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Davian93
11-04-2009, 08:28 AM
So, another book down and we still have no idea as to where he is or what he is doing.

We got an important clue in the prologue that merely says "his rule is secure and his forces ready". Still no clues as to which country/countries he's in and what forces are his.

Here are the various possibilities that have been bandied about lately for our discussion:

1. Murandy: (i.e. Either King Roedran or the power behind the throne of King Roedran). It doesn't really fit for a couple reasons mainly having to do with Murandy's relative unimportance in the grand scheme of things.

2. The Black Tower: Taim seems to have things in control and the latest overall color scheme for his Palace suggests a strong allegiance to Moridin, not Demandred. Though they could be working together to run Taim. My personal theory is that Taim is a new Chosen so it would preclude anyone but Moridin telling him what to do at this point.

3. Shara: Its possible he's been busy consolidating the Shadow in Shara. However, Graendal's been there to kidnap their leaders and she has no inkling of him being there. Its possible he moved in after her kidnapping trip in LoC however.

4. Seanchan: Its a bit off the wall but perhaps Stage 2 of Semi's decapitation of the Seanchan royal family was the installation of Demandred as a new Emperor of the Seanchan continent. They were allies so its a possibility if a slim one.

5. The Borderlander Armies: Graendal seemed to think its a possibility and it is one of the few powerful military forces still unaccounted for in the books.

6. None of the Above: Its possible we have no clue and will not find out till he strikes.

So what are your thoughts?

reTaardad
11-04-2009, 09:10 AM
1. Murandy: (i.e. Either King Roedran or the power behind the throne of King Roedran). It doesn't really fit for a couple reasons mainly having to do with Murandy's relative unimportance in the grand scheme of things.
Demandred doesn't seem the type to be pulling strings or acting in a position of low power. He's a commander, so playing the king of a weak nation just doesn't fit his personality.

2. The Black Tower: Taim seems to have things in control and the latest overall color scheme for his Palace suggests a strong allegiance to Moridin, not Demandred. Though they could be working together to run Taim. My personal theory is that Taim is a new Chosen so it would preclude anyone but Moridin telling him what to do at this point.

I can see this, but I don't know what his motive would be in this instance.

3. Shara: Its possible he's been busy consolidating the Shadow in Shara. However, Graendal's been there to kidnap their leaders and she has no inkling of him being there. Its possible he moved in after her kidnapping trip in LoC however.
Shara seems kind of out of the loop of the entire story, so I doubt he'd carve out a kingdom in a place that doesn't matter.

4. Seanchan: Its a bit off the wall but perhaps Stage 2 of Semi's decapitation of the Seanchan royal family was the installation of Demandred as a new Emperor of the Seanchan continent. They were allies so its a possibility if a slim one.
This could be possible, considering his alliance with Semi. Becoming emperor is the only option I could see for him, though, and it's pretty far fetched.

5. The Borderlander Armies: Graendal seemed to think its a possibility and it is one of the few powerful military forces still unaccounted for in the books.
You know, I was ready to throw this one out, but something has always bothered me. Why did the Borderlanders leave the Borderlands? Even Rand made a comment about it. Maybe Demandred has a hand in their seeming disregard for defending the Blight. Possible.

6. None of the Above: Its possible we have no clue and will not find out till he strikes.
Sadly, this seems the most likely conclusion.

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 09:11 AM
since your suggestions seem to not be excluding anything, why not...

6) Tear, where King Darlin is in control and is raising a huge army for Rand.

7) Tar Valon, where his ally is/was located, and Elaida (IIRC on Alviarin's suggestions) had the Tower Guard increased.

8) Nowhere, and the gambler is bluffing for all he is worth LOL

Davian93
11-04-2009, 09:29 AM
since your suggestions seem to not be excluding anything, why not...

6) Tear, where King Darlin is in control and is raising a huge army for Rand.

7) Tar Valon, where his ally is/was located, and Elaida (IIRC on Alviarin's suggestions) had the Tower Guard increased.

8) Nowhere, and the gambler is bluffing for all he is worth LOL

All possibilities. "Where is Demandred?" is a far more interesting question to answer than "Who killed Asmo?" and there is far less info to go on.

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 09:30 AM
Maybe there is a big *small* clue in books 4-6, hmmm?

Davian93
11-04-2009, 09:31 AM
Maybe there is a big *small* clue in books 4-6, hmmm?

I was thinking about that.

bowlwoman
11-04-2009, 10:10 AM
Loony theory: Demandred is on the Isle of Madmen and is going to gateway in all the channelers to fight on the side of the Shadow.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2009, 10:10 AM
I like the idea that he is with the Borderlander's group.

How odd will it be to have this group, sworn to defend the last stand before the Blight, facing off against Lan's group and Ituralde's army who will be occupying the lands these troops have abandonded?

I have liked this one for a while, but there doesn't seem to be a strong male character to peg with that group as Demandred-lik.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 10:14 AM
The Borderlanders seems like a red herring. Although reading the Gathering Storm I had a moment where I half expected Demandred to be posing as Hurin, which would have been dumb.

The thing with Demandred is that he's been kept hidden for so long, there has to be some major consequence to his reveal. There's only really three things that would satisfy that criteria at this point. One is the Borderlanders. Two is something regarding Taim and the black tower. The third is that he's been posing as someone relatively close to Rand. There's not really a plausible candidate for the third one.

As an off the wall possibility, what if he's been collecting channelers from the Land of Madmen and all of those discarded by the Sea Folk on random islands?

Davian93
11-04-2009, 10:16 AM
RJ basically said the Land of the Madmen would have no impact on the plot...its simply a space on the map for the BWB.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 10:22 AM
RJ basically said the Land of the Madmen would have no impact on the plot...its simply a space on the map for the BWB.

Ah, never mind then. Was just throwing it out there.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 10:48 AM
The problem with the Borderlander theory is that we saw them all meet and decide to go south. It's been several years since I read that passage, but I don't recall thinking there was any evidence of Compulsion or unreasonable action. They all came together despite their differences and made the decision to move, and there wasn't a clear leader in the group.

Another key point is that Demandred probably won't be posing as the leader himself. He's going to be working through a proxy, which is one reason the Murandy thing might work (assuming there's a lot more to it than just a middling, if geographically central, country).

Davian93
11-04-2009, 11:06 AM
The problem with the Borderlander theory is that we saw them all meet and decide to go south. It's been several years since I read that passage, but I don't recall thinking there was any evidence of Compulsion or unreasonable action. They all came together despite their differences and made the decision to move, and there wasn't a clear leader in the group.

Another key point is that Demandred probably won't be posing as the leader himself. He's going to be working through a proxy, which is one reason the Murandy thing might work (assuming there's a lot more to it than just a middling, if geographically central, country).

That's why I don't think he's with the Borderlanders. I like my wacky Seanchan idea personally. Demandred gating into the Last Battle with the entire Mainland Seanchan military at his back would be awesome. Tuon would freak.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 11:07 AM
Another thought: Who did the Borderland Rulers leave in charge when they all went south?

bowlwoman
11-04-2009, 11:13 AM
As an off the wall possibility, what if he's been collecting channelers from the Land of Madmen and all of those discarded by the Sea Folk on random islands?

OK...I posted the same thing about the Land of the Madmen 4 minutes before you. Jinx???? :)

Davian, do you have a quote where RJ said that the LotM was just a space taker-upper? Because Dragonmount's write-up of the BYU midnight signing has this in the Q&A section:

Question (Claire): Will we see the Land of Madmen in any of the last books?

Answer: RAFO.

I think it's quite plausible that's where Demandred has been hiding out. I also like the idea of him gathering all the castoff Sea Folk male channelers, and perhaps some from Seandar as well. While RJ has explicitly said we won't see the lands of Shara or others directly on screen, there's no reason to believe that people from those areas can't show up in Randland (especially with Travelling). Besides, this is an entire world conflict, so I'd think that there'd be representatives from every land at the LB, whether on the side of the Light or Dark.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 11:18 AM
OK...I posted the same thing about the Land of the Madmen 4 minutes before you. Jinx???? :)




Great minds... :-). I think I had already clicked reply before your post showed up, but I might have just missed it.

Back to Demandred, each time I re-read LoC I look for clues since the book starts and ends with him and his "Haven't I done well, Great Lord" hints that something in that book was his handiwork, but if it's not something to do with Taim and the Black Tower I don't know what it is.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 11:20 AM
Demandred better have a cool death after all this build up.

I will look for that Land of the Madmen reference.

bowlwoman
11-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Great minds... :-). I think I had already clicked reply before your post showed up, but I might have just missed it.

Yeah, the timing of the two posts makes it pretty clear that we posted it, independently, at the same time. Great minds indeed!

Back to Demandred, each time I re-read LoC I look for clues since the book starts and ends with him and his "Haven't I done well, Great Lord" hints that something in that book was his handiwork, but if it's not something to do with Taim and the Black Tower I don't know what it is.

Well, he's up to no good, that's for sure. Lots of places for him to be: Seandar, Shara, LotM (maybe), Borderland armies, Murandy...has anyone compiled a comprehensive list of possible Demandred sighting locations?

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 11:47 AM
Seandar would make some sort of sense. We know he had an alliance with Semirhage, so part of that plan could be to control the Seanchan on both sides of the ocean.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Seandar would make some sort of sense. We know he had an alliance with Semirhage, so part of that plan could be to control the Seanchan on both sides of the ocean.
Yeah, but Mesaana had an alliance with them as well.

Honestly this may be a good reason to put him with the Black Tower - all three major channeling forces under the control of one of the Chosen.

Or, in a really fun twist - Basheredred!!

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 11:55 AM
Yeah, but Mesaana had an alliance with them as well.

Honestly this may be a good reason to put him with the Black Tower - all three major channeling forces under the control of one of the Chosen.

Or, in a really fun twist - Basheredred!!

But if they didn't have someone in Seandar (playing devil's advocate for this idea) there'd be a huge supply of channelers they'd have no string tied around. Assuming Taim is in some way tied to the Forsaken, perhaps they trust him to man that particular battle station.

My current theory on Taim is that he was recruited by Ishamael/Moridin set up as a false dragon to create more skepticism when the real dragon declared and taught enough to keep himself alive and be an asset to the Shadow.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 12:01 PM
But if they didn't have someone in Seandar (playing devil's advocate for this idea) there'd be a huge supply of channelers they'd have no string tied around. Assuming Taim is in some way tied to the Forsaken, perhaps they trust him to man that particular battle station.
To play... um, angel's advocate, I guess?... Semirhage had all of Seanchan wrapped up pretty well simply due to their crazy-strict heirarchy. And then she destroyed all that by massacring the Royal Family, throwing the continent into chaos. Not a good move if Demandred's running the continent and in an alliance with Semi.


I'm gonna hit the ground running on Basheredred, though. We've all been curious why Bashere didn't recognize Taim when they first encountered each other in LoC. Obviously, Taimandredites postulated a crazy Mask-of-Mirrors effect, assuming that Taim had been replaced, etc. What if it was Bashere who was replaced, and that's why he didn't recognize Taim...? :D

And of course, he's in charge of all of Rand's non-channeling, non-Aiel armies. His rule is pretty secure. :p

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 12:05 PM
Problem with that theory is that Faile would have noticed something.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 12:12 PM
Problem with that theory is that Faile would have noticed something.

Exactly. Darlin would make more sense, and even that is a stretch.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Problem with that theory is that Faile would have noticed something.

He would have Compelled her so that is not an issue.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 12:56 PM
He would have Compelled her so that is not an issue.

We don't see his initial interaction with Faile, but we do see him talking to Perrin and the subsequent get together with the two of them plus Faile and Lady Bashere. Bashere's actions seem very genuine there to me and there's no sign that Perrin was compelled. If Demandred is Bashere, it would have to have happened after that.

Additionally, if Demandred is Bashere, it seems like he would have been able to free Semirhage at some point without having to appeal to Moridin for help.

bowlwoman
11-04-2009, 01:22 PM
And the other problem with Bashere is that we've seen him on-screen prior to CoT.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
We don't see his initial interaction with Faile, but we do see him talking to Perrin and the subsequent get together with the two of them plus Faile and Lady Bashere. Bashere's actions seem very genuine there to me and there's no sign that Perrin was compelled. If Demandred is Bashere, it would have to have happened after that.

Additionally, if Demandred is Bashere, it seems like he would have been able to free Semirhage at some point without having to appeal to Moridin for help.

I wasn't arguing in favor of Bashere. I was merely pointing out that Faile's reaction to him is not a solid indicator of anything as she could very easily ahve been Compelled.

Tree Brother
11-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I wasn't arguing in favor of Bashere. I was merely pointing out that Faile's reaction to him is not a solid indicator of anything as she could very easily ahve been Compelled.

Not Bashere. I do wonder though. After his wife was attacked, he made some sort of decision (like he was being blackmailed/threatened). What was it? Have we found out?

Trutino
11-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Not Bashere. I do wonder though. After his wife was attacked, he made some sort of decision (like he was being blackmailed/threatened). What was it? Have we found out?

Hmm...Interesting. Remember in CoT Min notices something "dark" about Bashere and says "if he turns against you or dies..." He's definitely a wild card. Not Demandred's alter ego since we met him long ago, but a wild card.

greatwolf
11-04-2009, 01:49 PM
While looking through tSR I noticed Lanfear spoke to Rand in the stone about what sammy and moggy hate for LT but left out demandred. Why? I'd have thought Demnadred's hatred for LT was quite memorable and he hasn't hidden his desire to kill Rand. So why was Lanfear so forgetful? Did she think to protect Rand by not mentioning that name around him? Or herself?

Anyway, we know a little more about Demandred now than we knew before. Apparently he's got a job at the BT (from book 9) and now we know he has an army and a rule. And of course, he somewhere to the south, using a proxy.

Since he has an army, I don't think the size of the estate he's holding matters. The key question is what other operations he has outside the BT. Or if the BT is the center of ops.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 02:00 PM
Not Bashere. I do wonder though. After his wife was attacked, he made some sort of decision (like he was being blackmailed/threatened). What was it? Have we found out?

Yes, he goes with Logain to reunite with Rand.

Wunderwaffe
11-04-2009, 02:25 PM
Any possibility that Demandred is turning/turned to the Light as a result of the Great Lord's "request" to use balefire? He flipped sides in the War of Power, why not in this Age?

Maybe he had an epiphany or gained some insight about what the Great Lord's ultimate plan really is. Few would side with the Great Lord if they knew it meant the end of the world -- the end of your life by extension.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 02:57 PM
Any possibility that Demandred is turning/turned to the Light as a result of the Great Lord's "request" to use balefire? He flipped sides in the War of Power, why not in this Age?
Nah. Man's got a grudge, he's not focused on anything else.

Anyway, he flipped sides 'cuz of LTT. He's certainly not going to switch back to the side the Dragon's currently on. Even if it makes sense. ;)

Trutino
11-04-2009, 03:24 PM
Any possibility that Demandred is turning/turned to the Light as a result of the Great Lord's "request" to use balefire? He flipped sides in the War of Power, why not in this Age?

Maybe he had an epiphany or gained some insight about what the Great Lord's ultimate plan really is. Few would side with the Great Lord if they knew it meant the end of the world -- the end of your life by extension.


Nah. Man's got a grudge, he's not focused on anything else.

Anyway, he flipped sides 'cuz of LTT. He's certainly not going to switch back to the side the Dragon's currently on. Even if it makes sense. ;)

Would he ever try to go his own way, against both sides? He hates the Dragon but I don't think he's a nihilist like Moridin so, like you said, he might not like the idea of everything ending. Though I don't know that he'd get very far with this plan, particularly with Shaidar Haran running around.

Probably too wacky of an idea. Thought I'd throw it out there anyway, though.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Eh, Demandred just doesn't strike me as the "turning his back on evil" type. ~shrug~

Neilbert
11-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Anyone recall the quote that says Demandred was involved with Rand's kidnapping, despite how it ended? (IIRC it was Semirhage)

The only thing I can think of that fits Demandred liking to use proxies, and doing something well in LoC is his running the Black Tower using Taim as a proxy. It does fit, all three major channeling groups under Forsaken supervision, and what better army than an army of channelers?

That's my guess anyways.

nameless
11-04-2009, 04:44 PM
Demandred doesn't seem the type to be pulling strings or acting in a position of low power. He's a commander, so playing the king of a weak nation just doesn't fit his personality.


What gave you this idea? We've been told outright that his standard MO is to use proxies. I suspect he's the one responsible for Roedran's overnight transformation from drunken playboy to military genius, but I doubt that's the only thing he's been up to. Other possible activities include driving Masema even crazier with glowing apparitions, Compelling the Whitecloak's High Inquisitor, and pulling the strings at the Black Tower through Taim. We've seen Taim reporting to Moridin in later books, but keep in mind Moridin hadn't been reincarnated yet at the time of Taim's mysterious jailbreak. The only male Forsaken active at the time were Sammael, Demandred, and Rahvin, so if Taim did receive Forsaken training it must have been one of those three.

Bonzi77
11-04-2009, 05:17 PM
What gave you this idea? We've been told outright that his standard MO is to use proxies. I suspect he's the one responsible for Roedran's overnight transformation from drunken playboy to military genius, but I doubt that's the only thing he's been up to. Other possible activities include driving Masema even crazier with glowing apparitions, Compelling the Whitecloak's High Inquisitor, and pulling the strings at the Black Tower through Taim. We've seen Taim reporting to Moridin in later books, but keep in mind Moridin hadn't been reincarnated yet at the time of Taim's mysterious jailbreak. The only male Forsaken active at the time were Sammael, Demandred, and Rahvin, so if Taim did receive Forsaken training it must have been one of those three.

The implication is that Taim has been channeling for a while prior to his becoming a factor in this series. If that's the case, the only candidate to be his instructor/benefactor is Ishamael, pre-death.

Terez
11-04-2009, 05:20 PM
That doesn't mean Demandred couldn't have snatched him up after Ishamael died - in fact, the evidence seems to point to SOMEONE giving Taim orders before Moridin appeared (though it's hard to say how long Moridin had been around before we first saw him).

Davian93
11-04-2009, 05:47 PM
That doesn't mean Demandred couldn't have snatched him up after Ishamael died - in fact, the evidence seems to point to SOMEONE giving Taim orders before Moridin appeared (though it's hard to say how long Moridin had been around before we first saw him).

Of course there's always the possibility that Taim was originally a good guy who was "convinced" to be bad sometime after Dumai's Wells. That's my pet theory on it anyway.

Otherwise, why would Demandred send his lackey Taim to prevent his ally (Mesaana) from kidnapping Rand?

1Powerslave
11-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Speaking of orders, Demandred appearantly has ordered Asha'man, Torval and that bunch.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 05:52 PM
Of course there's always the possibility that Taim was originally a good guy who was "convinced" to be bad sometime after Dumai's Wells. That's my pet theory on it anyway.

Otherwise, why would Demandred send his lackey Taim to prevent his ally (Mesaana) from kidnapping Rand?
To establish Rand's trust in the Black Tower? It really worked, too.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 05:54 PM
To establish Rand's trust in the Black Tower? It really worked, too.

Its possible. I think Taim was turned afterward myself.

1Powerslave
11-04-2009, 05:57 PM
Well I think, Taimandred rising! :)

fdsaf3
11-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Here are my thoughts on Demandred.

1. I might be the only one, but who says that Demandred has to be out in the world somewhere? Honest question: did RJ ever specify that the Forsaken all took on leadership positions in the aristocracy/power structure of the existing culture? I know it's been the MO for most of the other Forsaken, but still, I'm not sold that we need to go looking for him. Maybe he hasn't been found because he hasn't been in one place at a time long enough to be tracked down.

Totally random "theory": what if Demandred has taken multiple guises, trying to spread chaos and disorder by throwing lots of small "wrenches" into Rand's system instead of one big one? I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas for why we haven't seen him yet - aside from a few POVs.

2. Could Demandred be the force marshaling all the DO's troops together in the Blight? I know he is a military genius, so maybe the DO realized that and is using him to plan attacks against the Light.

I'm going to try and skim through the few POVs we have of Demandred to see if I can support any of these ideas, but I just thought I'd throw these out there to see if anyone has any thoughts.

X.X.
11-05-2009, 05:58 PM
It was amusing when Grandael's thoughts regarding what he's up to about Demandred damn near mirrored mine exactly.

Anyway, with some things in TGS, I have a partial Demandred theory:

From the LoC prologue The Caps Locked One mentions using balefire in his service along with the names of who lives and who dies. Sounding like a balefire hitlist of some sorts. But then, frustratingly, we don't catch whiff of these shenanigans anywhere. Not even offscreen hints.

Fast forward to TGS. There's some strong evidence that there's some literal meaning to the "dragon and the land are one". If we assume that all the spoilage, crappy weather, and what not is the influence of the Caps Locked One, then it seems Rand's...humanity (for lack of a better term) is a dial setting. The "worse" he gets, the worse the DO's influence on the world is.

But why now or recently? The Pattern has been keeping the Dark One at bay. Hard to effect threads when they're tightly woven together. Now enter Demandred. Gradually and covertly as to not draw attention, he's been carrying out the DO's balefire hit list allowing the DO to affect the world stronger via Rand. Where this would lead ultimately, a few things come to mind, but that's not for this thread.

Although, in the same book, we get this tidbit: "My rule is secure...I prepare for war, We will be ready". Which indicates he's in command somewhere. Kind of throws the ninja balefire quest off a bit. Or perhaps he can handle both.

My best guess is Saldaea as some top level advisor to Tenobia. Taim is Saldaean and his features were so similar to Demandred's description it had us believing they were the same person, making Demandred's feature seem like a natural fit for the place. Plus, Taim seems to have received training from someone out therein Saldaea....

Trutino
11-05-2009, 07:30 PM
Here are my thoughts on Demandred.

1. I might be the only one, but who says that Demandred has to be out in the world somewhere? Honest question: did RJ ever specify that the Forsaken all took on leadership positions in the aristocracy/power structure of the existing culture? I know it's been the MO for most of the other Forsaken, but still, I'm not sold that we need to go looking for him. Maybe he hasn't been found because he hasn't been in one place at a time long enough to be tracked down.

Totally random "theory": what if Demandred has taken multiple guises, trying to spread chaos and disorder by throwing lots of small "wrenches" into Rand's system instead of one big one? I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas for why we haven't seen him yet - aside from a few POVs.

2. Could Demandred be the force marshaling all the DO's troops together in the Blight? I know he is a military genius, so maybe the DO realized that and is using him to plan attacks against the Light.

I'm going to try and skim through the few POVs we have of Demandred to see if I can support any of these ideas, but I just thought I'd throw these out there to see if anyone has any thoughts.


Building off of what you are saying, In tGS all Demandred says about where he is is "My rule is secure...I gather for war...we will be ready."

The rest is all Graendal's speculation. Why does he have to rule a country? Couldn't he, perhaps with the Black Tower (yes, I know they might be taking orders from multiple sources) be organizing dreadlord types? "My rule is secure" could mean a number of things.

"I gather for war" could mean a traditional army or something else. There are a lot of darkfriends, channelers and non-channelers, who have been displaced lately. I assume they are organizing somehow.

We know that he likes to use proxies, we know that Graendal like to speculate on his whereabouts but her thoughts might be totally off. We know that we haven't seen his on-screen persona. We've seen the borderland rulers and some of their advisers already. And I'm sorry, the whole King of Ghealdan thing is just so boring. I can't bring myself to believe it's that.

P.S. are we sure the borderlanders from the beginning are going to help the good side? They seem so compelled...

Weird Harold
11-05-2009, 07:45 PM
Here are my thoughts on Demandred.

1. ... Maybe he hasn't been found because he hasn't been in one place at a time long enough to be tracked down.

Totally random "theory": what if Demandred has taken multiple guises, trying to spread chaos and disorder by throwing lots of small "wrenches" into Rand's system instead of one big one? I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas for why we haven't seen him yet - aside from a few POVs.

I have proposed in the past that Demandred isn't posing as anyone exept Demandred. He doesn't need a multitude of identities, he just needs to be himself and issue orders to DFs in random locations.

If he has a hidey-hole he goes to between chaos spreading expeditions, it's just some DF Lord's manor where he can be himself as an honored (feared) guest.

IOW, a search for Demandred's alter ego is pointless because it doesn't exist.

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 08:23 PM
completely in parallel to this thread the idea came to me that Demandred was with the Borderlanders. The post is here in the "Another Gauntlet" thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71606#post71606) because I think that the hint that BS is talking about might well refer to Demandred getting control of the Borderlanders.

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 09:30 PM
Shara seems kind of out of the loop of the entire story, so I doubt he'd carve out a kingdom in a place that doesn't matter.

There were more references to Shara in tGS than in KoD, I highly doubt that was an accident in the storyline.


Mesaana's whereabouts have been a mystery since at least CoT,Ch21, if not during the Cleansing when she alone of the Chosen did not show up to attack Rand (WH,Ch35, CoT,Ch21). Not to mention a prior meeting of the Chosen she missed as well (WH,Ch13). Why is everyone so sure that Mesaana is only has interests surrounding the White Tower?

Why wouldn't both Demandred and Mesaana attempt to control the Sharans together? After all Shara has a higher percentage of channelers per capita than does the whole Westlands. Well, someone of the Shadow is active in Shara now, and Demandred is the one Chosen for sure unaccounted for, is that just chance or not?

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:34 PM
There were more references to Shara in tGS than in KoD, I highly doubt that was an accident in the storyline.


Mesaana's whereabouts have been a mystery since at least CoT,Ch21, if not during the Cleansing when she alone of the Chosen did not show up to attack Rand (WH,Ch35, CoT,Ch21). Not to mention a prior meeting of the Chosen she missed as well (WH,Ch13). Why is everyone so sure that Mesaana is only has interests surrounding the White Tower?

Why wouldn't both Demandred and Mesaana attempt to control the Sharans together? After all Shara has a higher percentage of channelers per capita than does the whole Westlands. Well, someone of the Shadow is active in Shara now, and Demandred is the one Chosen for sure unaccounted for, is that just chance or not?

Simply because Shara won't be brought into the series at this stage, rendering anything they may be doing there unimportant. Focus is on Randland and will remain there

Terez
11-05-2009, 09:37 PM
Just because the story won't visit Shara doesn't mean the Sharans might not be brought into the story.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 09:40 PM
Just because the story won't visit Shara doesn't mean the Sharans might not be brought into the story.

Perhaps, just seems very unlikely. No need to add complications to an already intricate plot. If they were introduced I doubt justice could be done to them.

As I was taught in primary school

Introduction-development-complication-crisis-resolution. We're now at resolution stage.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 09:42 PM
I really like the idea of Demandred using Semirhage's chaos left behind in Seandar as a way to put some ole iron-fisted rule into play. AKA, maybe Semirhage was helping Demandred out by going on a murderin' spree. (Whether she realized it or not?)
That said, it will surprise me greatly if this turns out true. But damn do I like it.

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 09:46 PM
completely in parallel to this thread the idea came to me that Demandred was with the Borderlanders. The post is here in the "Another Gauntlet" thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71606#post71606) because I think that the hint that BS is talking about might well refer to Demandred getting control of the Borderlanders.

One problem with Demandred taking control of the Borderlander armies or by proxy their four countries, is the Shadow's original plan put into action by Ishamael already had a role to play for those Kingdoms rulers. Why would Demandred play a part in Ishamael's own plans, and not create a separate power base?

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 09:57 PM
Simply because Shara won't be brought into the series at this stage, rendering anything they may be doing there unimportant. Focus is on Randland and will remain there

Unimportant? How will the remaining Shiado Aiel in Three Folds Land will be destroyed then? Prophecy suggests that the non-believing, non-following Aiel of the Car'a'carn will die. The Seanchan aren't in the Waste at all.

Just hard to see Trolloc's alone killing a whole clan of Aiel out of the north; whereas the Shiado Aiel holds are relativity closer to Shara land border. Who else better to kill the rest of Shiado Aiel than the Sharans, their nearest neighbors. Who likely are led by the Shadow now.

There will be some focus on the Waste in the future books, why?


- Aviendha's Rhuidean testing
- Bendhuin, sept chief of the Green Salts, leaves Malden for Rhuidean to try to become clan chief of the Shaido.
- the Ogier were inviting to come to Rhuidean, to help repair and build the city. Yet the Avendesora is probably the main reason, why the Ogier will become involved in the Waste in the future. Will Loial tree-sing to the Avendesora?


Besides why did we learn about a Sharan four-legged bug found on ships in tGS, from one Aes Sedai pov? Unless information?

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 09:59 PM
plans change.

The theory isn't perfectly, none are, but it would seem to me that having the borderlanders, hostile to Rand cause garrisoned in or around Far Madding could be a critical problem to the Light forces.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 10:13 PM
Unimportant? How will the remaining Shiado Aiel in Three Folds Land will be destroyed then? Prophecy suggests that the non-believing, non-following Aiel of the Car'a'carn will die. The Seanchan aren't in the Waste at all.

Just hard to see Trolloc's alone killing a whole clan of Aiel out of the north; whereas the Shiado Aiel holds are relativity closer to Shara land border.

There will be some focus on the Waste in the future books, why?


- Aviendha's Rhuidean testing
- Bendhuin, sept chief of the Green Salts, leaves Malden for Rhuidean to try to become clan chief of the Shaido.
- the Ogier were inviting to come to Rhuidean, to help repair and build the city. Yet the Avendesora is probably the main reason, why the Ogier will become involved in the Waste in the future. Will Loial tree-sing to the Avendesora?


The Shaido are not by any means a whole clan. A fraction of a fraction of a clan, if you will.

Aviendha will get time, but I don't expect to see her visions. Maybe a POV as she gathers her strength etc before entering.

If we have to suffer Bendhuin trying to become clan chief i'll go on a fairly cliched killing spree.

Same with the Ogier. I figure Avendesora needs no singing. If the Ogier reappear, it had better be to cleave heads with massive axes.

The time for subtlety in the series has finished.

As a complete aside, Leane needs to meet, bond and marry Tam.

That would be nice

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 10:17 PM
plans change.

The theory isn't perfectly, none are, but it would seem to me that having the borderlanders, hostile to Rand cause garrisoned in or around Far Madding could be a critical problem to the Light forces.

Yes, true. However who is manipulating the Borderlanders among the Chosen and Shadow? Is a plan of Ishamael's implemented by Demandred then? Or is Ishamael using his new minions to do the implementation, Moghedien & Cyndane? Graendal's pov in tGS Prologue seems to suggest that Demandred is not with the Borderlanders, as she had spies in their camp.

FelixPax
11-05-2009, 10:33 PM
The Shaido are not by any means a whole clan. A fraction of a fraction of a clan, if you will.

There are 13 Clans, if one includes the Jenn Clan. And yes, the Shaido are a whole clan. We know of at least these Shiado septs:


Domai
Green Salts
Jonine
Jumai
Moshaine


Yes, a part of the Shiado's Maidens society does follow Rand as Car'a'carn. But that's it as far as we know, unless their gai'shain now; whether by the Aiel with Perrin army, the Aiel Clans in Cairhien, or captured by the Seanchan.

That means 11 of the 12 Societies part of the Shiado Clan, are not following Rand's leadership:

Black Eyes (Seia Doon)
Brothers of the Eagle (Far Aldazar Din)
Dawn Runners (Rahien Sorei)
Knife Hands (Sovin Nai)
Mountain Dancers (Hama N'dore)
Night Spears (Cor Darei)
Red Shields (Aethan Dor)
Stone Dogs (Shae'en M'taal)
Thunder Walkers (Sha'mad Conde)
True Bloods (Tain Shari)
Water Seekers (Duadhe Mahdi'in)




The time for subtlety in the series has finished.

ROLF. Why would TOR Inc. ever want to stop publishing WoT books, if they hit #1 Nytimes chart? ;)

As a complete aside, Leane needs to meet, bond and marry Tam.

Huh? Talk about coming out of left field, where did you ever make this connection? :confused:

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:18 PM
There are 13 Clans, if one includes the Jenn Clan. And yes, the Shaido are a whole clan. We know of at least these Shiado septs:


Domai
Green Salts
Jonine
Jumai
Moshaine


Yes, a part of the Shiado's Maidens society does follow Rand as Car'a'carn. But that's it as far as we know, unless their gai'shain now; whether by the Aiel with Perrin army, the Aiel Clans in Cairhien, or captured by the Seanchan.

That means 11 of the 12 Societies part of the Shiado Clan, are not following Rand's leadership:

Black Eyes (Seia Doon)
Brothers of the Eagle (Far Aldazar Din)
Dawn Runners (Rahien Sorei)
Knife Hands (Sovin Nai)
Mountain Dancers (Hama N'dore)
Night Spears (Cor Darei)
Red Shields (Aethan Dor)
Stone Dogs (Shae'en M'taal)
Thunder Walkers (Sha'mad Conde)
True Bloods (Tain Shari)
Water Seekers (Duadhe Mahdi'in)






ROLF. Why would TOR Inc. ever want to stop publishing WoT books, if they hit #1 Nytimes chart? ;)



Huh? Talk about coming out of left field, where did you ever make this connection? :confused:

You've put a lot more thought into this than me, so any arguments on my behalf are purely obstinance.

I think we saw the last ebb of the Shaido in KoD. I really don't expect a reappearance from them at any stage. Galina's final PoV was strong suggestion of this.

I'm guessing a fuckload of Shaido were killed in Perrins attacks. If they had 200,000 (was that the figure?) I expect they not a quarter of that now.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:22 PM
As for the Tam-Leane plot!?

They're the only last two strings unattached. Tam can't go back (so maybe he'll die), Leane still has nothing. I thought Logain and her would be perfect. Alas.

nameless
11-06-2009, 01:40 AM
On paper Tam and Leane are perfect for each other, but something about the idea doesn't click with me. Maybe it's because Leane taught Min how to pull off the whole "Domani seductress" act, so having Min's teacher get together with Rand's teacher would just be too cutesy.

Jonai
11-06-2009, 01:46 AM
:RE Shaido

It's hard to say how many are actually still alive but a shitload have died. Something like 20,000 plus spearfighters at dumai's wells, shit load at malden, and lets not forget all the septs that sammael put out in other places, like in front of Rand's army. Besides that, didn't the Shaido fight the Seanchan once and lose over 10,000? The Shaido may have a couple hundred thousand members still living, but they are crippled in more ways than one. Almost all of their channeling wise ones are dead or captured, and a majority of their spear-fighters. I wouldn't be surprised if other clans decided to rise up and wipe them out back in the three-fold land.

RadinReborn
11-22-2009, 07:20 AM
I have my very own wacky theory regarding Demandred.

He has not positioned himself in any kingdom. No, he is hiding with an army. Band of the Red Hand.

He is in fact Talmanes. (the black fox indeed.)

The gambler hiding with the gambler, imagine that.
Positioned so that it would be easy to arrange an accident for poor ole Mat when the time is right, who better to take over the Band of the Red Hand than Talmanes?

In fact, is it not Mat that muses:

He could be an intense one, Talmanes. Early in their association, Mat had assumed him to stern, unable to have fun. He was learning better. Talmanes wasnīt stern, he was just reserved. But at times, there seemed to be a twinkle to the noblemanīs eyes, as if he were laughing at the world, despite that set of the jaw and his unsmiling lips.

(ch20, TGS)

Iīm not sure how he would use the Band in the last battle once he takes over (taking over would fail of course) but thatīs nowhere as important as having my very own wacky theory.

Oh, wait. Maybe what Barid Bel Talmanes wants is to get his hands on those dragons Mat is planning to make. And to destroy the band, thus having one less capable army to oppose him.
Yes, that would surely be a heavy blow to the Dragon Reborn. BaridTal would like that.

WinespringBrother
11-22-2009, 10:13 AM
I have my very own wacky theory regarding Demandred.

He has not positioned himself in any kingdom. No, he is hiding with an army. Band of the Red Hand.

He is in fact Talmanes. (the black fox indeed.)

The gambler hiding with the gambler, imagine that.
Positioned so that it would be easy to arrange an accident for poor ole Mat when the time is right, who better to take over the Band of the Red Hand than Talmanes?

In fact, is it not Mat that muses:



(ch20, TGS)

Iīm not sure how he would use the Band in the last battle once he takes over (taking over would fail of course) but thatīs nowhere as important as having my very own wacky theory.

Oh, wait. Maybe what Barid Bel Talmanes wants is to get his hands on those dragons Mat is planning to make. And to destroy the band, thus having one less capable army to oppose him.
Yes, that would surely be a heavy blow to the Dragon Reborn. BaridTal would like that.

Welcome to Theoryland, Radin! If you haven't already, you may want to visit the New User's board and introduce yourself.

Anyway, it is impossible that Demandred is posing as Talmanes since RJ has directly said that (at least as of KOD) that Demandred's alter ego has not appeared on screen, which would invalidate the fairly visible Talmanes.

RadinReborn
11-22-2009, 11:05 AM
Thanks winespringBroher!


Ah, yes, yes i would. To bad, i was rather happy with it even if even i saw it as unlikely that Demandred was Talmanes.

Oh btw, i rather like the Leane-Tam thingy, that would be a nice development.

Ozymandias
11-22-2009, 11:10 AM
I think we can effectively rule out Murandy and the Borderland armies.

Its important to remember that Demandred is massing an army to fight at the Last Battle. It seems like such a self-evident point that maybe we're overlooking it. But... c'mon. If Demandred is pulling the strings on the Borderland armies, all well and good, but there is NO way that when the hordes of Trollocs show up, he's gonna be able to get several hundred thousand people to fight alongside them. Much more likely is if he's in Shara, or Seanchan, where absolute obedience is expected and exposure to Shadowspawn is limited enough that perhaps he can convince people to fight alongside them. Or at least to fight against Rand's forces in some other location. The only use he can have for the Borderlanders is in denying them use to Rand.

And he made it quite clear he's going to be actively ready to fight.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2009, 11:33 AM
The Trollocs might just be meant to keep some major armies away from the actual battlefield. They do seem to be poised to keep the Seanchan locked up where they are now, for instance.

Trutino
11-22-2009, 11:41 AM
I have a hard time believing that Demandred is hanging out with a group that we've spent time with. It would be so lame to, say, have Tenobia call for her hairdresser and it was Demandred all along. Or in the Black Tower have Taim say "Hey Doug! Come over here!" and it's Demandred.

The most likely scenarios at this point (and these are not my ideas or even new ideas) is that Demandred maybe has a few places where he controls proxies and is waiting to flip a switch. The big thing I think he is doing, which may or may not coincide with the first, is gathering the dreadlord army for the giant battle in/near Caemlyn that Dominic at 13th Depository thinks will be the climax of ToM.

Demandred has been so built up and is the last AoL Rand-foe that needs to be taken care of before he deals with Moridin. The fact that he has been so built up (ideally) means that he gets a major confrontation. If there is a major battle in Andor (likely the first major battle of a larger "Last Battle"), it would make sense from a literary perspective to bring Demandred's story to a climax there.

Neilbert
11-22-2009, 02:42 PM
I hope Narishma kills him.

Belazamon
11-22-2009, 05:41 PM
If nothing else, I want to go on record as saying I like the name Talmandred.

Davian93
11-22-2009, 09:45 PM
If nothing else, I want to go on record as saying I like the name Talmandred.

Its intuitively obvious that Demandred is Harnan.


Harnanandred!

Belazamon
11-22-2009, 09:59 PM
Its intuitively obvious that Demandred is Harnan.


Harnanandred!
Seriously, I'm having more fun with the name aspect than anything else at this point. :D

I think Aliviandred is still my favorite, though.

Terez
11-22-2009, 10:03 PM
Olverdred.

Belazamon
11-22-2009, 10:05 PM
Olverdred.
Nah, Olver is just a proxy.

It's actually Riselledred.

Spasmodean
11-23-2009, 04:49 AM
Mistress Anandred.

Bonzi77
11-23-2009, 07:50 AM
A friend of mine has a theory that I don't really buy, but is interesting to think about. In the very beginning of the prologue of tGS, we see a group of borderlanders heading north to join an army. We assume they're good guys, but what if Demandred has planted a couple of people to go tell their friends that the battle is coming and they need to head north?

Spasmodean
11-23-2009, 08:45 AM
A friend of mine has a theory that I don't really buy, but is interesting to think about. In the very beginning of the prologue of tGS, we see a group of borderlanders heading north to join an army. We assume they're good guys, but what if Demandred has planted a couple of people to go tell their friends that the battle is coming and they need to head north?


I don't see this as Demadred's style tbh.
My own thoughts on the prologue is that these folks will be the ones that join Lan in Tarwin's Gap.

Yellowbeard
11-23-2009, 09:45 AM
Beladred.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Perhaps Demandred is secretly impersonating the DO?
That would really be an interesting plot twist, wouldn't it?

Yuri33
11-23-2009, 12:29 PM
Demandred = Hu Marwin from the Two Rivers

Hundred

Belazamon
11-23-2009, 12:58 PM
Beladred.
Nope, Bela is far more evil than Demandred. :D

Davian93
11-23-2009, 01:01 PM
Demandred=Cenn Buie


Buieadred!!!

Yuri33
11-23-2009, 01:18 PM
Demandred = Sly Stalone

Judge-dred

kasper11
11-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Forgive a newcomer if this has been discussed, but....

When rereading LOC I came across something I had forgotten...Demandred had a thing for Ilyena. We know that one of Rand's harem is similar in appearance to Ilyena, Elayne. Makes sense to me that Demandred would be somebody close to Elayne, someone in charge of her armies.

Maybe Charlz Guybon? He is handsome (a prereq for someone Demandred would pose as) and currently 2nd in command of Elayne's army.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 02:58 PM
I sort of doubt that he attached himself to Elayne:
Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter’angrealby the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al’Thor was doing here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.
"Let the Lord of Chaos rule," he told the thrones – though he still wished he knew why it had to be so – and opened a gateway to leave Tel’aran’rhiod.He saw her, and did not act particularly impressed.

Bonzi77
11-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Forgive a newcomer if this has been discussed, but....

When rereading LOC I came across something I had forgotten...Demandred had a thing for Ilyena. We know that one of Rand's harem is similar in appearance to Ilyena, Elayne. Makes sense to me that Demandred would be somebody close to Elayne, someone in charge of her armies.

Maybe Charlz Guybon? He is handsome (a prereq for someone Demandred would pose as) and currently 2nd in command of Elayne's army.

That's not bad. He didn't appear until after RJ said that Demandred's alter ego hadn't appeared on stage. But Brandon seemed to imply that we still hadn't seen him so that would be a strike against him, unless Brandon is mistaken. The other problem is that Birgitte has done a fair amount of stalking the forsaken in TAR and would potentially recognize him, unless he was using a disguise.

Weird Harold
11-23-2009, 03:33 PM
Just for grins and because I can:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=2

Matoyak
11-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Nope, Bela is far more evil than Demandred. :DThis.
Also, Taimandred! ~gets stoned to death~ :p

~joins WH's group~

Terez
11-23-2009, 05:00 PM
Just for grins and because I can:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=2
I joined. I have thought for a long time that he probably doesn't have an alter ego; nothing like Taimandred anyway.

Devlin1969
11-23-2009, 05:44 PM
I joined. I have thought for a long time that he probably doesn't have an alter ego; nothing like Taimandred anyway.

Ditto.

Stronginthearm
02-03-2010, 04:16 PM
Demandred killed Mazrim Tiem when the Tiem "escaped" and buried him in a shallow grave and is now impersonating him

Spasmodean
02-03-2010, 07:16 PM
Just for grins and because I can:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=2

I joined. It makes the most sense to me too.

frenchie
02-03-2010, 07:55 PM
I'm in.

halo6819
02-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Forgive a newcomer if this has been discussed, but....

When rereading LOC I came across something I had forgotten...Demandred had a thing for Ilyena. We know that one of Rand's harem is similar in appearance to Ilyena, Elayne. Makes sense to me that Demandred would be somebody close to Elayne, someone in charge of her armies.

Maybe Charlz Guybon? He is handsome (a prereq for someone Demandred would pose as) and currently 2nd in command of Elayne's army.

also, meta gaming a bit, charlz guybon was given his name when some one donated the most money to a charity RJ favored. I doubt RJ would reward someone by making them one of the forsaken...

Spasmodean
02-06-2010, 03:29 PM
also, meta gaming a bit, charlz guybon was given his name when some one donated the most money to a charity RJ favored. I doubt RJ would reward someone by making them one of the forsaken...

That would be an awesome reward!

deathjester
02-11-2010, 12:01 AM
Hi am new here. Read the books from the day they came out. Has been hard waiting for the next volume sometimes. :)

Anyways my theories on Demandred. He is using balefire. We have seen no evidence of balefire on the mainland. Shara is supposed to play a minor roll if ever in the story, per past interviews.

Process of elimination leaves us with the Seanchen mainland as to where he would be using Balefire. He was working with Semirhage and Mesaana since before the war of power. Mesaana is prepping the White Tower for a fall, and working to divide it. A fall from what source? Semirhage has been hidden (until the new book) as a Seanchen servant.

It makes perfect sense to me that Demandred would take control of the Seanchen and lead the return spoken of in Nicolas prophecy. "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants."

The Seanchen currently in Randland are the forerunners not "the return." I do not see Tuon and Mat battling Rand and the Aes Sedai for control of the mainland. If she did fight Rand and the servants/guardians(male and female Aes Sedai)with her current forces she would be destroyed as the male channelers have taken no oaths.

Tuon is a good character but misguided, and their is a prophecy of Rand bowing to the Seanchen throne (Tuon). Why would Rand fight Tuon, only to bow to her after he defeats her current forces? If the return is supporting Tuon, why wouldn't Rand just kill their emperor to stop bloodshed. There would be no bowing either way I think. I think he will bow to her along with the Aes Sedai as an alliance to fight the Demandred led Seanchen "return". Perhaps the Aes Sedai will be the Guardians, and Servants of the new peaceful Empire led by Tuon. Rand respects the Seanchen in all aspects, except their view on channeling. Somehow him and Tuon and the Aes Sedai will make it work. An oath to Tuon and to serve the good of the Empire on the oath rod perhaps.

There will be two climaxes in this series, as Nicola's prophecy points out. The resealing of the bore/or death of the dark one (this can't happen according to reincarnated Ishmael, and if the Dark one dies then why does Demandred continue the fight, well besides total hate for LTT, which may be a good enough reason I guess lol). Then the final battle for Randland between Demandred and a surviving Rand, Aes Sedai, Tuon alliance.

Will Demandred use Shara men/women as damane? Who knows. Whatever he brings to war it is going to be massive, and Seanchen is HUGE. The only possible thing he could do more damage with is a corrupted Black Tower, which I see as the only other option. I could see him having Taim turned to the dark side (13 myrddraal), and using him as a figurehead for the Black Tower, before taking over.

I think the Seanchan thing makes more sense though. Perhaps he is doing both, which would just make him that much more awesome a villian.

Anyways. Cool Site. Long theory. Lol.

Terez
02-11-2010, 02:28 AM
Welcome to Theoryland, jester. :)

There is one small thing that you overlooked....or two small things, really. In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means 'servants of all' and Asha'man means 'guardians of truth' or some such. So this is playing into RJ's theme of a balance between saidar and saidin that has been missing for the last 3500 years.

It is very, very possible that 'the great battle' does not refer to the Last Battle at all. It very specifically does not say 'last battle', and after some consideration, I have come to the conclusion that it most likely does not refer to the Last Battle, but rather to the much-anticipated Battle of Caemlyn, which will be the culmination of the Arthurian parallels. No doubt the Seanchan will be involved.

Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, and its last king was Ishara's grandfather. With the Arthurian twisted family tree theme going on, all of the important players are tied to Andor, and to the legacy of Aldeshar. Just by those that are descended from Ishara: Rand, the Dragon Reborn; Elayne, the current heir of Ishara; Galad, Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks; Gawyn, soon-to-be Warder and husband to the Amyrlin Seat. Saying nothing about Luc, as he's on the wrong side, these family connections are a big part of what will make the north and the east as one (which could give a whole new meaning to Elaida's Foretelling aside from the obvious, that Rand is the key to winning the Last Battle).

Mat also remembers being the general of the army of Aldeshar, the Golden Lions, in the battle where Hawkwing finally defeated them. Perrin MIGHT POSSIBLY be the rebirth of a king of Aldeshar (he has something resembling a past life memory in Tel'aran'rhiod and sees himself wearing a gilded helmet shaped like a golden lion, though Neil insists that Lanfear put that on him). The banner of the High Lady Tuon was two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart, which might possibly be a remembrance of Hawkwing's cruel treatment of Aldeshar after its fall.

So, the Battle of Caemlyn seems to be a good place for the final confrontation between the north/east alliance and the Seanchan, especially considering that Caemlyn is where Mat is going to go when he returns from Ghenjei with Moiraine, and Mat is bound to be tied up in that confrontation. There is a possibility here for 1) Tuon to channel, in desperation of course....to defend Mat maybe? and 2) for Mat to sport raven tattoos, if he's going to. Also, there's the theory that Min's vision of a 'severed hand, not hers' for Elayne is the Band of the Red Hand. There is some foreshadowing of this on the trip to Ebou Dar, when Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, and she inspects his troops daily, giving Mat orders to do things that she knows he will do anyway. We know that Mat will probably leave the Band in Caemlyn, and it's assumed that Elayne will have need of them while he is at Ghenjei.

Finally, there is the Black Tower, which just happens to be hanging out not far from Caemlyn. We know there will be a confrontation there, and that during this confrontation, Rand will at the very least appear to die, and that Logain will step up in his place to lead the Asha'man. Or, we might as well know that, from Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over something like a paper puppet of Rand's dead body, to mount a black stone that just happens to sound a lot like Taim's addressing stone (which MIGHT POSSIBLY be made of Shayol Ghul rock!), and of course we know about Logain's glory from Min.

Add all this to the fact that, at the Battle of Camlann, Arthur fought Mordred, who has parallels in Moridin, Mordeth, and Demandred....it could get very interesting indeed! :D

It has been theorized before that Demandred has been using a lot of balefire, and one might argue that the deterioration of reality has something to do with that. And just because RJ said we won't see much of Shara doesn't mean that Demandred hasn't been using balefire there. There are conflicting reports from RJ on this....some reporters say he confirmed that Demandred was using lots of balefire to destroy the Pattern, and some say that RJ said that was not true. Brandon said that the Dark One was the cause of the degeneration of reality, but that might be an Aes Sedai way of saying that he ordered the Forsaken (like Demandred) to do it. However, it's entirely possible that it really is the Dark One more or less directly touching the Pattern, and that Demandred stopped using balefire so much when he found out he wasn't going to get named Nae'blis. Hard to say, really.

In any case, Demandred has been heavily involved with the Black Tower probably since its inception, and Moridin has also been involved, since his return. I have a feeling that the confrontation between Moridin and Rand will actually happen during the Black Tower mess, and that Rand will somehow shed his blood on Shayol Ghul rock in the process (might involved Traveling somewhere, but it's not as if he and Ishamael didn't do that before), and that Min's vision of Rand and Moridin seeming to merge, and one of them dying, will happen then. Rand's body is a paper puppet because even though he is dead, he can be brought back (via Nynaeve ripping him out). No one will realize it, though...just a few people anyway....so everyone will think that their only hope of winning the Last Battle is lost. And of course, like good and noble Lightfriends, they will fight anyway. Likely, by the time they get around to blowing the Horn, Nynaeve will have done her thing, and Rand won't show up with the other Heroes, and that's when everyone will realize he's still alive.

As to Taim having been turned....it's not really necessary, but it's possible. We know he's a Darkfriend, but for all we know he has been one all along; certain things certainly seem to point to it.

In any case, I think you might have gotten it backwards on the great battle/world not done with battle. Just my opinion, but I am starting to think I might known what I'm talking about, lol.

FellKnight
02-11-2010, 02:32 AM
The Seanchen currently in Randland are the forerunners not "the return."

Yes, they are the return. As of Book 9 and "What a Veil Hides", Tuon led "The Corenne", which translates as "The Return".

High Lord Turak and then High Lady Suroth were commanders of "Hailene" or "Those who come before", aka "The Forerunners"


I do not see Tuon and Mat battling Rand and the Aes Sedai for control of the mainland. If she did fight Rand and the servants/guardians(male and female Aes Sedai)with her current forces she would be destroyed as the male channelers have taken no oaths.

Perhaps at one point, but now that the Seanchan have Travelling...

Perhaps the Aes Sedai will be the Guardians, and Servants of the new peaceful Empire led by Tuon.


I can't see the cluebat being given any harder than when we are tol repeatedly about the name Aes Sedai meaning "Servants of All", and Asha'man meaning "Guardians". Those are clearly the two groups of whom the prophecy speaks.

Welcome, though.

Fell

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2010, 04:34 AM
Yes, they are the return. As of Book 9 and "What a Veil Hides", Tuon led "The Corenne", which translates as "The Return".I think that a better, more conclusive, statement can be found here:
Suroth hissed, gripping her pleated blue skirts in her fists before she could stop her hands. She would not let the man make her show emotion! “You overstep yourself, Galgan,” she said coldly. “I command the Forerunners. For the time being, I command the Return. You will sign no orders without my approval.”
“You commanded the Forerunners, who have been subsumed into the Return,” he replied calmly, and Suroth tasted bitterness. The news from the Empire had emboldened him. With the Empress dead, Gal-gan intended to make himself the first Emperor in nine hundred years. It seemed he would have to die by tonight. “As for you commanding the Return-” He cut off at the sound of heavy boots from the corridor.

Casabamelon
02-11-2010, 07:25 AM
<SNIP>



Damn you, Terez. My heart started racing as I imagined everything as I read your post. Then I remembered we're not going to get a book this year.

First the mirror, now this... you're shaving years off my life.
________
GANG BANG PARTY (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/601/party/videos/1)

Terez
02-11-2010, 07:56 AM
hahaha, sorry!

deathjester
02-11-2010, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the welcome Terez, and you make many good points.

The balefire thing, I agree on. I should have phrased that better. It could be Shara, or anywhere besides the mainland for that matter. I have also thought that it may be behind the reason for the unraveling of the pattern (ghosts, people from other ages being seen). Then you have a camp that says the Dragon and the land are one, like Arthur, which is the reason for the pattern going loco, and maybe Demanded hasn't used Balefire yet. Count me in the former camp.

I agree that Tuon may channel at one point as she trained damane. Mat's biggest contribution will be modern warfare, cannons. I don't see him doing that against his wife, or for her against his own people. I don't think they will be ready in time for the battle against the dark one, anyways.

We know that before Book 6 Demandred probably already had a major plan under way. When he meets the Dark one at the start of book 6, he says something like Rand is split in too many directions and says "I..", and it cut off by the Dark One. So he is somehwere, doing something. What we do know is he is a military genius, and like the other Forsaken he is building an army somewhere, and working on something big.

It isn't until the start of book 6, that he is derailed from whatever he is going to do by the Dark One. The Dark One asks him to use balefire in his name. He may or may not be named Naeblis at this time (which could be a lie by the Dark One anyways). At the end of Book 6, he asks the Dark One if he has done well. So whatever the assignment was, he has done it, or was working on it in book 6.

Whether his assignment was destroying the pattern by leveling cities in Shara, or setting up Taim to work with Rand, or both, we don't know. We do know that this is the time that Taim introduces himself to Rand.

Now that the Dark One's assingment is done, and Ishmael is reincarnated I believe Demandred goes back to his original plan with Messana and Semirhage, working on the Seanchen Empire. The empress dies, and you have the largest known standing military force in the world just sitting there. It isn't like they are exactly far away. There are people from Falme that have already returned to the Seanchen Mainland by book 5. I don't see how Demandred can pass that up, especially since he has worked with Semirhage since the war of power, and surely knows about it.

If I remember right before the last battle Rand must kneel to the Crystal throne. Is he doing to do this knowing that war is on the other side of victory against the Dark One, and that is a temporary alliance at best? Maybe. Or does he do it to ally himself with Tuon against the main Seanchen military force that we have yet to see, because he sees good leadership qualities in her.

It is fun to theorize regardless. Series has been a huge part of my life, since the day I walked into a bookstore and saw the cover for Wheel of Time when I was a kid. I have got my sisters to read it and many friends. Many of those friends had never read a "fantasy book" in their life. My sister can now say "Twilight Sucks". lol.

However it ends, I am sure it will be awesome and well thought out. Robert Jordan always seemed to think of everything. Will Ishmael turn to the light? Is Logain going to take over in the last battle, or is it rather just the male Aes Sedai that he is going to take over.

At this point we aren't certain of a whole lot, except that Moraine should be back, and Galad and Berlain will hook up lol. I think The Dark One has been setting up a hammer and an anvil. The Seanchan to the South led be Demandred as the hammer, and a Anvil to the North led by Ishmael, with a corrupted Black tower seems almost too much for the light to overcome to me. Ishmael would have to turn to the light I think, for them to have a chance. If Ishmael doesn't turn, then the forces of good will be almost completely wiped out, and would not be able to fight Tuon and a full return of the Seanchen anyways, unless the male channelers pull a Dumai's well, and that is not something I think Rand is prepared to do. When defeating the Dark one was his goal, anything went. After he is deafeated? Not so much.

RAFO I guess. Either way it looks as if the Seanchen vs the mainland is the last climax in this book. Is Tuon on the side of Rand or against him. I would like to think she is with them. :)

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2010, 11:30 AM
If I remember right before the last battle Rand must kneel to the Crystal throne.That is almost certainly a distortion in the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon. Generally this is ascribed to Ishamael, who in that way made sure that the Seanchan and Rand won't be able to reach agreement.

Ishara
02-11-2010, 08:38 PM
p.s. I like the new guy. :)

And Gonzo, we know that there's a distortion. It's not likely. Didn't BS say something somewhere on the tour that led to a sneaky suspicion that it may not be as distorted as we think though?

Terez
02-11-2010, 08:47 PM
Well, some would probably argue that he's just trying to keep us from knowing for sure which prophecies are corrupted. Important thing is, Tuon thinks Rand has to kneel to her for them to have a chance of winning. That will have to be dealt with regardless of whether or not the prophecy is true.

Daekyras
02-14-2010, 02:01 PM
Welcome to Theoryland, jester. :)

There is one small thing that you overlooked....or two small things, really. In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means 'servants of all' and Asha'man means 'guardians of truth' or some such. So this is playing into RJ's theme of a balance between saidar and saidin that has been missing for the last 3500 years.

It is very, very possible that 'the great battle' does not refer to the Last Battle at all. It very specifically does not say 'last battle', and after some consideration, I have come to the conclusion that it most likely does not refer to the Last Battle, but rather to the much-anticipated Battle of Caemlyn, which will be the culmination of the Arthurian parallels. No doubt the Seanchan will be involved.

Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, and its last king was Ishara's grandfather. With the Arthurian twisted family tree theme going on, all of the important players are tied to Andor, and to the legacy of Aldeshar. Just by those that are descended from Ishara: Rand, the Dragon Reborn; Elayne, the current heir of Ishara; Galad, Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks; Gawyn, soon-to-be Warder and husband to the Amyrlin Seat. Saying nothing about Luc, as he's on the wrong side, these family connections are a big part of what will make the north and the east as one (which could give a whole new meaning to Elaida's Foretelling aside from the obvious, that Rand is the key to winning the Last Battle).

Mat also remembers being the general of the army of Aldeshar, the Golden Lions, in the battle where Hawkwing finally defeated them. Perrin MIGHT POSSIBLY be the rebirth of a king of Aldeshar (he has something resembling a past life memory in Tel'aran'rhiod and sees himself wearing a gilded helmet shaped like a golden lion, though Neil insists that Lanfear put that on him). The banner of the High Lady Tuon was two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart, which might possibly be a remembrance of Hawkwing's cruel treatment of Aldeshar after its fall.

So, the Battle of Caemlyn seems to be a good place for the final confrontation between the north/east alliance and the Seanchan, especially considering that Caemlyn is where Mat is going to go when he returns from Ghenjei with Moiraine, and Mat is bound to be tied up in that confrontation. There is a possibility here for 1) Tuon to channel, in desperation of course....to defend Mat maybe? and 2) for Mat to sport raven tattoos, if he's going to. Also, there's the theory that Min's vision of a 'severed hand, not hers' for Elayne is the Band of the Red Hand. There is some foreshadowing of this on the trip to Ebou Dar, when Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, and she inspects his troops daily, giving Mat orders to do things that she knows he will do anyway. We know that Mat will probably leave the Band in Caemlyn, and it's assumed that Elayne will have need of them while he is at Ghenjei.

Finally, there is the Black Tower, which just happens to be hanging out not far from Caemlyn. We know there will be a confrontation there, and that during this confrontation, Rand will at the very least appear to die, and that Logain will step up in his place to lead the Asha'man. Or, we might as well know that, from Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over something like a paper puppet of Rand's dead body, to mount a black stone that just happens to sound a lot like Taim's addressing stone (which MIGHT POSSIBLY be made of Shayol Ghul rock!), and of course we know about Logain's glory from Min.

Add all this to the fact that, at the Battle of Camlann, Arthur fought Mordred, who has parallels in Moridin, Mordeth, and Demandred....it could get very interesting indeed! :D

It has been theorized before that Demandred has been using a lot of balefire, and one might argue that the deterioration of reality has something to do with that. And just because RJ said we won't see much of Shara doesn't mean that Demandred hasn't been using balefire there. There are conflicting reports from RJ on this....some reporters say he confirmed that Demandred was using lots of balefire to destroy the Pattern, and some say that RJ said that was not true. Brandon said that the Dark One was the cause of the degeneration of reality, but that might be an Aes Sedai way of saying that he ordered the Forsaken (like Demandred) to do it. However, it's entirely possible that it really is the Dark One more or less directly touching the Pattern, and that Demandred stopped using balefire so much when he found out he wasn't going to get named Nae'blis. Hard to say, really.

In any case, Demandred has been heavily involved with the Black Tower probably since its inception, and Moridin has also been involved, since his return. I have a feeling that the confrontation between Moridin and Rand will actually happen during the Black Tower mess, and that Rand will somehow shed his blood on Shayol Ghul rock in the process (might involved Traveling somewhere, but it's not as if he and Ishamael didn't do that before), and that Min's vision of Rand and Moridin seeming to merge, and one of them dying, will happen then. Rand's body is a paper puppet because even though he is dead, he can be brought back (via Nynaeve ripping him out). No one will realize it, though...just a few people anyway....so everyone will think that their only hope of winning the Last Battle is lost. And of course, like good and noble Lightfriends, they will fight anyway. Likely, by the time they get around to blowing the Horn, Nynaeve will have done her thing, and Rand won't show up with the other Heroes, and that's when everyone will realize he's still alive.

As to Taim having been turned....it's not really necessary, but it's possible. We know he's a Darkfriend, but for all we know he has been one all along; certain things certainly seem to point to it.

In any case, I think you might have gotten it backwards on the great battle/world not done with battle. Just my opinion, but I am starting to think I might known what I'm talking about, lol.

Terez, this is why I love you!

Terez
02-14-2010, 06:01 PM
lol, pleasure to serve.