sometimes to the point of crumbling when touched. The trees and grass that once graced the islands are long gone, and the darkness is thick, deeper than night, and resistant to any light brought against it.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Yeah, I'm (slightly) resurrecting this thread.

Have it your way then, I just don't see it all adding up. :(
I found a couple of quotes from a recent signing that I hoped might change your mind. I admit it's a fool's hope, but I'm just a sunny optimist. :D

Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1043)


Q: Slayer made a gateway in Far Madding when he tried to kill Rand and Min. Does this mean he uses the True Power to make his gateways?
A: Slayer does not channel. His powers come from somewhere other than the Source. Slayer is not affected by the Guardian in much the same way that Perrin wouldn’t be.

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?
A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound.
Both of these quotes state flat-out that there are "powers" that do not spring from either the One Power or the True Power.

ZaderGru
11-16-2009, 05:25 PM
of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another.
Do you understand better now?
Emma: Yes, thank you.
RJ: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...
..

Sorry to go off topic guys, but when I was reading this quote a thought came to me.
The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.

Could Rand’s injury from Fain be having more of an effect on him than previously thought?. Perhaps the darkness being “seen” around Rand has nothing to do with the DO, maybe it has more to do with Mordeth/Fain.