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Birgitte
11-04-2009, 06:27 PM
It's quite honestly impossible to keep up with stuff here and keep up with real life, so forgive me if this has been discussed before.

But I have a theory. Try not to fall over.

I think Rand's been channeling the True Power unconsciously throughout tGS. More specifically, every time the light dimmed in the room when he was getting upset and unable to control it. I felt that the light dimming needed an explanation, but couldn't come up with a real viable reason the light would dim until I started my re-read of the series and came across this:


TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount
Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

Now, that's hardly conclusive, true. But Rand is channeling every time I can think of that black cloud forms in the room and the only time an Asha'man is around to confirm he's channeling saidin is during his discussion with Tuon and there aren't any external signs of light Compulsion (note that I am asserting that he's using Compulsion on her. That's how I read it and that's how I still see it, even after considering Rand's ta'veren-ness. Her thoughts are just too unnatural for it to be anything else, imo. But that's largely another debate.)

Anyway, unless someone can give me another viable option or prove me wrong, I'm going with Rand is unknowingly channeling the TP.

I've also toyed with idea that Moridin is doing it through him somehow, but even I'm not sure about that one.

Terez
11-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Yeah, there's also the bit where Ituralde watches him make a gateway outside the stedding, and Rand has a look of ecstasy on his face. When I first read that, I thought "Is Rand channeling the True Power?" And then I thought, nahhhhh....couldn't be!

But it's weird, cause he definitely realized he was using it when he killed Semirhage. You'd think he would have recognized it before. Perhaps he only recognized it with Semirhage because he KNEW it wasn't saidin.

However, the shadow that accompanied Ishamael in the early books is an advanced side effect of using the True Power, and I think some of that is coming through the link with Moridin.

Davian93
11-04-2009, 06:32 PM
Yeah, there's also the bit where Ituralde watches him make a gateway outside the stedding, and Rand has a look of ecstasy on his face. When I first read that, I thought "Is Rand channeling the True Power?" And then I thought, nahhhhh....couldn't be!

But it's weird, cause he definitely realized he was using it when he killed Semirhage. You'd think he would have recognized it before. Perhaps he only recognized it with Semirhage because he KNEW it wasn't saidin.

The ecstasy line bothered me too. At first I figured it was just the joy of channeling after being in a Stedding even if for a brief time.

Birgitte
11-04-2009, 06:38 PM
However, the shadow that accompanied Ishamael in the early books is an advanced side effect of using the True Power, and I think some of that is coming through the link with Moridin.

That's partly why I think that Moridin could be acting through him somehow.

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 06:50 PM
Whoa, good catch, oh TCA Queen :) (missed this the other day, and it has fallen down onto page two, so this is really a bump and me saying "huh. I could see this being true, possibly")

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 06:54 PM
Can the True Power be drawn through the Choeden Kal?

I didn't think so and Rand used that rather exclusively towards the end.

I figured the shadow was simply a remnant from that one single touchhing

Bonzi77
11-05-2009, 06:55 PM
I don't think he was using it with Ituralde. TP traveling is different than OP traveling. Remember how Ishamael appeared out of thin air in EotW?

Birgitte
11-05-2009, 11:26 PM
I'd go over the Rand scenes again to see and doublecheck stuff, but I'm lending my book to Bryan Blaire.

Frenzy
11-05-2009, 11:40 PM
Perhaps one of Callandor's flaws is that it can amplify TP as well as Saidin. Wouldn't THAT be fun to watch.

And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.

Perhaps i should finish the book and catch up on threads before i theorize. ;)

Matoyak
11-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Perhaps i should finish the bookQFT.
Hurry up, o' leader of squirrels. We need your dark thoughts on the matters at hand.

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:47 PM
Perhaps one of Callandor's flaws is that it can amplify TP as well as Saidin. Wouldn't THAT be fun to watch.

And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.

Perhaps i should finish the book and catch up on threads before i theorize. ;)


Frenzy, as always cuts through everything. She deserves an effigy.

That is a ridiculously good guess.

The Dark One would maybe be vulnerable to his own power

Frenzy
11-05-2009, 11:49 PM
It's like a cosmic "go fuck yourself" moment.

oh, and Perrin is now on the top of my list of who needs to be slapped. With Gawyn a close second.

i'm on Chapter 32. i'm almost there...

Kurtz
11-05-2009, 11:53 PM
It's like a cosmic "go fuck yourself" moment.

oh, and Perrin is now on the top of my list of who needs to be slapped. With Gawyn a close second.

i'm on Chapter 32. i'm almost there...

Mat should always be top

Sei'taer
11-05-2009, 11:53 PM
No saa. Saa is caused by the TP.


Those who channel the True Power find themselves irresistibly drawn to consume more and more of it as time goes on (or as long as they are allowed to by the Dark One). Eventually flecks and strands of blackness, called saa, would appear in the eyes of a habitual user in a greater degree as they channeled more and more of the True Power, until the saa spread across one's entire eyes to color them completely black, at which point the channeler had become totally and irreversibly insane.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:16 AM
Hence why we think the shadow thing is a product of the link with Moridin rather than a product of Rand using the True Power just that once (or maybe a few times, but still).

Neilbert
11-06-2009, 12:21 AM
The ecstasy line bothered me too. At first I figured it was just the joy of channeling after being in a Stedding even if for a brief time.

I think that Rand's saidin addiction doesn't get enough play. The guy holds on to saidin almost sconstantly, and lives in the void. Being in the stedding sucks for any channeler, to one as addicted to Rand it's gotta be horrible.

I don't think it's possible to channel the True Power without recognizing what it is.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:28 AM
Rand holds saidin all the time because it's a pain in the ass to seize it, not because he's addicted. Also, he was only in the stedding for a few minutes. :rolleyes:

Jonai
11-06-2009, 01:41 AM
Rand holds saidin all the time because it's a pain in the ass to seize it, not because he's addicted. Also, he was only in the stedding for a few minutes. :rolleyes:

What she said. Besides, wasn't Rand in Far Madding for what seemed like forever and he wasn't freakin' too much, meanwhile, Nynaeve and company were high tailing it to the county line to partake of the saidar crack pipe.

nameless
11-06-2009, 01:45 AM
If he wasn't addicted to begin with he will be pretty soon at the rate he's going.

And I'd be much more confident about posting this if I had my copy of tDR handy, but doesn't the whole dimming of the lights bit happen at the very end, when Rand names the Dark One? In The Gathering Storm I took it as a sign that he's had the DO's attention pretty much constantly ever since he touched the True Power, almost as if he were screaming "Shai'tan!" from the rooftops every few minutes.

Jonai
11-06-2009, 01:48 AM
Well every channeler is addicted, but its a matter of degree. What did Moggy say? A very strong will could hold down the urge to draw on the One Power, but she didn't think a will existed strong enough to hold down the urge to draw the True Power.

So an addiction, albeit, a semi-controllable one.

Nightstrike
11-06-2009, 02:28 AM
And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.

Channeling the TP near Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly. It was in some RJ quote.

AbbeyRoad
11-06-2009, 04:21 AM
Speaking of, do you think Rand's use of the True Power has to do with his segments of "do you not think that if I wished it, the Pattern would simply cause your heart to stop beating"? I could never quite tell if this was true or not; Cadsuane certainly thought so, and his eyes seemed more menacing and a dark shadow appeared over him both times he made reference to him somehow controlling the Pattern. Was he bluffing? Or is he somehow uber-ta'veren now because of his TP exposure?

Terez
11-06-2009, 04:48 AM
I don't think he's uber-ta'veren because of it. Just darker. His ta'veren effects were getting stronger before he used the True Power.

a dragonburned fool
11-06-2009, 07:25 AM
And I'd be much more confident about posting this if I had my copy of tDR handy, but doesn't the whole dimming of the lights bit happen at the very end, when Rand names the Dark One? In The Gathering Storm I took it as a sign that he's had the DO's attention pretty much constantly ever since he touched the True Power, almost as if he were screaming "Shai'tan!" from the rooftops every few minutes.
A very good comparison. Though there is no dimming of the lights seen. But something like the "warp in the air" seems to be there:
tGH, chapter 6
"Shai'tan is dead," he said harshly, and abruptly the room seemed to lurch. He grabbed his head as waves of dizziness sloshed through him.
"You fool! You pure, blind, idiotic fool! Naming the Dark One, bringing his attention down on you! Don't you have enough trouble?"
"He's dead," Rand muttered, rubbing his head. He swallowed. The dizziness was already fading. "All right, all right. Ba'alzamon, if you want. But he's dead; I saw him die, saw him burn."
"And I wasn't watching you when the Dark One's eye fell on you just now? Don't tell me you felt nothing, or I'll box your ears; I saw your face."Nynaeve saw something. Was there also darkness in it?

Maybe there is a problem: if she saw it then in tGH, wouldn't she recognize it now in tGS? And she seems to not understand what this blackness is. While holding or just touching TP is drawing DO's attention to the yelder. It cannot happen without DO's attention, because TP is his essence.

tDR, chapter 56
"Of course," Mat said smoothly. "Of course." Are they crazy? They want to chase after the Black Ajah and the Forsaken? "I only meant the hardest part is done. The Stone has fallen to the People of the Dragon, Rand has Callandor, and Shai'tan is dead." Moiraine's stare was so hard that he thought the Stone shook for a moment. Not very conclusive this one. Though the feeling like the stone shook might be not due to Moiraine's stare, but an "warp in the air" effect.

For one able to channel TP the attention might be more elaborated though. Including Blackness.

Blackness is something seen until now in Ishamael's actions, and also when Taim want to appear properly to an Aes Sedai.

Blackness doesn't need to be effect of channeling TP, but only touching it. Or just it's visualizzation of DO's eye on the TP-enabled channeler, since every single case of TP channeling must have been explicitely permitted by DO, therefore DO has to eye the TP-channeler first, maybe even before the touch of TP.

Bonzi77
11-06-2009, 07:35 AM
Rand holds saidin all the time because it's a pain in the ass to seize it, not because he's addicted. Also, he was only in the stedding for a few minutes. :rolleyes:

That's like saying I don't take my pain pills because I'm addicted, I take them because I broke my ankle. They're not mutually exclusive. It's been established that the OP is addictive, so if he's been holding it that much, regardless of why, pretty good chance he's an addict.

Terez
11-06-2009, 12:49 PM
As was said before, no more than any other channeler.

Tarcanus
11-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Nynaeve saw something. Was there also darkness in it?

Maybe there is a problem: if she saw it then in tGH, wouldn't she recognize it now in tGS? And she seems to not understand what this blackness is.


Umm, I'm pretty sure that you're saying something happened that didn't.

re-read the quote:
tGH, chapter 6
"Shai'tan is dead," he said harshly, and abruptly the room seemed to lurch. He grabbed his head as waves of dizziness sloshed through him.
"You fool! You pure, blind, idiotic fool! Naming the Dark One, bringing his attention down on you! Don't you have enough trouble?"
"He's dead," Rand muttered, rubbing his head. He swallowed. The dizziness was already fading. "All right, all right. Ba'alzamon, if you want. But he's dead; I saw him die, saw him burn."
"And I wasn't watching you when the Dark One's eye fell on you just now? Don't tell me you felt nothing, or I'll box your ears; I saw your face."



I'm pretty darn sure that the passage explicitly shows that when Rand named the DO, Rand got dizzy and stumbled a bit - there was no hint that darkness was involved at all. I'm sure if you suddenly got dizzy from no where and stumbled around, anyone near you would say, "I saw your face just now and I know something is wrong" without needing to see an aura of darkness.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Hereís how Iíve understood the relationship between Rand and the TP; it should explain the darkness following him around, the harsh eyes that are constantly mentioned in TGS, as well as the channelling sickness that heís been dealing with.

Imagine a circle with a line drawn through its centre, dividing it perfectly in half. The left side shall represent saidin, while the right will represent the TP. Now, I surmise that when Rand and Moridin crossed their balefires, it knocked this division out of alignment. Imagine that the line has rotated a few degrees, but the circle maintained its division. That is to say, that the fluke event of crossing balefire somehow granted Rand access to the TP in parallel to saidin. The use of this dark power might have exacerbated the channelling sickness initially caused by tainted saidin. In fact, I think that if we go back into the books, we will find that the references to the sickness pick up after this event.

When Rand was collared by Semi and was denied access to saidin, I think that only then was he able to sense his pre-existing access to the TP. Using the TP directly sped up the process of darkening the user, i.e. the darkness lurking after Rand which all the other characters seemed to notice. I think that it could also account for the harsh eyes. It has been noted that protracted use of the TP results in the saa and ultimately the flames of Baalzamon, but maybe Randís scary eyes are an event earlier precursor which everyone else simply attributed to his emotions being bottled up.

So yeah, there you go, thatís how Iíve understood it. The division between saidin and the TP is out of alignment for Rand.

Terez
11-10-2009, 03:15 PM
I think that if we go back into the books, we will find that the references to the sickness pick up after this event.
We have already found that the sickness didn't begin until The Path of Daggers (and, of course, the balefire incident was in the last chapter of A Crown of Swords). The taint doesn't cause sickness at all normally, even though it's disgusting. The channeler can sense the nastiness, but it doesn't cause nausea.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 03:20 PM
So, to grasp at the proverbial straws, that [I]could[I]reinforce my point.

Davian93
11-10-2009, 04:34 PM
So, to grasp at the proverbial straws, that [I]could[I]reinforce my point.

It doesn't hurt it any.

lurk
11-11-2009, 02:33 AM
Hmmm, could it be that Moridin was under orders of the DO to cross TP channeling with OP channeling wirh Rand? In order to get the following result:
Get some link to Rand in order to grant him access to the TP (because you can onl;y channel the TP with the permission of the Great Lord :) )
Rand gets tainted somehow that when he tries to grasp the OP he gets sick, so sick that in order to do any channeling he would have to resort to using the TP instead (he did not get sick grasping the TP!)
Thus speeding up the control the Great Lord wants over him?

unfortunately Moridin got a side effect in the bargain he now feels stuff Rand experiences, like the losing of the hand.
must be awkward btw to suddenly feel stuff without any particular reason :p

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 05:08 AM
A problem with that theory is that Moridin then would have figured out where he got the problem from, and that it had been planned by the DO.
But he does not seem to understand that at all, instead worrying about it. He wouldn't worry if it were clearly a part of the ineffable plan for ultimate victory, I think.

lurk
11-11-2009, 09:05 AM
BF of sammael was in COS, in prologue POD Moridin is playing Sharah and commenting that Rand is moving to his wishes. This implies (yes implies only :)) that moridin has done something to control Rand. But on the other hand there is a lot going on that "pushes" Rand to cetrain activities so it is no proof.

I have trouble seeing the crossing of BF streams as an accident, not with this result coming from it. I tend to believe it was intended.

Terez
11-11-2009, 09:10 AM
BF of sammael was in COS
They balefired Mashadar, not Sammael. Sammael was eaten by Mashadar.

Just sayin.

The scene itself seems to speak strongly against the balefire incident being planned in any way. I think that Moridin was speaking of Rand's move against the Seanchan, involving the Asha'man.

lurk
11-11-2009, 09:14 AM
yeah sorry indeed the BF of mashadar. But still moridin was there with a goal.

Thinking about that, He must have been into this with Sammael. Maybe the trick was to lure Rand into following Sammael to this location where Moridin would have a reason to channel being close enough to Rand to have the streams cross.

I do not believe Moridin was there by coincidence. No way! he had a goal

Ozymandias
11-11-2009, 09:19 AM
Don't see why the whole ecstasy bit has to be anything other than the Source being touched. In the early and mid books, it was almost inevitable that RJ mentioned how the filth was disgusting but Rand still loved feeling alive, how everything was sharper and clearer.

Just because they're not driving that home anymore doesn't mean it still doesn't apply. It would just be repetitive to keep saying it.

And I think we can be confident Rand hasn't touched the TP. He's very clear that he's not touching it OR the Choedan Kal, and he's an experienced enough channeler that I think he'd know the difference between the OP and the TP. Especially since the differences seem to be so pronounced.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 09:19 AM
Moridin was there to watch what would happen. Considering the fact that he's gonna have to fight Rand (again) he does have a reason to want to observe his future opponents battle tactics, and learn from them. Considering the outcome the previous times they fought, such learning would be a good idea.

Assuming that it was indeed the plan to have balefire streams cross, what would Moridin have done if Rand hadn't used balefire at all?
If the two of them hadn't been surprised by Mashadar, then Rand (and presumably Moridin) wouldn't have used it when it happened. If that silly Aiel hadn't shown up when she did, Rand wouldn't have killed her with balefire either. Then it was possible that Rand would have watched Sammael being eaten by Mashadar, with no balefire use at all.

Terez
11-11-2009, 09:22 AM
I think he was there to make sure Rand killed Sammael. After all, earlier in the book Sammael had bragged to Graendal about having been promised Nae'blis, and Moridin was spying on them at the time. From his thoughts, it seems clear Moridin believed that was a real possibility. So of course he wanted Sammael out of the game.

lurk
11-11-2009, 09:23 AM
Moridin was there to watch what would happen. Considering the fact that he's gonna have to fight Rand (again) he does have a reason to want to observe his future opponents battle tactics, and learn from them. Considering the outcome the previous times they fought, such learning would be a good idea.

Assuming that it was indeed the plan to have balefire streams cross, what would Moridin have done if Rand hadn't used balefire at all?
If the two of them hadn't been surprised by Mashadar, then Rand (and presumably Moridin) wouldn't have used it when it happened. If that silly Aiel hadn't shown up when she did, Rand wouldn't have killed her with balefire either. Then it was possible that Rand would have watched Sammael being eaten by Mashadar, with no balefire use at all.

How did Moridin know where to go, Sammael made a gateway and Rand was able to follow from the residue. Moridin would have to have been close to sammael to be able to follow too. That would be very chancy because he would be in the middle of a full OP conflict with Ashaman channeling etc. I am still convinced Moridin knew where Sammael and Rand would end up. So he must have been in on it somehow.

EDIT
Maybe it need not be BF at all just weaves crossing, That would certainly happen in a conflict between channelers

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 09:25 AM
Sammael had been setting it up beforehand.
When Rand went to Illian, he had to wait a time. During that time, Sammael was driving Trollocs into Shadar Logoth, and setting up all his other traps (whatever they were). Plenty of time for Moridin to figure out that something was up, and to stay to see what was going to happen next.

lurk
11-11-2009, 09:26 AM
I think he was there to make sure Rand killed Sammael. After all, earlier in the book Sammael had bragged to Graendal about having been promised Nae'blis, and Moridin was spying on them at the time. From his thoughts, it seems clear Moridin believed that was a real possibility. So of course he wanted Sammael out of the game.

Same answer, he would have been in the middle of the OP conflict, very chancy. Better to wait where they would end up traveling too

lurk
11-11-2009, 09:36 AM
Sammael had been setting it up beforehand.
When Rand went to Illian, he had to wait a time. During that time, Sammael was driving Trollocs into Shadar Logoth, and setting up all his other traps (whatever they were). Plenty of time for Moridin to figure out that something was up, and to stay to see what was going to happen next.
could be

AbbeyRoad
11-11-2009, 01:51 PM
Yeah, but he seemed to imply in several passages that he could control the pattern and cause someone's heart to stop just because he willed it. That would go beyond his effects "getting stronger" into ridiculous proportions. We've never even heard of anything like this until this book, and so I was wondering:

A) if it was even true. Rand could theoretically be talking out of his ass (although a shadow came around him both times and his aura became more menacing.

B) if it is true, is it directly caused by his exposure to the True Power? We don't see say anything like that until 5 minutes after he balefired Semirhage with the True Power.

Bonzi77
11-11-2009, 02:20 PM
I think it was a case of megalomania or Rand's part rather than something that could actually happen. Or, depending on how far gone you think Rand was, maybe he would kill her with the True Power and no one would know how it happened.

Blue Nine
11-11-2009, 03:04 PM
I think that the most simple answer is probably the most likely in this instance. Rand was simply trying to intimidate Cadsuane.

On a side note, did anyone else pick up on how philosophical a question that was? If he willed it, would the Pattern make her heart stop? This isn't the kind of question Rand has been pondering through the preceding books. Might this be more of Moridin/Ishamael coming through and being portrayed by Rand?

fdsaf3
11-11-2009, 04:08 PM
As for Rand somehow balefiring the Dark One with the TP, or sealing him back in the Bore, I don't see it happening. The primary reason is that the Dark One is the source of the TP - you can't access or channel it without his consent. I doubt he'd be like, "Oh sure, use my own power to eradicate me and/or seal me in the Bore again."

Second, RJ said somewhere that the amount of the One Power it would take to balefire the Dark One would destroy the world. Even if Rand were able to use the TP, I would assume that to destroy the Dark One he'd have to use enough to destroy the world.

Greyman
11-15-2009, 12:41 AM
And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.Well, blending saidar and saidin with shaitan could be one interpretation of: "He shall weild a blade of light, and the three shall become one."

Trying would probably kill him, and where could he find a strong enough woman to help him do it, I wonder?

Neilbert
11-15-2009, 01:50 AM
I got the impression that Rand was not bluffing. I think he is managing some level of control over his ta'verenness. Mat can control his dicing luck, and make himself lose; it seems like Rand is doing something similar. Cadsuane found out that Rand's ta'veren effects have all been negative in Bandar Eban. Rand made the grain go bad. Rand made the balconies fall. He's been having an emo fit with his ta'veren super powers instead of using them like Mat.

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 12:44 PM
Funny enough, Rand doesn't seem to mind threatening to kill people anymore. He used to. Did I hear he even threatened Tuon, a woman?

How times change. :eek:

Jokeslayer
11-15-2009, 01:09 PM
Second, RJ said somewhere that the amount of the One Power it would take to balefire the Dark One would destroy the world.

Assuming this is accurate, I don't think it's just a comparison.

AbbeyRoad
11-15-2009, 02:26 PM
I got the impression that Rand was not bluffing. I think he is managing some level of control over his ta'verenness. Mat can control his dicing luck, and make himself lose; it seems like Rand is doing something similar. Cadsuane found out that Rand's ta'veren effects have all been negative in Bandar Eban. Rand made the grain go bad. Rand made the balconies fall. He's been having an emo fit with his ta'veren super powers instead of using them like Mat.
Me, too. Something in the way Cadsuane thought to herself that she knew if she did not leave, she would die made it seem real. Also, the menacing aura seemed to take over when he said it both times.

Do you attribute this to the TP, or just Rand growing darker in general?

Davian93
11-15-2009, 02:50 PM
Me, too. Something in the way Cadsuane thought to herself that she knew if she did not leave, she would die made it seem real. Also, the menacing aura seemed to take over when he said it both times.

Do you attribute this to the TP, or just Rand growing darker in general?

I think it was the TP taint personally. It seemed to be affecting all his actions from the time he used it to free himself.

Ozymandias
11-15-2009, 03:06 PM
I got the impression that Rand was not bluffing. I think he is managing some level of control over his ta'verenness. Mat can control his dicing luck, and make himself lose; it seems like Rand is doing something similar. Cadsuane found out that Rand's ta'veren effects have all been negative in Bandar Eban. Rand made the grain go bad. Rand made the balconies fall. He's been having an emo fit with his ta'veren super powers instead of using them like Mat.

Nah he was definitely bluffing. He asks it as a question to make her think it through, because she called him out on the killing women bit. I think he was just trying to highlight how meaningless she was in comparison to him.

And Mat can't control his luck. He just says, sometimes the best throw is a losing throw. Therefore, he'd be lucky to lose.

As for his ta'verenness being bad now, thats not necessarily true. I was of the opinion the grain failing was the DO's touch; god knows half the last few books have been detailing how everything spoils easily. And the balconies is one isolated event.

Terez
11-15-2009, 03:32 PM
BS has confirmed that the food spoilage is Rand, not the Dark One.

AbbeyRoad
11-15-2009, 04:21 PM
Rand channels a lot more than most channelers.

A. He is as strong as anyone, and therefore channels a higher volume of the OP

B. He uses extremely powerful sa'angrael, the like of which really no one in the series uses (minus Nynaeve during the cleansing), which further increases the volume he channels

C. He holds the power much more often than most, and channels as often as just about anyone we've seen

All of this points to the fact that Rand is probably a bit more addicted to the OP than most, not that that has any major implications in the novels.

AbbeyRoad
11-15-2009, 04:27 PM
Perhaps one of Callandor's flaws is that it can amplify TP as well as Saidin. Wouldn't THAT be fun to watch.
This would make perfect sense. Especially since we know that Callandor enhanced the taint on saidin, which would translate perfectly into enhancing the Dark One's essence (which theoretically the taint is a manifestation of as well).

BS has confirmed that the food spoilage is Rand, not the Dark One.
Something to do with the health of the land literally being paralleled to the health of the Dragon was the context of the quote, no? Pretty interesting implications...

Terez
11-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Yeah, we've known about that quote forever (the land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon one with the land). Just now got confirmation on it though, as far as it relates to food spoilage.

Lord Bloodpath
11-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Isn't it accepted that Ta'veren twists probability in line with the will of the Pattern? When Rand threatened Cadsuane, I don't think he himself knew whether or not he had that kind of power. I also think he had no idea what the TP was, could do, or the side effects of it. All he knew was that it made LTT unhappy, but so many things did that that Rand was used to ignoring him by now.

I absolutely think that Rand thinks that the only reason he was able to escape from the DB was because the Pattern bends to his will now and that's all the TP access was. I think that the shadow/warp in the air happens whenever he holds the TP and that when he does, it kicks his Ta'verenness into overdrive but directly in line with his will as opposed to in line with the will of the Pattern. Plus, every time he touches it, it corrupts his Ta'verenness more such that after the failed meeting with Tuon and return to Bandar Eben, he causes all the grain to spoil without realizing it. If it had just been the DO's touch, it would have been random parts or shipments instead of all of it. But BS confirms it if we still had doubts.

Terez
11-15-2009, 04:54 PM
I think he knows quite well that his True Power access had to do with the link with Moridin. He saw his face as he accessed it, and said 'It's HIM.' There's no reason to think he believed it had anything to do with being ta'veren, at least directly.

AbbeyRoad
11-15-2009, 05:53 PM
Wouldn't LT's memories let Rand know where the TP comes from, now that he's integrated and has all (or most) of the memories? I know that LT himself never channeled it, but from the voice, it seems pretty obvious that LT knows what it is and where it comes from.

ZaderGru
11-15-2009, 06:02 PM
I think he knows quite well that his True Power access had to do with the link with Moridin. He saw his face as he accessed it, and said 'It's HIM.' There's no reason to think he believed it had anything to do with being ta'veren, at least directly.

Even without the link Rand may have been able to access The TP.


A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

The DO already knows what would have happened if "The Dragon" was allowed to kill Min, and I believe it would have been an instant loss for the DO.
I am surprised Semi did not realise this as well, but she might have still been out of sorts from being captured.

Terez
11-15-2009, 06:08 PM
Wouldn't LT's memories let Rand know where the TP comes from, now that he's integrated and has all (or most) of the memories? I know that LT himself never channeled it, but from the voice, it seems pretty obvious that LT knows what it is and where it comes from.
Rand himself remembered what it was in Knife of Dreams:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I canít think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his fatherís farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emondís Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

Oh, Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.

Terez
11-15-2009, 06:09 PM
Even without the link Rand may have been able to access The TP.
Maybe, but we're talking about Rand knowing that his access came through the link.

The DO already knows what would have happened if "The Dragon" was allowed to kill Min, and I believe it would have been an instant loss for the DO.
Why would it have been an instant loss for him?

nameless
11-15-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm not convinced the TP access was a result of the link to Moridin. I'm not convinced it wasn't, either, but look at the order of events in that scene.

1) Rand is denied access to saidin by the domination band.
2) Rand hits rock bottom emotionally as he is forced to assault Min.
3) Rand becomes aware of the True Power.
4) Rand reaches for the True Power.
5) Rand becomes aware of Moridin's face.
6) Rand connects to the True Power.

This could be a case of misdirection through post hoc ergo propter hoc but it seems that Rand's emotional state is what allowed him to access TP and the heightened awareness of Moridin through the link was a result of that access rather than the cause.

Terez
11-15-2009, 07:24 PM
Well, we know that he at the very least had to have the Dark One's permission to use it, so it's not just a result of his emotional state. I think that the Dark One was aware of him using it, and approved, but I think that the link was what allowed Rand to sense it.

In any case, again, we're not discussing how he was able to access it, but why he thinks he was able to access it.

Frenzy
11-16-2009, 01:15 AM
The TP requires the DO's permission. Given.

The TP has been denied to everyone except Moridin. Given.

So how did Rand channel the TP? Do you honestly think the DO allowed it? A more plausible explanation is that Moridin pulled the TP from the DO (the only person currently granted that permission), and Rand somehow snatched it from/through Moridin. Moridin acted as the middle-man, no pun intended. Perhaps that degree of separation is enough to shield the weavings of the TP from the DO, so that Rand can use it to do whatever he wants without the DO knowing about it.

Throw Callandor into that mix, and things can REALLY get interesting.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 01:47 AM
If the link with Moridin is Rand's access to the TP, then in order to deny Rand the DO must deny Moridin as well. If the DO isn't willing to cut off his Nae'blis, then Rand will continue to have access to the TP, regardless of that whole "you wanting and the DO letting you" stuff.

Terez
11-16-2009, 02:14 AM
The TP requires the DO's permission. Given.

The TP has been denied to everyone except Moridin. Given.

So how did Rand channel the TP? Do you honestly think the DO allowed it?
Well, I was under the impression that BS further emphasized that the Dark One's permission is required, in the last few days (working on filling out the interview database tonight, and I'm not done yet but I've already come across one quote where BS reiterates this). I'm guessing that the Dark One believes it is advantageous for him, for Rand to use it, perhaps because it saddles Rand with that shadow he's carrying around now. Dark influence or something.

I do agree that Moridin was the middle man though.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 07:07 AM
I think that the DO (i.e SH) went into that plan with two possible outcomes and that both were victories.

1. Rand is bound by Semi, kills Min and all his friends and is then brought to Shayol Ghul as a prisoner (who is quite mad with grief BTW).

2. Rand uses the TP, kills Semi (who is punished for her failure/disobaying of orders) and is forever tainted by his use of the DO's power.

Both were acceptable outcomes and both were clear victories for Rand. Unless, of course, you don't think Rand's actions were completely tainted from his usage of the TP on.

DahLliA
11-16-2009, 11:16 AM
I think that the DO (i.e SH) went into that plan with two possible outcomes and that both were victories.

1. Rand is bound by Semi, kills Min and all his friends and is then brought to Shayol Ghul as a prisoner (who is quite mad with grief BTW).

2. Rand uses the TP, kills Semi (who is punished for her failure/disobaying of orders) and is forever tainted by his use of the DO's power.

Both were acceptable outcomes and both were clear victories for Rand. Unless, of course, you don't think Rand's actions were completely tainted from his usage of the TP on.

I agree with the whole thing being planned from the DO's side. SH releasing semi, semi stealing the male a'dam from caddy which is quite likely to piss off rand(and it did). semi then puts rand in a box(chains him) and forces him to kill min. and then he just happens to find the TP to get free. pretty sure the DO planned it all and dangled the TP in front of rand the moment he was ready to accept any power to stop what was happening.

I also think the DO influenced rand's decision to become harder. which led to him banishing caddy(who's still important in preparing rand for the last battle) and scaring everyone around him even more so they'd stop helping him. it also led to tuon refusing a truce(pretty sure she would have accepted it if rand didn't scare the crap out of her with his dark aura and cold eyes).

so all in all. even with semi BF'd it was still a huge victory for the DO making rand even more(or would that be less) emo

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Frankly, I don't think that the DO planned it in quite that much detail. Killing Min was a spur of the moment decision, brought on by the knife that she threw.
Without that, Semirhage might have done as she had been told to do, and brought Rand chained into the Pit of Doom. Which would probably have been all right, as far as the DO was concerned.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 02:48 PM
Frankly, I don't think that the DO planned it in quite that much detail. Killing Min was a spur of the moment decision, brought on by the knife that she threw.
Without that, Semirhage might have done as she had been told to do, and brought Rand chained into the Pit of Doom. Which would probably have been all right, as far as the DO was concerned.I agree. I'm personally not convinced that the DO planned for Rand magically being able to get the True Power because of threat due to Min which just happened to have been brought on by Semi happening to get supermad at Min for throwing a knife at her. Too convoluted. I think the DO just wanted Rand in chains, and any other pain caused is just bonus.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 03:25 PM
Well, I was under the impression that BS further emphasized that the Dark One's permission is required, in the last few days (working on filling out the interview database tonight, and I'm not done yet but I've already come across one quote where BS reiterates this).
Just looking through the interviews page (kudos, by the way), and I found a relevant quote (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75180#post75180).
The True Power is *usually* not able to be used without the DO's consent. Semirhage certainly thought that the DO intentionally betrayed her.
Of course, as I mentioned there, I think this adds quite a bit of fuel to the "oops, I thought I was giving permission to Moridin!" faction. :)

Terez
11-16-2009, 05:01 PM
Yeah, I thought about that last night as I was putting it in...which was after I made that post - that post was the straw that broke the camel's back and made me finally get around to updating the database, even though I really didn't have time....and by the time I was done I was too braindead to remember the question that inspired me in the first place....

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 05:11 PM
So - Going down the route of Rand accessing the TP through Moridin, is it safe to assume that Moridin knows or is aware of what Rand did with it?

Terez
11-16-2009, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I'd say so. I'm still not convinced it wasn't planned, by Moridin and Shaidar Haran together. It goes along too well with Moridin's orders to Graendal.

crue
11-16-2009, 05:32 PM
Of course it was planned. It is unreasonable that SH would show up, free Semi, and then leave her alone to do an incredibly important task, hoping she would get it right. She has already failed once, she probably isn't going to succeed this time.

If the DO wanted Rand captured, Rand would have been captured.

By the way, has anyone seen a channeler being able to sense Shaidar Haran? He's shadowspawn, so any channeler should be able to sense him. If not, what a great tool he would have been to help capture Rand.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 05:38 PM
If the DO wanted Rand captured, Rand would have been captured.

I disagree. Moridin/Ishy has been trying to capture Rand for a while now.
So has Lanfear, Mesaana, and now Semirhage.

If Semi had left Min tied up in air and whisked Rand through a gateway to Shayol Ghul things would have been peachy and all would have been forgiven between her and the DO.

But no, she had to have one last play with her dollies and got herself toasted thanks to her inability to suppress her own vices/impulses.

I personally see the mission, her Last Chance as an unexpected failure.

Either that - or Shaidar Haran is in league with Demandred behind Moridin's back.

crue
11-16-2009, 06:06 PM
If she was meant to succeed, Shaidar Haran would have stuck around and helped. Based on her past failures, if capturing Rand was important, she would have had help from SH. I mean, Shaidar Haran was right there. Why on Earth would he leave such an important task in the hands of someone who failed so miserably before?

The whole thing seems like a setup to emotionally hurt Rand, get Rand to channel the TP.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 06:11 PM
The whole thing seems like a setup to emotionally hurt Rand, get Rand to channel the TP.The DO isn't omniscient or omnipotent. There's no way he could have known for sure that Semi would go berzerk on Min and there was no real way to know that Rand would think to try to channel something other than the OP. There's nothing to indicate that Rand would have had any clue about how to access the TP...

I mean, sure you can make an argument out of "it seems like a setup" but I'm just not convinced that the DO could plan that out to that minute a detail.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 06:17 PM
If she was meant to succeed, Shaidar Haran would have stuck around and helped. Based on her past failures, if capturing Rand was important, she would have had help from SH. I mean, Shaidar Haran was right there. Why on Earth would he leave such an important task in the hands of someone who failed so miserably before?

The whole thing seems like a setup to emotionally hurt Rand, get Rand to channel the TP.

Why do you think SH would have hung around to help?
Where is the precedent for him having done anything like that?
We DO know that he is weaker the longer he stays away from Shayol Ghul, we have NO evidence of him "severing the tie" and so far the only people we have seen him interact with are the Chosen and possibly some darkfriends.

And has been pointed out earlier in the thread, if not for Min gettin a cut on Semirhage when she threw her knife then perhaps she would have been ignored and Rand whisked away to rot in some vacuole somewhere or dipped in the water at Thakan'dar.

But: following from your train of thought, if the point of the mission was to have Rand channel the TP - does that make Graendal also expendable? She was told that as well as making sure Arad Doman stayed at war that Rand had to know pain and anguish, preferably by harming those dear to him. Given how relatively successful Graendal had been up to that point and that Moridin was 'rewarding' Graendal by embarassing Mesaana and Demandred in front of her it does seem a little wasteful on the part of the DO.

crue
11-16-2009, 06:19 PM
Its not much to plan out.

Let's say your goal is to hurt Rand. What can you do?

Is there a captured Forsaken at his camp? Yes. OK, can you free her? Yes. Can you get her the domination band? Yes.

Great. Now, what will she probably do?
Two options:
Capture Rand.
Embrace her sadist personality, and hurt Rand.
Outcome one is good. Rand is captured. Outcome two is good, Rand gets hurt. Which is more likely? Based on Semi's personality and history, I think we can all agree Option 2 is more likely.

So.... Semi goes berserk on Rand.

Do you want Rand dead? No. Offer him at his most desperate moment another power source that will corrupt him. He'll take it.

Like I said, it seems like a pretty good plan by the DO to have one of two things happen: Break Rand and have him either channel the TP;
or get captured and brought to SG.

crue
11-16-2009, 06:25 PM
Why do you think SH would have hung around to help?


Semi can't be trusted. She failed once before.
If it's important, don't trust someone who can't be trusted.


Of course, maybe I am mis-remembering something. I haven't read that part of the book in a week or two and the details are a little fuzzy.

I seem to recall that SH can stop others from channeling the OP. Is this true only for darkfriends or can he stop anyone nearby from channeling? If he can, it makes the most amount of sense for him to help capture Rand. If not, well, then Semi is just on her own. Again.

If capturing Rand was the goal.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 06:25 PM
So.... Semi goes berserk on Rand.She did not go berserk on him, she went after Min. Which, if she had succeeded in killing her, would have totally fit in with "hurt him by hurting his friends". Giving him TP in that instance isn't exactly optimal, as you lose a person who until now has not messed up but once, you lose your chance at capturing the dragon reborn (which is ultimately a much better goal than getting him to channel TP considering it would more likely result in dark winning), you also destroy your chance of having him chained under your own power...all to get him to channel TP in a rather long shot of a guess that we aren't totally sure if the DO could have guessed about in the first place. We don't even know if Rand accessed the TP on his own or through Moridin (much more likely through Moridin), and we don't know if the DO knows about the Moridin and Rand link.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 06:27 PM
I'm starting to get antsy about starting factions. ;)

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 06:29 PM
We don't even know if Rand accessed the TP on his own or through Moridin (much more likely through Moridin), and we don't know if the DO knows about the Moridin and Rand link.
Given what Moridin said during he and Rand's little nightcap moment, I'd say he has kept it hidden from the DO.
If the DO could exploit it somehow to get the Dragon but use up Moridin in the process I think he'd take it.
I don't think Moridin would so fanatical about it though.

crue
11-16-2009, 06:29 PM
You're probably right.

I just want the Shadow to have some good plans. I want to see a little manipulation and planning and scheming on larger scales.

A lot of the Shadow has been so inept in the past, and I was hoping for more.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 06:30 PM
You're probably right.

I just want the Shadow to have some good plans. I want to see a little manipulation and planning and scheming on larger scales.

A lot of the Shadow has been so inept in the past, and I was hoping for more.

You have to look at why they're inept though.
THERE'S NO I IN TEAM!

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 06:31 PM
I seem to recall that SH can stop others from channeling the OP. Is this true only for darkfriends or can he stop anyone nearby from channeling?



That's a huge power if it's unlimited. I would think there has to be some check on it.

crue
11-16-2009, 06:33 PM
You have to look at why they're inept though.
THERE'S NO I IN TEAM!

Which is why it would be sweet to see the DO calling the shots instead of the individual Forsaken.

I mean, of all the players right now, none of them have a memory of prior third ages. The DO does. He should know the best course of action to get free.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 06:40 PM
That's a huge power if it's unlimited. I would think there has to be some check on it.
I personally think it's something to do with the Oaths a channeler swears when they join the Shadow.

I can't remember where I ever read this (was a few years back), and it may be just a theory someone came up with that's stuck in my head.
Supposedly the big deal with the Eye of the World and Be'lal and Aginor wanting it for themselves was because through the Oaths they swore and/or the protection they received from the taint - the DO was aware of their actions every time they channeled. And so the Forsaken wanted a well of clean saidan so that they could operate outside of the DO's radar.

Now - in the dialogue they all had just in their meeting where Moridin announced Rand's intentions to cleanse saidin, Graendal's comments made me think that this is NOT the case for female channelers.

But - Rand's rant at Lanfear just after he cuts Asmo's black cords where he says that they let the DO attach himself to them probably gives us the key as to why SH has such control over their ability to touch the Source. He is the Hand of the Dark after all.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 06:46 PM
I mean, of all the players right now, none of them have a memory of prior third ages. The DO does. He should know the best course of action to get free.

The DO one has his memories and his more "direct" effects on the world, the Pattern has it's simulations (Mirror worlds). Neither are omniscient, but it remains to see which is ultimately more powerful. So far, the Pattern is winning...

TDR, A World of Dreams:
"That is only part of what a Dreamer does, child. Perhaps the least part. Anaiya believes in bringing girls along too slowly, in my opinion. Look here." With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax. "Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way."
"The worlds reached by the Portal Stones," Egwene said, to show she had listened to Verin's lectures on the journey from Toman Head. What could this possibly have to do with whether or not she was a Dreamer?
"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds Ė even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed Ė lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 02:37 AM
I suspect that when Rand and Shaidar Haran meet, that will be the Last Battle. Just as Rand has to get things done before he is in the best possible position, so does the DO. Therefor, he wouldn't risk prematurely facing the Dragon, since that would result in an unwanted outcome.

I am aware that Moridin thinks he will be the Shadow's champion. But he is simply deluded. That's what he was chosen to be, after all.

DahLliA
11-17-2009, 10:27 AM
just two points about the DO planning the whole semi thing. rand's fear of "boxes" is relatively well known(I'm willing to be the BA in rand's camp know about it) so even if semi hadn't forced him to hurt min it could very well have ended the same way.

and even if rand did grab the TP through moridin, that doesn't really prove it wasn't planned. that depends on whether the DO can or can't stop rand from using it when moridin has access or not.

if I weren't so lazy I'd make a faction of this :p

Devlin1969
11-17-2009, 12:26 PM
I keep thinking back to what Moridin said in the prologue about Semi, and then what he said to Rand about their connection in the fireside chat.

Firstly one thing I believe is that SH does not take orders from Moridin, I believe he takes his orders directly from the DO! Now if someone has a reference to show me where Moridin has ordered SH that would be great, but from my memory the few times we have seen them interact, it was in conjunction. (i.e. Mog's little trip to SG when she gets mindtraped)

Now my thoughts on the Semi,TP,Moridin,DO -
SH goes to free Semi on the DO's orders. He orders Semi to bring Rand to SG. Now after she gets the male a'dam on Rand, I agree that she probably would have left Min alone if Min had not cut her with the knife.
That being said, Semi is now reacting in an emotional way, because of Min cutting her, Not a Fully rational way. If she was being rational she would have struck Min down and turned around and walked through a gateway to SG with Rand like she was supposed to.
Anyways, She has Rand set on killing Min because it gets Min back for cutting her and it is Torture to Rand. Torture is her thing after all.
Now back to Moridin, based on his "hand flexing" in the prologue and then his comments to Rand about the link in the "fireside chat" I think it is safe to assume that Moridin can defiantly feel it when Semi is torturing Rand.

Now based on Moridin's personal feelings he has expressed about Semi, if Moridin knew it was her torturing Rand he would have No issue with Rand killing her. But regardless of whether he knew who it was if Moridin had the ability to control his link with Rand it opens up a whole debate about whether he would give Rand access to the TP. (I do not believe he understands or can control the bond in this way)

My initial thought is based on Moridin's comments that he does not understand the link any better then Rand.
I don't think Moridin has any control over the link and I don't think he could stop Rand from pulling the TP through the link.
I hope in ToM we will get a POV from Moridin thinking about what happened, as though he might have been able to feel Rand pulling the TP through him, but I don't think the DO or Moridin had any control over what Rand did!

I believe that Rand definitely could only access the TP because of his connection with Moridin and I don't believe that the DO or Moridin would have any idea that it could or would happen. I think what ever plan was in place went to shit as soon as Min cut Semi and she lost emotional control and basically went in a different direction then what she was ordered to do.

Short version;
*I don't think there is any conspiracy theory here.
*I think the DO used the oportunity to have Semi uses the male a'dam to bring Rand to SG.
*I think it failed because Semi had been humiliated by the Aes Sedai, and when Min cut her she lost control and wanted to kill Min, torturing Rand while she did it, and then Kill all of the Aes Sedai on her way out.
*I think Karma killed Semi!
*I think Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin without any foreknowledge or assistance from the DO or Moridin.
*I think it was the extreme situation that he was in that pushed him to a spot in his mind where he could feel the TP through the bond.
*I also think that Moridin felt it when Rand did it, and I can just picture him sitting next to his cold fire and all of a sudden him jumping up going, "oh shit" to the feeling of torture and then "double oh shit" when Rand pulls the TP through him!
[End Giant Ramble]

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 12:59 PM
Devlin, I agree with all of your points. Also, howdy. :)

Davian93
11-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Devlin, I agree with all of your points. Also, howdy. :)

For a second, I read that as "Davian", not "Devlin". I got all excited but it was short-lived as I realized it couldn't possibly be true. Then I got sad.

I disagree with some of Devlin's thoughts here as I think there was a concerted plan to make Rand use the TP...though it is good sound reasoning overall.

Welcome to TL.

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 01:10 PM
For a second, I read that as "Davian", not "Devlin". I got all excited but it was short-lived as I realized it couldn't possibly be true. Then I got sad.
Buck up, lil' buddy! If someday you make a good and logical argument, maybe I'll agree with you too. ;)

Davian93
11-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Buck up, lil' buddy! If someday you make a good and logical argument, maybe I'll agree with you too. ;)

It hasn't happened in 6 years...I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Mat is Better
11-17-2009, 01:36 PM
I agree with Devlin. I don't see a conspiracy because the DO had Rand in his clutches. He could have controlled him with the male a'dam or he could simply have used compulsion on him. Basically he owned Rand. The thing that screwed it all up was that Rand did use the TP and blew them all to hell. That seems like over-complicating things if it was planned by either Moridin or the DO.

My brother read the book before I did. He said that the DO gave the power to Rand. As soon as I read that part, I was totally convinced that the TP came through his connection with Moridin and was unintentional. I told him as much and I think he agrees now.

JSUCamel
11-17-2009, 01:43 PM
It hasn't happened in 6 years...I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I'll agree with that ;)

Davian93
11-17-2009, 01:45 PM
I'll agree with that ;)

LOL...

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 02:09 PM
It hasn't happened in 6 years...I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Don't worry, logic doesn't come easily to everyone. :p

Brita
11-17-2009, 03:02 PM
*I also think that Moridin felt it when Rand did it, and I can just picture him sitting next to his cold fire and all of a sudden him jumping up going, "oh shit" to the feeling of torture and then "double oh shit" when Rand pulls the TP through him!

That is a very amusing idea. How do forsaken swear anyway? I'm fairly certain, completely off the top of my head, they don't say "Light!" What do they say? Or are they too cool to swear :cool:

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 03:10 PM
"Belgium!"

Terez
11-17-2009, 04:03 PM
That is a very amusing idea. How do forsaken swear anyway? I'm fairly certain, completely off the top of my head, they don't say "Light!" What do they say? Or are they too cool to swear :cool:
Tsag! Sammael used that one.

Terez
11-19-2009, 02:58 PM
It has now been confirmed that Rand did NOT have the Dark One's permission to channel the True Power:

Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58170#74180)

Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?
A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

Enigma
11-19-2009, 03:00 PM
We know that the DO has been getting a more firm control over the forsaken via Moridin and SH in recent books. We also know that Messana's punishment was made publically known, at least among the forsaken and Semirhage was aware of what happened to her when she disobeyed orders.
Lastly when SH shows up in TGS I don't know what everyone else though but to me his orders were "you are on your last lifeline. DO NOT MESS UP AGAIN".

Now if you add all that together what Moridin/SH or the DO probably expected Semirhage to do was exactly what she was told to do - capture Rand and bring him to SG. Yes her plesures are well known among to DO ranks but after explicit orders from SH and earlier Moridin added to the earlier example of Messsana I think its perfectly reasonable to believe that Shadow management expected Semirhage to restrain her instincts and do what she was told.

For those who say Semirhage can't restain her impulses, she has spent the last 2 years right beside Tuon and aside from one bit of fun she kept control over herself. That was before Moridin has started to make it very clear that independant hobies that interfeared with the mission would not be tolerated and that even forsaken could be punished.

As others have said the DO is not all knowing. I think that Moridin though she would obey. If you believe that they knew she was unstable and might do her own thing, then why send her after Rand at all she could kill him. If they believe she is unstable enough to defy her orders (all be in in a way they want) they must realise that unstable people can be very hard to predict and anything could happen.

Lastly I think it was asked why SH did not stick around to help. I don't have the exact quote but I believe BS said in one of his interviews that swearing to the DO removes a lot of protection from the DO. He said that this made what Verin did even more remarkable. I took it to mean that SH can easily block forsaken/darkfriend channelers almosts as if swearing to the DO is like handing over a remote cotrol to your ability but SH might have a lot harder a time with non darkfriends who he cannot easily override.

Neilbert
11-19-2009, 03:01 PM
Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?
A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

Your sentence is missing a comma.

No, even with commas it's still meaningless...

Going by the quote, either it was not via the link to Moridin, or Rand did not have the Dark One's permission which makes channeling the True Power impossible..

Neilbert
11-19-2009, 03:06 PM
For those who say Semirhage can't restain her impulses, she has spent the last 2 years right beside Tuon and aside from one bit of fun she kept control over herself.

Did she really though? IIRC she claimed she had tested the Domination Band, that's fun for her. She got Cabrina, she got to strap Tuon, and that's just the stuff we know about. I highly doubt she wasn't torturing people on the side just as often as she could.

I don't have the exact quote but I believe BS said in one of his interviews that swearing to the DO removes a lot of protection from the DO. He said that this made what Verin did even more remarkable. I took it to mean that SH can easily block forsaken/darkfriend channelers almosts as if swearing to the DO is like handing over a remote cotrol to your ability but SH might have a lot harder a time with non darkfriends who he cannot easily override.

I thought the phrasing was interesting. People have natural protections from the Dark One that can be given up. I wonder what the extent of these protections are?

Enigma
11-19-2009, 03:25 PM
Did she really though? IIRC she claimed she had tested the Domination Band, that's fun for her. She got Cabrina, she got to strap Tuon, and that's just the stuff we know about. I highly doubt she wasn't torturing people on the side just as often as she could.

We know from Tuon's own pov that she only strapped Tuon once. Cabrina was controled sadism. She had fun with the warder but given how much about Cabrina the forsken with Egwene knew Semirhage got the job done.

What I was trying to get at whas that for two years she stayed close to Tuon without enjoying herself to the degree of endangering her mission. Given the "do not screw up again" order what she should have done and what I think Moridin/the DO expected her to do was capture Rand then take him straight away to SG without messing around with Min or any of Rand's other followers.



I thought the phrasing was interesting. People have natural protections from the Dark One that can be given up. I wonder what the extent of these protections are?

If I had to guess I would say that swearing to the DO makes one stand out to his sight instead of just another thread in the pattern. When someone is channeling to effect a person one must see them or know where they are exactly. Perhaps this applies to the DO as well if he wants to specifically affect a single threat in the pattern as opposed to affecting a large area such as the weather.

It might explain why saying the DO's true name is a bad idea as well. To the DO most humans are just like the individual threats in a run or carpet on the floor. You can throw coffee at the run but if you want to smip a single threat you need to find it. Finding it would be a lot easier if it shouts out your name to you or its got a flashing neon sign above it, but those who have not sworn and don't use your name are just one threat among a lot of threads unless you are Ta'avern.

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 04:32 PM
Going by the quote, either it was not via the link to Moridin, or Rand did not have the Dark One's permission which makes channeling the True Power impossible..
I don't see how you get that.

Let's use some logic. First, the incontrovertible facts from the books:

a) Rand is mysteriously linked to someone who has permission to channel the True Power.
b) Rand channeled the True Power.

Then the information directly from Brandon:

c) No one can channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission.
d) Rand did not have permission to use the True Power.

Finally, the conclusions:

e) Rand was able to channel the True Power because of Moridin's permission, not his own.
f) Rand was able to channel the True Power solely due to his link with Moridin.

QED.

DahLliA
11-19-2009, 04:36 PM
It has now been confirmed that Rand did NOT have the Dark One's permission to channel the True Power:

lame. so we're back to the DO and the forsaken barely beating a sack of nails at an IQ-test then

nameless
11-19-2009, 04:40 PM
Let's use some logic. First, the incontrovertible facts from the books:

a) Rand is mysteriously linked to someone who has permission to channel the True Power.
b) Rand channeled the True Power.

Then the information directly from Brandon:

c) No one can channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission.
d) Rand did not have permission to use the True Power.

Finally, the conclusions:

e) Rand was able to channel the True Power because of Moridin's permission, not his own.
f) Rand was able to channel the True Power solely due to his link with Moridin.

QED.

Premises B, C, and D are mutually exclusive... I know they're direct quotes from the author but he's obviously leaving something out to avoid spoilers. I doubt we'll get far with logical deduction from an inherently flawed premise.

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 04:42 PM
Premises B, C, and D are mutually exclusive... I know they're direct quotes from the author but he's obviously leaving something out to avoid spoilers. I doubt we'll get far with logical deduction from an inherently flawed premise.
~facepalm~

Terez
11-19-2009, 04:43 PM
I don't see how you get that.
I see how he got it. I had to do a double take when I first read the quote myself, because the first word in Brandon's answer is 'no', lol....made me think he answered the question with 'no', and then went on to say other stuff.

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 04:55 PM
I see how he got it. I had to do a double take when I first read the quote myself, because the first word in Brandon's answer is 'no', lol....made me think he answered the question with 'no', and then went on to say other stuff.
It took me a few reads to see where he thought there should be a comma.

Terez
11-19-2009, 06:11 PM
Perhaps the more interesting thing is that it seems to be confirmed that Shaidar Haran uses the True Power, since he taught Elza some weaves.

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 06:24 PM
Perhaps the more interesting thing is that it seems to be confirmed that Shaidar Haran uses the True Power, since he taught Elza some weaves.
That... seems kind of fishy, actually. Are you implying that you think Elza was given access to the TP?

Terez
11-19-2009, 06:32 PM
Yes. lol....only temporarily of course. I had the same reaction when Dom suggested it to me. But how else is Shaidar Haran supposed to teach her weaves?

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Premises B, C, and D are mutually exclusive... I know they're direct quotes from the author but he's obviously leaving something out to avoid spoilers. I doubt we'll get far with logical deduction from an inherently flawed premise.

BS opened the window himself:

Q: Did Rand directly have the DOís permission to channel the TP?

A: Itís very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DOís direct permission.

No more logical fallacies!

Belazamon
11-19-2009, 10:13 PM
BS opened the window himself:Q: Did Rand directly have the DOís permission to channel the TP?
A: Itís very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DOís direct permission.
The key word in that answer, I believe, would be "direct."

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 10:50 PM
The key part (for me, at least) is the "but not impossible" part.

Though it turns out that the "Rand doesn't have permission" answer by BS may be in dispute (see the signing report thread).

Neilbert
11-20-2009, 12:12 AM
No more logical fallacies!

A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

That, as written, means that it was impossible for Rand to channel the True Power. Except he did. So it's bad english, probably a poor transcription.

1. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission.

2. Rand doesn't have that [the Dark One's permission].

The only conclusion one can draw is that Rand did not channel the True Power, which I'm pretty sure is not true.

Am I the only one that sees the quote as written as being completely meaningless?

Q: Did Rand directly have the DO’s permission to channel the TP?

A: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

That one is much clearer.

GonzoTheGreat
11-20-2009, 03:15 AM
Yes. lol....only temporarily of course. I had the same reaction when Dom suggested it to me. But how else is Shaidar Haran supposed to teach her weaves?By linking with her?

Tree Brother
11-20-2009, 07:52 AM
By linking with her?

I don't see OP and TP as being ... linkable. And I think I missed a quote somewhere regarding SH teaching Elza some weaves... If SH can channel the TP (which I see likely as he is the Hand of the DO, and the TP is the DO's power), then the only thing he could teach Elza would be TP "weaves". TP can be used by both men and women (it only has one flavor). But again, I do not think the nature of the DO allows "linking". Just doesn't seem right.

greatwolf
11-20-2009, 11:53 AM
TP can be used by both men and women (it only has one flavor). But again, I do not think the nature of the DO allows "linking". Just doesn't seem right.

A link? I wonder what would have happened when saidn was still tainted.

<shrugs>

BTW, if the ashaman were tainted and the taint comes from the DO, does that mean they are storing the taint still? Or better still the TP?

I just felt like adding more confusion, sorry clarity to the debate. :p

Davian93
11-20-2009, 11:59 AM
Linking is an inherently unselfish act. It goes against everything the DO stands for. Thus, I doubt it happens with the TP.

Not that you'd need to link as someone channeling the TP is far stronger than any non-aided OP channeler as Rand showed when he held it and compared the TP amount he could channel to what he held at the Cleansing with the CK key.

Yuri33
11-20-2009, 12:31 PM
But how else is Shaidar Haran supposed to teach her weaves?

Well, Rand was able to describe how to reverse Compulsion to Nyneave without have to actually show her. Elza is no Nyneave, but I doubt Elza was ever given access to the TP, so SH may have simply been able to describe the method. However, we don't know what the other "unpleasant" things are that BS described Elza had to go through.

In a related bit of strangeness, how is it that Rand knew how to weave the TP properly?

Not that you'd need to link as someone channeling the TP is far stronger than any non-aided OP channeler as Rand showed when he held it and compared the TP amount he could channel to what he held at the Cleansing with the CK key.

I doubt the TP is truly as strong as Rand described it, it only felt like it. Cocaine users often feel invulnerable while they are high. After all, Rand was able to kick Ishmael's TP-using ass with just Callandor.

greatwolf
11-20-2009, 12:40 PM
as Rand showed when he held it and compared the TP amount he could channel to what he held at the Cleansing with the CK key.

Was he right in his assesment? I wouldn't really bet on Rand right now. But you're likely right about the DO and linking, I don't see him granting permission to encourage such frivolity.

Davian93
11-20-2009, 12:44 PM
Was he right in his assesment? I wouldn't really bet on Rand right now. But you're likely right about the DO and linking, I don't see him granting permission to encourage such frivolity.

He probably wasn't completely right but it does seem like the amount of TP a person can channel is completely dependent on the DO's permission for that channeler...it doesnt appear to be dependent on the person's individual strength in the OP.

jdmusic27
12-06-2009, 12:37 PM
Forgive me if this was brought up and I missed it, I have a tendency just to scan :)

In PoD, Min sees Elza as one of the four or five AS/Wise ones that will serve Rand in her own fashion. I originally thought that Elza's own fashion was killing Dashiva/Osan'gar, but could it have been that her own fashion was unintentionally providing a conduit to the TP? Maybe, considering the nature of the link, it was as if Elza had channeled herself, so it would be different than a regular link, and the male a'dam would only be designed to keep the user from weilding the OP without direction, not the TP.

Bonzi77
12-06-2009, 01:27 PM
Rand was-- in a sense-- linked to Semirhage when he channeled the TP. Could the Dark One have thought that Semi herself was the one attempting to draw the power?

padfoot89
12-06-2009, 02:59 PM
Why would the DO give TP access to Semirhage ?

Spasmodean
12-06-2009, 03:12 PM
Rand was-- in a sense-- linked to Semirhage when he channeled the TP. Could the Dark One have thought that Semi herself was the one attempting to draw the power?

Can't remember but it was during a Chosen Coffee hour that (I think) Graendal was thinking on how only Moridin had permission since his anointing as Neblis.

I personally don't think it was intentional that Rand drew on it.

Bryan Blaire
12-06-2009, 05:50 PM
I thought it was settled that Rand drew on the True Power via his link with Moridin? That was the impression I got from that scene...

jason wolfbrother
12-06-2009, 09:56 PM
Semirhage's shock and surprise at Rand using the TP, as well as her thought that the DO had betrayed her pretty much precludes her being the one drawing the TP. I'd say it is all but certain that Rand drew the TP through the link with Moridin.

Weird Harold
12-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Semirhage's shock and surprise at Rand using the TP, as well as her thought that the DO had betrayed her pretty much precludes her being the one drawing the TP. I'd say it is all but certain that Rand drew the TP through the link with Moridin.
Her shock and surprise could have also been that Rand was drawing the TP through Her. One would expect that she would have been able to command him to stop doing that through the Domination Band, but perhaps her shock and disbeliaf that he could defy the Domination Band to do anything but what she commanded delayed her reaction just a fraction of a second too long.

Tercel
12-06-2009, 11:06 PM
I thought it was settled that Rand drew on the True Power via his link with Moridin? That was the impression I got from that scene...Yup.

1. We know that Moridin is the only Forsaken allowed access to the True Power. (mentioned at least once in the books).
2. We know that the Dark One did not grant Rand permission to channel the True Power. (stated by Brandon Sanderson at a Signing)
3. We know that Rand is linked with Moridin. (because it's obvious from the books, even if Sanderson refuses to confirm or deny it at Signings)

Therefore Rand must have drawn on the True Power through his link with Moridin.

Either that, or it was through his link with Bela...

wolframbohr2
12-07-2009, 12:43 AM
While I agree with Rand channelling the TP through Mordin, I have been thinking of alternatives. One that I came up with was reasoned out by ommissions and supositions. However it does fit with the known facts as we understand them.


Rand did not channel the TP. He channeled the Scooby Snack Power of Awsomeness from the Creator.

Reasons:

1. RJ likes balance and we have yet to see a counter to the TP.

2. If Rand did channel the TP then Mordin should know it since it went through him, or the link atleast. Mordin did not come after Rand when that occured. One would assume that he would since access to the TP would shift the power balnce between them greatly.

3. We have not seen any black flecks on Rands eyes. The only description he gives is that it is like being being under water.

I know that there is litle chance of this occuring. Heck, Bela killing Asmodean has more creadible evidnece than this. But as I said I am thinking of alternatives....incase there is on in the books.

Terez
12-07-2009, 01:32 AM
2. We know that the Dark One did not grant Rand permission to channel the True Power. (stated by Brandon Sanderson at a Signing)
Turns out he did not say that:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Writo reporting (http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49575.msg1364030.html#msg1364030)

Oy,

I was at that signing, I was literally right next to Brandon as he answered this question, and that is far from his exact wording.

The response was more accurately something like: So far as we know, no one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission. Semirhage certainly seemed to think she was betrayed.

There was never a comment about Rand not having permission.

I'd take all of the Q&A by that guy with a bit of a grain of salt... He seemed very much to be looking to hear things that agree with his own opinions, not so much just trying to take in some truth from Brandon.

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714)

Matt: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark Oneís permission, so for clarificationís sake, did Rand have the Dark Oneís permission to use the True Power?

Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording [meaning that Matt has audio of this conversation - Terez]: generally one must have the Dark Oneís permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it. It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.

jason wolfbrother
12-07-2009, 11:28 AM
I would have agreed it was possible except for her sense of betrayal. Plus you would think if the TP were being drawn through her she would know about as soon as Rand reached for it and stop it. Her reaction indicates that she was even more surprised than Rand and was not herself in contact with the TP, even as a conduit.

Weird Harold
12-07-2009, 12:10 PM
I would have agreed it was possible except for her sense of betrayal. Plus you would think if the TP were being drawn through her she would know about as soon as Rand reached for it and stop it. Her reaction indicates that she was even more surprised than Rand and was not herself in contact with the TP, even as a conduit.
I seriouslydoubt that he drew the TP through Semirhage, but it would fit with Moghedien's warning about the collar turning the tables on the bracelets and taking charge.

tsr Ch 54:
Put the collar on a man who channels, and a woman wearing the bracelets can make him do whatever she wishes, true, but it will not stop him going mad, and there is a flow the other way, too. Eventually he will begin to be able to control you, too, so you end with a struggle at every hour. Not very palatable when he is going mad. Of course, you can pass the bracelets around, so no one has too much exposure, but that does mean trusting someone else with him. Men are always so good at violence; they make wonderful weapons. Or two women can each wear one bracelet, if you have someone you trust enough; that slows the seepage considerably, I understand, but it also lessens your control, even if you work in perfect unison. Eventually, you will find yourselves in a struggle for control with him, each of you needing him to remove your bracelet as surely as he needs you to remove the collar."

I think there may be a remote possibility that Rand's "eventually" was a lot shorter than expected -- like only a few seconds of intense emotion and strong will?

Tree Brother
12-07-2009, 12:20 PM
I seriouslydoubt that he drew the TP through Semirhage, but it would fit with Moghedien's warning about the collar turning the tables on the bracelets and taking charge.

Two comments. 1) (I believe) the sad bracelets only OP-link the users. Rand was able to channel the TP, because that was not part of the bracelets function (inhibiting the channeling of that power). 2) (I believe) that TP linking is not possible. That is not its nature. You can channel as much as you are allowed to. No linking. Note: The "link" with Moridin is not the same as a OP link. That is a possible "permission" link.

Wunderwaffe
12-07-2009, 01:35 PM
I believe that Shai'tan could have turned on the shut-off valve whenever he wished. Except, he didn't. I think the event was inadvertant, and spontaneous. I also think that it would have been impossible save for the Moridin-Rand connection.

Bryan Blaire
12-07-2009, 05:12 PM
Unless the point is specifically that the DO did NOT want to turn off the valve. It may have been spontaneous, but probably without notice. If the DO is truly not playing the game the way it is being thought to be played, then it may have completely served his purposes to have Rand and Moridin linked and Rand draw the TP.

Or would that be unrolled the TP?

Terez
12-07-2009, 07:19 PM
Like I said way back in the thread...yeah, it's bordering on certain that the link with Moridin is what gave access to the True Power. That doesn't mean that the Dark One wouldn't approve, and it also doesn't mean that the whole shebang wasn't planned to some degree.

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2009, 04:25 AM
It seems rather unlikely that he drew it through Semirhage, to be honest:
That other force called to him, sang to him, tempted him. So much power, so much divine wonder. But it terrified him. He didn't dare touch it, not again.
Then, of course, there is the fact that he still held the TP after having balefired Semirhage with it (he took care of Elza after he'd disposed of the Forsaken). But I am sure that the "it was through Semi" supporters can find a way of working around this little problem.

One Armed Gimp
12-08-2009, 12:14 PM
Ugh, am I the only on left that believes Rand got access directly from the DO?

That is much more sinister and I believe helpful to the plans of the DO.

Terez
12-08-2009, 12:44 PM
Ugh, am I the only on left that believes Rand got access directly from the DO?
I doubt it, but to most of us it just seems like bending over backwards to try to find an explanation other than the one that makes the most sense.

ckparrothead
12-08-2009, 04:57 PM
On first reading I had sort of taken it that Rand got permission from the Dark One. I also am not sure I buy this stuff about that face being Moridin's. I wouldn't be surprised if it was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't, either.

Is it true that the channeling sickness didn't really begin until he crossed balefire with Moridin?

If so I wonder if there might be something to the idea that now every time Rand channels the One Power, it draws the Dark One's attention as much as naming him...because now he has a link with the Dark One's champion.

Another thing is...I thought I noticed this as I was reading TGS...but after that scene where he channels the TP for the first time, don't you notice several times where Rand might be channeling or first grasping hold of the One Power, and he doesn't have that channeling sickness?

Like, what about the scene where Rand is talking to Tam. I don't think he was holding Saidin the whole time. I think he grabbed hold of it when he got really mad, yet he didn't seem to go through a sickness that approached the one notable one that he labeled the worst he's gone through.

I'm hazy on the timeline. When did he come out of that stedding and a look of ecstasy was on his face? Was it before the collar incident? Or after. If after, note he again didn't seem to go through any sickness. I wonder if he was channeling the TP since it's so addictive.

Maybe channeling the True Power cured the channeling sickness. Maybe the sickness itself was the Dark One's eye on Rand every time he channeled, and he was trying to nudge him into using the True Power.

hippie-joe
12-08-2009, 05:35 PM
And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.


the problem with this is that the DO is the only connect for the TP. so if rand goes to channel it to seal him he'd just cut him off from it. DO: "you've had enough"
rand: "oh please... i needs my fix"

Wunderwaffe
12-10-2009, 10:28 AM
the problem with this is that the DO is the only connect for the TP. so if rand goes to channel it to seal him he'd just cut him off from it. DO: "you've had enough"
rand: "oh please... i needs my fix"

I look at it like the True Power is the Dark One, and the Dark One is the True Power. One and the same.

Yellowbeard
12-10-2009, 01:31 PM
And perhaps Rand will re-seal the Bore with the TP, so there's nothing to taint.

is the TP single or double ply? if it's double, maybe it will be gentle enough to not irritate the DO and rand can use it to seal the DO's bore. or at least wipe the old seals away. they've got to have left one helluva set of 'roids on the DO's bore.:D

Fermatsfermata
01-16-2010, 12:14 AM
Has the question ever been asked, "Is the True Power split up like the One Power?" If it is split, do we know if a man could see what a woman weaves with it and woman a man's? I don't recall reading a scene in which a woman is allowed to touch the TP.

I think there has to be something like this with the TP. When Rand cleansed the taint (and from RJ clarifing more later) the two halves of the OP were combined together but they could not touch each other.

I know that RJ said the taint on Saidin and the evil of Shadar Logoth were like the opposite ends of a magnet, but also the same. The way I understand the cleansing, once there was enough of the taint to get around the repulsion side of the Shadar Logoth evil, the two attracted each other and it sucked the rest of the taint right off Saidin. But the effect was like mixing an acid and base together - big explosion.

Now certainly I don't think the way to defeat the DO is like cleansing Saidin, but I think there is a missing componet that will be used in either resealing the bore, or in making a new prision. Of course there is the great unknown factor of Fain with the dagger. ;)

Terez
01-16-2010, 01:09 AM
Has the question ever been asked, "Is the True Power split up like the One Power?"
No, because one of the exciting things about the discovery of the True Power in the first place, before the Bore was drilled, was that it (singular) could be used by both men and women.

If it is split, do we know if a man could see what a woman weaves with it and woman a man's? I don't recall reading a scene in which a woman is allowed to touch the TP.
When Aran'gar channels, Moghedien immediately jumps to the idea that she is channeling saidin, after a short skip over the only other possibility, that she was channeling the True Power. The latter was discounted because Moghedien assumed that Aran'gar was a Third-Ager and could not possibly have been granted the privilege. She never considers inverted weaves, strangely, but also, RJ intimated in interviews that you can't sense when anyone is using the True Power, at least not by any way we have seen yet.

Apparently, anyone can sense the True Power around Shayol Ghul, or at least anyone who can channelóthe Bore was drilled at the thinness in the Pattern where the True Power could be sensedóbut anyone who tried to channel it there would be burned to a cinder. The Forsaken are reluctant to hold the Power long after their gateways close, but there is no actual danger in channeling the One Power there, other than the danger of making the Dark One think you are up to something with it.