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Azure Skeith
11-06-2009, 11:15 PM
I've been looking over the other threads and noticed a few people have mentioned this, but never really discussed it, and I've been wondering about it since finishing the book, so I decided to start this. If there is an older thread where the purpose was warped for a while to talk about this, I apologize.


It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, streching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. ...

Rand's crazy epiphany can be taken as two ways just glancing at it.

1) He now has access to memories of his past lives, all of them, giving him Birgette-esque retention.

2) Rand saw clearly for that one split second and has access to only AoL and his own current life's memories.

The people I've seen mention this in other threads seem to believe more along the lines of the first option, whether or not he would lose those memories over time just as Birgette has would remain to be seen.

When I look at it however, I can't be so sure. The "Within that moment..." seems to place a great time restraint on those memories. It could be taken as merely the time lapse for the epiphany, but I'm not sure.

Anyone else's thoughts on this matter?

Terez
11-06-2009, 11:30 PM
I find it hard to believe that he'll retain access to all of those memories while incarnate. Birgitte's loss of memories seems to imply that the incarnate body can only handle so much. It's impossible to say from the context, though. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm sure he'll at least retain his Lews Therin memories, but beyond that, I have no idea.

Belazamon
11-06-2009, 11:31 PM
Anyone else's thoughts on this matter?
I lean towards the second one, personally.

Neopets fan?

Tamyrlin
11-06-2009, 11:46 PM
It's like the Pattern waited for this moment to give him those memories and such to prep him for the final battle. Similar to Rand's fight with Ishamael in the sky, I wonder if this was another Pattern Level Event planned by Jordan.

Azure Skeith
11-06-2009, 11:52 PM
I lean towards the second one, personally.

Same here, I just wanted to see others opinions as well though.

Neopets fan?

Nah, haha. I've gotten that a few times before though. Actually, its a culmination of my previous .hack// fanaticism.

Terez
11-06-2009, 11:55 PM
It's like the Pattern waited for this moment to give him those memories and such to prep him for the final battle. Similar to Rand's fight with Ishamael in the sky, I wonder if this was another Pattern Level Event planned by Jordan.
I doubt it, since there was an obvious mechanism to the integration. Also, I believe RJ said that the flashing of the sky battle over Saldaea and Ghealdan was a theWheeldidit, but not the sky battle itself.

FelixPax
11-06-2009, 11:55 PM
It's like the Pattern waited for this moment to give him those memories and such to prep him for the final battle. Similar to Rand's fight with Ishamael in the sky, I wonder if this was another Pattern Level Event planned by Jordan.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if Mat will suddenly gain his own past memories in ToM, in parallel to Rand's own experiences in tGS?? Specifically the song the seekers of the Tinkers have been trying to find for years and years?

Mat and Rand, both went to Rhuidean after all, and share to some degree that rite of passage together. Only Mat's luck seems to of prevented him from becoming an Aiel clan chief at the time.

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:01 AM
Rand knows the seed songs now that his memories are integrated.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 12:17 AM
Now I'm beginning to wonder if Mat will suddenly gain his own past memories in ToM, in parallel to Rand's own experiences in tGS?? Specifically the song the seekers of the Tinkers have been trying to find for years and years?

Mat and Rand, both went to Rhuidean after all, and share to some degree that rite of passage together. Only Mat's luck seems to of prevented him from becoming an Aiel clan chief at the time.
I don't think there is any possibility of Mat having enough Aiel ancestors for the Glass Columns to affect him at all. He could probably run back and forth through the columns all day without getting a single flashback to an ancestor's POV.

Mat ancestry is clearly Manetherin and ONLY Manatherin because of how inbred the Three Rivers is. Mat an Perrin both were born in Emond's Field of a lineage that had stayed in the Two Rivers since the fall of Manatherin -- IOW, No Aiel in their ancestry at all.

Rand could become a Clan Chief -- and Car'a'carn -- because his father was Aiel.

See the Aiel Prophecies about "Born of the Ancient Blood and raised by an Old Blood, not ours" (and a coresponding KC prophecy)

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 12:54 AM
What mechanism would have enabled Rand to access all of his lives as with the Heroes waiting in T'A'R, that isn't some Wheel/Pattern intervention?

And, no, I'm quite sure Rand's battle with Ishamael was a PLE.

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

That's what I refer to as a Pattern Level Event, but I guess "effect of the Wheel" works, just doesn't sound as cool. :)

Terez
11-07-2009, 12:58 AM
What mechanism would have enabled Rand to access all of his lives as with the Heroes waiting in T'A'R, that isn't some Wheel/Pattern intervention?
If you're just talking about that one moment, then okay. I thought you were talking about the integration.

And, no, I'm quite sure Rand's battle with Ishamael was a PLE.
k, I was remembering RJ's reasoning (which only really fits the flashes above Saldaea and Ghealdan).

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 01:01 AM
If you're just talking about that one moment, then okay. I thought you were talking about the integration.

Although, when you think about it, giving Rand this moment of awareness of all of his lives...does present an obvious way that the Wheel was weaving the Pattern to overcome the affects of the Taint...etc.

Terez
11-07-2009, 01:03 AM
Wat?

FelixPax
11-07-2009, 01:12 AM
I don't think there is any possibility of Mat having enough Aiel ancestors for the Glass Columns to affect him at all. He could probably run back and forth through the columns all day without getting a single flashback to an ancestor's POV.

So why and how would Moiraine be able to get a viewing from those very same Glass Columns?

Moiraine is not obviously of Aiel blood either, and yet it worked for her. So this theory seems to have a hole.

Mat ancestry is clearly Manetherin and ONLY Manatherin because of how inbred the Three Rivers is. Mat an Perrin both were born in Emond's Field of a lineage that had stayed in the Two Rivers since the fall of Manatherin -- IOW, No Aiel in their ancestry at all.

Rand could become a Clan Chief -- and Car'a'carn -- because his father was Aiel.

The Aiel and later Jenn Aiel (Tinkers) were originally spread across the lands. Only later did they go into the Waste or Three Folds Land, and built Rhuidean. The Aiel would indeed have distant blood relatives elsewhere across the Westlands and on the Sea Folk Islands.

I would not be surprised to learn that the Sea Folk are distant relatives of the Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Except that the Sea Folk's version of the Jenn Aiel would of been the Amayar on the islands with their Water Way.

Who's to say what happened to former Aiel outside the Sea Folk islands and Three Folds Lands? Did they intermarry and adopt their spouse's cultural customs, dropping their former Jenn Aiel customs in the process??

The Tinkers abandon their own sons & daughters if they take up other people's customs it seems, e.g. Aram. So their blood would live on, but unacknowledged.

jason wolfbrother
11-07-2009, 01:28 AM
Moiraine didn't go through the glass columns. that is for the 2nd trip the Wise Women take to Rhuidean.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"In Rhuidean," Amys said, "you will find three rings, arranged so." She drew three lines in the air, joining together in the middle. "Step through any one. You will see your future laid before you, again and again, in variation. They will not guide you wholly, as is best, for they will fade together as do stories heard long ago, yet you will remember enough to know some things that must be, for you, despised as they may be, and some that must not, cherished hopes that they are. This is the beginning of being called wise. Some women never return from the rings; perhaps they could not face the future. Some who survive the rings do not survive their second trip to Rhuidean, to the heart. You are not giving up a hard and dangerous life for a softer, but for a harder and more dangerous."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"Rand al'Thor." "Mat. Mat Cauthon." Amys nodded. "You, Rand al'Thor, must go into the heart of Rhuidean, to the very center. If you wish to go with him, Mat Cauthon, so be it, but know that most men who enter Rhuidean's heart do not come back, and some return mad. You may carry neither food nor water, in remembrance of our wanderings after the Breaking. You must go to Rhuidean unarmed, save with your hands and your own heart, to honor the Jenn. If you have weapons, place them on the ground before us. They will be here for you when you return. If you return."

The glass columns are at the heart of Rhuidean. That is where Aviendha is currently bound. Moiraine never entered them.

nameless
11-07-2009, 01:30 AM
Moraine didn't use the columns. She used the rings. That said, I don't think there's any reason to believe the columns only work for Aiel just because no one other than Aiel have ever been allowed to use them.

Terez
11-07-2009, 01:33 AM
Moraine didn't use the columns. She used the rings. That said, I don't think there's any reason to believe the columns only work for Aiel just because no one other than Aiel have ever been allowed to use them.
There is, actually:


Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue)



Q: Rhuarc indicates that an Aiel in Rhuidean sees the past through the eyes of one of his ancestors. Is this true for the women as well? What would a non-Aiel see, if anything?



RJ: Yes, a woman would also see through the eyes of her ancestors, at least in the “forest of crystal spires” ter’angreal, and she, too, would live the history of the Aiel, in effect. Someone who wasn’t Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art. Just for a reminder, women who are chosen out to be Wise Ones have to go to Rhuidean twice, the second time for the spires and the first for another ter’angreal, one that makes her see all of the possible paths her life could take all the way to their conclusion. She can’t possibly remember all of them, of course, but some things she will remember and know that it would be very bad for her to make that particular choice when it comes, or alternatively, very good. This is the ter’angreal that Moiraine went through.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 01:36 AM
So why and how would Moiraine be able to get a viewing from those very same Glass Columns?

It would be a very good trick if she got any ancestral memories from the Galss Columns Ter'angreal used for selecting Clan Chiefs and confirming Wise Ones since she went through the Rhuidean Three Arches ter'angreal used for testing Wise One Apprentices. The Rhuidean Three Arches Ter'angreal is not to be confused with the White Tower's Three Arches ter'angreal used for Accepted testing. They are similar in form but different in function.

As for Tinker ancestry in the Three Rivers and or Aiel Ancestry from as far back as the Breaking, it's not likely -- The Aiel and Two Rivers are established as as pure and insular genetic pools as it is possible for them to be. Pure and insular enough to be identifiable in Prophecy.

The Glass Columns are keyed specifically to the history of the Aiel and RJ confirmed that each candidates sees his/her own ancestors who were present at key points in the history of the Aiel. They did not show Rand any of his Andoran/Cairheinen lineage, although it showed the meeting between the proto-Aiel and proto-cairheinens -- Rand quite possibly had two ancestors at that meeting.

Terez
11-07-2009, 01:38 AM
How many Theorylanders does it take to debunk a Felix post? :D

jason wolfbrother
11-07-2009, 01:39 AM
only one. the rest of you are just too slow and didn't bother to read my reply ;) ;) :cool: :p

nameless
11-07-2009, 01:41 AM
interesting... so back in the Age of Legends someone built a ter'angreal that can differentiate between Aiel and non-Aiel. Making sure they kept their customs must have been really important to the Aes Sedai for them to go to all that trouble to keep them and only them in touch with their history. Adds kind of a tragic element to what happened to them, I guess.

Terez
11-07-2009, 01:45 AM
Actually, the ter'angreal was made well after the Breaking.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 01:59 AM
interesting... so back in the Age of Legends someone built a ter'angreal that can differentiate between Aiel and non-Aiel.

The Glass Columns ter'angreal probably wasn't built in the Age of Legends. It is too large to have been transported by horse drawn wagon(s) and wasn't used for several centuries after the Breaking.

You need to re-read TSR: Chapter 25 and 26. The first ancestor is Mandein, a young Sept Chief and the first to go to Rhuidean and the Glass Columns ter'angreal. I've forgotten exactly how many generations after the Sharaom exploded Mandein lived, but IIRC, it works out to about nearly 500 years -- long after the White Tower was founded.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 02:23 AM
What mechanism would have enabled Rand to access all of his lives as with the Heroes waiting in T'A'R, that isn't some Wheel/Pattern intervention?

I think a PLE would need to affect a greater area and a larger number of people. TAR with a lot of OP for a strong dreamer could have this effect I think.

interesting... so back in the Age of Legends someone built a ter'angreal that can differentiate between Aiel and non-Aiel

I could be wrong, but perhaps you're wondering how the glass columns could collect memories all the way back to the aol? If that's the case, the answer ib obvious : its a terangreal. It does magic.

Seeker
11-07-2009, 03:11 AM
I'd like to begin with a very simple question.

What is the purpose of writing a story with reincarnation if previous lives can't in some way affect the current one?

I've never believed in the idea that the WOT characters are separated from their past experiences, that there is anything between them and their previous memories. I believe that most (if not all of the characters) can access some of their previous memories. The only reason that they don't remember anything of their former lives is that none of them has ever tried.

Now, it will be extremely rare for any of the other characters to experience the kind of clarity that Rand and Birgitte have regarding their past lives. Each of them is a special case.

The other characters will remember their former lives differently (if they ever sit down and try, which will require more than just concentrating really hard. Extended periods of meditation may be involved here). But if they dug up those memories, the other characters will likely remember their former lives in terms of impressions, vague images, feelings of familiarity. A sense that "I've been here before."

They may recall a specific name, a specific face but they won't get a full chronology the way Rand does with Lews Therin.

And why do I think this?

As I've said above, what's the point of writing a story about reincarnation if one life can't affect the next?

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 10:11 AM
I'm theorizing that the Wheel was instrumental in the re-integration of the two personalities into one. In essence, the purpose of that PLE was to reintegrate the two personalities into one so Rand would be ready for the Last Battle.

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 10:14 AM
What affect this may have had in the world around Dragonmount that we may see in the next book, but no, I don't think a PLE has to have multiple witnesses to occur.

How else would someone get access to all of their lives, and understand it as though they died and had access to their Hero personality, if not through the Wheel?

Davian93
11-07-2009, 12:48 PM
How many Theorylanders does it take to debunk a Felix post? :D

I always love when someone makes an obvious false statement here on TL. The herd effort to correct the mistake is quite interesting.

I agree with Tam's theory on the PLE.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 01:09 PM
But if they dug up those memories, the other characters will likely remember their former lives in terms of impressions, vague images, feelings of familiarity. A sense that "I've been here before."

It's called Deja vu and it is one of the unexplained phenomena inthe Real World that the WOT cosmology explains.

Most of the main characters have shown some sign of having past-life mememories close to the surface -- Egwene feels she "almost understood" Mat whenhe started spouting the Old Tongue during his separation from the Ruby Dagger, for example.

Davian93
11-07-2009, 01:11 PM
It's called Deja vu and it is one of the unexplained phenomena inthe Real World that the WOT cosmology explains.

Most of the main characters have shown some sign of having past-life mememories close to the surface -- Egwene feels she "almost understood" Mat whenhe started spouting the Old Tongue during his separation from the Ruby Dagger, for example.

Well, she's got a bunch of Old Blood in her so its not really a surprise. It could also be that the Old Tongue is actually really similar to the modern language (like Latin and Italian) so most of the words are just similar sounding anyway.

Enigma
11-07-2009, 01:51 PM
I doubt if Rand has all his past memories for one simply reason. If he had access to that knowledge he would know how he sealed the Dark One away every time and we still have two books to fill.

4Alethinos
11-07-2009, 01:58 PM
Enigma, you are making the assumption that the Dragon soul is always the same. RJ said specifaclly that it is not the same and that it could even be a female soul.

Rand having LTT's memories about the 7 seals and their present failure will be enough to lead him to the correct solution.

"Patience works character."

Enigma
11-07-2009, 02:06 PM
RJ said that when Hawkwing met Rand at the end of TGH he called him LTT as that was the last name he had and it was convention among the heroes to use one's last incarnation's name.

I took that to mean that LTT/Rand or rather his soul was part of the club and had always been the Dragon, or at the very least has been the dragon for a very long time.

JSUCamel
11-07-2009, 02:20 PM
Enigma, you are making the assumption that the Dragon soul is always the same. RJ said specifaclly that it is not the same and that it could even be a female soul.

Rand having LTT's memories about the 7 seals and their present failure will be enough to lead him to the correct solution.

"Patience works character."


From various signings (paraphrased):

Reports from signings (paraphrased)


Female Dragon..NO when a female Hero is needed she is one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 04:31 PM
Faction: The Wheel Was Responsible for the Reintegration of Rand's Personalities

Faction Creed: We believe that Rand's Personality Re-integration in The Gathering Storm was an Effect of the Wheel (Pattern Level Event), in preparation for the Last Battle.

Thoughts?

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 05:27 PM
Depends on supporting evidence but does have a chance.

Terez
11-07-2009, 05:49 PM
Faction: The Wheel Was Responsible for the Reintegration of Rand's Personalities

Faction Creed: We believe that Rand's Personality Re-integration in The Gathering Storm was an Effect of the Wheel (Pattern Level Event), in preparation for the Last Battle.

Thoughts?
My thoughts: The Wheel is responsible for everything. I think you are trying to avoid the obvious mechanism for the re-integration with this faction.

greatwolf
11-07-2009, 06:21 PM
My thoughts: The Wheel is responsible for everything. I think you are trying to avoid the obvious mechanism for the re-integration with this faction.

Its clearly a very significant moment for the pattern and there seems to be quite a bit at play here.

Azure Skeith
11-07-2009, 06:25 PM
My thoughts: The Wheel is responsible for everything. I think you are trying to avoid the obvious mechanism for the re-integration with this faction.

Would you please clarify which 'obvious mechanism' to which you are referring in order to assist those of us who do not find this quite as intellectually intuitive as you do?

Terez
11-07-2009, 06:30 PM
Rand had to face his past and find a reason to live before his memories could be integrated. He's had access to Lews Therin's memories for several books now, but he's been suppressing them.

Me and Tam are discussing this in chat, though, and we're coming close to agreement - Rand's realization was necessary, but the moment where he knew all of his past lives seems unnatural to the point that the Wheel would have to be involved. It's still not clear, however, whether the Wheel's intervention was necessary for Lews Therin's memories, in particular, to be integrated. I don't think it was necessary, as he's been on the verge of integration all along, with the suppression/denial issues being pretty much the only reason why he didn't have access to all of Lews Therin's memories.

Tamyrlin
11-07-2009, 06:38 PM
~Terez and I just chatted, but I thought I'd clarify my thoughts~

While the Wheel weaves the Pattern, it does not get directly involved in everything, such as when it made the battle between Rand and Ishamael happen in the sky, viewable by all. It was a Pattern Level Event which does not happen all of the time, and marks events in which the Wheel sees fit to make something happen that would not have happened otherwise.

In Rand's case, certainly he was in an emotional state that was ready for change, change that could have been the destruction of the Pattern. Yes, Rand was prepared for this moment through everything that had happened to him up to this point. Thanks to meddling, and the voice(s) in his head, the responsibility, the bonds, everything probably played a small part in getting him up on to that mountain in that moment. However, just because he was prepared, does not mean he could have re-integrated with the second personality without the direct intervention of the Wheel. In fact, the Wheel's involvement suggests that it believed its involvement was necessary on that mountain in order to bring about the conclusion it wants.

Would this have helped Rand re-integrate a day before if he randomly received this knowledge and awareness from the Wheel? I'd say no, which is why the Wheel waited until this moment which it had a good idea was coming. However, I believe the same to be true about the re-integration: if Rand hadn't received direct intervention about his previous lives from the Wheel, he wouldn't have re-integrated as he needed to, to be ready for the Last Battle. At least, that's my theory.

"He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, streching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope." I doubt the Wheel would have gotten involved, if it believed that Rand could have done this on his own. He remembered lives stretching into infinity - a PLE for sure (to me).

I hope that makes more sense. (I think Terez and I disagree that Rand wouldn't have re-integrated on his own).

Davian93
11-07-2009, 08:37 PM
I dont think Rand will have continued access to those memories. I think it was a one-time thing to give him hope, peace, and the courage to finish his duty. He might remember the moment but I doubt he'll have continued encyclopedic access to all those lives.

Terez
11-07-2009, 08:41 PM
I think most of us agree on that.

Davian93
11-07-2009, 08:48 PM
I think most of us agree on that.

I wasn't sure. Some seemed to imply that he would have continued access. I simply don't think thats the case.

Weird Harold
11-07-2009, 10:54 PM
I dont think Rand will have continued access to those memories. I think it was a one-time thing to give him hope, peace, and the courage to finish his duty. He might remember the moment but I doubt he'll have continued encyclopedic access to all those lives.
That sounds abit like what happens to Wise One Apprentices in the Ruidean Arches ter'angreal. The see all possible futures while they're in the ter'angreal, but forget all but the most vivid possibilities when they leave.

Being most recent, LTT's memories would seem likely to be the most vivid and those memories were accessible before the reintegration, so they would be most likely to remain acessible. Perhaps particularly vivid memories from other past lives will remain accessible also, but I doubt they will stand out in any particular way from LTT's or Rand's memories.

Tree Brother
11-08-2009, 12:14 PM
I'd like to begin with a very simple question.

What is the purpose of writing a story with reincarnation if previous lives can't in some way affect the current one?


I would say it is because this is the Wheel of Time. If time is circular, it makes sense that people would be too :)

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 12:03 PM
~Terez and I just chatted, but I thought I'd clarify my thoughts~

While the Wheel weaves the Pattern, it does not get directly involved in everything, such as when it made the battle between Rand and Ishamael happen in the sky, viewable by all. It was a Pattern Level Event which does not happen all of the time, and marks events in which the Wheel sees fit to make something happen that would not have happened otherwise.

In Rand's case, certainly he was in an emotional state that was ready for change, change that could have been the destruction of the Pattern. Yes, Rand was prepared for this moment through everything that had happened to him up to this point. Thanks to meddling, and the voice(s) in his head, the responsibility, the bonds, everything probably played a small part in getting him up on to that mountain in that moment. However, just because he was prepared, does not mean he could have re-integrated with the second personality without the direct intervention of the Wheel. In fact, the Wheel's involvement suggests that it believed its involvement was necessary on that mountain in order to bring about the conclusion it wants.

Would this have helped Rand re-integrate a day before if he randomly received this knowledge and awareness from the Wheel? I'd say no, which is why the Wheel waited until this moment which it had a good idea was coming. However, I believe the same to be true about the re-integration: if Rand hadn't received direct intervention about his previous lives from the Wheel, he wouldn't have re-integrated as he needed to, to be ready for the Last Battle. At least, that's my theory.

"He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, streching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope." I doubt the Wheel would have gotten involved, if it believed that Rand could have done this on his own. He remembered lives stretching into infinity - a PLE for sure (to me).

I hope that makes more sense. (I think Terez and I disagree that Rand wouldn't have re-integrated on his own).

I guess I don't get why the "Wheel" needs to be involved at all with this. Is it only the part where he suddenly has access to all his memories? It seems like a better explanation for that might have something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod and Hero memory than with random deus ex machina event.

There were other things at play, not the least of which was Rand accessing more of the One Power than any human probably ever had. He was essentially communing with the power than turns the Wheel of Time, so it wouldn't be surprising if that had some weird effects. I actually thing it would be much more effective from a literary standpoint if this was all on Rand. It was his choice, his discovery to make, because without that discovery the world is doomed. Indeed, in this above all things, the Wheel would not get involved. Only the Chosen One can do what must be done--if he will.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 12:12 PM
There were other things at play, not the least of which was Rand accessing more of the One Power than any human probably ever had. He was essentially communing with the power than turns the Wheel of Time, so it wouldn't be surprising if that had some weird effects. I actually thing it would be much more effective from a literary standpoint if this was all on Rand. It was his choice, his discovery to make, because without that discovery the world is doomed. Indeed, in this above all things, the Wheel would not get involved. Only the Chosen One can do what must be done--if he will.

The Wheel wills. The Wheel weaves. The Creator might not get involved, but the Wheel has directly involved itself in key moments in the series when it needed something that Rand could not do on his own.

some weird effects

I don't see why we'd pin it on a weird effect, and not on the mechanism that Jordan has already used a few times to force outcomes it needs. The Wheel is a reality and has the ability to give Rand's thread access to that information.

Terez
11-09-2009, 01:27 PM
I guess I don't get why the "Wheel" needs to be involved at all with this. Well, now you're just stealing the argument I used against you on barrier degradation. You could at least try to be original.

Seeker
11-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Faction: The Wheel Was Responsible for the Reintegration of Rand's Personalities

Faction Creed: We believe that Rand's Personality Re-integration in The Gathering Storm was an Effect of the Wheel (Pattern Level Event), in preparation for the Last Battle.

Thoughts?

No!
Just No!

The Wheel did not fix Rand's insanity. The pattern did not fix Rand's Insanity, RAND fixed Rand's insanity. Rand did it all by himself.

When you credit the Wheel for Rand's recovery, you reduce his victory to deus ex machina. And when you invoke deus ex machina on that level, you one of the most heartfelt - one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire series - of its very soul

You also ignore all of the themes and subtexts that RJ and Brandon worked to set up in this book. The theme of the last five chapters is all about choice. Think about all the ways this is reinforced for us.

Cadsuane an Min assure us that Rand CAN lose.

Tam explains to Rand that even ta'veren get to choose. They get to choose what they fight for, and why.

Rand goes on a deep, soul-searching journey to find meaning in this world and he discovers that perhaps rebirth can be viewed as a second chance, a chance to get it right this time!

All of these conversations speak of choice, of the individual's ability to influence his environment. Plus, I can pull you quotes from the old books about this very same theme. Does anyone remember "Only the chosen one can do what must be done, *if he will.*"

Rand is not just a mechanism for the pattern to work its will. He is a living, breathing, dynamic PERSON. When you attribute his victories to the will of the pattern, you rob them of the very thing that makes them heroic. If Rand can't lose, then the story sucks!

If you want logic, then answer me this. If the pattern had the power to fix Rand's madness, then why did it let him become mad in the first place?

Kind of convenient that it should heal him at the eleventh hour, no?

No. The pattern did not fix Rand. Rand fixed himself.

Now, one caveat. If by "pattern-level event" you mean simply that Rand's recovery was an event profound enough to influence the entire pattern, but that Rand alone is to credit for it, then, yes, I agree. But if that's what you mean, you need to change the wording of your faction creed.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 02:24 PM
When you credit the Wheel for Rand's recovery, you reduce his victory to deus ex machina. And when you invoke deus ex machina on that level, you one of the most heartfelt - one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire series - of its very soul

Or souls...depending on one's point of view.

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Well, now you're just stealing the argument I used against you on barrier degradation. You could at least try to be original.
LOL wut?

Terez
11-09-2009, 02:36 PM
LOL wut?
haha, you argued theWheeldidit for how Rand got Lews Therin's memories.

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 03:15 PM
haha, you argued theWheeldidit for how Rand got Lews Therin's memories.
Not in the same way as Tam is describing, though, I don't think. It wasn't a single moment in time where the Wheel intervened and plugged in the memories into his head, it was part of the overall Pattern of Rand being the special Chosen One.

A "PLE" is hardly what I was arguing for, and if that's how it was construed than I retract it.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 04:38 PM
This world is WOVEN. It isn't Rand choosing everything. There is a small amount of free choice for the most "choice" of souls, such as that of the Dragon. It's programmed, it's repetive, that allows for small variations Age after Age. Rand as Ta'veren can make things happen that weren't planned for, just as the Wheel through the Pattern can force Rand down roads he wasn't planning on following. Now, I'm not saying that Rand didn't make this decision, but to say that the re-integration would have occurred without the infinite knowledge of his previous lives...it stretches credulity.

Now I'm happy to argue the nature of that moment, as in, how it came about. Crispin suggests that maybe it had something to do with the One Power...but we've never seen such an incident occur before, even as Rand removed the Taint, why should we conclude that the quantity of One Power somehow gave him access to his Hero personality this time? Instead, RJ gives us a mechanism...literally woven into his mythology, that the Wheel can and does, and has in this series, become involved forcibly to get an outcome it desires. As I said, what I believe what was apparently the Wheel's direct intervention likely wouldn't have worked prior to this moment; instead, at this moment, everything leading up to it, Rand was ready for it, but I don't believe without the access to that information, that Rand comes out re-integrated.

Azure Skeith
11-09-2009, 06:03 PM
The Gathering Storm
Chapter 50: Veins of Gold

"Why?" Rand thought with wonder. "Because each time we live, we get to love again."

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything.

...

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. "If I live again, then she might as well!"

He already figured out the the fact that when he lives again, he can love again without the help of his lifetimes of memories. The next, or eventually next, logical step to that pattern of thought is that others can/will live again and he can attempt to win completely and utterly each time he lives again.

I'm not going against your PLE theory here, it has evidence that implies it, I just don't want to believe it. That would seem... too easy... if at any moment existence itself can step in and push people (or just a person) around to get what it wants. Even if only when they are prepped for it.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 06:29 PM
He already figured out the the fact that when he lives again, he can love again without the help of his lifetimes of memories. The next, or eventually next, logical step to that pattern of thought is that others can/will live again and he can attempt to win completely and utterly each time he lives again.

I'm not going against your PLE theory here, it has evidence that implies it, I just don't want to believe it. That would seem... too easy... if at any moment existence itself can step in and push people (or just a person) around to get what it wants. Even if only when they are prepped for it.
I don't know what to say other than RJ built it this way. Is each Age another soul's second chance? Or third chance? A chance love and live and learn? It's a world of souls woven. The weaving can't be ignored. RJ's comments on the subject can't be ignored. Free will exists but, if it wasn't a woven world, these Ages wouldn't keep repeating themselves with small variation.

The idea of loving again, is not complete in Rand's mind until he sees all of his lives and "remembered love, peace, joy, and hope. Within that moment, suddenly something occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!"

Rand wanted an answer, but that doesn't mean he would have believed it, or accepted it without proof. The Wheel provided that proof. Why is that so bothersome?

After all, the Wheel chose when to place the Dragon's soul and where to place it...shouldn't that type of control bother you too?

Azure Skeith
11-09-2009, 11:12 PM
Rand wanted an answer, but that doesn't mean he would have believed it, or accepted it without proof.
I don't see that at all. I believe, as I said in my earlier post, that he would have came to the same conclusion eventually by following the logical path down that thought process.

The Wheel provided that proof. Why is that so bothersome?

I don't like the idea that some overwhelming force can jump in and push people along the path it wants. Especially when it might mess with peoples heads, I wouldn't want that to happen to me, and as such, I don't really like it as a plot device in a book.

After all, the Wheel chose when to place the Dragon's soul and where to place it...shouldn't that type of control bother you too?

It does.

Tercel
11-09-2009, 11:34 PM
Crispin suggests that maybe it had something to do with the One Power...but we've never seen such an incident occur before, even as Rand removed the Taint, why should we conclude that the quantity of One Power somehow gave him access to his Hero personality this time?Rand was dangerously over-drawing on the Power at the time, drawing more than the safe limits of the Choedan Kal... so he was drawing more Power directly than he had when cleansing the source. Awareness of past lives could well be a side-effect of imminent death through Power overdose - Rand was able to escape from power-overdose death by having the CK rather than himself die.

I was uncertain when I read the passage and am still uncertain why Rand suddenly had access to 1000s of past life memories. (Though to answer the OP, I think it was temporary access not permanent access he was granted... although either way, you'd think he now knows exactly how to defeat the DO wouldn't you?)

Asking BS whether it was the Creator, the Wheel or the Power or something else that gave Rand memories of a 1000 lives might be worthwhile.

Sodas
11-09-2009, 11:37 PM
Rand was dangerously over-drawing on the Power at the time, drawing more than the safe limits of the Choedan Kal... so he was drawing more Power directly than he had when cleansing the source. Awareness of past lives could well be a side-effect of imminent death through Power overdose - Rand was able to escape from power-overdose death by having the CK rather than himself die.

I was uncertain when I read the passage and am still uncertain why Rand suddenly had access to 1000s of past life memories. (Though to answer the OP, I think it was temporary access not permanent access he was granted... although either way, you'd think he now knows exactly how to defeat the DO wouldn't you?)

Asking BS whether it was the Creator, the Wheel or the Power or something else that gave Rand memories of a 1000 lives might be worthwhile.

He was gripping the pattern through the CK at that moment, intending on destroying it.

So no, I don't agree it was a PLE.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 11:49 PM
I don't see that at all. I believe, as I said in my earlier post, that he would have came to the same conclusion eventually by following the logical path down that thought process.
What logical path? He had no frame of reference. He is on the literal edge of sanity. He wants it all to end. The only clarity of purpose, or pathway was death. Then he hears LTT give him a possible answer, but he didn't reintegrate. He didn't say, oh, awesome thanks, I'm done, phew. What information did Rand al'Thor have to prove that statement, other than the understanding gained by seeing/feeling/comprehending the nature of his soul in the infinite Turnings of the Wheel? It was the cold hard logical pathway that brought him to that mountain top, it's not what got him down.

I don't like the idea that some overwhelming force can jump in and push people along the path it wants. Especially when it might mess with peoples heads, I wouldn't want that to happen to me, and as such, I don't really like it as a plot device in a book.
I can understand not liking an element of the books like this...such as the DO's ability to Transmigrate. However, not liking the structure of a world and not accepting the rules created by that structure, are two different things. The Wheel can't be ignored as an obvious possibility in this case.

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 12:09 AM
The Pattern he was supposedly "gripping" would be the Pattern woven of this Turning. He wouldn't have been gripping the entire Wheel and all Patterns "in his hands".

And you still haven't proposed any known mechanism by which he'd have access to that information. Why would supposedly "gripping" one Age Lace give you access to your memories for all Age Laces?

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 12:14 AM
Rand was dangerously over-drawing on the Power at the time, drawing more than the safe limits of the Choedan Kal... so he was drawing more Power directly than he had when cleansing the source. Awareness of past lives could well be a side-effect of imminent death through Power overdose - Rand was able to escape from power-overdose death by having the CK rather than himself die.
It could be some unknown side-effect, but why make up some side effect, when the well known and used explanation is already there?


Asking BS whether it was the Creator, the Wheel or the Power or something else that gave Rand memories of a 1000 lives might be worthwhile.

I agree - I don't mind seeing this theory come and go now versus later. I'll see what I can do.

Tercel
11-10-2009, 01:16 AM
Tam,

Having mulled over the "the wheel diddit" explanation, I'm feeling a bit happier about that as an explanation.

RJ likened the Wheel to a advanced computer program written by the Creator to manage the world/pattern.

Rand is the Hero chosen by the Wheel/Creator to fight the Dark One and stop the DO destroying the world/pattern. Here we have a situation where Rand himself about to destroy the world.

It's really priority #1 for the Wheel that this not happen. So it seems "fair enough" that the Wheel should intervene at this point.

What Rand needs in his situation is an understanding of why he shouldn't destroy the Pattern, why it is all worth it. The Wheel can give that to him: It can show to Rand the entire Pattern.

The way I read the passage, it showed Rand not only glimpses of 1000s of Rand's past lives, but also the world as it currently is. ("He saw the entire world in his mind's eye.") Since the Wheel governs the reincarnation of souls and presumably is responsible for blocking out memories of their previous lives, it seems quite within the power of the Wheel to release those memories to Rand and also to show him the current state of the world/pattern as it is at the present moment.

So, I suppose I'm a convert to the-wheel-did-it.

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 01:35 AM
The way I read the passage, it showed Rand not only glimpses of 1000s of Rand's past lives, but also the world as it currently is. ("He saw the entire world in his mind's eye.") Since the Wheel governs the reincarnation of souls and presumably is responsible for blocking out memories of their previous lives, it seems quite within the power of the Wheel to release those memories to Rand and also to show him the current state of the world/pattern as it is at the present moment.

I agree with your analysis. If ever there was a moment when the Wheel would/should get involved, this would be it.

Now, I need to rewrite the faction and creed, to be more along the lines of this discussion.

Sodas
11-10-2009, 01:53 AM
The Pattern he was supposedly "gripping" would be the Pattern woven of this Turning. He wouldn't have been gripping the entire Wheel and all Patterns "in his hands".

And you still haven't proposed any known mechanism by which he'd have access to that information. Why would supposedly "gripping" one Age Lace give you access to your memories for all Age Laces?

It didn't. Rand was just imagining those lives in his mind's eye. It was an illusion. It wasn't the reintegration moment or a PLE.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 05:49 AM
Perhaps the coat that he got from the Tinkers was a ter'angreal, made specifically for undoing the effects of Callandor?

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 10:41 AM
It didn't. Rand was just imagining those lives in his mind's eye. It was an illusion. It wasn't the reintegration moment or a PLE.

Considering RJ's world and what we know of Birgitte and all of the souls of this world, and the Wheel, I don't think your illusion option is very likely, but it's one option.

lurk
11-10-2009, 11:00 AM
If we consider the reintegration of the meories a PLE than maybe we should consider the erecting fo dragonmount by LTT also a PLE. Done to create a landmark environment for Rand to remember why LTT erected dragonmount in the first place en why it is a good thing that he can remedie his earlier mistakes

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 11:36 AM
If we consider the reintegration of the meories a PLE than maybe we should consider the erecting fo dragonmount by LTT also a PLE. Done to create a landmark environment for Rand to remember why LTT erected dragonmount in the first place en why it is a good thing that he can remedie his earlier mistakes

I don't consider (although my initial faction and creed pointed to such) that the re-integration was the Wheel. I'm saying that the Wheel's intervention with Rand's memories and vision was the Wheel's way of making the re-integration probable, tipping Rand over that precipice.

As to Dragonmount, it's an interesting idea that the Wheel got involved in the creation of Dragonmount - considering its importance in prophecy, I wouldn't be surprised.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 11:46 AM
It could be some unknown side-effect, but why make up some side effect, when the well known and used explanation is already there?
Well, duh. Because we don't like that explanation--it's lame and cheap. I'd prefer Construct theory to a PLE, honestly.

And I'm sorry I haven't put forth a logical alternative explanation. I don't have the theory well enough developed because I just don't have enough information. But if I were to summarize some thoughts on a napking, it would go something like this...


~unfolds napkin~

Theory: The One Power (or at least the Spirit power) is accessible to humans via Tel'aran'rhiod.

Evidence:

-The soul is at least partially responsible for touching the True Source, not just the body (a channeling soul is always a channeling soul).
-The souls of Heroes and wolves (at least) go to Tel'aran'rhiod after death.
-When asleep, humans can only channel spirit.
-Spirit is the only one of the Five Powers distributed equally between men and women.
-In Ogier stedding, the One Power is not accessible. Neither can one enter a stedding through Tel'aran'rhiod.
-Entering Tel'aran'rhiod too strongly, or in the flesh, are both dangerous.
-Rand remarked that the Lews Therin voice was absent in Tel'aran'rhiod when he battled Rahvin, and when he enjoyed the rat fire with Moridin.

Supposition:
-When Rand enters Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, he loses his earthly anchor and is in danger of bypassing the normal death-Hero-rebirth cycle. This is also possibly why he had to fight off the urge to turn in to Lews Therin during the battle with Ravhin (contentious, I know).

Based on that, I believe it's possible that Rand, by holding so much of the One Power in his body, actually accessed Tel'aran'rhiod and his bank of Hero soul memories. The One Power links him to Tel'aran'rhiod already, as it does every channeler. He simply amplified that link a million-fold.

I know this has holes, but I just did all this from memory over about 15 minutes.

Sodas
11-10-2009, 12:05 PM
Considering RJ's world and what we know of Birgitte and all of the souls of this world, and makes the Wheel,

Right, but how certain are you that Rand really was turning into a Hero at that moment? He didn't die. He wasn't in T'A'R.

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 12:54 PM
Right, but how certain are you that Rand really was turning into a Hero at that moment? He didn't die. He wasn't in T'A'R.

If Rand had been in T'A'R, then I could see a "need", mixed with one power, mixed with T'A'R...and somehow that made it possible. Since we have no reason to believe he was in T'A'R, to get that information would require direct intervention, in my opinion. Otherwise, you'd have to believe something like the illusion option you brought up, or some overdose effect as was proposed. I just happen to think that the PLE makes the most sense in this instance.

Terez
11-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Perhaps using that much Power completely eradicated his remaining barriers? Of course, it would have to be combined with his acceptance of Lews Therin's memories to make sense, but it works.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 12:57 PM
Or maybe that's what a Champion can see the whole time?
It would explain why Ishamael/Moridin was driven completely nuts. Would be interesting to see how Rand handles continued omniscience. :p

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Well, duh. Because we don't like that explanation--it's lame and cheap. I'd prefer Construct theory to a PLE, honestly.
It's only lame and cheap in a world that isn't pre-planned and forcibly woven, although calling the structure of Jordan's world lame and cheap that it allows such things as the PLE, that I would understand.

Supposition:
-When Rand enters Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, he loses his earthly anchor and is in danger of bypassing the normal death-Hero-rebirth cycle. This is also possibly why he had to fight off the urge to turn in to Lews Therin during the battle with Ravhin (contentious, I know).

Based on that, I believe it's possible that Rand, by holding so much of the One Power in his body, actually accessed Tel'aran'rhiod and his bank of Hero soul memories. The One Power links him to Tel'aran'rhiod already, as it does every channeler. He simply amplified that link a million-fold.
I like the T'A'R option. I'd say it is the second most likely option we have to the PLE, and definitely worth asking Brandon.

If he was in T'A'R, the PLE would likely be unnecessary. If not in T'A'R though, I don't see any other likelihood that holds water.

Sodas
11-10-2009, 01:17 PM
If Rand had been in T'A'R, then I could see a "need", mixed with one power, mixed with T'A'R...and somehow that made it possible. Since we have no reason to believe he was in T'A'R, to get that information would require direct intervention, in my opinion. Otherwise, you'd have to believe something like the illusion option you brought up, or some overdose effect as was proposed. I just happen to think that the PLE makes the most sense in this instance.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't in TAR. When he opens his eyes, he's looking out at the normal world. The scene doesn't fit TAR at all.

Nor do I neccesarily believe in PLE's. I know you mentioned the fight in the sky between Rand and Moridin, but I had already thought of that as an effect of the Horn. So where should I find this history of PLE's if I don't believe that was one?

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 01:43 PM
As for the PLE idea, please explain to me again an instance of a PLE that happened before. I know you mentioned the fight in the sky between Rand and Moridin, but I had already thought of that as an effect of the Horn. So where should I find this history of PLE's if I don't believe that was one?

At DragonCon '05, that question was asked, because I think it was wondered how that occurred, as in was it an affect of the OP or the Creator (and I think in the past I have wondered if it was T'A'R related). I'll quote it again:

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

What the Wheel wants, the Wheel often gets, even when it has to get involved directly.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 02:24 PM
It's only lame and cheap in a world that isn't pre-planned and forcibly woven, although calling the structure of Jordan's world lame and cheap that it allows such things as the PLE, that I would understand.
It's not that pre-planning is itself cheap, it's that it cheapens Rand's clarity of vision and personal transformation at that moment. To use a dangerous analogy, what if Jesus, after asking why God had forsaken him, heard a whisper in his ear, "Don't worry, you'll be back in three days my son." Doesn't that cheapen his sacrifice?

At moments of personal crisis, to have the Pattern or Wheel or God intervene is lame.

I like the T'A'R option. I'd say it is the second most likely option we have to the PLE, and definitely worth asking Brandon.

If he was in T'A'R, the PLE would likely be unnecessary. If not in T'A'R though, I don't see any other likelihood that holds water.
Well that was kind of my whole point--he has to access the OP through T'A'R, and drawing that much meant he could access the properties of T'A'R without going there. It's a leap, I understand.

Terez
11-10-2009, 02:30 PM
Not in the same way as Tam is describing, though, I don't think. It wasn't a single moment in time where the Wheel intervened and plugged in the memories into his head, it was part of the overall Pattern of Rand being the special Chosen One.

A "PLE" is hardly what I was arguing for, and if that's how it was construed than I retract it. Well, the arguments I made against you at the time basically went like this:

The Wheel is responsible for everything. But usually there is some sort of mechanism for how things happen (barrier degradation being an example, in the case of how Rand got Lews Therin's memories).

And I am pretty sure that you argued in return that you saw no need for there to be a mechanism other than the Wheel wanting Rand to have Lews Therin's memories.

Sodas
11-10-2009, 02:32 PM
At DragonCon '05, that question was asked, because I think it was wondered how that occurred, as in was it an affect of the OP or the Creator (and I think in the past I have wondered if it was T'A'R related). I'll quote it again:

What the Wheel wants, the Wheel often gets, even when it has to get involved directly.

That makes sense. I still don't think it was a PLE at that moment, because I think it was just Rand imagining the sequence.

But I do think it's possible that a PLE occured, and probably for the same reasons that the PLE at falme happened as well. The pattern needed only one true Dragon. At Dragonmount, it needed Rand to have all the advantage of his prior incarnation, so it merged LTT and Rand, effectively creating one true Dragon.

Tamyrlin
11-10-2009, 02:40 PM
It's not that pre-planning is itself cheap, it's that it cheapens Rand's clarity of vision and personal transformation at that moment. To use a dangerous analogy, what if Jesus, after asking why God had forsaken him, heard a whisper in his ear, "Don't worry, you'll be back in three days my son." Doesn't that cheapen his sacrifice?

At moments of personal crisis, to have the Pattern or Wheel or God intervene is lame.

I don't think that cheapens his sacrifice whatsoever, because you still have to believe the voice and believe what it is telling you and believe that it is not yourself or that you are crazy. God intervenes throughout Christ's life and iirc, sends an angel to him while he suffers in Gethsemane to comfort him.

Plus, I see this PLE like I would a religious vision, which I don't think cheapens the experience at all. Why is the OP as the causing agent any less cheap than the Wheel?

Well that was kind of my whole point--he has to access the OP through T'A'R, and drawing that much meant he could access the properties of T'A'R without going there. It's a leap, I understand.

We agree, it's a leap - but like I said, T'A'R is believable.