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WinespringBrother
11-06-2009, 12:18 PM
Brandon's recent comments indicate that this "small that is big" undiscussed detail was repeated beginning sometime in books 4-6 but referenced afterward as well. IIRC, we have not discussed this at all, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of context with which to make arguments/theories regarding it. I have found 5 quotes, beginning from TSR to LOC, and a couple of mentions after that, along with a comment from Demandred that may or may not be related:

1 Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions
Tenobia may even be forced off the throne by it. The only good news I have heard is that the Blight has retreated for some reason. Two miles or more of green beyond the borderstones, without a hint of corruption or pestilence, all the way from Saldaea to Shienar. The first time in memory it has done that. But I suppose good news has to be balanced by bad. When a boat has one leak it is sure to have others. I only wish it was a balance. Leane, have the watch on Logain increased. I can't - see what trouble he could cause now, but I do not want to find out." She turned those piercing blue eyes on Min. "Why did you come flapping up here with this like a startled gull? Logain could have waited. The man is hardly likely to find power and glory before sunset."

2 Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall
"Mother," Alviarin began with that irritating lack of emotion, but Elaida stopped her with a glare. "Putting our hands on Rand al'Thor is more important by far than skirmishes in Shienar or whether the Blight is quiet, more important than finding Elayne or Galad, more important even than Mazrim Taim. You will find him. You will! When next I see you, each of you will be ready to tell me in detail what you have done to make it so. Now you may leave me, daughters."


3 Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought
"At least the Blight is still quiet," Myrelle said. "Almost too quiet. It cannot last. A good thing that Elaida has plenty of eyes-and-ears through the Borderlands." Siuan managed to combine a wince with a glare at the Aes Sedai. Elayne did not think she had managed yet to make contact with any of her agents in the Borderlands; they lay a long way from Salidar,

4 Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 9 - Plans
Despite those instructions Omerna's rendition was long, delivered in a sonorous voice full of certainty. Al'Thor had barely extended his control in Andor beyond Caemlyn. His lightning onslaught was clearly stalled at last—as Omerna carefully pointed out that he had predicted. There was little chance the Borderlands would join the Children against the false Dragon any time soon; lords in Shienar, Arafel and Kandor were taking advantage of the Blight's quiet to rebel, and the Queen of Saldaea had gone into seclusion in the country, in fear of the same according to Omerna. His agents were at work, however, and the Borderland rulers would be brought to heel as soon as these small rebellions were quashed. On the other hand, the rulers of Murandy, Altara and Ghealdan were ready to fall into line, though making ambivalent noises at present to soothe the Tar Valon witches. Alliandre of Ghealdan knew her throne was shaky, knew she needed the Children to avoid plummeting as abruptly as her predecessors, while both Tylin of Altara and Roedran of Murandy hoped that the Children's weight would make them more than figureheads at last. Plainly the man considered those lands already as good as in Niall's coat pocket.

5 Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 9 - Plans
"Not yet, my Lord. But Davram Bashere is in Caemlyn. With thirty thousand light horse, my informants claim, but I think no more than half that. He would not weaken Saldaea too far, however quiet the Blight, even if Tenobia commanded him to."

6 Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances
"The Blight seems almost asleep," Terasian muttered, whiskers rasping as he rubbed his fleshy chin. "I've never seen it so quiet."

7 Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 9 - A Cup of Tea
Not all the news was important, either. His letter writers really were not eyes-and-ears; they just wrote the news of their city, the talk of the court. The talk of Tear was of increasing numbers of Sea Folk ships that made their way through the Fingers of the Dragon without pilots and now crowded the river at the city, of rumors that Sea Folk vessels had fought the Seanchan at sea, though that was purely rumor. Illian was quiet, and full of Rand's soldiers, recovering from a battle against the Seanchan; no more was known; even whether Rand had been in the city was in question. The Queen of Saldaea was still on her long retreat in the country, which Elayne already knew about, but it seemed the Queen of Kandor had not been seen in Chachin for months, either, and the King of Shienar was supposedly still on an extended inspection of the Blight border, though the Blight was reported quieter than any time in memory. In Lugard, King Roedran was gathering every noble who would bring armsmen, and a city already worried about two great armies camped near the border with Andor, one full of Aes Sedai and the other full of Andorans, now also worried about what a dissolute wastrel like Roedran intended.


Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
There was water, of a sort, an inky rivulet oozing down the rocky slope beside a gray-roofed forge. Hammers rang inside, and with every ring, white light flared in the cramped windows. A ragged woman crouched in a hopeless heap against the forge's rough stone wall, clutching a babe in her arms, and a spindly girl buried her face in the woman's skirts. Prisoners from a raid down into the Borderlands, no doubt. But so few; the Myrddraal must be gnashing their teeth. Their blades failed after a time and had to be replaced, no matter that raids into the Borderlands had been curtailed.

As to why the Blight is quiet, we can probably only speculate on what happened just before this:

1) Rand takes Callandor and officially declares himself
2) Rand kills Ishamael
3) The Dark One starts trying to freeze the seasons in place

Comments? Thoughts? Ways to confirm this from Brandon? :D

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 12:21 PM
As to why the Blight is quiet, we can probably only speculate on what happened just before this:

1) Rand takes Callandor and officially declares himself
2) Rand kills Ishamael
3) The Dark One starts trying to freeze the seasons in place

Comments? Thoughts? Ways to confirm this from Brandon? :D

I had thought we had decided that the retreating of the Blight was due to the Shadow gathering its forces and preparing for assault. When the military begins preparing for war, they don't let all their soldiers be stranded in groups around the country, they call them back to the base to send them out as a large group. I assumed the Blight was marshaling its forces, and that's why the Blight was retreating.

I suppose this could be wrong, though. Good catch, WSB.

WinespringBrother
11-06-2009, 12:25 PM
I had thought we had decided that the retreating of the Blight was due to the Shadow gathering its forces and preparing for assault. When the military begins preparing for war, they don't let all their soldiers be stranded in groups around the country, they call them back to the base to send them out as a large group. I assumed the Blight was marshaling its forces, and that's why the Blight was retreating.

I suppose this could be wrong, though. Good catch, WSB.

Thanks!

I think there is a distinction between the Shadow's armies and the Blight. RJ has described it as the corruption caused by the exposure of the prison to the real world. I'm not sure if that means it is an intentional or unintentional process on the Dark One's part, but either way, it could be significant in the long run.

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Thanks!

I think there is a distinction between the Shadow's armies and the Blight. RJ has described it as the corruption caused by the exposure of the prison to the real world. I'm not sure if that means it is an intentional or unintentional process on the Dark One's part, but either way, it could be significant in the long run.

Interesting. I always assumed the Blight expanded and contracted based on Shadowspawn presence. Very interesting.

Could it perhaps just mean that the DO is focusing his energies elsewhere?

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 12:36 PM
In TGS, the Blight is moving out again, correct? Doesn't Ituralde or Bashere comment on how it was a good distance further out than it had been?

WinespringBrother
11-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Interesting. I always assumed the Blight expanded and contracted based on Shadowspawn presence. Very interesting.

Could it perhaps just mean that the DO is focusing his energies elsewhere?

Or he is trying to make us THINK that LOL But that sentiment could also be why we have ignored this small detail that is spread out a few times through 1000's of pages.

Davian93
11-06-2009, 12:43 PM
Yes, the Blight is expanding again in tGS. It does fit the perimeters of BS's comment.


So, what is its significance?

Tree Brother
11-06-2009, 12:49 PM
Is it decreasing again, now that Rand has made some sort of peace with himself? (Storms clearing around Dragonmount).

bowlwoman
11-06-2009, 12:54 PM
This is a very interesting idea. Doesn't the Blight extend with the growing power of the DO? If so, and considering the DO's prison is weakening and the DO can touch the world much more than before (his power is increasing), why would the Blight have retreated? It's expanding again, but not "normally." There's definitely something going on here.

I found this (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Blight) on TarValon.net:

After Rand used up the Eye of the World, however (TEotW, Ch. 52), Moiraine says they struck a great blow against the Dark One. The Blight is very still (TEotW, Ch. 53) and has retreated two miles all along the Borderlands (TSR, Ch. 17).

Why would using the Eye of the World strike such a blow to the DO? Rand and co. killed a couple of Forsaken and retrieved the Dragon Banner/broken seal/Horn of Valere, and Rand had his weird visiony fight at Tarwin's Gap, so is that what Moiraine is referring to? I vaguely remember something about RJ saying that the key to the whole series was in the first book, but I might be wrong about that. Does anyone know where to find such a quote?

If the important key is in tEotW, that still doesn't explain Brandon's quote about the clue in books 4-6, unless, as WSB so cleverly researched, it's all about the Blight.

Yes, the Blight is expanding again in tGS. It does fit the perimeters of BS's comment.

So, the fact that the Blight is now expanding quite rapidly should mean something. However, even though it's finally expanding again, it's still quiet. Too quiet.

tworiverswoman
11-06-2009, 01:04 PM
WSB - would you mind inserting the Brandon quote you are referencing? I haven't read it and have no clue whatever what you're talking about.

Ozymandias
11-06-2009, 01:16 PM
I was always under the impression the Blight was the manifestation of the Dark One's corruption. His very slight touch has been focused on sending the Blight south for all these thousands of years. Now he's increasing in power, and instead of continuing with that agonizingly slow process, he decided to focus his energies on fixing the seasons, changing the weather; all much more intense endeavors, leaving him no time for the slow, nearly useless (given how little time is left before the real battles begin) creeping of corruption into the Borderlands.

Now that the seasons are better as of a few months ago, he's decided to start back on the Blight.

WinespringBrother
11-06-2009, 01:51 PM
WSB - would you mind inserting the Brandon quote you are referencing? I haven't read it and have no clue whatever what you're talking about.

It's from Tam's thread about the Salt Lake City Q&A:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2566

Originally posted by Tamyrlin/Brandon

Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 02:27 PM
We've talked about the blight thing before. Not in much detail, but we have talked about it. Either way, I think your idea has merit, WSB.
Sorry, nothing to actually add. :-/

matrimzombie
11-06-2009, 02:36 PM
Is it decreasing again, now that Rand has made some sort of peace with himself? (Storms clearing around Dragonmount).

Good question. Like some others have mentioned, I've always seen the blight as a tangible measure of how the battle between Light and Shadow is going.

Terez
11-06-2009, 02:44 PM
1. This detail was introduced in book 1, not in 4-6.
2. We've discussed it a lot.
3. It's not exactly a minor detail.

nameless
11-06-2009, 03:45 PM
This is a very interesting idea. Doesn't the Blight extend with the growing power of the DO? If so, and considering the DO's prison is weakening and the DO can touch the world much more than before (his power is increasing), why would the Blight have retreated? It's expanding again, but not "normally." There's definitely something going on here.

I found this (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Blight) on TarValon.net:



Why would using the Eye of the World strike such a blow to the DO? Rand and co. killed a couple of Forsaken and retrieved the Dragon Banner/broken seal/Horn of Valere, and Rand had his weird visiony fight at Tarwin's Gap, so is that what Moiraine is referring to? I vaguely remember something about RJ saying that the key to the whole series was in the first book, but I might be wrong about that. Does anyone know where to find such a quote?

If the important key is in tEotW, that still doesn't explain Brandon's quote about the clue in books 4-6, unless, as WSB so cleverly researched, it's all about the Blight.



So, the fact that the Blight is now expanding quite rapidly should mean something. However, even though it's finally expanding again, it's still quiet. Too quiet.

I wondered why the Blight and the unnatural winter were affected by the deaths of a few Forsaken and a few thousand Trollocs myself when I first read EotW. Presently I think the actual events at the Eye were almost incidental. The Shadow withdrew because the three ta'veren were standing in the foothills of Shayol Gul and in their presence the pattern corrected itself to remove the Shadow's influence. Or, to use Moridin's sha'rah analogy, Moraine picked up the Fisher piece and put it on a white square along the enemy's goal row, thereby winning the game.

WinespringBrother
11-06-2009, 03:47 PM
1. This detail was introduced in book 1, not in 4-6.
2. We've discussed it a lot.
3. It's not exactly a minor detail.

Do you have any quotes from book 1?

One Armed Gimp
11-06-2009, 04:32 PM
As was already pointed out, Moiraine's comment after the EotW incident. From this point on its seems like its pretty quiet and gets quieter with every Rand "victory".

I also would discount this as a possibility for the reasons given.

Terez
11-06-2009, 04:38 PM
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 53 - The Wheel Turns

He half expected they would have to fight their way out as they fought their way in, but the Blight was as quiet and still as death. Not a single branch trembled as if to lash at them, nothing screamed or howled, neither nearby nor in the distance. The Blight seemed to crouch, not to pounce, but as if it had been struck a great blow and waited for the next to fall. Even the sun was less red.

When they passed the necklace of lakes, the sun hung not far past its zenith. Lan kept them well away from the lakes and did not even look at them, but Rand thought the seven towers seemed taller than when he first saw them. He was sure the jagged tops were further from the ground, and above them something almost seen, seamless towers gleaming in the sun, and banners with Golden Cranes flying on the wind. He blinked and stared, but the towers refused to vanish completely. They were there at the edge of vision until the Blight hid the lakes once more.

Before sunset the Warder chose a campsite, and Moiraine had Nynaeve and Egwene help her up to set wards. The Aes Sedai whispered in the other women's ears before she began. Nynaeve hesitated, but when Moiraine closed her eyes, all three women did so together.

Rand saw Mat and Perrin staring, and wondered how they could be surprised. Every woman is an Aes Sedai, he thought mirthlessly. The Light help me, so am I. Bleakness held his tongue.

"Why is it so different?" Perrin asked as Egwene and the Wisdom helped Moiraine to her bed. "It feels ..." His thick shoulders shrugged as if he could not find the word.

"We struck a mighty blow at the Dark One," Moiraine replied, settling herself with a sigh. "The Shadow will be a long time recovering."

"How?" Mat demanded. "What did we do?"

"Sleep," Moiraine said. "We are not out of the Blight yet."

But the next morning, still nothing changed that Rand could see. The Blight faded as they rode south, of course. Twisted trees were replaced by straight. The stifling heat diminished. Rotting foliage gave way to the merely diseased. And then not diseased, he realized. The forest around them became red with new growth, thick on the branches. Buds sprouted on the undergrowth, creepers covered the rocks with green, and new wildflowers dotted the grass as thick and bright as where the Green Man walked. It was as if spring, so long held back by winter, now raced to catch up to where it should be.

He was not the only one who stared. "A mighty blow," Moiraine murmured, and would say no more.
.

Matoyak
11-06-2009, 05:20 PM
Or, to use Moridin's sha'rah analogy, Moiraine picked up the Fisher piece and put it on a white square along the enemy's goal row, thereby winning the game.The Sha'rah game seems to be a metaphor for the entire good vs evil fight. Moiraine might have taken one piece of the dark's, no more. Certainly not a "winning the game" moment.

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 06:36 PM
This is a very interesting idea. Doesn't the Blight extend with the growing power of the DO? If so, and considering the DO's prison is weakening and the DO can touch the world much more than before (his power is increasing), why would the Blight have retreated? It's expanding again, but not "normally." There's definitely something going on here.

I found this (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Blight) on TarValon.net:



Why would using the Eye of the World strike such a blow to the DO? Rand and co. killed a couple of Forsaken and retrieved the Dragon Banner/broken seal/Horn of Valere, and Rand had his weird visiony fight at Tarwin's Gap, so is that what Moiraine is referring to? I vaguely remember something about RJ saying that the key to the whole series was in the first book, but I might be wrong about that. Does anyone know where to find such a quote?

If the important key is in tEotW, that still doesn't explain Brandon's quote about the clue in books 4-6, unless, as WSB so cleverly researched, it's all about the Blight.



So, the fact that the Blight is now expanding quite rapidly should mean something. However, even though it's finally expanding again, it's still quiet. Too quiet.
EYE have no idea what you're talking about.

(Sorry, it had to be done)

Crispin's Crispian
11-06-2009, 07:05 PM
EYE have no idea what you're talking about.

(Sorry, it had to be done)
EYE wonder if anyone can locate that original theory. Weeks and weeks of comedy in that...

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 07:12 PM
That was so long ago EYE'd probably bet that the hamsters ate it. Never know though it might still be around somewhere.

Terez
11-06-2009, 07:24 PM
@SBX, a bit off topic. I just clicked your link. Your collection looks just like mine, with the exception of the RPG books, and the fact that it looks like your books 1 and 2 are trade paperbacks. I have those too, but I also have them in hardback. Also, is it just me, or did you take New Spring out of its dustcover because it wouldn't fit on the shelf? It looks a little thin...

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 07:37 PM
I've looked for tEotW and tGH in hard cover but have never been able to find them. In fact, I only found tDR in HC this past august. As for NS, it's just a few centimeters behind the rest and so from the angle the picture is at, it looks thin.

Davian93
11-06-2009, 07:54 PM
I've looked for tEotW and tGH in hard cover but have never been able to find them. In fact, I only found tDR in HC this past august. As for NS, it's just a few centimeters behind the rest and so from the angle the picture is at, it looks thin.

I saw both in hardcover at my local B& N. They are reprintings but are still hard covers. I thought about buying them as I don't have the first 3 books in hardcover (I didn't start reading the series till Book 4 was out). Can't justify the price though as I have them in the large soft cover and paperback already.

Terez
11-06-2009, 08:05 PM
I justified it by saying my paperbacks were loan copies. :)

Davian93
11-06-2009, 08:09 PM
I justified it by saying my paperbacks were loan copies. :)

I cant use that, I have at least 2 copies of each paperback already. I tend to pick them up if I see them in used books stores when they're $0.50-$1.00.

FelixPax
11-06-2009, 09:42 PM
1. This detail was introduced in book 1, not in 4-6.
2. We've discussed it a lot.
3. It's not exactly a minor detail.

Why couldn't it have to do with Mat's memories? Mat possibly being of the Aiel, maybe even a ta'veren soul connected to the Jenn Aiel?


His first question—and the other two, for that matter—he had worked out before going down to the Great Hold. “Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

Let see Rand is the Car'a'carn, Perrin is a Blacksmith, and Mat's "people" are in Rhuidean? Jenn Aiel? Are all three ta'veren directly connected to the Aiel by blood, memories and/or occupational choice?


When Mat went to see that Aelfinn, he had this strange memory hinting at prior lives visiting the Aelfinn before he even asked any questions to the three snake like individuals in a room:

He saw no one except his silent guide; he could have believed the place empty except for the two of them. From somewhere he had a dim memory of walking halls that had not known a human foot in hundreds of years, and this felt the same. Yet sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye. Only, however quickly he turned, there was never anyone there. He pretended to rub his forearms, checking the knives up his coatsleeves for reassurance.

Is Mat far more similar to Birgitte or Rand than has been suggested previously? Each have knowledge of past lives lived, so are the holes in Mat's memories the holes of his own past lives lived?

Is Mat possibly a future coming Jenn Aiel Chief? Yes, I understand this is a bizarre suggestion but there was a very strange scene in Rhuidean with Mat's lucky.


“I think I have to go on alone from here,” Rand said slowly.
“What do you mean?” Mat demanded. “I’ve come this far, haven’t I? I am not going to turn tail now.” Wouldn’t I just like to, though!
“It isn’t that, Mat. If you go in there, you come out a clan chief, or you die. Or come out mad. I don’t believe there’s any other choice. Unless maybe the Wise Ones go in there.”
Mat hesitated. To die and live again. That was what they had said. He had no intention of trying to be an Aiel clan chief, though; the Aiel would probably stick spears through him. “We’ll leave it to luck,” he said, pulling the Tar Valon mark from his pocket. “Getting to be my lucky coin. Flame, I go in with you; head, I stay out.” He flipped the gold coin quickly, before Rand could object.
Somehow he missed grabbing it; the mark careened off his fingertrips, clinked to the pavement, bounced twice….And landed on edge.
He glared at Rand accusingly. “Do you do this sort of thing on purpose? Can’t you control it?”
“No.” The coin fell over, showing an ageless woman’s face surrounded by stars. “It looks like you stay out here, Mat.”

Did Mat's luck delay his future in becoming an Aiel Clan Chief? Mat never wanted to become a Noble, yet he became a Noble after Tuon completed their marriage vows (KoD book). And now in tGS book, the Jenn Aiel are clustering around the very nation which his wife rules from. So are Mat's "people" the Jenn Aiel? Did the pattern know that Mat had to marry the Daughter of Nine Moons first? And only then could he become the leader of the Jenn Aiel?

Another irony of that later Eelfinn visit, is they didn't seem to fill-in "his own distant memories of past lives" lived; but instead gave him "other individuals" memories.

Will Mat find the missing song of the Jenn Aiel, the Tinkers from within his own memories?

Azure Skeith
11-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Let see Rand is the Car'a'carn, Perrin is a Blacksmith, and Mat's "people" are in Rhuidean? Jenn Aiel?

IIRC, the snakes told him just that he must go to Rhuidean, not saying anything about people. I have taken this as meaning that in order for him to accomplish his "destiny", to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons/help save the world and all that, he had to go and get the memories. If Mat had returned to the Two Rivers, a lot of crap would be different and everyone would probably be dead by now.

When Mat went to see that Aelfinn, he had this strange memory hinting at prior lives visiting the Aelfinn before he even asked any questions to the three snake like individuals in a room:

I have always assumed this was merely a referance to him walking through Aridhol (I can't seem to spell the other name for it atm). I seem to remember the POV mentioning that the ruins felt empty and untraveled.

Did Mat's luck delay his future in becoming an Aiel Clan Chief?

Again I've always assumed differently. Rand had been holding the Power before, to raise the water from fountain, and I can't recall anywhere it saying he released it. From that I've always thought Rand had forced it to stand on edge so he could see which side was which then push it down on the face to ensure Mat didn't go in. He had always been trying to protect everyone before, why not then?

JSUCamel
11-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Is Mat far more similar to Birgitte or Rand than has been suggested previously? Each have knowledge of past lives lived, so are the holes in Mat's memories the holes of his own past lives lived?

No. The memories in Mat's head are not his past lives.

Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview


Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?
RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

Emphasis mine.

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 10:24 PM
oh, yeah. I've got a bunch of paper backs too. They're on the other side of my closet. My copy of tEotW disappeared, LoC is falling apart, tFoH disappeared, I've got tEotW that's divided in two with the Raven's prologue, aCoS is the maroon cover. Oh and I've got tFoH and tPoD in mini-hardcover too. Oh, and I also have a 'free' first part of tEotW. I guess it was a promotion to get people into the series at some point.

Edit: forgot Legends with 'New Spring' and the 'New Spring' comics. So I guess that link isn't really my completely WoT collection after all.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-06-2009, 10:27 PM
I've looked for tEotW and tGH in hard cover but have never been able to find them. In fact, I only found tDR in HC this past august. As for NS, it's just a few centimeters behind the rest and so from the angle the picture is at, it looks thin.


Heh. Years ago EYE joined the scifi book club and got all the hardcovers up to #8 for something ridiculous, like $12 total, and got the BWB as one of my 3 required purchases later. EYE have the set in paperback EYE read, and don't touch the hardcovers. Of course EYE am on my 3rd paperback of Lord of Chaos. That one, for some reason, falls apart.

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 10:32 PM
there's a bit of a hole there Camel as Mat was sprouting the old tongue and for some reason I want to say perhaps remembering things (although that one is fuzzy) before that happened.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 10:33 PM
That was so long ago EYE'd probably bet that the hamsters ate it. Never know though it might still be around somewhere.
EYE was pretty sure it was a Yuku thing - at least, EYE found some references to it in my last browse-through, which made it sound like it was relatively new-ish.

It's hard to find too many old posts now, though, since my account got eaten. :(

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 10:41 PM
not yuku, but definately EZBoard EYE'm sure (and someone really needs to link Seal this thread).

Terez
11-06-2009, 10:43 PM
there's a bit of a hole there Camel as Mat was sprouting the old tongue and for some reason I want to say perhaps remembering things (although that one is fuzzy) before that happened.
That was Old Blood memories (memories of ancestors), not past life memories.

FelixPax
11-06-2009, 10:59 PM
IIRC, the snakes told him just that he must go to Rhuidean, not saying anything about people.

The thing is, Matt didn't mention Two Rivers in his first question to the snakes truth-tellers. Yet they told Mat to go to Rhuidean, which is the ancient home of the People of the Dragon, the Jenn Aiel. Who are now called Tinkers in the rest of the Westlands, and who were likely also the Amayar on the Sea Folk islands.

The Aelfinn seem to imply that Matt's People were the Jenn Aiel of Rhuidean.

Oddly enough, the very first Aelfinn individual said this to Mat:

"A long time."
He jumped, a knife coming into his hand, and peered among the columns for the source of the breathy voice that pronounced those words so harshly.
"A long time, yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more."

Do the Aelfinn think of Rand and Mat as "seekers", in the same vein as the Tinker leaders are called "Seekers" by Elyas, Perrin in the story?

Rand we know by Aiel blood, but does Mat have Aiel blood as well? Are both "seekers"?


I have always assumed this was merely a referance to him walking through Aridhol (I can't seem to spell the other name for it atm). I seem to remember the POV mentioning that the ruins felt empty and untraveled.

The description of Aelfinn pathways and the palace like structure is strange indeed;

There was not a straight line to be seen anywhere except for the floor itself, as he trailed the strange man. Even the ceiling was always arched, and the walls bowed out. The halls were continuously curved, the doorways rounded, the windows perfect circles. Tilework made spirals and sinuous lines, and what seemed to be bronze metalwork set in the ceiling at intervals was all complicated scrolls. There were no pictures of anything, no wall hangings or painting. Only patterns, and always curves.

I don't recall Aridhol being so sinuous in nature the architecture at the very least.


Again I've always assumed differently. Rand had been holding the Power before, to raise the water from fountain, and I can't recall anywhere it saying he released it. From that I've always thought Rand had forced it to stand on edge so he could see which side was which then push it down on the face to ensure Mat didn't go in. He had always been trying to protect everyone before, why not then?

The thing is Rand said, "No", but he didn't make it clear which question he was replying to of Mat's.

He had no intention of trying to be an Aiel clan chief, though; the Aiel would probably stick spears through him. “We’ll leave it to luck,” he said, pulling the Tar Valon mark from his pocket. “Getting to be my lucky coin. Flame, I go in with you; head, I stay out.” He flipped the gold coin quickly, before Rand could object.
Somehow he missed grabbing it; the mark careened off his fingertrips, clinked to the pavement, bounced twice….And landed on edge.
He glared at Rand accusingly. “Do you do this sort of thing on purpose? Can’t you control it?”
“No.” The coin fell over, showing an ageless woman’s face surrounded by stars. “It looks like you stay out here, Mat.”

Either Mat's luck stopped/delayed him from enters the Arches to follow Rand, or Rand's ta'veren effect stopped Mat from entering those Arches.

We can guess that Rand did not at least willing stop Mat from coming with him into the arches, by manipulating Mat's gold coin knowingly.


It seems likely everything Mat doesn't want to become, the Pattern wants him to become: married to a Noble, becoming a Noble himself; dying and living again; helping an Aes Sedai (Moiraine) et al.

FelixPax
11-06-2009, 11:23 PM
No. The memories in Mat's head are not his past lives.

Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview


Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

Emphasis mine.

I appreciate this RJ interview, yet it seems like RJ evaded the specific question I had in mind about Mat's memories. Why? Because the questioners asked about "all" of Mat past memories, and RJ takes the bait then talks about the memories the Eelfinn implanted in him.

Yet RJ ignores referring to the expression of Mat's memories as shown by him speaking the 'Old Tongue' before Mat even went to Rhuidean and received other individual's memories from the Eelfinn.

Not to mention separate memories Mat has before asking any questions to the Aelfinn:

He saw no one except his silent guide; he could have believed the place empty except for the two of them. From somewhere he had a dim memory of walking halls that had not known a human foot in hundreds of years, and this felt the same. Yet sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye.

Mat seems to have his own distant memories AND other individuals past memories in his own head.

Azure Skeith
11-06-2009, 11:45 PM
He saw no one except his silent guide; he could have believed the place empty except for the two of them. From somewhere he had a dim memory of walking halls that had not known a human foot in hundreds of years, and this felt the same. Yet sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye.

This quote has nothing to do with the structural similarities between two places. If it did, it would use ...this looked the same... rather than felt. Felt in this case, to me at least, means the sensation you get when you are at a certain place, like how Ogier can sense the feel of a place.

Do the Aelfinn think of Rand and Mat as "seekers", in the same vein as the Tinker leaders are called "Seekers" by Elyas, Perrin in the story?

Rand we know by Aiel blood, but does Mat have Aiel blood as well? Are both "seekers"?

Yes, but not in that way. They are seekers of knowledge, questioners searching for answers. While I have to admit I've never thought of it along the lines of the Traveling People before, I can't agree with it now that I have thought on it for a bit.

Either Mat's luck stopped/delayed him from enters the Arches to follow Rand, or Rand's ta'veren effect stopped Mat from entering those Arches.

We can guess that Rand did not at least willing stop Mat from coming with him into the arches, by manipulating Mat's gold coin knowingly.

Again, I have to disagree. Rand says no ambiguously, with no clear meaning to what he is disagreeing with, yes. But I take that to mean along the lines of him just voicing aloud his sentiment that he does not want Mat to risk it. The last bit I assume to be him attempting to cover his tracks and let Mat think it was taver'en work and not his own action.

Weird Harold
11-06-2009, 11:54 PM
I appreciate this RJ interview, yet it seems like RJ evaded the specific question I had in mind about Mat's memories. Why? Because the questioners asked about "all" of Mat past memories, and RJ takes the bait then talks about the memories the Eelfinn implanted in him.

Yet RJ ignores referring to the expression of Mat's memories as shown by him speaking the 'Old Tongue' before Mat even went to Rhuidean and received other individual's memories from the Eelfinn.

I don't think that RJ Avoided that question at all. Mat's Old Blood memories aren't of his past lives any more than the gift memories are. Old Blood is Memories from ancestors -- eg his spouting orders to Manetherens in the the old tongue strongly suggests he is descended from Aemon, the last King of Manatheren, but RJ's answer eliminates that memory as being because Mat is King Aemon Reborn.

(That doesn't mean Mat isn't Aeamon reborn, just that he doesn't have access to the Soul Memories from his past lives the way Rand does.)

nameless
11-07-2009, 12:13 AM
I hope it means Mat isn't Aemon reborn. Something about the same soul being recycled into the same family over and over again seems... unsanitary.

Crispin's Crispian
11-07-2009, 12:17 AM
That was so long ago EYE'd probably bet that the hamsters ate it. Never know though it might still be around somewhere.
Come to think of it, was it ever a theory, or did 'Seal just come up with it in chat? EYE can't remember.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 12:27 AM
I hope it means Mat isn't Aemon reborn. Something about the same soul being recycled into the same family over and over again seems... unsanitary.
It wouldn't have to be recycled over and over. It could be a low mileage Soul, just used once in this Age before Mat got it. :D

ckparrothead
11-27-2009, 01:56 AM
Feel free to shoot whatever holes in this that you like.

I'm just thinking about the connection between Rand and Ishamael. Ish always talks about how he and the Dragon have fought this battle hundreds and thousands of times, yadda yadda yadda. He was borderline psycho from his use of the True Power, everyone knew it, but whatever.

It's been discussed to death how the health of the land is tied directly in with the Dragon. He's the Fisher King. We get that.

So now we finally look at the ebb and flow of the health of the Blight. What if it's tied to Ishamael?

The first time we get a hint of the Blight retracting was after the battle at the Eye. What did Rand do there? Well, he did kill Aginor. But more importantly, after a brief stopover to give some Trollocs lessons on surfing 20 foot waves of earth, he goes and faces off with Ish in some room, and ends up burning him with some sword of light or something like that. In TGH, Ish's skin is all red and cracked, burned, etc. So after Rand gets done doing this he goes back to the Eye and that's when people are like, WTF, the Blight feels different. Moiraine, being Moiraine, says we struck a great blow to the Dark One today.

Fast forward and we go to TSR and the Blight has retreated a full 2 miles. What the hell just happened before that? Well, there was the fact that Ishamael just DIED.

Since then Ish was reborn as Moridin of course, and his schemes against Rand have begun to take hold and sure enough, the Blight starts creeping back out and we see a sign in TGS that the Blight is bigger than ever. Why? As Robert Jordan once put it, the Dark One is winning. The Light is on the ropes.

We've already seen in TGH how a battle between Rand & Ish turns metaphorical, with the Seanchan (being led by a Darkfriend) fighting strong against the Horn Heros every time Ish has Rand on the ropes, and the opposite happening when Rand claims the upper hand.

I would think that metaphorical dynamic is being set up in multiple ways, with the health of the land and the health of the Blight being directly tied in with how the fight is going between Rand and Ishamael, not necessarily Rand and the Dark One.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the Blight swallowed up Malkier, wasn't that the direct result of one of Ishamael's schemes during one of the times when he was allowed to walk the earth?

Anyway, that's what I was thinking.

Two other things that ALWAYS bothered me...

1. Who the eff is the dude that talks to Rand in Tarwin's Gap at the end of of TEotW? "IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL. IT IS NOT HERE." Seriously, WTF? The Creator has been worse than an absentee dad in this whole series, and we're just to assume it's not significant that he actually seemed to talk directly to Rand in the first book?

2. And for another thing, I know people went over this in the good ole WOT FAQ but what about the "third man"? In TPOD there's clear reference to a third face that Rand sees in the mirror in his dreams, blurry but vaguely familiar. Lews Therin keeps ranting in TPOD and WH about how "the three of us" are destroyers and whatnot. How does this relate to the pivotal scene in TGS just as Rand channels the True Power, he sees "A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment."? For that matter, how does it relate to Verin's assertion that "I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

I wonder if any of that relates to the Blight being connected with Ishamael, who seems to be the only among the "Chosen" that has never been mired in petty squabbles and selfishness.

Terez
11-27-2009, 03:50 AM
Feel free to shoot whatever holes in this that you like.

I'm just thinking about the connection between Rand and Ishamael. Ish always talks about how he and the Dragon have fought this battle hundreds and thousands of times, yadda yadda yadda. He was borderline psycho from his use of the True Power, everyone knew it, but whatever.

It's been discussed to death how the health of the land is tied directly in with the Dragon. He's the Fisher King. We get that.

So now we finally look at the ebb and flow of the health of the Blight. What if it's tied to Ishamael?
Good theory. I like it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the Blight swallowed up Malkier, wasn't that the direct result of one of Ishamael's schemes during one of the times when he was allowed to walk the earth?
Not that we know of. Isam disappeared around the same time, but Luc didn't disappear till about 15 years later or something, and the earliest action we know of from Ishamael in living memory is him making Alviarin Head of the Black not long after Rand was born (which was a few years after Luc disappeared).

Two other things that ALWAYS bothered me...

1. Who the eff is the dude that talks to Rand in Tarwin's Gap at the end of of TEotW? "IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL. IT IS NOT HERE." Seriously, WTF? The Creator has been worse than an absentee dad in this whole series, and we're just to assume it's not significant that he actually seemed to talk directly to Rand in the first book?
We hope there is more to come on this. But yeah, the Creator doesn't interfere, but dude is basically just saying he's not going to interfere. So, yeah it's a big deal that the Creator talked to him, but as far as what it might mean, we don't know.

2. And for another thing, I know people went over this in the good ole WOT FAQ but what about the "third man"? In TPOD there's clear reference to a third face that Rand sees in the mirror in his dreams, blurry but vaguely familiar. Lews Therin keeps ranting in TPOD and WH about how "the three of us" are destroyers and whatnot. How does this relate to the pivotal scene in TGS just as Rand channels the True Power, he sees "A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment."? For that matter, how does it relate to Verin's assertion that "I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."
It's Moridin. Apparently he and Rand are linked via the balefire incident in Shadar Logoth. It's mentioned in the prologue of The Gathering Storm, when Ishamael notes that he is feeling some weird effects from Rand's lost hand, and it's also noted that Rand has weird thoughts that he can't attribute to Lews Therin, such as the thought about how the Creator made many worlds, and let them flower or die, but didn't weep for the blossoms that fell.....that's Ishamael's philosophy in a nutshell. It's also assumed by a lot of folks that this link is how Rand was able to draw the True Power.

ckparrothead
11-27-2009, 11:56 AM
Which book was the balefire incident again? I forget what happened exactly.

I'm thinking that whatever happened was more a symptom of the connection between the Dragon and Ishamael, rather than something that caused a connection from then on.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 12:12 PM
It was in aCoS, since it happened when Rand defeated Sammael, thus gaining said crown.

treespring
11-27-2009, 04:11 PM
Assuming Verin is right and that selfishness is the quality most valued by the DO in the Forsaken, does this mean Ishmael was named Naeblis because he is not selfish? I.E. alone amongst them in selflessly trying to promote the DO's goals?

Or does this mean he is the most selfish? As in he wants to promote the DO's goals because it will finally eradicate the pattern and end his life from being spun out again?

ckparrothead
11-27-2009, 04:17 PM
What if it wasn't really the Dark One that chose Ishamael, but the Pattern that chose for him?

Weird Harold
11-27-2009, 05:52 PM
What if it wasn't really the Dark One that chose Ishamael, but the Pattern that chose for him?
Given the Cosmology of the WOT, the Pattern pretty much does get to choose who the DO's minions are.

padfoot89
11-28-2009, 03:40 AM
Assuming Verin is right and that selfishness is the quality most valued by the DO in the Forsaken, does this mean Ishmael was named Naeblis because he is not selfish? I.E. alone amongst them in selflessly trying to promote the DO's goals?

Or does this mean he is the most selfish? As in he wants to promote the DO's goals because it will finally eradicate the pattern and end his life from being spun out again?

This is actually quite interesting. If Ishamael is being woven as a counter to the Dragon every single time, it gives a personal motive to end it all once and for all. None of the other Forsaken AFAIK have to play out similar roles every time.
In a way, Ishamael is trapped in similar way as the Dark One. We saw Rand getting sick of it at the end of TGS and nearly ending it himself. Atleast Dragon ends up having glory in some of the turnings while Ishamael probably ends up getting spectacularly killed every time.
So does this mean that Ishamael realized his role in this fight by philosophizing or did the Pattern interfere and give him a heads up ?

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2009, 05:59 AM
I don't think that Ishamael is the Shadow's champion each time. I do think that the DO is willing to let Ishamael believe that, though.

Terez
11-28-2009, 07:08 AM
I don't think that Ishamael is the Shadow's champion each time. I do think that the DO is willing to let Ishamael believe that, though.
Maybe not every single time, but according to Brandon, Rand's soul is often woven together with Moridin's. He actually compared them to Birgitte and Gaidal. I assume that the times they aren't woven together is in the Ages where there is no struggle against the Dark One. Or perhaps they are lovers in those Ages...

Terez
11-28-2009, 07:24 AM
Which book was the balefire incident again? I forget what happened exactly.

I'm thinking that whatever happened was more a symptom of the connection between the Dragon and Ishamael, rather than something that caused a connection from then on.
Meh, the sickness and visions of the face don't start until after that. All the evidence says the balefire incident is responsible for the link between them - not the eternal link between them, but the specific one that they've got now.

Anyway, balefire incident is in the very last chapter of A Crown of Swords, entitled...'A Crown of Swords'. :)

nameless
11-28-2009, 11:15 AM
This is actually quite interesting. If Ishamael is being woven as a counter to the Dragon every single time, it gives a personal motive to end it all once and for all. None of the other Forsaken AFAIK have to play out similar roles every time.
In a way, Ishamael is trapped in similar way as the Dark One. We saw Rand getting sick of it at the end of TGS and nearly ending it himself. Atleast Dragon ends up having glory in some of the turnings while Ishamael probably ends up getting spectacularly killed every time.
So does this mean that Ishamael realized his role in this fight by philosophizing or did the Pattern interfere and give him a heads up ?

He might be woven counter to the Dragon every time the Dark One is about to break free, but we don't know what if anything goes on with their threads in Ages when no one remembers the Dark One. Remember Hawkwing's comment in tGH that he's fought against LTT as many times as alongside him. It seems possible that Lews Therin and Elan Morin might end up on the same side of a fight of freedom (chaos) against tyranny (order).

Spasmodean
11-28-2009, 12:52 PM
Maybe not every single time, but according to Brandon, Rand's soul is often woven together with Moridin's. He actually compared them to Birgitte and Gaidal. I assume that the times they aren't woven together is in the Ages where there is no struggle against the Dark One. Or perhaps they are lovers in those Ages...

So does that make THIS turning of the wheel more significant because Elan has been alive to face 2 Dragon's?

Yuri33
11-28-2009, 05:20 PM
He's not facing two Dragons, he's facing one Dragon and one Dragon Reborn. Only one Dragon soul.

Davian93
11-28-2009, 05:43 PM
He's not facing two Dragons, he's facing one Dragon and one Dragon Reborn. Only one Dragon soul.

Spas meant (I assume) that he had now faced two dragons (LTT in the AoL and Rand in the Third Age).

Thus, two separate Dragons. Of course Elan believes that he's always faced the Dragon and that he simply doesn't remember it as he's always been the Champion of the Shadow.

Trutino
11-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Spas meant (I assume) that he had now faced two dragons (LTT in the AoL and Rand in the Third Age).

Thus, two separate Dragons. Of course Elan believes that he's always faced the Dragon and that he simply doesn't remember it as he's always been the Champion of the Shadow.

Yes, the interesting thing is that it's usually not the same iteration of Shadow Champion operating in back to back ages. That said, has the dragon ever had so much access to his previous iteration's memories? That they both have a high level of access is interesting (though Rand has less access than Elan/Moridin) It seems a necessary balance that both would if one does and suggests that Rand might have fuller access to Lews Therin's memories in the next two books. (perhaps due to the Dragonmount episode.

Davian93
11-28-2009, 06:08 PM
Yes, the interesting thing is that it's usually not the same iteration of Shadow Champion operating in back to back ages. That said, has the dragon ever had so much access to his previous iteration's memories? That they both have a high level of access is interesting (though Rand has less access than Elan/Moridin) It seems a necessary balance that both would if one does and suggests that Rand might have fuller access to Lews Therin's memories in the next two books. (perhaps due to the Dragonmount episode.

Rand already has pretty much full access to LTT. The Dragonmount event seemed to be a temporary event that gave him momentary access to all his lives (think of it like the Aiel Wise Ones rings where he might remember fragments) and basically to keep him from offing himself. That's the consensus so far at least. (A pattern level event akin to the vision in the sky at Falme).

Terez
11-29-2009, 12:31 AM
It's just one person vs. one other person, especially now that Rand's got Lews Therin's memories. Lews Therin has a new body, and so does Ishamael...

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 05:23 AM
RJ has said that it is an especially unique/important Turn of the Wheel. Yes, things happen now that have never happened before, but that is always the case. The turning of the Wheel is not really a perfect circle, it is more like a spiral.

Terez
11-29-2009, 08:23 AM
RJ has said that it is an especially unique/important Turn of the Wheel.
Wat?

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 08:33 AM
Is, isn't, makes no difference in the long term, does it?