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View Full Version : The meaning of "never" (warning: LTT inside)


GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 08:59 AM
Why have we come here?Rand thought.
Because, Rand replied. Because we made this. This is where we died.

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.Now, if this is true, if Rand really is the one who died there, then that means that the voice that Rand heard really had been the voice of LTT.

If they had been two different men, then he isn't healed after all, and this chapter is rather pointless. Not entirely so, since the voice could return (as it did after Cadsuane first chased it away), but that would be quite hard to match with the opening his eyes prophecy which he now supposedly fulfilled.

So this passage shows that Rand and LTT really were two personalities generated at different times by the same soul, and now they've been integrated into one single man.

Sei'taer
11-06-2009, 10:25 AM
misunderstood your post....carry on!

Tree Brother
11-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Now, if this is true, if Rand really is the one who died there, then that means that the voice that Rand heard really had been the voice of LTT.
I don't see how you get that.

So this passage shows that Rand and LTT really were two personalities generated at different times by the same soul, and now they've been integrated into one single man.

Those two quotes you give. Let us call it before and after:

Before (separate): This is where "we" died. Whether you are real or construct, we = Rand and Voice.

After (integrated): "they were not two men, and never had been"

It doesn't matter whether you believe LTT is the "real" personality from the AoL, or a fabricated personality by Rand. This passage show Rand thinking there is a voice, to knowing there isn't one.

Rand never died in this chapter. At the end of this chapter you have Rand + memories from the AoL.

I am on the construct side, but I don't see this passage arguing one side or the other. All this passage says is: Going forward, there is no Real vs Construct debate. The conflict no longer exists. There is only Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 03:47 PM
It is not "there is only Rand". It is "there is only the Dragon". Whether he grew up as Lews Therin or as Rand does not matter, it is the same man.
That is what Lanfear had been telling him all along, and she was right.

drakenwulf
11-06-2009, 03:54 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the "to live you must die." answer he got from the doorway people. (can't remember how to spell name) I suppose in a way this could be interpreted as rand dying (metaphorically) and lews therin, the end result , there is no rand there is no lews therin there is only the dragon soul. The only way rand could ever succede is by being the dragon, totally accepting every faucet of what that is. He can't win the last battle by being rand althor or LTT.

Tree Brother
11-06-2009, 03:56 PM
It is not "there is only Rand". It is "there is only the Dragon". Whether he grew up as Lews Therin or as Rand does not matter, it is the same man.
That is what Lanfear had been telling him all along, and she was right.

Well, the way I see it, is whether you follow the "real" or "construct" view, as of the end of this book, Rand is more like Birgitte. And since "Rand" is the most recent incarnation, that will be the most heavily weighted, in whatever personality he now has.

We will need to RAFO.

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Oh yes, he will definitely be mostly Rand from now on.

And the "to live, you must die" wasn't metaphorical at all for Rand during his mountaintop retreat. It was actually the core of his revelation: that because of death, people can be reborn again and thus love again.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 09:04 PM
And the "to live, you must die" wasn't metaphorical at all for Rand during his mountaintop retreat. It was actually the core of his revelation: that because of death, people can be reborn again and thus love again.
Heh. Alternately, maybe the 'Finn were being completely metaphorical. If you stop to think about it, Rand couldn't have been born until Lews had died. ;)

Tamyrlin
11-06-2009, 09:20 PM
I love that interpretation. To live again...duh, you must die.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 09:29 PM
I love that interpretation. To live again...duh, you must die.
That even works with Mat's answer! He will one day die, and eventually his soul will live again - and way down the road, he'll live once more a part of what was (in the last Turning). ;)

Terez
11-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 11:09 PM
Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?
Well, Rand has to die someday. Nothing says Alivia will help him die so he can live. ;)

Nice visual, though,

"Light, hurry up Rand al'Thor. Bloody hot down here, you know?"

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2009, 04:36 AM
That even works with Mat's answer! He will one day die, and eventually his soul will live again - and way down the road, he'll live once more a part of what was (in the last Turning).Perhaps that's what they tell everyone "you must go to Rhuidean". Ehr, I mean, "to live, you must die".

Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?It doesn't work that way. The dieing is serial, the living may happen in parallel.

Rand figured out that he had actually died (as LTT) and then been reborn, and drew the obvious conclusion from that that others who have died will also be reborn. This set him at ease in regards to all the deaths he held himself responsible for.
But the important issue for us, in regards to the LTT debate, is that Rand now accepts that he actually is LTT, and always was. Thus, the voice of LTT that he had been hearing was not constructed by his subconscious, but was indeed the actual voice of LTT which hadn't been dissolved (or whatever happens) into his soul upon death, nor had it been integrated with his new incarnation. That last has now happened.

Terez
11-07-2009, 04:45 AM
That's just a convoluted and flawed way of saying that the 'voice' of Lews Therin was actually himself all along, you know. ;)

The point of the construct theory has always been that. Rand is Lews Therin. The 'voice' was just his way of pretending he was not.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2009, 05:26 AM
The construct theory says that the voice was constructed after Rand learned how to channel. The real idea is that the voice was there all along (though dormant), and woke up after Rand learned to channel.
Thus, in one the voice was made during Rand's life, in the other they were always one man (yet separate personalities for a while).

Terez
11-07-2009, 05:31 AM
The construct theory says that the voice was constructed after Rand learned how to channel. The real idea is that the voice was there all along (though dormant)
That is obviously untrue. The memories were always there, though dormant, or inaccessible, but the 'voice' clearly was not. Well, it was, but it was just Rand's inner voice (you can see the voice talking to Rand in the bits where he is in denial about Tam not being his father, for instance). Rand didn't start calling that 'Lews Therin' until after he started remembering Lews Therin's life. ;)

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 10:50 AM
That is obviously untrue.
I do wish you'd stop using the word "obvious" quite so much... :p

Enigma
11-07-2009, 03:02 PM
At some point in TGS Rand though that he had been able to deal with the AS beating him by pouring the pain into LTT as he was so agonised already a bit more would barely be noticed.

Likewise Rand though that LTT was mad. Could he have been subconsciously pouring all the growing fear, paranoia, desire to kill everything and the desire to be rid of his burden (to die) into LTT or that part of his own mind that represented LTT. The more of his growing fealings that he put into that part of his mind the stronger that part became until it nearly dominated him.

Sodas
11-07-2009, 03:27 PM
No. What happened was Rand himself, turned so hard because of Semirhage that he nearly went insane. He became LTT, the mad kinslayer one. LTT meanwhile, became more sane.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 03:30 PM
No. What happened was Rand himself, turned so hard because of Semirhage that he nearly went insane.
The fact that you seem to think Rand hasn't been insane for a long time is yet another huge rift between us.

Maybe we should start making a list of these. ;)

the_dead
11-07-2009, 03:45 PM
The fact that you seem to think Rand hasn't been insane for a long time is yet another huge rift between us.

Maybe we should start making a list of these. ;)
This would be nice.:)

Sodas
11-07-2009, 03:56 PM
The fact that you seem to think Rand hasn't been insane for a long time is yet another huge rift between us.
)

Name one thing besides your construct theory that proves Rand insane.

Terez
11-07-2009, 04:50 PM
I do wish you'd stop using the word "obvious" quite so much... :p
Why?

jason wolfbrother
11-07-2009, 04:59 PM
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means"

;)

Terez
11-07-2009, 05:02 PM
lol....obviously I do know what it means. ;)

JSUCamel
11-07-2009, 05:12 PM
Why?

Because if it were so obvious, there wouldn't be any argument about it. Ergo, it's not as obvious as you think it is.

Terez
11-07-2009, 05:14 PM
Oh, it is. Gonzo is, as usual, playing devil's advocate, in this instance. Also, there are lots of things that are obvious that people just don't get. Doesn't make those things any less obvious.

Lord Bloodpath
11-07-2009, 08:55 PM
like the fact that the KC prophecy about kneeling to the crystal throne is "obviously" false ;)

Terez
11-07-2009, 09:51 PM
I'll ask you the same thing I asked WH - ever heard of a red herring? :D

Lord Bloodpath
11-07-2009, 11:00 PM
I have. They are yummy with the right sauce.

While I will admit the possibility that you are correct in that idea, the possibility seems so exceedingly small as to be negligible....

I assume that you mean the herring is for us, the readers. I don't see hom the binding idea serves as a red herring for us. Under ordinary circumstances, red herrings have some strong emotional connotations and cloud an issue. The only idea that fits that bill is that Rand will kneel. *I* hardly care whether Rand does kneel to Tuon or not, but I could see how it would upset others.

As far as I'm concerned, she is already bound to him by Mat, it's just that none of the three realize it yet. If some further binding occurs, well and good. My issues with the kneeling are that there seems to be so much good evidence against it and it introduces complexity I don't think we need at this point.

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Name one thing besides your construct theory that proves Rand insane.
That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).
Check.