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Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 01:02 AM
Okay - not sure if I will get around to it tonight, but there is plenty to be discussed, not the least of all an answer to questions about balefire, Finns, Graendal, etc.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 01:10 AM
I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

I asked, in essence, are One Power and True Power balefire the same.

He answered that the True Power is another source of power, that Aes Sedai were researching another source, like a different form of battery, to power their weaves and that in for balefire, what it does is essentially the same between both power sources, but that it has different affects on the individual using the power source (this appeared to be a reference to what True Power does to its user).

WISH I HAD THESE ON TAPE, so I had the exact wording of question and answer...but I'm sure he'll answer them on the record again, because he believed he was on the record, but ustream was messed up at that moment.

Terez
11-03-2009, 01:45 AM
I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress). I wonder what he was getting at with Semirhage. Because the cases she mentioned couldn't possibly have had anything to do with the taint. I'm not saying the taint didn't influence the development of Rand's voice - it obviously did - just that I don't know what he's getting at with Semirhage.

But this answer makes it seems as though he will be willing to go further, that his earlier reluctance was indeed about spoilers.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 01:54 AM
That he was saying that she was right to connect voices and taint...but at the same time, that isn't all that is going on with Rand and doesn't explain fully his situation, and she is Forsaken after all, so you can't actually believe her fully.

Terez
11-03-2009, 02:04 AM
hmm, I got the impression in chapter 1 when it first came out that he was aware of our arguments about Lews Therin, because he had Rand think that Semirhage rarely lies.

But the only thing that the real'ers ever used her for was the 'real voice' bit (which of course doesn't mean anything beyond the obvious, that the memories are real). The anti- taint barrier degradation people used her for....well, anti- taint barrier degradation arguments, lol (Graendal's pre-taint patients). The constructors pointed out that Semirhage answered Cadsuane's question, "How can you be sure?" with "Because he is insane."

Belazamon
11-03-2009, 02:06 AM
I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).
Sounds like a reference to barrier degradation theory, to me.

Terez
11-03-2009, 02:11 AM
Yeah, I thought the same, which is why it was confusing - because Semirhage introduced the biggest argument AGAINST barrier degradation (Graendal's pre-taint patients).

Neilbert
11-03-2009, 02:17 AM
The taint was an influence in the voice, sure, but the memories? These are two different things.

Terez
11-03-2009, 02:21 AM
Who said they weren't?

greatwolf
11-03-2009, 02:37 AM
:D

I wonder if BS is becoming tricksy. But too mean to share my thoughts right now.;)

Tree Brother
11-03-2009, 07:29 AM
Yeah, I thought the same, which is why it was confusing - because Semirhage introduced the biggest argument AGAINST barrier degradation (Graendal's pre-taint patients).

I think the point is, even without the taint, people can become insane, and that sometimes that insanity is caused by "barrier degradation" in which case the voice you hear is "real". The taint basically causes corruption in your body, which makes all sorts of "normal" insanity possible.

Sort of like: A wound can become infected without the taint, but a wound will become infected with the taint.

So, the taint could cause "barrier degradation" but other things could cause it as well (some sort of trauma/injury, birth defect, or whatever)

Semirhage is an expert in insanity.

Terez
11-03-2009, 07:34 AM
Graendal's the insanity expert. Semirhage is an expert in pain. ;)

I understand the concepts - just not sure what, exactly, BS was referring to with Semirhage.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 11:00 AM
Sounds like a huge victory for Barrier Degradation...which makes for a happy Davian.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Dinner with the Storm Leaders.

Note to readers - I did not transcribe the entire hour long conversation. Instead, I picked what I thought were the most important plot related items.

Enjoy,
Matt

----

Brandon summarizes why the next book will be a bit more chaotic than The Gathering Storm, which may make Towers of Midnight a longer book. The Gathering Storm feels focused, whereas the Towers of Midnight may not feel that way.

Brandon discusses Mistborn questions.

Brandon mentioned that Peter knows the secret.

Matt - Question: Did Robert Jordan leave a power to time comparison, as to how much time is burned back on a thread using balefire. Is there a calculation that says x amount of power will burn back x amount of time on a thread?

Brandon: M.A.F.O – Maria and Find Out. What he did leave, he left a lot of stuff, there is discussion of these things in the notes. I need to look and see if there is an actual equation. He was very focused on strength of the power and things like that. He has probably told you before, I think I’ve seen a copy of that on notes and things. He did leave scales on exactly how powerful each person is…

Matt - Question: The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

Brandon: One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a - I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on…this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way an’greal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using an’greal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.

Matt - Question: We know that in the Age of Legends that the Forsaken/Chosen, everyone agreed to stop using Balefire because of its effects on the Pattern. Is it unrealistic then to say that a great amount of power could burn someone’s thread back a year or six months. Is that an unrealistic thing to say that there is enough power available to either one or multiple people to burn somebody back that far?

Brandon: I see what you are getting at you are trying to figure out if killed Graendal with a whole lot of balefire would bring Asmodean back to life.

Matt: …like that could ever happen…

Brandon: That’s what you are digging for isn’t you?

Matt: Let’s say, if a Forsaken was responsible for killing another Forsaken.

Brandon: Uh huh

Matt: And said Forsaken was balefired….

Brandon: You are under the assumption…You are trying to figure out who killed Asmodean again. That’s what you are trying to do and I’m not going to get caught and let you know…

Matt: It’s a legit question…and I’m sure whatever is said at this table stays at this table…

Brandon: I’m sure, the leader of Theoryland and the guy taping this…

~much laughter~

Brandon: Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us, what have you determined, from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

Matt: Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

Brandon: Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done…

Matt: Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most

Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

Matt: Like I said to Jennifer, it is my job at Theoryland to entertain these ideas.

Brandon: Yes it is, it is your job to entertain them. But in the terms of Mythbusters let’s go ahead and call that one “Busted” in the realistic world. I’ve got to give you at least something, so I’ll at least give you that…If it were possible to do things like that, we’d have the Dark One just going and balefiring you know Tam so Rand never gets picked up off the mountain….

[…]

Brandon: I think it is more loose guidelines than it is a formula.


Matt Question: I don’t think Jordan ever, maybe somebody asked, in his notes does he ever say what the treaties were between the finns and the people with whom they made them. Are those treaties actually written down somewhere?

Brandon: Um – I think that you may see some of this in the encyclopedia. How is that for a Robert Jordan answer for you. The encyclopedia is coming. [Stuff about the Big White Book]. It is actually going to be an encyclopedia…Harriet, Maria and Alan are working on that. Memory of Light comes first so they have to keep dividing their time. My guess would be 2012, but if we’re really on the ball, I would think releasing it the same year of the last volume would be a smart thing to do…Peter will you take a note to let Maria know that I told them that that might happen so she is not blind sided by it. She and Harriet will have to decide if that goes in if anything regarding that goes in. The original treaty between the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and mankind. Just remind me to talk to Harriet to talk to Maria about it.

Matt: Are the treaties different?

Brandon: Different from what?

Matt: There are two treaties…(hard to hear what I ask next, but I’m clarifying Snakes and Foxes).

Brandon: They are similar, how about that. They are similar enough that they could be considered functionally identical but there are little differences.

About the Upcoming Epic Magic Battle Between Brandon and Jason Denzel

See, I’m expecting…the reason why I’m doing it like I’m doing it. I’m giving myself a handicap. I’m not going to draw back into my stock of super cards like I could do. I’m only going to use the cards I’ve been given. It’s the natural, smaller pool. I’m expecting him to go and build the uber super deck. He can reach to any cards he wants and build the perfect deck…he’s going to need the fans to tell him what to make and then to make it…I don’t feel sorry for Jason at all. He’s going to come at me with some uber deck perfected by fans at tournaments…oh he’s good at getting sympathy, but I’m going to expose him for what he is…

Isabel
11-03-2009, 11:39 AM
I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).


Tam: did you ask how the voice came into existance and not the memories?

Because if you did, than it might be the construct theory is less likely. Because they are off the opinion the memories might have come because of the taint , but the voice was constructed ;)
The quote of Semirhage is about people hearing a REAL past life voice in their head.

But what did he mean with Rand going insane??

agggh, couldn't you have asked more? What is your impression of what Brandon tried to say?

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Woot, Asmo is dead for good. Nice.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 11:53 AM
Good job grilling him Tam.

Did you shine a bright light in his eyes while asking about the balefire issue? Good cop bad cop action?

Davian93
11-03-2009, 11:53 AM
Woot, Asmo is dead for good. Nice.

Thank God.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 11:56 AM
agggh, couldn't you have asked more? What is your impression of what Brandon tried to say?

Unlike some people, my dear, Tam knows how to wait his turn to ask questions. ;)

Terez
11-03-2009, 11:58 AM
But what did he mean with Rand going insane??
That it had a lot to do with the construction of the voice. ;)

And Dav, that's way too vague to say it's real evidence of barrier degradation....not saying that's not what BS was getting at, but that you shouldn't count your chickens....

Davian93
11-03-2009, 11:59 AM
That it had a lot to do with the construction of the voice. ;)

And Dav, that's way too vague to say it's real evidence of barrier degradation....not saying that's not what BS was getting at, but that you shouldn't count your chickens....

The Taint helped cause the voice. If not Barrier Degradation, what else could that mean?

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:00 PM
The Taint helped cause the voice. If not Barrier Degradation, what else could that mean?
That the taint helped cause Rand's madness, and therefore the construction of the voice.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:01 PM
That the taint helped cause Rand's madness, and therefore the construction of the voice.

Meh! That doesnt explain the memories seeping through.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 12:01 PM
The Taint might have shaped the way in which the memories expressed themselves. That is: the Pattern made Rand get LTT's memories (and possibly lots of others as well), and because of the Taint he got most of this information from LTT's voice.

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:05 PM
He didn't get much information at all from 'Lews Therin's voice'. Not sure why I have to keep reminding real'ers of this....I've quoted the bit where Rand says that a billion times, not that it isn't extremely obvious that the memories almost always come directly to Rand unless they're about Ilyena. :rolleyes:

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:08 PM
He didn't get much information at all from 'Lews Therin's voice'. Not sure why I have to keep reminding real'ers of this....I've quoted the bit where Rand says that a billion times, not that it isn't extremely obvious that the memories almost always come directly to Rand unless they're about Ilyena. :rolleyes:

And how are those memories available to him? Taint Degradation. ;)

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:10 PM
And how are those memories available to him? Taint Degradation. ;)
I don't disagree, but Neil and 4A and Seeker and a few others definitely would.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't disagree, but Neil and 4A and Seeker and a few others definitely would.

Then why are you arguing it with me?

Terez
11-03-2009, 12:14 PM
Because the BS quote does not confirm barrier degradation. It's called intellectual honesty...

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:17 PM
Because the BS quote does not confirm barrier degradation. It's called intellectual honesty...

But it is another check in the column that supports it. I'm not saying its definite but there is far more evidence for it than there is for any other explanation. Rand's own POV opinion supports it.

Isabel
11-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Unlike some people, my dear, Tam knows how to wait his turn to ask questions. ;)

Pfff ;)

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 12:22 PM
I try to ask questions that he will answer, but that will get us closer to an answer. Instead of getting - "that would be a spoiler".

I asked the one I thought he'd answer Isa, but if you can come up with questions that are not "can you tell us if the voice is real", I will see about asking them. ;)

A couple more signings to go in California.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-03-2009, 12:31 PM
Wow, nice job Tam. Thanks for sharing too!

Isabel
11-03-2009, 12:32 PM
Hehe, well, a lot of people have read the book already, right;)
But anyway, thanks for asking :) Hmm, perhaps something about Semirhage quote?

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm happy my balefire question got answered...closed the Semi loophole at least.

Wunderwaffe
11-03-2009, 12:36 PM
If the voice of LTT in Rand's head provided useful information, you wouldn't think Rand would almost continually attempt to mute the voice to a fly's buzz.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 12:37 PM
If the voice of LTT in Rand's head provided useful information, you wouldn't think Rand would almost continually attempt to mute the voice to a fly's buzz.

Well, if you think you are going mad and that that "voice" in your head is the result of that madness, you'd probably try to block it out too.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 01:07 PM
So he's effectively saying Graendal did it, right? I mean, he eliminated the possibility of BF'ing Graendal back so far that Asmodean comes back to life. He didn't even qualify it to suggest it might not have been Graendal.

Nice.

Davian93
11-03-2009, 01:18 PM
So he's effectively saying Graendal did it, right? I mean, he eliminated the possibility of BF'ing Graendal back so far that Asmodean comes back to life. He didn't even qualify it to suggest it might not have been Graendal.

Nice.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Like he said, similar to Jordan's response that everyone quotes, he was asking if I was trying to figure out if Graendal killed Asmodean and he wasn't going to fall into that trap, but at the same time he had seen/heard of this theory and wanted to debunk it.

So no.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Well, I was being a tiny bit facetious, of course. I like how Brandon is channeling RJ's non-committal answering abilities.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 02:13 PM
Well, I was being a tiny bit facetious, of course. I like how Brandon is channeling RJ's non-committal answering abilities.

Comes with the job, apparently.

I don't think this rules Graendal in or out.

Side note: Rand doesn't know Asmo is dead. As far as he's concerned, Asmo just disappeared. How come Rand has chased down Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal, but hasn't bothered to track down Asmo?

This side note ties into the Graendal thing. If Graendal's dead, there's no reason she couldn't have committed the murder of Asmo. I'm not sure there's anywhere where RJ says we'll have a POV of the killer, but it could easily wind up that Rand confronts Lanfear or Demandred or Moridin and makes an off-hand comment about Asmodean, and they say "Ha! That fool was killed by Graendal!" or whatever. It's possible.

Neilbert
11-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Because, for obvious reasons, unlike the rest of them Rand has no clue as to Asmodean's current whereabouts.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2009, 02:53 PM
Side note: Rand doesn't know Asmo is dead. As far as he's concerned, Asmo just disappeared. How come Rand has chased down Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal, but hasn't bothered to track down Asmo?Because there is no sign of Asmodean, so as far as Rand is concerned, he may be hiding out in Shara, in an abandoned Ogier Stedding in the Waste, or in the Land of the Madman (about which Rand doesn't know anything at all).

If any of the Forsaken had wanted to send Rand on a stupid goose chase, then dropping a few signed "Asmodean's Greatest Hits" records here and there would have worked wonders.

Weird Harold
11-03-2009, 03:57 PM
So he's effectively saying Graendal did it, right? I mean, he eliminated the possibility of BF'ing Graendal back so far that Asmodean comes back to life. He didn't even qualify it to suggest it might not have been Graendal.

Nice.
It seemed to me that he was saying that Greandal was NOT balefired back far enough for the question to be an issue. She wasn't balefired back 200+ days so whether she killed him or not, he's still dead.

EDITED to add a crtical three letter word. :D

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 04:15 PM
Yes, I know.

I guess I should take this particular forum more seriously, as no one expects me to be joking about stuff here.

Neilbert
11-03-2009, 05:15 PM
But it is another check in the column that supports it. I'm not saying its definite but there is far more evidence for it than there is for any other explanation. Rand's own POV opinion supports it.

Saying that the Taint was a partial cause in the construction of the voice is nothing I haven't been saying for a very long time. Barrier degradation has nothing to do with it. However, it's been a while since I tilted at this particular windmill, so lets talk taint barrier degradation.

The strongest correlation between the memories is Rand channeling (or becoming Ta'veren, they happen at the same time). Rand channels the first time, Rand remembers Shayol Ghul. The more he channels the more he remembers. Even the taint degradation crowd agrees on this, though they specify the taint as the cause. However, suddenly, Rand finds himself channeling nothing but pure untainted Saidin, possibly more than anyone else ever has, and he remembers every one of his past lives.

If anything taint barrier degradation has taken a huge hit. Rands saidin addiction is the more likely culprit, probably with some sort of ta'veren predisposition.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 05:27 PM
I asked: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

I asked, in essence, are One Power and True Power balefire the same.

He answered that the True Power is another source of power, that Aes Sedai were researching another source, like a different form of battery, to power their weaves and that in for balefire, what it does is essentially the same between both power sources, but that it has different affects on the individual using the power source (this appeared to be a reference to what True Power does to its user).

WISH I HAD THESE ON TAPE, so I had the exact wording of question and answer...but I'm sure he'll answer them on the record again, because he believed he was on the record, but ustream was messed up at that moment.

I'm glad BS said that. It was the Taint mostly, but it wasn't the only culprit.

And I love how he said in a way he's going insane. Not that he went insane and constructed LTT in his own mind.

I feel BS vindicates my position.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 05:32 PM
However, suddenly, Rand finds himself channeling nothing but pure untainted Saidin, possibly more than anyone else ever has, and he remembers every one of his past lives.

If anything taint barrier degradation has taken a huge hit. Rands saidin addiction is the more likely culprit, probably with some sort of ta'veren predisposition.

I don't see why the cleansing of saidin necessarily leads to the barriers suddenly being back in place.

To use an analogy:

My parents got divorced and I stopped speaking to my father six years ago. I get sick with a terminal disease and as a result start communicating more openly with my family and get back in touch with my father. It's not a perfect relationship, but we're communicating. By a miracle of medicine, my disease is cured. There's no logical reason why I should suddenly start ignoring my father again.

Similarly, if the barrier falls, there's no reason that the cleansing of saidin should reestablish the barriers. If anything, the memories would stay around. Or are you proposing that his mind be magically wiped and he starts back where he was in Two Rivers?

Terez
11-03-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm glad BS said that. It was the Taint mostly, but it wasn't the only culprit.
Now you're putting words in his mouth.

I feel BS vindicates my position.
This from the guy who hasn't even got the wherewithal to vote for the position he argues from....

Sodas
11-03-2009, 05:58 PM
Now you're putting words in his mouth.


This from the guy who hasn't even got the wherewithal to vote for the position he argues from....

Lol. BS just debunked your theory and all you got is insults.

Typical...

Terez
11-03-2009, 06:11 PM
He didn't even come close to debunking it (even if it hadn't already been proven in the books). But you put words in his mouth. Go back and read what he said again, and then what you said, and see if you can figure it out.

I don't have much faith in you figuring it out, but I'm sure everyone else knows what I'm talking about.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2009, 06:26 PM
He didn't even come close to debunking it (even if it hadn't already been proven in the books). But you put words in his mouth. Go back and read what he said again, and then what you said, and see if you can figure it out.

I don't have much faith in you figuring it out, but I'm sure everyone else knows what I'm talking about.
You keep appealing to the rest of Theoryland, Terez. Why do you do that?

Anyway, I have no idea what Sodas is talking about. How did what BS said in any way debunk Construct theory? Even if the Taint is the primary cause of the Voice, that still has no impact on whether the Voice is "real." It could be a construct, it could be a leftover personality incarnation, or it could be...whatever Sodas thinks it is.

Terez
11-03-2009, 06:32 PM
You keep appealing to the rest of Theoryland, Terez. Why do you do that?
It's my way of saying there's no point in arguing with him because he's the only one that doesn't get it. But maybe I was wrong...

Even if the Taint is the primary cause of the Voice
That's not what BS said.

Yuri33
11-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Matt - Question: The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

Brandon: One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a - I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on…this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way an’greal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using an’greal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.


This is very interesting. First of all, I'm pretty sure he was mistaken about the *angreal being "reservoir of power", as he talks about multiplying Rand's stength x100 with the CK later on, and he put a big star next to that part of the answer. But that last part is is something new. Could we be seeing Siuan and/or Leane using *angreal for some purpose? I don't think any of us have thought of those two participating at the front lines of battle or any other situation requiring significant channeling.

Or it could be an awkwardly worded way to refer to Rand's, Moiraine's, and/or Verin's use of angreal to support channelling when they were really fatigued in past books.

Neilbert
11-03-2009, 07:06 PM
I don't see why the cleansing of saidin necessarily leads to the barriers suddenly being back in place.

I don't see what this has to do with what I wrote.

JSUCamel
11-03-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't see what this has to do with what I wrote.

I think maybe I misread or misunderstood what you were saying. Whoops.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 08:05 PM
Anyway, I have no idea what Sodas is talking about. How did what BS said in any way debunk Construct theory?

Because he's telling you the voice was primarily a result of the Taint. Not Rand's mental denial.

Even if the Taint is the primary cause of the Voice, that still has no impact on whether the Voice is "real." It could be a construct, it could be a leftover personality incarnation, or it could be...whatever Sodas thinks it is.

Lol. I have always said real.

This quote debunks construct because it says the voice was created primarily because of the Taint. Not Rand's mind.

Now I'm just using that word debuked because I think its funny, but its clear in this book and in BS's quotes, that LTT's voice was real.

If you don't get what I'm saying, feel free to pm me. I'll happily answer your questions.

Tamyrlin
11-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Brandon said it was influential. I'm not sure why anyone would conclude this supports Real or mental denial to the denial of the other, beyond the fact that it leaves the door open for multiple things to be going on.

I think it's a mix of the Pattern, being the Dragon, the taint, Rand's paranoia about these new memories.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm just teasing about it debunking, Tam.

This is the second statement from Brandon that leaves the door wide open to interpretation.

Sodas
11-03-2009, 11:19 PM
Brandon said it was influential. I'm not sure why anyone would conclude this supports Real

I think it concludes what I had been saying in the other thread. Brandon has a better way with words than I. Influence. Yes, the Taint influenced the barriers between Rand's lives, so that the mad voice of Lews Therin infected his mind. Certaintly, there were other things that influenced LTT, like the Cleansing, which lead to Lews Therin becoming more and more sane. And the Soul, which is resilient. And the body, which I believe healed itself because it was the Champion of Light, Ta'varen, and subject to Healing from time to time.

I think I'm going to need to create a new thread to explain my position more clearly.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor.Because he's telling you the voice was primarily a result of the Taint. Not Rand's mental denial.
One of these things is not like the other.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:27 AM
I guess I should take this particular forum more seriously, as no one expects me to be joking about stuff here.
I've been meaning to berate you about that.

WoT is SERIOUS BUSINESS, dammit.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 01:31 AM
One of these things is not like the other.

That's alright. I still like the phrase :

the taint was an influence on the voice.

where has RJ or BS ever confirmed that Rand's repression of emotions was an influence on the voice.... :p

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 01:56 AM
where has RJ or BS ever confirmed that Rand's repression of emotions was an influence on the voice.... :p
tGS. Whole book.

Game, set, match. ;)

Terez
11-04-2009, 02:40 AM
lol, not just this book either. The evidence of that is all through the series, even from before Rand got Lews Therin's memories.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 05:54 AM
It seemed to me that he was saying that Greandal was NOT balefired back far enough for the question to be an issue. She wasn't balefired back 200+ days so whether she killed him or not, he's still dead.But that assumption depends on accepting the flawed calculation which Brandon gave.

Consider: he started out with assuming that the CK was about 100 times as powerful as Rand. Yet we know the CK totally freaked out the Forsaken because of the utterly enormous amount of Power you could draw with it. We also know that the strongest circle possible was one of 72 people (35 men and 37 women).
This would mean that that utterly outlandish artifact, the CK, was a mere three times as powerful as a maximum circle without any angreal or sa-angreal in it.
So, if Brandon is correct, then in the War of the Power the Forsaken could have matched the CK if they had used a big circle in which every channeler had a strong angreal or a not very strong sa-angreal, and they could have overpowered it if they had had a few stronger sa-angreal in their circle.

Thus, I would say that it is more reasonable to assume that the CK is a thousand times as strong as Rand, or perhaps even more than that. And the time suddenly becomes suspiciously close to being right for not having killed Asmodean after all. Which, of course, leaves the question wide open.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:01 AM
Intellectual dishonesty makes me sick.

Matoyak
11-04-2009, 06:26 AM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/matoyak/SeriousBusiness.png

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 06:38 AM
Intellectual dishonesty makes me sick.Almost as though you wouldn't like meeting any real AS. :D

But to be honest: I do not really think that Rand used the full power of the CK to burn away the fortress, so the argument is moot anyway. Rand used as much as he needed to use, and not (much) more than that.

In the WotP whole cities were burned away with balefire, and what they called a city then was surely a lot bigger than that single fortress. Yet that was done without the CK.
Thus, it is quite possible that Rand did indeed use 100 times the power he could draw unaided in this specific case.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:40 AM
None of that changes the fact that BS knows that Asmodean is not coming back, and that the question is quite closed.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:10 PM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/matoyak/SeriousBusiness.png
Can I borrow that? I think it could come in handy around here for the next month or so. ;)

Sodas
11-04-2009, 12:53 PM
tGS. Whole book.

Game, set, match. ;)

Lol.

You know perfectly well that I was talking about confirmation outside the books. :rolleyes:

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:55 PM
You know perfectly well that I was talking about confirmation outside the books. :rolleyes:
I do know this. I was just injecting a bit of levity into things. ;)

But, enough of that. WoT is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Sodas
11-04-2009, 01:09 PM
I do know this. I was just injecting a bit of levity into things. ;)

But, enough of that. WoT is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Lol. Seriously.

It is serious business. ;)

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Can I borrow that? I think it could come in handy around here for the next month or so. ;)By all means. I found the snakey wheel on the creative commons with a free-use license and just slapped some words on it. Use it to your heart's content. I was considering shrinking it small enough for avatar form. Might shove it into one of those orbs that I like to make so much for forum avatars.:D

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 07:04 PM
I was considering shrinking it small enough for avatar form. Might shove it into one of those orbs that I like to make so much for forum avatars.:D
In case you didn't notice elsewhere, I've already shrunk it a bit...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

If you need it shrinked any further, just lemme know. :)

greatwolf
11-05-2009, 07:18 PM
But that assumption depends on accepting the flawed calculation which Brandon gave.

Consider: he started out with assuming that the CK was about 100 times as powerful as Rand.

Maybe he meant 100 times as powerful as Callandor. I remember Rand thinking he could draw as much as a hundred or thousand men with Callandor in tPoD.

Of course, the other thing about a weak channeler with a saangreal could also be flawed. But he did say he could be in error iirc.

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 08:12 PM
None of that changes the fact that BS knows that Asmodean is not coming back, and that the question is quite closed.

May so, Terez, however why is Brandon relying on the eWoT for evidence and to help see the context of the story when he has the extensive original notes of RJ, not to mention RJ's assistants?? :confused:


To @Bela, nice deductive proof in another thread about why Asmodean should not coming back. The unanswered question I still have about Balefire is how exactly does it function? Is there a randomness element to it, or does it always act consistently? I assume RJ knew exactly how it worked, considering his prior formal education background and interests.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 09:35 PM
In case you didn't notice elsewhere, I've already shrunk it a bit...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

If you need it shrinked any further, just lemme know. :)Heheh, nah, I know how to use image editing software quite good, thanks though. :rolleyes: :p
EDIT: And Felix...really?

Terez
11-05-2009, 10:00 PM
May so, Terez, however why is Brandon relying on the eWoT for evidence and to help see the context of the story when he has the extensive original notes of RJ, not to mention RJ's assistants?? :confused:
What are you talking about?

Key point is, Asmodean is not coming back. ;)

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 11:35 PM
To @Bela, nice deductive proof in another thread about why Asmodean should not coming back.
Does that mean I convinced you? :eek:

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 11:40 PM
Does that mean I convinced you? :eek:

Yes, I found much favor your logic proof. :)

Whereas, I found Brandon's SLC Q&A interview example on the vague side to say the least. No satisfaction.

Bela > BS! :eek:

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 11:45 PM
What are you talking about?

The point being Brandon seems to of relied on the eWoT, bizarrely enough. I'd of thought the original creator of the series would of had superior information resources about the storyline. Why would Brandon even need to use the eWoT?

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 11:50 PM
Does that mean I convinced you? Yes, I found much favor your logic proof. :)
DAMMIT PEOPLE, EVERYBODY LOOK AT THIS!

:D

Tamyrlin
11-06-2009, 11:21 AM
I think he was trying to say, no, Graendal could not have been balefired back far enough for this discussion to have merit.

Tamyrlin
11-06-2009, 11:22 AM
What do you mean about Brandon relying on eWot?

One Armed Gimp
11-06-2009, 11:36 AM
Encyclopedia WoT maybe.

Or maybe he meant ewoks. I have found them to be very creative little furry creatures.

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 11:37 AM
Encyclopedia WoT maybe.

Or maybe he meant ewoks. I have found them to be very creative little furry creatures.

Pretty sure we know what eWoT is. The question is why does Felix think Brandon relies on it?

On that note, I do find Ewoks to be underrated creatures. They're basically the laughingstock of the Far Far Away galaxy, but I mean... they kicked some serious Empire ass.

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 12:06 PM
The point being Brandon seems to of relied on the eWoT, bizarrely enough. I'd of thought the original creator of the series would of had superior information resources about the storyline. Why would Brandon even need to use the eWoT?
At a guess, because it's faster than calling Atlanta for every minor question?

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 12:18 PM
At a guess, because it's faster than calling Atlanta for every minor question?

Why would he call Atlanta? Don't Marie and Alan live in Charleston? And on top of that, I'm sure Brandon has his own copies of all of the notes and things that Marie and Alan and RJ made over the years.

I don't know for sure, as I really didn't pay attention to this aspect of the writing process, but I had thought that Jason, et al, were brought in once the drafts were complete and needed checking for continuity and accuracy.

Tree Brother
11-06-2009, 12:35 PM
What do you mean about Brandon relying on eWot?

I thought he mentioned something like that at the signing you recorded.

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 01:14 PM
Why would he call Atlanta? Don't Marie and Alan live in Charleston?

Oops, had Sportcenter on in the background and typed the wrong city. :(

Still, a quick click or two is quicker than calling long distance and waiting for Maria and Alan to look it up.

I get the impression that he does NOT have copies of all of RJ's references and would still need to consult with Maria even if he did -- hence his new acronym, "MAFO."

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 01:49 PM
Oops, had Sportcenter on in the background and typed the wrong city. :(

Still, a quick click or two is quicker than calling long distance and waiting for Maria and Alan to look it up.

I get the impression that he does NOT have copies of all of RJ's references and would still need to consult with Maria even if he did -- hence his new acronym, "MAFO."

Understandable, though I would argue that he says MAFO when he's on tour and doesn't exactly carry around a truckload of notes.

Marie Curie 7
11-06-2009, 11:07 PM
The point being Brandon seems to of relied on the eWoT, bizarrely enough. I'd of thought the original creator of the series would of had superior information resources about the storyline. Why would Brandon even need to use the eWoT?

Brandon did say at the SLC signing that he uses Encyclopaedia WoT. I don't see that as bizarre at all – I can imagine it being a useful resource even if he has all the notes and electronic versions of the books and all. I just hope that he knows that there are some errors in it. At any rate, I think it's a matter of how the Encyclopaedia is organized and the ease with which one can obtain information about specific characters. Of course he also relies on Charleston. But the Encyclopaedia WoT guy gave him a copy on CD so he can use it even when he doesn't have internet access. Here are the comments that BS made about it:


SLC Signing Report 11/2/09 06:31 PM (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2480566)

staring at about 06:00

I do use the internet fan resources quite a lot. The Encylcopaedia WoT has been extremely useful. This is by a guy named Bob Klutz, who bless his heart, he went through and referenced every time any character appears in any scene, and gives a chapter number and what they did. And you can look them up by their name. Yes. And they're linked. It's all linked, and so I can say, okay, I need to know every scene that Alviarin has been in and what she did in all these scenes, so I can go look them up and see how she talks. And see what was happening around her. I can go click on "Alviarin" and I can go and read in quick everything she's done in the entire series sentence by sentence. I can go click through to those chapters, find those chapters in my electronic copies of the books, look for her dialogue tags, read through how she sounds, and these sorts of things. It's amazingly helpful. So yeah, you're just in awe that Bob did this. I think he's a little shocked he did, too. He actually sent me a copy on CD so I could upload it to my computer, so I don't have to even be connected to the internet to do all this. So, it's amazing.

And then there are some nice comments about Theoryland right after this. :)


SLC Signing Report 11/2/09 06:31 PM (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2480566)

Give a shout out to Mat. Theoryland's been very helpful to see what people are interested in, and what they're curious about, and what they're guessing. Because I know the answers, 'cause they're in the outline that Robert Jordan gave. And it's nice to know what people are really curious about so I can make sure I'm not missing any targets, so to speak. If there are things that a lot of people are talking about, then that can remind me, oh wait a minute, I need to find that in the notes, okay, here's what Robert Jordan said, and then I can include it, and things like that. So, you guys are a lot of help when you spend time doing all this stuff. It actually is...I'm secretly lurking and using all the stuff you're writing.

lol... :D

FelixPax
11-07-2009, 12:41 AM
Brandon did say at the SLC signing that he uses Encyclopaedia WoT. I don't see that as bizarre at all – I can imagine it being a useful resource even if he has all the notes and electronic versions of the books and all. I just hope that he knows that there are some errors in it.

Errors alone are the reason, why I think its bizarre Brandon relied on the eWoT webpage as a reference of characters, geography, events, organizations et la.

Why not rely the resources RJ created alone? Since he did the outlining of the series in advance. I assume that's partially why RJ employed 2 assistants among other reasons, to help organization things related to the series. Did Alan or Maria not create something superior to eWoT for RJ's private use?

Maybe I'm incorrect and RJ lacked the organizational resources of the written story that the eWoT has? :confused:

But the Encyclopaedia WoT guy gave him a copy on CD so he can use it even when he doesn't have internet access. Here are the comments that BS made about it:

Brandon could of downloaded a copy of the eWoT resource easily, as it's already available online for free. That was one of the first things I did, after I learned it was available: download a local copy (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/).

Give a shout out to Mat. Theoryland's been very helpful to see what people are interested in, and what they're curious about, and what they're guessing. Because I know the answers, 'cause they're in the outline that Robert Jordan gave. And it's nice to know what people are really curious about so I can make sure I'm not missing any targets, so to speak. If there are things that a lot of people are talking about, then that can remind me, oh wait a minute, I need to find that in the notes, okay, here's what Robert Jordan said, and then I can include it, and things like that. So, you guys are a lot of help when you spend time doing all this stuff. It actually is...I'm secretly lurking and using all the stuff you're writing.

Yes, I too did notice Brandon did a good job with complex prior relationship between Aludra and Mat in tGS; which I too distinctly recall referring to a while back at Theoryland forums. Aludra, Mat and Tuon --> one giant uncertain love triangle. :)

However, I now wish I'd of spoken up more about he different personalities expressed by the various Aes Sedai Sitters; so Brandon could of done a better job rounding their characters out more fully. Few of the loyalist Sitters seemed, as I recalled they should of been in tGS book.