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legends be wrought
11-06-2009, 06:21 PM
I find it sort of strange not to have seen a lot of chatter dedicated to theories on Egwene’s next actions. How the White Tower interacts with Rand will, of course, be critical to the plot of the final two books. I’ve seen some talk of Egwene and the White Tower on some threads but haven’t seen them all so I apologize if this ends up being a duplicate thread. From what I’ve seen there is some difference of opinion, so we will see if this sparks any debate...

My thoughts:
-Egwene will want to let the entire Randland know that the White Tower is whole once more. This may or may not be seen as a good thing among nobles but should spark some hope in commoners.Speading the word should also be made easier by Travelling
-Egwene will force contact with Rand and will likely come out on top now that he seems to dropped some of his walls (TGS "Veins of Gold") and according to prophesy (something to the extent of "He will feel the Amyrlin’s anger"-> made by Elaida if im not mistaken)

-Egwene makes reference to her ideas of dealing with Rand in a hypothetical situation proposed by three white sisters in TGS: In the White Tower (P.251-254)
"And so my next step would be to send sisters to him to offer guidance."
"And if he rejected them?"
"Then I'd send spies...and watch to see if he has changed from the man I once knew"
"Rand al'Thor is like a river...calm and placid when not agitated, but a furious and deadly current when squeezed too tightly.... Waiting to discover a man's temperament is not foolish, nor is it a sign of weakness. Acting without information is lunacy."
"If I were to deal with him, I would send a delegation to honour him...A group of three Aes Sedia, led by a Grey, accompanied by a Green and a Blue"
"Rand al'Thor is a good man, in his heart, but he needs guidance. These days are when we should have been at our most subtle."

-I believe that Egwene, as Amyrlin, will send this embassy of three sisters to Rand. However, she will do this more because it is expected rather than because it will be useful (lets be honest...Rand "honoured" by three sisters?->not a chance, although its better than 13). Where Egwene really has the advantage is the ability to communicate with those who are already in close proximity to Rand. This would be Wise Ones and Nynaeve (though her dreams and Dream World if she still has the ring).
Not only would Egwene be able to gain access to valuable knowledge on Rand (will that knowledge be pre-laughter or after laughter?->would make a huge difference on her response) but also be able to subtly direct Rand the way she wants. The Wise Ones respect Egwene and will do some favors and Nynaeve seemed scared to obedience last time Egwene put on the complete Amyrlin image in TAR. In all, Egwene will put more confidence into those she trusts completely and not her Aes Sedia.

-Egwene’s character has changed a fair amount throughout the series. She always adapts her attitude toward what is most needed. Examples: meek as a novice -> early on as compared to a demoted novice, and obedient (but scheming) apprentice with the wise-ones, intelligent and political as rebel Amyrlin, arrogant and defiant as prisoner novice. What is required of her now is for her to lose some of her arrogance and become the symbol of wisdom. She will do what is required, and we will likely see another minor personality shift in her.

-My final thought is that if any of this happens, it will be from a POV other than that of the White Tower. Most likely through the Wise Ones. Egwene’s plot has been mostly used up, at least for the Towers of Midnight.


-Just to throw it out there: I think Cadsuane would want to use someone who (her equal) Sorilea gives very high praise to, AND is the new Amyrlin of the whole White Tower. I seem to remember Amys distinguishing Egwene in TGS as still trustworthy. With traveling available or Nynaeve’s dream ter’angreal (if she still has it), it is possible that Cadsuane may want to meet with Egwene or vice versa if Egwene learns that that Cadsuane is the new primary advisor (the Wise Ones probably wont mention the “if Rand sees her face problem”). I’d love to see that confrontation. Maybe they can deflate each other a bit, although Cadsuane has already been trampled by Tam.

Terez
11-06-2009, 06:29 PM
There are a couple of other possibilities beyond making contact with Rand (which we know will happen):

1. She'll try to recover captured Aes Sedai from the Seanchan.
2. She'll try to recover missing Aes Sedai from the Black Tower (though she might try to do this through Rand).

In any case, she still has to meet up with that Seanchan woman. She has a dream where she's confronting Rand, and one of the women with her is a Seanchan, in addition to the one where the Seanchan woman with a sword saves her from something.

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 06:48 PM
In any case, she still has to meet up with that Seanchan woman. She has a dream where she's confronting Rand, and one of the women with her is a Seanchan, in addition to the one where the Seanchan woman with a sword saves her from something.

The Seanchan woman could be any of the sul'dam or possible some of the assassins that possibly get captured and healed. Although I still hold to my theory that the Seanchan woman saving Egwene is the rebirth of Amaresu and that it takes place at some point after the series, it makes far more sense for it in fact to mirror Egwene's struggle to reunite the Tower (the Mountain) and was aided in doing so by the Seanchan woman with the sword (the attack).

1Powerslave
11-06-2009, 08:38 PM
Maybe Egwene's delegation inquiring about the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower that has not returned will set in moition operation Black Tower clean up.

Can Egwene's embassy really arrive pre-laughter? We followed Rand closely with no indication of an embassy.

I don't see Egwene trying to recover Aes Sedai from the Black Tower directly, she knows how Elaida fared when taking initiatives towards the Black Tower.

Will the Amyrlin be obligated to try to rescue Aes Sedai from the Seanchan? I think the Hall will have to have a sitting regarding this. Will Egwene argue vehemently for rescue or will she argue that they are lost now? What a headache for Rand if Egwene lanches an attack against the Seanchan. :)
Though I guess he can plead that they are not under his control.

Regarding the Wise Ones, they will not give away much to Egwene. They will only speak if it serves the Aiel or the Car'a'carn. Letting Egwene know some things about Rand might serve that. We saw how restrictive the Wise Ones were with Egwene last time they met in TAR (with Egwene as Amyrlin), they told her almost nothing I believe.

It will be interesting to follow Cadsuane's reaction to the embassy. I doubt she will want to give up anything that loses her influence over Rand. She thinks she knows best how to save the world by guiding the Dragon Reborn. She'll find some way out of obeying the Amyrlin's orders that the embassy delivers.
In essence, she'll have given up on guiding Rand as an advisor if she talks much with the embassy I think.
Rand might forbid her to speak.

Where will Nynaeve's loyalty lie? Will she think that Egwene has gone too far at some point?

I think this all will eventually end up in a meeting between Rand and Egwene with their entorages in a neutral place, or in the Stone. Or will Rand be cocky enough to enter the Tower?
Egwene will insist that Rand needs guidance and that the Tower is very important and that the Tower needs to call the shots in Tarmon Gaidon, certainly they wont take orders on where and how to fight from the Dragon Reborn.
Rand will try to make her see that they need to get themselves in line for a unified army of the Light, e.g. take his orders when the time comes.
Egwene will grow frustrated with Rand and tell him to stop being such a wool head. Around this time I think it will come up what it is to be the Dragon Reborn, that it involves having all the memories that the Dragon had. But I think that the Tower representatives and Egwene still wont be sufficiently awed to think Rand qualified to make decisions for them.


Another thing I think that Egwene should do is organising the Aes Sedai for battle. That is divided them into battle formations, similar to companies, squads, etc. And to give out ranks other than Sitter and Ajah head, and strength in the power. Ranks similar to those of an army.
A squad might consist as follows:

Squad leader: Someone selected by the Hall that is judged competent and fearless, of any Ajah. Commands the squad regardless of individual's strength.
Squad Healer: A Yellow
First male channeler expert: A Red
Second male channeler expert: A Red
Battle expert, Warder source: A Green
Battle expert, Warder source: A Green
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left

This might be an allround squad. Squads may of course look differently if the enemy is non-channeler, female-channeler, or male-channeler. It is also important that the squads, however they are chosen, be of all of the Ajahs. I also think this organisation should be used to unite and heal the Tower. Therefore all squads must eat and sleep together (heh), as a part of the healing process across the Ajahs.

Besides organising they should also train for battle. I want Egwene to set up a training ground somewhere outside the island on field. And that Every Aes Sedai is ordered to attend there for two hours every other day, or something, to blow things up, practice fireballs and lightning and whatever battle weaves that are not suited to do inside the Tower or on Tower grounds.

All Accepted should be taking the test for Aes Sedai as soon as possible. All training that is not related to battle (i.e. studying past Amyrlins, history etc.) should be dropped for Novices and Accepted. All training should focus on the Power and how to kill with it. All Accepted and Novices should be forced, like at the Black Tower.
Novices and Accepted should be assigned to Aes Sedai or certain squads of Aes Sedai to be power sources for circles led by Aes Sedai.

So there are quite a lot of decrees and decisions in the Hall that I would LIKE for Egwene to do.

Also I think that she should delegate the reswearing of Oaths for new sisters that arrive to the Tower to the Red Ajah in an effort to steer them towards another purpose.

The Seanchan woman could be any of the sul'dam or possible some of the assassins that possibly get captured and healed. Although I still hold to my theory that the Seanchan woman saving Egwene is the rebirth of Amaresu and that it takes place at some point after the series, it makes far more sense for it in fact to mirror Egwene's struggle to reunite the Tower (the Mountain) and was aided in doing so by the Seanchan woman with the sword (the attack).
I think that interpretation is a good one. One could see the direct change of support for Egwene with Adelorna. Would Egwene been forced to attack the Tower if not for Adelorna?

ShadowbaneX
11-06-2009, 09:29 PM
I think that interpretation is a good one. One could see the direct change of support for Egwene with Adelorna. Would Egwene been forced to attack the Tower if not for Adelorna?

And she saved her from an a'dam although I believe she was having an impact before that happened.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2009, 04:21 AM
Now that Rand has LTT's memories, he actually is a full Aes Sedai. Egwene can't deny that without denying that he is the DR, and yet she can't claim authority over a male AS from the AOL either. So she is in for a bit of a problem there, it would seem.
Won't stop her from trying to bully Rand, of course.

As for the Seanchan woman who saves Egwene:
I think that Mesaana is still in the Tower. At some point, she will capture Egwene, and be on the verge of killing her. Then a female assassin stabs her in the back, and yet another Forsaken dies.

Terez
11-07-2009, 04:30 AM
As for the Seanchan woman who saves Egwene:
I think that Mesaana is still in the Tower. At some point, she will capture Egwene, and be on the verge of killing her. Then a female assassin stabs her in the back, and yet another Forsaken dies. Yeah, Mesaana is a good bet for Egwene's next date with the chopping block. But she still has to be saved by a Seanchan woman with a sword, and also by someone who is running (which everyone thinks will be Gawyn - the viewings/dreams that involve him for certain don't seem to have played out yet).

I imagine that Gawyn's crucial moment will have something to do with Rand. It pretty much has to, as that's Gawyn's only discernible fault. Maybe Rand can help Egwene, but Gawyn will have to ask him? But Gawyn would have to still be ignorant of Morgase, and Rand as well. Perhaps the Tower confrontation will happen before the Caemlyn reunion?

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 10:44 AM
Yeah, Mesaana is a good bet for Egwene's next date with the chopping block. But she still has to be saved by a Seanchan woman with a sword, and also by someone who is running (which everyone thinks will be Gawyn - the viewings/dreams that involve him for certain don't seem to have played out yet).
Well, it's been mentioned that the "Seanchan woman with a sword" may have been a metaphor for the attack, so we might be done with that one.

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:09 AM
Well, it's been mentioned that the "Seanchan woman with a sword" may have been a metaphor for the attack, so we might be done with that one.
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.

Davian93
11-07-2009, 11:31 AM
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.

Well, its debatable. It could be either.

Belazamon
11-07-2009, 11:44 AM
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
That's mostly why I brought it up again, on the off-chance that she was trying. ;)

Enigma
11-07-2009, 12:58 PM
Egwene will probably try to establish some sort of contact with Rand now that the WT is united. She will also need to get the word out to the 1/3 Aes Sedai who took no side and test them for being Black Ajah. She may also have a problem of the four surviving Seanchan supercommando's who could well have survived the attack who will continue on their mission to kill as many AS as they can before their ter'angreal rings kill them.

Terez
11-07-2009, 04:56 PM
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
No - there are other dreams that tie Egwene to a Seanchan woman. I've pointed that out before, also, but I think you are ignoring it.

nameless
11-07-2009, 05:53 PM
I think interpreting the "woman with a sword" dream as referring to the Seanchan attack would have a lot more merit if the attack had been orchestrated by a woman general instead of Yulan. Using the commander as metonym for the entire strike force makes sense. Using some random soldier? Less so. As for the dream of Gawyn running to save her, are we sure that didn't refer to his organizing a "rescue party?" Egwene was furious about it, but she didn't know that the rebel Black Ajah had been ordered to depose her and she repeatedly ignored Siuan's warnings that the rebel camp was starting to fracture without her. There's no telling what might have happened if she hadn't shown up when she did with Verin's list and nipped Sheriam's plans in the bud.

Terez
11-07-2009, 06:04 PM
As for the dream of Gawyn running to save her
The dream is of someone running to save her, not Gawyn. Gawyn is just a popular theory as to who that someone is. Here's the dream:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop. If not... In that corner of her mind, she felt a chill.
I suggested in another thread that this might have referred to Silviana, but the 'running' bit seems to disqualify that.

Here's the other dream of a Seanchan woman with Egwene:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

Tel'aran'rhiod still showed her little of immediate use. Sometimes there had been glimpses of Rand, or Mat, or Perrin, and more in her own dreams without the ter'angreal, but nothing of which she could make any sense. The Seanchan, who she refused to think about. Nightmares of a Whitecloak putting Master Luhhan in the middle of a huge, toothed trap for bait. Why should Perrin have a falcon on his shoulder, and what was important about him choosing between that axe he wore now and a blacksmith's hammer? What did it mean that Mat was dicing with the Dark One, and why did he keep shouting, "I am coming!" and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her? And Rand. He had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others? Rand in that dry, dusty chamber again, with those small creatures settling into his skin. Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. It was all too confusing. She had to stop thinking about Rand and the others and put her mind to what was right ahead of her. What is the Black Ajah up to? Why don't I dream something about them? Light, why can't I learn to make it do what I want?

And here's the other:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!
If not for the other dream, then the 'metaphor' interpretation might make more sense.

nameless
11-07-2009, 06:15 PM
My bad... I always get the running dream mixed up with the Gawyn at the crossroads dream.

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:13 PM
so any dream that Egwene has about any seanchan woman automatically mean it's gotta be the same one? That's weak Terez, very weak. Now if in the first one, the one with Rand had a wavering face, then yes, I'd say that there's a good chance of a relationship.

Just going on the notion that both of them happen to be Seanchan though is tenuous at best. The interpretation of the mountain climbing dream fits very well to Egwene's quest to reunite the Tower. The other is just that there's some Seanchan woman there and there's nothing to say that they're connected other then they're from the same place. There's gotta be hundreds of thousands of Seanchan women, and little chance that these two are connected.

So, yeah, I'm not ignoring the two dreams, just saying that there's about a one in a hundred thousand chance that they're connected.

Terez
11-07-2009, 11:30 PM
so any dream that Egwene has about any seanchan woman automatically mean it's gotta be the same one?
That's not what I said. But it makes a great deal of sense for it to be the same one.

Just going on the notion that both of them happen to be Seanchan though is tenuous at best.
Your idea of the woman being metaphorical is even more tenuous.

So, yeah, I'm not ignoring the two dreams, just saying that there's about a one in a hundred thousand chance that they're connected.
94% of statistics are made up on the spot. ;)

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:45 PM
no, but it's what you're implying. Egwene has a bunch of dreams, two of which feature Seanchan women, so they have to be the same one?

It's not more tenuous because the events of the dream can be rather nicely interpreted to fit the events of the attack and Egwene's quest to reunite the Tower. Egwene was struggling along a narrow, hazardous path, she had slipped (Elaida's accusation of her being a Dark Friend) and was in danger of falling, until the Seanchan attack occured, in which she was able to rally the novices, gather up some Accepted and Aes Sedai, save the Head of the Green from an a'dam which in turn she used to support Egwene becoming Amyrlin of the reunited Tower after said attack captured Elaida.

The dream she had of the shifty faced woman fits rather nicely with the events that happened, and if the woman of the other dream had any more characterics shared with the mountain woman, I'd say there might be some ground to stand on.

As it is, there's nothing to suggest a link other then a shared nation of birth and a gender.

As for the last, no, it wasn't made up on the spot, it was made up about 30 seconds before the spot, and isn't a statistic, more like some odds, and one in a hundred thousand is being generous, it's probably much less likely than that.

Terez
11-07-2009, 11:46 PM
no, but it's what you're implying.
No it isn't. I am implying that it is likely the same one, not that it is 'automatically' the same one.

Also, to steal Bela's sig quote.....

ShadowbaneX
11-07-2009, 11:57 PM
and I'm implying that it's (highly) unlikely it's the same one.

As for Bela's sig, my statement isn't an opinion, nor is it fact, it's just odds and the odds say the woman isn't the same.

Again, if they shared some characteristics, or there were only two Seanchan women left on the planet, then yes, it would be likely that they were the same woman. Since there are still thousands and thousands of Seanchan women alive and we have no characteristics to base this on, the odds of them being the same woman are astronomical, ergo, it is not likely that they are the same.

Terez
11-07-2009, 11:58 PM
As for Bela's sig, my statement isn't an opinion, nor is it fact, it's just odds and the odds say the woman isn't the same.
That's just your opinion. ;)

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 12:00 AM
That's just your opinion. ;) It's your opinion that it's my opinion.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:07 AM
Indeed. But you have no evidence to back up your assertion, so....

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 12:29 AM
Pot, kettle.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:31 AM
I'm not the one stating my opinion as fact. ;)

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 12:40 AM
Neither am I.

Terez
11-08-2009, 12:47 AM
Good for you.

Matoyak
11-08-2009, 12:51 AM
So that was a fun convo. As for what made me decide to post:
It pretty much has to, as that's Gawyn's only discernible fault.His only discernible fault? Really? :-/

Terez
11-08-2009, 01:09 AM
Well, besides being boring.

Matoyak
11-08-2009, 01:34 AM
Well, besides being boring.And an idiot who believes the first rumor he hears.

But besides being boring, having the IQ of a snail, hating Rand for something he didn't do and has people who would know better than him telling him he didn't do it, and believing the first rumor he hears, yeah, he's not so bad a guy. :cool: He reminds me of that asshat who George Lucas tried to claim was Anakin Skywalker in the prequel Star Wars films.

Lord Bloodpath
11-08-2009, 02:46 AM
Egwene has Verin's list of DO prophecies and various other strategies, goals, gameplans, and To-Do Lists.

This will put her in excellent position to tell the newly fused Dragon exactly where to stick his ideas of what is needed and who should listen to whom. Not that I particularly want it to turn out that way. I would love to see Egwene set down by Rand (just a little.) But I don't think I'll see that wish fulfilled. I'm so fed up with WT arrogance, but now that it is whole and the BA largely driven out, they really have a lot more cards to play.

Let's also not forget the crazy amount of New Blood Egwene is infusing the WT with. I'm sure Sharina will be AS lickety-split and will (help) organize the WT into some battle-oriented variation of Novice families. This will both help the WT to heal and be ready for another attack from the Seanchan, Black Tower, NeoDreadlordettes and/or TG.

First step- Consolidate. Assert control over the scattered AS. Let every sister know that she better A)get back to the WT or be hunted as BA (or have a good reason why not) B)let Egwene know exactly what she's seen/done lately that could help fix the land or prepare for TG and C)help get the WT back into shape. Playtime has ended.

Second step- Fix. Repair the WT. attempt to recapture lost AS. This will likely fail or be given up as a bad job. Thus we skip to Phase three- Profit! (j/k) She'll also put into effect whatever ideas Sharina comes up with in addition to her own ideas for how to mend and strengthen the WT.

Third step- Enact. Let the world see, not through some mealy-mouthed announcement, but through direct forceful presence and action, that the WT really is whole and more powerful than ever. Crush the plans of whatever DF's they can, all simultaneously (unless some high priority thing comes up that needs to be stopped first.) Get in touch with Rand, give him a piece of her mind as per prohecies, and establish some clear lines for how the WT will be dealing all the various groups of channelers. Exchange of info/resources/what-have-you, all while making sure the WT stays on top of everyone.

Also: Gawyn is a 'tard. there will be no reunion with mother until after TG if they both survive. He would be a thorn in the meeting between WT and DR so Egs will send him to Camelyn where Elayne will proceed to bitchslap him, perhaps taking turns with Birgitte. With any luck, this will turn him human again and we can stop hating him.

I'm clueless on this Seanchan with a sword thing. I kind of thought it was Egeanin originally. I also thought/still think that both dreams refer to the same person for the simple fact that there just aren't many Seanchan running around in the northeast and the assassins are very unlikely to turn from their mission. Being Healed from their rings would just dishonor them. I do think that they will drive home to all the AS just how valuable it is to have a warder and there will be a mass run on men everywhere as Whites and Browns start scooping them up like Greens and Greens start forming enough tactical squads to make an army of SWAT teams.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 10:55 AM
Indeed, good for everyone!

Huzzah!

Save now we're full circle and back to the point where we've got Egwene dreaming about a couple of Seanchan women. They've got three things in common: they're women, they're Seanchan and Egwene's Dreams feature them being in close proximity to her. All that said there are a great many Seanchan women that could come into close proximity to her, among them being Tuon, Alivia, Egeanin any of the sul'dam or damane that have been captured, and those are just the characters we know about. The likely or probable conclusion in this case is that the two women are not related and the interpretation that the Mountain Dream relates to Egwene reunited the Tower makes the most sense.

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2009, 11:01 AM
The climbing Seanchan with the sword could be Tuon. She became empress and at the same moment (as good as) gave the go ahead for the attack on the WT, which helped Egwene reach her own position as unchallenged Amyrlin.

Mort
11-08-2009, 11:42 AM
Save now we're full circle and back to the point where we've got Egwene dreaming about a couple of Seanchan women. They've got three things in common: they're women, they're Seanchan and Egwene's Dreams feature them being in close proximity to her. All that said there are a great many Seanchan women that could come into close proximity to her, among them being Tuon, Alivia, Egeanin any of the sul'dam or damane that have been captured, and those are just the characters we know about. The likely or probable conclusion in this case is that the two women are not related and the interpretation that the Mountain Dream relates to Egwene reunited the Tower makes the most sense.

I'm not a fan of the mountain dream having anything to do with the attack on the WT.

The mountain dream suggest that Egwene and a Seanchan woman (methaphorical or not) conciously help each other to reach their common goal. That does not sound like anything related to the attack on the Tower. The attack indirectly, and without any seanchan really knowing, helped Egwene ascend the Amyrlin Seat, thus reuniting the tower. Almost the opposite of what the attack was all about, mayhem and premtively taking out a future threat.

The attack on the WT was not a concious act to either help Egwene personally or moving toward a common goal shared between Egwene and some Seanchan of any kind.

Egwene can't even let herself trust a Seanchan at this point, she almost froze completely when they attacked. That trauma from being captured probably didn't get any better after that attack.

Whatever the dream means, it probably havn't happened yet.

And I wouldn't be so quick to say that because Egwene has had two dreams, both concerning a seanchan woman, the chances that this is one and the same woman is so improbable because there are so many Seanchan women to choose from.

One dream is about Egwene and a Seanchan woman help each other to reach their common goal. This usually require a certain level of trust, trust which Egwene has none of for the Seanchan at this point. The second dream is about Rand meeting Egwene and the women with her, one being Seanchan. This group of women seem to be of one agenda and the Seanchan being in Egwene's entourage. That definetly requires a level of trust.

I don't think that it's such a far stretch to think that given Egwene, who doesn't trust Seanchan at all, who either learns to trust one or are forced to, given some cirmcumstance, are later having this woman in her entourage.

The chances of Egwene learning to trust a seanchan at this time are pretty slim, but not impossible. The chances that Egwene would learn to trust TWO seanchan are fantastically low though. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Summary:
1. The mountain dream with seanchan woman with sword is not about the attack on the WT.

2. Because both dreams play on the element of trust between Egwene and the mystery seanchan woman, trust Egwene has very little reason to give to any seanchan, it makes more sense that the woman in both dreams are the same one.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 11:59 AM
True, but Terez is using the idea that the two women are the same so as to have the mountain climb be a literal event (at least that's what I think she's going for)ie, Egwene is literally falling off a mountain and some blurry faced Seanchan woman saves her and helps her up to the top of the Mountain. If the woman in the Dream is Tuon, well, ok, in that case they could be the same woman, but then the mountain is still a metaphore in this case, ie the reunification of the Tower, which is not what (I believe) Terez is saying.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm not entirely in favour of the idea either, I still like the idea that it's Amerasu (a Heroine of the Horn)reborn, hence the many faces, but the sword being very defined and consistant, but the interpretation just makes too much sense.

As for your interpretation, it's called enlightened self-interest. The Seanchan woman isn't looking to consciously help Egwene, she's looking to help herself, her actions just happen to help Egwene achieve reunification in the process of achieving her goal of attacking the Tower.

Specifically, Tuon is looking to strengthen her position in Randland by breaking the Tower, denying the Dragon Reborn the 'weapon' ie, the aftermath of the cleansing of saidin, denying him female channelers to aid his cause, to increase her own strength by gaining knowledge of the Aes Sedai and just gaining more damane.

The woman, if, in this case, it is Tuon, is looking to bolster her own positioning, but in doing so also helps Egwene at the same time.

Further, in the Dream, it's help Egwene doesn't want, but yet she gets anyway, ie she doesn't want the attack, but it does remove Elaida, and provides a rallying point, behind her, to reunite the Tower.

Another point on the issue of interpretation, the very last part of the book recites the Seanchan Prophecy of the Dragon Reborn standing on his own grave, blind and weeping, but finally regaining his sight. In all likelihood that Prophecy is refering to the events that happened on Dragonmount at the end of the book and they're metaphorical (at least parts about the blind and the seeing are).

We can have a massive debate on this, or if it's going to be Rand, blind, in Moridin's body standing on Rand's grave, but that's just a literal interpretation. In this case the events at the end of tGS fits very well and so that's likely the Prophecy coming to pass.

In this case, the events of the Dream, fit a little too well with an interpretation of actual events, to just let it go.

nameless
11-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Not really... again, "woman with sword" as a metaphor for "air raid" does not make very much sense unless there was a woman with a sword who was instrumental in the air raid. If the dream was of Seanchan soldiers in general the gender of the figure would have been indeterminate as well as the face. Furthermore, the dream showed Egwene falling into a crevasse before the Seanchan helped. The Fists of Heaven attack accelerated her consolidation of the Tower but she was already making significant progress even without it. The closest thing to a crevasse in her efforts was being locked in to a dungeon by Elaida, and she had already been released with no outside interference by the time the attack started.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 01:49 PM
the falling would more likely be her going off on Elaida and being accused of being a Darkfriend. The Seanchan removed Elaida for Egwene.

nameless
11-08-2009, 01:51 PM
That's what got her in the dungeon in the first place. They released her when Elaida decided to use Silviana as a scapegoat, completely alienating her sole remaining base of support in the process.

JSUCamel
11-08-2009, 02:27 PM
the falling would more likely be her going off on Elaida and being accused of being a Darkfriend. The Seanchan removed Elaida for Egwene.


I haven't thought extensively on this particular prophecy, but it seems to me that the sword, the mountain, the falling, etc., could all be metaphorical.

In that one dream, there's someone running for Egwene. It doesn't have to mean that someone will literally run to her aid, but that someone thinks she's in danger and is trying to save her. That appears to be Gawyn.

The mountain could mean any number of things. It could literally mean Dragonmount. It could metaphorically stand for her ascent to the White Tower. It could metaphorically stand for any number of things, including dealing with Rand (duty is heavier than a mountain).

The sword could mean a battle (a la Seanchan raid on White Tower), a sword fight, a verbal fight, a literal sword, or a proverbial sword.

I'm inclined to agree with whoever said the dreams were fulfilled by the Seanchan raid on the White Tower. Not sold 100% on it, but it seems to be the most likely, given the events that have occurred so far.

the silent speaker
11-08-2009, 09:30 PM
I see no reason why the person running can't be Silviana making haste to confront the Hall of the Tower about Elaida's illegal treatment of Egwene. If she acted fast enough, Elaida would be forced to release Egwene before the execution. If not, Egwene is dead before Silviana saves her. I think that one is fulfilled.

Terez
11-08-2009, 09:35 PM
True, but Terez is using the idea that the two women are the same so as to have the mountain climb be a literal event
Wrong.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 09:38 PM
Well, you're wrong too, so there!

Perhaps I should just get RS to spam this thread with cat picks...

Belazamon
11-08-2009, 09:54 PM
Perhaps I should just get RS to spam this thread with cat picks...
I didn't know cats could play the guitar.

ShadowbaneX
11-08-2009, 10:18 PM
oops, it's a secret or at least was. No I guess I'll have to kill you. Sorry Bela.

Terez
11-08-2009, 10:35 PM
Well, you're wrong too, so there!
Wrong about what I believe? lol...

Perhaps I should just get RS to spam this thread with cat picks...
Go ahead; show all the noobs how childish you are. I couldn't care less.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 08:35 AM
Go ahead; show all the noobs how childish you are. I couldn't care less.

pot, kettle ;)

Terez
11-09-2009, 08:39 AM
Whatever. As usual, I'm just trying to have an honest debate, and you're trying to turn it into something personal. It goes for every single post you've made in response to me for the last two or three years.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 11:19 AM
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

I love irony.

Marie Curie 7
11-09-2009, 12:29 PM
I'm not a fan of the mountain dream having anything to do with the attack on the WT.

The mountain dream suggest that Egwene and a Seanchan woman (methaphorical or not) conciously help each other to reach their common goal. That does not sound like anything related to the attack on the Tower. The attack indirectly, and without any seanchan really knowing, helped Egwene ascend the Amyrlin Seat, thus reuniting the tower. Almost the opposite of what the attack was all about, mayhem and premtively taking out a future threat.

The attack on the WT was not a concious act to either help Egwene personally or moving toward a common goal shared between Egwene and some Seanchan of any kind.

Egwene can't even let herself trust a Seanchan at this point, she almost froze completely when they attacked. That trauma from being captured probably didn't get any better after that attack.

Whatever the dream means, it probably havn't happened yet.

Yeah, I agree, Mort. You've stated the reasons that I don't believe that the dream of Egwene and the Seanchan woman on the mountain has been fulfilled. In fact, after the prologue was released, we had a discussion about the dream in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2267) even before the outcome of the Seanchan attack was known, and I argued the same thing there.

On the surface, it seems possible to correlate the mountain in the dream with Egwene's struggle to become Amyrlin of a united Tower. However, beyond that the correlation between the dream and the events of the Seanchan attack breaks down. The Seanchan woman in the dream offers to help Egwene, whereas the Seanchan attack just provided a catalyst that eventually led to Egwene being raised Amyrlin of the united Tower.

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

In the dream, the Seanchan woman not only offers to help Egwene, but she offers help to reach a goal that they both seem to want to reach ('we can reach the top together'). I can't see the Seanchan caring one bit about whether or not Egwene gained the Amyrlin seat of the united Tower. If the dream is supposed to be correlated with the Seanchan attack, then the Seanchan woman should have grabbed Egwene and booted her up the side of the mountain or something...

So, in my opinion, the dream is not fulfilled. The struggle up the mountain seems to me to have to correspond with something that it is important to both Egwene/Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, like working together for the Last Battle, for example. In that previous thread, I pointed out the reaction that I had to reading Tylee's thoughts in the prologue:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Prologue - What the Storm Means

We can't afford to be fighting these people, she thought. It was a rebellious thought, one she wouldn’t speak to Mishima. She didn’t even dare ponder it. The Empress, may she live forever, had declared that this land be reclaimed. Suroth and Galgan were the Empire's chosen leaders in the venture, until the Daughter of the Nine Moons revealed herself. While Tylee couldn't know the High Lady Tuon's thoughts, Suroth and Galgan were united in their desire to see this land subdued. It was practically the only thing they did agree upon.

None of them would listen to suggestions that they should be looking for allies among the people of this land, rather than enemies. Thinking about it was close to treason. Insubordination, at least. She sighed and turned to Mishima, prepared to give the order to begin scouting for a place to camp for the night.

This recalled to me Egwene's dream of the Seanchan woman offering help - Tylee is one of the few Seanchan who realizes that they should be working together with the Randlanders rather than against them. So perhaps Tylee has a role to play in bringing Seanchan and Randland together. In fact, later in TGS Tylee spoke out to Tuon about making allies with the Randlanders:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 19 - Gambits

"These last few weeks, I have seen many things that have given me thought," Tylee said. "Even before my troops were attacked, I was worried. The wisdom and grace of the Highest Daughter undoubtedly let her see further than one such as I, but I believe that our conquests so far in this land have been easy compared to what might come. If I may be so bold ... I believe that the Dragon Reborn and those associated with him may make better allies than enemies."

Now, we know that this conversation was part of what prompted Tuon to delay the ordered attack on the White Tower until after the meeting with Rand. After the meeting with him went so poorly, the attack went forward. So it will be interesting to learn what the Seanchan think about the White Tower attack and its successes and failures, and also to learn what the long-term impact of Tylee's comments about working together will be.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 02:32 PM
ok, let's look at it another way: what goal is still out there for the Seanchan and the Amyrlin Seat to hook up together to accomplish? Further, something that they'd both want to do? Control Rand?

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 02:47 PM
ok, let's look at it another way: what goal is still out there for the Seanchan and the Amyrlin Seat to hook up together to accomplish? Further, something that they'd both want to do? Control Rand?

Can't see any circumstances under which Egwene would broker with the Seanchan.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 03:40 PM
I can see one or two but they more or less involve hordes of Trollocs, Myrddraal and other Shadowspawn charging their position. The other, as I mentioned earlier, would be trying to control/'advise' Rand.

Any other potential situations that might reference this Dream? I mean if it's not the reunification of the Tower, it's gotta be something else? Even in the literal sense, why would Egwene be climbing a mountain?

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Maybe to coax Rand back down.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 03:51 PM
I think that's pretty much the same as 'advising' him or as Rand likes to think of it 'putting him in a box', and DAMN! this is a good apple. A little too soft for my tastes but very sweet! Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah, Rand, uhh, actually, that was about it. Oh, right, that's what I was thinking of, but that's supposed to go in another thread.

So, yeah, we've still got 'the enemy of my enemy' and Rand as two things the Seanchan and the Aes Sedai might work together for.

nameless
11-09-2009, 03:55 PM
Can't see any circumstances under which Egwene would broker with the Seanchan.

Well, the woman in the dream had a Seanchan accent, but that doesn't mean she was a loyal servant of the Empire. It could refer to a defector like Egeanin. What's more, Egwene's ultra-sadistic former sul'dam is currently on her way to the Tower to enroll as a novice, and Egwene will not be able to refuse her without undermining the new "open enrollment for everyone" policy. We've also met several former damane with Seanchan accents who might qualify, though it seems unlikely the dream refers to them since none of them carry weapons apart from the Source itself.

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 04:04 PM
Well, the woman in the dream had a Seanchan accent, but that doesn't mean she was a loyal servant of the Empire. It could refer to a defector like Egeanin. What's more, Egwene's ultra-sadistic former sul'dam is currently on her way to the Tower to enroll as a novice, and Egwene will not be able to refuse her without undermining the new "open enrollment for everyone" policy. We've also met several former damane with Seanchan accents who might qualify, though it seems unlikely the dream refers to them since none of them carry weapons apart from the Source itself.

I meant them as a whole rather than individuals. I'm sure she'll have no problem trying to integrate former damane, but the Seanchan have declared war on the Tower and i'm not sure that can be forgiven enough to warrant any arrangement.

Weird Harold
11-09-2009, 06:22 PM
What's more, Egwene's ultra-sadistic former sul'dam is currently on her way to the Tower ....

Renna was the sadistic sul'dam tasked with training Egwene. Bethamin and Seta are the two former suld'am turned novices. Both controlled Egwene as some point during her captivity at Falme, but Renna was the one portrayed as especially sadistic, and she had a fatal encounter with a crossbow bolt outside Jurador.

nameless
11-09-2009, 07:54 PM
Egwene mentions at one point that she can't decide whether Renna or Seta is worse, suggesting that they both went above and beyond when it came to hurting her.

FelixPax
11-09-2009, 08:13 PM
Marie Curie 7: I agree with your interpretation almost totally here, except for one set of points:

Yeah, I agree, Mort. You've stated the reasons that I don't believe that the dream of Egwene and the Seanchan woman on the mountain has been fulfilled. In fact, after the prologue was released, we had a discussion about the dream in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2267) even before the outcome of the Seanchan attack was known, and I argued the same thing there.

On the surface, it seems possible to correlate the mountain in the dream with Egwene's struggle to become Amyrlin of a united Tower. However, beyond that the correlation between the dream and the events of the Seanchan attack breaks down. The Seanchan woman in the dream offers to help Egwene, whereas the Seanchan attack just provided a catalyst that eventually led to Egwene being raised Amyrlin of the united Tower.

Good points here. :)

]In the dream, the Seanchan woman not only offers to help Egwene, but she offers help to reach a goal that they both seem to want to reach ('we can reach the top together'). I can't see the Seanchan caring one bit about whether or not Egwene gained the Amyrlin seat of the united Tower. If the dream is supposed to be correlated with the Seanchan attack, then the Seanchan woman should have grabbed Egwene and booted her up the side of the mountain or something...

There is one Seanchan who may indeed care about Egwene's future: Leilwin Shipless, who's longtime friend she freed from an adam, and who helped her escape from Ebou Bar with Mat. The very institution which likely will save Bethamin Zeami life after the adam, is now led by Egwene al'Vere. That friendship to Bethamin was importantly enough to Leilwin, to force her to flee from the Seanchan. Bethamin and Leilwin loyalty is towards the White Tower in full.

"My ship is being driven by different winds now, Master Cauthon," Leilwin said simply, turning from him and glancing at Bayle.

Leilwin's marriage to Bayle Domon is another major reason, for her change to the Aes Sedai side. As is her new friendship to Aludra.

So, in my opinion, the dream is not fulfilled. The struggle up the mountain seems to me to have to correspond with something that it is important to both Egwene/Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, like working together for the Last Battle, for example.

Here we have a parting of the ways, as the evidence points towards Leilwin Shipless, not Tylee helping Egwene/White Tower. Tylee role is important, yet Tylee remains a loyal Seanchan Low Blood officer while Leilwin Shipless is loyal to her friends Bethamin Zeami, Seta Zarbey, Aludra, Juilin and his her husband Bayle Domon. All of Leilwin's friends hate the adam and the enslavement of individuals forcefully, those beliefs are in parallel to Egwene's very own.

There is one more reason why Leilwin is likely to be connected to Egwene in the future, her own husband's knowledge about the Sea Folk belief systems and intentions. There is an entry in the eWoT website, mentioning that Bayle Domon, "notes that the Sea Folk only seem interested in searching for their Coramoor" (tEoW book, Chapter 24). Egwene currently seems to lack knowledge about the Sea Folk to the degree, which Bayle Domon has as a former commercial competitor has.

Bayle Domon might just be the very first character to mention the Sea Folk in the whole series (TEotW,Chapter 24) , unless you count the New Spring book. I doubt that Bayle's role with the Sea Folk was an accident here.

The couple of Leilwin and Bayle each have unique knowledge about the Seanchan and Sea Folk societies, gained from a different vantage point than the captured Sul'dam, Damane have because of their past jobs. Only Talaan likely has information which may rival what Bayle has about the Sea Folk clans, but Talaan's information would be different too because of her extended families positions.


This recalled to me Egwene's dream of the Seanchan woman offering help - Tylee is one of the few Seanchan who realizes that they should be working together with the Randlanders rather than against them. So perhaps Tylee has a role to play in bringing Seanchan and Randland together. In fact, later in TGS Tylee spoke out to Tuon about making allies with the Randlanders:

Yes, Tylee should have a role to play but why not on the Seanchan Empire's side of the equation? Tylee is a loyalist to the Empress, while Leilwin is a traitor in Tuon's own view.

We know Perrin is in Ghealdan from Cadsuane's comments in tGS, so why wouldn't Tylee have a role to play in the future with engagements with Perrin again in Ghealdan? Perrin did say Ghealdan going to remain free of the Seanchan Empire. Tylee knew about Two Rivers being a tough place to attack in the KoD book, as well. The Seanchan are already at the borders of both Two Rivers and Ghealdan, as of tGS.


Lastly, Leilwin wears a sword in the very same manner as the Seanchan woman in Egwene's Dream on that mountain side; while Tylee doesn't wear her sword in this manner that of know of.

Yuri33
11-09-2009, 08:26 PM
So, in my opinion, the dream is not fulfilled. The struggle up the mountain seems to me to have to correspond with something that it is important to both Egwene/Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, like working together for the Last Battle, for example.

You reasoning against the WT attack fulfilling the dream is quite strong, but the alternative you propose, or others similar to it (controlling Rand, subduing the BT, etc.) also have a problem as well. The full passage, which you didn't quote, is well known to all of us:

CoT, In the Night:
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.
Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.
Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!

The problem with things like cooperation for the Last Battle, or even conspiring to influence Rand, is that this represents a goal/struggle of the WT institution as a whole, and not Egwene herself. The entire dream is very personal, including the small amount of Egwene's own interpretation of it, which we know to be just as valid as the dream itself.

Given that the very personal struggle of Egwene becoming the Amrylin of the unified WT is over, the question is, what more is there for Egwene as an individual to struggle through? It seems like just about everything left for Egwene to do will largely be in her role as the representative of the WT, and her personal motivations will likely mirror the WT's motivations. The only truly personal struggle left at this point that I can think of is resolving her issues with Gawyn, but I highly doubt a Seanchan (or Seanchan army) will be involved with that, and it certainly doesn't match the "cliff" in the dream.

FelixPax
11-09-2009, 08:59 PM
You reasoning against the WT attack fulfilling the dream is quite strong, but the alternative you propose, or others similar to it (controlling Rand, subduing the BT, etc.) also have a problem as well. The full passage, which you didn't quote, is well known to all of us:

...

The problem with things like cooperation for the Last Battle, or even conspiring to influence Rand, is that this represents a goal/struggle of the WT institution as a whole, and not Egwene herself. The entire dream is very personal, including the small amount of Egwene's own interpretation of it, which we know to be just as valid as the dream itself.

If the "entire dream is very personal", then why does it expressly state that the sword is "as solid as stone"?
Do you claim that this particular part is an interpretation only?
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Leilwin's own sigil includes a sword, according eWoT website as well. Just chance? ;)

And there is a mountain in the Black Hills, with a very large unknown item of the Power on its side.

Yuri33
11-09-2009, 09:09 PM
I think you're confusing the concepts of personal and literal.

Edit: Are the TL boards loading really slowly for anyone else right now?

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 09:25 PM
if we want to go by wavy face and solid as stone weapon then a Hero of the Horn makes the most sense. Birgitte has worn countless faces over the aons, but always weilds a silver bow. Amerasu is a Hero of the Horn and wields the Sword of the Sun, a person who's face changes with each new birth but always weilds the sword. It's a perfect fit for the character, but it doesn't fit with the dream since even if Amerasu were spun out immediately after the Battle at Falme, she'd still only be a child...unless of course this dream takes place years in the future.

With the face constantly shifting it's unlikely to be a single person, so it's more likely to be a group of people, in this case the Seanchan in general...and, well, I've been over the rest, so I'll spare us all, me from having to write it again and everyone else from having to read it again.

Trutino
11-09-2009, 11:47 PM
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Although I believe this has been discussed before, the above is a good description of Dragonmount, something that we have pretty good reason to believe will erupt soon. We also know Egwene has a good ability with earth. I don't know how the Seanchan fit in, though some of their damane have good ability with earth also. I suppose she could also just use an Asha'man. Anyway, just wanted to toss this in.

Lord Bloodpath
11-10-2009, 12:04 PM
If not for that wavering face, I would say there is almost no doubt it is Leilwhin. Frankly, she is at this point the only Seanchan who could possibly work with marathe damane who are actively trying to control events/nations (which was the original reason channelers were leashed or the exact situation the adam was created to prevent.)

I think the mountain is just a metaphor for the struggle against the DO in general. The path that Egs tries to take is the only path she's got but it's a sucky path that doesn't even lead straight to the summit. Someone will come along when that path becomes impossible to pursue and is in danger of killing her and show her a more direct way that she could never have taken on her own.

I think the path represents guiding the various forces of the Light, and scaling the mountain directly represents attacking the Shadow militarily.

Enigma
11-11-2009, 10:18 AM
The only problem I have with the woman being Leilwhin is that I don't think Leiwhin has shown any inclination to meddle in the affairs of the might.

She tried to take charge of Mat's gang after the escape from Ebou Dar but I think that was more from her not realising that he was actually compitent as a leader.

After that she seems to have settled in for the ride. Her short tenure as a noble seems to have made her hesitate to dabble with control of groups again.

Why then would she head off and try to help Egwene of all people?

Terez
11-11-2009, 01:07 PM
The only way I can see her ending up at the Tower is if she tags along with Mat when he goes to fetch the Horn.

Lord Bloodpath
11-11-2009, 01:26 PM
The fortunes of war are very hard to predict. I agree that the encounter looks unlikely.

I wonder though, whether she will accompany the AS when they leave Mat's band.... She said that her sails are filled by a different wind now (or however she said it.) I have little doubt she did not mean Mat. She could have meant Domon, but even then, neither Mr. nor Mrs. Bayle are really all that good at keeping their heads down and staying out of trouble. The Pattern likes them.....

Spasmodean
11-11-2009, 08:43 PM
I believe that ultimatley the Amyrlin's next move should/will be to mobilise the tower into some semblance of military order and begin to actually prepare seriously for the coming conflict.

The devil is in the details and like others before me I believe we will see a large influx of new sisters/accepted now that the Tower is whole again, however I don't think there will be (relatively) much debate or infighting going on due to this as we are all well aware what happens when the Hall stands for War :)

Marie Curie 7
11-12-2009, 12:01 AM
There is one Seanchan who may indeed care about Egwene's future: Leilwin Shipless, who's longtime friend she freed from an adam, and who helped her escape from Ebou Bar with Mat. The very institution which likely will save Bethamin Zeami life after the adam, is now led by Egwene al'Vere. That friendship to Bethamin was importantly enough to Leilwin, to force her to flee from the Seanchan. Bethamin and Leilwin loyalty is towards the White Tower in full.

Well, that point might provide some motivation for Egeanin/Leilwin to care about Egwene, except for the fact that Egeanin and Bethamin were not lifelong friends - Bethamin made that up. Though Bethamin had known Egeanin for about ten years, Bethamin thought of Egeanin as an acquaintance only:

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

"You have been asking questions about a ship captain named Egeanin Sarna," he said. "Why?"

Hope faltered with a thud she could feel in her chest. "I was looking for an old friend," she quavered. The best lies always contained as much truth as possible. "We were at Faime together. I don't know whether she survived." Lying to a Seeker was treason, but she had committed her first treason in deserting during the battle at Falme.

"She lives," he said curtly. He sat down on the end of the bed without taking his eyes from her. They were blue, and made her want her cloak back. "She is a hero, a Captain of the Green, and the Lady Egeanin Tamarath, now. Her reward from the High Lady Suroth. She is also here in Ebou Dar. You will renew your friendship with her. And report to me who she sees, where she goes, what she says. Everything."

Bethamin clamped her jaws to keep from laughing hysterically. He was after Egeanin, not her. The Light be praised! The Light be praised in all its infinite mercy! She had only wanted to know if the woman still lived, if she had to take precautions. Egeanin had freed her once, yet in the ten years Bethamin had known her before that, she had been a model of duty. It had always seemed possible she would repent that one aberration no matter the cost to herself, but, wonder of wonders, she had not. And the Seeker was after her, not . . . ! Possibilities reared up in front of her, certainties, and she no longer wanted to laugh. Instead, she licked her lips.

"How . . . ? How can I renew our friendship?" It had never been friendship anyway, merely acquaintance, but it was too late to say that now. "You tell me she's been raised to the Blood. Any overture must come from her." Fear emboldened her. And panicked her as it had at Falme. "Why do you need me to be your Listener? You can take her for questioning any time you decide to." She bit the inside of her cheek to still her tongue. Light, she wanted nothing less than she wanted him to do that. Seekers were the secret hand of the Empress, might she live forever; in the Empress's name, he could put even Suroth to the question, or Tuon herself. True, he would die horribly if it turned out he had been in error, but the risk was small with Egeanin. She was only of the low Blood. If he put Egeanin to the question. . . .

And Egeanin did not flee because of her friendship with Bethamin. She freed Bethamin and then later fled because of her friendship with Elayne and Nynaeve and her desire to understand:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 51 - Revelations in Tanchico

"That was never my intention," Egeanin said stiffly. "All I ever wanted from you was to learn about Aes Sedai. I..." For the first time she seemed hesitant, unsure of herself. Compressing her lips, she looked from Nynaeve to Elayne and shook her head. "You are not as I was taught. The Light be upon me, I... like you."

"You like us." Nynaeve made it sound a crime. "That answers none of my questions."

Egeanin hesitated again, then held her head up, defying them to do their worst. "Sul'dam were left behind at Falme. Some deserted after the disaster. A few of us were sent to bring them back. I only found one, but I discovered that an a'dam would hold her." Seeing Nynaeve's fists tighten, she quickly added, "I let her go last night. I will pay dearly if that is ever discovered, but after talking with you, I could not..." Grimacing, she shook her head. "That is why I stayed with you after Elayne revealed herself. I knew Bethamin was a sul'dam. To discover the a'dam held her, that she could... I had to know, to understand, about women who could channel." She took a deep breath. "What do you mean to do with me?" Her hands, folded on the table, did not tremble.

All that being said, I have not ruled out Egeanin as the Seanchan woman in the dream. There are some points in her favor. I'm out of time right now, though, so I'll perhaps try to respond further tomorrow...