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View Full Version : did it work properly? - spoilers


lucky with dice
11-04-2009, 08:21 AM
just spotted this little quote which has left me wondering

TGS chapter 37 a force of light

Min felt at her neck, where the bruises of Rand's hand on her neck hadn't faded yet

Why are the bruises still there?? surely when Rand Balefired Semirhage, the bruises should have vanished because Rand had no longer ever been collared and then forced to attack Min.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 08:29 AM
Its been suggested that the bruises are still there because they were the indirect result of Semi and not the direct result. i.e. Semi didn't strangle Min, she directed Rand to do it.

Another quandary associated with the balefire paradox.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 08:51 AM
Its been suggested that the bruises are still there because they were the indirect result of Semi and not the direct result. i.e. Semi didn't strangle Min, she directed Rand to do it.

Another quandary associated with the balefire paradox.

And also, Rand wouldn't have used the TP if not for Semi, so it sort of creates an infinite loop. He wouldn't have killed her if not for what she did.

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 09:15 AM
There is also the whole memory paradox with balefire and possible psychosomatic or fake injuries.

Ivhon
11-04-2009, 10:15 AM
Its also possible that not enough balefire was used to take her back more than a few seconds...at which time Rand was still choking Min.

I tend to go with the indirect business, but there seems to be a tendency here to overstate the temporal effects of balefire.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 11:28 AM
Yeah, it's come up in a thread or two. I think we've concluded someone just needs to ask BS about it.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 11:58 AM
Its also possible that not enough balefire was used to take her back more than a few seconds...at which time Rand was still choking Min.

I tend to go with the indirect business, but there seems to be a tendency here to overstate the temporal effects of balefire.

Also, when Rand (or was it Moiraine?) balefired the darkhounds that had slobbered on Mat in Shadow Rising, Mat still felt a bit of an itch where the saliva had touched his skin. So perhaps Min's wounds were similarly lessened but not completely eliminated.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Also, when Rand (or was it Moiraine?) balefired the darkhounds that had slobbered on Mat in Shadow Rising, Mat still felt a bit of an itch where the saliva had touched his skin. So perhaps Min's wounds were similarly lessened but not completely eliminated.
Only problem with that is, it was directly said that Min's bruises were just starting to show, after the balefire.

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 02:33 PM
to look at it another way if someone had balefired Rand, the bruises would have disappeared, the fact that it took out the one that was controlling him is somewhat different...and as Ivhon said, it's possible that the amount used was small enough that it only took her out for a fraction of a second, like what happened at the end of tFoH where Rand wove tiny streams of balefire, which only removed people for a neglible amount of time.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 03:16 PM
How does BF work on compulsion visa vis memory anyway? If the person using compulsion is BFed, does that remove the memory of being compelled?

:confused: :confused:

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 03:31 PM
I would say that it would remove the compulsion, but not the memory of the compulsion.

Uno
11-04-2009, 09:09 PM
Only problem with that is, it was directly said that Min's bruises were just starting to show, after the balefire.

Could be a question of indirect versus direct effects, but if that's the way balefire works, its destructive potential is rather limited, when you think of it. Suppose you balefire an entire city as much as a couple of hours back in time (which would apparently be quite a lot): how many of those people would in those two hours have left direct effects that go beyond the very local?

That is to say, the local ruler gets out of bed, has some toast, drinks a bit of coffee, and issues a set of orders that have far-reaching consequences all over the land. Then he's balefired, but if the indirect effects still go forward, what really happens is merely that the toast is no longer eaten and the coffee is undrunk, while the wider chain of events proceed as scheduled. That seeems less than pattern-unraveling to me, at least.

If balefire destroys the indirect effects of your actions, even a small amount of the stuff can trigger vast chain reactions, but if it only burns away direct effects, it doesn't seem all that destructive, at least not in the Third Age. It may have been different in the Age of Legends, when technology allowed an individual's direct actions to have a greater impact, but in Rand's age, they tend to rely on other people to get things done.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 09:59 PM
Balefire gives me a headache. And yet I continue to discuss it.

Anyway, Uno, I've mentioned elsewhere that I could see that being the explanation - it just doesn't necessarily jibe with my previous beliefs on balefire. But if BS says that's how it works, then I'll be happy to shrug my shoulders and move along.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 04:43 AM
Balefire gives me a headache.Weird. One would presume that such an effect too would be undone retroactively.

nameless
11-05-2009, 01:58 PM
Weird. One would presume that such an effect too would be undone retroactively.

Unless someone hit the balefire with more balefire, in which case you'd get a headache and strange, unexplained nausea :P