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GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 11:50 AM
First and foremost: Verin. Naturally, of course.
Wonder what she's gonna do in the next book, to keep up her part as inscrutable mystery lady.

Second, would Egwene have any plans to deal with the unaligned Black Ajah members?
About one third of the AS was in the Tower, one third was with the rebels, but that leaves a couple of hundred others who are running around free. If the proportions are the same, that means a few score of BA on the lose, apart from those that ran away from the WT.

Third, a bit more specifically: would Egwene take the trouble of warning Rand that some of his loyal servants may be loyal, but not to him?

Fourth, it just so happens that I had been a bit wrong about Verin and the Horn. On the other hand, she did seek out Mat as I had predicted. On the gripping hand, perhaps my "she hid the Horn, the letter tells where" idea is actually correct.

Fifth, I happened to be correct with my doubts about the idea that Cadsuane was going to teach laughter and tears. Of course, I was wrong in thinking that Moiraine would do this, but you can't have everything.
This does leave Cadsuane with the problem of finding a new goal rather rapidly.

Sixth, it seems as though Perrin actually was gullible enough to have a meeting with Galad. I find that a bit disappointing, though I have to admit that I had expected it.
Wonder whether or we're going to see that actual meeting, and the negotiations that went on before it.

Seventh, who killed Asmodean, and why?
It seems now a bit less likely that it was Graendal, though she is still a strong contender (quite a feat, considering her current handicap).

Edited to add:
Is Mat under a curse involving AS and letters? If so, who cursed him thusly?

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2009, 11:52 AM
Thanks to whomever moved this. I had aimed a bit wrong, I think.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 11:53 AM
First and foremost: Verin. Naturally, of course.
Wonder what she's gonna do in the next book, to keep up her part as inscrutable mystery lady.
Mold?

Or, more mysteriously... not mold?

Davian93
11-04-2009, 12:23 PM
Mold?

Or, more mysteriously... not mold?

If she doesnt mold, she'll likely be canonized.


I'm willing to bet that Egwene will have "more important" things to do than tell Rand that some of the Aes Sedai that he Compelled (in her mind) are Black Ajah. She'll probably be too busy picking a new Mistress of Novices and redecorating the Amyrlin's office to care about that.

Have I mentioned I still don't care for Egwene?

Brita
11-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Have I mentioned I still don't care for Egwene?

I hope you can feel the disapproval radiating through the bond, you pig headed warder, you!

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I think Egwene should send an embassy to Rand that doesn't have orders to kidnap him. And that embassy should apologize to him. And invite him to apologize to Egwene.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 01:11 PM
I think Egwene should send an embassy to Rand that doesn't have orders to kidnap him. And that embassy should apologize to him. And invite him to apologize to Egwene.

She should, but she won't. Remember, she's still upset that Rand's Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai, and she places the blame for that squarely at Rand's feet. She's one of those fool Aes Sedai who think Rand is a child that needs to be led around by the nose.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 01:15 PM
She should, but she won't. Remember, she's still upset that Rand's Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai, and she places the blame for that squarely at Rand's feet. She's one of those fool Aes Sedai who think Rand is a child that needs to be led around by the nose.

Exactly, because Egwene in her vast 18-19 years of life has far more experience and knowledge than the guy that has all the knowledge of all his past lives in his head now...and who is the greatest/most powerful channeler of 2 Ages. She's so bloody annoying.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 01:17 PM
Exactly, because Egwene in her vast 18-19 years of life has far more experience and knowledge than the guy that has all the knowledge of all his past lives in his head now...and who is the greatest/most powerful channeler of 2 Ages. She's so bloody annoying.

She doesn't know that, though. All she knows is that it's Rand, that wool-headed sheepherder from back home, who is now the Dragon Reborn. She doesn't know he's got the memories, she doesn't know his sanity is in question, and she doesn't know anything that's happened to him in the last few months. She's been locked up in Salidar and the White Tower for so long, she doesn't know what's going on out in the rest of the world.

From her perspective, it's a perfectly rational conclusion to reach. It's the wrong conclusion, but it's a perfectly logical one to make, given the information she has at her disposal.

WinespringBrother
11-04-2009, 01:18 PM
She should, but she won't. Remember, she's still upset that Rand's Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai, and she places the blame for that squarely at Rand's feet. She's one of those fool Aes Sedai who think Rand is a child that needs to be led around by the nose.

She isn't such a fool as many make her out to be. And her honor may obligate her to take corrective steps regarding the White Tower's previous treatment of Rand. She has shown she can swallow hers and the Tower's pride for the greater good, and what can be greater than this?

Davian93
11-04-2009, 01:22 PM
From her perspective, it's a perfectly rational conclusion to reach. It's the wrong conclusion, but it's a perfectly logical one to make, given the information she has at her disposal

If only she had some sort of way to get more information before jumping to stupid conclusions. If only she had been at his side for most of his rise to power or had some sort of way to talk to people close to him. Or even use the WT Eyes and Ears to gather real intel about him.

Instead she bases all her opinions of him off of her memories of him as a teenage sheepherder in the Two Rivers and the belief that he has gone mad due to the Taint.

Brita
11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
Exactly, because Egwene in her vast 18-19 years of life has far more experience and knowledge than the guy that has all the knowledge of all his past lives in his head now...and who is the greatest/most powerful channeler of 2 Ages. She's so bloody annoying.

~~sigh~~

I really do wish she would give Rand a little more respect. Yes, even in this book she still thinks like Caddy and Nyneave- that Rand is just a hammer and they are the master carpenters. She is growing a lot though, and I hope, hope, hope she gets over this hang up. And not in a subtle way, but a "Oh my God, I've been a complete bitch about this!" way.

All this being said, she is still a great character, with a lot of redeeming qualities, and does deserve a little respect herself.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 01:25 PM
~~sigh~~

All this being said, she is still a great character, with a lot of redeeming qualities, and does deserve a little respect herself.

I agree with that completely. I just think she has a HUGE blindspot when it comes to Rand and she placed the White Tower above the Dragon and winning the Last Battle. Maybe she'll figure that out now that she ousted Elaida.

JSUCamel
11-04-2009, 01:36 PM
She isn't such a fool as many make her out to be. And her honor may obligate her to take corrective steps regarding the White Tower's previous treatment of Rand. She has shown she can swallow hers and the Tower's pride for the greater good, and what can be greater than this?

The short answer is that she honestly thinks that the Aes Sedai know better than Rand does. She may apologize for Elaida's orders, but it's unlikely she'll back down on her anger about Aes Sedai being bonded by Asha'man, and I doubt she'll be easily swayed into seeing Rand as an equal (or superior).

Mort
11-04-2009, 02:50 PM
It has been stated in a vision/prophecy somewhere that Rand is supposted to meet with the Amyrlin and know her anger...

I've toyed with the idea that Rand will meet with Egwene and the Hall and when they don't believe him or trust him, then he'll shock them by taking the three oaths. At least the one about not lying, just to make them trust him more.

It's probably not gonna happen but it could make a great scene.

Also, Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand something, teach all the Asha'man something. We've all been thinking that was laughter and tears. But when is she in that case gonna start teaching the Asha'man that? Or will this in some way happen through Rand now?

Seems to me Cadsuane still has something to teach, and it seems less and less so that it was laughter and tears.

Brita
11-04-2009, 02:57 PM
Also, Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand something, teach all the Asha'man something. We've all been thinking that was laughter and tears. But when is she in that case gonna start teaching the Asha'man that? Or will this in some way happen through Rand now?

Seems to me Cadsuane still has something to teach, and it seems less and less so that it was laughter and tears.

Maybe she just needs to teach him how to handle self-important old bitties with over-inflated sense of their own importance.

For me, Cadsuane is tied with Gawyn as the most annoying character in the series. With all her so-called wisdom, you would think she would know better than to start every sentence with some version of "Foolish boy!" when she is trying to get her point across.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:01 PM
I've toyed with the idea that Rand will meet with Egwene and the Hall and when they don't believe him or trust him, then he'll shock them by taking the three oaths. At least the one about not lying, just to make them trust him more.
Binders don't work on men. ;)

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 03:10 PM
Fourth, it just so happens that I had been a bit wrong about Verin and the Horn. On the other hand, she did seek out Mat as I had predicted. On the gripping hand, perhaps my "she hid the Horn, the letter tells where" idea is actually correct.

Plus now that Traveling is en vogue, Egwene is going to be moving all that stuff, right? Someone will undoubtedly find the Horn and think about using it.

Fifth, I happened to be correct with my doubts about the idea that Cadsuane was going to teach laughter and tears. Of course, I was wrong in thinking that Moiraine would do this, but you can't have everything.
Well, she did bring Tam in to talk to Rand, and that spurred him on to do his integration, laughing etc. thing up on the mount.

Weird Harold
11-04-2009, 03:12 PM
Binders don't work on men. ;)
At least serial number 3 and serial number 111 don't work on men and those seem to be the only ones available.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:17 PM
At least serial number 3 and serial number 111 don't work on men and those seem to be the only ones available.
It appears to be all binders, actually. "Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man - There is a thing called a binding chair. Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."
No mention of any other, different "Oath Rods" that would do the trick.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2009, 03:23 PM
Some sort of binding works on EVERYONE, even if it is not clearly stated to be a rod or a chair

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Despite the overall harmonious balance within society, crime, including violent crimes and crimes of passion, was not unknown. Society did not believe in any type of restraint unless absolutely necessary. When the perpetrators of violent acts were caught, they were not sent to prison. Rather, they were constrained, in some manner not fully understood, against repeat offenses. This binding made it impossible for the criminal to repeat his crime. As a result, criminal acts of any kind were very rare.

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:28 PM
Some sort of binding works on EVERYONE, even if it is not clearly stated to be a rod or a chair
This is true. I was simply pointing out the hole in Mort's theory above - Rand couldn't take the Three Oaths simply by visiting Egwene at the White Tower.

Enigma
11-04-2009, 03:31 PM
If Rand has downloaded most of LTT's memories and attitudes he would see taking the oats as binding himself as a criminal. I think we would have Rand's common sense saying "don't take the oaths" and LTT's "I'm no criminal, how date they even suggest it" work against any oath taking.

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 03:42 PM
Some sort of binding works on EVERYONE, even if it is not clearly stated to be a rod or a chair

We more or less have to Ishy's word for it, but here's his explaination about binders.

To her surprise, Caddar was also observant. "All you need do is have your Aes Sedai"—walking easily beside her on his long legs, he grinned suddenly, toothily, at Rhiale and Therava—"or any woman who can channel hold the rod and speak whatever promises you wish while someone channels a little Spirit into the number. The marks on the end of the rod?" he added, raising his eyebrows insultingly. "You can use it to release her, too, but that is more painful. Or so I understand."

Sevanna's fingers touched the rod lightly. More glass than ivory, and very cool. "It only works on women?" She ducked into the tent ahead of him. The Wise Ones and the leaders of the warrior societies were gone, but the dozen treekiller gai'shain remained, kneeling patiently to one side. No one person had ever kept a dozen gai'shain before, and she possessed more. There would have to be a new name for them, though, since they would never put off the white.

"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The man's tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have al'Thor before I give you what will control him."

...

"Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man—There is a thing called a binding chair. binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."

Belazamon
11-04-2009, 03:45 PM
We more or less have to Ishy's word for it, but here's his explaination about binders.
You do mean Sammy, right?

ShadowbaneX
11-04-2009, 03:46 PM
it's been a while, I might get some minor things wrong.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 04:41 PM
Maybe she just needs to teach him how to handle self-important old bitties with over-inflated sense of their own importance.

For me, Cadsuane is tied with Gawyn as the most annoying character in the series. With all her so-called wisdom, you would think she would know better than to start every sentence with some version of "Foolish boy!" when she is trying to get her point across.

So I'm not the only one that thinks Gawyn is astonishingly annoying and stupid?

1Powerslave
11-04-2009, 05:46 PM
So I'm not the only one that thinks Gawyn is astonishingly annoying and stupid?
Hey sign me up as well. Gawyn is annoying, Cadsuane is very annoying, Egwene is uber annoying, most of the time. I too noticed that with Egwene being so wise now, she still thinks she needs to guide Rand.

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2009, 05:59 PM
Hey sign me up as well. Gawyn is annoying, Cadsuane is very annoying, Egwene is uber annoying, most of the time. I too noticed that with Egwene being so wise now, she still thinks she needs to guide Rand.
Better to guide him than to kill him. Gawyn can't get it through his thick skull, even with Bryne and Elayne telling him different.

I wonder what Egwene will think of his plans to kill Rand.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 06:00 PM
Better to guide him than to kill him. Gawyn can't get it through his thick skull, even with Bryne and Elayne telling him different.

I wonder what Egwene will think of his plans to kill Rand.

She probably put it out of her mind. I mean she has to figure out how Egwene the woman feels and put that with how Egwene the Amyrlin feels, blah blah blah.

1Powerslave
11-04-2009, 06:02 PM
Better to guide him than to kill him. Gawyn can't get it through his thick skull, even with Bryne and Elayne telling him different.

I wonder what Egwene will think of his plans to kill Rand.Hehe, true.

I'm sure Egwene will guide him to do what's right.

nameless
11-04-2009, 06:10 PM
Better to guide him than to kill him. Gawyn can't get it through his thick skull, even with Bryne and Elayne telling him different.

I wonder what Egwene will think of his plans to kill Rand.

Of all the characters based on Arthurian myths, Gawyn and Galad bear the strongest resemblance to their source material. Sir Galahad was an unbearably wholesome knight whose only real purpose was to serve as an allegory for good Christian behavior, while Sir Gawain, the Knight of the Lion, grew from humble beginnings to become an insufferably brash and vindictive jackass. Given the parallels as well as the comparison between Gawyn's swordsmanship and Lan's in tGS it seems increasingly likely that Gawyn will end up trying to take on Lan, only to get his ass handed to him.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 06:12 PM
Of all the characters based on Arthurian myths, Gawyn and Galad bear the strongest resemblance to their source material. Sir Galahad was an unbearably wholesome knight whose only real purpose was to serve as an allegory for good Christian behavior, while Sir Gawain, the Knight of the Lion, grew from humble beginnings to become an insufferably brash and vindictive jackass. Given the parallels as well as the comparison between Gawyn's swordsmanship and Lan's in tGS it seems increasingly likely that Gawyn will end up trying to take on Lan, only to get his ass handed to him.

I doubt any of the blademasters would be able to defeat Lan.

Did anyone else notice that it seemed like everyone was suddenly a blademaster in this book? (Sleete, Bryne, Chubain, etc) There were more that I simply don't recall as well.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:28 PM
Ituralde and Turan.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Ituralde and Turan.

Thanks. I knew there were others. Did it seem odd to anyone else that suddenly everyone and their brother was a blademaster? Why would Bryne have been so worried about Rand in tEotW if he was a Blademaster himself?

Just seemed odd to me.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:33 PM
He wasn't worried about Rand - he was just letting everyone know to be on guard.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 06:35 PM
He wasn't worried about Rand - he was just letting everyone know to be on guard.

You're right. I remembered it wrong. It was Gawyn that was worried, not Bryne. I haven't read tEotW in a couple years.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 40 - The Web Tightens
Those last few words acted on the chamber as if she had announced the Dark One. Leather and metal creaked behind Rand, boots scuffling on the marble tiles. From the corner of his eye he could see Tallanvor and another of the guardsmen backing away from him to gain room, hands on their swords, prepared to draw and, from their faces, prepared to die. In two quick strides Gareth Bryne was at the front of the dais, between Rand and the Queen. Even Gawyn put himself in front of Elayne, a worried look on his face and a hand on his dagger. Elayne herself looked at him as if she were seeing him for the first time. Morgase did not change expression, but her hands tightened on the gilded arms of her throne.

reTaardad
11-04-2009, 07:17 PM
Fourth, it just so happens that I had been a bit wrong about Verin and the Horn. On the other hand, she did seek out Mat as I had predicted. On the gripping hand, perhaps my "she hid the Horn, the letter tells where" idea is actually correct.
So that's what's in Mat's note! I was racking my brain trying to remember any connection that Mat had with Verin, but was coming up with nothing. Makes total sense. And it matches up with the demand that he not open it if she were to return, since I doubt she'd want to relinquish her hiding spot for the Horn.

Kind of makes you realize Verin's loyalty that she didn't give the Horn to the Shadow. Heh. :cool:

Terez
11-04-2009, 09:27 PM
Well, she had a bag full of notes, you know. I doubt the Horn was the only thing she mentioned in Mat's note - likely she had information on Darkfriends that were with him, etc.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 04:37 AM
It has been stated in a vision/prophecy somewhere that Rand is supposted to meet with the Amyrlin and know her anger...That one is gonna be a great scene. The Amyrlin will be calling him all sorts of names, blaming him for everything that's been going wrong ever since she first met him. Then she'll be told "Suffa, apologize to the Lord Dragon."

Davian93
11-05-2009, 06:27 AM
That one is gonna be a great scene. The Amyrlin will be calling him all sorts of names, blaming him for everything that's been going wrong ever since she first met him. Then she'll be told "Suffa, apologize to the Lord Dragon."

LOL...exactly.

Lord Bloodpath
11-05-2009, 02:40 PM
unless I'm being dense and missing your joke, I think that Rand will know Egwene's anger, not Suffa's. Suffa is not now (nor was she ever IMO) Amyrlin. I saw that one coming as soon as she said it....

And thinking about Suffa and her Talent, is Andor itself going to be central to the defense of the world, or is it just because all the biggest heroes of the Light are from there?

It would be interesting if Mat actually did burn the note and then some Hunter for the Horn really did need to find it and then Mat needed to retrieve the Horn from Illian. But I wanna read the note and I know Mat's too curious so that will not be happening.

After the Finns, will Mat hook up more securely with Fortune, er I mean Fortuona or go off in some other direction I'm not seeing now?

So aside from making peace with the Seanchan and setting up the Black Tower (and thereby being accountable for all the evil they have and soon will do), what else do we think Egwene is going to spew bile at Rand for?

I really hope ToM backs up a little and gives us more Perrin. Or maybe I don't. Flashback can be acceptable. But Perrin meeting peaceably with Whitecloaks? I feel oogly now.....

nameless
11-05-2009, 02:51 PM
The "royal house of Andor" fortelling is primarily an example of dramatic irony. Mordrellan was still queen at the time, so it likely referred to her daughter Tigraine giving birth to the Dragon Reborn. Elaida's hubris wouldn't allow her to accept an interpretation that hinted at events beyond her control, so she forgot about Tigraine and instead attached herself to house Trakand, never mind that it was the wrong Royal House.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 02:54 PM
The "royal house of Andor" fortelling is primarily an example of dramatic irony. Mordrellan was still queen at the time, so it likely referred to her daughter Tigraine giving birth to the Dragon Reborn. Elaida's hubris wouldn't allow her to accept an interpretation that hinted at events beyond her control, so she forgot about Tigraine and instead attached herself to house Trakand, never mind that it was the wrong Royal House.

I've always thought this as well. However, Elayne IS a powerful Aes Sedai and main character in her own right, so there's a chance that it still refers to House Trakand.

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 03:51 PM
I've always thought this as well. However, Elayne IS a powerful Aes Sedai and main character in her own right, so there's a chance that it still refers to House Trakand.
why not both? Rand's critical to the final battle, without him there's nothing, but Elayne could also play a serious part. Mostly though I just want Elaida be to wrong in as many things as humanly possible, so I'd go for Rand for that Foretelling.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 04:09 PM
why not both? Rand's critical to the final battle, without him there's nothing, but Elayne could also play a serious part. Mostly though I just want Elaida be to wrong in as many things as humanly possible, so I'd go for Rand for that Foretelling.

LOL, I agree completely! lol

Uno
11-05-2009, 04:19 PM
LOL, I agree completely! lol

Quite, quite. At least two lines of the royal house of Andor have a role to play. Trakand through Elayne (and maybe even Morgase, who did, after all, play a role in bringing about Rhavin's demise) and Mantear through Rand, and possibly also Galad, the Lord Captain Commander. Elaida was perhaps not completely wrong, she just didn't grasp the full significance of her vision.

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Elaida was perhaps not completely wrong, she just didn't grasp the full significance of her vision.

C'mon, Uno. Don't burst our bubble! If she's not wrong it's not satisfying! :P

Uno
11-05-2009, 04:35 PM
C'mon, Uno. Don't burst our bubble! If she's not wrong it's not satisfying! :P

Bubble, you say...as in "bubble of evil"? Darkfriend!

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Alright chaps, figure i'll post some scattered thoughts in here.

Egwene is a Goddess, how anyone can still dislike her is beyond me.

I thought Mat was wrong. His pieces just didn't sit right with me. The language seemed...well, wrong.

The Tam-Rand meeting terrified me. I definitely thought Rand was going to kill him. Tam in a temper is fucking cool though. Cadsuane is very annoying.

I didn't like that Nynaeve viewing (by Min) one bit, though I doubt it's Lan. I feared it might be Min herself but that clashes with the accepted interpretations of previous viewings. Nynaeve is still wonderful.

I'm not sure how Elayne can be worked back into the story. Perhaps in conjunction with whatever Egwene does.

Did Rand try to Compell Tuon or was it just ta'veren-ness?

Verin was heartbreaking, though I had never particularly liked her.

Have we done a count on how often Moiraine was mentioned? Seemed like every second page. Such teasing cannot be forgiven, get her back already :mad: Her and Nynaeve for the Callandor link?

Not much to say about Perrin. I dislike regression and fucking handwringing so he might want to sort that out. Pity no Galad scene. Faile, glorious as always.

Really enjoyed Siuan and Gareth's bits. I've a tender heart. Also liked Aviendha's parts.

No idea why the TAR ter'angreal are so important.

No Black Tower or Lan sadly. I expect we'll see little of Egwene in the next book as her plot curve ended similarly to Elayne's in KOD.

I expect a lot of Mat. Not sure how Loial will reappear. Thought the Borderlanders would be sorted, they're acting like twats. Don't know if even Demandred (should he be there) could be manipulating them to such a degree.

Was surprised the truce didn't occur with the Seanchan. Not sure what happens there. Doesn't look like Mat will be seeing ForTuona anytime soon.

Overall I must say I thought the book was bloody brilliant, everything I had hoped for, and more. The lack of Tower of Ghenji the only slight let down. My feverish anticipation must wait.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm not sure how Elayne can be worked back into the story. Perhaps in conjunction with whatever Egwene does.In the next book, she'll have tea with her worthy subject, the First Prince of the Ravens.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 05:07 PM
In the next book, she'll have tea with her worthy subject, the First Prince of the Ravens.

I'm a moron. That's very likely

JSUCamel
11-05-2009, 05:12 PM
Also liked Aviendha's parts.

Who don't? :D

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 05:25 PM
Who don't? :D

I knew somebody was going to pick up on that bit!

Lady bits http://i9.tinypic.com/4pf3t4w.jpg

ShadowbaneX
11-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Alright chaps, figure i'll post some scattered thoughts in here.
That's fine, if you searched through my head you'd find some pretty horrible things...oh, and they're scattered too. Even this reply is full of holes.

Egwene is a Goddess, how anyone can still dislike her is beyond me.
Religion is a tricky subject with some people. They'll dislike her merely because she is a goddess.

I thought Mat was wrong. His pieces just didn't sit right with me. The language seemed...well, wrong.
I rather liked it. He was obviously used as comedic relief, but it still worked. To put it another way, Mat's been forced to be far more serious in the most of the series then his character indicated at the start. Now that he's finally in a good place, ie married, he's starting to have some more fun.

I'm not sure how Elayne can be worked back into the story. Perhaps in conjunction with whatever Egwene does.
Mat's going to be in Caemlyn, Perrin will likely head there with Galad and Morgase as well. That's plenty right there.

Did Rand try to Compell Tuon or was it just ta'veren-ness?
Ta'veren

No idea why the TAR ter'angreal are so important.
Probably to stop Egwene from passing information to the Rebels.

Was surprised the truce didn't occur with the Seanchan. Not sure what happens there. Doesn't look like Mat will be seeing ForTuona anytime soon.
As someone else said, Rand will bind the Nine Moons to him. Not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, the Nine Moons. That means she has to be Empress before that can happen.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Egwene: Awesome and annoying simultaneously. Really really really wish she could learn Da Truth™ about Rand. Looking forward to that a ton.

Rand: Beastly the entire way though, and it seems like he might just be on his way to recover from his emo spidey self. This will make me happy. Min disappointed me a bit in this book. Ah well, plenty of time for her to get back to badassery in the next couple.

Mat: Loved every bit of ever PoV Mat had. Pure awesome. Looking forward to hopefully a great deal more of him in Towers of Midnight.

Cadsuane: Annoying, and yet in her own way, a fun character to read PoVs from.

Nynaeve: Still a mixture of tolerable and annoying. Nothing new here.

Elayne: Blissfully absent.

Ituralde: Still beastly as ever.

Verin: Can't describe how bad ass she is.

Moiraine: Still not back yet. Dammit.

Perrin: Showing signs of maybe getting back into my good graces. Faile is still floating in never never land as far as how much I care about her goes.

Aviendha: Still insufferably hard to read. Like her character, but still a pretty tough PoV all in all.

Siuan: Always love reading her PoVs. Glad she finally admitted to herself that she's fallen for ole Gareth.

Borderlanders: Meh. Still nothin' new from these guys.

Tuon: Love reading her PoVs. Really hope Rand gets a chance to change her opinion of him.

Split White Tower Plot: FINA-FUCKIN-LY DONE WITH! THANK HEAVENS! Shit I was beginning to think this would never happen.

Did I miss anyone/thing important?

Belazamon
11-05-2009, 05:39 PM
Did I miss anyone/thing important?
Bela.

Uno
11-05-2009, 05:42 PM
Bela.

Yes, I did notice that the Nightmare made an appearance at the Seanchan strike, which means that the Shadow almost certainly had a hand in this affair. Obviously, it was Bela's use of the True Power that enabled Bryne to discover the Seanchan assassin. Stands to reason, really.

Crispin's Crispian
11-05-2009, 06:16 PM
No idea why the TAR ter'angreal are so important.Because the Dark One will be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 06:46 PM
Because the Dark One will be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod.

I wondered something similar. Seemed to be more to it than preventing Egwene and the SAS communicating. Worth (obviously) torturing a well placed Black Ajah for anyway.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 08:10 PM
Bela.Dammit, I KNEW I'd forgotten someone vastly important. Or wait, are you reminding me of who I forgot or just talking to yourself? :D :rolleyes: :p

And yes, Bela was once again at the scene of the crime. I'm telling you, she MUST be Asmo's killer. No other more intuitively obvious answer.

nameless
11-06-2009, 02:14 AM
I wondered something similar. Seemed to be more to it than preventing Egwene and the SAS communicating. Worth (obviously) torturing a well placed Black Ajah for anyway.

Depends which one of the Forsaken you think was responsible. Lanfear/Cyndane is easily childish and petty enough to main a potentially useful subordinate just to make sure no one else can play with her toys. Moghedien, on the other hand... I doubt she'd care about the dreamweavers one way or the other, unless she'd been ordered to take them.

FelixPax
11-06-2009, 05:01 AM
Depends which one of the Forsaken you think was responsible. ... I doubt she'd care about the dreamweavers one way or the other, unless she'd been ordered to take them.

Odd, I'm under the impression that Mesaana was the responsible for asking Sheriam to take and handover the sleepweaver ter'angreals.

Whereas, Ishamael & Be'lal were the ones behind the Liandrin's 13 Black Ajah taking the prior sleepweavers to Tear.

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 05:16 AM
The Chosen who visited Sheriam did not seem to know her precise position in the Salidar hierarchy. This would seem to rule out Mesaana, who had at least paid some attention to the AS.

That Chosen considered TAR to be the property of the Chosen, where others wouldn't be allowed to venture. That would seem to rule out Lanfear, who preferred to claim it for her own.

This seems to leave Moghedien, which, I must admit, surprises me. The more so, because Sheriam should then also have considered the possibility that she was meeting Nynaeve; at least until it became clear that her visitor was tied to the Shadow. After all, her first incling that there was a visitor was strength in the Power, and when it comes to that, Nynaeve and Moghedien are very comparable indeed.

One Armed Gimp
11-06-2009, 05:32 AM
Can't be Mogi, she knew Sheriam's position from her time in Salidar. I'd still go with Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 06:14 AM
Maybe it was Alivia? :p

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Maybe it was Alivia? :pI dunno, I was thinking it was Bela...

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:58 PM
It was Mesaana. She has never paid much attention to the details of who is who in the Black, according to Alviarin.

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 06:43 PM
I've had a bunch of things come up that I wanted to post about, but then always forgot by the time I got to the computer, save for one now. If I remember the others I'll just post them here. Most likely it's just small random stuff that I missed, or that I read, then forgot.

First off: How'd Egwene get the Oath Rod? She says, after swearing the Oaths, "I was given it last night by an ally in the Tower." Earlier it mentions 'Egwene ran her fingers along the smooth, tightly woven pouch she wore tied to her belt. Inside was a long, thin items, retrieved secretly from the White Tower earlier in the morning,' and this is most likely the Oath Rod...

So, an error or something else?

Davian93
11-06-2009, 06:52 PM
I've had a bunch of things come up that I wanted to post about, but then always forgot by the time I got to the computer, save for one now. If I remember the others I'll just post them here. Most likely it's just small random stuff that I missed, or that I read, then forgot.

First off: How'd Egwene get the Oath Rod? She says, after swearing the Oaths, "I was given it last night by an ally in the Tower." Earlier it mentions 'Egwene ran her fingers along the smooth, tightly woven pouch she wore tied to her belt. Inside was a long, thin items, retrieved secretly from the White Tower earlier in the morning,' and this is most likely the Oath Rod...

So, an error or something else?

I assume she Traveled back there and met with the Black Ajah hunters. That was my guess anyway. Another question, did she take the white rod sa'angreal with her when she left?

nameless
11-06-2009, 07:03 PM
Siuan took Vora's sa'angrael. She wasn't strong enough to Travel without it.

Davian93
11-06-2009, 07:09 PM
Siuan took Vora's sa'angrael. She wasn't strong enough to Travel without it.

Thanks. I thought so. I wonder if Egwene will hang onto it as her personal sa'angreal.

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Missed the point slightly Dave. Egwene said an ally in the Tower gave it to her the previous night...and she said this after swearing the Three Oaths, so it must be true. If she just Travelled back to get it...

This must mean that Egwene's Black Ajah...or perhaps Mesaana herself! She'd never expect herself to be one of the Forsaken! Very clever...

Davian93
11-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Missed the point slightly Dave. Egwene said an ally in the Tower gave it to her the previous night...and she said this after swearing the Three Oaths, so it must be true. If she just Travelled back to get it...

This must mean that Egwene's Black Ajah...or perhaps Mesaana herself! She'd never expect herself to be one of the Forsaken! Very clever...

No, not really. Egwene thinks about the fact that Saerin has it (pg 604) when she's with Verin. Egwene Traveled back and said "Hey Saerin, I need this Oath Rod." Saerin gives it to her, and she's completely telling the truth if only leaving out the details.

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:14 PM
ok, I could buy that...still, it's more fun to think that Mesaana's masquerading as Egwene. =D

Matoyak
11-08-2009, 12:16 AM
This must mean that Egwene's Black Ajah...or perhaps Mesaana herself! She'd never expect herself to be one of the Forsaken! Very clever...WIN. :eek::eek::eek:

Yuri33
11-08-2009, 02:33 AM
Let's just see if Egwene expresses any guilt/moral uncertainty about her own demands for oaths of fealty while simultaneously condemning Elaida's similar demands--she had plenty of opportunities in TGS, but it didn't happen.

Let's also see if she's willing to accept responsibility for Alanna's forced bonding of Rand. I can't find the passage in TGS, but she pretty explicitly states her responsibility for all AS actions, good and bad, whether she had control over them or not.

Terez
11-08-2009, 10:03 AM
It was said outright that Egwene got the Oath Rod from Saerin, that morning. (p. 679)

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 04:24 PM
another random minor point from this book. Simply releasing the Oaths doesn't reverse the Ageless effect, or at least it doesn't happen immediately. Perhaps if the Oaths were released then the Agelessness would fade eventually, but for now, the only way for it to vanish is stilling.

Weird Harold
11-08-2009, 05:04 PM
another random minor point from this book. Simply releasing the Oaths doesn't reverse the Ageless effect, or at least it doesn't happen immediately. Perhaps if the Oaths were released then the Agelessness would fade eventually, but for now, the only way for it to vanish is stilling.
Stilling doesn't immediately reverse the Ageless Look either. Siuan and Leanne were still basically unchanged when they escaped with Logain from the WT but by the time they crossed paths with Gareth Bryne, they were unrecogniseable as their former "ageless" selves -- a period of about two weeks, IIRC.

Removing the Oaths with the Oath Rod should remove the Ageless look if no new Oaths are sworn for a couple of weeks. It might not have the pronounced rejuvenation effect stilling had on Siuanand Leanne, but the thightening senstation of taking an Oath is clearly released when the Oath is released.

PS: The Ageless Look does not form instantaneously, why should we expect to disappear instantly?

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 05:08 PM
another random minor point from this book. Simply releasing the Oaths doesn't reverse the Ageless effect, or at least it doesn't happen immediately. Perhaps if the Oaths were released then the Agelessness would fade eventually, but for now, the only way for it to vanish is stilling.

Did they release all the oaths? I can't remember.

Marie Curie 7
11-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Stilling doesn't immediately reverse the Ageless Look either. Siuan and Leanne were still basically unchanged when they escaped with Logain from the WT but by the time they crossed paths with Gareth Bryne, they were unrecogniseable as their former "ageless" selves -- a period of about two weeks, IIRC.

Actually, Siuan and Leane lost the ageless look almost immediately after they were stilled.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 47 - The Truth of a Viewing

The key shifted suddenly, twisted with a snap so loud that Min feared something had broken. But when she pushed at the rough wooden door, it opened. Snatching up the bundles, she stepped into the bare stone cell – and stopped in confusion.

The lantern light revealed two women clad only in dark bruises and red welts, shielding their eyes from the sudden light, but for a moment Min was not sure they were the right two. One was tall and coppery-skinned, the other shorter, sturdier, more fair. The faces looked right – almost right – and untouched by whatever had been done to them, so she should have been certain. But the agelessness that marked Aes Sedai seemed to have melted away; she would have had no hesitation at all in thinking these women were just six or seven years older than herself at most, and not Aes Sedai at all. Her face heated with embarrassment at the thought. She saw no images, no auras, around either; there were always images and auras around Aes Sedai. Stop that, she told herself.

The idea I think is that the shock of the stilling reversed the ageless look pretty much instantaneously.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 05:38 PM
yes, they did release all the Oaths, but then the rebound themselves, so not enough time for the Agelessness to disappear.

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 05:43 PM
yes, they did release all the Oaths, but then the rebound themselves, so not enough time for the Agelessness to disappear.

Fair enough. That leaves me a bit confused. So only a stilling can remove the Ageless face immediately, it seems.

Weird Harold
11-08-2009, 05:58 PM
Actually, Siuan and Leane lost the ageless look almost immediately after they were stilled.



The idea I think is that the shock of the stilling reversed the ageless look pretty much instantaneously.
Min's rescue was a full day after they were stilled. and the reuvenation process wasn't complete at that point -- at least in their next appearance 40 days later, all traces of the ageless look are gone and IIRC they look even younger.

The delay isn't as long as I remembered it being, but it still isn't instantaneous or even fast enough to be noticeable in the lapse between foreswearing all oaths and reswearing the Three Oaths.

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 06:01 PM
Min's rescue was a full day after they were stilled. and the reuvenation process wasn't complete at that point -- at least in their next appearance 40 days later, all traces of the ageless look are gone and IIRC they look even younger.

The delay isn't as long as I remembered it being, but it still isn't instantaneous or even fast enough to be noticeable in the lapse between foreswearing all oaths and reswearing the Three Oaths.

Also depends on whether the Aes Sedai used a swear off/swear on or swore off, swore on one vow at a time.

edit: Not sure why I changed tenses halfway through there

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 06:04 PM
I don't think we've seen someone completely released from the Oaths with the Rod lose the agelessness, like the stilling does, that's the point I was trying to get to. Have we seen any other Aes Sedai after they were stilled? I think there was some mention in aCoS of the Aes Sedai Rand stilled in his escape, but I don't believe they mention the Agelessness disappearing.

Another thing that I noticed, but had forgotten, Tam killed a blademaster, in front of witnesses, something that he's "never forgiven [himself] for, though it needed doing". Could it be possible that Tam is the one that killed Laman? If not Laman then who else could Tam have killed that was a blademaster? Anyone have a New Spring laying around? Does is state where the Cairhienin were stationed during that fight? Was it on the west side near Dragonmount?

Davian93
11-08-2009, 06:13 PM
I don't think we've seen someone completely released from the Oaths with the Rod lose the agelessness, like the stilling does, that's the point I was trying to get to. Have we seen any other Aes Sedai after they were stilled? I think there was some mention in aCoS of the Aes Sedai Rand stilled in his escape, but I don't believe they mention the Agelessness disappearing.

Another thing that I noticed, but had forgotten, Tam killed a blademaster, in front of witnesses, something that he's "never forgiven [himself] for, though it needed doing". Could it be possible that Tam is the one that killed Laman? If not Laman then who else could Tam have killed that was a blademaster? Anyone have a New Spring laying around? Does is state where the Cairhienin were stationed during that fight? Was it on the west side near Dragonmount?

Nah, the Aiel killed Laman (and then cut off his head).

It was likely someone during the Whitecloak Wars...there's that circumstantial evidence that Tam was the one leading the Companions when they stopped Pedron Niall's attack. Maybe that was when he did it?

Weird Harold
11-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Also depends on whether the Aes Sedai used a swear off/swear on or swore off, swore on one vow at a time.

edit: Not sure why I changed tenses halfway through there
If the BA HUnter's practices were carried forward...

Talene foreswore all "oaths that bind me" then swore each of the Three Oaths in turn, plus the oath of obedience to the five BA Hunting sitters.

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 06:15 PM
I don't think we've seen someone completely released from the Oaths with the Rod lose the agelessness, like the stilling does, that's the point I was trying to get to. Have we seen any other Aes Sedai after they were stilled? I think there was some mention in aCoS of the Aes Sedai Rand stilled in his escape, but I don't believe they mention the Agelessness disappearing.

Another thing that I noticed, but had forgotten, Tam killed a blademaster, in front of witnesses, something that he's "never forgiven [himself] for, though it needed doing". Could it be possible that Tam is the one that killed Laman? If not Laman then who else could Tam have killed that was a blademaster? Anyone have a New Spring laying around? Does is state where the Cairhienin were stationed during that fight? Was it on the west side near Dragonmount?

Tam certainly has a lot to answer for. As much as his standing up to Cadsuane was laudable, his raising of his son as an ignorant being was a strange one.

Davian93
11-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Seriously though, why don't the AS just swear one big oath? Wouldn't that eliminate the cutting the life in half? I mean, now that they know that effect, why doesn't Egwene have some freaking common sense and figure out a way to still have Oaths without losing 300-400 years of life? I can see Nynaeve in particular NOT wanting to swear and Egwene throwing a fit. Personally, I'd tell her to go fvck herself if she wanted me to cut my life in half for a stupid Oath.

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 06:17 PM
If the BA HUnter's practices were carried forward...

Talene foreswore all "oaths that bind me" then swore each of the Three Oaths in turn, plus the oath of obedience to the five BA Hunting sitters.

Thanks. Most questions I ask will result in common instruction!

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 06:23 PM
Seriously though, why don't the AS just swear one big oath? Wouldn't that eliminate the cutting the life in half? I mean, now that they know that effect, why doesn't Egwene have some freaking common sense and figure out a way to still have Oaths without losing 300-400 years of life? I can see Nynaeve in particular NOT wanting to swear and Egwene throwing a fit. Personally, I'd tell her to go fvck herself if she wanted me to cut my life in half for a stupid Oath.

This definitely has to be sorted. The Kin idea is ridiculous (wherein an Aes Sedai can retire to Kin status). That would mean that after 200 years you might have the Queens of Andor/Malkier and the ex-Amyrlin, free of oaths and expected to be subservient; with 500 years on the cards! In no time the Kin would be running things, with greater numbers and freedom.

Simply not feasible. Just need Elayne to 'voila' a better Oath Rod that requires no sacrifice.

Weird Harold
11-08-2009, 06:27 PM
I don't think we've seen someone completely released from the Oaths with the Rod lose the agelessness, like the stilling does, that's the point I was trying to get to. Have we seen any other Aes Sedai after they were stilled? I think there was some mention in aCoS of the Aes Sedai Rand stilled in his escape, but I don't believe they mention the Agelessness disappearing.

In the prologue to tPoD, Verin comments on Irgain Fatamed (and the other two stilled by Rand) not being made da'stang but she doesn't comment on her having lost the ageless look -- just how distraught she is over losing two warders.

one of the others stilled by Rand is Sashalle:

Sashalle Anderly
An Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah. She sides with the White Tower.

Physical Description
She has blue eyes and shoulder length curly hair. Since she was stilled she appears short of her middle years instead of ageless. (CoT,Prologue)

Brita
11-08-2009, 06:34 PM
Simply not feasible. Just need Elayne to 'voila' a better Oath Rod that requires no sacrifice.

That is a great solution. I personally was hoping Egwene would do away with the oaths (looking less and less likely this will happen), but this solution would make me happy.

I agree with the retirement to the kin farce as well. It simply won't work. Besides, the oaths were primarily inswtituted to make non-channelers people feel safe, how will they feel safe if female channelers are only bound to oaths for 1/3 of their life?

Kurtz
11-08-2009, 06:43 PM
That is a great solution. I personally was hoping Egwene would do away with the oaths (looking less and less likely this will happen), but this solution would make me happy.

I agree with the retirement to the kin farce as well. It simply won't work. Besides, the oaths were primarily inswtituted to make non-channelers people feel safe, how will they feel safe if female channelers are only bound to oaths for 1/3 of their life?

Cutting to the nub as always, my dear!

The Oaths are going to be a massive issue, especially with the Black Tower looming.

Marie Curie 7
11-08-2009, 07:56 PM
Min's rescue was a full day after they were stilled. and the reuvenation process wasn't complete at that point -- at least in their next appearance 40 days later, all traces of the ageless look are gone and IIRC they look even younger.

Min and Laras rescued them the next day, yeah, but all we know is that the ageless look was lost some time after the stilling occurred and before that cell door was opened. So, some time within one day of the stilling the ageless look disappeared, pretty immediate compared to your assertion of about 20 days for it to fully disappear. That's why Gawyn thought Siuan and Leane were in disguise when he encountered them trying to leave Tar Valon.

The delay isn't as long as I remembered it being, but it still isn't instantaneous or even fast enough to be noticeable in the lapse between foreswearing all oaths and reswearing the Three Oaths.

I did not claim that removing the Oaths for a few minutes would lead to the ageless look disappearing - we know that it doesn't. My point was that Siuan and Leane lost the ageless look very quickly due to the shock of the stilling and rough treatment, as Siuan posits in the quote below.

Right after they met Gawyn, Siuan examined Leane and concluded that she looked about 15 years younger:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 47 - The Truth of a Viewing

Siuan half-raised a hand to her throat; a tiny line of red on the fair skin marked where his blade had rested. "I've been too long with the Power," she said, a trifle unsteadily. "I had forgotten what it is like to face someone who can pick you up and snap you like a thread." She peered at Leane then, as if seeing her for the first time, and touched her own face as though unsure what it looked like. "From what I have read it is supposed to take longer to fade, but perhaps Elaida's rough treatment had something to do with it. A disguise, he called it, and it may serve for one." She clambered awkwardly onto Bela's back, handling the reins as if the shaggy mare were a spirited stallion. "Another advantage, it seems, to being... I have to learn to say it without flinching. I have been stilled." She said the words slowly and deliberately, then nodded. "There. If Leane is any guide, I've lost a good fifteen years, maybe more. I've known women who would pay any price for that. A third advantage." She glanced at Gawyn. He still had his back turned, but she lowered her voice anyway. "Along with a certain loosening of the tongue, shall we say? I had not thought of Mara in years. A friend of my girlhood."

Siuan was born around 958 NE, so at the time she would have been about 41, so looking about 15 years younger would mean that her appearance corresponded to about age 26 or so.

When Nynaeve arrived in Salidar, she encountered Siuan for the first time, and thought that she appeared at most only a few years older than Nynaeve:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn

She and Elayne were not alone standing on the colorful silk carpet. Siuan, in a plain dress of fine blue wool, might have been there by choice if Nynaeve had not known better, her face cool, utterly composed. She seemed lost in untroubled thought. Leane at least watched the Aes Sedai, yet she appeared equally confident. In fact, somehow more self-confident than Nynaeve remembered. The copper-skinned woman looked even more willowy, too, more supple in some fashion. Perhaps it was her scandalous dress. That pale green silk was every bit as high-necked as Siuan's, but it clung to every curve of her, and the material only managed to be opaque by a thin hair. It was their faces that truly stunned Nynaeve, though. She had never expected to find either alive, and certainly never looking so very young – no more than a few years older than she if that. They did not so much as glance at one another. In truth, she thought she detected a distinct chill between them.

Nynaeve is about 26 or 27, so her estimation of Siuan's and Leane's appearance in Salidar fits with Siuan's appraisal of Leane's appearance one day after they were stilled. Thus, it doesn't appear to me that Siuan and Leane lost any more of the ageless look during their travels to Salidar. From the descriptions that we have, they looked about 15 years younger right after the stilling and also several weeks later (it was ~85 days from the stilling to Nynaeve's arrival in Salidar).

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 09:18 PM
CoT's prologue? That isn't going to help narrow the time down at all. Ah, well.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 09:22 PM
Well, we've never actually seen that, it's just a bit of speculation that perhaps Tam had done it, left, and the Aiel found the body afterwards and took the sword as proof.

Again, a great number of other options, such as the Whitecloak Wars would suit better, but I could see someone like Tam doing something like that if Laman were out of control, then stumbling away to the slopes of Dragonmount to find Rand.

nameless
11-09-2009, 02:35 AM
Seriously though, why don't the AS just swear one big oath? Wouldn't that eliminate the cutting the life in half? I mean, now that they know that effect, why doesn't Egwene have some freaking common sense and figure out a way to still have Oaths without losing 300-400 years of life? I can see Nynaeve in particular NOT wanting to swear and Egwene throwing a fit. Personally, I'd tell her to go fvck herself if she wanted me to cut my life in half for a stupid Oath.

I don't think that's how it works. 1 Oath, 3 Oaths, 20 Oaths... you still lose the same amount of lifespan, you still gain the ageless look at the same speed. At least, that's the impression I got from Semirhage's flashback to her run for Shayol Gul. They were only going to make her swear not to torture any more patients, but she thinks even that would have been enough to make her "see death approaching" or however it is she phrases it. (I know she doesn't use an exact figure so I don't feel any reason to dig up the quote and be precisely vague about it. If anyone else wants to, I'm pretty sure it's in the bit when she tortures Cabriana Sedai).

Terez
11-09-2009, 02:58 AM
I don't think that's how it works. 1 Oath, 3 Oaths, 20 Oaths... you still lose the same amount of lifespan, you still gain the ageless look at the same speed.
RJ has confirmed that less than three Oaths will not give someone the ageless look - that's a product of three Oaths (or, presumably, more). It's only logical that additional Oaths will further tighten the skin, as the effect is obviously cumulative, from Moiraine's point of view, and Egwene's. So it's also logical that they will also further decrease the lifespan, I think.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 05:38 AM
I don't think we've seen someone completely released from the Oaths with the Rod lose the agelessness, like the stilling does, that's the point I was trying to get to. Have we seen any other Aes Sedai after they were stilled?There's the one Egwene stilled in the Stone. She had lost the Ageless look, though it took Aviendha to notice it.

There's mistress Anan, who is (almost certainly) a burned out AS. She doesn't have the Ageless look anymore.

There is Galina, who almost (but not entirely) manages to free herself from the Oaths. She still has the Ageless look.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 08:34 AM
Galina was BA though and would have sworn other Oaths to make up for those that she removed.

Terez
11-09-2009, 08:46 AM
Gonzo was talking about when she got Faile to steal the Oath Rod for her in Malden, and very nearly managed to free herself (but, like an idiot, decided to wait until she was out of the city first).

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2009, 08:55 AM
I think she couldn't free herself, because she had been forbidden to channel. So she would have needed someone else to do that for her, and the only possible candidate had been locked up in a collapsing house by a BA member.

Terez
11-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Ah yes, that was it. In any case, she didn't quite make it.

You know, it's been about 2 years since I did a re-read. I think it's about time for one. :) I've already started, but I haven't had much time, so I've been on The Eye of the World for about a month now. I will have more time next month after finals...

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 11:32 AM
It was said outright that Egwene got the Oath Rod from Saerin, that morning. (p. 679)
Stop with the quotes. They're not helping.





:p

Bonzi77
11-09-2009, 12:02 PM
There's the one Egwene stilled in the Stone. She had lost the Ageless look, though it took Aviendha to notice it.

There's mistress Anan, who is (almost certainly) a burned out AS. She doesn't have the Ageless look anymore.

There is Galina, who almost (but not entirely) manages to free herself from the Oaths. She still has the Ageless look.

I think there's a difference between having the oaths forcibly removed by stilling and actively unswearing on the oath rod. At the very least, it's a matter of speed.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Another random thought: one of the first things Tuon will likely do when she finds at least one of her new damane can Travel, won't be to use it offensively, but instead it will be used to return to Seanchan and restore some order there and fully claim the Crystal Throne. I have a feeling Rand might be invovled in this, especially if a very old theory of mine (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=49&theo=298) turns out to be correct. I can see Rand using LTT's memories to go a revisit a few places that used to be around.

FelixPax
11-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Another random thought: one of the first things Tuon will likely do when she finds at least one of her new damane can Travel, won't be to use it offensively, but instead it will be used to return to Seanchan and restore some order there and fully claim the Crystal Throne.

It's highly possible, but would there be anyone who could acknowledge Tuon as the Empress in Seanchan still live? :confused:

I have a feeling Rand might be invovled in this, especially if a very old theory of mine (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=49&theo=298) turns out to be correct. I can see Rand using LTT's memories to go a revisit a few places that used to be around.

If your 'very old theory' is correct, where would the Tinkers, Jenn Aiel, Amayar fit into the original seat of power? Tylee mentioned to Perrin that there was nothing like the Tinkers society in all of Seanchan.

the Nine Rods of Dominion = the Nine Moons and the Crystal Throne could be the 'High Seat' on which the "First Among Servants" sat, which might also have been called the Tamyrlin Seat.

Where are the original Aiel pre-breaking Tinkers in this theory? If they did at one time exist in Seanchan, why haven't we heard of them already in the story?

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 09:27 PM
see Rand's trip through the glass columns in Rhuidean. They all packed up and walked East. There's an ocean there now, but during the breaking alot of things, including oceans and mountain ranges, changed their postal codes.

Lord Bloodpath
11-12-2009, 03:27 AM
Neat thought.... If Tuon does go back and consolidate quickly, she might bring back even more troops since she'll know she can move them at any time to wherever they're needed and she'll also have a clue that they're all in for a pretty rough ride between the DO and the DR...

ShadowbaneX
11-12-2009, 09:19 AM
bring back troops? Not likely. If she does go back there she might well have a problem consolidating her throne since she was away. See: Elayne securing the Lion Throne.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:29 AM
The outrigger novels were supposed to be about Mat and Tuon, ten years in the future, trying to re-establish the rule of the Empress on the Seanchan continent. So I doubt she could take care of things that quickly. :)

ShadowbaneX
11-12-2009, 09:37 AM
The outrigger novels were supposed to be about Mat and Tuon, ten years in the future, trying to re-establish the rule of the Empress on the Seanchan continent. So I doubt she could take care of things that quickly. :) I would have liked to have seen that.

Lord Bloodpath
11-12-2009, 10:36 PM
Me too.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 10:10 AM
I am wondering what the reverse of a line of Spirit is.
In order to undo Compulsion, Nynaeve had to reverse the weaves, and Compulsion is apparently made up of lines of Spirit, Air and Water. Thus, something has to be the reverse of such a line of Spirit (Air, Water), but I can't imagine what it could be.

Matoyak
11-13-2009, 02:30 PM
I am wondering what the reverse of a line of Spirit is.
In order to undo Compulsion, Nynaeve had to reverse the weaves, and Compulsion is apparently made up of lines of Spirit, Air and Water. Thus, something has to be the reverse of such a line of Spirit (Air, Water), but I can't imagine what it could be.I pictured a literal reverse of the geometric shape of the weave, rather than a Opposite element effect...So I pictured her using spirit, air, and water, just a reflection geometrically, and in the opposite order. Like, you undo a shoelace the opposite way you tie it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 04:37 AM
I pictured a literal reverse of the geometric shape of the weave, rather than a Opposite element effect...So I pictured her using spirit, air, and water, just a reflection geometrically, and in the opposite order. Like, you undo a shoelace the opposite way you tie it.Yeah. Now try to undo your shoelaces by placing an oppositely tied shoelace on top of it. :p

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 09:00 AM
Don't know about you, but I undo my shoelaces by pulling on the free end of the slipknot. I'd love to see how you do it.

Describing the mechanics of weaving in strict physical terms is an exercise in futility anyways, especially when discussing weaves that are Spirit-dominant.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 09:23 AM
Well, Rand managed it. I am merely wondering what it was that he made Nynaeve understand.

ZaderGru
11-14-2009, 12:29 PM
The outrigger novels were supposed to be about Mat and Tuon, ten years in the future, trying to re-establish the rule of the Empress on the Seanchan continent. So I doubt she could take care of things that quickly. :)

Terez
Was this a direct quote from RJ?
I am surprised he would give away such a big spoiler.

Terez
11-14-2009, 12:56 PM
Paraphrase, but you can find it on his blog, and in other places. We thought it was a big spoiler as well, but he only started mentioning it in such detail after he publicly announced his illness, so that might have something to do with it.

nameless
11-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Well, Rand managed it. I am merely wondering what it was that he made Nynaeve understand.

Reverse in this context means mirror image. I thought that was clear from the way Nyneave used the same composition of the 5 powers that Compulsion uses.

Lord Bloodpath
11-14-2009, 09:33 PM
I got the distinct impression that if you know Compulsion and want someone to forget that you kidnapped them, that there was anything preventing them from loving you, and then made them love you, you would need to add more weaves for each thing. Like programming a computer. Now if you want to undo it, you have to specifically weave to make them stop loving the Compulser, remember the Compelling of love, the reason they couldn't love that person and the kidnapping.

Maybe if you were good enough, you could recognize the weave that made them forget the kidnapping and leave it there as that could be kinder, but then they'll have a gap in their memory... Even if you're really good you can mess someone up bad.

JSUCamel
11-14-2009, 10:15 PM
Now if you want to undo it, you have to specifically weave to make them stop loving the Compulser, remember the Compelling of love, the reason they couldn't love that person and the kidnapping.

Just being a grammar nazi. This happens every time we talk about this topic, but I wanted to point it out cause it kinda drives me nuts. You had it right once and wrong once. The verb is "compelled" not "compulsed". The noun form is "compulsion". Therefore, someone compels another. Someone is compelled (verb), not compulsed. Someone was affected by compulsion (noun).

I don't believe "compeller" is actually in the dictionary, but it is the natural derivative for an agent of the verb "compel". Therefore, a person who compels is a compeller, not a compulser.

Carry on. :)

the silent speaker
11-15-2009, 09:47 PM
Just being a grammar nazi. This happens every time we talk about this topic, but I wanted to point it out cause it kinda drives me nuts. You had it right once and wrong once. The verb is "compelled" not "compulsed". The noun form is "compulsion". Therefore, someone compels another. Someone is compelled (verb), not compulsed. Someone was affected by compulsion (noun).

I don't believe "compeller" is actually in the dictionary, but it is the natural derivative for an agent of the verb "compel". Therefore, a person who compels is a compeller, not a compulser.

Carry on. :)
A person who applies Compulsion could be a compulsor, the same way a thing that causes repulsion is a repulsor. The coinage "compulse" is not a gimme, but it has its points and is defensible at least as a usage-specific coinage.

Belazamon
11-15-2009, 10:10 PM
The coinage "compulse" is not a gimme, but it has its points and is defensible at least as a usage-specific coinage.
It would be defensible if it was actually used. Sadly, no dice there. :p

Daekyras
11-29-2009, 02:10 PM
For me, Cadsuane is tied with Gawyn as the most annoying character in the series. With all her so-called wisdom, you would think she would know better than to start every sentence with some version of "Foolish boy!" when she is trying to get her point across.

Oh yes, I back you on this. I had the following order of dislike before tGS:
Gawyn,
Egwene,
Cadsuane,
Nynaeve
A huge(really huge) gap to alanna.

Now egwene has escaped my hate list but Gawyn and Cadsuane have opened a huge lead over the rest of the field...

Also, am I the only one who misses a Galad chapter here and there. That do gooding wondersword is great..

Davian93
11-29-2009, 02:18 PM
Oh yes, I back you on this. I had the following order of dislike before tGS:
Gawyn,
Egwene,
Cadsuane,
Nynaeve
A huge(really huge) gap to alanna.

Now egwene has escaped my hate list but Gawyn and Cadsuane have opened a huge lead over the rest of the field...

Also, am I the only one who misses a Galad chapter here and there. That do gooding wondersword is great..

What in the world is wrong with Nyneave? She's one of the best characters in the books.

Daekyras
11-29-2009, 02:28 PM
What in the world is wrong with Nyneave? She's one of the best characters in the books.

Her story arc is fantastic but her point of view chapters make her really, really annoying.

Seriously, the characters I have written there are all the ones who REFUSE to change much. She reads like a 25 year old version of cadsuane and gives out about her actions while thinking the exact same things. Read her dealings with Rand in this book. Made me want to scream!!

Although her partial admittance that moiraine did a good job is a massive step to redeeming herself for me.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 03:58 AM
In this book, Nynaeve is too much under Cadsuane's influence.
I do not understand why, I have to admit, since she was doing better with Rand (and other things) before she became subservient to Cadsuane. And with Cadsuane's track record of failure in handling Rand, there wouldn't seem all that much reason to hold her in awe.

Perhaps Cadsuane used Compulsion on Nynaeve?

Trutino
12-05-2009, 01:18 AM
Speaking of the Gathering Storm and the storm gathering in the north, a question about the weather. Do we know if any other thrones besides the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal? In tPoD prologue, Ethenielle of Kandor remembers that one of her ancestors, Surasa, believed that she could control the weather because she held the "Throne of the Clouds." It made me wonder if Surasa was a wilder and the throne was a ter'angreal. For that matter, I also wondered about Altara's "Throne of the Winds." Sorry if this has already been mentioned; I did my best to check!

Weird Harold
12-05-2009, 11:40 AM
Speaking of the Gathering Storm and the storm gathering in the north, a question about the weather. Do we know if any other thrones besides the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal? In tPoD prologue, Ethenielle of Kandor remembers that one of her ancestors, Surasa, believed that she could control the weather because she held the "Throne of the Clouds." It made me wonder if Surasa was a wilder and the throne was a ter'angreal. For that matter, I also wondered about Altara's "Throne of the Winds." Sorry if this has already been mentioned; I did my best to check!
Idon't believe it has been mentioned. It is an interesting question.

Unfortunately, I doubt that those two Thrones are ter'angreal because of the search for means to correct the weather that turned up the Bowl of the Winds. Either ter'angreal throne would have been easier to gain access too than a mysterious ter'angreal nobody knew how to use or where it was. :D

Also, Aes Sedai have had centuries of access to those throne rooms and you'd think that at least one would have noticed they were ter'angreal.

I suppose there is a remote possibility they are male-only ter'angreal, but that seems unlikely to me.

Trutino
12-06-2009, 01:25 AM
Idon't believe it has been mentioned. It is an interesting question.

Unfortunately, I doubt that those two Thrones are ter'angreal because of the search for means to correct the weather that turned up the Bowl of the Winds. Either ter'angreal throne would have been easier to gain access too than a mysterious ter'angreal nobody knew how to use or where it was. :D

Also, Aes Sedai have had centuries of access to those throne rooms and you'd think that at least one would have noticed they were ter'angreal.

I suppose there is a remote possibility they are male-only ter'angreal, but that seems unlikely to me.

Yeah, I don't really see how they would introduce it plot-wise. I know that there were a number of ter'angreal used to control the weather. Moridin notes in tPoD that the bowl is one of the smaller ones. It's possible that RJ mentioned the Throne of the Clouds to complement that. I still do think that the throne might be something, partially because he mentioned it a few chapters before the girls use the bowl. It seems so perfectly timed. If we hadn't known that the bowl existed by that point, we would have jumped all over that sentence as a clue.

There has been a lot of speculation that we'll be seeing the Crystal Throne which might lead people to wonder about thrones more generally. That said, even if it is a ter'angreal and even if the Aes Sedai who have hung out in Kandor don't have any ter'angreal sensing-Talents, unless they decide to use some thrones to help beat back the storm from the north, it does seem redundant at this point.

wolframbohr2
12-06-2009, 01:44 AM
That would be so cool to have thrones at the Last battle. They could slap some wheels with killer rims on, give then a pimpin paint job. Tie some gleeman on to make a thumpin sound system. They could zoom around the battlefield causing all sorts of havoc to the Dark Ones armies with the Throne of YMCA or the Throne of Macarena.

Weird Harold
12-06-2009, 01:51 AM
That would be so cool to have thrones at the Last battle. They could slap some wheels with killer rims on, give then a pimpin paint job. Tie some gleeman on to make a thumpin sound system. They could zoom around the battlefield causing all sorts of havoc to the Dark Ones armies with the Throne of YMCA or the Throne of Macarena.
I think I want some of what you're having. :D

Trutino
12-06-2009, 04:26 PM
I'm trying to decide if the thrones would have people "driving" them on the battlefield or if they would act on their own. Now I just have this image of objects coming to life like in Bedknobs and Broomsticks and fighting in TG. :D

Belazamon
12-06-2009, 05:50 PM
Well, the forces of the Light are going to need something to counteract all that malicious furniture from the Bubbles of Evil.

nameless
12-06-2009, 06:27 PM
They could always get the Whitecloak Inquisitors to bring out the Comfy Chair.

Wantanswers
01-19-2010, 07:57 PM
In this book, Nynaeve is too much under Cadsuane's influence.
I do not understand why, I have to admit, since she was doing better with Rand (and other things) before she became subservient to Cadsuane. And with Cadsuane's track record of failure in handling Rand, there wouldn't seem all that much reason to hold her in awe.

Perhaps Cadsuane used Compulsion on Nynaeve?

Cadsuane cannot use the OP on Nynaeve because of one of her ter'angreals

GonzoTheGreat
01-20-2010, 02:27 AM
Cadsuane cannot use the OP on Nynaeve because of one of her ter'angrealsTrue, but then, what other reason could Nynaeve have for giving up a successful approach in favor of a severely flawed one?

Wantanswers
01-20-2010, 03:11 AM
True, but then, what other reason could Nynaeve have for giving up a successful approach in favor of a severely flawed one?
Although she won't admit it, Nynaeve admires Cadsuane.

Terez
01-20-2010, 03:17 AM
Be advised that Gonzo is almost never being serious.

GonzoTheGreat
01-20-2010, 04:30 AM
I do know that Nynaeve admires Cadsuane, but I wonder what for. In her interactions with Rand, Cadsuane hasn't shown any skill that I'm aware of. There were only two things that saved her from being booted out forcefully. First, the fact that Min said she had to teach something, and Rand assumed that he had to be somewhat nice to her so as not to scare her away. Second, that the Aiel assumed that Cadsuane had been responsible for saving Rand from Fain's magic man-eathing mist.

An added advantage which Cadsuane abused was the fact that Rand had better (or more constricting, at least) manners than she has. If it had been me she had slapped, I would have struck back.
Come to think of it: it is going to be interesting to see how Rand deals with her now that's at least somewhat come to his senses.

nameless
01-20-2010, 04:46 AM
Nynaeve admires Cadsuane because she wants to be a respected old lady. In her present role as a beautiful young woman society makes it difficult for her to solve all her problems by yelling at people and hitting them with sticks. She does it anyway, but it's not easy for her. As a cranky old woman she would be allowed to yell and hit to her heart's content. She sees in Cadsuane the culmination of all her life's ambitions.